<Ok, there is a Wilson emulator: E11 which (apparently) runs on DOS
<boxen.
Have it but, the point is to run it on a hardware -11 afterall, I have one.
<KSERVE is the name, as a previous poster has pointed out (thanx).
Went and got it, now I have to transfer it and asm it.
<If the image is on another machine, then use KERMIT + KSERVE.
<
<If not, I guess COPY /DEVICE FOO.IMG DL2:
Bingo.
Allison
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There are a few good tricks to get PDP11 with odd configurations to load. The
first is the venerable paper tape bootstrap. It consists of only 8 instructions
(28 bytes) and works on serial ports. It then loads the 'absolute loader'
which will load formatted data (paper tape!). The format is trival
and has checksums and stop/transfer blocks. The trick is to convert the
unix secordary boot loader from V7 or BSD 2.9-2.11 and then you have
mini loader with lots of device drivers. I can provide some of these
programs including the paper tape listings and images (heck, I still have
a working paper tape reader/punch). You can load ANY PDP-11 this way!
Another approach if you have any of the LSI-11 based cpus with microcoded
console emulator is to use the Xinu suite. It does an initial bootstrap
by sending console commands and then loading a binary boostrap.
On the subject of bad blocks, V6 and V7 offered no bad block strategies.
The DEC spec for RK05's was 200 tracks by 12 sectors by 2 surface plus 3
bad block tracks for 4800 blocks plus 72 spare. The media was generally pretty
good, and all Unix versions used 4872 block filesystems. Files-11 (IAS/RSX) was
the only system to offer bad block replacement (I cannot be sure for RSTS).
When bigger disk drives started showing up, like the RM02/3's and RM05, the
usual practive was to buy packs with 'zero' defects.
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Re Heriot-Watt stripped-down 7th Edition...
Warren wrote:
> Anybody in the UK able to read Pete's tape? Pete, can you kermit the files
> off those RL02s?
I did once attempt to read the tape on our department's Kenedy drive
(now disposed of) and managed to get all but a few blocks near the
beginning. It seems to be a pretty standard distribution tape, with a
layout as described in the Unix Programmer's Manual Vol.2 (Jan.1979).
I have a 1600bpi copy (modulo the bad blocks) somewhere (I wonder where
I put it?). I wouldn't bother about making another copy; if anyone
deparately wants to try, I guess I might loan the original. But AFAIK
there's only a couple of Makefiles that differ, and I have those on the
RL02s.
I don't have any version of kermit that will run under 7th Edition on
an 11/23 (the normal versions are too big), but text files are perfectly
easy to copy.
Pete
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<From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE>
<Oh, certainly, the source was available. I would say that that, along
<with the fact that you got it for free, were the only two reasons for
<its rise to fame.
Th paraphrase Lions, It's one we can look at the dirty parts of and the good
ones too. Yes it has warts and we can see them for what they are,
engineering compromizes of the time.
<If you compare Unix with the systems you mention above, most of the
<DEC stuff have had some stuff since the '70s that Unix only got in the
<90s... (Shared libraries and microkernels for instance.)
It begs the question of what is required and what si nice to have?
<What I meant was that development have gone backwards with regards to
<operating systems in the last twenty years. :-)
Yes. Very unfortunate too. Good design is far more rare.
<(Okay, so this is the list for Unixes on the PDP-11, so I'll defend
<that particualr Unix. It's still clean and mean, which was the purpose
<of the design, and not the overbloated monster called Unix
<nowadays...)
Somehow I find that to be the central point. I apply the same rule to CP/M
for z80s.
Fully thing there is a groups doing an embedded linux kernal (ELKS) and
they act like doing it on a 16bit machine is majik and something like a
z80 means far to stripped to be of use. Seems they missed the point.
Allison
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<For my 11/34A with 2 RL01 I made with an emulator a bootable V7-RL01-diskim
<I downloaded it under RT-11 with KSERVE from John Wilson (dunno where I
<ftped it) over a serial line onto the second disk. It took some hours,
<but it worked.
How did you write it to the RL01 and what would it take to write it to rl02
assuming rt/kserve. Did you use guarenteed no bad block media?
Allison
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>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se> Sun Sep 14 04:01:55 1997
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From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 97 21:01:55 +0300 (MET DST)
Reply-To: bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Cc: pnt103(a)ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk,
pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Subject: Re: Old PDP-11 UNIX Paper Docs?
In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:13:31 +1000 (EST)
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>In article by pnt103(a)ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk:
>> Warren wrote:
>> > I've got some AUUG newsletters ... One of them mentions
>> > a `Heriot-Watt stripped down 7th Edition',
>>
>> If this is the version I have, which not only came from HWU, but is
>> running on one of their old machines, it's fairly standard. It was
>> build for a 'small machine', meaning one without separate I&D space,
>> such as an 11/34 (mine's on an 11/23 with 128KW and RL02s). There
>> are some extra drivers to support RX02s and stuff, but I think these
>> are just well-known additions from sources such as Boston. There's a
>> makefile to configure and build for a small machine.
>>
>> It's missing some of the larger pieces of software, such as troff (nroff
>> is there, and the troff source AFAIR) and Fortran, and the tty driver is
>> modified (bigger!), but most other things seem to be 'normal'.
>>
>> I have the source on 800bpi magtape (pity my drive is only 1600bpi) and
>> also most of it on RL02, though the RL02s are a bit disorganised.
>>
>> Pete
>
>Anybody in the UK able to read Pete's tape? Pete, can you kermit the files
>off those RL02s?
If the need is large enough, I can roll out a TU77 and connect it to Magica
to read the stuff. That means Sweden, though...
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
CS student at Uppsala University || on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se> Sun Sep 14 04:09:43 1997
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From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 97 21:09:43 +0300 (MET DST)
Reply-To: bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se
To: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Bootstrap Idea
In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 11 Sep 1997 22:43:28 -0400
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>Not true. They all did as bad blocks have been a fact of life for all
>computers since day one. Some of the ealy unixes used crude methods
>from a perfomance standoint but, the bad block replacement was there.
Well, not day one, but that come pretty early. Quality of the magnetic
media wasn't really that good back then, so you usually *had* to
expect a few bad spots on any disk.
On PDP-11's, I would supect that Unix went with DEC's BAD144 standard
pretty fast. (When did that standard come, btw?)
>Do read LIONS commentary. I was able to get a copy from the local library
>here in eastern MA (USA) along with several books on BSD design. Unix was
>really ahead of the pack on many things.
Not to be a pain in the ass or so, but in what ways was Unix ahead of
anything?
Unix was just a small hack inspired by Multics, and looking at contemporary
operating systems, I'd say there were some that were way ahead of Unix (and
still are...)
Operating systems in the last twenty years have really retro-developed. :-)
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
CS student at Uppsala University || on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se> Sun Sep 14 04:22:21 1997
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From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 97 21:22:21 +0300 (MET DST)
Reply-To: bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se
To: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: UNIX for PDP-11: moving on to media
In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 13 Sep 1997 13:26:17 -0400
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><For my 11/34A with 2 RL01 I made with an emulator a bootable V7-RL01-diskim
><I downloaded it under RT-11 with KSERVE from John Wilson (dunno where I
><ftped it) over a serial line onto the second disk. It took some hours,
><but it worked.
>
>How did you write it to the RL01 and what would it take to write it to rl02
>assuming rt/kserve. Did you use guarenteed no bad block media?
Most RL02 are pretty good. Usually they don't have any bad spots in my
experience.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
CS student at Uppsala University || on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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<Most RL02 are pretty good. Usually they don't have any bad spots in my
<experience.
They were low in defects<frequently none> but there was remaping so platters
with bad blocks were invisible to the system mangler/user. I just tossed a
pack that had developed more bad blocks then could be managed.
Allison
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>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se> Sun Sep 14 08:49:54 1997
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From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 97 1:49:54 +0300 (MET DST)
Reply-To: bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se
To: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: UNIX for PDP-11: moving on to media
In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 13 Sep 1997 17:58:38 -0400
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>
><Most RL02 are pretty good. Usually they don't have any bad spots in my
><experience.
>
>They were low in defects<frequently none> but there was remaping so platters
>with bad blocks were invisible to the system mangler/user. I just tossed a
>pack that had developed more bad blocks then could be managed.
No exacly invisible... The operating system had to be aware of the bad spots,
and invent some scheme or other to hide the spots from the user.
OS/8's solution is rather hairy. I know, since I didn't have a "formatter"
program, so I needed to write one, given the source of the device driver...
Bad spots on MSCP disks on the other hand are totally invisible.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
CS student at Uppsala University || on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se> Sun Sep 14 08:55:55 1997
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From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 97 1:55:55 +0300 (MET DST)
Reply-To: bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se
To: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Bootstrap Idea
In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 13 Sep 1997 17:58:31 -0400
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><Unix was just a small hack inspired by Multics, and looking at contemporar
><operating systems, I'd say there were some that were way ahead of Unix (an
><still are...)
>
>yes, but as hacks go it was more public in code than other OSs of value in
>that time frame. I'm not saying was the best. Also I've never used
>multics. My experience in chronological order is OS/8, TOPS-10, CP/M-80,
>NS*dos<z80>, RT-11, RSTS, RSX-11, VMS, Ultrix. So those are what I have to
>look at when thinking in terms of 1970s OSs like Unix of the time.
Oh, certainly, the source was available. I would say that that, along
with the fact that you got it for free, were the only two reasons for
its rise to fame.
If you compare Unix with the systems you mention above, most of the
DEC stuff have had some stuff since the '70s that Unix only got in the
90s... (Shared libraries and microkernels for instance.)
