Hi, Ed.
> I've had a chance to do some further research on this, and it seems
> to me that the bug is definitely in Supnik's emulator. What do you
> all think? Am I onto something? If so, what part of Supnik's code
> is probably to blame?
Interesting... did you use the same binary on both Bob's emulator and Ersatz?
> 3. Peter Turnbull wrote me that factor running on under uv7 on his
> PDP-11/23 runs the test case 'factor 6' without error.
Ah, I meant to mail that to the list. No matter, it got to where it was most
needed, obviously :-)
I'd suggest you recompile factor if you have the source, but add some
debugging. If you can't do that, you could try running it with adb (the
debugger, man 1 adb for details).
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sat Mar 28 10:50:54 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803280050.LAA05410(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
To: pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 11:50:54 +1100 (EST)
Cc: edgee(a)cyberpass.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <9803270628.ZM27283(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from Pete Turnbull at "Mar 27, 98 06:28:52 am"
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In article by Pete Turnbull:
> Hi, Ed.
>
> > I've had a chance to do some further research on this, and it seems
> > to me that the bug is definitely in Supnik's emulator. What do you
> > all think? Am I onto something? If so, what part of Supnik's code
> > is probably to blame?
>
> Interesting... did you use the same binary on both Bob's emulator and Ersatz?
>
> > 3. Peter Turnbull wrote me that factor running on under uv7 on his
> > PDP-11/23 runs the test case 'factor 6' without error.
> I'd suggest you recompile factor if you have the source, but add some
> debugging. If you can't do that, you could try running it with adb (the
> debugger, man 1 adb for details).
I suspect the FP emulation in Bob's Emulator, so it might be worth
watching the floating point values in the program. Bob mailed me during
the week, and I sent him a virgin binary of factor so he could verify that
there is a bug.
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sun Mar 29 09:41:33 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803282341.JAA06110(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Digest of PUPS mail available
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 09:41:33 +1000 (EST)
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The PUPS mailing list seems to be getting busier. For those `lurkers' who
want to follow the list, but don't want to be pestered by incoming email
every 10 minutes, I've set up a digest form of the list.
The digest will be sent out every Monday and Thursday, or if the incoming
e-mail exceeds 40K in total.
To get the digest version, and to unsubscribe from the normal list, send
e-mail to majordomo(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au with the commands in the message body:
subscribe pups-digest
unsubscribe pups
You still need to send mail to pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au for it to go to
the PUPS list and to be included in the digest.
Warren
<Well, I've got uncompress working, but I thought having gunzip would
<be good as it gives better compression results.
The question is why? Generally compression is a diminishing returns for
computational effort with 80% for the first 10% effort. I can see having
it if needed to gain access to software and the current platform is the
only one.
For sim to hardware transfers simple works better...
Allison
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Mar 26 07:55:36 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803252155.IAA03217(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Follow-up: oddball versions of Unix
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:55:36 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199803252150.NAA10104(a)rainbow.Corp.Sun.COM> from Chris Drake at "Mar 25, 98 01:50:07 pm"
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In article by Chris Drake:
> >UNIX on a Microprocessor
>
> I did use something called "Mini-Unix" on a PDP-11/10, which was a single-
> address space machine. It worked, sort of, but had some problems - like,
> pipes were implemented as temporary files, so the shell broke things apart
> into individual sequential commands... and printing with lpr generally
> froze the machine up. There may have been later and better versions, though.
> (This was around 76/77, as I recall).
Yep, it's in the archive!
Warren
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>From Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Thu Mar 26 07:56:05 1998
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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 21:56:05 +0000
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Cc: PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
From: Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: gzip on PDP-11: not so simple
In-Reply-To: <199803252033.HAA03043(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
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In message <199803252033.HAA03043(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>, Warren Toomey
<wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes
>In article by Allison J Parent:
>> I find this situation funny as in the 8080/z80 (8 bit data 64kbyte address
>> space) world there is LZH, Crunch, ARK, ARC, LBR... compressors and
>> decompressors. Atleast a handful are written in C.
>>
>> Also PDP11 address space (no I&D) is 32kW... Instructions are always
>> words so code can eat up a fair portion of the 64k bytes.
>
>Well, I've got uncompress working, but I thought having gunzip would
>be good as it gives better compression results.
>
> Warren
I looked at this several years ago and gave up at the save point as
Warren. I looked at compress using 16 bits and hit the same sort of
constructs. After a bit of thinking I believe there may be a way round
it but at the time I didn't know the algorithms used in compress or gzip
so didn't try playing.
The problem is that the compression algorithm needs a 64k space to do
all of its sums in, don't ask me why, if someone could tell us the
algorithm them I would understand a lot better.
These are defined as 64k address spaces which the data page isn't
holding cos they don't fit. If you write a virtual mem system then this
will work. This causes problems in the standalone world obviously but
steve wrote a vm lookalike for 2.11 that uses files, yes a lump of real
mem aka the partition concept with movable windows in RSX would be nice
but we can't have everything, but compress and maybe gip should be able
to be cooked into using such a system for vm. This would be slow but
what are we after?, an all singing all dancing system or something that
would work in the background whilst we get a beer and wait for the
system to install?.
Cheers
Robin
Robin Birch robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk
M1ASU/2E0ARJ Old computers and radios always welcome
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Mar 26 08:07:35 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803252207.JAA03305(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: gzip on PDP-11: not so simple
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:07:35 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <0S+aPCA11XG1EwK5(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> from Robin Birch at "Mar 25, 98 09:56:05 pm"
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In article by Robin Birch:
[ not being able to run gzip on a PDP-11 ]
> This would be slow but
> what are we after?, an all singing all dancing system or something that
> would work in the background whilst we get a beer and wait for the
> system to install?.
You're right I think. At least compress -b12 works, and as you say, a bit
of extra wait isn't going to hurt too much.
Peter Chubb seems interested in fitting gunzip into 64K. I'll see how he
goes with it.
Thanks all for your comments,
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Mar 26 08:30:00 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803252230.JAA03395(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Available: tool to write disk images to PDP-11
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:30:00 +1100 (EST)
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Ok,
I debugged the thing yesterday, it works well. If you want to write
a PDP-11 disk image to a real PDP-11, you might like to look in:
ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/pub/PDP-11/Vtserver
and at the file zcat.README there.
Current disk and tapes supported:
hp: RP04, RP05 and RP06 disks.
rp: RP03 disks.
rk: RK05 disks.
rl: RL01 and RL02 disks.
ht: TU16 or TE16 tape drive.
tm: TU10 tape drive.
vt: The Virtual Tape drive.
You can download from any tape to any disk. The Virtual Tape drive allows
you to download the image over a KL11 at 9,600 baud. Any type of disk image
can be downloaded, not just Unix ones.
You will need compress(1). And a bit of patience.
Let's hope someone tries this out!
Ciao,
Warren
P.S I plan on migrating to the 2.11BSD standalone stuff, which supports
more tape drives and disk drives. Sometime.
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>From Peter Chubb <peterc(a)softway.com.au> Thu Mar 26 14:21:00 1998
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From: Peter Chubb <peterc(a)softway.com.au>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Progress on zcat
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Well...
my cut-down zcat now works under Linux, and compiles and links
cleanly under v7 on the simulator. But the semantics are
wrong!
Big problem is the lack of unsigned char and unsigned long
types.
I'm gradually going through and finding places where left
shifts, or sign extensions are happening, and masking them
explicitly.
I'm almost sure that at UNSW we had a C compiler on Unix V7 that had
an unsigned long data type...
Anyway, there's progress. And if it all goes OK, then
on machines that have separate I&D spaces, the resulting zcat
will be compatible with gzip everywhere.
Peter C
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>From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Fri Mar 27 12:51:31 1998
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From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 22:51:31 -0400
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Subject: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
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As you know, I wrote this list recently about a bug in Bob Supnik's
emulator which manifests when running factor (1).
I've had a chance to do some further research on this, and it seems
to me that the bug is definitely in Supnik's emulator. What do you
all think? Am I onto something? If so, what part of Supnik's code
is probably to blame?
Here's what I've learned so far:
1. factor on Supnik's emulator fails most of the time (see below for
examples).
2. factor works fine on Ersatz-11
2. On the off-chance that I munged the disk images and somehow
corrupted factor, I reextracted virgin images from the tar ball.
factor still fails while running on Supnik's emulator.
3. Peter Turnbull wrote me that factor running on under uv7 on his
PDP-11/23 runs the test case 'factor 6' without error.
Here's what factor does on Supnik's emulator for a variety of values:
factor 6
2
3
17
17 etc.
factor 257
263
263 etc.
factor 263
269
269 etc.
factor 1009 (works correctly)
1009
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<There are certain areas of Unix that don't seem quite "done" to me.
<Printing comes to mind (compare Unix benign neglect with Windows'
<universal printer driver).
Most of magtapes short commings under unix are common across most OSs
and are assignable to the characterisitcs of the medium. Mag tape has
several things that make it difficult, one is old (late 60s and through
the 70s) drives had a difficult time starting and stopping without
breaking tape or resorting to complex(then standards) controllers. This
lead to things like large interrecord gaps (start, speed up read, stop,
backspace records, stop, read) due to the inerta of starting and stoping
the reels. Also fixed record sizes were used to make blocks about the
same length so blocks and marks could be differentiated using simple
timers.
Magtape was for the longest time the only portable media, which lead to
the ansi/EBCDIC problems (Evryone else and IBM/HP). It was generally
used for archival storage making file organized access excess overhead.
While often used as block oriented, many systems used it more as a stream
device where the high volume storage (relative to the disks of the time)
capability was available.
When processing was done on early system usually two or three drives were
involved as one of two were for reading and the third was writing results
usually due to memory size limitations of the time compared to the amount
of data. Alot of magtapes lore is a result of historical use.
FYI the idea of tar files had spilled over to CP/M (8080, z80) systems
back in the 80s for distribution sets. It was done usually by creating
an archive set of compressed files (.arc, .ark, .lbr). to get the most
out of limited space of floppies (under 300k) of the time and to keep
programs set and sources together.
Allison
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>From Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> Thu Mar 26 02:03:59 1998
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From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk>
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Cc: haba(a)pdc.kth.se (Harald Barth),
pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Subject: Re: What's TENIX??
In-Reply-To: <199803190227.NAA04067(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
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<199803190227.NAA04067(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
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* Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by Harald Barth:
>> One PDP-11 I have (and don't quite understand the hardware of) calls itself
>> Tektronix 8562. In that box (43x60x30cm) you find
>> LSI-11/73 (only part made by DIGITAL)
>> Controller with
>> 8'' floppy
>> 40Mb MFM disk with TENIX (binary of some kind of V7 Unix)
>> Controller with
>> 10 ttys
> Hmm, I haven't heard of Tenix before. I might punt this onto the
> mailing list to see if anybody can identify it.
> Any ideas, people??
I remember this. Somewhere I worked as a student there was a
tektronix box which supported some kind of microcontroller development
system and/or and in-circuit emulator (for things like 8048 / 8051,
though I think it had personality modules). It was a box which was
known to be a PDP11, and had a couple of tek terminals on it, probably
another box with stuff to support the emulators/PROM blowers & stuff,
and it ran Tenix. I had an account on it, but all I knew then was
that it was some kind of Unix. V7 sounds right -- perhaps it was
Tek's OEMd version of this, with (I guess) support for whatever HW
they had + some kind of development environment / x-assemblers & so
on. The box just might still exist somewhere -- I made an attempt to
get hold of it after I realised that PDP11s were cool, but it was hard
because it had been worth a lot of money once and the accountants went
all funny about it.
--tim
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>From Milo Velimirovic <milov(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu> Thu Mar 26 02:32:14 1998
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From: Milo Velimirovic <milov(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu>
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 98 10:32:14 -0600
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: oddball versions of Unix
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Hey,
does anyone know if LSX is coverd by the SCO source license? And where to
get sources for it? It was a version of Unix that I played with 15 years ago
on an LSI-11 system with dual AED floppy drives... it was nice in that it
woudl run on a pdp11 that was lacking memory mangaement i.e. a 28kWord
machine....
Shake those gray cells friends and let's see if we can scare this one out of
the woodwork... it would make a lot of ancient pdp11's much more useful.
Regards,
Milo
---
Milo Velimirovic <Milo.Velimirovic(a)uwlax.edu>
Unix Computer Network Administrator (608) 785-8030
Information Technology Services -- Network Services
University of Wisconsin - La Crosse
La Crosse, Wisconsin 54601 USA 43 48 05 N 91 14 22 W
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>From Harald Barth <haba(a)pdc.kth.se> Thu Mar 26 02:51:55 1998
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To: tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: What's TENIX??
From: Harald Barth <haba(a)pdc.kth.se>
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:03:59 GMT"
References: <199803251603.QAA13855(a)cara.aiai.ed.ac.uk>
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> The box just might still exist somewhere -- I made an attempt to
> get hold of it after I realised that PDP11s were cool, but it was hard
> because it had been worth a lot of money once and the accountants went
> all funny about it.
Oh yes, very common scenario. Booted just for fun, see below.
Harald.
Welcome to Tnix Version 2.1 (rev b) on an 11/73
We recommend that you check the file system after TNIX has been
restarted. ( Checking the file system takes about 5 minutes for a minimum
system of files, longer for more files. )
Do you want to check the file system at this time?
Enter y for yes, n for no, or question mark for more information : y
The standard TNIX syschk command reports any problems with
the file system, but does not fix them.
The Standalone Utilities syschk command reports any problems with the file
system, and queries you on how to fix the problems.
Which file system checker?
1) standard TNIX syschk (reports problems)
2) Standalone Utilities syschk (fixes problems)
Please enter a number: 1
checking /dev/rhd0:
...checking i-nodes and directory entries...
...checking tree structure...
...checking free list...
free list is ok. rebuild free list? (y or n): n
75349 total blocks in filesystem
0 bad blocks (0 percent)
44112 free blocks (58 percent)
22491 free i-nodes (89 percent)
TNIX shows the current date and time as
Sat Mar 22 23:31:31 MET 1997
If date and time is already correct, press RETURN.
Otherwise, you need to reenter the date.
The format for a date entry is [dd-mmm-yy] hh:mm[:ss]
Example: 22-jun-83 14:20
Please enter correct date: 25-mar-98 02:34
Wed Mar 25 02:34:51 MET 1998
Do you want to remain single user?
(Enter y for yes, n for no, or question mark for more information) : y
Now entering single-user mode. To exit from single-user mode,
enter CTRL-D.
#
Do you want to remain single user?
(Enter y for yes, n for no, or question mark for more information) : n
When you see the login prompt, you can enter your login name,
"manager", or "root".
login: your login name Logs you into your personal account. The account
must already have been created by the system
manager.
login: manager Displays information about common system manager
tasks, and information about the "root" account.
login: root Logs you in to the "root" account -- the account
used to maintain system files. As root, you have
full access to all files on the system, and no
restrictions as to what you can do with the files.
We recommend that you limit access to the root account,
and that you assign a password to the root account.
login: root
Password:
********************************************************************************
* *
* WELCOME TO TEKTRONIX *
* *
********************************************************************************
USERS ON THE SYSTEM:
ASSAR
HABA
MHO
IF YOU HAVE ANY PROBLEMS, DO NOT ASK HABA IF HE CAN HELP YOU
# ls -ltr
total 499
-rw------- 1 root 58740 Apr 10 1984 tnix.old
-rw------- 1 root 9852 Apr 10 1984 boot
drwxr-xr-x11 bin 176 Apr 10 1984 tek
-rw------- 1 root 57584 Apr 10 1984 TNIX.old
-rw------- 1 root 58740 Jun 20 1985 tnix
-rwx--x--x 1 root 57584 Nov 9 1985 TNIX
drwxr-xr-x 2 bin 736 Sep 23 1986 lib
-rw-r--r-- 1 root 1024 Oct 1 1986 .hp_memory
drwxrwxrwx 2 root 176 Jan 30 1987 lost+found
drwxr-xr-x 5 root 80 Sep 1 1992 home
drwxr-xr-x 7 bin 4336 Sep 1 1992 bin
drwxr-xr-x 2 root 928 Nov 5 1992 dev
drwxr-xr-x 2 root 80 Nov 5 1992 mnt
drwxrwxr-x 4 root 128 Apr 19 1993 vaxboot
drwxr-xr-x 4 bin 480 Mar 25 02:36 etc
drwxr-xr-x25 bin 416 Mar 25 02:36 usr
drwxrwxrwx 2 root 64 Mar 25 02:36 tmp
# shutdown
Wait for the message on the system console
saying it is all right to halt the system.
System may now be safely powered down or rebooted
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>From Milo Velimirovic <milov(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu> Thu Mar 26 05:47:24 1998
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From: Milo Velimirovic <milov(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu>
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 98 13:47:24 -0600
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Subject: Follow-up: oddball versions of Unix
Reply-To: Milo_Velimirovic(a)uwlax.edu
References: <9803251632.AA01056(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu>
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Hi,
The system I referred to below was described in:
Lycklama, H.
UNIX on a Microprocessor,
Bell System Technical Journal, Vol. 57, No. 6, July-August 1978, pp. 2087-2101
--Milo
Begin forwarded message:
>
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>From: Milo Velimirovic <milov(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu>
>Date: Wed, 25 Mar 98 10:32:14 -0600
>To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
>Subject: oddball versions of Unix
>Reply-To: Milo_Velimirovic(a)uwlax.edu
>Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
>
>Hey,
>
>does anyone know if LSX is coverd by the SCO source license? And where to
>get sources for it? It was a version of Unix that I played with 15 years ago
>on an LSI-11 system with dual AED floppy drives... it was nice in that it
>woudl run on a pdp11 that was lacking memory mangaement i.e. a 28kWord
>machine....
>
>Shake those gray cells friends and let's see if we can scare this one out of
>the woodwork... it would make a lot of ancient pdp11's much more useful.
>
>
>Regards,
>Milo
>---
>Milo Velimirovic <Milo.Velimirovic(a)uwlax.edu>
>Unix Computer Network Administrator (608) 785-8030
>Information Technology Services -- Network Services
>University of Wisconsin - La Crosse
>La Crosse, Wisconsin 54601 USA 43 48 05 N 91 14 22 W
>
>
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Mar 26 06:33:46 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803252033.HAA03043(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: gzip on PDP-11: not so simple
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 07:33:46 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <199803251433.AA22453(a)world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Mar 25, 98 09:33:18 am"
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In article by Allison J Parent:
> I find this situation funny as in the 8080/z80 (8 bit data 64kbyte address
> space) world there is LZH, Crunch, ARK, ARC, LBR... compressors and
> decompressors. Atleast a handful are written in C.
>
> Also PDP11 address space (no I&D) is 32kW... Instructions are always
> words so code can eat up a fair portion of the 64k bytes.
Well, I've got uncompress working, but I thought having gunzip would
be good as it gives better compression results.
Warren
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>From Chris Drake <Chris.Drake(a)Corp.Sun.COM> Thu Mar 26 07:50:07 1998
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From: Chris Drake <Chris.Drake(a)Corp.Sun.COM>
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Subject: Re: Follow-up: oddball versions of Unix
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>UNIX on a Microprocessor
I did use something called "Mini-Unix" on a PDP-11/10, which was a single-
address space machine. It worked, sort of, but had some problems - like,
pipes were implemented as temporary files, so the shell broke things apart
into individual sequential commands... and printing with lpr generally
froze the machine up. There may have been later and better versions, though.
(This was around 76/77, as I recall).
- Chris
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I find this situation funny as in the 8080/z80 (8 bit data 64kbyte address
space) world there is LZH, Crunch, ARK, ARC, LBR... compressors and
decompressors. Atleast a handful are written in C.
Also PDP11 address space (no I&D) is 32kW... Instructions are always
words so code can eat up a fair portion of the 64k bytes.
Allison
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On Mar 25, 15:54, Greg Lehey wrote:
> Subject: Re: Bug in Supnik's emulator?
> On Tue, 24 March 1998 at 23:48:33 -0400, Ed G. wrote:
> > I don't know whether this is a bug in the factor (1) program (which
> > seems unlikely) or the emulator. Can someone try factoring numbers on
> > a real pdp-11 and tell me what happens?
> >
> > On the emulator when I type in a number, factor prints out the
> > prime factors, followed by an infinite series of 17s.
> I would be very surprised if this was a bug in the emulator.
> In any case, I tried it on the begemot emulator, running 2.11BSD:
>
> [55] root--> /usr/games/factor 6
> 2
> 3
> [56] root-->
On my PDP-11/23 running 7th Edition, factor works fine:
$ factor 6
2
3
$
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
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That reminds me. Why can't the 11/73 boot the unix RL pack directly from
console boot dialog? The system boots RSTS and RT-11 packs. Is the boot
block munged/missing? I might add it boots fine using boot/foreign from
rt11.
It's a curiousity as having RT on floppy or HD is not a big thing for me.
But if it can be fixed that would be an improvement.
