29 Jul
1998
29 Jul
'98
10:31 p.m.
< Excuse me, sir, but I have to make a point here. They _ARE_ competing
Not an undesireable thing. May the best win... for the rest of us any
is better than zero.
< 0. The only higher-than-PDP-11 computers that can be allowed to run U
< are DEC VAXen. I oppose the idea of running UNIX on PeeCees and shit lik
< that.
That is also wrong, as Interdata 8/32, IBM System/370 and Honeywell 6000
are recognized as ports by K&R in their docs! the latter three systems
while interesting are not general collectors fare as they tend to be a
bit large.
Frankly, why not? Anything that competes with MS is good!
< 1. I consider it the ultimate in blasphemy to attempt to create "UNI
< clones" that people dare to call "Unix" but don't really contain
any cod
< written by God Ritchie, God Thompson, or God Kernighan. I never use any
< "free Unices" like FreeBSD and NetBSD. Right now I use Ultrix and SunOS
It was God Bell Labs (nee WE) that K&R worked for that put the odious
license fees on unix, in 1980 it was a mere $24,000 for the sources which
were a must have. People started doing clones to break free of the
license and distributions that didn't contain sources. It made possible
to get on platforms that were unsupported/unsupportable without source
code or at least for the commercial versions at lower cost to the user.
Venix for Pro350 is such an example (it's v6 or v7 code!). I'm not
saying the clones are good or bad, only born of necessity. Of course
they couldn't contain and of said God code due to licenses.
Like all gods their feet are of clay.
Since the goal is to preserve unix and unix like OSs there is no crime,
even if the varients are not direct decendents. So long as people
understand the lineage preservation should certainly should proceed.
Allison
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From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys"
<rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Thu Jul 30 03:27:12 1998
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From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199807291727.NAA04034(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....
In-Reply-To: <9807291552.AA12576(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> from Michael Sokolov at
"Jul 29, 98 11:52:57 am"
To: msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:27:12 -0400 (EDT)
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"User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys"
<rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> wrote:
No excuses necessary. But, please relax a bit and don't let the blood
boil to much. All of us here, are interested in the preservation of the
beast. Granted many may run it for a living, me included, to some extent.
But, likewise most or many of us are the same folks that have a vaxen
or pdp-11 in the basement (I remember seeing a pix of one of our leader's
machines next to the kitchen fridge?). Clearly, the basement/kitchen toys
are not competing. They are purely hobby related. My dumpster risc box
won't ever compete again, but is fun to spin up a TeX and troff on.
It is obvious that none of the old toys are going
to be competing with
the rush to NT and SCOish things.
Excuse me, sir, but I have to make a point here. They _ARE_ competing! My office is the largest room in the department, and
it's filled with VAXen
of all kinds. My goal is to get 4.3BSD-* running on all of them and operate
this system in direct competition with other UNIX systems on our campus,
which are all Pentiums or SPARCs. Since my system administration skills and
friendliness to students surpass those of other campus UNIX systems' admins
by many orders of binary magnitude, I plan to urge people to migrate to my
VAXen this way. Yes, my plan is total world VAX domination! This is exactly
why I want to modify Berkeley VAX UNIX to run on all VAX models from 11/780
to 10000. (An EXTREMELY daring and ambitious goal, needless to say.)
Clearly yours are more mainstream related.
Kudos for the sysadmin handholding towards the students. Mentoring, one
on one is the best way to handle many computer learning things.
Although vaxen may dominate the world (or did at one time, according to
Henry Spencer's infamous ten commandments for C programmers), there are
many lesser breeds that I sense others of us partake of. Also, there
are insufficient numbers of remaining vaxen and pdp-11's for all of us
to have one in the home hobbyroom. Because of that, I would suggest
that maybe there is interest in the other lines of machines and their
related unices, even the 32bitters.
I have two strong and radical views:
0. The only higher-than-PDP-11 computers that can be allowed to run UNIX
are DEC VAXen. I oppose the idea of running UNIX on PeeCees and shit like
that.
Not so, IMHO. The purist may run a vaxen in the manner of the Bugattis
of old, but us garage monkeywrench types may be stuck with even a lowly
PC thingie. Don't quite put the PC flavors down, since I can attest to
their utility in poverty stricken research projects for at least the past
10 years, courtesy Big Blue and that hybrid PC unix of theirs (AIX 1.x).