><Operating systems in the last twenty years have really retro-developed. :-
>
>If you mean what I think the answer is not here. If anything my view is
>more of when will dos/winders perform as well as some of those OSs of the
>time. Then again, I had VMS4.6 running decwindows and four users on a
>microvaxII with 9meg and 3 RD53s in 1989.
What I meant was that development have gone backwards with regards to
operating systems in the last twenty years. :-)
Who knows how many things Microsoft has reinvented in the last few
years, and Unix hasn't been much better either...
(Okay, so this is the list for Unixes on the PDP-11, so I'll defend
that particualr Unix. It's still clean and mean, which was the purpose
of the design, and not the overbloated monster called Unix
nowadays...)
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
CS student at Uppsala University || on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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<Unix was just a small hack inspired by Multics, and looking at contemporar
<operating systems, I'd say there were some that were way ahead of Unix (an
<still are...)
yes, but as hacks go it was more public in code than other OSs of value in
that time frame. I'm not saying was the best. Also I've never used
multics. My experience in chronological order is OS/8, TOPS-10, CP/M-80,
NS*dos<z80>, RT-11, RSTS, RSX-11, VMS, Ultrix. So those are what I have to
look at when thinking in terms of 1970s OSs like Unix of the time.
<Operating systems in the last twenty years have really retro-developed. :-
If you mean what I think the answer is not here. If anything my view is
more of when will dos/winders perform as well as some of those OSs of the
time. Then again, I had VMS4.6 running decwindows and four users on a
microvaxII with 9meg and 3 RD53s in 1989.
Allison
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On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Warren Toomey wrote:
> All,
> I had an idea about bootstrapping images into PDP-11s, please shoot
> it down! Ok, I don't know much about the -11 hardware, how hard would it
> be to bootstrap as follows:
>
> hand-toggle in a small bit of code, which
> sucks in a bigger bootstrap over a serial line, which
> then can pull in a disk image over the serial line & write to disk
Well I've started to use this approach allready and have written most of
the code. My scenario is that I have an 11/34 with one RK05, and no other
operating systems. I have access to almost unlimited number of PDP-11
serial cards, and other unix boxes.
The PDP 11 is configured with two serial ports, one the standard serial
console, the other a 9600 baud serial line. These go to the two serial
ports on my PC running (which incendtally runs linux). First I send a
program (binary) as console emulator instructions to the PDP on the
console line. This program is basically a hacked version of
/mdec/tboot.s (TU10 boot) which provides getc() and putc() and other bits
and bobs. It reads in from console a number (rather than a file name)
which is the length of the program to load. This is read in from the
second serial port and loaded into memory. I then jump to this and start
going.
So the procedure is (1) Load tboot.s via console (2) load RKF to format
RK-05 (this works fine) (2) load the copy program whose name escapes me at
the moment, and transfer the tape image to the RK-05. (3) Boot the RK-05.
This seemed to work, and progress was only interupted by the need to move
the PDP-11 from Cambridge to home! I have copies of all the programs
which need a little finishing off, but I could let people have copies if
they are interested. Incidentally I assembled the on Supnik's emulator
and then punched them out to the virtual PTP.
In fact I also have a longish document which goes through the entire
process with all the code (and some new comments) to try and explain how
it all works.
All this was done using V5 unix code btw.
>
> Flaws: need different bootstraps for different disks
> need different bootstraps for different serial hardware
> how to deal with bad blocks?
> very slooow
>
> Other problems: 5th, 6th Edition came as RK05 images. We could probably
> build images for different drives.
> 7th Edition did a mkfs during installation, but I don't know if
> bad blocks were ever dealt with.
>
> Anyway, this solution would allow a simple program + disk images to be
> put on your nearby PC running Linux/whatever, so no tapes or tape drives
> would be required.
It is slow -- but that doesn't matter if you can go somewhere else while
it happens (as long as your RK-05 doesn't catch fire)
Alan
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>All,
> I had an idea about bootstrapping images into PDP-11s, please shoot
>it down! Ok, I don't know much about the -11 hardware, how hard would it
>be to bootstrap as follows:
>
> hand-toggle in a small bit of code, which
> sucks in a bigger bootstrap over a serial line, which
> then can pull in a disk image over the serial line & write to disk
Well, for what it's worth here's my contribution. I have been able to
set up working v5 and v6 systems on my 11/34c (which uses an RK05
drive) uisng the distributed images (thanks Warren).
The key here I think is to make use of the excellent work that has
been already done on the various PDP-11 emulators. The emulator I use
is that of Bob Supnic, which runs wonderfully on my Linux box.
v6 is available as an image of a tape. The docs helpfully say:
This is a copy of the Sixth Edition distribution tape which was sent
to me by Ken Wellsch. The file v6.tape.gz is the tape image, with the
first 100 512-byte tape blocks containing tape bootstrap stuff. Blocks
100 - 4099 are the RK05 root image, blocks 4100 - 8099 are the /usr
RK05 image, and the blocks 8100 - 12099 are the /doc RK05 image.
It is trivial with the UNIX command dd to split the tape image into
its constituent parts:
1) Tape bootstap (useless for me)
2) RK05 root image
3) RK05 /usr image
4) RK05 /doc image
I can then start the Supnic emulator, attach the three RK05 images to
drives 0, 1 and 2 and boot. My system has only a single RK05 drive. As
a result I had to mess around in the emulator to create a fresh RK05
image containing a useful subset of the root and /usr images. In
practice it's not too hard to get v6 onto a single RK05 pack -- I
think it's only necessary to lose stuff like the spell disctionary and
so on.
I also wanted support for a second DL11 serial line, so I used the
emulator (and some extra emulated disk space) to rebuild the kernel.
Once I was happy with the disk image I'd created, it was time to
transfer it to real hardware. My 11/34c runs RT11 and I was able to
get hold of a small stripped down Kermit server-only program from John
Wilson. I forget the name of this utility, but it's available from
ftp.dbit.com. The stardard RT11 Kermit that I have is unable to
transfer entire disk images, the Wilson implementation can do so.
Booting the 11/34c from RX01 floppy (one RK05 drive only, remember) I
ran the Kermit server. From the PC end it was straightforward to
transfer the image: "PUT imagefile.img RK01:". Aside from a
spectacular RK05 head crash that put my machine out of action for a
while, all was well.
For v7, I started with a single RL02 image. That would boot on the
simulator. I added a couple of emulated RK05s to the emulator set up
and proceded to build a single RK05 which would (just!) hold a
bootable v7 image. I warn you that v7 on a 2.5Mb disk is tight, but it
can be done. Having built the image, I rebuilt the kernel to enable
RK05 support (and a second serial line, again) and disable the other
disk drivers. That kernel went onto my new image. Again, the same
Kermit trick enabled the image to be transferred to the 11/34a.
If anyone wants these RK05 bootable image files, please let me know
(rjm(a)swift.eng.ox.ac.uk - not this address)!
A few points though:
1) RK05s packs _can not have_ bad blocks. There is no bad block
revectoring on these drives. A bad block on a pack suggests the pack
is ready for the dumpster. This makes life a little easier. I'm not
sure how you'd deal with bad block revectoring on an RL01/RL02 for
example. I guess it's not too hard, but I shan't speculate there.
2) My 11/73, on the other hand, uses an RD53 (last time I looked). I'm
not sure if the emulator can deal with these kind of drives. In any
case, support for MSCP drives only came with 2BSD, which I've not
played with. Maybe the same emulator tricks can be employed to get
RDxx images, modulo the bad blocks problem.
3) If you don't have a PDP-11 operating system running, the Kermit
approach won't be much use. There may be a stand-alone file transfer
program that can write to raw devices. No idea -- perhaps someone
needs to write this (both for the PDP and the PC ends).
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Bob
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Manners (My REAL address is: rjm(a)swift.eng.ox.ac.uk)
BOB'S COMPUTER MUSEUM: http://swift.eng.ox.ac.uk/rjm/museum.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi,
<Allison, you got a copy? I emailed Dan Ts'o to get a copy, but haven't hear
<back from him yet.
I got it off the net in one of the archive sites. I have the sources (in C)
for it.
<The early Unixes didn't have a concept of bad blocks. This will always
<be a pain.
Not true. They all did as bad blocks have been a fact of life for all
computers since day one. Some of the ealy unixes used crude methods
from a perfomance standoint but, the bad block replacement was there.
Do read LIONS commentary. I was able to get a copy from the local library
here in eastern MA (USA) along with several books on BSD design. Unix was
really ahead of the pack on many things.
Allison
Hi,
RE: booting
< hand-toggle in a small bit of code, which
< sucks in a bigger bootstrap over a serial line, which
< then can pull in a disk image over the serial line & write to disk
Depending on the hardware many of the qbus 11s have ODT, MOP(serial line),
MOP(sync line), TU58, rx01/2 and tu58 boots in rom. It's handy to untilize
this. I will not comment on unibus machines as I'm not experinced on those.
I favor the MOP boot with a mop responder on a PC to load a loader. The key
is to load small program by hand that loads a more complex loader.
<Other problems: 5th, 6th Edition came as RK05 images. We could probably
< build images for different drives.
There lies two problems, the drivers expect RK05. The other is the images
may already expect bad block to either not exist or have been remapped off
the source device (meaning the BB map copies too).
< 7th Edition did a mkfs during installation, but I don't know if
< bad blocks were ever dealt with.
There is s difference between an install and starting up a coped image that
is an already installed system.
<Anyway, this solution would allow a simple program + disk images to be
<put on your nearby PC running Linux/whatever, so no tapes or tape drives
<would be required.
There is already a program out there that emulates the serial interfaced
TU58 and while limited by the serial line speed the emulation seeks faster
than tape as it used ram or file space on disk.