Allison
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>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Thu Mar 19 01:17:18 1998
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Subject: Re: V7 startup
To: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 07:17:18 -0800 (PST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199803180459.AA20873(a)world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Mar 17, 98 11:59:06 pm
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> That reminds me. Why can't the 11/73 boot the unix RL pack directly from
> console boot dialog? The system boots RSTS and RT-11 packs. Is the boot
> block munged/missing? I might add it boots fine using boot/foreign from
> rt11.
The 11/73 firmware bootstrap expects the boot block to conform to certain
standards specified by DEC in the early/mid-80's. In particular, the
bootstrap must begin with a NOP, but there are some other requirements
I don't recall at the moment.
The toggle-in bootstraps that DEC supplied didn't do any such checks (who'd
want to toggle tha check in everytime, anyway?), they just read block 0 to
location 0 and jump to it (well, some also assume things about the SP
going somewhere reasonable, and sometimes certain register locations set
to certain things.) And RT-11's BOOT/FOR doesn't make any such checks,
either.
> It's a curiousity as having RT on floppy or HD is not a big thing for me.
> But if it can be fixed that would be an improvement.
You can either rewrite the 11/73 firmware to not do the check, or you can
rewrite the V7 boot block so it conforms to DEC's standard. The RL02
is a particularly stupid device and requires an inordinately large bootstrap,
so there may not be a lot of free room in the V7 boot block. You can also
stick a "toggle-in" RL02 bootstrap into RAM via ODT and execute that. But
I've decded that for me, the solution of RT's BOOT/FOR is the best, just
as you seem to have :-).
Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Mar 19 12:27:07 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803190227.NAA04067(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: What's TENIX??
To: haba(a)pdc.kth.se (Harald Barth)
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 13:27:07 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <199803190143.CAA28649(a)pancake.pdc.kth.se> from Harald Barth at "Mar 19, 98 02:43:13 am"
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In article by Harald Barth:
> One PDP-11 I have (and don't quite understand the hardware of) calls itself
> Tektronix 8562. In that box (43x60x30cm) you find
> LSI-11/73 (only part made by DIGITAL)
> Controller with
> 8'' floppy
> 40Mb MFM disk with TENIX (binary of some kind of V7 Unix)
> Controller with
> 10 ttys
Hmm, I haven't heard of Tenix before. I might punt this onto the
mailing list to see if anybody can identify it.
Any ideas, people??
Warren
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>From "Sheila H.//Elwood Blues" <shsrms(a)erols.com> Thu Mar 19 13:40:55 1998
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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 22:40:55 -0500
From: "Sheila H.//Elwood Blues" <shsrms(a)erols.com>
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CC: Harald Barth <haba(a)pdc.kth.se>,
PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: What's TENIX??
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Warren Toomey wrote:
>
> In article by Harald Barth:
> > One PDP-11 I have (and don't quite understand the hardware of) calls itself
> > Tektronix 8562. In that box (43x60x30cm) you find
> > LSI-11/73 (only part made by DIGITAL)
> > Controller with
> > 8'' floppy
> > 40Mb MFM disk with TENIX (binary of some kind of V7 Unix)
> > Controller with
> > 10 ttys
>
> Hmm, I haven't heard of Tenix before. I might punt this onto the
> mailing list to see if anybody can identify it.
>
> Any ideas, people??
>
> Warren
Tenex was a PDP10 (aka DECSystem 10/20) operating system.
Some 10s had 11s as consoles.
bob
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>From Harald Barth <haba(a)pdc.kth.se> Fri Mar 20 21:06:44 1998
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To: shsrms(a)erols.com
Cc: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, haba(a)pdc.kth.se, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: What's TNIX (Was: What's TENIX??)
From: Harald Barth <haba(a)pdc.kth.se>
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 18 Mar 1998 22:40:55 -0500"
References: <351093C7.5B96(a)erols.com>
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Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 12:06:44 +0100
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Hi,
I wrote to Warren:
> > > One PDP-11 I have (and don't quite understand the hardware of) calls itself
> > > Tektronix 8562. In that box (43x60x30cm) you find
> > > LSI-11/73 (only part made by DIGITAL)
> > > Controller with
> > > 8'' floppy
> > > 40Mb MFM disk with TENIX (binary of some kind of V7 Unix)
> > > Controller with
> > > 10 ttys
Warren wrote:
> > Hmm, I haven't heard of Tenix before. I might punt this onto the
> > mailing list to see if anybody can identify it.
shsrms(a)erols.com wrote:
> Tenex was a PDP10 (aka DECSystem 10/20) operating system.
> Some 10s had 11s as consoles.
The Tektronix manuals say "Tektronix Unix" and "TNIX". Looks like I've
to boot the box and have a closer look at the actual software. I'm
quite sure that it is some kind of v7. Unfortunately, it's just
binaries. I don't think this should be confused with Tenex and/or
PDP10s which had PDP11s and PDP8s as I/O processors in different
places.
Harald.
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>From Harald Barth <haba(a)pdc.kth.se> Sun Mar 22 11:44:17 1998
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To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Cc: bygg(a)sunet.se, thn(a)stacken.kth.se, haba(a)pdc.kth.se
Subject: Two different 2.11?
From: Harald Barth <haba(a)pdc.kth.se>
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Started to get 2.11BSD working on emulator and 11/70. So far:
Started emulator taken from:
ftp://haba@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/Boot_Images/2.11_on_rl02/
Made kernel on emulator which supports the actual hardware:
DELUA at non standard addr, RA81, RL02
Moved boot RL02 to 11/70 with RSTS/E
Made bootable RA81 on 11/70
Untar:ed usr from
ftp://haba@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/Distributions/ucb/2.11BSD/file6.tar.gz
....And now the binaries from that tar file crash with "unknown system
call" However, the binaries distributed in the disk images work. Any
clues?
Harald.
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sun Mar 22 14:23:15 1998
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Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 20:23:15 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199803220423.UAA08735(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Two different 2.11?
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Greetings -
No, there is only 1 2.11BSD (in the sense that there are NOT
competing versions or distributions).
What happened I believe is that the Boot_Images/2.11_on_rl02 is older
than the files in Distributions/ucb/2.11BSD.
I have not looked at the Boot_Images/2.11_on_rl02 files to determine
when they were created (what patch level, etc.). On your RL02 system
what do the first two or three lines of /VERSION?
Anyhow, between the time that the 2.11_on_rl02 images were created
(I did not create them) and December-1997/January-1998 several new
system calls were created _AND_ the entire system was recompiled
and relinked. That is why you can NOT use binaries from the
Distributions/ucb/2.11BSD with earlier kernels. There is UPWARD
compatibility (old binaries can run on new kernels) but not backwards
compatibility.
What you need to do is build a 'tape' (using 'makesimtape' if you
need to use Bob's emulator) from ALL of the files in Distributions/ucb/
2.11BSD.
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
> From: Harald Barth <haba(a)pdc.kth.se>
>
> Started to get 2.11BSD working on emulator and 11/70. So far:
>
> Started emulator taken from:
> ftp://haba@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/Boot_Images/2.11_on_rl02/
>
> Made kernel on emulator which supports the actual hardware:
> DELUA at non standard addr, RA81, RL02
>
> Moved boot RL02 to 11/70 with RSTS/E
>
> Made bootable RA81 on 11/70
>
> Untar:ed usr from
>
> ftp://haba@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/Distributions/ucb/2.11BSD/file6.tar.gz
>
> ....And now the binaries from that tar file crash with "unknown system
> call" However, the binaries distributed in the disk images work. Any
> clues?
>
> Harald.
>
>
>
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Mar 23 07:55:25 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803222155.IAA08277(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: SCO processing the new licenses
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 08:55:25 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
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Hi all,
Dion at SCO writes today:
We have about a dozen licenses here, all paid up and signed off.
So you should start receiving your PDP Unix licenses soon. He didn't say who
the first dozen were.
Cheers all,
Warren
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>From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Mon Mar 23 12:02:10 1998
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From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 22:02:10 -0400
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Subject: Building sim tapes
Reply-to: edgee(a)cyberpass.net
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> What you need to do is build a 'tape' (using 'makesimtape' if you
> need to use Bob's emulator) from ALL of the files in Distributions/ucb/
> 2.11BSD.
I've looked everywhere I can think of on the PUPS site, but couldn't
find 'makesimtape'. I couldn't find it among the source of Bob's
emulator. Where can I get a copy of this program?
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Mar 23 14:31:19 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803230431.PAA09463(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Building sim tapes
To: edgee(a)cyberpass.net
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:31:19 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199803230302.WAA21783(a)renoir.op.net> from "Ed G." at "Mar 22, 98 10:02:10 pm"
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In article by Ed G.:
> > What you need to do is build a 'tape' (using 'makesimtape' if you
> > need to use Bob's emulator) from ALL of the files in Distributions/ucb/
> > 2.11BSD.
>
> I've looked everywhere I can think of on the PUPS site, but couldn't
> find 'makesimtape'. I couldn't find it among the source of Bob's
> emulator. Where can I get a copy of this program?
I don't think Bob's latest emulator has got this. I've hacked at another
program to do this, and I'll make it available tomorrow.
Bob has asked me to submit this to him for inclusion in his simulator.
Warren
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mon Mar 23 14:38:48 1998
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Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 20:38:48 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199803230438.UAA27736(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Building sim tapes
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> From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
>
> > What you need to do is build a 'tape' (using 'makesimtape' if you
> > need to use Bob's emulator) from ALL of the files in Distributions/ucb/
>
> I've looked everywhere I can think of on the PUPS site, but couldn't
> find 'makesimtape'. I couldn't find it among the source of Bob's
> emulator. Where can I get a copy of this program?
It's in /usr/src/sys/pdpstand. Look in file7.tar.gz from the 2.11 part
of the Distributions and it should be somewhere in there.
makesimtape is a hacked up version of 'maketape', the syntax and data
file are the same so if you know how to use 'maketape' to create
bootable tapes you're all set.
The program is short enough I'll include it here. It should compile
and run with minimal tweeking on any 'BSD'ish UNIX system.
Steven
-----------------------
/*
* @(#)makesimtape.c 2.0 (2.11BSD) 1997/8/7
* Hacked 'maketape.c' to write a file in a format suitable for
* use with Bob Supnik's PDP-11 simulator (V2.3) emulated tape
* driver.
*
* NOTE: a PDP-11 has to flip the shorts within the long when writing out
* the record size. Seems a PDP-11 is neither a little-endian
* machine nor a big-endian one.
*/
#include <stdio.h>
#include <errno.h>
#include <fcntl.h>
#include <stdlib.h>
#include <sys/types.h>
#include <sys/stat.h>
#include <sys/uio.h>
#define MAXB 30
char buf[MAXB * 512];
char name[50];
long recsz, flipped, trl();
int blksz;
int mt, fd, cnt;
struct iovec iovec[3];
struct iovec tmark[2];
void usage();
main(argc, argv)
int argc;
char *argv[];
{
int i, j = 0, k = 0, zero = 0;
register char *outfile = NULL, *infile = NULL;
FILE *mf;
struct stat st;
while ((i = getopt(argc, argv, "i:o:")) != EOF)
{
switch (i)
{
case 'o':
outfile = optarg;
break;
case 'i':
infile = optarg;
break;
default:
usage();
/* NOTREACHED */
}
}
if (!outfile || !infile)
usage();
/* NOTREACHED */
/*
* Stat the outfile and make sure it either 1) Does not exist, or
* 2) Exists but is a regular file.
*/
if (stat(outfile, &st) != -1 && !(S_ISREG(st.st_mode)))
errx(1, "outfile must either not exist or be a regular file");
/* NOTREACHED */
mt = open(outfile, O_WRONLY|O_CREAT|O_TRUNC, 0600);
if (mt < 0)
err(1, "Can not create %s", outfile);
/* NOTREACHED */
mf = fopen(infile, "r");
if (!mf)
err(1, "Can not open %s", infile);
/* NOTREACHED*/
tmark[0].iov_len = sizeof (long);
tmark[0].iov_base = (char *)&zero;
while (1)
{
if ((i = fscanf(mf, "%s %d", name, &blksz))== EOF)
exit(0);
if (i != 2) {
fprintf(stderr,"Help! Scanf didn't read 2 things (%d)\n", i);
exit(1);
}
if (blksz <= 0 || blksz > MAXB)
{
fprintf(stderr, "Block size %u is invalid\n", blksz);
exit(1);
}
recsz = blksz * 512; /* convert to bytes */
iovec[0].iov_len = sizeof (recsz);
#ifdef pdp11
iovec[0].iov_base = (char *)&flipped;
#else
iovec[0].iov_base = (char *)&recsz;
#endif
iovec[1].iov_len = (int)recsz;
iovec[1].iov_base = buf;
iovec[2].iov_len = iovec[0].iov_len;
iovec[2].iov_base = iovec[0].iov_base;
if (strcmp(name, "*") == 0)
{
if (writev(mt, tmark, 1) < 0)
warn(1, "writev of pseudo tapemark failed");
k++;
continue;
}
fd = open(name, 0);
if (fd < 0)
err(1, "Can't open %s for reading", name);
/* NOTREACHED */
printf("%s: block %d, file %d\n", name, j, k);
/*
* we pad the last record with nulls
* (instead of the bell std. of padding with trash).
* this allows you to access text files on the
* tape without garbage at the end of the file.
* (note that there is no record length associated
* with tape files)
*/
while ((cnt=read(fd, buf, (int)recsz)) == (int)recsz)
{
j++;
#ifdef pdp11
flipped = trl(recsz);
#endif
if (writev(mt, iovec, 3) < 0)
err(1, "writev #1");
/* NOTREACHED */
}
if (cnt > 0)
{
j++;
bzero(buf + cnt, (int)recsz - cnt);
#ifdef pdp11
flipped = trl(recsz);
#endif
if (writev(mt, iovec, 3) < 0)
err(1, "writev #2");
/* NOTREACHED */
}
close(fd);
}
/*
* Write two tape marks to simulate EOT
*/
writev(mt, tmark, 1);
writev(mt, tmark, 1);
}
long
trl(l)
long l;
{
union {
long l;
short s[2];
} foo;
register short x;
foo.l = l;
x = foo.s[0];
foo.s[0] = foo.s[1];
foo.s[1] = x;
return(foo.l);
}
void
usage()
{
fprintf(stderr, "usage: makesimtape -o outfilefile -i inputfile\n");
exit(1);
}
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Mar 23 15:00:45 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803230500.QAA09569(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Where ISN'T the PUPS Archive (was building sim tapes)
To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:00:45 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199803230438.UAA27736(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Mar 22, 98 08:38:48 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
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In article by Steven M. Schultz:
> > From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
> >
> > > What you need to do is build a 'tape' (using 'makesimtape' if you
> > > need to use Bob's emulator) from ALL of the files in Distributions/ucb/
> >
> > I've looked everywhere I can think of on the PUPS site, but couldn't
> > find 'makesimtape'. I couldn't find it among the source of Bob's
> > emulator. Where can I get a copy of this program?
> It's in /usr/src/sys/pdpstand. Look in file7.tar.gz from the 2.11 part
> of the Distributions and it should be somewhere in there.
Ah, I should point out to the readers of the mailing list:
The PUPS Archive is NOT what you get by going to
ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
as anonymous. Obviously, the archive has to be password
protected, and so the anonymous ftp on Minnie isn't the Archive.
I suspect Ed has been walking thru the anonymous area, which is why he
could only find Bob Supnik's emulator.
Anyway, Steven has provided a solution. Steven, could you put in
#ifdefs for particular endian architectures???
Cheers,
Warren
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>From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Tue Mar 24 11:49:02 1998
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From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 21:49:02 -0400
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Subject: What's magtape good for anyway?
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> The program is short enough I'll include it here. It should compile
> and run with minimal tweeking on any 'BSD'ish UNIX system.
Thanks!
I was just a plain old user during my college days, so I've never had
much contact with magtape.
But since magtape seems the easiest way to get data into and out of
Bob Supnik's emulator, I've been fooling around with (simulated)
tape a lot lately.
To me (or maybe I just don't know what I'm talking about) it seems
like magtape has a number of deficiencies:
No filenames or directory structure: just an ordered series of
bytes. Which would seem to imply that people must've used tar *a lot*
to get these services. True?
Padding of files to a multiple of the block size. Yuck! If I have
a 312 byte file, I do not want to save it and then retrieve a (to my
eyes anyway) different 512 byte file which has been padded with
200 bytes I didn't put there. Did this padding of files ever have
any bad effects?
So I was wondering, what *did* people use magtape for on these old
Unix systems?
Here are my guesses:
Bad Old Days What we use now
================================
Archival storage (tape, CD-Roms, Zip drives, floppies)
Application Software distribution (WWW, CD-Roms, ftp, email,
floppies)
System software distribution (CD-Roms, ftp)
Backups (tape)
Transfering a little data (Floppies, email).
Transfering a lot of data (CD-Roms, Zip drives, ftp, tape)
Have I left any significant use for tape out?
Ed G.
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Mar 24 14:34:54 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803240434.PAA11927(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: What's magtape good for anyway?
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:34:54 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <199803240249.VAA27961(a)renoir.op.net> from "Ed G." at "Mar 23, 98 09:49:02 pm"
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In article by Ed G.:
> So I was wondering, what *did* people use magtape for on these old
> Unix systems?
Add another one: Xmas decorations.
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Mar 24 14:45:16 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803240445.PAA11961(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Moving PDP-11 disk images to disk
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:45:16 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
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All,
I've had a few people ask the question:
I have a PDP-11, you have disk and tape images for old Unixes. How do get
the images onto my actual disk/tape so I can install Unix?
If anybody has sucessfully done:
image -> tape -> install to disk -> working PDP-11 UNIX
image -> install to disk -> working PDP-11 UNIX
or any other variant, using any intermediate system (e.g KSERVE & RT-11),
could they please drop me a note with some _details_ of what they did.
I'd like to add this to the FAQ, as I suspect this is going to be a
popular question as people receive their SCO UNIX licenses.
Thanks in advance!
Warren
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>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Tue Mar 24 14:58:44 1998
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9803240458.AA14216(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: What's magtape good for anyway?
To: edgee(a)cyberpass.net
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 20:58:44 -0800 (PST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199803240249.VAA27961(a)renoir.op.net> from "Ed G." at Mar 23, 98 09:49:02 pm
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> To me (or maybe I just don't know what I'm talking about) it seems
> like magtape has a number of deficiencies:
>
> No filenames or directory structure: just an ordered series of
> bytes. Which would seem to imply that people must've used tar *a lot*
> to get these services. True?
Most (non-Unix) minicomputer OS's had built-in support for
ANSI labeled files, which do have filenames (and header bytes to
specify record sizes and number of records). Folks who used Unix
either made their own labeled tape facility (e.g. Ultrix and
OSF/1 "ltf") or just used "dd" and a lot of hard work.
The lack of a record structure that is built-in to the Unix filesystem
really makes things like tape transfers quite irritating. The rest of
the world isn't always just a stream of bytes!
Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
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>From Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> Wed Mar 25 00:31:48 1998
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From: Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-Id: <199803241431.JAA09618(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Subject: Re: What's magtape good for anyway?
To: shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 09:31:48 -0500 (EST)
Cc: edgee(a)cyberpass.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <9803240458.AA14216(a)alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at Mar 23, 98 08:58:44 pm
Organization: University of Waterloo, Math Faculty Computing Facility
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Now far for me to be defending 9-track tapes on UNIX systems, and I'm
the first to admit I've not encountered *all* the various methods used
everywhere to write tapes, but it took no time for me years ago to write
a program that would pull blocks off a tape (by trying to read the max
limit block size) and recording the actual block size read. Oddly enough
when matched with a program that read this "raw format" info, it was sure
trivial to reproduce the tape... but I'm sure I'm missing something.
Luckily on my UNIX systems I am unencumbered by someone else's potentially
proprietary or undocumented "file structure" - both by the system and
by the media. -- Ken
| From owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Tue Mar 24 00:09:12 1998
|
| Most (non-Unix) minicomputer OS's had built-in support for
| ANSI labeled files, which do have filenames (and header bytes to
| specify record sizes and number of records). Folks who used Unix
| either made their own labeled tape facility (e.g. Ultrix and
| OSF/1 "ltf") or just used "dd" and a lot of hard work.
|
| The lack of a record structure that is built-in to the Unix filesystem
| really makes things like tape transfers quite irritating. The rest of
| the world isn't always just a stream of bytes!
|
| Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Mar 25 07:18:39 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803242118.IAA00742(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: More on Disk Images -> Disk
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 08:18:39 +1100 (EST)
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All,
I spent some time last night adding stuff to my virtual tape server.
I have to test it today, but essentially:
Box with serial line PDP-11 with
tape server -----------> uncompress & dd
+ disk_image.Z (bootable)
In other words, you can boot to an uncompressing dd, and suck over
any disk image, without actually requiring an operating system.
With this approach, you obtain an existing disk image that will work,
or you use one of the PDP-11 emulators to create a disk image with a
Unix kernel configured for your system. You then compress it, and
suck/splat it to your real PDP-11 via the serial line.
Now, what I've currently got will cope with -b12 compressed files. Can
someone tell me if it would be feasible to fit a gunzip into 64K?? Even
if it could only cope with gzip -1 files.
