26 Feb
1998
26 Feb
'98
6:36 a.m.
Warren,
and the rest of us!
Thanks!
Everyone who has commented has covered all the same ground that I would
with the license discussion!
I will take what I can get to be legal!
Thanks for all the work on this!!
bob
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You've me to thank for that ;-)
Can do TK50, Exabyte, 0.25 SCSI cassette and will build kernels of
anything that I can safely get up on my 11/73.
This will be for UK distrib although I'll send anywhere if the postage
is reimbursed.
Robin
PS, I may be able to do TS05 in the future.
Robin Birch robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk
M1ASU Old computers and radios always welcome
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Well, yes, but what are the economics of making a couple of hundred
CD-ROMs and then having to download possibly years of additional stuff
to be up to date?
Greg
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You might remember Ralph Cramden, from the _Honeymooners_, claiming that
he was going to wait for 3-D TV before he bought one.
What are you going to do - wait until Steven dies (I swear he'll be releasing
updates to 2BSD for the rest of his life) before making a CD?
Incidentally, a couple of weeks ago I made a nice bootable Iomega ZIP
cartridge with the current 2.11 generic kernel and everything in /usr. It all
barely fits in the 100 Mbytes (well, 3*65536*512 bytes) available, and
it's a hell of a lot more convenient for installs on Unibus and Q-bus
-11's with SCSI host adapters than the traditional tape distribution.
It's also worth pointing out that on the Q-bus SCSI host adapters that I
have - the CMD CQD440, the Emulex UC08, and the Andromeda SCDC - bootable
CD-ROM distributions are entirely possible. I'm not sure if 2.11BSD will
boot from a read-only device - Steven, have you tried this?
Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
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You might remember Ralph Cramden, from the _Honeymooners_, claiming that
he was going to wait for 3-D TV before he bought one.
What are you going to do - wait until Steven dies (I swear he'll be releasing
updates to 2BSD for the rest of his life) before making a CD?
Well, no, I had made a suggestion that, with the quantities involved,
it might be easier to burn WORMs.
Greg
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On my Andromeda SCDC, the effective transfer rate to the Q-bus is just
under a megabyte per second. In other words: damn fast. (Fast
7200 RPM SCSI-II hard drives will get 1.5-2 Mbyte second). Booting
from ZIP is far, far faster than booting from a RD54. I posted some
benchmarks to vmsnet.pdp-11 two months or so ago.
That's OK. The MSCP controllers make each 2048 byte sector look like
4 512-byte blocks. And you don't need to lay down a ISO9660 filesystem;
if you throw away the idiotic software that comes with the PC-clone
CD-ROM writers, you can put any filesystem you like down. I've
built bootable RT-11 CD-ROM's this way.
>
From Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> Fri Feb 27
01:57:39 1998
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Subject: Re: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources
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I've been skipping a lot of the discussion about this, but if I read
this license correctly it seems to cover the SCO-owned bits of most of
the 4BSD releases as well. Of course all the recent ones are free
already, but I don't think that things like 4.2 are, and they're
derived from 32V I think, (or is there held to be an admixture of
stuff from System V?).
I'd be quite interested in 4.2 and 4.3 as I have a machine that runs
4.2 (not a vax...).
I suspect that the 4BSD situation must be fairly well understood by
someone, since there were all these legal arguments a few years ago
when the various PC BSDs started appearing in a big way.
Does anyone know what the real story is?
--tim
--
Tim Bradshaw, System Manager,
Artificial Intelligence Applications Institute,
University of Edinburgh
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From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri
Feb 27 06:23:30 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199802262023.HAA26835(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 07:23:30 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <199802261557.PAA13264(a)dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk> from Tim Bradshaw at
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In article by Tim Bradshaw:
I've been skipping a lot of the discussion about
this, but if I read
this license correctly it seems to cover the SCO-owned bits of most of
the 4BSD releases as well. Of course all the recent ones are free
already, but I don't think that things like 4.2 are, and they're
derived from 32V I think, (or is there held to be an admixture of
stuff from System V?).
No, the successor systems are specified as 16-bit, and that excludes the
4BSD systems as they ran on the Vax.
Besides, UCB still owns these systems. Keith Bostic has mentioned that
a back-burner project is to get all the 4BSD releases onto CD-ROMs,
and make them available to people with licenses for 32V. He knows about
the new SCO licenses. Perhaps we can start encouraging him once we get
out licenses?!
P.S Why do you think I fought to get 32V covered by the SCO license?
I wanted to be able to buy these 4BSD CD-ROMs!
