TUHS

tuhs@tuhs.org

21 participants
6412 discussions

by Will Senn

Hi all, I was reading a recent thread, over on the FreeBSD forums about groups that quickly devolved into a discussion on the origin of the operator group: https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/groups-overview.82303/ I thought y’all would be the best place to ask the questions that arose in me during my read of the thread. Here they are in no special order: 1. Where did operator come from and what was it intended to solve? 2. How has it evolved. 3. What’s a good place to look/ref to read about groups, generally? I liked one respondent’s answer about using find, heir, and the files themselves to learn about groups being used in a running system, paying attention to the owner, Audi, etc along the way and this is how I do it now, but this approach doesn’t account for the history and evolution. Thanks! Willu Sent from my iPhone

3 years, 3 months

Re: [TUHS] Systematic approach to command-line interfaces

by Paul Ruizendaal

Greg wrote: > I guess pipe(2) kind of started this mess, [...] Maybe I'm > going to far with thinking pipe() could/should have just been a library > call that used open(2) internally, perhaps connecting the descriptors by > opening some kind of "cloning" device in the filesystem. At times I’ve been pondering this as well. All of creat/open/pipe could have been rolled into just open(). It is not clear to me why this synthesis did not happen around the time of 7th edition; although it seems the creat/open merger happened in BSD around that time. As to pipe(), the very first implementation returned just a single fd where writes echoed to reads. It was backed by a single disk buffer, so could only hold ~500 bytes, which was probably not enough in practice. Then it was reimplemented using an anonymous file as backing store and got the modern two fd system call. The latter probably arose as a convenient hack to store the two file pointers needed. It would have been possible to implement the anonymous file solution still using a single fd, and storing the second file pointer in the inode. Maybe this felt as a worse hack at the time (the conceptual split in vnode / inode was still a decade into the future.) With a single fd, it would also have been possible to have a cloning device for pipe’s as you suggest (e.g. /dev/pipe, somewhat analogous to the implementation of /dev/stdin in 10th edition). Arguably, in total code/data size this would not have been much different from pipe(). My guess is that from a 1975 perspective, creat/open/pipe was not perceived as something that needed fixing.

3 years, 3 months

Re: [TUHS] mmap origin (was Systematic approach to command-line interfaces)

by Paul Ruizendaal

Dan wrote: > 3BSD and I think 4.1BSD had vread() and vwrite(), which looked like > regular read() and write() but accessed pages only on demand. I was a > grad student at Berkeley at the time and remember their genesis. Bill > and I were eating lunch from Top Dog on the Etcheverry Hall plaza, and > were talking about memory-mapped I/O. I remember suggesting the actual > names, perhaps as a parallel to vfork(). I had used both TENEX and > Multics, which both had page mapping. Multics' memory-mapped segments > were quite fundamental, of course. I think we were looking for something > vaguely upward compatible from the existing system calls. We did not > leap to an mmap() right away just because it would have been a more > radical shift than continuing the stream orientation of UNIX. I did not > implement any of this: it was just a brainstorming session. Thank you for reminding me of these. On a substrate with a unified buffer cache and copy-on-write, vread/vwrite would have been very close to regular read/write and maybe could have been subsumed into them, using flags to open() as the differentiator. The user discernible effect would have been the alignment requirement on the buffer argument. John Reiser wrote that he "fretted” over adding a 6 argument system call. Perhaps he was considering something like the above as the alternative, I never asked. I looked at the archives and vread/vwrite were introduced with 3BSD, present in 4BSD but marked deprecated, and absent from 4.1BSD. This short lifetime suggests that using vread and vwrite wasn’t entirely satisfactory in 1980/81 practice. Maybe the issue was that there was no good way to deallocate the buffer after use.

3 years, 3 months

Systematic approach to command-line interfaces

by Michael Siegel

Hello, I've recently started to implement a set of helper functions and procedures for parsing Unix-like command-line interfaces (i.e., POSIX + GNU-style long options, in this case) in Ada. While doing that, I learned that there is a better way to approach this problem – beyond using getopt(s) (which never really made sense to me) and having to write case statements in loops every time: Define a grammar, let a pre-built parser do the work, and have the parser provide the results to the program. Now, defining such a grammar requires a thoroughly systematic approach to the design of command-line interfaces. One problem with that is whether that grammar should allow for sub-commands. And that leads to the question of how task-specific tool sets should be designed. These seem to be a relatively new phenomenon in Unix-like systems that POSIX doesn't say anything about, as far as I can see. So, I've prepared a bit of a write-up, pondering on the pros and cons of two different ways of having task-specific tool sets (non-hierarchical command sets vs. sub-commands) that is available at https://www.msiism.org/files/doc/unix-like_command-line_interfaces.html I tend to think the sub-command approach is better. But I'm neither a UI nor a Unix expert and have no formal training in computer things. So, I thought this would be a good place to ask for comment (and get some historical perspective). This is all just my pro-hobbyist attempt to make some people's lives easier, especially mine. I mean, currently, the "Unix" command line is quite a zoo, and not in a positive sense. Also, the number of well-thought-out command-line interfaces doesn't seem to be a growing one. But I guess that could be changed by providing truly easy ways to make good interfaces. -- Michael