Cheers all,
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Mar 25 10:23:05 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803250023.LAA01449(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Compress Disk Image Install works
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:23:05 +1100 (EST)
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Well,
I'm currently sucking a .Z compress RK05 disk image over a 9600 baud
DL11 port; it seems to be working. Pity -b12 gives such low compression, but
I guess any saving at 9600 baud is worth it.
Warren
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Mar 25 10:24:33 1998
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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 16:24:33 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199803250024.QAA14701(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: More on Disk Images -> Disk
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Warren -
>From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
> Now, what I've currently got will cope with -b12 compressed files. Can
> someone tell me if it would be feasible to fit a gunzip into 64K?? Even
> if it could only cope with gzip -1 files.
If my understanding of 'gzip' is right then the alogrithm works on
32kb blocks of data and the '-N' level has little to do with the
memory consumption. Rather, as the -1, ... -9 level increases the
amount of work that gzip puts into the compression increases (the
difference between -6 and -9 is only a few percent in final output
size but the length of time taken is quite a bit higher).
Of concern would be getting the gzip sources to compile with a non-ANSI
compiler on a non-32bit machine (sizeof (long) == sizeof(int) is an
endemic assumption I wager). Well, ok - there is the worry that
you will grow old waiting for it to compress something ;-) Gzip is a
lot more cpu intensive than compress.
Steven
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Mar 25 10:32:56 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803250032.LAA01502(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: More on Disk Images -> Disk
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:32:56 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <199803250024.QAA14701(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Mar 24, 98 04:24:33 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
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In article by Steven M. Schultz:
> Warren -
>
> >From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
>
> > Now, what I've currently got will cope with -b12 compressed files. Can
> > someone tell me if it would be feasible to fit a gunzip into 64K?? Even
> > if it could only cope with gzip -1 files.
>
> If my understanding of 'gzip' is right then the alogrithm works on
> 32kb blocks of data and the '-N' level has little to do with the
> memory consumption. Rather, as the -1, ... -9 level increases the
> amount of work that gzip puts into the compression increases (the
> difference between -6 and -9 is only a few percent in final output
> size but the length of time taken is quite a bit higher).
>
> Of concern would be getting the gzip sources to compile with a non-ANSI
> compiler on a non-32bit machine (sizeof (long) == sizeof(int) is an
> endemic assumption I wager). Well, ok - there is the worry that
> you will grow old waiting for it to compress something ;-) Gzip is a
> lot more cpu intensive than compress.
I'm only thinking of implementing gunzip on the PDP-11. I've got
uncompress -b12 running standalone right now, but gunzip would be a big
win: you gzip -9 on a 32-bit system (higher compression) and gunzip
on the PDP-11.
I just don't know if the gunzip would fit. Isn't there a gunzip for MS-DOS?
Surely we could leverage something from it?
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Mar 25 13:36:28 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803250336.OAA02126(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: More on Disk Images -> Disk
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 14:36:28 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <m0yHgvc-000FlVC(a)bookworm.softway.com.au> from Peter Chubb at "Mar 25, 98 02:32:00 pm"
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In article by Peter Chubb:
>
> In the Linux kernel, linux/lib/inflate.c and
> arch/i386/boot/compressed/misc.c there's a set of gunzip routines that
> could probably be adapted -- it runs in 16 bit mode (or ought
> to). inflate.c is K&R C, so it should compile under V7; misc.c is
> ANSI, but is small (just wrappers around gunzip) and in any case would
> bneed changing to make a proper gunzip.
>
> I'll see what I can do.
> Peter C.
I think Steven described the main thing: will it run in 64K? I've popped
some mail off to Jean-loup, who was involved with writing gzip.
If we can get gunzip running in 64K on V7, I can then move it to a
standalone program with minimal effort: the V7 standalone library
provides open, close, read, write, printf, exit.
Cheers!
Warren
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Wed Mar 25 14:31:34 1998
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To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Cc: PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: More on Disk Images -> Disk
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On Wed, 25 March 1998 at 14:36:28 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by Peter Chubb:
>>
>> In the Linux kernel, linux/lib/inflate.c and
>> arch/i386/boot/compressed/misc.c there's a set of gunzip routines that
>> could probably be adapted -- it runs in 16 bit mode (or ought
>> to). inflate.c is K&R C, so it should compile under V7; misc.c is
>> ANSI, but is small (just wrappers around gunzip) and in any case would
>> bneed changing to make a proper gunzip.
>>
>> I'll see what I can do.
>> Peter C.
>
> I think Steven described the main thing: will it run in 64K? I've popped
> some mail off to Jean-loup, who was involved with writing gzip.
I've done a little bit of playing around with gzip 1.2.4. It works on
16 bit MS-DOS platforms with a bit of tweaking, and I got all modules
to compile under 2.11BSD. Unfortunately, I ended up with a couple of
undefined references on linking, and I haven't had time to look at it
in more detail. On the whole, though, it looks as if it could be made
to work, maybe with a little tweaking.
> If we can get gunzip running in 64K on V7, I can then move it to a
> standalone program with minimal effort: the V7 standalone library
> provides open, close, read, write, printf, exit.
Should be doable.
Greg
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>From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Wed Mar 25 13:48:33 1998
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From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
To: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 23:48:33 -0400
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Subject: Re: What's magtape good for anyway?
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References: <199803240249.VAA27961(a)renoir.op.net> from "Ed G." at Mar 23, 98 09:49:02 pm
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> OSF/1 "ltf") or just used "dd" and a lot of hard work.
Is 'dd' Unix's primary tool for dealing with tape drives?
> The lack of a record structure that is built-in to the Unix filesystem
> really makes things like tape transfers quite irritating. The rest of
> the world isn't always just a stream of bytes!
There are certain areas of Unix that don't seem quite "done" to me.
Printing comes to mind (compare Unix benign neglect with Windows'
universal printer driver).
My understanding is that the Unix philosophy was to provide raw and
cooked drivers for all the devices. That way you could have access
to the hardware if you needed it, or cushy operating system services
if you didn't. Only the cooked mode for the tape devices doesn't
seem to do much more than the raw mode.
Seems to me that they could have easily added file system services
for tape drives to the kernel, just like they did for hard disks.
Was support for tape another area that the Wizzards at Bell Labs
neglected in favor of other more urgent needs?
Ed
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>From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Wed Mar 25 13:48:33 1998
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From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 23:48:33 -0400
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Subject: Bug in Supnik's emulator?
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I don't know whether this is a bug in the factor (1) program (which
seems unlikely) or the emulator. Can someone try factoring numbers on
a real pdp-11 and tell me what happens?
On the emulator when I type in a number, factor prints out the
prime factors, followed by an infinite series of 17s. So, for
example
factor 6
2
3
17
17
....
I might add that I had bc running on the emulator calculate pi to
30 places and the results were identical with gnu bc on my linux box,
right down to the last digit. Very impressive.
Ed
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Mar 25 15:06:26 1998
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From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199803250506.VAA16340(a)moe.2bsd.com>
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Subject: Re: More on Disk Images -> Disk
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Greg -
> I've done a little bit of playing around with gzip 1.2.4. It works on
Are gzip and gunzip comparable in size? I'm curious if the
decompression is more 'address space' hungry than the act of
compression (or vice-versa).
> 16 bit MS-DOS platforms with a bit of tweaking, and I got all modules
> to compile under 2.11BSD. Unfortunately, I ended up with a couple of
> undefined references on linking, and I haven't had time to look at it
Which symbols came up missing/undefined?
> > If we can get gunzip running in 64K on V7, I can then move it to a
>
> Should be doable.
It's actually 56kb or less - have to leave room for the stack and
other data (strings, etc)
Steven
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Wed Mar 25 15:24:01 1998
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From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: edgee(a)cyberpass.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Bug in Supnik's emulator?
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On Tue, 24 March 1998 at 23:48:33 -0400, Ed G. wrote:
> I don't know whether this is a bug in the factor (1) program (which
> seems unlikely) or the emulator. Can someone try factoring numbers on
> a real pdp-11 and tell me what happens?
>
> On the emulator when I type in a number, factor prints out the
> prime factors, followed by an infinite series of 17s. So, for
> example
>
> factor 6
> 2
> 3
> 17
> 17
> ....
I would be very surprised if this was a bug in the emulator.
In any case, I tried it on the begemot emulator, running 2.11BSD:
[55] root--> /usr/games/factor 6
2
3
[56] root-->
Greg
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Wed Mar 25 15:28:46 1998
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Subject: Re: More on Disk Images -> Disk
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On Tue, 24 March 1998 at 21:06:26 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> Greg -
>
>> I've done a little bit of playing around with gzip 1.2.4. It works on
>
> Are gzip and gunzip comparable in size?
They're links to the same executable.
> I'm curious if the
> decompression is more 'address space' hungry than the act of
> compression (or vice-versa).
I haven't looked at the process images on systems on which they run.
I suspect it wouldn't relate directly to 16 bit platforms anyway,
since they have a slightly modified algorithm.
>> 16 bit MS-DOS platforms with a bit of tweaking, and I got all modules
>> to compile under 2.11BSD. Unfortunately, I ended up with a couple of
>> undefined references on linking, and I haven't had time to look at it
>
> Which symbols came up missing/undefined?
Various things defined in the program. They relate to the area in
which I was tweaking.
>>> If we can get gunzip running in 64K on V7, I can then move it to a
>>
>> Should be doable.
>
> It's actually 56kb or less - have to leave room for the stack and
> other data (strings, etc)
Yes, I understand. It may of course be that we need separate I and D.
Greg
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Wed Mar 25 15:47:54 1998
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From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
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Subject: gzip on PDP-11: not so simple
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OK, I've found the problems with gzip, and they're not encouraging.
It would appear that the undefined references are undefined because
they refer to data which is too large. Here's the preprocessor
output:
uch inbuf[ 0x8000 + 64 ];
uch outbuf[ 16384 +2048 ];
ush d_buf[ 0x8000 ];
uch window[ 2*0x8000 ];
# 194 "gzip.c"
ush prev[ 1<<(16-1)];
ush tab_prefix1[ 1<<(16-1)];
uch and ush are uchar and ushort respectively. Obviously there's no
way of fitting this into a 64 kB address space. Possibly there's a
way of shortening the buffers, but it would take more time than I have
right now. Sorry for raising your hopes.
There are other zip-compatible programs out there, such as unzip.
Maybe somebody should look into them.
Greg
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>From John Holden <johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au> Wed Mar 25 16:00:21 1998
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There were several tape handling programs that were standand from edition 5
onwards, including tap, tp, dtp, itp, tar and cpio. The only major tape standard
around at the time (other than IBM) was ANSI, and several programs (not from
Bell) were available to handle these. The ANSI tape structure was very
inefficient with tape usage, since it used small record sizes and lots
of tape marks. TAR did a better job (for Unix) and only lacked labels
to name the tape.
Putting tape filesystem handling into the kernel was definately against the
original 'small is beautiful' philosophy. In any case, tape handling was
very easy via the raw interface.
As a side issue, Plan 9 has the ability to mount a tape as part of the
namespace and only reads the file contents if the file is opened.
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>From Peter Chubb <peterc(a)softway.com.au> Wed Mar 25 17:43:00 1998
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To: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
Cc: PDP UNIX Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: gzip on PDP-11: not so simple
In-Reply-To: <19980325161754.63486(a)freebie.lemis.com>
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>>>>> "Greg" == Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> writes:
Greg> OK, I've found the problems with gzip, and they're not
Greg> encouraging. It would appear that the undefined references are
Greg> undefined because they refer to data which is too large. Here's
Greg> the preprocessor output:
Greg> uch inbuf[ 0x8000 + 64 ]; uch outbuf[ 16384 +2048 ]; ush
Greg> d_buf[ 0x8000 ]; uch window[ 2*0x8000 ]; # 194 "gzip.c"
You need to decrease the window size -- try setting it to 8k (instead
of 32k)
There should be a
#define WSIZE 0x8000
somewhere.
It may be worth playing with a decompress only version -- compression
will take more space than decompression (you need two windows rather
than one, for a start). inbuf can be smaller, too. Try 512 bytes to
match the disc record size.
Peter C
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Wed Mar 25 17:11:36 1998
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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:41:36 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: Peter Chubb <peterc(a)softway.com.au>
Cc: PDP UNIX Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: gzip on PDP-11: not so simple
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On Wed, 25 March 1998 at 17:43:00 +1000, Peter Chubb wrote:
>>>>>> "Greg" == Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> writes:
>
> Greg> OK, I've found the problems with gzip, and they're not
> Greg> encouraging. It would appear that the undefined references are
> Greg> undefined because they refer to data which is too large. Here's
> Greg> the preprocessor output:
>
> Greg> uch inbuf[ 0x8000 + 64 ]; uch outbuf[ 16384 +2048 ]; ush
> Greg> d_buf[ 0x8000 ]; uch window[ 2*0x8000 ]; # 194 "gzip.c"
>
> You need to decrease the window size -- try setting it to 8k (instead
> of 32k)
>
> There should be a
> #define WSIZE 0x8000
> somewhere.
Correct. Unfortunately, it's not as simple as that. Here's the
definition:
#ifndef WSIZE
# define WSIZE 0x8000 /* window size--must be a power of two, and */
#endif /* at least 32K for zip's deflate method */
> It may be worth playing with a decompress only version -- compression
> will take more space than decompression (you need two windows rather
> than one, for a start).
Yes, that was really what I was thinking of doing with unzip, rather
than excising the unzip part from gunzip.
> inbuf can be smaller, too. Try 512 bytes to match the disc record
> size.
Sure, once I get into serious modifications I can try a number of
things. The trouble is, I just don't have the time. I thought it was
worth 15 minutes to see what it would do, and the first attempts
looked encouraging. Unfortunately, the second attempts didn't :-(
Greg
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<Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but ISTR that the dateset at startup
<just set MM/DD HH/MM and relies on reading the year last written in a fil
<somewhere. If you run 'date' as root once the system is up, you can set
<year as well.
You are correct. I works.
Now I have four systems running some form unix (Linux, Venix, Ultrix, and
V7) and their resemblence at the user level is good but at the sysadmin
they might as well be from different worlds. Granted, they are different
platforms.
Allison
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Mar 18 06:59:03 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803172059.HAA01365(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Sunchip package [was Assember in C?]
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 07:59:03 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <199803171500.KAA03862(a)link.link-systems.com> from Ken Wellsch at "Mar 17, 98 10:00:36 am"
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In article by Ken Wellsch:
[ Ken confirms that the Xinu distribution for the PDP-11 includes
the sunchip package, which is a C compiler and assembler, all
written in C ]
> Chip is the "Cornell Hypothetical Instructional Processor." It has a
> PDP11-like architecture and supports virtual memory.
> description can be found in the technical report:
>
> To run the simulator for this machine, you need a 4.1bsd (or newer) Unix
> system. The distribution also contains a development environment for CHIP
> containing a C compiler, assembler, loader and various other tools. To
> run the development software, you currently need Digital Equipment Corp.
> VAX computer. However, with minimal effort, all of this software should
> be able to run on any host with UNIX.
>
> [...]
>
> ----------------------------------- end of README --------------------
>
> P.S. As I suspected and feared,
>
> % diff -r Trees/V7/usr/src/cmd/c Xinu/src/cmd/cc11
>
> indicates the C compiler provided in all these archives (Xinu,
> CHIP, sunCHIP) are directly derived from the V6/V7 compiler.
So is the DECUS C compiler, I hear. Is there any native C compiler
for the PDP-11 which isn't derived from V6/V7?
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Mar 18 07:39:18 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803172139.IAA01634(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Sunchip compiler -- how to get it.
To: Milo.Velimirovic(a)uwlax.edu
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 08:39:18 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <9803172136.AA03640(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu> from Milo Velimirovic at "Mar 17, 98 03:36:20 pm"
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In article by Milo Velimirovic:
> Postscript to previous note,
>
> Where might I obtain the sunCHIP C compiler for comparison purposes?
You need to fetch the Xinu distribution. I haven't got time to unpack the
compiler sections right now, but you can get the whole tarball at
ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/incoming/DISTR.lsi.tar.gz
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Mar 18 08:41:55 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803172241.JAA01741(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Real Origin of the DECUS C Compiler?
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 09:41:55 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <199803172238.RAA24010(a)link.link-systems.com> from Ken Wellsch at "Mar 17, 98 05:38:12 pm"
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In article by Ken Wellsch:
> I wasn't aware the DECUS C compiler (written in assembler) took anything
> from V6 and/or V7 but I may well be wrong. The DECUS C stuff had a
> special interest to me back in the Waterloo days because I believe
> a former U of Waterloo person wrote it long ago...
Hmm, that's what I'd heard. Perhaps the person who told me this was wrong.
Can anybody tell us the correct origins of the DECUS C compiler?
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Mar 18 11:22:59 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803180122.MAA02264(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: T-shirt for SCO Unix Licenses
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:22:59 +1100 (EST)
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I had this idea for a t-shirt to celebrate the release of the SCO PDP-11
licenses. The front says:
I am
LEGALLY
CONTAMINATED
by UNIX
The back has as much kernel source code as you can print on a t-shirt.
Near the middle is the comment /* You are not expected to understand this */
Sound good?
Warren
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Wed Mar 18 11:47:42 1998
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Message-ID: <19980318121742.30724(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:17:42 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: T-shirt for SCO Unix Licenses
References: <199803180122.MAA02264(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
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On Wed, 18 March 1998 at 12:22:59 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote:
> I had this idea for a t-shirt to celebrate the release of the SCO PDP-11
> licenses. The front says:
>
> I am
> LEGALLY
> CONTAMINATED
> by UNIX
It's a nice start, but it doesn't really demonstrate the historical nature.
> The back has as much kernel source code as you can print on a t-shirt.
> Near the middle is the comment /* You are not expected to understand this */
That sounds good.
Greg
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>From "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> Wed Mar 18 12:33:46 1998
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From: "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com>
To: <wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au>, "PDP Unix Preservation" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: T-shirt for SCO Unix Licenses
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 19:33:46 -0700
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Hi Warren ...
----------
> From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
> To: PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
> Subject: T-shirt for SCO Unix Licenses
> Date: Tuesday, March 17, 1998 6:22 PM
>
> I had this idea for a t-shirt to celebrate the release of the SCO PDP-11
> licenses. The front says:
>
> I am
> LEGALLY
> CONTAMINATED
> by UNIX
>
> The back has as much kernel source code as you can print on a t-shirt.
> Near the middle is the comment /* You are not expected to understand this
*/
Do i need the SCO source license for this t-shirt ???? ;-))))
>
> Sound good?
>
>
yes
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Mar 18 12:42:38 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803180242.NAA02386(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: T-shirt for SCO Unix Licenses
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:42:38 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <19980318022245.AAA19033(a)1Cust202.tnt13.dfw5.da.uu.net> from emanuel stiebler at "Mar 17, 98 07:33:46 pm"
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> > I had this idea for a t-shirt to celebrate the release of the SCO PDP-11
> > licenses. The front says:
> >
> > I am
> > LEGALLY
> > CONTAMINATED
> > by UNIX
> >
> > The back has as much kernel source code as you can print on a t-shirt.
> > In the middle is the comment /* You are not expected to understand this */
>
> Do i need the SCO source license for this t-shirt ???? ;-))))
Yes, of course you will. You will also have to kill anybody who attempts
to read the back.
Greg Lehey also commented:
> It's a nice start, but it doesn't really demonstrate the historical nature.
Hmm, how can we rectify this?
How about a list of versions covered by the SCO License, arranged randomly
around the `I am LEGALLY CONTAMINATED by Unix' on the front?
Warren
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>From Joerg Micheel <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> Wed Mar 18 12:58:21 1998
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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:58:21 +0800 (SGT)
From: Joerg Micheel <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg>
Message-Id: <199803180258.KAA02180(a)iti.gov.sg>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Cc: brandt(a)fokus.gmd.de
Subject: Re: Real Origin of the DECUS C Compiler?
Reply-To: joerg(a)begemot.org
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# In article by Ken Wellsch:
# > I wasn't aware the DECUS C compiler (written in assembler) took anything
# > from V6 and/or V7 but I may well be wrong. The DECUS C stuff had a
# > special interest to me back in the Waterloo days because I believe
# > a former U of Waterloo person wrote it long ago...
#
# Hmm, that's what I'd heard. Perhaps the person who told me this was wrong.
# Can anybody tell us the correct origins of the DECUS C compiler?
One thing I can tell for sure: the DECUS C Compiler and the K&R CC are
completely different in their origins. I'm about 90% sure the DECUS XCC
is written in MACRO-11.
The reason I'm so sure is because we were looking at a suitable C compiler
to run on our 11/34 back in 1989 and we first mungled with the DECUS XCC.
But this one had several deficiencies, among them I remember lack of blocks
within functions, local variable initialization, difficulties with typedefs/structs.
Maybe, Harti could tell more.
We were looking into Johnson's pcc, but this one turned out to be a too big
piece of work and to slow to run on our 128 KWord machine.
Harti tried to port the Whitesmith CC from RT11, and it ran, but there were
deficiencies with the RT emulation, so we dropped that.