<I've used this method on another hardware platform to move disk images
<in/out. It is slow, but it works.
Same here for non-pdp systems.
Allison
<From djenner(a)halcyon.com Thu Sep 11 16:01:12 1997
<It will be great to have everything on a CD-ROM, but that probably won't
<help a majority of users bootstrap up a system, since most won't have a
<CD-ROM or maybe even no operating system to start with. We are going to
<have to find someone(s) who is (are) willing to make up a standard
<distribution tape (9-track or otherwise) or floppies (is that
<possible?). This could really be the biggest hurdle to getting a system
<running on many machines.
The sysboot certainly can be floppy and the system can be broken down to
multiple floppy volumes for installation. I may also be possible to use a
vax to read the CDrom and cut a tape(9track or tk50) from that as well.
This of course is predicated on the cdrom.
The V6 and V7 binaries however already exist and are available, getting
one of them onto a 11/73 and written out as non-image files would help
greatly.
Allison
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Sep 12 09:13:31 1997
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199709112313.JAA08771(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Old PDP-11 UNIX Paper Docs?
To: pnt103(a)ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:13:31 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <swordfish.873966148(a)ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk> from "pnt103(a)ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk" at "Sep 11, 97 09:21:25 am"
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In article by pnt103(a)ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk:
> Warren wrote:
> > I've got some AUUG newsletters ... One of them mentions
> > a `Heriot-Watt stripped down 7th Edition',
>
> If this is the version I have, which not only came from HWU, but is
> running on one of their old machines, it's fairly standard. It was
> build for a 'small machine', meaning one without separate I&D space,
> such as an 11/34 (mine's on an 11/23 with 128KW and RL02s). There
> are some extra drivers to support RX02s and stuff, but I think these
> are just well-known additions from sources such as Boston. There's a
> makefile to configure and build for a small machine.
>
> It's missing some of the larger pieces of software, such as troff (nroff
> is there, and the troff source AFAIR) and Fortran, and the tty driver is
> modified (bigger!), but most other things seem to be 'normal'.
>
> I have the source on 800bpi magtape (pity my drive is only 1600bpi) and
> also most of it on RL02, though the RL02s are a bit disorganised.
>
> Pete
Anybody in the UK able to read Pete's tape? Pete, can you kermit the files
off those RL02s?
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Sep 12 09:31:22 1997
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199709112331.JAA09209(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Bootstrap Idea
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:31:22 +1000 (EST)
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All,
I had an idea about bootstrapping images into PDP-11s, please shoot
it down! Ok, I don't know much about the -11 hardware, how hard would it
be to bootstrap as follows:
hand-toggle in a small bit of code, which
sucks in a bigger bootstrap over a serial line, which
then can pull in a disk image over the serial line & write to disk
Flaws: need different bootstraps for different disks
need different bootstraps for different serial hardware
how to deal with bad blocks?
very slooow
Other problems: 5th, 6th Edition came as RK05 images. We could probably
build images for different drives.
7th Edition did a mkfs during installation, but I don't know if
bad blocks were ever dealt with.
Anyway, this solution would allow a simple program + disk images to be
put on your nearby PC running Linux/whatever, so no tapes or tape drives
would be required.
I've used this method on another hardware platform to move disk images
in/out. It is slow, but it works.
Warren
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Warren,
<assuming I [ have RT-11/ RSX / no operating system ] on the PDP-11 already
This is the tough part as PDP-11s run a wide variety of OSs. If you have
RT-11 (most common) you likely ok. But even then it can influence you
choice of devices. IE: RTv4 knows nothing of TK50 and RQDXn controllers
and v5.1 does. This is true for RSTS and RSX too.
The other is how to get it onto the required media. CDrom is largely PC
hardware. If the disk is readable using dos/linux it's fairly easy, though
the right supplied utility can help if not. PCs with the right hardware and
software can create RX50 and RX33 media, TU58 has been done, RX01 with more
effort. SCSI disk are not common on PDP-11s so that is a low yeild path
though they also can be done. The PDP-11 world peripheral wise divides
across what bus you have Q or U and that influences what peripherals you
likely to have.
The how of taking one of those binaries and moving to the PDP-11 has eluded
me for a while. I have been told it is not possible as they are image files
and if you copy an image of an RL02 to an RL02 you better have then same or
fewer bad blocks as the image may land on one making it useless.
I have been going through some of these gyrations with netBSD for the VAX
and they have set of problem that would be common to PDP-11. Check out
their FAQs on this for hints and solutions.
Allison
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>From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Fri Sep 12 02:01:12 1997
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To: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au>
CC: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: UNIX for PDP-11: moving on to media
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Warren,
I think you are exactly correct when you say these are the first two
eminent, and imminent questions about PDP-11 Unix. They have frequently
occurred to me as I drool in anticipation over the possibility of
running 2.11BSD on an 11/73!
Maybe you or a 2.11BSD expert (Steve Schultz?) could find the "release
notes" for 2.11BSD and post them, if that's legal now. That would
answer a lot of questions about how to configure a machine or whether a
particular machine could handle it. Maybe the release notes from two or
three different versions could cover a great majority of potential
users; your survey might answer that.
It will be great to have everything on a CD-ROM, but that probably won't
help a majority of users bootstrap up a system, since most won't have a
CD-ROM or maybe even no operating system to start with. We are going to
have to find someone(s) who is (are) willing to make up a standard
distribution tape (9-track or otherwise) or floppies (is that
possible?). This could really be the biggest hurdle to getting a system
running on many machines.
Dave
Warren Toomey wrote:
>
> In article by Allison J Parent:
> >
> > <See the petition hyperlinked on http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/
> >
> > I've done the petition.
> >
> > <Hopefully (soon) you will be able to buy one from SCO for about US$100.
> > <You can get the binaries for v6 and v7, see Bob Supnik's PDP-11 emulator
> > <on the same web page.
> >
> > I also know of the binaries for v6 and v7 at several sites for emulator use.
> >
> > What is unclear is how to get those binaries onto a real PDP-11 such as my
> > 11/73 and if the devices I have are even supported.
>
> Sorry for the misunderstanding Allison!
>
> Actually, that's a very good question. As I'm not a hardware person, I'll
> pass this over to the other PUPS mailing list members. If/when SCO start
> selling licenses & we make CD-ROMs or FTP sites available, this question
> is going to come up an awful lot:
>
> Question 1
> ----------
>
> How do I get a Unix distribution onto:
>
> - a tape, because I have a tape drive
>
> - a disk drive, as I don't have a tape drive
>
> assuming I [ have RT-11/ RSX / no operating system ] on the PDP-11 already.
>
> Question 2
> ----------
>
> I have [ this particular CPU and this list of other peripherals ].
> What version(s) of Unix can I run on this PDP-11?
>
> Can anybody help out with answers to Question 1? Bits & pieces of Question 2
> are answered on the PUPS web pages, but they need expanding.
>
> Thanks in advance for any information, and any programs (boot code etc)
> that I can add in to the PUPS archive!!
>
> Warren
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Mahlzeit
According to Warren Toomey:
> Question 1
> ----------
>
> How do I get a Unix distribution onto:
>
> - a tape, because I have a tape drive
>
> - a disk drive, as I don't have a tape drive
>
> assuming I [ have RT-11/ RSX / no operating system ] on the PDP-11 already.
For my 11/34A with 2 RL01 I made with an emulator a bootable V7-RL01-diskimage.
I downloaded it under RT-11 with KSERVE from John Wilson (dunno where I
ftped it) over a serial line onto the second disk. It took some hours,
but it worked.
Mahlzeit
endergone Zwiebeltuete
--
insanity inside
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All,
While I'm thinking of it, does anybody have any old Usenix, EUUG,
AUUG etc. newsletters, papers, conference proceedings? Some of these have
details about fitting various UNIX flavours onto various PDP-11s, plus other
useful information. Anyone care to scan stuff in?
I've got some AUUG newsletters dating from 1980 onwards. One of them mentions
a `Heriot-Watt stripped down 7th Edition', which looks like it comes from
Heriot-Watt University in Edinburgh, UK. Does anybody have any knowledge of
this version of 7th Edition?
Warren
<See the petition hyperlinked on http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/
I've done the petition.
<Hopefully (soon) you will be able to buy one from SCO for about US$100.
<You can get the binaries for v6 and v7, see Bob Supnik's PDP-11 emulator
<on the same web page.
I also know of the binaries for v6 and v7 at several sites for emulator use.
What is unclear is how to get those binaries onto a real PDP-11 such as my
11/73 and if the devices I have are even supported.
Allison
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Sep 11 14:49:53 1997
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199709110449.OAA17004(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: UNIX for PDP-11: moving on to media
To: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:49:53 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199709110441.AA09464(a)world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Sep 11, 97 00:41:08 am"
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In article by Allison J Parent:
>
> <See the petition hyperlinked on http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/
>
> I've done the petition.
>
> <Hopefully (soon) you will be able to buy one from SCO for about US$100.
> <You can get the binaries for v6 and v7, see Bob Supnik's PDP-11 emulator
> <on the same web page.
>
> I also know of the binaries for v6 and v7 at several sites for emulator use.
>
> What is unclear is how to get those binaries onto a real PDP-11 such as my
> 11/73 and if the devices I have are even supported.
Sorry for the misunderstanding Allison!
Actually, that's a very good question. As I'm not a hardware person, I'll
pass this over to the other PUPS mailing list members. If/when SCO start
selling licenses & we make CD-ROMs or FTP sites available, this question
is going to come up an awful lot:
Question 1
----------
How do I get a Unix distribution onto:
- a tape, because I have a tape drive
- a disk drive, as I don't have a tape drive
assuming I [ have RT-11/ RSX / no operating system ] on the PDP-11 already.