Warren
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From "Steven M. Schultz"
<sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sat Feb 28 05:07:40 1998
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:07:40 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
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To: grog(a)lemis.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
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Howdy -
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
I can volunteer for this. The formats are: QIC-150, DDS, Exabyte 8500
(8200 if people can tell me how to do it on an 8500), and open reel 1600 bpi.
Are there any UNIBUS/Qbus controllers that can deal with QIC-150?
I tried putting a Wangtek 5150ES on a Emulex UC08 and it didn't work
at all. The only 'QIC' format I've seen work (and which preserves
record boundaries) is the TK25 (uses the DC600A tapes). I can
make TK25 tapes.
I can also make 6250bpi 9-track until the tapedrive wears out (at
which point I'm unlikely to sink the rather high $$$ to repair/replace
it - 4mm drives are a lot cheaper ;-)).
Each can keep
a reserve of distribution media as they wish. I'm
hoping the CD-ROM image won't change more than once a year.
Looking at the number of patches to 2.11BSD alone, I'd say that that's
a lost hope. There have been three in the past two months alone. That's one of the reasons I don't think
CD-ROM is the way to go. WORM
wouldn't have this deficiency if they were cut on demand.
I think a CD is a good way to go - it can be used as the 'baseline'.
The updates to 2.11 are publically available via FTP at either
FTP.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM or MOE.2BSD.COM. Once a system is loaded from CD
then only those patches later than the CD need to be retrieved and
applied.
One thing in that connection: please make sure that
any CD-ROM uses
RockRidge format (UNIX long file names). It would be a real pain to
Of course! There will be .MAP files to assist those systems that
need help with long filenames or deep directories.
Steven Schultz
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From Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Sat
Feb 28 06:37:13 1998
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From: Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
In-Reply-To: <199802252335.KAA25775(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
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In message <199802252335.KAA25775(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>, Warren Toomey
<wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes
Don't say
I didn't tell you.
Oh, I was expecting this.
I wonder if it's worth doing CD-ROMs for a
few hundred people.
Initially you might sell 200, but then the rest would come over a
period of time, during which there would be updates. In addition, the
CD-ROM format isn't ideal for everybody: many would like it on tape.
I'd suggest that somebody cut WORMs for those who want it on CD-ROM,
and tapes for those who want it on tape. I can offer a variety of
tape formats, including (soon, hopefully) whatever a TS05 can write
(what's that? 1600bpi?), but not WORMs.
I'd like to see:
+ a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut CD-ROMs
+ a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut tapes
+ a number of volunteers who are prepared to build kernels
From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Sat Feb 28
11:35:28 1998
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To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au,
wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
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On Fri, 27 February 1998 at 11:07:40 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
Howdy -
Indeed. Thanks.
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
You've me to thank for that ;-) Each can keep a reserve of distribution media as
they wish. I'm
hoping the CD-ROM image won't change more than once a year.
Looking at the number of patches to 2.11BSD alone, I'd say that that's
a lost hope. There have been three in the past two months alone. That's
one of the reasons I don't think CD-ROM is the way to go. WORM
wouldn't have this deficiency if they were cut on demand.
I think a CD is a good way to go - it can be used as the 'baseline'.
The updates to 2.11 are publically available via FTP at either
FTP.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM or MOE.2BSD.COM. Once a system is loaded from CD
then only those patches later than the CD need to be retrieved and
applied. From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Sat Feb
28 14:17:37 1998
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Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:17:37 -0800 (PST)
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I think a CD
is a good way to go - it can be used as the 'baseline'.
The updates to 2.11 are publically available via FTP at either
FTP.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM or MOE.2BSD.COM. Once a system is loaded from CD
then only those patches later than the CD need to be retrieved and
applied.
Well, yes, but what are the economics of making a couple of hundred
CD-ROMs and then having to download possibly years of additional stuff
to be up to date? From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Sat Feb 28
14:39:26 1998
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To: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
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On Fri, 27 February 1998 at 20:17:37 -0800, Tim Shoppa wrote:
I think a CD is a good way to go - it can be used as
the 'baseline'.
The updates to 2.11 are publically available via FTP at either
FTP.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM or MOE.2BSD.COM. Once a system is loaded from CD
then only those patches later than the CD need to be retrieved and
applied.
Well, yes, but what are the economics of making a couple of hundred
CD-ROMs and then having to download possibly years of additional stuff
to be up to date? From "Steven M. Schultz"
<sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sat Feb 28 14:43:41 1998
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:43:41 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199802280443.UAA00780(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca
Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
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Tim -
What are you going to do - wait until Steven dies (I
swear he'll be releasing
updates to 2BSD for the rest of his life) before making a CD?