Finally, we took the K&R UNIX CC and reworked it so that it would pass the
DECUS XCC to produce the stage one. We wrote our own unix assembler supporting
the RSX object file format from scratch. Later, we recompiled the K&R CC on
RSX with itself. This system became our workhorse for the next 2 years, the
compiler is still amazingly fast, both in terms of runtime and the code being
produced. (Quoted: Harti)
So here are the 4 different original sources of C compilers for the 11, though,
admittedly, 2 of them would run on DEC's original OS, not on UNIX, which I guess,
makes them somewhat irrelevant to PUPS. Am I right here ? (Where do we draw the
boundary ?)
Joerg
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>From Joerg Micheel <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> Wed Mar 18 13:00:59 1998
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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:00:59 +0800 (SGT)
From: Joerg Micheel <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg>
Message-Id: <199803180300.LAA02265(a)iti.gov.sg>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Cc: brandt(a)fokus.gmd.de
Subject: Re: T-shirt for SCO Unix Licenses
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Warren writes:
# I had this idea for a t-shirt to celebrate the release of the SCO PDP-11
# licenses. The front says:
#
# I am
# LEGALLY
# CONTAMINATED
# by UNIX
#
# The back has as much kernel source code as you can print on a t-shirt.
# Near the middle is the comment /* You are not expected to understand this */
Hey, hey! Gotta make a reference to the original artwork! :-)
Joerg
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Mar 18 13:13:09 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803180313.OAA02583(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: T-shirt for SCO Unix Licenses
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:13:09 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <199803180300.LAA02265(a)iti.gov.sg> from Joerg Micheel at "Mar 18, 98 11:00:59 am"
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In article by Joerg Micheel:
> Warren writes:
>
> # I had this idea for a t-shirt to celebrate the release of the SCO PDP-11
> # licenses. The front says:
> #
> # I am
> # LEGALLY
> # CONTAMINATED
> # by UNIX
> #
> # The back has as much kernel source code as you can print on a t-shirt.
> # Near the middle is the comment /* You are not expected to understand this */
>
> Hey, hey! Gotta make a reference to the original artwork! :-)
>
> Joerg
I should say (and Joerg reminds me) that he & Harti sent me a t-shirt
a couple of years ago with a copy of boot/login sequence of V7 on the
front, and the section of the V6 kernel with the comment above on the
back. I wear it quite a bit, and my fiancee likes it too, but probably
for other reasons.
Thanks Joerg!
Warren
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>From Joerg Micheel <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> Wed Mar 18 13:40:24 1998
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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:40:24 +0800 (SGT)
From: Joerg Micheel <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg>
Message-Id: <199803180340.LAA04283(a)iti.gov.sg>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: T-shirt for SCO Unix Licenses
Reply-To: joerg(a)begemot.org
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# > # I had this idea for a t-shirt to celebrate the release of the SCO PDP-11
# > # licenses. The front says:
# > #
# > # I am
# > # LEGALLY
# > # CONTAMINATED
# > # by UNIX
# > #
# > # The back has as much kernel source code as you can print on a t-shirt.
# > # Near the middle is the comment /* You are not expected to understand this */
# >
# > Hey, hey! Gotta make a reference to the original artwork! :-)
# >
# I should say (and Joerg reminds me) that he & Harti sent me a t-shirt
# a couple of years ago with a copy of boot/login sequence of V7 on the
# front, and the section of the V6 kernel with the comment above on the
# back. I wear it quite a bit, and my fiancee likes it too, but probably
# for other reasons.
The /* You are not expected to understand this */ is also on the second
page of Peter Salus' A Quater Century of UNIX, explaining a lot of folklore
behind the UNIX history, including things like "a tape was found on the
street to contain ...".
The "contamination" term is (as far as I can tell) originated at Berkeley.
When USL sued UCB for violating AT&T UNIX copyrights, it became apparent,
that anyone ever having had a look at the original sources would be "infected"
and be disallowed to distribute code that vaguely resembles anything in UNIX.
Kirk McKusick then showed up with "Mentally contaminated" stickers for everyone
attending the 4.4BSD Kernel Internals course at the Winter 1993 USENIX
Conference, since he would present us - guess, what - source code! (of 4.4BSD)
I still have the sticker somewhere in my collection.
Joerg
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Mar 18 14:07:23 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803180407.PAA02670(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Mental contamination (was t-shirts)
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:07:23 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <199803180340.LAA04283(a)iti.gov.sg> from Joerg Micheel at "Mar 18, 98 11:40:24 am"
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In article by Joerg Micheel:
> The /* You are not expected to understand this */ is also on the second
> page of Peter Salus' A Quater Century of UNIX, explaining a lot of folklore
> behind the UNIX history, including things like "a tape was found on the
> street to contain ...".
Yes, I'd love to lay my hands on the `50 bugs' tape. For those who don't
have Peter Salus' book (get out there & buy it!), this tape had fixes to
V6, but the lawyers prevented Bell Labs from distributing it. So, someone
`found' it lying in the street and that's how the patches found their way
out of the Labs.
>The "contamination" term is (as far as I can tell) originated at Berkeley.
>Kirk McKusick showed up with "Mentally contaminated" stickers for everyone
>attending the 4.4BSD Kernel Internals course at the Winter 1993 USENIX
>Conference, since he would present us - guess, what - source code! (of 4.4BSD)
>
> I still have the sticker somewhere in my collection.
I got one of the `Free the Berkeley 4.4' t-shirts. Good stuff.
Kirk's the guy who is working on making the 4.xBSD releases available on CD.
Please don't hassle him about it; I'll do that 8-)
I've informed him that the SCO license covers 32V. Therefore, a lot of
people will soon become eligible to receive 4.xBSD.
Warren
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On Mar 16, 22:05, Allison J Parent wrote:
> Subject: Re: V7 startup
>
> Well v7 binary runs seemingly well on my 11/73 with the kitchen sink
> (the extra and unusable accouterments). It doesn't use much though!
> The Rl02 disk does have about 5mb space.
>
> One thing I'd like to do is have some additional storage other than the
> one RL02 drive I have. I figure that could easily be a RX02 but it's not
> obvious how to add that (to V7unix that is). The RQDX3/RD52 would be
> nice but I'll settle for a RX01/2.
I think I have the RX driver somewhere. Might take a while to find, though.
> The other is the date is 1988... month and day are setable but year?
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but ISTR that the dateset at startup does
just set MM/DD HH/MM and relies on reading the year last written in a file
somewhere. If you run 'date' as root once the system is up, you can set the
year as well.
> The last one bugged me some... there is no shutdown! To kill the system
> all I could do was make sure there weren't any excess processes running
> do a sync and hit restart. I assume this is ok as I use the same method
> for venix on the pro350, so far I haven't mashed that system.
Mine has a script which includes a umount (you won't strictly need that for a
single drive) and a sync or two, and a little message. It might have a 'kill
-1 1' to take it to single-user mode. Other than that, just halt it after a
sync.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
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<The kernel you got probably doesn't have much else. I could build anoth
<kernel for you. Once you get the source license, you'll be able to do i
<youself!
The probability source license is currently low, that cost is currently
out of my reach. The other problem with only a RL02 I doubt there is
compile space enough. The need to compile to get a bigger device is
hampered by the lack of a bigger device. A built kernal would be
desireable. In the mean time I can do a lot of learning off this one.
My wish list is MSCP disks, RL02, RX02, DLV11j, TK50 support and
networking. That's likely too much.
I'd be happy if I could mount a RX02 or MSCP disk even if I can't boot
off it.
That reminds me. Why can't the 11/73 boot the unix RL pack directly from
ODT/console boot? It does boot RSTS and RT-11 packs. the boot block
munged?
Allison
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<The kernel you got probably doesn't have much else. I could build anothe
<kernel for you. Once you get the source license, you'll be able to do it
<youself!
I believe it's the supnick V7 binary. that should be a known version to
those that have run the emulator (I haven't).
< date [ yymmddhhmm [ .ss ] ]
Date wants to see MM/DD HH/MM and that is it. Anything else causes
error and it asks again.
<What serial devices do you have? I think V7 expected hardwired things
<like KL-11s.
11/73 console DL. I'll look to see of I can lock the console settings.
I know on the 11/23 that can be done. Keep in mind I run Q-bus.
< even allow even parity
< -even disallow even parity
< odd allow odd parity
< -odd disallow odd parity
< 50 75 110 134 150 200 300 600 1200 1800 2400 4800 9600
No selection of number of data bits??
< http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/manpages.html
I've been relying on the linux ones and the Ultrix manuals I have.
Allison
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<You might also want to do
<
<STTY -LCASE
<
<when you get in to be able to use mixed-case.
Your kidding, right? %-| I would have assumed mixed unless otehrwise
specified.
In either case I had it up and running though I think I didn't have
timesharing going.
Allison
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Well v7 binary runs seemingly well on my 11/73 with the kitchen sink
(the extra and unusable accouterments). It doesn't use much though!
The Rl02 disk does have about 5mb space.
One thing I'd like to do is have some additional storage other than the
one RL02 drive I have. I figure that could easily be a RX02 but it's not
obvious how to add that (to V7unix that is). The RQDX3/RD52 would be
nice but I'll settle for a RX01/2.
The other is the date is 1988... month and day are setable but year?
Is there any way to get it to stay in 8/n/1 (my system(s) default) rather
than 7/e/1.
The last one bugged me some... there is no shutdown! To kill the system
all I could do was make sure there weren't any excess processes running
do a sync and hit restart. I assume this is ok as I use the same method
for venix on the pro350, so far I haven't mashed that system.
Allison
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Mar 17 13:15:05 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803170315.OAA00560(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: V7 startup
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 14:15:05 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <199803170305.AA05406(a)world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Mar 16, 98 10:05:52 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
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In article by Allison J Parent:
> One thing I'd like to do is have some additional storage other than the
> one RL02 drive I have. I figure that could easily be a RX02 but it's not
> obvious how to add that (to V7unix that is). The RQDX3/RD52 would be
> nice but I'll settle for a RX01/2.
The kernel you got probably doesn't have much else. I could build another
kernel for you. Once you get the source license, you'll be able to do it
youself!
> The other is the date is 1988... month and day are setable but year?
# man date
DATE(1) DATE(1)
NAME
date - print and set the date
SYNOPSIS
date [ yymmddhhmm [ .ss ] ]
DESCRIPTION
If no argument is given, the current date and time are
printed. If an argument is given, the current date is
set. yy is the last two digits of the year; the first mm
is the month number; dd is the day number in the month; hh
is the hour number (24 hour system); the second mm is the
minute number; .ss is optional and is the seconds.
> Is there any way to get it to stay in 8/n/1 (my system(s) default) rather
> than 7/e/1.
What serial devices do you have? I think V7 expected hardwired things
like KL-11s.
Anyway, here's some of the stty(1) manual.
SYNOPSIS
stty [ option ... ]
DESCRIPTION
Stty sets certain I/O options on the current output termi-
nal. With no argument, it reports the current settings of
the options. The option strings are selected from the
following set:
even allow even parity
-even disallow even parity
odd allow odd parity
-odd disallow odd parity
50 75 110 134 150 200 300 600 1200 1800 2400 4800 9600
exta extb
Set terminal baud rate to the number given, if
possible. (These are the speeds supported by the
DH-11 interface).
> The last one bugged me some... there is no shutdown! To kill the system
> all I could do was make sure there weren't any excess processes running
> do a sync and hit restart. I assume this is ok as I use the same method
> for venix on the pro350, so far I haven't mashed that system.
I think that's all you could do.
Warren
P.S Online mans at:
http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/manpages.html
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Thanks Warren,
<Have a look at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/pupsfaq.html
I'll go back and reread it.
>>>>>< @unix <<<<<<<
THAT'S what I was trying to remember!
Allison
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Thanks to a member I now have V7 (supnik) Binary on RL02 to try out.
Several questions:
What hardware does it expect (besides RL02)? This is so I can configure
the 11/73 or 11/23 as it expects.
When I boot it on the 11/73 (1mb ram, RLV21, RX02, RQDX3(rd52/RX33),
DLV11j currently) using RT-11 BOOT/FOREIGN I do get a "@" and it's
not ODT. What commands do I issues to get going from there?
Allison
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Mar 17 08:49:32 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803162249.JAA02937(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: V7 startup
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:49:32 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <199803162245.AA08767(a)world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Mar 16, 98 05:45:19 pm"
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In article by Allison J Parent:
>
> Thanks to a member I now have V7 (supnik) Binary on RL02 to try out.
>
> Several questions:
>
> What hardware does it expect (besides RL02)? This is so I can configure
> the 11/73 or 11/23 as it expects.
Have a look at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/pupsfaq.html
> When I boot it on the 11/73 (1mb ram, RLV21, RX02, RQDX3(rd52/RX33),
> DLV11j currently) using RT-11 BOOT/FOREIGN I do get a "@" and it's
> not ODT. What commands do I issues to get going from there?
Instructions are in Bob Supnik's emulator readme:
2.1.3 UNIX V7
UNIX V7 is contained on a single RL02 disk image. To boot UNIX:
sim> set cpu 18b
sim> set rl0 RL02
sim> att rl0 unix_v7_rl.dsk
sim> boot rl0
@unix
login: root
password: pdp
# ls -l
Warren
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Maybe I'm just being overly pedantic, or maybe I don't understand US
customs that well, but I can't work out where to sign the SCO license
agreement. Can anybody tell me?
Greg
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Mar 16 15:02:01 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803160502.QAA02064(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Where do you sign the SCO License agreement
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:02:01 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <19980316115531.52411(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Mar 16, 98 11:55:31 am"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
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In article by Greg Lehey:
> Maybe I'm just being overly pedantic, or maybe I don't understand US
> customs that well, but I can't work out where to sign the SCO license
> agreement. Can anybody tell me?
Should I put this in the getlicense web page?
Warren
F. The AUTHORIZED COUNTRY for this Agreement shall be ______________________.
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, the parties have caused this Agreement to be
executed by their duly authorized representatives.
LICENSEE: THE SANTA CRUZ OPERATION, INC.
__________________________________ <--- Greg Lehey Mr
Name Title
__________________________________ <--- Your address
Address
__________________________________
Address
__________________________________
Address
__________________________________
By <---- Ignore, hangover from old
AT&T licences where
__________________________________ organisational license
Print or Type Name and title (named above) is authorised
by an individual (here)
__________________________________
Phone and FAX, please <--- Phone, fax, email address
__________________________________
Email address - required
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Mar 16 15:40:15 1998
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Message-ID: <19980316161015.07896(a)freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:10:15 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Where do you sign the SCO License agreement
References: <19980316115531.52411(a)freebie.lemis.com> <199803160502.QAA02064(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
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On Mon, 16 March 1998 at 16:02:01 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by Greg Lehey:
>> Maybe I'm just being overly pedantic, or maybe I don't understand US
>> customs that well, but I can't work out where to sign the SCO license
>> agreement. Can anybody tell me?
>
> Should I put this in the getlicense web page?
A good idea, but...
I hate to appear obtuse, but this doesn't tell me either. Are you
saying I should sign where it says "By"?
Greg
> F. The AUTHORIZED COUNTRY for this Agreement shall be ______________________.
>
> IN WITNESS WHEREOF, the parties have caused this Agreement to be
> executed by their duly authorized representatives.
>
> LICENSEE: THE SANTA CRUZ OPERATION, INC.
>
> __________________________________ <--- Greg Lehey Mr
> Name Title
>
> __________________________________ <--- Your address
> Address
>
> __________________________________
> Address
>
> __________________________________
> Address
>
> __________________________________
> By <---- Ignore, hangover from old
> AT&T licences where
> __________________________________ organisational license
> Print or Type Name and title (named above) is authorised
> by an individual (here)
> __________________________________
> Phone and FAX, please <--- Phone, fax, email address
>
> __________________________________
> Email address - required
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Mar 16 15:44:09 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803160544.QAA02167(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Where do you sign the SCO License agreement
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:44:09 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <19980316161015.07896(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Mar 16, 98 04:10:15 pm"
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In article by Greg Lehey:
> On Mon, 16 March 1998 at 16:02:01 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote:
> > In article by Greg Lehey:
> >> Maybe I'm just being overly pedantic, or maybe I don't understand US
> >> customs that well, but I can't work out where to sign the SCO license
> >> agreement. Can anybody tell me?
> >
> > Should I put this in the getlicense web page?
>
> A good idea, but...
>
> I hate to appear obtuse, but this doesn't tell me either. Are you
> saying I should sign where it says "By"?
No, just fill in the top section. Leave the `by' section alone, as you
ARE your own representative.
The only time you'd fill out the bottom section is if you were buying
a license for a company, e.g
Sproggs Inc.
5 Looney road,
SPOTSWOLD. NSW. 2001
by
Warren Toomey
etc etc etc.
Hope this helps.
Warren
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>From Stacy Minkin <stacy(a)asia.uznet.net> Mon Mar 16 17:00:16 1998
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From: Stacy Minkin <stacy(a)asia.uznet.net>
Message-Id: <199803160700.MAA00643(a)asia.Uznet.NET>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: RQDX3 problems
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Hi pdp people!
Few days ago I wrote about my hardware problems and asked
for hardware guru. Now I've solved some of them -
I checked my backplane and it was 18-bits I wired
insufficient A19-A21 signals and my CPU acessed memory and
now it runs ok. But! I still do not know what happens to
my RQDX3!
I know that this question has little relation to UNIX
and apologize for that.
I hardly suspect circuitry fault but may be some
other reasons. It looks like this:
-My RQDX3 is now connected to simple 5-inch floppy drive
when I power up the machine I see no activity on ANY
pin of RQDX3 to RQDX SIG. DIST. 50-pin connector! I mean
there is no triggering signals hence my floppy
also does nothing. When I try to execute bootstrap or
simply debug RQDX3 registers from console it looks like this:
RESET
CLR @#1772150
<checking 1772152 - it holds 5500 - kinda normal>
MOV #100000,@#1772152 ; controller passes INIT step 1
; no ints enabled, no vector specified,
; UDA OWN bit set. Rings are zero length
<checking 1772152 - it holds 10000 - step one passed>
MOV #xxxxxx,@#1772152 ; controller passes INIT step 2
; specifying low address bits
<checking 1772152 - it holds 20000 or something alike -
no error bit is set - I'm sure- step2 passed>
MOV #0,@#1772152 ; controller passes INIT step 3 - specifying
; high address bits>
<here we can wait for eternity!!!!!!!! Step 3 will never complete>
Does anybody know what does it mean? I also have TMSCP TQK70
controller but no tape drive for it. When I try to run it there
is absolutely similar situation - I think this happens each time
[T]MSCP controller tries to powerup without any drives connected to it.
So I'm looking for help from somebody who can give a hint
about which signal should i check to assertain in absence of hardware fault.
I have no drawings for RQDX3 neither user's guide. It can even be caused
by wrong setting of switches/jumpers - I dont know.
Stacy.
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>From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Tue Mar 17 01:41:14 1998
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CC: PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Where do you sign the SCO License agreement
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Greg,
Since none of the responses seem to really answer your question,
here's what I did:
I signed my name on the very first line where it says "Name".
I then printed my name on the line where it says "Print or Type Name".
If this is incorrect, I guess I'll get it back!
Dave
Warren Toomey wrote:
>
> In article by Greg Lehey:
> > On Mon, 16 March 1998 at 16:02:01 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote:
> > > In article by Greg Lehey:
> > >> Maybe I'm just being overly pedantic, or maybe I don't understand US
> > >> customs that well, but I can't work out where to sign the SCO license
> > >> agreement. Can anybody tell me?
> > >
> > > Should I put this in the getlicense web page?
> >
> > A good idea, but...
> >
> > I hate to appear obtuse, but this doesn't tell me either. Are you
> > saying I should sign where it says "By"?
>
> No, just fill in the top section. Leave the `by' section alone, as you
> ARE your own representative.
>
> The only time you'd fill out the bottom section is if you were buying
> a license for a company, e.g
>
> Sproggs Inc.
> 5 Looney road,
> SPOTSWOLD. NSW. 2001
>
> by
>
> Warren Toomey
> etc etc etc.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Warren
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I'm trying to set up a cross-development environment for 2.11BSD
(running under 4.4BSD), and I've run into trouble because the
assembler's written in, well, assembler. It would be Real Convenient
if I could find an assembler written in C. Does anybody know of one?
Greg
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>From Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> Thu Mar 12 01:29:23 1998
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From: Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-Id: <199803111529.KAA26566(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Subject: Re: Does anybody have an assembler in C?