Also, the freebie BSD's are sufficiently close to the real thing, that
most average users would not know the difference. Cat is cat is cat,
no matter how it is coded (and they all look remarkably similar).
1. I consider it the ultimate in blasphemy to
attempt to create "UNIX
clones" that people dare to call "Unix" but don't really contain any
code
written by God Ritchie, God Thompson, or God Kernighan. I never use any
"free Unices" like FreeBSD and NetBSD. Right now I use Ultrix and SunOS,
which are kosher in the above sense but binary-only for most people. The
latter part is why I want to move to 4.3BSD-*. Also my belief in True
licensed UNIX(R) is the reason I have joined PUPS, as it seems to be the
only remaining group dealing with such UNIX.
Well, yes and no.
I consider it a tribute to the likes of Thompson, Ritchie, Kernighan,
Ossanna, and a string of others down the trees, that the wisdom of their
reasoning and toiling has had fruition even in the lowly PC's. Why did
the freebies catch on like they have? Because the folks wanted something
like a BSD, and the corporate bean counters and lawyers missed their chance.
As to which flavor to use, I use what I have that will run on whichever
box I have on. I prefer a BSDish box, but even a V7 is fun, and with
a viish terminal driver and troff, still runs with the best of the big
dogs, and even AIX is usable if you get used to its quirks.
But, for sure, the point of all this is to preserve the history, code,
nuances, and whatever else can be maintained, unless I am sorely amiss
of the PUPS goals. I only think it needs to include the castoff 32
bit machines, too, hence the need for a BUPS group, IMHO.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
With all due respect.
R.D. Keys
rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu
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From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys"
<rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Thu Jul 30 03:57:22 1998
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From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199807291757.NAA04109(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts (what have we started?)
In-Reply-To: <199807291631.AA16185(a)world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Jul
29, 98 12:31:06 pm"
To: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:57:22 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
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Not an undesireable thing. May the best win... for
the rest of us any
is better than zero.
Well said, but perhaps we need to frame that with something like,
``all will win, even the least....''
< 0. The only higher-than-PDP-11 computers that
can be allowed to run U
< are DEC VAXen. I oppose the idea of running UNIX on PeeCees and shit lik
< that.
That is also wrong, as Interdata 8/32, IBM System/370 and Honeywell 6000
are recognized as ports by K&R in their docs! the latter three systems
while interesting are not general collectors fare as they tend to be a
bit large.
Can anyone refresh my memory of what machines specifically were listed
in the V7 and 32V and 2/3/4BSD docs? I would like to get that clear,
for reference purposes. Also, what specific machines were ported out
of these main sources by the odd vendors. The majority was pdp11ish,
but about V7 time the 68000 and Z8000 and other oddities pop up.
< 1. I consider it the ultimate in blasphemy to
attempt to create "UNI
< clones" that people dare to call "Unix" but don't really contain
any cod
< written by God Ritchie, God Thompson, or God Kernighan. I never use any
< "free Unices" like FreeBSD and NetBSD. Right now I use Ultrix and SunOS
It was God Bell Labs (nee WE) that K&R worked for that put the odious
license fees on unix, in 1980 it was a mere $24,000 for the sources which
were a must have. People started doing clones to break free of the
license and distributions that didn't contain sources. It made possible
to get on platforms that were unsupported/unsupportable without source
code or at least for the commercial versions at lower cost to the user.
Venix for Pro350 is such an example (it's v6 or v7 code!). I'm not
saying the clones are good or bad, only born of necessity. Of course
they couldn't contain and of said God code due to licenses.
I would agree on the necessity. Back in '88 I went shopping for an office
machine, and could find nothing under around 25 kilobucks. I opted out
for a peanuts budget machine (PS/2 model 80 with AIX) at around 10K bucks
and the silly thing is still whirring away as my remote tape dumper.
Alas, it is a much maligned PC, but it functions nontheless, and IS a
real unix. Alas, these days, its steam is a little underpowered trying
to scrape the web, so it idles in the background. Technically, it is
a 32 bit abandoned unix, and for hypotheticals, it ought to be something
workable in a BUPS sort of archive, with proper Big Blue nodding. The
same thing should occur for the RT. It would probably be a nightmare
of paperwork between SCO and IBM and us, tho.....
Like all gods their feet are of clay.