The pace is slowing down due to lack of copious free time for major
projects but yeah, i kinda figure every couple months I'll find
something that needs fixing/tweeking/etc ;)
Incidentally, a couple of weeks ago I made a nice
bootable Iomega ZIP
cartridge with the current 2.11 generic kernel and everything in /usr. It all
barely fits in the 100 Mbytes (well, 3*65536*512 bytes) available, and
How "speedy" is a ZIP drive? I keep threatening to get a JAZ drive
for my 11 - they're nice. I don't like the DB25 style of cable
that the normal external ZIP drive uses so I'd have to find one of the
rare internal ZIP drives and stuff it into a traditional shoebox.
-11's with SCSI host adapters than the
traditional tape distribution.
Tape's good for backups though, so when I don't feel like putting up
with the racket of the 9-track I just cable up the 4mm drive to
the 11/73. Alas, the QIC style of drives don't work, at least not
with the Emulex UC08. For a brief moment the Seagate Tapestore 8000
appeared to work but then the whole system/controller hung (I suspect
the UC08 doesn't know how to deal with more modern tape drives).
The older QIC (Wangtek-5150ES) doesn't work at all - the UC08 barfs
at drives that don't do variable record mode. Do the CMD adaptors
do any better with "PC" style SCSI tape devices?
It's also worth pointing out that on the Q-bus
SCSI host adapters that I
have - the CMD CQD440, the Emulex UC08, and the Andromeda SCDC - bootable
CD-ROM distributions are entirely possible. I'm not sure if 2.11BSD will
Uh, 2.11 doesn't know how to deal with 2048 byte sectors or the
ISO9660 filesystem. Now a MO drive that used 512 byte sector'd
media should work just fine - but that style of drive is fading
in popularity.
boot from a read-only device - Steven, have you tried
this?
It'll panic. For a couple reasons: pipes are implemented via
the filesystem rather than sockets so anything involving pipes
needs a rw filesystem. And a swap area is needed. If there's
memory available there won't be any actual swapping going on but
argument gathering, etc during an 'exec' can use a small amount of
swap space. It might be possible to use a 'ram' disk but it's not
clear to me it'd be worth the trouble.
Steven
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From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Sat Feb
28 16:07:21 1998
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
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Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 22:07:21 -0800 (PST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199802280443.UAA00780(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz"
at Feb 27, 98 08:43:41 pm
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Incidentally,
a couple of weeks ago I made a nice bootable Iomega ZIP
cartridge with the current 2.11 generic kernel and everything in /usr. It all
barely fits in the 100 Mbytes (well, 3*65536*512 bytes) available, and
How "speedy" is a ZIP drive? I keep threatening to get a JAZ drive
for my 11 - they're nice. I don't like the DB25 style of cable
that the normal external ZIP drive uses so I'd have to find one of the
rare internal ZIP drives and stuff it into a traditional shoebox.
That aren't all that rare. You just have to go someplace other than
Fry's, that's all :-).
> -11's with SCSI host adapters than the
traditional tape distribution.
>
> Tape's good for backups though, so when I don't feel like putting up
> with the racket of the 9-track I just cable up the 4mm drive to
> the 11/73. Alas, the QIC style of drives don't work, at least not
> with the Emulex UC08. For a brief moment the Seagate Tapestore 8000
> appeared to work but then the whole system/controller hung (I suspect
> the UC08 doesn't know how to deal with more modern tape drives).
> The older QIC (Wangtek-5150ES) doesn't work at all - the UC08 barfs
> at drives that don't do variable record mode. Do the CMD adaptors
> do any better with "PC" style SCSI tape devices?
The problem is that most QIC devices are commonly operated in fixed-size-
block mode, something that TMSCP doesn't really grok well unless its
hidden under a layer that hides this and allows for variable-sized
"virtual" blocks. (Your TK25 takes care of all of this for you
automagically.)
have - the CMD
CQD440, the Emulex UC08, and the Andromeda SCDC - bootable
CD-ROM distributions are entirely possible. I'm not sure if 2.11BSD will
Uh, 2.11 doesn't know how to deal with 2048 byte sectors or the
ISO9660 filesystem. boot from a read-only device - Steven, have you tried
this?
>
> It'll panic. For a couple reasons: pipes are implemented via
> the filesystem rather than sockets so anything involving pipes
> needs a rw filesystem. And a swap area is needed. If there's
> memory available there won't be any actual swapping going on but
> argument gathering, etc during an 'exec' can use a small amount of
> swap space. It might be possible to use a 'ram' disk
RT-11 also wants a writable swap file, and this is indeed provided by
using a RAM disk (i.e. VM:).
but it's not
clear to me it'd be worth the trouble.
It depends on how convenient you find installation from CD-ROM :-). I find
the bootable ZIP disk very convenient for "recovery media", and they're
a whole lot easier to fit in my shirt pocket than a RL02 cart!
Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)