Question 2
----------
I have [ this particular CPU and this list of other peripherals ].
What version(s) of Unix can I run on this PDP-11?
Can anybody help out with answers to Question 1? Bits & pieces of Question 2
are answered on the PUPS web pages, but they need expanding.
Thanks in advance for any information, and any programs (boot code etc)
that I can add in to the PUPS archive!!
Warren
Hello,
Curiousity, How does one get a license for a PDP-11 version of unix these
days? I've had an 11/73 I've been itching to run unix on.
Allison
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[Robert has got a copy of System II for PDP-11 on tapes]
> If I had a way to copy the tapes, I would have no problem and i'm not
> even sure what is exactly on the tapes or if they are still good as I've
> never really used them as the Unix III was already loaded on disks when I
> got them PDP-11/34 from Bell Labs.
>
> (The sytem was used here in Bell Labs here in Indianapolis, IN to help
> develope the first speech recognition system and I still have most of
> the software "somehwere" on RL01/02 packs, so I'm kinda attached to the
> tapes.)
>
> And, I have a gentleman here that is going to come pick up all my PDP
> stuff in the next month or so for a computer museum he is putting together.
>
> So, if you can copy the tapes, I might be talked in to releasing the
> tapes to you for copying for a good cause.
Robert, I forgot to cc my reply to the others on the PUPS mailing list.
Would anybody in the US be able to look at Robert's tapes to see if we
can recover System III? John Holden just donated System V to the PUPS
archive, so System III would also be a good addition.
Please email to Robert & the mailing list if you are willing to look at
the tapes.
Thanks in advance,
Warren
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I've set up a searchable archive of the mail from the PDP-11 Unix
mailing list, at
http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/cgi-bin/pups.cgi
Let me know of any problems with it. Updates to the archive will be done
manually until I iron out some script bugs!
Warren
Warren wrote:
: If you don't have RK05 or RL02s, someone should be able to build
: a suitable disk image for you. I think you'll need to go 6th Edition
: as you have a /23.
7th Edition runs fine on an 11/23 or 11/34, providing you build the
'small machine' version. I've had 7th on my 11/23 with 256K and 2xRL02 for
years.
Pete
>From Kevin Wright <Kevin.Wright(a)VITREX.com> Tue Sep 2 11:25:46 1997
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From: Kevin Wright <Kevin.Wright(a)VITREX.com>
To: "'wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au'" <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: PDP-11 hardware liquidation
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 19:25:46 -0600
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1-SEP-97
As owner of a PDP-11/23+ system, I know how difficult it can be to find
hardware for older PDP-11's.
I'd like to inform you that I've found a terrific source in Utah for
used DEC hardware including PDP-11 related items. This person has a
2400 sq ft warehouse (about 3 semi truck loads) quite literally brimming
with computer hardware which has been collected and stored over the past
10 years. He is currently in the process of liquidating it at very,
very low prices. Tons of miscellaneous computer equipment is available,
much of which was manufactured by DEC. It would be impossible to list
even a fraction of what he has available, but he has told me that his
inventory includes approximately 1000 Q-Bus and Unibus boards, plus
peripheral devices such as disk and tape drives. I've not been to the
warehouse in person yet , but I will be visiting the site in about 2
weeks time from now.
If interested, you should be aware that he is in the process of getting
rid of EVERYTHING! It sounds like it will all be gone in the next 3 to
4 weeks.
Opportunities like this very seldom come along, so please contact me via
email if you are interested in finding out more. I'll be happy to
forward to you, any needed information that I can.
Please feel free to forward this notice to anyone you think might be
interested.
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Sep 3 16:23:06 1997
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199709030623.QAA07853(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: PUPS Mailing List - Now Majordomo
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:23:06 +1000 (EST)
Cc: wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
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All,
I've just moved the PUPS (old PDP-11 Unix) mailing list over
to run under MajorDomo. I'm still learning MajorDomo, so there might be
some teething troubles.
The new list is called:
pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Can you update any aliases that point to this list. I will keep the original
/etc/aliases mailing list oldunix(a)cs.adfa.oz.au around for a while
until I'm sure the new one works fine.
As with MajorDomo, you can send messages to get off the mailing list.
Please let me know of any problems.
Updates: SCO Petition, CD-R writers etc.
----------------------------------------
Ok, we're still chatting with SCO. I got a summary of internal mail which
shows that there are 2 sides in SCO, those who think it's a good idea (PR-wise
at least) and those who can't see the point & who think it's a can of worms.
I feel that the people on our side are winning. I've been trying to explain
the history of some of the UNIX flavours to their legal eagle, who must know
recent history only. I think we can iron things out.
Several people from Europe & the US said that they had access to a CD-R
writer, & could write CDs, if that became the distribution method for
passing on the PUPS archive.
I will probably go buy a new X-Gig disk to give the archive a proper FTP
home. I've come up with a new archive layout & will pass it on to you all
for comments. Anyway, it looks like progress is being made & we should be
able to buy personal UNIX licenses soon :-).
More updates to the list as things happen. Thanks for your suport!!
Warren wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
In article by Mark D. Roth:
> Warren,
>
> I have a PDP-11/03-L at home that I rescued from Bell+Howell Corp and
> know next to nothing about. I'm looking for any info I might be able
> to find on how to get this machine running, as well as any info I
> might find about getting a Unix implementation for it.
I don't think you'll get Unix running on an /03, I just searched thru the
paper archives here and I've seen references to /23's, /34's, 40's on up,
but not for /03's. I'd suspect that the /03 doesn't have the memory management
(nor the memory) to get Unix running.
> I saw reference to a mailing list on the webpage, but no information
> on how to join. What can you tell me?
Mark, I'll add you to the list, and bounce this there as well; someone
with more knowledge of -11 hardware should be able to set us both straight
with regards to 11/03's.
Cheers,
Warren
>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mon Aug 11 13:53:16 1997
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Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 20:53:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199708110353.UAA21891(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: roth(a)uiuc.edu, wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: PUPS
Cc: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Warren, Mark -
> In article by Mark D. Roth:
> > I have a PDP-11/03-L at home that I rescued from Bell+Howell Corp and
> > know next to nothing about. I'm looking for any info I might be able
>
> I don't think you'll get Unix running on an /03, I just searched thru the
Quite correct.
> paper archives here and I've seen references to /23's, /34's, 40's on up,
> but not for /03's. I'd suspect that the /03 doesn't have the memory management
> (nor the memory) to get Unix running.
Warren - you're absolutely right. The 11/03 has a maximum memory
(most were not fully populated) of 56kbytes and _no_ memory
management. Any Unix (since the initial one on the PDP-7) requires
at least two memory management states: kernel and user. Much later
versions can take advantage of the 3rd mode (supervisor).
Smallest machine I ever ran Unix on was an 11/23 (the development
was done on a 11/70 because various programs were too large to run
on a non split I/D machine such as the 11/23) and it was, shall we
say, "interesting". Just enough memory (max of 248kb) to run one or
two user processes at a time (we had a rather large kernel and some
homebrew communications drivers) - you could get logged in and then
each time you typed a command the shell would get swapped out to run
your command ;).
> Mark, I'll add you to the list, and bounce this there as well; someone
> with more knowledge of -11 hardware should be able to set us both straight
> with regards to 11/03's.
You got it right - nothing to set straight.
Steven Schultz
>From George Coulouris <George.Coulouris(a)dcs.qmw.ac.uk> Fri Aug 22 01:49:53 1997
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References: <199708062322.JAA03135(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from "Warren
Toomey" at Aug 7, 97 09:22:07 am
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Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 16:49:53 +0100
To: Michael Engel <engel(a)numerik.math.uni-siegen.de>
From: George Coulouris <George.Coulouris(a)dcs.qmw.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: George's PDP Tape in UK
Cc: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk>, wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey),
oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Dear Michael,
Many thanks for your offer. Sorry for the delay in replying. If you are
still willing I would like to take up your offer. If you will mail me your
physical mail address, I'll send you the tape. As far as I can remember the
tape is a UNIX tar archive, that should be readable on the VMS machine and
you could give the files back to me by ftp.
(I'm taking up your offer rather than Tim Bradshaw's because you seem to
have had more recent success with reading old tapes.
Thanks again,
George
At 9:39 am +0100 7/8/97, Michael Engel wrote:
* >
* We have a TU81+ 9 track tape connected to a VMS Alpha here. So, if you send
* me the tape, I will try to read it. Worked perfectly some months ago for a
* 10 yr. old tape from a DECsystem 10 ...
*
At 3:22 pm +0100 7/8/97, Tim Bradshaw wrote:
*
* We have old-tape-reading-technology, so we could give it a try. No
* promises at all though (I have to turn the drive back on &c, and it's
* not altogether clear that it will work, though it did last time I
* tried it), asnd it will take me ages to get around to it, being very
* inefficient...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
George F. Coulouris | Computer Science Dept
Professor of Computer Systems | QMW, University of London
WWW: http://www.dcs.qmw.ac.uk/~george | Mile End Road
Phone: +44 171 975 5201 (direct line) | London E1 4NS
Fax: +44 181 980 6533 | United Kingdom
Home phone: +44 171 485 5896 |
pager: 01426 183113 |
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Aug 27 10:45:58 1997
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199708270045.KAA03801(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Latest PDP-11 UNIX email from SCO
To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 10:45:58 +1000 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
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All,
Here is the latest email from SCO with regards to PDP-11 UNIX
source licenses. I'll add one comment at the bottom.
