27 Jan
1999
27 Jan
'99
2:36 a.m.
On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:
Sigh. I guess I shouldn't get into a new squabble with/over Solokov, but
here I go again...
Look, if you're going to mixmaster my text like this, I'm not about to
respond to yours any more and give you more material to play with. As
I said, I have an interest in old Unices mostly for historical reasons;
you appear to have an interest because you want to branch new development
from them -- fine, that's as may be, who cares? There's certainly room
for both points of view, and I fail to see why you're being so combative.
Solokov has in the past been more than just combative. I'd say he's more
or less on the hate list of a lot of people on the NetBSD/vax list for
raving all the time. He finally ceased posting there, to most everyones
relief.
Unfortunately he started posting here instead.
Couldn't we do a real split of the pdp-11-stuff, and all other historical
Unix stuff. I'm really not interested in historical Unix. I'm first and
foremost interested in pdp-11, that's why I got into this list. Unix is a
secondary issue to me, and historical Unix isn't my playfield.
The other option would be to get out of this list totally, but some people
actually need help with pdp-11 stuff, and there I can contribute.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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Hmmm. This could well degenerate into a squabble. ;-)
Let's just say that VAXen are still being sold, as far as I know. VMS are
still being sold. However COMPAQ sure don't push for VAXen, so I expect
them to die soon. Alpha is the main target of VMS these days for sure. But
there still exists VAXen that no Unix can run, leaving only VMS. And also,
some stuff just isn't utilized that well under Ultrix, which means VMS is
the more developed, and supported OS.
While I run Unix on the VAXen I have, I sure wish someone had implemented
the MSCP BBR stuff for instance. Not event Ultrix does it properly,
relying on a separate, manual program for it.
And let's not rack down on Ken Olsen and what he said/didn't say here. :-)
Me for one wouldn't mind, even if I think the correct forum would be
info-pdp11, but then again, people usually seem happy to just find *any*
forum for pdp-11 stuff.
I don't mind talking about V[0-7] here, even though they are older than
2.11BSD, but really, BSD[3,4] isn't what I'm in here for.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 03:40:19AM -0500, Michael
Sokolov wrote:
> Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote:
>
> You may believe whatever you want, but I will only remark that several very
> prominent VAX hardware gurus (some of them on this list) support my work very
> eagerly. Whatever you or the NetBSD gang may believe, my True UNIX is the only
> UNIX system that is really a VAX OS and can truly drive a VAX the way it's
> supposed to be driven.
I'd argue that VMS is the true driver of VAXen, and nothing else...
Unix is kindof a side track altogether. No matter what religious beliefs
you have.
When it "drives" most VAXen, I encourage you
to let me know. It won't even
run on most of the VAXen I have, and I don't expect that to change any
time soon. But if your definition of "the way it's supposed to be
driven"
is "not at all", I guess I have no quibble with your logic, at least. I
want support for the hardware I own, and features like mmap() and NFS.
Between those, I think you'll find quite a bit of the bloat you're complaining
about. I also want some user-convenience features like dynamic libraries and
a compiler that can actually optimize code worth a damn, even if it's GCC,
which I think you'd probably find even more objectionable. So any system
you produce is not likely to be useful to me. Let's agree to disagree
about this.
No, Solokov isn't likely to please you.
Despite the great temptation to do so, neither the
NetBSD nor the FreeBSD
project have taken up the mantle of CSRG [...]
Excellent! This gives me the luxury of being free from competitors. From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Wed Jan
27 06:52:00 1999
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From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: Michael Sokolov <mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
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On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Michael Sokolov wrote:
Eventually I will support almost every VAX ever made,
just like Ultrix. There
is no reason why it can't be done. If Ultrix, a close 4.3BSD derivative, could
do this, so can 4.3BSD-* itself.
FYI. Ultrix don't support every VAX ever made.
Only VMS does.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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From "Steven M. Schultz"
<sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Jan 27 08:23:31 1999
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Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:23:31 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
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Hi Johnny -
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
Sigh. I guess I shouldn't get into a new squabble with/over Solokov, but
here I go again...
Netbsd's mailing list was rendered unreadable for quite a while ;-(
I'd argue that VMS is the true driver of VAXen,
and nothing else...