The gods were hacking away fine.... alas the beanyheads upstairs had
their feet stuck, if I am reading my history correctly.
Since the goal is to preserve unix and unix like OSs
there is no crime,
even if the varients are not direct decendents. So long as people
understand the lineage preservation should certainly should proceed.
The goal is to save it if possible, BEFORE it becomes vaporware, for
purely hobby/historical purposes, with the big player's graces and
consents.
If we don't dream a little and oil some squeeky wheels, it will never
get done.....
Allison
RDK
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From "Ian King"
<iking(a)KillTheWabbit.org> Thu Jul 30 16:02:39 1998
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From: "Ian King" <iking(a)KillTheWabbit.org>
To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>,
"Michael Sokolov" <msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
Cc: <bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>, <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 23:02:39 -0700
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I'm glad there are people and codebases that compete with Microsoft -- and I work for
Microsoft. It keeps us on our toes. :-) I run NT 4.0 and Linux 2.0.30 side-by-side at
home, on the selfsame network -- and all on Intel hardware. I am on this mailing list
because I am gaining a PDP 11/34 as a new resident in my home, which will be networked
together with the Intel hardware (so I don't have to run downstairs all the time --
the PDP is too large for my computer room upstairs). Why? Call it a sense of
history....
Why shouldn't UNIX run on everything? The beauty of the UNIX idea -- which has been
cloned and transported and transliterated and transmogrified a myriad times a myriad times
-- is that it expresses a rich metaphor for computation, which allows us to make use of
these metal monsters. I have the greatest respect for "true" UNIX and its
parents and godparents. I also have a lot of respect for Linus Torvalds and the
incredible piece of work he birthed -- a true UNIX version that makes excellent use of the
PC architecture.
The PC architecture has commoditized significant computing power in a manner that Digital
could never have done (or at least, never did), and placed that into the hands of many
people who would be otherwise financially barred from playing this game. IMHO it's
specious to demonize a particular machine architecture and declare that UNIXes running on
it are somehow illegitimate.
Cheers -- Ian King
NOTE: this is strictly my personal ramblings, and does not in any way represent the
official position of the Microsoft Corporation.
----------
From: User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys
<rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
Cc: bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....
Date: Wednesday, July 29, 1998 10:27 AM
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"User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys"
<rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> wrote:
No excuses necessary. But, please relax a bit and don't let the blood
boil to much. All of us here, are interested in the preservation of the
beast. Granted many may run it for a living, me included, to some extent.
But, likewise most or many of us are the same folks that have a vaxen
or pdp-11 in the basement (I remember seeing a pix of one of our leader's
machines next to the kitchen fridge?). Clearly, the basement/kitchen toys
are not competing. They are purely hobby related. My dumpster risc box
won't ever compete again, but is fun to spin up a TeX and troff on.
It is obvious that none of the old toys are going
to be competing with
the rush to NT and SCOish things.
Excuse me, sir, but I have to make a point here. They _ARE_ competing! My office is the largest room in the department,
and it's filled with VAXen
of all kinds. My goal is to get 4.3BSD-* running on all of them and operate
this system in direct competition with other UNIX systems on our campus,
which are all Pentiums or SPARCs. Since my system administration skills and
friendliness to students surpass those of other campus UNIX systems' admins
by many orders of binary magnitude, I plan to urge people to migrate to my
VAXen this way. Yes, my plan is total world VAX domination! This is exactly
why I want to modify Berkeley VAX UNIX to run on all VAX models from 11/780
to 10000. (An EXTREMELY daring and ambitious goal, needless to say.)
Clearly yours are more mainstream related.
Kudos for the sysadmin handholding towards the students. Mentoring, one
on one is the best way to handle many computer learning things.
Although vaxen may dominate the world (or did at one time, according to
Henry Spencer's infamous ten commandments for C programmers), there are
many lesser breeds that I sense others of us partake of. Also, there
are insufficient numbers of remaining vaxen and pdp-11's for all of us
to have one in the home hobbyroom. Because of that, I would suggest
that maybe there is interest in the other lines of machines and their
related unices, even the 32bitters.
I have two strong and radical views:
0. The only higher-than-PDP-11 computers that can be allowed to run UNIX
are DEC VAXen. I oppose the idea of running UNIX on PeeCees and shit like
that.