Please treat this as YOUR EYES ONLY. I haven't got permission from Dion
to forward this on (yet), but I think that more pairs of eyes than just
mine need to have a look at it for any problems.
----- Forwarded message from Dion -----
From: Dion <dionj(a)sco.COM>
X-Mailer: SCO OpenServer Mail Release 5.0
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Touching Base!
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 97 12:45:07 PDT
Warren,
Good progress. We have some positive consensus developing.
Here is the proposed license terms (roughly, not fully legalized
yet). Please let me know if you see any problems with this
proposal:
Here are the terms that I think make sense:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
License terms:
* the license covers the entire distributions (source code, binaries and
documentation) of the following versions of UNIX:
o 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th Edition UNIX
o 32V UNIX
o PWB/UNIX
o those portions of all 2BSD releases which are derived from UNIX
source code
* licensees have these rights wrt the binaries and source code of the above
versions of UNIX:
use
store
reproduce
edit
adapt
enchance
improve
otherwise modify
transmit electronically
repackage
* These rights are licensed to noncommercial users. The source may
not be sold nor used to develop commercial versions of UNIX.
* licensees have the right to install UNIX binaries on PDP-11 hardware and
PDP-11 emulating software
* licensees have the right to allow noncommercial use the UNIX binaries on
systems for which the product is licensed.
(Note that the latter is already permitted, given SCO's binary license
agreement for 5th, 6th and 7th Edition UNIX. We would also be happy with the
following conditions imposed in the source code and binary license for
PDP-11 UNIXes)
* license is not transferable.
* source code covered by the license cannot be distributed or disclosed
to people not covered by the license. The licensees are permitted to
collaborate on modifications and mutually share their modifications.
* SCO is not required to provide copies of any source code, binaries or
documentation with the source code and binary license for PDP-11 UNIXes
License Fee: SCO charges a one-time license fee of $100 per licensee,
for a site license for one organization.
We may, at some future time, provide source distributions (if/when
we can find the sources), but this is not committed. We know that
the licensees have, between them, most of the needed sources.
----- End of forwarded message from Dion -----
My comment. The only thing I want to change is:
* licensees have the right to install UNIX binaries on PDP-11 hardware
and PDP-11 emulating software
becomes
* licensees have the right to install UNIX software on PDP-11 hardware
and PDP-11 emulating software
This allows us to install source so as to modify it or to rebuild kernels etc.
I briefly raised the issue of source distribution (SCO or me? FTP or CD-ROM?),
but I suggested that we leave it until the licenses go on sale.
Please email your comments on this to the mailing list
(oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)
Thanks,
Warren wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Aug 27 15:51:20 1997
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199708270551.PAA00316(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Latest PDP-11 UNIX email from SCO
To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:51:20 +1000 (EST)
Cc: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <199708270539.WAA16297(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Aug 26, 97 10:39:11 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
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In article by Steven M. Schultz:
> It looks to me that SCO has granted "us" every single thing we were
> asking for.
I've thought of a few more changes:
In the wording from SCO, the status of `documentation' is unclear. The
following should clear this up:
+ use the term software == `source, binaries and documentation' in many
places where this is appropriate.
+ use the term `source' only where they want to restrict to licensees.
+ also, don't disclose `source' to people not covered by the SCO license
or by existing UNIX software licenses from Western Electric and AT&T.
Comments anybody?
Warren
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Aug 29 11:43:09 1997
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199708290143.LAA03340(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Latest PDP-11 UNIX email from SCO
To: mcjones(a)pa.dec.com
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 11:43:09 +1000 (EST)
Cc: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <9708281506.AA29078(a)numbat05-an2.pa.dec.com> from "mcjones(a)pa.dec.com" at "Aug 28, 97 08:06:23 am"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
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In article by mcjones(a)pa.dec.com:
>
> > Maybe someone else can volunteer, if I organise the contents :-)
>
> There's one here at my workplace. I don't know how to use it myself.
> I could probably get some help in burning one or two, but I don't
> think it would be appropriate to burn dozens or hundreds. How many
> licensees do you anticipate?
There's 300 signatures on the petition. I'd hope that 1/2 of those
will buy licenses, and probably most would like the stuff in easy-to-use
form.
I know that Steven Schultz has access to a writer too (hint hint!).
I will probably buy another hard disk here for the PDP archive, and give
access to license holders.
I'd like to get users to suggest layout changes & what should be exploded
etc. so that we can burn a 650M CD image directly from the archive.
Currently, the archive is sitting at 250M, so there's room to explode
many of the distributions stored there.
We also need to sit down and catalogue this stuff so that it's not
just a collection of random tapes. I'm slowly doing this & have done
the most important stuff, see the Tapes/DETAILS file if you ftp in.
But more work needs to be done.
So hopefully, we can pass the archive (as a Rock Ridge image) to a few
volunteers to burn CD-R copies. Anybody in Europe who would volunteer?
Just an idea!
Warren
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sun Aug 31 12:41:29 1997
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199708310241.MAA04803(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Unix CD-ROM archive burn
To: Kevin.Wright(a)VITREX.com (Kevin Wright)
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 12:41:29 +1000 (EST)
Cc: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <B0620B9317B0D0119D3C0060976CE96418B8(a)nt-main.vitrex.com> from Kevin Wright at "Aug 29, 97 09:24:27 am"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
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In article by Kevin Wright:
> I could very possibly volunteer to do one. I have access to my
> companies cdrom burner.
>
> Subject change:
> I own a PDP-11/23+ for which I'm constantly searching the Internet for
> RT-11 and TSX+ documentation and software, as well as any other OS's
> such as Unix. Do you have any such software/documentation in your
> archive of which you would be willing to allow me a copy?
Kevin, until you can buy a license from SCO (soon I hope), all I can
offer are the binaries for 6th & 7th Edition. If you have an RK05 or RL02,
then you can get disk images as part of Bob Supnik's PDP-11 emulator,
at ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/pub/PDP-11-sims/Supnik_2.3
(or a similar URL, I'm typing from memory).
If you don't have RK05 or RL02s, someone should be able to build
a suitable disk image for you. I think you'll need to go 6th Edition
as you have a /23.
Warren
Mahlzeit
According to Warren Toomey:
> If I become the `central repository' for the software, then I'd like to
> set up access procedures which ensure that only legitimate users can access
> the archive, and that eavesdropping or hacking access to the archive
> shouldn't divulge its contents easily.
Isn't ftp for a $200-programm secure enough? I'm doing beta testing
for a programm, which costs $1100 and they distribute the passwords
for ftp by unencrypted mail. They do that allready for a few releases
and I don't think they had any problems with that.
> Keep the archive files encrypted:
>
> - This will stop hackers who penetrate the archive from getting the
> plaintext version of the files. I suggest using PGP with a very
> large key size to encrypt the files. The key won't be kept on the
> archive machine.
I don't think you need a very large key. Everyone, which has the
choice to crack a 512bit key or to pay $200, would choose to pay.
> I'd really like feedback from you about the proposed scheme for providing
> access to this old UNIX software!
I think pgp is to difficult to use for some. You could use a simple
encryption programm like: ftp://isidor.ethz.ch/pub/simpl/safer.V1.1.tar.Z
which should be very portable. The passphrase could be distributed on
the license.
Mahlzeit
endergone Zwiebeltuete
--
insanity inside
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Aug 7 09:22:07 1997
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199708062322.JAA03135(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: George's PDP Tape in UK
To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:22:07 +1000 (EST)
Cc: George.Coulouris(a)dcs.qmw.ac.uk
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Dear PDP-11 UNIXers,
Just got this back from George Coulouris in the UK. He's got an
old tape with PDP-11 UNIX software on it which he'd like to read:
* In article by George Coulouris:
* > Warren,
* > Thanks for your reply. I'd be happy to liase with anyone who is willing to
* > have a go at reading the tape.
* > George
*
[and later...]
* Did anybody get back to you about reading that old PDP-11 tape, George??
No, I'm afraid not.
I have been told that there is a 9-track tape drive at another centre in
London, but I haven't pursued it 'cos I was waiting for contact from your
people.
George
-------
Can anybody in the UK or Europe who would be happy to read this old tape for
George & for the PUPS archive please email him! His address is
George.Coulouris(a)dcs.qmw.ac.uk
Many thanks in advance,
Warren wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
>From Michael Engel <engel(a)numerik.math.uni-siegen.de> Thu Aug 7 18:39:42 1997
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Subject: Re: George's PDP Tape in UK
To: wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 10:39:42 +0200 (MET DST)
Cc: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, George.Coulouris(a)dcs.qmw.ac.uk
In-Reply-To: <199708062322.JAA03135(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from "Warren Toomey" at Aug 7, 97 09:22:07 am
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Hi,
it seems my mail didn`t come through last time ...
> Just got this back from George Coulouris in the UK. He's got an
> old tape with PDP-11 UNIX software on it which he'd like to read:
>
> * In article by George Coulouris:
> * > Warren,
> * > Thanks for your reply. I'd be happy to liase with anyone who is willing to
> * > have a go at reading the tape.
> * > George
>
> [and later...]
>
> * Did anybody get back to you about reading that old PDP-11 tape, George??
>
> No, I'm afraid not.
>
> I have been told that there is a 9-track tape drive at another centre in
> London, but I haven't pursued it 'cos I was waiting for contact from your
> people.
>
We have a TU81+ 9 track tape connected to a VMS Alpha here. So, if you send
me the tape, I will try to read it. Worked perfectly some months ago for a
10 yr. old tape from a DECsystem 10 ...
regards,
Michael Engel (engel(a)unix-ag.uni-siegen.de)
I have a micro11/73 with RX50 and RD53 drives. Is there a BSD variant
which I can run on the thing?