To: grog(a)lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:29:23 -0500 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <19980311163735.37825(a)freebie.lemis.com> from "Greg Lehey" at Mar 11, 98 04:37:35 pm
Organization: University of Waterloo, Math Faculty Computing Facility
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Tim Shoppa I believe is familiar with the "chip" or "sunchip" tar bundle
that contained a PDP-11 C compiler, assembler and loader. I could swear
the assember was in C - I am sure because I recall fighting with all the
code to port it a long time ago to another UNIX box. Now I was the jerk
that kept saying "gee that C compiler sure looks a lot like the V6/V7
C compiler" (yeah I know they are different - I never bothered to go into
the details of precisely which one it matched more closely). If Tim
does not still have the contents I know I've got it archived away and
can fetch that part for you. -- Ken
| From owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Mar 11 01:16:07 1998
|
| I'm trying to set up a cross-development environment for 2.11BSD
| (running under 4.4BSD), and I've run into trouble because the
| assembler's written in, well, assembler. It would be Real Convenient
| if I could find an assembler written in C. Does anybody know of one?
|
| Greg
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>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Thu Mar 12 02:36:33 1998
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9803111636.AA08101(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: Does anybody have an assembler in C?
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 08:36:33 -0800 (PST)
Cc: shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca
In-Reply-To: <199803111529.KAA26566(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> from "Ken Wellsch" at Mar 11, 98 10:29:23 am
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> Tim Shoppa I believe is familiar with the "chip" or "sunchip" tar bundle
> that contained a PDP-11 C compiler, assembler and loader.
Vaguely. I'll try to track down the exact reference - I'm not
sure whether your referring to the DECUS C package or not.
> code to port it a long time ago to another UNIX box. Now I was the jerk
> that kept saying "gee that C compiler sure looks a lot like the V6/V7
> C compiler" (yeah I know they are different - I never bothered to go into
> the details of precisely which one it matched more closely).
I seem to recall that the DECUS C compiler is written in MACRO-11 assembly -
and pretty much a straight translation of the V6/V7 C compiler - but
with different run time libraries for RSX and RT-11. Does
this ring a bell? Or am I completely on the wrong track?
Tim.
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>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Thu Mar 12 04:21:00 1998
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9803111821.AA19967(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: Does anybody have an assembler in C?
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:21:00 -0800 (PST)
Cc: shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca
In-Reply-To: <9803111636.AA08101(a)alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at Mar 11, 98 08:36:33 am
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> > Tim Shoppa I believe is familiar with the "chip" or "sunchip" tar bundle
> > that contained a PDP-11 C compiler, assembler and loader.
>
> Vaguely. I'll try to track down the exact reference - I'm not
> sure whether your referring to the DECUS C package or not.
Taking a quick look at the DECUS C package, I see that isn't the answer.
There's an "as"-style assembler there written in MACRO-11, though :-).
I think you were referring to the XINU-11 package available by anonymous
ftp from sunsite:
ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/xinu
in particular, if you look in
ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/xinu/
unpacked/src/cmd/as11
you'll find the "as11" sources in C, specifically written for BSD4.3 on
a VAX.
I have to admit that I'm not fully aware of the copyrights regarding
the XINU package. If research shows that this is freely distributable,
is this something we'd want to distribute through the PUPS archive,
Warren?
Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
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>From Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> Thu Mar 12 04:22:47 1998
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From: Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-Id: <199803111822.NAA31588(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Subject: Re: Does anybody have an assembler in C?
To: shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 13:22:47 -0500 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <9803111636.AA08101(a)alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at Mar 11, 98 08:36:33 am
Organization: University of Waterloo, Math Faculty Computing Facility
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Tim,
No, the DECUS C compiler is a very different kettle of fish. Sorry to
be so vague - I can only go by memory now as all my archived info is on
CD-ROM's at home. Back in the mid to late 80's a few folks made available
a bundle put together by the folks at Purdue I think - I believe it was
related to Dr. Comer (sp?) and the Xinu stuff - but this bundle was
intended to provide a compiler environment on SunOS systems of the mid
80's to teach lower level system stuff - I've forgotten if it related
to simulating an 11 or was instead just for a cross-compiler environment
to build Xinu mini-kernels on faster platforms to then download to the LSI
11 testbed. One place I picked it up (via FTP) called it "sunchip.tar.Z"
or similar, while another I think just called it "chip.tar.Z."
I mentioned you only because I do remember grabbing it from your sunsite
archive while you were still at Caltech and later sending e-mail WRT the
licensing thing.
-- Ken
| From owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Mar 11 11:45:28 1998
|
| > Tim Shoppa I believe is familiar with the "chip" or "sunchip" tar bundle
| > that contained a PDP-11 C compiler, assembler and loader.
|
| Vaguely. I'll try to track down the exact reference - I'm not
| sure whether your referring to the DECUS C package or not.
|
| > code to port it a long time ago to another UNIX box. Now I was the jerk
| > that kept saying "gee that C compiler sure looks a lot like the V6/V7
| > C compiler" (yeah I know they are different - I never bothered to go into
| > the details of precisely which one it matched more closely).
|
| I seem to recall that the DECUS C compiler is written in MACRO-11 assembly -
| and pretty much a straight translation of the V6/V7 C compiler - but
| with different run time libraries for RSX and RT-11. Does
| this ring a bell? Or am I completely on the wrong track?
|
| Tim.
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU> Thu Mar 12 06:25:03 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>
Message-Id: <199803112025.HAA16016(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Does anybody have an assembler in C?
To: shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 07:25:03 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <9803111821.AA19967(a)alph02.triumf.ca> from Tim Shoppa at "Mar 11, 98 10:21:00 am"
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In article by Tim Shoppa:
> I have to admit that I'm not fully aware of the copyrights regarding
> the XINU package. If research shows that this is freely distributable,
> is this something we'd want to distribute through the PUPS archive,
> Warren?
>
> Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
Xinu is freely distributable, as long as it's not sold as a competing
product to Doug Comer's book. It's in the archive.
Another solution for a assembler in C is some stuff I've got from a
Russian, who `ported' either cc or pcc to a Sparc, as a cross-compiler.
Greg, have a look in .miscfiles. If someone can make some order out of
this, I'll put it in the archive.
To the PUPS readers, there is a whole lot of stuff I've got but I haven't
added into the PUPS ARchive as yet:
+ System V (SCO license doesn't include it)
+ copyright stuff I haven't cleared it's release yet
+ unsorted jumble Someone has to categorise this
I could put the unsorted jumble into the PUPS Archive. Yes or no?
P.S Woke up to a barrage of email today. Wading thru it....
Warren
On Mar 8, 11:35, Tim Shoppa wrote:
> A non-legal question: the system identifies itself as "v6" when it
> boots, but there is a "v7.h" header file in the /sys directory.
> Is this maybe really a V7 system? Or maybe from an era when the
> trnasition from V6 to V7 was being made? Datestamps on the files
> are from 1982.
That would cerainly put it well into the v7 era 9by thre years). But there
were several differences, as I'm sure Tim knows, and some people didn't change.
I'd guess this one has back-ported some v7 stuff onto what was otherwise a
'legacy' system.
I think the RL02 drivers were written in Boston for v7 (or am I thinking of the
RX02 driver?). Maybe v7.h has something to do with allowing this driver to be
used?
> Note that although the system was generated for a 11/23, it's
> running on a 11/73. The fact that it has more memory than "max" seems
> to confuse the system horribly when it goes into multi-user mode. Short
> of doing a lobotomy, is there any way to get around this?
I don't know, but if anyone else does, please tell! My 11/23 system has a
kernel panic if I try to run it on an 11/73 (by swapping out the CPU board).
> # LS GAMES
> ADVENT CHESS CUBIC TTT WUMP
> BJ CORE MOO TTT.K WUMPUS
Interesting... ADVENT is missing from my v7. Any chance of a copy?
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
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>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Tue Mar 10 03:37:04 1998
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9803091737.AA13243(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: V6 RL02 images. Binary or Source?
To: shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 09:37:04 -0800 (PST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <9803091245.ZM21377(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from "Pete Turnbull" at Mar 9, 98 12:45:16 pm
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> That would cerainly put it well into the v7 era 9by thre years). But there
> were several differences, as I'm sure Tim knows, and some people didn't change.
> I'd guess this one has back-ported some v7 stuff onto what was otherwise a
> 'legacy' system.
>
> I think the RL02 drivers were written in Boston for v7 (or am I thinking of the
> RX02 driver?). Maybe v7.h has something to do with allowing this driver to be
> used?
Well, this is what V7.h says:
#DEFINE V7CODE 7 /* IF COMPILING V7 COMPATIBLE CODE */
#DEFINE V7 (U.U_SYSTEM == V7CODE)
and this is what a config file looks like:
# CAT CONFIG.MLAB
# CONFIGURATION FOR EXTENDED CARE PATHOLOGY SYSTEM WITH RL
CONSOLE
SYS
MEM
RL
RX2
ROOT RL 0
SWAP RL 0 19000 1480
CPU 23
FPU
DL 5
LTC
It also looks like there's support in the sources for 11/34's and 11/45's,
in addition to the 11/23:
# CD CONF
# LS
ADEVS C.C DATA.S L-MLAB.S MAKE-MLAB
BDEVS C.TM F23.O L.S MAKEFILE
CDEVS C23.C F23.S L23.S MKCONF.C
MAKEFILE CONFIG F45.S M23.S SYSFIX
C-MLAB.C CONFIG.AWK KDWORD.S M34.S SYSFIX.C
C-MLAB.O CONFIG.MLAB L-MLAB.O M45.S
> > Note that although the system was generated for a 11/23, it's
> > running on a 11/73. The fact that it has more memory than "max" seems
> > to confuse the system horribly when it goes into multi-user mode. Short
> > of doing a lobotomy, is there any way to get around this?
>
> I don't know, but if anyone else does, please tell! My 11/23 system has a
> kernel panic if I try to run it on an 11/73 (by swapping out the CPU board).
Maybe it is the CPU and not the memory that's causing the problem - I was
probably a bit premature in jumping to the conculsion about the memory
(perhaps my 2.9BSD experiences aren't applicable here.)
> > # LS GAMES
> > ADVENT CHESS CUBIC TTT WUMP
> > BJ CORE MOO TTT.K WUMPUS
>
> Interesting... ADVENT is missing from my v7. Any chance of a copy?
Sure. Warren's already moved the RL02 image to Boot_images in the PUPS
archive, and at some point someone (me? Warren?) might find enough
copious free time to strip out the sources.
The big problem with this V6 system at the moment is that I can't find
the 'mount' executable. I suspect that the system manager might have removed
or (more likely) renamed it as a security precaution. (Security? Unix?
well, you can try...) I'd like to mount one of the user disks on a
second RL drive, but without 'mount' this is hard. Anyone have any ideas?
"/dev/rl1" is real and works fine, as I can "od /dev/rl1" without a problem.
# MOUNT /DEV/RL0 /MNT
MOUNT NOT FOUND
# CD /
# LS -A
. ETC MNT RX UNIX.RXRL
.. FIXOWNER MNT1 SRC UNIX.TMP
.MAIL HMBOOT MNT2 SYS USR
.PROFILE JUNK NAMES TMP V7BOOT
A.OUT LIB OLDUNIX UNIX X
BIN LIB.OLD OLDUNIX.25.7 UNIX.JONES XLIB
DEV LOOP RLUBOOT UNIX.MLAB
# CAT .PROFILE
V7=YES
UMASK 002
HOME=\'PWD\'
: MAIL=$HOME/.MAIL
B=$HOME/BIN
PATH=:$B:/BIN:/USR/BIN:/USR/BIN/V7:/USR/UCB
PS1="$ "
UPTIME
: 'ECHO -N "FORTUNE: "; /USR/GAMES/FORTUNE'
# LS /BIN
A DB GREP NEWGRP SH.V7
ANVART DC HELP NM SH.YALE
AR DCHECK ICHECK OAS SIZE
AR-NEW DD IF OCC SORT
AR-OLD DF KILL OD STRIP
AS DISKCOPY L OLDCHEF STTY
AT DISKCOPY.OLD LD OLS SU
AWK DSW LINK OPR SUM
BAS DU LIST OXY SYNC
BYE DUMP LN PASSWD TIME
CAT E LOGIN PGS TP
CC ECHO LPR PR TP.OLD
CDB ED LS PS TS
CHGRP EXIT LST RESTOR TTY
CHMOD F MAIL REW UNIQ
CHOWN FC MAKE RM WHO
CLRI FF MENU RMDIR WRITE
CMP FILE MKDIR SH XTP
CP FS MV SH.BELL XY
CSH FTN NCC SH.DEFAULT
DATE GOTO NCHECK SH.TEST
# LS /USR/BIN
! DIFF GSI NCCC SPLIT
STTY DIFFDIR HACK NICE SRCCOM
AC DITTO HEAD NMS STARTLP
ARCV DOSCVT HEX NOHUP STOP
ASA DOSDT IGNORE NOPARITY STRINGS
BANNER DOUBLE INDEX NROFF SYSMON
BASIC DOWN INFO OFFLINE TABEXP
BATCHCARDS DRIBBLE IUL ONLINE TABS
BC DSTAT JOIN PARITY TB
BCD DTC KWT PF TCON
BCPIO DTCOPY LABELS PFE TEE
BCPL DTFS LAST PFSH TOASA
BEEP ENTER LC PFWAIT TOUCH
C EOT LENGTH PG TR
CAL ERASE LIBGEN PLOT TRIM
CAP EXPAND LIBSORT PLOTTER TSET
CCC FDB LINES PP TT
CHDATE FED LINKER PPR TX4010
CHEF FERR LISP PROF TXOFF
CHK FEXPR LOADVFU PT TXON
CKDIR FIELDS LOC PWD TYPO
CLEAR FILDES LOCK QP U2L
COL FIND LONG RADPK UC
COLS FIX LPI RC UNARCV
COMM FIXLEN M2U READPPT V0CVT
COST FMT M2U.OLD REFS V7CVT
CPALL FMT_INDEX M6 ROFF VT125PLOT
CPIO FMTCARD MAN RTDT WC
CREF FMTINDEX MARK RTLD WHERE
CRPOST FMTSORT MESG RULER WIPE
CRYPT FOLD MNTBIN RUN WRAP
CS FORM MPLOT RX2FMT XFS
CS2 FSIZE MPLOT.HIDDEN RXFMT ZERO
CTL GAMES MTS SA
CVTRT GENDATE MTSFS SKULK
DBL GRAB MVDIR SLEEP
# LS /USR/BIN/V7
/USR/BIN/V7 NOT FOUND
# LS /USR/UCB
MAIL DRIBBLE.OUT GREP PIX SSP
APROPOS EX HEAD PRINT STRINGS
ASTAGS EX.OLD IUL PRINTENV TMP
CKDIR EXPAND LAST PTAGS TOD
CLEAR EYACC LOCK PX TRA
CLOCK FLEECE LS PX34 TSET
CR3 FMT.UCB MAKEWHATIS PXP UNTMP
CTAGS FOLD MAN PXP34 VI
CXREF FROM MKSTR PXREF W
DAYTIME FTAGS MSGS RESET WHATIS
DIFFDIR FUNNY NUM SEE WHEREIS
DOUBLE GETNAME PI SETENV WHOAMI
DRIBBLE GETS PI34 SOELIM XSTR
Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
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>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Tue Mar 10 07:24:49 1998
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9803092124.AA07849(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: V6 RL02 images. Binary or Source?
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:24:49 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <9803091737.AA13243(a)alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at Mar 9, 98 09:37:04 am
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> The big problem with this V6 system at the moment is that I can't find
> the 'mount' executable.
Many thanks to Pete Turnbull, who pointed me towards /etc/mount.
Some of the "user" disks appear to be corrupted. Anyone care to tell
me where to find fsck?
Tim.
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>From Milo Velimirovic <milov(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu> Tue Mar 10 07:52:20 1998
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Date: Mon, 9 Mar 98 15:52:20 -0600
To: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Whither fsck (was: Re: V6 RL02 images. Binary or Source?)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
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Tim,
fsck doesn't exist yet in the V6 world. you want icheck and dcheck... they
need at least one argument which should be the name of a raw device
containing the filesystem you want to check. (Using the block device anme
will work but be much, much slower.)
---
Milo Velimirovic <Milo.Velimirovic(a)uwlax.edu>
Unix Computer Network Administrator (608) 785-8030
Information Technology Services -- Network Services
University of Wisconsin - La Crosse
La Crosse, Wisconsin 54601 USA 43 48 05 N 91 14 22 W
Begin forwarded message:
>
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>From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
>Subject: Re: V6 RL02 images. Binary or Source?
>To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
>Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:24:49 -0800 (PST)
>In-Reply-To: <9803091737.AA13243(a)alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at Mar
9, 98 09:37:04 am
>Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
>
>> The big problem with this V6 system at the moment is that I can't find
>> the 'mount' executable.
>
>Many thanks to Pete Turnbull, who pointed me towards /etc/mount.
>
>Some of the "user" disks appear to be corrupted. Anyone care to tell
>me where to find fsck?
>
>Tim.
>
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Mar 10 10:40:59 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803100040.LAA10668(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Just in from Dion
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 11:40:59 +1100 (EST)
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Guys,
Just got this in from Dion re the license. No word as to date of
availability yet, I did say `we're waiting....' though.
I sent Dion a draft set of instructions on how to get the license.
Part of his return email goes:
> 4. For AUTHORIZED COUNTRY, I suggest writing:
>
> All countries not excluded by Section 5.2
Yes, very good. I have no idea how to find that damned
govt list. I think our reference is out of date but who
> 5. You need to list the DESIGNATED CPUs. [Do we? I can't see where
> on the draft to fill this in] If you have PDP-11 hardware,
> list the number and models of PDP-11s, e.g
No, it doesnt say that. It says that on our request, you must
furnish the list, but we dont demand it up front. In practice,
I doubt we will ever ask anyone to furnish this, much less
do an on-site visit. Of course, it might be a fun way to
win a trip to Australia if I volunteer to go on a tour to
see that our highly valuable intellectual property is
being treated right... ;-)
That sounds good to me.
Warren
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Mar 11 13:16:06 1998
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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 14:16:06 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803110316.OAA14910(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
To: unixarc(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: PDP-11 UNIX Src Licenses Available
Hello, you are receiving this mail for one of the following reasons:
+ you signed a petition urging SCO to make source licenses for
PDP-11 UNIX available
+ your filled in a survey detailing what you wanted in such a
source license
+ you are a member of the PUPS mailing list
I am glad to announce that, as a result of the petition, SCO have made
source licenses available for most versions of PDP-11 UNIX. The essential
details of the license are:
Covers research Editions 1 to 7, and 32V.
Covers derived versions of UNIX which ran on PDP-11s.
Specifically excludes System V onwards.
Full source code, binaries and documentation.
Personal, non-commercial use.
Exchange of sources and modifications to other licensees.
Non-disclosure to unlicensed people.
The cost is US$100. Details on how to obtain the license are available at
http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/getlicense.html
SCO will not ship any media with this license. The PDP-11 Unix Preservation
Society has a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut CD-ROMs and tapes
in order to distribute the PUPS Archive of old Unix software to licensed
people. Details about this archive are available at
http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/pupsfaq.html
We would like a few more licensed people to volunteer to create CD-ROMs and
tapes, to take the load off the existing volunteers.
Finally, none of this would have been possible without the immense support
which we received from Dion Johnson within SCO. He battled with the legal
eagles over a period of 18 months or so to make the license available. If
you can, please send Dion a thank you card at the address
The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc.
400 Encinal Street
Santa Cruz, CA 95061-1900
United States of America
Attention: Dion Johnson
This will be a surprise for him, but I'm sure he will appreciate your
thanks.
In turn, I would like to thank you all for your support. Without the
signatures on the petition, none of this would have been possible.
Warren Toomey wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Mar 11 13:52:01 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803110352.OAA15256(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: SCO PDP-11 Licenses Available
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 14:52:01 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
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Most of you on the PUPS mailing list should have received notice that SCO
are now selling the PDP-11 Unix source licenses we have been waiting so long
for. If not, details are on the PUPS web page, and at:
http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/getlicense.html
We only have 6 volunteers ready to write media (CDs, tapes) holding the
archive of PDP-11 Unix material. Anybody else want to volunteer?
SCO will let us set up password-protected ftp sites. I will set up the
PUPS archive here for password-protected ftp. Would anybody else be prepared
to mirror this and also provide password-protected ftp? I'd like one
in the US and one in Europe.
Cheers all,
Warren
On Mar 5, 12:59, Stacy Minkin wrote:
> Currently I've started KDF11 and it seems to be ok.
> Problems are: It has lots of switches (the same for MSV-11 boards and
> RQDX3 and all of that)
You probably don't need to change anyhing on the RQDX3 -- they're usually set
up correctly (because they'e not often changed :-)
> Same story with RQDX3 - currently I have no RDx disks so I thought
> that boot my system from RX50 is not a bad idea... I've plugged
> standard 5 inch floppy to RQDX3 sig. dist. connector labeled "RX50"
> and fired up the machine. Got nothing.
During init, the RQDX3 probes the disk(s) to see what's there. For a floppy,
it checks for an RX50 by selecting the drive, finding track zero, and then
switching the side select. On a real RX50, which actually behaves as two
separate single-sided drives, this turns off the track zero signal; but not on
any normal drive. There's a way to fool it, but you need to modify the drive
or add a little circuitry. However, if you can find an RX33-compatible drive,
that would be more useful anyway.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
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>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Fri Mar 6 02:25:43 1998
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9803051625.AA03469(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: Hardware guru needed!