Not so, IMHO. The purist may run a vaxen in the manner of the Bugattis
of old, but us garage monkeywrench types may be stuck with even a lowly
PC thingie. Don't quite put the PC flavors down, since I can attest to
their utility in poverty stricken research projects for at least the past
10 years, courtesy Big Blue and that hybrid PC unix of theirs (AIX 1.x).
Also, the freebie BSD's are sufficiently close to the real thing, that
most average users would not know the difference. Cat is cat is cat,
no matter how it is coded (and they all look remarkably similar).
1. I consider it the ultimate in blasphemy to
attempt to create "UNIX
clones" that people dare to call "Unix" but don't really contain any
code
written by God Ritchie, God Thompson, or God Kernighan. I never use any
"free Unices" like FreeBSD and NetBSD. Right now I use Ultrix and SunOS,
which are kosher in the above sense but binary-only for most people. The
latter part is why I want to move to 4.3BSD-*. Also my belief in True
licensed UNIX(R) is the reason I have joined PUPS, as it seems to be the
only remaining group dealing with such UNIX.
Well, yes and no.
I consider it a tribute to the likes of Thompson, Ritchie, Kernighan,
Ossanna, and a string of others down the trees, that the wisdom of their
reasoning and toiling has had fruition even in the lowly PC's. Why did
the freebies catch on like they have? Because the folks wanted something
like a BSD, and the corporate bean counters and lawyers missed their chance.
As to which flavor to use, I use what I have that will run on whichever
box I have on. I prefer a BSDish box, but even a V7 is fun, and with
a viish terminal driver and troff, still runs with the best of the big
dogs, and even AIX is usable if you get used to its quirks.
But, for sure, the point of all this is to preserve the history, code,
nuances, and whatever else can be maintained, unless I am sorely amiss
of the PUPS goals. I only think it needs to include the castoff 32
bit machines, too, hence the need for a BUPS group, IMHO.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
With all due respect.
R.D. Keys
rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri
Jul 31 11:20:35 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199807310120.LAA08798(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....)
To: grog(a)lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:20:35 +1000 (EST)
Cc: rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu, wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au,
pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <19980731094513.U7830(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Jul
31, 98 09:45:13 am"
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In article by Greg Lehey:
Are we really so many disparate people that we need
two lists? I'd
guess that most people would be on both lists. How about just a name
change, to "Old UNIX Preservation Society"?
Greg
I don't know, I thought that it would give people more flexibility,
and shield people from stuff they didn't want to see. So lets ask:
If you're on the PUPS list, do you want to see stuff about non PDP-11 Unixes?
If you're on the BUPS list, do you want to see stuff about PDP-11 Unixes.
Cheers all,
Warren
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From "David C. Jenner"
<djenner(a)halcyon.com> Fri Jul 31 13:24:43 1998
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Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....)
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I vote for one list. Leave it PUPS, and call it the
Past/Prehistoric/Perpetual Unix Preservation Society
or something like that. Or think up a "P" adjective
that glorifies the olden Unix.
Almost everything has been cross-posted up to this point,
and I get two copies anyway!
Dave
Warren Toomey wrote:
In article by Greg Lehey:
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Are we really so many disparate people that we
need two lists? I'd
guess that most people would be on both lists. How about just a name
change, to "Old UNIX Preservation Society"?
Greg
I don't know, I thought that it would give people more flexibility,
and shield people from stuff they didn't want to see. So lets ask:
If you're on the PUPS list, do you want to see stuff about non PDP-11 Unixes?
If you're on the BUPS list, do you want to see stuff about PDP-11 Unixes.
Cheers all,
Warren From Stacy Minkin <stacy(a)asia.uznet.net> Fri Jul
31 15:29:46 1998
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From: Stacy Minkin <stacy(a)asia.uznet.net>
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I also vote for one list.
Stacy.
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From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri
Jul 31 15:54:00 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199807310554.PAA09629(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Let'em be one!
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:54:00 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199807310529.KAA01933(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> from Stacy Minkin at
"Jul 31, 98 10:29:46 am"
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In article by Stacy Minkin:
I also vote for one list [about old UNIX].
Stacy.
Looks like most people would like a common list, so I have merged the
two lists. The PUPS list is now for Prehistoric UNIX :-) I'll keep the
PUPS web page about PDP-11 stuff for now, though.
The bups@minnie list is gone, and all mail for the list should
now go to pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au.
What next?
Warren
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