Unix is kindof a side track altogether. No matter what religious beliefs
I maintain the opposite. VMS _was_ (past tense) the driver of
VAXEN but that was due to Ken "UNIX is Snake Oil" Olsen. Since DEC
is defunct and VMS is effectively no longer, I'd argue that UNIX is
the winner/driver. Are Vaxen even being made any longer? The ALPHA
is what is driving Compaq/dec now.
> I want support for the hardware I own, and
features like mmap() and NFS.
> Between those, I think you'll find quite a bit of the bloat you're ...
Amen! Adding NFS to the kernel about doubles the size of the kernel.
Unfortunately he started posting here instead.
;-(
Couldn't we do a real split of the pdp-11-stuff,
and all other historical
Unix stuff. I'm really not interested in historical Unix. I'm first and
foremost interested in pdp-11, that's why I got into this list. Unix is a
Hear hear! PUPS started out with the emphasis on PDP-11s based UNIX
although other OSs would be welcome (the RT11 and RSTS folks have
their own forums though). I doubt anyone would be upset if someone
posted an RSX11D question to PUPS but I think many of us are getting
tired of a proposed new/wonderous "4.4BSD".
Steven Schultz
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From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed
Jan 27 08:26:24 1999
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Subject: Re: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image
In-Reply-To: <199901260125.UAA03071(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> from Michael Sokolov at
"Jan 25, 1999 8:25:12 pm"
To: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:26:24 +1100 (EST)
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In article by Michael Sokolov:
allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent) wrote:
Just some clarification here. There is a section in the PUPS Archive
which is not readily accesible to normal S/Key users of the archive.
This is mainly used by those volunteers who are helping to distribute
the archive, and for other sundry stuff.
If a volunteer puts something in there which is copyright, then they
must understand that the legal responsibility is theirs and theirs alone.
The same thing applies to the main archive.
I would definitely recommend that the firmware image is removed from the
PUPS Archive until it can be legally distributed to people without a DEC
software license.
Cheers,
Warren
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Get that out of there fast, it's copyrighted
firmware!
The PUPS archive already contains some PDP-11 boot/diag/etc. odds and ends.
Why not have VAX ones too? From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed
Jan 27 08:36:27 1999
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: Why not 4.4BSD?
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:36:27 +1100 (EST)
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Just my $0.02 worth.
I haven't moved the majority of 4BSD stuff into the PUPS Archive mainly to
give Kirk a chance to sell his 4 CD set containing all the CSRG releases.
He's done a lot of hard work a) writing BSD code over the years and
b) finding, transcribing from tape, and organising the various releases onto
the CD set.
I am always prepared to distribute sub-parts of the 4CD set to people if
they want it, and I'd be very happy to put into the PUPS Archive the most
popular 4BSD releases. In fact, this has been done, to some extent.
I would resist the urge to distribute the entire CSRG collection either
via media or through the on-line archive, at least until Kirk has been
recompensed for his work.
However, Emanuel let me know exactly which 4BSD release you'd like to see,
and it will be added!
Cheers,
Warren
P.S Also, a plea for unity w.r.t this mailing list, or at the very least
a sense of restraint and _understanding_ of other people's viewpoints.
Thanks.
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From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed
Jan 27 08:38:32 1999
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: Re: UNIX V6 Enhancements/Games
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9901260824400.19662-100000(a)dizzy.cs.fiu.edu> from
alejandro gonzalez at "Jan 26, 1999 8:27:15 am"
To: agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu (alejandro gonzalez)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:38:32 +1100 (EST)
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In article by alejandro gonzalez:
Reading the Unix Summary, I have noticed that some packages are
distributed as Enhancements: Like TROFF, or some of the Games, and not in
the orginial distribution
The Unix System the comes with the tapes does not come with Man, Troff,
etc.. Is any of this extra stuff in the Pups Archive? If so, Where?
Alex
All we have are the tapes as donated to us by Dennis Ritchie and Ken
Wellsch. I don't know if a copy of the enhancements still exist. However,
they may have been part of PWB UNIX, which was around at the same time as
Research UNIX. Have a look in the Distributions/usdl section for PWB UNIX.
