3 Aug
1998
3 Aug
'98
2:52 a.m.
Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> wrote:
While I disagree with Michael's idea of total
world domination by Vaxen
:-), I believe such a society will be composed of a multitude of
different beliefs, ideas, sub-goals and drives. So please bear this in
mind when mailing to the mailing list!!!
Oh, I'm not saying that VAXen should dominate the mailing list or the
society, I'm simply saying that my project is to turn them from
"retrocomputing" into a fully competitive UNIX platform.
My main sub-goal is to provide a home for the PDP-11
stuff. I don't yet
have the disk space for all the other Unix platforms.
Keep in mind, though, that the UNIX(R) mainstream is PDP-11 _AND_ VAX.
Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which
caters for the
preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present.
I nominate the name The Unix Society
and
Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society'
as a name? I'm avoiding
using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective.
I personally think it's a very bad idea to extend the society to cover
freebies. Let's keep it limited to software that requires an SCO or
equivalent license. Why? Because otherwise it loses its identity. You can't
cover all UNIX and "Unix" in the world. Huge organizations like USENIX
already exist for this purpose. I believe the purpose of the society should
be to provide a home for the homeless. Here is what I mean by that. People
using "free Unices" already have scores of mailing lists and newsgroups
available to them. The only ones who are always left out are the poor
patriots of True Licensed UNIX(R). So far PUPS has been the only possible
home for them.
Why not have a Proper UNIX(R) Patriot Society which will do the same
thing PUPS does now (provide a central clearinghouse for all licensed
UNIX(R), keep the central database of SCO license holders, discuss
licensing issues), but without restricting it to PDP-11s or to mere
preservation? I don't think we need a huge society with chapters and
subchapters to cover every possible use of every possible OS. People who
want to use a particular OS in a particular way should have their own
mailing lists to discuss really specific issues like hardware, etc. That's
what I will do for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus when it actually sees the light of
day. (For now it has a closed consortium. My experience has been that in
such early stages of development keeping discussions on a public list leads
to nothing except accusations of "vaporware" and flame wars.) PUPS should
be a central clearinghouse for licensed UNIX(R), nothing more. Its scope
should be exactly equal to the scope of the SCO license.
Just my two bits.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu
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From "David C. Jenner"
<djenner(a)halcyon.com> Mon Aug 3 11:28:56 1998
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Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 18:28:56 -0700
From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com>
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Subject: Re: The Unix Society
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I think he has a point here:
Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO
(and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers. In fact,
an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors
(like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license.
If this is the case, the "Preservation" part of PUPS is OK, since
what we are trying to do is preserve the use of this strain of
system software.
As to the first P, if not PDP(-11), then what it should refer to
is the original strain of Unix--the Primordial Unix. Hence:
Primordial Unix Preservation Society.
(I really don't want to change my "pups" email alias!)
Dave
Michael Sokolov wrote:
Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> wrote:
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While I disagree with Michael's idea of
total world domination by Vaxen
:-), I believe such a society will be composed of a multitude of
different beliefs, ideas, sub-goals and drives. So please bear this in
mind when mailing to the mailing list!!!
Oh, I'm not saying that VAXen should dominate the mailing list or the
society, I'm simply saying that my project is to turn them from
"retrocomputing" into a fully competitive UNIX platform.
My main sub-goal is to provide a home for the
PDP-11 stuff. I don't yet
have the disk space for all the other Unix platforms.
Keep in mind, though, that the UNIX(R) mainstream is PDP-11 _AND_ VAX.
Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group
which caters for the
preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present.
I nominate the name The Unix Society
and
Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix
Society' as a name? I'm avoiding
using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective.
I personally think it's a very bad idea to extend the society to cover
freebies. Let's keep it limited to software that requires an SCO or
equivalent license. Why? Because otherwise it loses its identity. You can't
cover all UNIX and "Unix" in the world. Huge organizations like USENIX
already exist for this purpose. I believe the purpose of the society should
be to provide a home for the homeless. Here is what I mean by that. People
using "free Unices" already have scores of mailing lists and newsgroups
available to them. The only ones who are always left out are the poor
patriots of True Licensed UNIX(R). So far PUPS has been the only possible
home for them.
Why not have a Proper UNIX(R) Patriot Society which will do the same
thing PUPS does now (provide a central clearinghouse for all licensed
UNIX(R), keep the central database of SCO license holders, discuss
licensing issues), but without restricting it to PDP-11s or to mere
preservation? I don't think we need a huge society with chapters and
subchapters to cover every possible use of every possible OS. People who
want to use a particular OS in a particular way should have their own
mailing lists to discuss really specific issues like hardware, etc. That's
what I will do for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus when it actually sees the light of
day. (For now it has a closed consortium. My experience has been that in
such early stages of development keeping discussions on a public list leads
to nothing except accusations of "vaporware" and flame wars.) PUPS should
be a central clearinghouse for licensed UNIX(R), nothing more. Its scope
should be exactly equal to the scope of the SCO license.
Just my two bits.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Aug 3
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From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
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Subject: Re: The Unix Society
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On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 18:28:56 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote:
I think he has a point here:
Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO
(and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers. In fact,
an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors
(like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license.