To: stacy(a)asia.uznet.net (Stacy Minkin)
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:25:43 -0800 (PST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca
In-Reply-To: <199803050759.MAA00282(a)harrier.asiasys.com> from "Stacy Minkin" at Mar 5, 98 12:59:48 pm
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> Those new machine is the
> main reason for joining to this list for me.
> It includes: KDF-11 CPU, RQDX3, DHQ11 8 line async option,
> TQK70 tape controller, 1.5Mbyte of memory etc. etc.
> I also have the complete BSD2.9 source distribution
> in tar file and like to run all of the above.
Big problem: BSD2.9 doesn't support your disk (RQDX3) or tape (TQK70)
controllers. I'd suggest BSD2.11, but it doesn't run on your CPU.
> Currently I've started KDF11 and it seems to be ok.
> Problems are: It has lots of switches (the same for MSV-11 boards and
> RQDX3 and all of that) and have very little docs about
> how to set it correctly.
The best place to ask about these things would be the usenet newsgroup
vmsnet.pdp-11.
Tim.
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Fri Mar 6 04:07:15 1998
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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:07:15 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199803051807.KAA22049(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Hardware guru needed!
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Hi -
> From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
> > Those new machine is the main reason for joining to this list for me.
> > It includes: KDF-11 CPU, RQDX3, DHQ11 8 line async option,
> > TQK70 tape controller, 1.5Mbyte of memory etc. etc.
>
> Big problem: BSD2.9 doesn't support your disk (RQDX3) or tape (TQK70)
> controllers. I'd suggest BSD2.11, but it doesn't run on your CPU.
That's almost two problems :-)
It might be possible to retrofit [T]MSCP support into 2.9 but it would
be a lot of work and a system with both MSCP and non-MSCP devices
would be required.
Swapping out the cpu card for a KDJ-11AB (M8192 if my memory hasn't
completely faded) wouldn't be too expensive and would speed things
up too. Hmmm, might need a MXV11 bootrom card. Perhaps a KDJ-11BB
would be a better way to go.
Steven Schultz
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>From "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Fri Mar 6 06:23:21 1998
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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:23:21 -0800
From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com>
Subject: Just got V7 going on 11/83...
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
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I just got V7 to load on my 11/83. Killes 2 hours playing wump.
Who says you need grpahics for games?
:)
Anyway, I know there's no source liscense yet, but can I get someone to
build a kernel for me? I wouldn't have to see source... It'd be real neat
to hang this off a termserver and allow telnets... I'm gonna do that
with my RSTS box real soon, the only limitation here is that V7 is only built
with support for the console.
I have the V7 image downloaded from DEC. I kermitted it to the 83, and did
COPY v7.DSK/FILE DL0:/DEVICE
It truncated something, but FSCK says the pack is fine.
I have to load RT-11 from the MSCP, then say BOOT/FOR DL0: to start V7, though
because if I tell the ROM to load DL0, it dies saying the disk isn't bootable.
But at least it runs!
-------
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>From Nickolai Zeldovich <kolya(a)zepa.net> Fri Mar 6 07:12:44 1998
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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:12:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Nickolai Zeldovich <kolya(a)zepa.net>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: PDP Prompt?
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Hello,
I'm trying to revive a PDP 11/04, but not having much luck at the moment..
I got a serial terminal hooked up to it, and upon bootup, it gives me the
following on the display:
<triangle sign><triangle sign> 177777 177776
$
apparently, $ is some sort of a prompt. It only accepts two characters,
and after, it seems, any pair of characters, will go on and give me a new
prompt.
Is this some sort of a ROM debugger? What can I tell it? I think I've
tried almost every combination of 2 letters without any success..
Some info about the PDP:
It's a 11/04, with a dual 8" floppy drive and some big cage made by MTS,
with nothing in it but a large number of slots. Has some buttons saying
'STATION 1 DUMP', 'STATION 2 DUMP', and so on.. The floppy drive has two
8" floppies in it, one of them appears to be some sort of a system floppy,
the other has no label.
Does this look like even remotely salvageable? :)
-- [ Nickolai Zeldovich // nickolai(a)zepa.net ]
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>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Fri Mar 6 07:52:14 1998
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9803052152.AA01812(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: PDP Prompt?
To: kolya(a)zepa.net (Nickolai Zeldovich)
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:52:14 -0800 (PST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980305160751.25074A-100000(a)orbit.zepa.net> from "Nickolai Zeldovich" at Mar 5, 98 04:12:44 pm
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> I'm trying to revive a PDP 11/04, but not having much luck at the moment..
> I got a serial terminal hooked up to it, and upon bootup, it gives me the
> following on the display:
>
> <triangle sign><triangle sign> 177777 177776
> $
>
> apparently, $ is some sort of a prompt. It only accepts two characters,
> and after, it seems, any pair of characters, will go on and give me a new
> prompt.
>
> Is this some sort of a ROM debugger? What can I tell it? I think I've
> tried almost every combination of 2 letters without any success..
Commands available at this prompt include:
L<space>nnnnnn<CR> - to set an address
E<space> - to examine the address set with L
D<space>nnnnnn<CR> - to deposit at an address set with L
S<CR> - begin running at the loaded address
The console ROM is very picky; all letters need to be in upper case,
and you need to type <space> and <CR> in exactly the right places.
It's also very stupid, in that if you try to Examine or Deposit to
a non-existent address, the only clue you get is that the RUN light on
the goes out and you have restart it from the front.
> It's a 11/04, with a dual 8" floppy drive and some big cage made by MTS,
> with nothing in it but a large number of slots. Has some buttons saying
> 'STATION 1 DUMP', 'STATION 2 DUMP', and so on.. The floppy drive has two
> 8" floppies in it, one of them appears to be some sort of a system floppy,
> the other has no label.
>
> Does this look like even remotely salvageable? :)
It'll never run a modernish Unix, but it will run RT-11 just fine.
Is the floppy controller a DEC RX211 (M8256) or RX11 (M7846) or some
third-party clone? Are there any boot ROM's on the M9312? The RX01
boot ROM is 23-753A9, and the RX02 boot rom is 23-811A9. If you've
got a third party RX clone controller, it may have the boot ROM on that
board. Try examining addresses 173000, 173200, 173400, 173600, and
171000 to see if a boot ROM might be living at any of these addresses.
As this is very non-Unix related, you might want to ask any other questions
you have on a more general PDP-11 related forum, such as the Usenet newsgroup
"vmsnet.pdp-11".
Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
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>From Stacy Minkin <stacy(a)asia.uznet.net> Fri Mar 6 15:34:38 1998
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From: Stacy Minkin <stacy(a)asia.uznet.net>
Message-Id: <199803060534.KAA00190(a)harrier.Uznet.NET>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Re: Hardware guru needed
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
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>What backplane? There are 16, 18 and 22 bit address backplanes and
>using the smaller with the larger memory generally does not work and
>give an address error.
>I prefer to use part/model number like H9273(a backplane) or
>M8259(memory).
How actually distinguish these backplanes?
I can check whether extended address lines are routed to slots, if
it sufficient - ok. If not - are there more differencies?
>What you need is a copy of the dec hand books that list all those details.
>Any of the volumes from the mid to late 80s would help.
No chance to get it in xUSSR!
>Standard floppy? You can use a DEC RX50 or an RX33(teacfd55gfv). If
>using the latter *all* of the jumper must be set up correctly in the
>drive. The RX33 is a 1.2m 5.25" drive with speed select. You cannot
>use a PC 5.25 360k drive or a 3.5" drive(actually it's possible but,
>very non standard and unhelpful to you at this time).
Which logical drive address should be set on floppy?
>Unless the jumpers or switches on the RQDX3 were messed with the defalt
>addresses and config are usually the way they are set and fit for use.
The time I got RQDX3 it's address was set wrong. I've changed it immediately
but there are lots of other switches...
>For the RDxx you can use a ST225(rd31), st251(rd32), QUANTUM D540(rd52),
>micropolus 1325(rd53) or MAXTOR2990(RD54) if they are formatted correctly.
>or any other drive that matches the number of heads and cylinders of those
>listed. Note those are all MFM type drives.
Has anyone formatter?
>Allison
Stacy
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>From Stacy Minkin <stacy(a)asia.uznet.net> Fri Mar 6 15:50:05 1998
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Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:50:05 +0500
From: Stacy Minkin <stacy(a)asia.uznet.net>
Message-Id: <199803060550.KAA00239(a)harrier.Uznet.NET>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Re: hardware guru needed
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>Big problem: BSD2.9 doesn't support your disk (RQDX3) or tape (TQK70)
>controllers. I'd suggest BSD2.11, but it doesn't run on your CPU.
No problem. I can write this drivers.
Pete Tornbull wrote about triggering
"TRACK0" signal in responce to triggering
"SIDE SEL". Is it the only difference?
Stacy.
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>From Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> Sat Mar 7 05:48:24 1998
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From: Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se>
To: Stacy Minkin <stacy(a)asia.uznet.net>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Re: Hardware guru needed
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About formatter..
The VAXstation 2000 can format iron beds.
You plug in 'any' mfm drive and if the enter TEST 53.
If the machine does not recognize the drive, it will prompt you for drive
parameters.
/Lars
On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, Stacy Minkin wrote:
>
> >What backplane? There are 16, 18 and 22 bit address backplanes and
> >using the smaller with the larger memory generally does not work and
> >give an address error.
>
> >I prefer to use part/model number like H9273(a backplane) or
> >M8259(memory).
> How actually distinguish these backplanes?
> I can check whether extended address lines are routed to slots, if
> it sufficient - ok. If not - are there more differencies?
>
> >What you need is a copy of the dec hand books that list all those details.
> >Any of the volumes from the mid to late 80s would help.
>
> No chance to get it in xUSSR!
>
> >Standard floppy? You can use a DEC RX50 or an RX33(teacfd55gfv). If
> >using the latter *all* of the jumper must be set up correctly in the
> >drive. The RX33 is a 1.2m 5.25" drive with speed select. You cannot
> >use a PC 5.25 360k drive or a 3.5" drive(actually it's possible but,
> >very non standard and unhelpful to you at this time).
>
> Which logical drive address should be set on floppy?
>
> >Unless the jumpers or switches on the RQDX3 were messed with the defalt
> >addresses and config are usually the way they are set and fit for use.
>
> The time I got RQDX3 it's address was set wrong. I've changed it immediately
> but there are lots of other switches...
>
> >For the RDxx you can use a ST225(rd31), st251(rd32), QUANTUM D540(rd52),
> >micropolus 1325(rd53) or MAXTOR2990(RD54) if they are formatted correctly.
> >or any other drive that matches the number of heads and cylinders of those
> >listed. Note those are all MFM type drives.
>
> Has anyone formatter?
>
>
> >Allison
>
> Stacy
>
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>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Mon Mar 9 05:35:55 1998
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9803081935.AA26778(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: V6 RL02 images. Binary or Source?
To: shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 11:35:55 -0800 (PST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980306204439.29584A-100000(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> from "Beastly Wolf" at Mar 6, 98 08:48:24 pm
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I've been sorting through some RL02's that came with a 11/23 system
that I bought at a UBC SERF sale a year or so ago. On these RL02's
there is at least one bootable V6 system, apparently generated
specifically to be run on a 11/23. This ought to be of some interest
to folks with real 11/23's with RL02 drives, as the other V6 systems
that I'm aware of don't have RL02 handlers.
Here's the question: this RL02 apparently has kernel sources in
the directories /sys/ken and /sys/dmr. Does the presence of these
files mean that I can only distribute images of this RL02 to those
with source licenses?
A non-legal question: the system identifies itself as "v6" when it
boots, but there is a "v7.h" header file in the /sys directory.
Is this maybe really a V7 system? Or maybe from an era when the
trnasition from V6 to V7 was being made? Datestamps on the files
are from 1982.
For those who are listed, a log produced while running in single-user
mode from a copy of the RL02 pack.
Note that although the system was generated for a 11/23, it's
running on a 11/73. The fact that it has more memory than "max" seems
to confuse the system horribly when it goes into multi-user mode. Short
of doing a lobotomy, is there any way to get around this?
Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
b dl0
!unix
unix v6 11/23
mem = 99 KW max = 63
# CD /SYS
# LS
V7.H FILE.H LIB1 SEG.H TTY.H
BUF.H FILSYS.H LIB2 SGTTY.H USER.H
CONF INO.H PARAM.H STAT.H
CONF.H INODE.H PROC.H SYSTM.H
DMR KEN REG.H TEXT.H
# LS DMR KEN
DMR:
MAKEFILE DHFDM.O HT.O PIR.C TC.O
AD.C DN.C IC.C PIR.O TM.C
AD.O DN.O IC.O RF.C TM.O
ADOLD.C DP.C IOCTL.C RF.O TTY.C
BDREL.C DP.O IOCTL.O RK.C TTY.O
BIO.C DUP.C IR.C RK.O TTY.S
BIO.O DUP.O IR.O RL.C TTYI.C
CAT.C DZ.C KL.C RL.O TTYI.O
CAT.O DZ.O KL.O RM04.LAYOUT TTYINEW.C
CR.C FAKE.C LP.C RP.C VS.C
CR.O FAKE.O LP.O RP.O VS.O
DC.C HM.C MEM.C RX2.C VT.C
DC.O HM.O MEM.O RX2.O VT.O
DH.C HP.C OLDRL.C STAT.C XP.C
DH.O HP.O PARTAB.C STAT.O XP.O
DHDM.C HS.C PARTAB.O SYS.C XY.C
DHDM.O HS.O PC.C SYS.O XY.O
DHFDM.C HT.C PC.O TC.C
KEN:
MAKEFILE IGET.S PIPE.C SUBR.C SYSENT.C
ALLOC.C IOCTL.C PRF.C SYS1.C TEXT.C
CLOCK.C MAIN.C RDWRI.C SYS2.C TRAP.C
FIO.C MALLOC.C SIG.C SYS3.C TRAP.S
IGET.C NAMI.C SLP.C SYS4.C
# CD /USR
# LS
ADM HANNAH LEUNG OLD WHO
BATCH HARDY LIB PROGM XLIB
BIN INCLUDE LOG RAWICZ XYD
EVANS INF LPD TMP YEUNG
FORT KNOWLES MDEC UCB
GAMES KUKAN NEEDHAM WEBB
# LS GAMES
ADVENT CHESS CUBIC TTT WUMP
BJ CORE MOO TTT.K WUMPUS
# LS UCB
MAIL DRIBBLE.OUT GREP PIX SSP
APROPOS EX HEAD PRINT STRINGS
ASTAGS EX.OLD IUL PRINTENV TMP
CKDIR EXPAND LAST PTAGS TOD
CLEAR EYACC LOCK PX TRA
CLOCK FLEECE LS PX34 TSET
CR3 FMT.UCB MAKEWHATIS PXP UNTMP
CTAGS FOLD MAN PXP34 VI
CXREF FROM MKSTR PXREF W
DAYTIME FTAGS MSGS RESET WHATIS
DIFFDIR FUNNY NUM SEE WHEREIS
DOUBLE GETNAME PI SETENV WHOAMI
DRIBBLE GETS PI34 SOELIM XSTR
#
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Mar 9 09:38:15 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803082338.KAA08954(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: FAQ of Archive of PDP-11 Unix
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:38:15 +1100 (EST)
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All,
I'm starting up a FAQ on the archive of PDP-11 Unix stuff and how to
use it. What I've got so far is at:
http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/faq1.html
but not yet linked to the other pages.
I'm happy to take other questions. I'm _very_ happy to get answers! Answers
will have attributions of course. This is a back burner thing, but I'll go
back through the mail archive and see what I can come up with.
Also note: I will add a table of contents to the top at some stage.
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Mar 9 10:18:50 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803090018.LAA09059(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: 11/04 floppy problems
To: kolya(a)zepa.net
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:18:50 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980308190743.24989A-100000(a)orbit.zepa.net> from Nickolai Zeldovich at "Mar 8, 98 07:13:08 pm"
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In article by Nickolai Zeldovich:
> I'm having a somewhat interesting problem with my PDP-11.. I'm trying to
> boot a 11/04 from a 8" floppy drive, but DX, DX0, and DX1 all make it hang
> up (RUN light goes out). Would you know what this would mean? I'm not sure
> if this question is really appropriate for the list, sicne it's not
> UNIX-related, and I've had little luck with newsgroups (seems my newsfeed
> is quite flaky).
>
> -- [ Nickolai Zeldovich // nickolai(a)zepa.net ]
I'm punting this to the mailing list ONLY because Nickolai's news access
is limited. Can someone help him with the problem?
Warren
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>From Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> Mon Mar 9 19:11:02 1998
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From: Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se>
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
cc: kolya(a)zepa.net, PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: 11/04 floppy problems
In-Reply-To: <199803090018.LAA09059(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
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NIkolai!
Your problem MIGHT be because somebody shuffled the cards for you!
There are some classical caveats when it comes to the UNIBUS based system.
a) There must be an uninterrupted grant chain all the way and no holes.
b) There are two types of slots. DMA (also called a MUD or Modified
Unibus Device) and NON DMA. Default is non DMA. To enable DMA you cut a strap
on the wirewrapped backplane. (*cringe*)...
This suggests that there are also two types of GRANT cards. One resembling
a dual QBUS grant card but with green handles and one very small "playing
card type" single card with no handle that can be (with force) inserted
backwards and thus burn the bus.
c) There must be a terminator card in the last position of the chain.
I am at a customer site right now and do not have access to my library so
I can not be more specific.. If you have any documentation handy, you should
be able to use above information and find the exact information you need.
If not, you should be able to locate the faulting device by "shortening"
the bus. You start with CPU and a mem card and install the terminator
directly after. See if you can deposit and examine stuff into RAM. Then
put in the device directly after the last MEM card and test it and so forth.
Eventually the system will fail and you have located the problem.
Either remove the problem or get back to us. =)
Note: With no documentation of the devices in question you have more problems.
Some UNIBUSes are standard UNIBUSes. Others are special UNIBUSes for special
device configurations.
The UNIBUS PDP11 (or VAX) is a challange for the technically interested
person. =)
Oh yes... You can bypass devices by using the UNIBUS cable (a long stiff
white flat cable with UNIBUS connectors in each end). Each UNIBUS sub bus is
connected with the previous with a UNIBUS continuity card that consists of
a short UNIBUS cable and two dual cards joined together to form one unit.
If you want to bypass a device, take out the continuity from the start and
end of the device, install a UNIBUS cable at the last position of the
previous sub bus system and the first in the sub bus after the bypassed
device.
UNIBUS cables, continuity cards and grants (and also the terminator) all
go in the same position across the bus and in no other place.
One error here and it is BURN baby BURN! =/
/Lars
On Mon, 9 Mar 1998, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by Nickolai Zeldovich:
> > I'm having a somewhat interesting problem with my PDP-11.. I'm trying to
> > boot a 11/04 from a 8" floppy drive, but DX, DX0, and DX1 all make it hang
> > up (RUN light goes out). Would you know what this would mean? I'm not sure
> > if this question is really appropriate for the list, sicne it's not
> > UNIX-related, and I've had little luck with newsgroups (seems my newsfeed
> > is quite flaky).
> >
> > -- [ Nickolai Zeldovich // nickolai(a)zepa.net ]
>
> I'm punting this to the mailing list ONLY because Nickolai's news access
> is limited. Can someone help him with the problem?
>
> Warren
>
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<Oh yes it does. Mine is running (with RL02s) as I type this...
<
<I wouldn't exactly describe it as "fast", but it's servicable. The syste
<(minus man pages) is on dl0: and user directories on dl1:. The system i
Ok a unique build, is that in the archive?
How about using a RQDX3 and rd52 or rd53 as its a bit more room than a
single RL?
<built for a "small machine", which makes a difference to the memory manag
<(no separate I&D spaces), and things like f77 and troff aren't there (nro
F77 is no loss but CC, vi and nroff are a must. Speed is not required.
<> suggest a way to get the images on to the RL02 using RT-11 I'm interest
<> I can kermit the files from the PC so that step is not a problem.
<
<Kermit-11 should do that for you, but watch the bad blocks.
Kermit would be running under RT-11 the all I'd be doing is copying a
tar.z file over or make the detar'd files over to files under rt-11
structures. I need more on genning a bootable image from RT-11.
While I'm comfortable in a lot of systems unix generally is not one
save for user level activity.
The only unix I have running currently is xenix on pro350 and linix
on PC. I can't say how useful either would be to this project.
Allison
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>From Stacy Minkin <stacy(a)asia.uznet.net> Thu Mar 5 17:59:48 1998
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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:59:48 +0500
From: Stacy Minkin <stacy(a)asia.uznet.net>
Message-Id: <199803050759.MAA00282(a)harrier.asiasys.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Hardware guru needed!
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
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Hi dear PUPS!
It is about one week gone from the mome I got
sufficiently powerful PDP-11. Before this I ran LSI-11/02 under RT-11
and couldn't think about unix. Those new machine is the
main reason for joining to this list for me.