Warren
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From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed
Jan 27 08:44:19 1999
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901262244.JAA05790(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Split of PUPS mail list??
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:44:19 +1100 (EST)
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All,
Both Steven Schultz and Johnny Billquist have suggested a split
of the existing PUPS mailing list into a number of mailing lists. As the
maintainer of the list, I am not in a position to force a decision either
way: instead, I think it should be driven by the list members.
Please email me your suggestions, desires etc w.r.t this issue. I will
post a summary sometime next week, and we can then decide what to do.
Many thanks,
Warren
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From "emanuel stiebler"
<emu(a)ecubics.com> Wed Jan 27 09:20:17 1999
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From: "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com>
To: <wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au>, "Unix Heritage Society"
<pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Why not 4.4BSD?
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:20:17 -0700
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Hi,
----------
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
To: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Why not 4.4BSD?
Date: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 3:36 PM
I haven't moved the majority of 4BSD stuff into
the PUPS Archive mainly
to
give Kirk a chance to sell his 4 CD set containing all
the CSRG releases.
He's done a lot of hard work a) writing BSD code over the years and
b) finding, transcribing from tape, and organising the various releases
onto
the CD set.
That's the explanation i waited for, and i understand that.
I would resist the urge to distribute the entire CSRG
collection either
via media or through the on-line archive, at least until Kirk has been
recompensed for his work.
NO problem with that.
However, Emanuel let me know exactly which 4BSD
release you'd like to
see,
and it will be added!
Sorry, for the "noise" following my I thought "simple" question. I
only
wanted to know, why the 4.4 releases were not in the archive. They are part
of the AU license anyway, and i thought, they are missing.
P.S Also, a plea for unity w.r.t this mailing list, or
at the very least
a sense of restraint and _understanding_ of other people's viewpoints.
I prefer one list, THIS one. The problems we had in the last 24 hours are
my fault.
Sorry for this, i should know that sometimes a "dumb" question start a
flame/war about color/religions & BSD versions.
Sorry about this.
emanuel
So a now PLEASE back to our business, enjoying our nice PDP's ;-))
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From Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Wed
Jan 27 09:46:16 1999
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From: Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Split of PUPS mail list??
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In message <199901262244.JAA05790(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>, Warren Toomey
<wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> writes
All,
Both Steven Schultz and Johnny Billquist have suggested a split
of the existing PUPS mailing list into a number of mailing lists. As the
maintainer of the list, I am not in a position to force a decision either
way: instead, I think it should be driven by the list members.
Please email me your suggestions, desires etc w.r.t this issue. I will
post a summary sometime next week, and we can then decide what to do.
Many thanks,
Warren
FWITW
I vote for a split, if only to make the filing easier. If people feel
as strongly as some do about not wanting one of the lists then fine,
that makes it easier.
Something similar is in place at NetBSD if you want just notices, posts
on one type of OS or whatever.
Cheers
Robin
____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk
M1ASU/2E0ARJ Old computers and radios always welcome
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From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Wed Jan
27 10:14:00 1999
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From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
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Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
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On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
Hi Johnny -
Hi there, Steven.
From: Johnny
Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
I'd argue that VMS is the true driver of VAXen, and nothing else...
Unix is kindof a side track altogether. No matter what religious beliefs
I maintain the opposite. VMS _was_ (past tense) the driver of
VAXEN but that was due to Ken "UNIX is Snake Oil" Olsen. Since DEC
is defunct and VMS is effectively no longer, I'd argue that UNIX is
the winner/driver. Are Vaxen even being made any longer? The ALPHA
is what is driving Compaq/dec now. Couldn't
we do a real split of the pdp-11-stuff, and all other historical
Unix stuff. I'm really not interested in historical Unix. I'm first and
foremost interested in pdp-11, that's why I got into this list. Unix is a
Hear hear! PUPS started out with the emphasis on PDP-11s based UNIX
although other OSs would be welcome (the RT11 and RSTS folks have
their own forums though). I doubt anyone would be upset if someone
posted an RSX11D question to PUPS but I think many of us are getting
tired of a proposed new/wonderous "4.4BSD".