That's rather conservative, isn't it? If we had done that previously,
there would never now have been an SCO licence for 16 bit UNIX. If we
do it now, there will never be a license for 32 bit UNIX.
Greg
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From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon
Aug 3 11:50:42 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199808030150.LAA13307(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: The Unix Heritage Society
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:50:42 +1000 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <19980803111338.W21892(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug
3, 98 11:13:38 am"
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In article by Greg Lehey:
On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 18:28:56 -0700, David C.
Jenner wrote:
Keep it to systems which require a UNIX source license, then?
Warren
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I think he has a point here:
Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO
(and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers. In fact,
an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors
(like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license.
That's rather conservative, isn't it? If we had done that previously,
there would never now have been an SCO licence for 16 bit UNIX. If we
do it now, there will never be a license for 32 bit UNIX. From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon
Aug 3 11:54:06 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
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Subject: Re: The Unix Heritage Society
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Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:54:06 +1000 (EST)
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In article by Warren Toomey:
Keep it to systems which require a UNIX source
license, then?
And lobby SCO for more encompassing cheap UNIX source licenses too.
I forgot to add this sentence.
Warren
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From Joerg Micheel <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> Mon Aug 3
12:23:17 1998
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Subject: Re: The Unix Society
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On Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:24:52AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote:
On Monday, 3 August 1998 at 9:35:17 +1000, Warren
Toomey wrote:
Awake! I fully agree with all of Greg's statements. Btw. the original way of
writing UNIX was actually unix. Small caps. Of course, using troff you could
take advantage of scaling fonts and say \s-2UNIX\s+2. I'm not sure about the
feeling of dmr and colleagues with respect to UNIX, but I remember him having
a heavy disrespect for STREAMS as compared to streams. The thing is that with
email when saying STREAMS you actually shout, which non of us intend to.
Joerg
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In article by Greg Lehey:
Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste
thing. I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven,
Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these systems.
We need a sub-committee to come up with a new name :-) My next suggestion is
/The UNIX Heritage Society/i
Sounds a lot better. Time for some other comments, when the rest of
the world wakes up. Hmm.
Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the
preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present.
I nominate the name The Unix Society ...
Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding
using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective.
I find the spelling "Unix" looks like the kind of mistake that
people make when they're not aware of these niceties, so I'd prefer
not to use it.
More generally, though, there's nothing in the name that suggests
anything to do with the history of the system. For all it says to the
outside world, it's a new competitor to USENIX. From "David C. Jenner"
<djenner(a)halcyon.com> Mon Aug 3 12:41:58 1998
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Subject: Re: The Unix Society
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I don't think I'm saying what you think I said? I not trying to
restrict it to nothing, or even not 32-bit.
But then it's Sunday night here, and Monday morning there, so maybe
I'm not clear about what I said!?
Dave
Greg Lehey wrote:
>
On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 18:28:56 -0700, David C.
Jenner wrote:
>
> Greg
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I think he has a point here:
Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO
(and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers. In fact,
an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors
(like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license.
That's rather conservative, isn't it? If we had done that previously,
there would never now have been an SCO licence for 16 bit UNIX. If we
do it now, there will never be a license for 32 bit UNIX. From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Aug 3
12:44:55 1998
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Subject: Re: The Unix Society
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On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 19:41:58 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote:
I don't think I'm saying what you think I
said? I not trying to
restrict it to nothing, or even not 32-bit.
But then it's Sunday night here, and Monday morning there, so maybe
I'm not clear about what I said!?
Greg Lehey wrote:
>
> On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 18:28:56 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote:
>> I think he has a point here:
>>
>> Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO
>> (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers. In fact,
>> an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors
>> (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license.
OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bis
systems. We'd like to get, say, System V as well.
Greg
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From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon
Aug 3 12:51:22 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199808030251.MAA13502(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Extending the cheap SCO src license
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:51:22 +1000 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <19980803121455.D25574(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug
3, 98 12:14:55 pm"
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In article by Greg Lehey:
OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically
to 16 bit
systems. We'd like to get, say, System V as well.
Greg
After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V
cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have
the crippled System V for the PDP-11.
You might be lucky to get System III added to the source license, and separate
binary-only licenses for certain System V systems. That's another battle, tho.
Warren
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From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Aug 3
13:06:29 1998
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Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:36:29 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Extending the cheap SCO src license
References: <19980803121455.D25574(a)freebie.lemis.com>
<199808030251.MAA13502(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
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In-Reply-To: <199808030251.MAA13502(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Mon,
Aug 03, 1998 at 12:51:22PM +1000
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On Monday, 3 August 1998 at 12:51:22 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
In article by Greg Lehey:
Yet. What did the situation look like for the Seventh Edition 5 years
ago?
OK. The current SCO license is limited
specifically to 16 bit
systems. We'd like to get, say, System V as well.
After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V
cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have
the crippled System V for the PDP-11. You might be lucky to get System III added to the
source license,
and separate binary-only licenses for certain System V
systems. That's another battle, tho.
Sure. I was just saying we shouldn't accept the status quo, not that
we should go tilting at windmills.
Greg
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