It includes: KDF-11 CPU, RQDX3, DHQ11 8 line async option,
TQK70 tape controller, 1.5Mbyte of memory etc. etc.
I also have the complete BSD2.9 source distribution
in tar file and like to run all of the above.
Currently I've started KDF11 and it seems to be ok.
Problems are: It has lots of switches (the same for MSV-11 boards and
RQDX3 and all of that) and have very little docs about
how to set it correctly. When I tried to bring up the KDF with memory
at once KDF said : no memory :-] but it runs ok with
little 32K memory board from LSI-11/2 ! Seems to me that my MSV-11 boards
have wrong starting address settings or something...
Same story with RQDX3 - currently I have no RDx disks so I thought
that boot my system from RX50 is not a bad idea... I've plugged
standard 5 inch floppy to RQDX3 sig. dist. connector labeled "RX50"
and fired up the machine. Got nothing. I tried to investigate
what happens to bootstrap. I've detected that during init of
mscp controller it successfully undergoes steps 1 and 2 ( or maybe even 3)
but in next step it returns 0 in SA and bootstrap waits for eternity
when controller will enter next step... Looks like hardware fault, ha?
Then I tried to check my TQK70 board. It had nothing connected to it,
and I traced it's initialization sequence the same way. IT ALSO RETURNS ZERO
in 3rd or 4th init step!. Can anyone help with the above?
Sincerely yours - Stacy.
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<The v7 comes on either rk05 or rl02 images.
<Earlier editions didn't know about rl02s.
Exactly my understanding and V7 doesn't run on pdp-11/23s though it is
runable on 11/73.
My interest if to have one of the many PDP-11 Qbus machines I have
running a nonDEC OS such as unix. The 11/23s would be a favored target
as I have a few of them but, devices compatable with binary versions
are not available to me.
I'll look at the archive for the RL02 images. IF there is anyone that can
suggest a way to get the images on to the RL02 using RT-11 I'm interested.
I can kermit the files from the PC so that step is not a problem.
<> Save for the rk05 image does not match my hardware (no rk05). Also sin
<> they are disk images the target disk would have to have the same bad bl
<> map or all havoc happens.
<
<Yup. These images were designed for emulators.
Understood, not much interest to me. Running a PDP-11 sim with two of
them behind me doesn't really do it for me. Running unix on a sim under
dos on a PC exceeds my grasp of reality. I'm the sort if I wanted unix
on the PC I'd install *BSD for 386/486 and skip the simulation. I think
Bob S. and friends did some great work though.
Allison
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< have a single 'master' source system and build and distribute from
< that).
For me that would be perfectly useless as the only PDP-11 compuler is the
DECUS-C and ti's far to minimal to crunch that. Chicken and egg. Right
now I need the chicken on my 11/73 before I can consider the sources
and then I have to configure enough storage to hold them.
< that everyone would be dancing with joy at being freed from binary
< only releases.
I sorta am but for me $100 might as well be $10,000.
<
< As has been mentioned before there are binary only V6, V7, and V5
< images already available without requiring a source license at
Their problem is from what I can tell is they are not runable on my
11/73 with the hardware I have. There is that little problem of
transfering them (via RT-11?).
My config, call it a sanity test to see if there is an existant binary I
can run:
11/73 1mb non-pmi ram
DLV11j
RQDX3 rx33, rx52(x2) (rx53 available)
RX02
RLV12 and one RL02
TK50
I can swap a DHV-11 for the DLV11j.
I can put in 1 more meg of non-pmi ram.
The TK50 is shared with a VAX.
RT-11 V5 running.
There are no RKxxs available.
I expect I'll never be able to network the 11s I have, nor will I have
adaquate resources (Disk) to compile the kernel. I will not discuss the
11/23 or the pro350 sitting next to them as it's been implied they could
only run the oldest versions due to lack of I&D space.
Allison
< I've just created a SMALL mailing list for those people who have
<volunteered to write CD-ROMs, cut tapes etc. so we can distribute the
<software covered by the up-coming SCO source license.
Query:
The license is more concerned with source level code. What about those of
us that are interested in binaries only configured for a working system?
Allison
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Mar 4 08:36:47 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803032236.JAA17613(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Binary-only PDP UNIX
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:36:47 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <199803032232.AA27033(a)world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Mar 3, 98 05:32:54 pm"
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In article by Allison J Parent:
> < I've just created a SMALL mailing list for those people who have
> <volunteered to write CD-ROMs, cut tapes etc. so we can distribute the
> <software covered by the up-coming SCO source license.
>
> The license is more concerned with source level code. What about those of
> us that are interested in binaries only configured for a working system?
You can pick up binaries for 5th, 6th and 7th Edition UNIX for free,
as they are already covered by a SCO license. See
http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/Licenses/v7_bin_license.txt
If you also look at the PUPS Home Page
http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS
you can pick up RK05 disk images for all three edition, as part of
Bob Supnik's PDP-11 emulator.
Warren
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>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Wed Mar 4 10:54:01 1998
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9803040054.AA29624(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: Some PDP11 Q..
To: jorgen.pehrson(a)seinf.MAIL.ABB.com
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:54:01 -0800 (PST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
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> I was given an PDP-11/84 but I have no idea what OS it has installed.
> ...
> And another thing. This machine had a Wangtek 5150EQ tape streamer. If I
> ...
> There're some (bad quality) pictures of the board at
> http://spektr.ludvika.se/museum/pics/pdp11-board1.jpg
I finally got a chance to look at the picture; the board looks to me like
an MTI MSV22, which is a Q-bus board. There's no way that it's a Unibus
board. Are you sure you've got an 11/84 there, and not a 11/83?
Tim.
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Mar 4 11:17:18 1998
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From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199803040117.RAA13880(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: PUPS Volunteers list
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> From: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
> Query:
>
> The license is more concerned with source level code. What about those of
> us that are interested in binaries only configured for a working system?
If you don't plan on staying current with parts that change then
a binary only system might work. I can't see myself volunteering
to build binaries (especially kernels) for varying configurations.
The older, 'static' or frozen (for now), distributions can be run
binary only - but the traditional method of updating systems was
to either distribute diffs or replacement source modules.
One main reason for this, especially in the kernel (but also some
applications level stuff), is that the address space of a PDP-11 does
not allow the luxury of including all ways of doing something. For
example: the C library has to be build for either 'hosts' file or
resolver routines - can't do both. So someone's running a binary
only release but with a hosts file orientation. THey want updated
binaries but all my systems are resolver based - building new binaries
would be painful and time consuming. What happens when a system
include file changes and all (or many) of the binaries in the system
are affected - who's going to volunteer to recompile the system and
make a new CD for the folks who don't want to maintain current sources?
In the kernel arena it's even worse - who ever builds a kernel would
have to request a 'config' file (do you want 'quotas' or not, do you
want 'networking' and if so which ethernet card, do you want 1 or 2
MSCP controllers, and so on. Ick.) and custom build a kernel (can't
include _all_ possible devices, etc because it just won't fit). I
don't know about any one else but I'd rather not get into the
providing custom kernels and binaries.
From V5 on (I can't speak for earlier) you were expected to have a
source license (which thanks to SCO's help we now will have) and
install/maintain the system from those. Binary only setups were
extremely uncommon (except in shops with lots of machines and they'd
have a single 'master' source system and build and distribute from
that).
Configurability is very limited without sources and I'd have thought
that everyone would be dancing with joy at being freed from binary
only releases.
As has been mentioned before there are binary only V6, V7, and V5
images already available without requiring a source license at all.
There's no need to pay the minimal $100 for the upcoming license if
all that's desired is a binary only system that's preconfigured for
a limited set of devices. (re)configuration takes sources.
So I guess the question is who's volunteering to build and distribute
the binary only kits? Not me ;-)
Steven Schultz
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Wed Mar 4 15:37:06 1998
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To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Cc: PDP UNIX Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: PUPS Volunteers list
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On Tue, 3 March 1998 at 17:17:18 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
>> From: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
>> Query:
>>
>> The license is more concerned with source level code. What about those of
>> us that are interested in binaries only configured for a working system?
>
> If you don't plan on staying current with parts that change then
> a binary only system might work. I can't see myself volunteering
> to build binaries (especially kernels) for varying configurations.
>
> (omitting detailled explanation)
>
> I
> don't know about any one else but I'd rather not get into the
> providing custom kernels and binaries.
All good reasons. I suppose I could give access to an emulator over
the net if anybody wants to do it themselves. This is not the way to
go if you have your own machine with enough storage, but it might be
if you're low on storage.
> As has been mentioned before there are binary only V6, V7, and V5
> images already available without requiring a source license at
> all.
JOOI, where are these?
Greg
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Hi,
I was given an PDP-11/84 but I have no idea what OS it has installed.
It says this when it starts up:
Testing in progress - Please wait
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
starting system
.
__: ADA1: Load resident files
A.DU0: BOOT from @ 526 fp ch Memory size 2048kBytes v06.12.413
VISONIK
Building supervisory and managment system
Landis & Gyr, Building Control
__: INI0: Start of RSYS !
__:SU03: Update Common from SYSL !
__: SIX2: Dataset IM: Rebuild Index
__: SIX2: Dataset REA: Rebuild Index
__: SIX2: Dataset DM: Rebuild Index
__: MELD: Init STA-Pointer 43252
__: MELD: Init ZMS-Pointer 10774
It has controlled the ventilation system on a hospital of that can be of
any help.
Anyone knows what OS this could be?
And another thing. This machine had a Wangtek 5150EQ tape streamer. If I
look
at the cables it seems to be SCSI. And the controller for the streamer is
not manufactured
by DEC. (There's no DEC logo on it at least.)
It says B 01079 ISS.4 1984 CTS-11 CKK 3890 on the board. Is this a SCSI
controller board?
Can I connect SCSI disks to it or is it a streamer only interface?
There're some (bad quality) pictures of the board at
http://spektr.ludvika.se/museum/pics/pdp11-board1.jpg
There's a switch on the front of the CPU box that says "AUX ON | OFF". And
on the back of
the PSU there's a switch that says "remote | off | local". What function do
they have?
Thanks!
--
Jorgen Pehrson
jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se
http://spektr.ludvika.se/museum
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>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Tue Mar 3 02:48:04 1998
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9803021648.AA23582(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: Some PDP11 Q..
To: jorgen.pehrson(a)seinf.mail.ABB.com
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:48:04 -0800 (PST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <412565BB.0036DA5F.00(a)notestest.mail.abb.com> from "jorgen.pehrson(a)seinf.mail.abb.com" at Mar 2, 98 11:30:40 am
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> I was given an PDP-11/84 but I have no idea what OS it has installed.
> __: ADA1: Load resident files
> A.DU0: BOOT from @ 526 fp ch Memory size 2048kBytes v06.12.413
> __: INI0: Start of RSYS !
> __:SU03: Update Common from SYSL !
It looks like a version of RSTS/E to me (but that's mainly because I
know it isn't RT-11 or RSX-11...)
> And another thing. This machine had a Wangtek 5150EQ tape streamer. If I
> look
> at the cables it seems to be SCSI. And the controller for the streamer is
> not manufactured
> by DEC. (There's no DEC logo on it at least.)
> It says B 01079 ISS.4 1984 CTS-11 CKK 3890 on the board. Is this a SCSI
> controller board?
It's almost certainly a QIC-02 controller, probably doing TS11 emulation.
The sure way to test if its doing TS11 emulation or not is to drop into
console ODT and see if there's something living at the TS11 CSRs at
17772520.
> There's a switch on the front of the CPU box that says "AUX ON | OFF". And
> on the back of
> the PSU there's a switch that says "remote | off | local". What function do
> they have?
These control the 3-wire DEC power controller bus.
Warren may want to correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't non-Unix issues
like these best taken to forums such as vmsnet.pdp-11 and comp.os.rsts ?
Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Mar 3 09:28:19 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803022328.KAA08076(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Full Steam Ahead with License
To: dionj(a)sco.COM (Dion Johnson)
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:28:19 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <19980302152605.46176(a)sco.com> from Dion Johnson at "Mar 2, 98 03:26:05 pm"
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In article by Dion Johnson:
> I am going to give myself the go-ahead and not bother those busy
> legal folks any more.
Goodo.
> It looks like we may be able to permit credit cards and Intl Money Orders.
> Are VISA and AMEX enough cards to support? I should know pretty soon on this.
I suspect that would be fine.
> > Someone asked if a password-protected ftp site would be ok?
> > I thought that it might contravene the license. What's your opinion?
>
> As long as you know WHO has the password, that would be in accordance
> with the license, as I read it.
> -Dion
That's excellent news, Dion. I'll cc this to the PUPS mailing list.
Thanks again,
Warren
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Mar 3 11:54:30 1998
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From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: Dion Johnson <dionj(a)sco.COM>
Cc: PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Full Steam Ahead with License
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On Tue, 3 March 1998 at 10:28:19 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by Dion Johnson:
>> I am going to give myself the go-ahead and not bother those busy
>> legal folks any more.
>
> Goodo.
Great news!
>> It looks like we may be able to permit credit cards and Intl Money Orders.
>> Are VISA and AMEX enough cards to support? I should know pretty soon on this.
>
> I suspect that would be fine.
I would think that you should add MasterCard to that list, possibly
instead of Amexco.
Where do we go from here? Can we start to bombard you with
license applications?
Greg
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Mar 3 12:13:33 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803030213.NAA08617(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Full Steam Ahead with License
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:13:33 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <19980303122430.47237(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Mar 3, 98 12:24:30 pm"
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In article by Greg Lehey:
> >> It looks like we may be able to permit credit cards and Intl Money Orders.
>
> I would think that you should add MasterCard to that list, possibly
> instead of Amexco.
>
> Where do we go from here? Can we start to bombard [Dion] with
> license applications?
> Greg
Dion sent me this suggestion:
So I guess what we have is this:
1. Prospective licensee gets the license from [PUPS] website.
2. He signs and sends to SCO and sends his $100 to SF PO box.
3. Someone here [at SCO] lets [PUPS] know that he is a licensee.
4. [PUPS] can send him the source code (and charge a fee for that
as you see fit).
SCO wants the license on paper. I asked him for the final license in a
form suitable for printing, e.g PostScript, PDF, Word format (gasp!).
Greg's suggestion about MasterCard went to Dion as well. I guess we just
have to sit back & wait until we get the word (and the final license)
from Dion.
As soon as I have all the details, there will be a description of the
steps you need to perform in order to get a license placed on the PUPS
home page.
Cheers all,
Warren
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>From Neil Johnson <neil(a)skatter.usask.ca> Wed Mar 4 02:32:06 1998
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From: Neil Johnson <neil(a)skatter.usask.ca>
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Subject: Re: Full Steam Ahead with License
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Another suggestion - keep a list of the licencees on the PUPS website. That
way everyone would know who they could exchange software with. Most new
stuff would probably end up on the site anyway, but during development
it might be good to know.
Neil
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>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Wed Mar 4 03:08:37 1998
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9803031708.AA24509(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: Full Steam Ahead with License
To: neil(a)skatter.usask.ca (Neil Johnson)
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:08:37 -0800 (PST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, wkt(a)CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
In-Reply-To: <199803031632.KAA00644(a)hydrus.USask.Ca> from "Neil Johnson" at Mar 3, 98 10:32:06 am
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> Another suggestion - keep a list of the licencees on the PUPS website. That
> way everyone would know who they could exchange software with. Most new
> stuff would probably end up on the site anyway, but during development
> it might be good to know.
As most all of the "new stuff" lately seems to be 2.11BSD-related,
this brings up a (probably silly) question of mine: what's the
relationship between the SCO license agreement and 2.9, 2.10, and 2.11BSD?
Will the SCO license be functionally equivalent to a WE/AT&T source
license (other than the per-machine limitations)? In other words,
are the 2BSD distributions "SUCCESSOR OPERATING SYSTEMS" in the language
of the agreement?
Another stupid question: few of us (perhaps I'm the only one) have
CD-ROM readers/writers attached to PDP-11's. Will those who have to
transfer the source kit through a PC-clone or other Unix workstation
have to license the intermediary machines with SCO? In other words,
will the intermediary machines need to be registered as "DESIGNATED
CPU"s?
Tim.
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Mar 4 07:10:42 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803032110.IAA15973(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Full Steam Ahead with License
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:10:42 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <9803031708.AA24509(a)alph02.triumf.ca> from Tim Shoppa at "Mar 3, 98 09:08:37 am"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
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In article by Tim Shoppa:
> > Another suggestion - keep a list of the licencees on the PUPS website. That
> > way everyone would know who they could exchange software with. Most new
> > stuff would probably end up on the site anyway, but during development
> > it might be good to know.
>
> As most all of the "new stuff" lately seems to be 2.11BSD-related,
> this brings up a (probably silly) question of mine: what's the
> relationship between the SCO license agreement and 2.9, 2.10, and 2.11BSD?
> Will the SCO license be functionally equivalent to a WE/AT&T source
> license (other than the per-machine limitations)? In other words,
> are the 2BSD distributions "SUCCESSOR OPERATING SYSTEMS" in the language
> of the agreement?
2BSDs are definitely SUCCESSOR OPERATING SYSTEMS as they are derived from
the listed products (6th, 7th Edition and 32V) and are 16-bit operating
systems.
> Another stupid question: few of us (perhaps I'm the only one) have
> CD-ROM readers/writers attached to PDP-11's. Will those who have to
> transfer the source kit through a PC-clone or other Unix workstation
> have to license the intermediary machines with SCO? In other words,
> will the intermediary machines need to be registered as "DESIGNATED
> CPU"s?
My interpretation is this:
DESIGNATED CPU means all CPUs licensed as such for a specific
SOURCE CODE PRODUCT.
SCO grants to LICENSEE a personal, nontransferable and
nonexclusive right to use, in the AUTHORIZED COUNTRY, each SOURCE
CODE PRODUCT identified in Section 3 of this Agreement, solely
for personal use [..] and solely on or in conjunction with
DESIGNATED CPUs [...]. Such right to use includes the right to
modify such SOURCE CODE PRODUCT and to prepare DERIVED BINARY PRODUCT
based on such SOURCE CODE PRODUCT,
In my opinion, you can't USE the source code unless you have a CPU which
run the machine code which is produced by the source code. I can't prepare
a DERIVED BINARY PRODUCT if I don't have a PDP-11 or an emulator of such.
I'd better check with Dion.
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Mar 4 07:16:37 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803032116.IAA16053(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Full Steam Ahead with License
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:16:37 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <199803031632.KAA00644(a)hydrus.USask.Ca> from Neil Johnson at "Mar 3, 98 10:32:06 am"
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In article by Neil Johnson:
> Another suggestion - keep a list of the licencees on the PUPS website. That
> way everyone would know who they could exchange software with. Most new
> stuff would probably end up on the site anyway, but during development
> it might be good to know.
This is a good idea, but I'd be happy for a licencee to opt out from the
list if they so desired.
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Mar 4 07:49:10 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803032149.IAA17305(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: PUPS Volunteers list
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:49:10 +1100 (EST)
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All,
I've just created a SMALL mailing list for those people who have
volunteered to write CD-ROMs, cut tapes etc. so we can distribute the
software covered by the up-coming SCO source license.
If you had volunteered but didn't receive any email about it today, please
mail me back as I've missed you somehow.
Still waiting on Dion re the final license document and the questions
regarding Mastercard and `intermediate' CPUs.
Cheers all,
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Mar 4 08:21:10 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803032221.JAA17553(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: From Dion: intermediate CPUs
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:21:10 +1100 (EST)
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----- Forwarded message from Dion Johnson -----
> > Will those who have to
> > transfer the source kit through a PC-clone or other Unix workstation
> > have to license the intermediary machines with SCO? In other words,
> > will the intermediary machines need to be registered as "DESIGNATED
> > CPU"s?
>
> I hope not!
> Warren
Right, that makes no sense at all. I suspect we (you and I) will
want to whip up a sort of cover letter for the license that
explains how to fill out the form and, as experience accumulates,
a FAQ, etc.
-Dion
----- End of forwarded message from Dion Johnson -----
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> > Steven was expecting to see a substantial hit due to the ZIP's access time,
>
> Quite so. Especially on the 'find' which is almost pure 'seek'
> operations.
>
> Wasn't there mention somewhere of a 200mb Zip? I know there's the
> 2gb Jaz drive now but haven't heard anymore about a larger Zip. On
> the other hand there is the Syquest product line - they've a 135mb
> "zip like" (but not compatible) drive.
I don't know anything about larger Zip drives but Syquest makes the
EZFlyer 230MB which is compatible with the EZFlyer 135. I got one for
Christmas and love it. I _believe_ it's a bit faster than the Zip.
The EZFlyer data sheet is at http://www.syquest.com/products/d_ezflyer.html
in case anybody is interested.
- Jim
--
James E. Carpenter E-Mail: jimc(a)zach1.tiac.net
6 Munroe Drive
Plainville, MA 02762-1108 ICBM: 42 00' 15"N 71 20' 00"W
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Mar 2 07:47:07 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803012147.IAA01813(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: PDP UNIX and CD-ROMs
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:47:07 +1100 (EST)
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All,
re the question `Are CD-ROMs the best method of distributing the
PUPS archive of PDP-11 UNIX material'? The answer is: it's a good method, for
the following reasons:
+ you can't easily write over the CD-ROM
+ impervious to magnetic fields
+ the PUPS archive is always going to be changing, as I find and
add new stuff to it.