Regards,
Bob
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Manners (My REAL address is: rjm(a)swift.eng.ox.ac.uk)
BOB'S COMPUTER MUSEUM: http://swift.eng.ox.ac.uk/rjm/museum.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Aug 1 13:19:52 1997
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199708010319.NAA10575(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Old UNIX ftp archive - access ideas
To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 13:19:52 +1000 (EST)
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Dear PDP-11 & old Unix enthusiasts,
Status report of our petition to SCO about UNIX src licenses. I received this
from Dion Johnson last week:
Warren,
Thanks for your latest news. That's great about the signatures.
Yes, I perused the earlier list and it's really amazing that
we have such famous support for this. I am sure it will be
a great PR victory when we finally get this arranged.
Our exec VP (Doug Michels) is on your side. I am annoying our
legal folks, bless their hearts. :-) They have a job to do also and
I want to be sure we are protecting SCO's interests in the code
in the right ways.
I expect an answer in a week or so. I suspect there will be
further internal iterations here as we craft a license that works
for all parties.
So the right answer to publish is:
"SCO is pleased to entertain this request from so many loyal and
famous fans of UNIX. We are looking into how we can provide this
source code. No promises at this time, since there are some
intellectual property issues that must be resolved, but we will
do what we can."
I'll email when I hear more. It occurred to me that if SCO agree to src
licenses and people buy them, then they will of course want the software.
I already make the stuff available to several people, on the trust that they
have existing src licenses (e.g show me the first 100 lines of v7 nami.c etc.)
At the moment, it's all sitting as .tar.gz files on my desktop box.
If I become the `central repository' for the software, then I'd like to
set up access procedures which ensure that only legitimate users can access
the archive, and that eavesdropping or hacking access to the archive
shouldn't divulge its contents easily.
I'm after comments from you guys, the end users of the archive, as to what
sounds good, ok, bad, annoying and/or plain stupid to you.
Proposal
--------
Make the archive available via FTP:
- To prevent capture of ftp passwords, I suggest that each license
owner has an ftp account, and authentication is done using S/Key.
To distribute the S/Key key phrase or a number of S/Key pass
phrases to the license owners, I suggest using PGP email.
Keep the archive files encrypted:
- This will stop hackers who penetrate the archive from getting the
plaintext version of the files. I suggest using PGP with a very
large key size to encrypt the files. The key won't be kept on the
archive machine.
Transmission to license owner - Suggestion A:
- Transmit the PGP encrypted files `as is' to the license owner
via ftp. Shortcoming: every license owner has the same private
key required to decrypt the files. A hacker only needs to find
one vulnerable license owner to get the key.
Transmission to license owner - Suggestion B:
- On-the-fly PGP encrypt the files using a key specific to the
license owner. Shortcoming: end user must have a personal key
plus the common key, and must decrypt everything twice.
Transmission to license owner - Suggestion C:
- On-the-fly decrypt the archive file, and on-the-fly re-encrypt
it using a key specific to the license owner. End user only needs
one personal PGP key to decrypt the file. Shortcoming: the key
required to decrypt the file back to plaintext must exist on the
archive server. Hackers who break-in can thus get plaintext.
I think I prefer Suggestion A. For all 3 suggestions above, PGP
private keys will be sent to license holders using PGP email.
Anyway, this is an off the cuff set of ideas. I certainly want to keep
my butt from being sued off by SCO :-), and so I need to authenticate users,
keep audit trails of downloads and logins, and take reasonable steps to
prevent non-legitimate users from accessing the licensed material.
I'd really like feedback from you about the proposed scheme for providing
access to this old UNIX software!
Thanks in advance,
Warren wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Aug 1 14:02:29 1997
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199708010402.OAA10623(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: ideas re UNIX licensed distribution
To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 14:02:29 +1000 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <199708010345.UAA27393(a)generic.yamato.com> from "Robert J. Kelley" at "Jul 31, 97 08:45:03 pm"
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In article by Robert J. Kelley:
>
> Why not just use SSH: verified licensees could submit keys and
> the archive server would keep them on file. scp could be used
> to retrieve the files.
I'd still have to encrypt the archive files that are resident on disk.
Also, ssh is more of a `general' login account. scp would allow someone
to retrieve /etc/password :-)
If I could restrict scp access, that'd be an ok alternative.
Warren
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Aug 1 14:33:26 1997
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199708010433.OAA10684(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Old UNIX ftp archive - access ideas
To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 14:33:26 +1000 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <199708010412.VAA15987(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Jul 31, 97 09:12:05 pm"
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In article by Steven M. Schultz:
> > Make the archive available via FTP:
>
> Convenient but the management of "accounts" and S/Key or PGP keys
> could be a real logistic nightmare.
>
> Have you considered putting the archive on CDrom and shipping that
> upon receipt of a copy of the license? Naturally there would be
> a modest fee for the media and shipping.
>
> Probably would want a "mirror" shipping office in the US.
>
> The reason I asked the "what will most folks want" question earlier
> was that perhaps folks only want a handful or a couple pieces. CDrom
> writing is extremely simple (I think FreeBSD makes it harder or more
> complex than other systems though) - perhaps folks could, with the
> request for a CD specify which parts they want and a "custom" CD
> could be created.
>
> This approach does have its own set of problems but it does do away
> with network snooping, outages and breakins. The archive could be
> offline or encrypted with a key known only to you - if you needed to
> make something available you could decrypt a copy and make it available
> for a small timewindow.
>
> I know I'm planning on creating a few CDs to safeguard the stuff I've
> obtained so far - good (and cheap) protection against disk crashes
> and unreadable backup tapes.
>
> A variation on this scheme would be to master a CD with everything
> on it and let SCO send the CD out along with the license when
> payment is received. Hmmmm - I kinda like this the more I think
> about it. Might even get some nice artwork (the BSD 'imp'?) on
> the cover. I'm sure SCO gets a real good rate at the CD pressing
> plant so the media cost would be lower than an individual doing it
> on a CDwriter.
> Perhaps the online/FTP archive could be a backup or secondary
> means of distribution - if someone convinces you (or sends a copy
> of the license) they have the license but lost the media, etc you
> could set up a PGP encrypted account for them.
> Cheers.
> Steven
Yes, I'd thought about cutting a CD directly from the current archive,
and certainly having someone (SCO, me?) distribute files on CD would
make the administration a lot easier. I guess license holders could
buy `upgrade CDs' if the archive changes.
If SCO come to the src license party, I certainly will ask them about
pressing CDs and distributing them as part of the license sale.
Thanks for the input Steven!
Warren
In atricle by Neil Johnson:
> Unfortunately I cannot justify calling sources for man pages "object code".
> Redistributing the man pages may be in the spirit of SCO's agreement, but
> is not allowed in the agreement. I do not think they should be added to the
> distribution without SCO's permission.
>
> Finally a disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, this is just my understanding of
> the licence, for which I give SCO my thanks.
> Neil
THat was my impression too, Neil. I was being hopeful (as always). We do
need to talk with SCO (via Bob Supnik?) to ensure we have SCO's permission
first.
Thanks!
Warren
>From Michael Engel <engel(a)unix-ag.uni-siegen.de> Thu Jan 23 10:49:20 1997
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From: Michael Engel <engel(a)unix-ag.uni-siegen.de>
Message-Id: <199701230049.BAA21049(a)vespa.unix-ag.uni-siegen.de>
Subject: Re: 7th Edition on a real PDP-11/23+ (fwd)
To: wkt(a)csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 01:49:20 +0100 (MET)
Cc: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <9701222201.AA22095@dolphin> from "Warren Toomey" at Jan 23, 97 09:01:23 am
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> > Warren,
> >
> > I'm not sure if the PUPS members would be interested, but I have
> > successfully been able to run the 7th Edition RL02 image that accompanies
> > Bob Supniks emulator on a real PDP-11/23+.Jim Carpenter (jimc(a)zach1.tiac.net)
> > deserves a special thanks for helping me work out a few problems in bringing
> > it up. If any other members of the group are interested in doing the same I
> > would be happy to help.
>
> Bob, I'm cc'ing this reply to the mailing list so that the others will
> get a copy.
Great ! Finally gotta dig out that old RL02 drive ... How did you manage
to get the image onto the RL02 ?
> Secondly, I'm unsure of the copyright/legal status of the man pages.
> It would be good if they could be released publically. I might ask Bob
> Supnik if he has any ideas.
Some time ago, the 7th Edition man pages were available on
http://plan9.att.com. This machine currently seems to be down, so I can't
verify if the man pages are still there.
regards,
Michael Engel (engel(a)unix-ag.uni-siegen.de)
>From "Bob Armstrong" <bob(a)poco-adagio.santa-clara.ca.us> Thu Jan 23 15:20:45 1997
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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 97 21:20:45 PST
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From: "Bob Armstrong" <bob(a)poco-adagio.santa-clara.ca.us>
Subject: RE: 7th Edition on a real PDP-11/23+
To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
X-VMS-Mail-To: uucp%"oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au"
>Bob, firstly if you can write down the details of how you got the
>image installed & running on the 23+, and email it to the mailing list
>(oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au) that'd be great, as I archive the mail.
It was actually quite simple. Bob Supnik's RL02 file is simply a byte
for byte dump of a pack. That is, it's just sector 0, head 0, cylinder 0
followed by sector 1, head 0, cylinder 0, ... then all the sectors of
head 1, cylinder 0, then cylinder 1, etc. There are no overhead bytes
in the file an no interleaving is used. RL02s have 40 sectors of 256
bytes each per track, two heads, and 512 cylinders for a total 10240K bytes
per disk (which happens to be exactly the size of Bob's RL02 file :-)
You want to be careful about bad sectors, since RL02s do bad block
replacement at the device driver level. If your pack has any bad sectors
that aren't at exactly the same spot as bad sectors on Bob's original
pack (not very likely!), then this isn't going to work. Fortunately
error free RL02 packs are relatively easy to come by.