3 years, 3 months

Re: [TUHS] Systematic approach to command-line interfaces

by Douglas McIlroy

> one other thing that SLS breaks, for data files, is the whole Unix 'pipe' > abstraction, which is at the heart of the whole Unix tools paradigm. Multics had an IO system with an inherent notion of redirectable data streams. Pipes could have--and eventually did (circa 1987)--fit into that framework. I presume a pipe DIM (device interface manager) was not hard to build once it was proposed and accepted. Doug

3 years, 3 months

Re: [TUHS] Systematic approach to command-line interfaces

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: Larry McVoy > If you read(2) a page and mmap()ed it and then did a write(2) to the > page, the mapped page is the same physical memory as the write()ed > page. Zero coherency issues. Now I'm confused; read() and write() semantically include a copy operation (so there are then two copies of that data chunk, and possible consistency issues between them), and the copied item is not necessarily page-sized (so you can't ensure consistency between the original+copy by mapping it in). So when one does a read(file, &buffer, 1), one gets a _copy of just that byte_ in the process' address space (and similar for write()). Yes, there's no coherency issue between the contents of an mmap()'d page, and the system's idea of what's in that page of the file, but that's a _different_ coherency issue. Or am I confused? PS: > From: "Greg A. Woods" > I now struggle with liking the the Unix concept of "everything is a > file" -- especially with respect to actual data files. Multics also got > it right to use single-level storage -- that's the right abstraction Oh, one other thing that SLS breaks, for data files, is the whole Unix 'pipe' abstraction, which is at the heart of the whole Unix tools paradigm. So no more 'cmd | wc' et al. And since SLS doesn't have the 'make a copy' semantics of pipe output, it would be hard to trivially work around it. Yes, one could build up a similar framework, but each command would have to specify an input file and an output file (no more 'standard in' and 'out'), and then the command interpreter would have to i) take command A's output file and feed it to command B, and ii) delete A's output file when the whole works was done. Yes, the user could do it manually, but compare: cmd aaa | wc and cmd aaa bbb wc bbb rm bbb If bbb is huge, one might run out of room, but with today's 'light my cigar with disk blocks' life, not a problem - but it would involve more disk traffic, as bbb would have to be written out in its entirety, not just have a mall piece kept in the disk cache as with a pipe. Noel

3 years, 3 months

Re: [TUHS] Systematic approach to command-line interfaces

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: "Greg A. Woods" > the elegance of fork() is incredible! That's because in PDP-11 Unix, they didn't have the _room_ to create a huge mess. Try reading the exec() code in V6 or so. (I'm in a bit of a foul mood today; my laptop sorta locked up when a _single_ Edge browser window process grew to almost _2GB_ in size. Are you effing kidding me? If I had any idea what today would look like, back when I was 20 - especially the massive excrement pile that the Internet has turned into - I never would have gone into computers - cabinetwork, or something, would have been an infinitely superior career choice.) > I now struggle with liking the the Unix concept of "everything is a > file" -- especially with respect to actual data files. Multics also got > it right to use single-level storage -- that's the right abstraction Well, files a la Unix, instead of the SLS, are OK for a _lot_ of data storage - pretty much everything except less-common cases like concurrent access to a shared database, etc. Where the SLS really shines is _code_ - being able to just do a subroutine call to interact with something else has incredible bang/buck ratio - although I concede doing it all securely is hard (although they did make a lot of progress there). Noel

3 years, 3 months

Thompson trojan put into practice

by Douglas McIlroy

>> > It's part of my academic project to work on provable compiler security. >> > I tried to do it according to the "Reflections on Trusting Trust" by Ken >> > Thompson, not only to show a compiler Trojan horse but also to prove that >> > we can discover it. >> >> Of course it can be discovered if you look for it. What was impressive about >> the folks who got Thompson's compiler at PWB is that they found the horse >> even though they weren't looking for it. > I had not heard this story. Can you elaborate, please? My impression from having > read the paper (a long time ago now) is that Ken did the experiment locally only. Ken did it locally, but a vigilant person at PWB noticed there was an experimental compiler on the research machine and grabbed it. While they weren't looking for hidden stuff, they probably were trying to find what was new in the compiler. Ken may know details about what they had in the way of source and binary. Doug

3 years, 3 months

Thompson trojan put into practice

by Douglas McIlroy

> It's part of my academic project to work on provable compiler security. > I tried to do it according to the "Reflections on Trusting Trust" by Ken > Thompson, not only to show a compiler Trojan horse but also to prove that > we can discover it. Of course it can be discovered if you look for it. What was impressive about the folks who got Thompson's compiler at PWB is that they found the horse even though they weren't looking for it. Then there was the first time Jim Reeds and I turned on integrity control in IX, our multilevel-security version of Research Unix. When it reported a security violation during startup we were sure it was a bug. But no, it had snagged Tom Duff's virus in the act of replication. It surprised Tom as much as it did us, because he thought he'd eradicated it. Doug

3 years, 3 months

Re: [TUHS] Thompson trojan put into practice

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

https://googlethatforyou.com/?q=Tom%20Duff%20Virus Noel

3 years, 3 months

Jump to page:

2025

2024

2023

2022

2021

2020

2019

2018

2017

2016

2015

2014

2013

2012

2011

2010

2009

2008

2007

2006

2005

2004

2003

2002

2001

2000

1999

1998

1997

1996

1995

1994

1993

1992

1991

1990

TUHS