Anyway, since the only other RL02 that I have access to is on a VMS
system, I had to write a little program for VMS to load the disk using
physical I/O. I'd be happy to make this program available if anyone
wants it.
Once you have the pack loaded, you can just mount it on a 11/23 and use
the RL02 hardware boostrap. The Unix boot will start and print a "@" for
a prompt. Reply by entering "unix" and carriage return, and you'll see
"mem=205376" followed by "SINGLE USER LOGIN:". Enter ^Z and Unix will
start timesharing, then you can login in using root with the password "pdp".
I had two problems in this process. First, I didn't know about the
Unix bootstrap program (I'm afraid I've never used Bob's emulator!), and
when I saw the "@" I just blindly assumed I'd been dumped back into ODT.
Fortunately Jim Carpenter was kind enough to educate me about this.
Second, Unix would hang up as soon as I started timesharing. This
turned out to be because my LTC in the 11/23 wasn't working, which doesn't
bother RT11 at all but it does hang Unix. After I repaired the hardware
everything ran fine.
If someone has a PDP-11 with a RL02 drive and no way to load V7 on a
pack, I am willing to do it if you send me a blank RL02. I believe the
SCO license allows this so long as:
1) I don't charge for the service
2) You certify that it is for non-commerical use
3) I include a printed copy of SCO's license
Note that this kernel supports only RL02 drives, so unless your -11
has a RL02 drive this system won't work. RD5x and RA8x drives won't do.
A similar procedure would probably work with the RK05 images, but I
don't have the hardware to try.
>Finally, many of the members of the PUPS mail list are covered by
>source code licenses, so if you can tell us what device you require,
I have a 11/23, DLV11J (4 lines), RL02/RLV11, TU58 (on one of the
DLV11 ports), RX02/RXV21, and a TSV05 9-track tape. The TSV05 is
TS11 compatible, and I'd especially like to have support for it.
Bob's kernel supports MASSBUS tapes, but not a TS11.
>I'm sure someone can build a kernel for you. I wonder if it's legal to
>ship a kernel which has device drivers not in Bob Supnik's disk image?!
SCO's license seems to cover all PDP-11 binaries for 7th Edition Unix,
and it doesn't seem to say anything about their origin. Of course,
I'm not a lawyer either.
Bob
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Feb 11 15:38:53 1997
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Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 16:38:53 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199702110538.QAA08050(a)csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au>
To: moffen(a)ix.netcom.com
Cc: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: PDP-11
[Mike is taking over a sysadmin job for a UNIX PDP-11.
He hasn't seen one before. Can someone help!]
> Thanks for the response. I am told that it's running unix. I start the
> job the end of this week. The person I am replacing will be fired the
> day I start. So, I have never seen their computer room, and will not
> have any passwords or other info. It is critical that I gain control of
> the system and prevent that person from getting into the system. Any
> suggestions would be GREATLY appreciated.
>
> Thanks again,
>
> Mike Offenberg
> moffen(a)ix.netcom.com
Ok, I'd try to chat with the person before they leave! At least to get the
root password.
I am cc'ing this email to a group of PDP-11 Unix users who may be able to
help you out. I'd guess it's a 6th or 7th Edition UNIX, or a 2BSD system.
What you really need to know is:
+ how to get a root login on the system
+ how to change the root password
+ how to reboot the system properly
If the person leaves root logged in on the console, at least you can
type passwd and change the root password. If they haven't, then there
is no easy way of getting a root login to change the password, except
for rebooting the system.
Rebooting depends on what PDP-11 you've got there. If you can find out,
someone here should be able to explain how to boot into single-user mode,
where you have a root prompt and can change the root password and then
go to multi-user mode.
I'll try to get the basic maintenance manuals for these old UNIX systems
put into ASCII and email them to you.
Cheers,
Warren
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Apr 29 15:11:09 1997
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199704290511.PAA10537(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: PUPS Mailing list
To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 15:11:09 +1000 (EST)
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Hi, this is just a mailout to the PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society mailing
list, as I've just added half a dozen addresses & I thought it would be a
good idea to check that all the old & new addresses are valid. If you want
off, please email me back!
Looks like Bob Supnik's emulators have sparked a bit of interest in these
old systems. Welcome to the new users of PDP-11 Unix!
Cheers,
Warren wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Jun 4 11:33:19 1997
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199706040133.LAA00384(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: CSR/vector calculator for the archives (fwd)
To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 11:33:19 +1000 (EST)
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----- Forwarded message from Tom I Helbekkmo -----
To: wkt(a)csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
From: Tom I Helbekkmo <tih(a)nhh.no>
Subject: CSR/vector calculator for the archives
Hi, Warren!
I've written a CSR and vector calculator, based on VMS documentation
and comparison tested against VMS SYSGEN. For want of a better name,
I'm simply calling the program 'sysgen' -- this shows its heritage, at
least... :-)
This should be useful to PDP (and VAX) users who don't have a VMS
system handy, and would like to configure their systems according to
DEC standard. Would you add it to the PUPS archives and send out an
announcement to the mailing list, please?
Thanks!
-tih
----- End of forwarded message from Tom I Helbekkmo -----
I assume this runs on any box with a C compiler. I've stashed it in the
archive in the Progams section. If you don't have a Unix license, let me know
& I'll email it to you.
Warren
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Jun 26 09:54:27 1997
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199706252354.JAA04546(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: No progress on PDP-11 Unix source licenses, ideas?
To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 09:54:27 +1000 (EST)
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Dear PDP-11 Unix people,
I'm emailing you because I haven't done much in the last few months about
encouraging SCO to sell source licenses for PDP-11 UNIX, and I think it's
time we try a new tack.
The person I've been negotiating with a SCO is Dion Johnson, dionj(a)sco.com.
I pestered him a lot last year and so perhaps I've worn out my welcome with
him. So I'd like to suggest another approach or two.
Perhaps another person interested in PDP-11 UNIX source licenses can try
talking with Dion or other people at SCO? Any volunteers? Steven Schultz?
Bob Supnik? Alternatively, if nobody comes forward, we could all email Dion
expressing our desires for sources licenses for these old UNIX versions.
Looking at the survey I've been conducting at
http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/, at least 130 people are interested in
source licenses, and the general consensus is:
No resale of license is acceptable
No source redistribution is acceptable
50/50 split on single-user-only licenses
No commercial usage is acceptable
Full source code is preferable
Main UNIXes to be covered are 5th,6th,7th Edition and 2BSD.
Cost of license no more than US$200, max.
After reviewing the email from Dion, I'd add another condition which
would make SCO happy:
Source license adequately protects SCO's intellectual property,
in their view.
Anyway, please email your suggestions on what we should do to the PUPS
mailing list (oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au) or to me. I think the single
person approach is better than flooding Dion with email. Maybe we can sign
an email petition and deliver that to a number of people at SCO?
Thanks in advance for your input!
Warren wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Jun 27 11:24:14 1997
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199706270124.LAA06719(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Petition to SCO for licenses
To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 11:24:14 +1000 (EST)
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Dear PDP-11 UNIX people,
The small response to my suggestions about lobbying SCO for source
licenses brought some volunteers for the cause, and a preference for a
single petition to SCO rather than mail-bombing :-) If you didn't respond,
please let me know what you think & if you're willing to help out.
I've written a draft petition, which is attached below, and is also
available (with some hyperlinks) at
http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/petition.html
Is there anything in the draft you disagree with, or wish to change?
Please let me know!!
Warren
The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc.
Dear Sirs/Madams,
We, the undersigned, are a group of people who are interested in obtaining
source code and binary copies of the versions of UNIX that ran on the PDP-11
range of computers from Digital Equipment Corporation. We would like to
have copies of these versions of UNIX because:
+ they are of great historical importance, and/or
+ we personally own PDP-11 computers on which these systems will run.
The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc. owns the copyright to these very old versions
of UNIX. We understand and appreciate that SCO wishes to protect their
intellectual property within, and ownership of, these versions of UNIX.
Therefore, we wish to petition SCO to make available source code and binary
licenses of these versions of UNIX so that:
+ we can legally own source code and binaries for PDP-11 UNIXes, and
+ SCO's copyright and intellectual property is protected.
We would be happy to purchase and be legally bound by a source code and
binary license for PDP-11 UNIXes that meets SCO's requirements, as long as:
+ the license covers the entire distributions (source code, binaries
and documentation) of the following versions of UNIX:
- 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th Edition UNIX
- 32V UNIX
- PWB/UNIX
- those portions of all 2BSD releases which are derived
from UNIX source code
+ we have the right to make changes to the source code of the
above versions of UNIX
+ we have the right to distribute our changes to other people who
have signed and agreed to the source code and binary license for
PDP-11 UNIXes
+ we have the right to install UNIX binaries on PDP-11 hardware
and PDP-11 emulating software
+ we have the right to allow other people to use the UNIX binaries
on such an installation
Note that the latter is already permitted, given SCO's binary license agreement
for 5th, 6th and 7th Edition UNIX. We would also be happy with the following
conditions imposed in the source code and binary license for PDP-11 UNIXes:
+ no resale of the license is permitted
+ source code covered by the license cannot be distributed or
disclosed to people not covered by the license
+ no commercial usage of the source code or binaries is permitted
+ SCO is not required to include copies of any source code, binaries
or documentation with the source code and binary license for PDP-11
UNIXes
On a recent survey of people interested in such a license (see
http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/) over 120 people responded. Most of
the respondents would agree to a license with the conditions and limitations
outlined above, if the cost of such a license was less than US$200.
We urge you to consider
+ the historical significance of the UNIX operating system,
+ that the PDP-11 versions of UNIX are essentially obsolete,
+ that superior UNIX-like operating systems, libraries and
applications are freely available in source code form,
+ that the source code to 6th Edition UNIX is publically available
in printed form (Lion's Commentary on 6th Edition UNIX, Peer to
Peer Communications, Inc.)
and make personal-use non-disclosure source code and binaries licenses
for PDP-11 UNIXes available at a price which we can afford as individuals.
The UNIX community has played an extremely important role in the development
and success of the UNIX operating system. The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc., as
owners of the UNIX operating system source, would be repaying the UNIX
community in some measure by providing source licenses for these old versions
of UNIX. Although you would not profit greatly from the licenses, you would
earn the respect and appreciation from many people who helped make UNIX what
it is today.
Thank you for your time. Your response to our petition will be appreciated,
and can be sent via Internet e-mail to Warren Toomey wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au.
Sincerely yours,
The undersigned
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Jul 2 10:21:15 1997
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199707020021.KAA16859(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: PDP11
To: crr(a)gil.com.au
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 10:21:15 +1000 (EST)
Cc: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <199707020013.KAA08108(a)iccu6.ipswich.gil.com.au> from "crr(a)gil.com.au" at "Jul 2, 97 10:13:49 am"
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In atricle by crr(a)gil.com.au:
> Hello Warren,
>
> Just a short note to introduce myself, Colin Riddel is my name,
> I have just
> saved from the scrap heap a PDP11 / 34 with 2 RK5 drives
> and about 20 disks.. unfortunately the former owners of the system
> wiped all contents from the disks. I would like to be able to
> get a copy of UNIX for the PDP11, then fully restore the machime
> I would apreciate any information that you can give me on
> obtaining and setting up PDP unix on the beast
>
> I am a member of HUMBUG (home Unix machine Brisbane user group )
> and one of the system administrators at Global Info-Links (an ISP in
> Ipswich Qld)
> Colin Riddel
Hi Colin, I saw you sign the petition, thanks. The problem is how to load the
software onto the box! There are RK05 disk images of UNIX (v6 and v7) at
ftp://minnie.adfa.oz.au/pub/PDP-11-sims/Supnik_2.2d/
But how do we get them into the box? Do you have any boot disks for any OS
(RSX, RT-11)? What about tape drives?
I'll pass this onto our mailing list, maybe some more knowledgeable readers
will be able to answer you. Alternatively, posting this to vmsnet.pdp-11
should get you an answers.
Ciao,
Warren
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Jul 2 12:00:05 1997
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Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 12:00:05 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199707020200.MAA17575(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
To: unixarc(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Petition SCO for PDP-11 UNIX Source Licenses
Hello,
You may have received email from me last week asking for ideas about
lobbying SCO to make source licenses for PDP-11 UNIXes available. The feedback
from the email was in favour of creating a petition which we would present to
SCO. I mailed a draft petition to many of you and again got a favourable
response.
Therefore, I've set up a WWW petition for PDP-11 UNIX source licenses at
http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/petition.html.
PLEASE SIGN THE PETITION!!! if you agree with the petition.
PLEASE GET OTHER PEOPLE TO SIGN TOO!!! We need as many signatures as we can
get. Pass the word around to other interested people you know of.
If you filled in the PDP-11 UNIX source code survey on the same WWW server,
your name has been automatically put on the petition, unless you disagreed
with the petition's contents. Please email me if you want your name removed.
You can re-sign the petition to add your Full Name; I'll tidy it up later.
I'd like to get well over 100 names on the petition before I pass it to SCO.
If you have contacts at SCO who we could send the petition, please email me!
If you'd like to be put on a mailing list to be kept informed of the petition's
progress, also email me.
Hopefully, we will get a result from SCO.
Thanks again,
Warren Toomey wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Jul 2 12:05:23 1997
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199707020205.MAA17606(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: PDP UNIX Src License Petition
To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 12:05:23 +1000 (EST)
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Apologies if you've already got word of this; I've lost track of who I have
& haven't emailed. There is a petition to sign to convince SCO to make
Unix source licenses available at
http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/petition.html
160 signatures so far, about 120 culled from the survey I was running and
40 in the past 48 hours. Please sign if you want SCO to make licenses
available!
Informal feedback from SCO is good; Dion Johnson there thinks it looks
reasonable & he will be our advocate at SCO.
Thanks,
Warren
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Jul 16 09:38:59 1997
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199707152339.JAA01410(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Another Old PDP-11 UNIX Tape
To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 09:38:59 +1000 (EST)
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Hi all,
I've just tracked down another old tape with PDP-11 Unix stuff on it.
It's in the UK. Anybody there care to chat with George & extract the bits
from the tape so we can put it in the archive?
----- Forwarded message from George Coulouris -----
To: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
From: George Coulouris <George.Coulouris(a)dcs.qmw.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: PDP-11 UNIX
Warren,
I've had a 9-track tape reel in my bottom drawer for about 15 years. I no
longer remember what is on it! It may contain the source of 'em' and a few
other utilities that I wrote in the '70s. Unfortunately I have no
convenient way to read it. If you are interested, I could try to find
someone with a 9-track reel drive, or if you have one I could just
send the tape to you. I'd be happy to liase with anyone who is willing to
have a go at reading the tape.
George
----- End of forwarded message from George Coulouris -----
Also, the source code petition has now got 290 signatures. I haven't heard
anything from SCO since I passed it to them formally, except that they had
received it and it was being passed to `the right people'. I'll keep updating
the status page, hyperlinked to the petition itself, as things happen.
The petition's at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/petition.html. Quite a
number of well-known people have signed. Both Andy Tan(n)enbaums, Steven
Schultz, Richard Tobin, Bill Joy, Henry Spencer, Neil Groundwater, Dave
Presotto, Andrew Hume, Peter Collinson, Greg Rose, Brian Redman, Peter
Honeyman, Megan Gentry, Jim McKie, Margo Seltzer, John Mashey, Peter Salus,
Ozalp Babaoglu, Keith Bostic, George Coulouris etc. Plus all the other
individuals who have shown support.
Cheers,
Warren
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Jul 23 13:36:12 1997
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199707230336.NAA01232(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: New PDP-11 UNIX Archive Additions
To: oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:36:12 +1000 (EST)
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All,
I've just received a couple of _huge_ tarballs from Keith Bostic
with the following PDP-11 UNIX stuff:
1BSD
2.10BSD
2.79BSD
2.8BSD
2.9BSD
2BSD First 2BSD tape.
3BSD First 3BSD tape.
pascal.2.0 Pascal distribution
pascal.2.10 Pascal distribution
32V
Documentors WorkBench.
pdp.archive ???
pwb 3 slightly different & incomplete versions
v6 6th Edition
v6.compat ???
v7 7th Edition
v7add The "40 changes" tape.
v7m Follow-on release to V7
Due to space considerations (& a lack of time), I haven't been able to
extract anything into the licensed UNIX archive that I run on henry. I'd
also like to try and remove duplicates where possible.
If you're interested in a particular thing from the tarballs, please email
me and I'll extract the relevant sections.
Also: 300+ signatures on the PDP-11 UNIX src license petition. I just sent
a reminder email to SCO to see what they're doing with it.
Cheers,
Warren
> From: "Bob Armstrong" <bob(a)poco-adagio.santa-clara.ca.us>
> Subject: 7th Edition on a real PDP-11/23+
> To: wkt(a)csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au
>
> Warren,
>
> I'm not sure if the PUPS members would be interested, but I have
> successfully been able to run the 7th Edition RL02 image that accompanies
> Bob Supniks emulator on a real PDP-11/23+.Jim Carpenter (jimc(a)zach1.tiac.net)
> deserves a special thanks for helping me work out a few problems in bringing
> it up. If any other members of the group are interested in doing the same I
> would be happy to help.
Bob, I'm cc'ing this reply to the mailing list so that the others will
get a copy.
> As I understand the terms of the SCO license, this should be perfectly
> legal so long as it is for non-commerical purposes. There doesn't seem
> to be anything in the license that limits me to using an emulator.
> Please correct me if you disagree.
As far as I can see, you can do anything with the disk image as long as
it's non-commercial. So I'm sure that it's perfectly legal.
>
> Performance is suprisingly good, especially considering that the 11/23+
> was no speed demon even by old PDP standards. And it's amazing - the
> whole Unix system fits on a 10Mb pack with about 3.5Mb free!
>
> The contents of this disk image seem to be pretty limited, and I'm
> interested in knowing if any of the missing components (e.g. man pages!!)
> are available anywhere. I'm also interested to know if there are any V7
> kernels available with more devices installed. I've got a lot of hardware
> on my 11/23, especially a TSV05 but also a RX02 and TU58, that this system
> can't use.
> Bob Armstrong
Bob, firstly if you can write down the details of how you got the
image installed & running on the 23+, and email it to the mailing list
(oldunix(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au) that'd be great, as I archive the mail.
Secondly, I'm unsure of the copyright/legal status of the man pages.
It would be good if they could be released publically. I might ask Bob
Supnik if he has any ideas.
Finally, many of the members of the PUPS mail list are covered by
source code licenses, so if you can tell us what device you require,
I'm sure someone can build a kernel for you. I wonder if it's legal to
ship a kernel which has device drivers not in Bob Supnik's disk image?!
Hope so!
Cheers,
Warren