+ the SCO license enforces that I get written permission before I
pass anything to a third party. Taking this in a conservative
fashion, this might rule out a password-protected ftp archive.
However, I'll check with Dion at SCO on this.
+ we can only charge fees for copying and distribution, and cannot
make money on the CD-ROMs
Therefore, treat the archive CD-ROM like you would the FreeBSD or Linux
distributions on CD-ROM: they will go out of date, but you can purchase
new versions of the CD-ROM, and they should be relatively inexpensive.
Ok, so CD-ROMs are not the _best_ method of distributing the archive, but
they are a _good_ way of doing so.
Ciao,
Warren
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Mar 2 08:09:25 1998
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From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: PDP UNIX and CD-ROMs
References: <199803012147.IAA01813(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
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On Mon, 2 March 1998 at 8:47:07 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote:
> All,
> re the question `Are CD-ROMs the best method of distributing the
> PUPS archive of PDP-11 UNIX material'? The answer is: it's a good method, for
> the following reasons:
>
> + you can't easily write over the CD-ROM
> + impervious to magnetic fields
> + the PUPS archive is always going to be changing, as I find and
> add new stuff to it.
> + the SCO license enforces that I get written permission before I
> pass anything to a third party. Taking this in a conservative
> fashion, this might rule out a password-protected ftp archive.
> However, I'll check with Dion at SCO on this.
> + we can only charge fees for copying and distribution, and cannot
> make money on the CD-ROMs
>
> Therefore, treat the archive CD-ROM like you would the FreeBSD or Linux
> distributions on CD-ROM: they will go out of date, but you can purchase
> new versions of the CD-ROM, and they should be relatively inexpensive.
I still miss the distinction between CD-ROMs and WORMs. CD-ROMs are
relatively expensive in small quantities, not just because of the
setup costs, but also because of the wastage involved. WORMs
(writeable CD-ROMs) are probably a better choice for the anticipated
volume.
Greg
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Mar 2 08:29:23 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803012229.JAA01996(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: PDP UNIX and CD-ROMs
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:29:23 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <19980302083925.10323(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Mar 2, 98 08:39:25 am"
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In article by Greg Lehey:
> On Mon, 2 March 1998 at 8:47:07 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote:
> > All,
> > re the question `Are CD-ROMs the best method of distributing the
> > PUPS archive of PDP-11 UNIX material'? The answer is: it's a good method,
> > for the following reasons:
> I still miss the distinction between CD-ROMs and WORMs. CD-ROMs are
> relatively expensive in small quantities, not just because of the
> setup costs, but also because of the wastage involved. WORMs
> (writeable CD-ROMs) are probably a better choice for the anticipated
> volume.
> Greg
Sorry, my fault. I use CD-ROM to mean anything which can be read in a CD-ROM
drive. That obviously includes CD-W, which is what I really mean here.
Ciao,
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Mar 2 08:38:33 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803012238.JAA02051(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: PDP UNIX and CD-ROMs
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:38:33 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <199803012228.OAA27094(a)rainbow.Corp.Sun.COM> from Chris Drake at "Mar 1, 98 02:28:21 pm"
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In article by Chris Drake:
> >Ok, so CD-ROMs are not the _best_ method of distributing the archive, but
> >they are a _good_ way of doing so.
>
> Sounds good to me... Just out of curiosity, got any idea how many people are
> on this list and/or might want a CD? I may have a limited ability to cut
> some at work, but not if we're talking lots.
I'd say at least 100 initially, and at least 300 in the first 12 months.
I'm trying to organise a bunch of people who can burn CDs, to keep the
individual workload down.
I'll be creating a Rock Ridge image using mkisofs from the archive here.
People who are prepared to burn CDs can either download the image, or the
entire archive. For the latter, I'll include a makefile to build the CD image.
Oviously, people who do mirror the archive:
+ will be asked to burn CDs, and will do so,
+ must be covered by a license. I will need either a signed
letter (on paper) describing the license, or a PGP-signed
email describing the license, before I can give access to
the archive.
Does this sound reasonable, everyone?
Warren
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Mar 2 10:17:01 1998
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From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: PDP UNIX and CD-ROMs
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On Mon, 2 March 1998 at 9:38:33 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by Chris Drake:
>>> Ok, so CD-ROMs are not the _best_ method of distributing the archive, but
>>> they are a _good_ way of doing so.
>>
>> Sounds good to me... Just out of curiosity, got any idea how many people are
>> on this list and/or might want a CD? I may have a limited ability to cut
>> some at work, but not if we're talking lots.
>
> I'd say at least 100 initially, and at least 300 in the first 12 months.
> I'm trying to organise a bunch of people who can burn CDs, to keep the
> individual workload down.
>
> I'll be creating a Rock Ridge image using mkisofs from the archive here.
> People who are prepared to burn CDs can either download the image, or the
> entire archive. For the latter, I'll include a makefile to build the CD image.
>
> Oviously, people who do mirror the archive:
>
> + will be asked to burn CDs, and will do so,
As I mentioned before, I can cut tapes, but not burn CDs. I think
this is still a valuable service.
> + must be covered by a license. I will need either a signed
> letter (on paper) describing the license, or a PGP-signed
> email describing the license, before I can give access to
> the archive.
Right. Any further news about when this could happen?
> Does this sound reasonable, everyone?
Modulo my point above, yes.
Greg
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Mar 2 10:25:00 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803020025.LAA06066(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: PDP UNIX and CD-ROMs
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:25:00 +1100 (EST)
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Greg writes:
>> Oviously, people who do mirror the archive:
>> will be asked to burn CDs, and will do so,
>>
> As I mentioned before, I can cut tapes, but not burn CDs. I think
> this is still a valuable service.
Apologies again, Greg. Yes cutting tapes will also be valuable,
esp. for people who have a PDP-11.
> Right. Any further news about when this could happen?
No, I'm waiting on feedback from Dion. He did say he had started the
process of making it a product, but I don't have an ETA for it at the
moment.
Many thanks again for volunteering!!
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Mar 2 11:41:16 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803020141.MAA06698(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Part of PUPS Archive via FTP
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:41:16 +1100 (EST)
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All,
To show you what I'm thinking of for the CD-ROM version of the
PUPS archive, I've put the unlicensed parts up for anonymous ftp at:
ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/pub/PDP-11/PUPS_Archive/
I've kept the directory structure intact, but you won't find any files
that require a source license. I'd appreciate any comments. Note that
there's a directory called Trees missing. It will contain `exploded'
trees for v6, v7 and 2.11BSD.
The Lists directory is interesting: it contains tar vtf listings of all
tarballs in the archive, with added checksums so you can determine identical
files in multiple tarballs.
This is all rough cut at the moment, so don't treat anything as unchangeable.
Warren
<uq0 at uda0 csr 172150 vec 774 ipl 17
<vvv****The RL02 driver!***vvv
<hl0 at uba0 csr 174400 didn't interrupt
<hl0 at uba0 csr 174400 didn't interrupt
<^^^***(Observe! Twice! The darn thing at least pretends to try..)***^^^
<klesiu0 at uba0
That suggests the interrupt grant chain was not intact. Look to see if
one of the slots needs a grant card. Watch out as a few cards DO NOT
pass grant!
<Any clue anybody? (I know that this is tedious for you all but it is for
<a good cause, okay? )
I understand why you would use rl02 they are handy. I have no experience
with them in unix context only Qbus VAX (under VMS) and PDP-11s under
rt-11/rsts/rsx-11 so I can't comment on software setup.
Allison
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>From J Lothian <jlothian(a)holyrood.ed.ac.uk> Sun Mar 1 02:18:57 1998
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From: J Lothian <jlothian(a)holyrood.ed.ac.uk>
Subject: RL02 meets BSD
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
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I've had an RL02 working on an 11/750 running
BSD4.3. The RL11 controller only has 16 words of
buffer memory, so you've got to make sure that other
devices don't hog the bus too much. In particular,
UDAs should have their DMA burst set to something like 1.
Setting it much higher causes the RL11 to get data lates
as its silo overflows before it gets access to the bus
to do DMA. However, the RLV12 seems to have a much bigger
silo (256 bytes?), so this should't be a problem for it.
The only other things I can think of are bus grant problems
&c. If you're using an RQDX3 in the same machine, bear in mind
that it doesn't pass the grants, and so should be the last
device on the bus.
James
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>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Sun Mar 1 03:58:27 1998
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9802281758.AA14586(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: RL02 meets BSD
To: jlothian(a)holyrood.ed.AC.UK (J Lothian)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 09:58:27 -0800 (PST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199802281618.QAA20434(a)holyrood.ed.ac.uk> from "J Lothian" at Feb 28, 98 04:18:57 pm
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> The only other things I can think of are bus grant problems
> &c.
This certainly seems likely to me, too. What cards are in the
machine, and in which slots? What are the switches on the RLV12
set to?
> If you're using an RQDX3 in the same machine, bear in mind
> that it doesn't pass the grants, and so should be the last
> device on the bus.
I think you're thinking of the RQDX1/2 here.
Tim.
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>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Sun Mar 1 14:45:51 1998
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
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Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 20:45:51 -0800 (PST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199802280443.UAA00780(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at Feb 27, 98 08:43:41 pm
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> > Incidentally, a couple of weeks ago I made a nice bootable Iomega ZIP
> > cartridge with the current 2.11 generic kernel and everything in /usr. It all
> > barely fits in the 100 Mbytes (well, 3*65536*512 bytes) available, and
>
> How "speedy" is a ZIP drive?
In case anyone is interested in the benchmarks, here's a short summary:
Both a Webster ESDC (1 Megabyte cache, Hitachi DK512-12 ESDI drive) and
an Andromeda SCDC (2 Mbyte cache connected to many SCSI devices, including an
"internal" SCSI ZIP) are present on my main development machine, a 11/73
(KDJ11-B) with 2 Mbytes of non-PMI memory. Caching on both controllers
was enabled and two benchmarks were done with each disk subsystem. Times
reported below are "wall times". All of this is done under the latest
release of 2.11BSD using a non-networking system and no other work
being done on the system.
1. "make sendmail" took 1159.4 seconds on the WQESD+Hitachi, and 1165.3
seconds on the SCDC+ZIP.
2. "find /usr -print > /dev/null" took 166.4 seconds on the WQESD+Hitachi
and 165.0 seconds on the SCDC+ZIP.
It looks like, for most purposes, the ZIP on a good SCSI host adapter is
just as good as an ESDI drive on a good ESDI controller. I think
Steven was expecting to see a substantial hit due to the ZIP's access time,
but I think that the buffering in the host adapter and in the ZIP drive
itself makes this a minor concern.
Tim.
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>From Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> Sun Mar 1 18:02:45 1998
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From: Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se>
To: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: That RL02 blues
In-Reply-To: <199802281508.AA24580(a)world.std.com>
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Grant chain was intact on both machines.
On the second machine the MSCP device was placed below the RLV12 and the
RA disk worked fine!
/Lars
On Sat, 28 Feb 1998, Allison J Parent wrote:
>
> <uq0 at uda0 csr 172150 vec 774 ipl 17
> <vvv****The RL02 driver!***vvv
> <hl0 at uba0 csr 174400 didn't interrupt
> <hl0 at uba0 csr 174400 didn't interrupt
> <^^^***(Observe! Twice! The darn thing at least pretends to try..)***^^^
> <klesiu0 at uba0
>
>
> That suggests the interrupt grant chain was not intact. Look to see if
> one of the slots needs a grant card. Watch out as a few cards DO NOT
> pass grant!
>
> <Any clue anybody? (I know that this is tedious for you all but it is for
> <a good cause, okay? )
>
> I understand why you would use rl02 they are handy. I have no experience
> with them in unix context only Qbus VAX (under VMS) and PDP-11s under
> rt-11/rsts/rsx-11 so I can't comment on software setup.
>
> Allison
>
>
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>From Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> Sun Mar 1 18:06:26 1998
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From: Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se>
To: J Lothian <jlothian(a)holyrood.ed.ac.uk>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: RL02 meets BSD
In-Reply-To: <199802281618.QAA20434(a)holyrood.ed.ac.uk>
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Both systems have "pirate" drive controllers and they have cards
that do pass grant signals.
If I do not remember wrongly, I think that only RQDX-1 had the
"feature" of not passing the grant chain.
But we placed all RQDX controller at the bottom anyhow even
though they worked further up.
THis is of academical interest only since I do not have holes
in the grant chain and do not have an RQDX controllers AND
I have devices below the drive controller in the first case
that do work!
/Lars
On Sat, 28 Feb 1998, J Lothian wrote:
> I've had an RL02 working on an 11/750 running
> BSD4.3. The RL11 controller only has 16 words of
> buffer memory, so you've got to make sure that other
> devices don't hog the bus too much. In particular,
> UDAs should have their DMA burst set to something like 1.
> Setting it much higher causes the RL11 to get data lates
> as its silo overflows before it gets access to the bus
> to do DMA. However, the RLV12 seems to have a much bigger
> silo (256 bytes?), so this should't be a problem for it.
>
> The only other things I can think of are bus grant problems
> &c. If you're using an RQDX3 in the same machine, bear in mind
> that it doesn't pass the grants, and so should be the last
> device on the bus.
>
> James
>
>
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>From Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> Sun Mar 1 18:37:58 1998
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From: Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se>
To: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
cc: J Lothian <jlothian(a)holyrood.ed.AC.UK>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: RL02 meets BSD
In-Reply-To: <9802281758.AA14586(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
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For various reasons I can not give you the hardware config of the
first system (Okay okay! I DO not want to crawl back in behind it
under all the cabling and short out the house again because I did
something aggravating to the power outlet in the process the last time
I was in there) but the only thing I did to that one was to add the RLV12 at
the bottom. The system worked before with all devices and did so afterwards
too except for the RLV-controller.
The second system looks like this:
A B C D
1 CPU-----CPU-----CPU-----CPU
2 MEM-----MEM-----MEM-----MEM
3 RLV12---RLV12---RLV12---RLV12
4 TKQ50---TKQ50 DQNA----DQNA
5 SI------SI------SI------SI
GLUED BACKPLANE FROM HERE AND DOWN
(this used to be a VAX-station II.
Remember them and cringe!)
SI is a quad ESDI controller for one or two external drives from System
Industries.
On the other system I have a dual SI controller for RA81 clones (Eagle).
There I DO have an RQDX-3 above the RLV12 but not so here.
Grant chain on the uVAX bus looks like this:
1AB-2AB-3AB-4AB-4CD-5CD-5AB(and so on).
The first three slots are "granted" only in the AB pair.
The RLV12 does work with grants only on the AB pair however.
It works fine in my three button 9 slot 22 bit backplane (classical
PDP11 vintage rack mount cab) and there the grant chain goes ONLY
on the AB side stright down (BA11-N and H9273).
So, no, I do not think we have a grant problem.
However, does the RLV12 handle drive interrupt like the RL11 does?
It could be that ULTRIX only supports the UNIBUS controller and
not the Qbus.. And if so, is there a fix for this out there?
And if not, how do I get hold of enough NetBSD to get a uVAX up
enough to have the config above, being able to network and being able
to reach both the SI controller and the RLV12?
Come to think of it, most of the no nonsense hard hat industry type
PDP11's I've seen (and especially the OEM-ed ones) got some sort
of winchester emulating one or several RL02s. Often combined with some
sort of QIC-type tape recorder with secret density.
To get ANYTHING on those rigs, I think you HAVE to do it the dd way
after having moved the controller to a bigger system....
Amazing how things can turn...
I used to spend a lot of time in trying to get away from the 16 bit
operating systems into the wonderful world of 32 bit. Now I am struggling
even harder to get back in there again. =)
Fun is not always bigger, faster better!
/Lars
On Sat, 28 Feb 1998, Tim Shoppa wrote:
> > The only other things I can think of are bus grant problems
> > &c.
>
> This certainly seems likely to me, too. What cards are in the
> machine, and in which slots? What are the switches on the RLV12
> set to?
>
> > If you're using an RQDX3 in the same machine, bear in mind
> > that it doesn't pass the grants, and so should be the last
> > device on the bus.
>
> I think you're thinking of the RQDX1/2 here.
>
> Tim.
>
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>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Mon Mar 2 04:57:46 1998
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9803011857.AA28081(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: RL02 meets BSD
To: beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se (Beastly Wolf)
Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 10:57:46 -0800 (PST)
Cc: jlothian(a)holyrood.ed.AC.UK, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980301090940.20308C-100000(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> from "Beastly Wolf" at Mar 1, 98 09:37:58 am
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> The second system looks like this:
> A B C D
> 1 CPU-----CPU-----CPU-----CPU
> 2 MEM-----MEM-----MEM-----MEM
> 3 RLV12---RLV12---RLV12---RLV12
> 4 TKQ50---TKQ50 DQNA----DQNA
> 5 SI------SI------SI------SI
> GLUED BACKPLANE FROM HERE AND DOWN
> (this used to be a VAX-station II.
> Remember them and cringe!)
Ah, the "RC" aka "restricted configuration" aka "resin-coated" backplane.
The BA23 has a special CD-bus in the first three slots. Usually it's
not a problem to put a full-height card in the third slot, below
the CPU and memory, but occasionally there are quad-height
cards which actually pay some attention to stuff going on the CD
side of the bus. Can you try rearranging your cards so that you
have a dual-height card (i.e. the TKQ50 or DEQNA) in slot 3 AB,
you have the 3 CD empty, and the RLV12 in slot 4? This involves you
giving up either your TKQ50 or DEQNA, but I'm hoping that you can
live without one or the other for a little while.
Also, how are the jumpers/DIPswitches set on the RLV12? It's possible
to do some weird things by sticking the RLV12 into 16-bit or 18-bit
mode or by having the VEC set to something used by one of your other
cards. If either of these is the case, regard the fact that the controller
isn't usable as a Good Thing; having a RLV12 in 18-bit mode splatter
data all around low memory isn't fun!
Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mon Mar 2 05:25:54 1998
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Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 11:25:54 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199803011925.LAA08986(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca, sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
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Hi -
> From shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca Sat Feb 28 20:45:54 1998
>
> Both a Webster ESDC (1 Megabyte cache, Hitachi DK512-12 ESDI drive) and
> an Andromeda SCDC (2 Mbyte cache connected to many SCSI devices, including an
I tracked down an address and phone number for Andromeda Systems - they
are real close to me (in fact I drive by them every visit to Fry's ;-))
Andromeda Systems, Inc.
9000 Eton Avenue
Canoga Park, CA 91304
818-709-7600 (voice)
818-709-7407 (FAX)
No mention of a WWW site though. I'd imagine their boards, while
very good, are quite expensive. As much as I'd like a Zip drive
on the 11/93 I can't see spending US$1-2k for a $139 disk drive :-)
> 2. "find /usr -print > /dev/null" took 166.4 seconds on the WQESD+Hitachi
> and 165.0 seconds on the SCDC+ZIP.
WOW. That is quite surprising.
> Steven was expecting to see a substantial hit due to the ZIP's access time,
Quite so. Especially on the 'find' which is almost pure 'seek'
operations.
Wasn't there mention somewhere of a 200mb Zip? I know there's the
2gb Jaz drive now but haven't heard anymore about a larger Zip. On
the other hand there is the Syquest product line - they've a 135mb
"zip like" (but not compatible) drive.
Steven
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>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Mon Mar 2 06:09:46 1998
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
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Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 12:09:46 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <199803011925.LAA08986(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at Mar 1, 98 11:25:54 am
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> > Both a Webster ESDC (1 Megabyte cache, Hitachi DK512-12 ESDI drive) and
> > an Andromeda SCDC (2 Mbyte cache connected to many SCSI devices, including an
> I tracked down an address and phone number for Andromeda Systems - they
> are real close to me (in fact I drive by them every visit to Fry's ;-))
> Andromeda Systems, Inc.
> 9000 Eton Avenue
> Canoga Park, CA 91304
> 818-709-7600 (voice)
> 818-709-7407 (FAX)
>
> No mention of a WWW site though.
Try http://www.andromedasystems.com/
> I'd imagine their boards, while
> very good, are quite expensive. As much as I'd like a Zip drive
> on the 11/93 I can't see spending US$1-2k for a $139 disk drive :-)
Hook up 6 other SCSI devices to the board and you might change your mind!
The SCDC also supports standard 34-pin 5.25" and 3.5" floppies.
> > 2. "find /usr -print > /dev/null" took 166.4 seconds on the WQESD+Hitachi
> > and 165.0 seconds on the SCDC+ZIP.
>
> WOW. That is quite surprising.
>
> > Steven was expecting to see a substantial hit due to the ZIP's access time,
>
> Quite so. Especially on the 'find' which is almost pure 'seek'
> operations.
Actually, the ZIP "in-use" LED wasn't lit during most of the 'find'. I
suspect the Andromeda SCDC cached most of the important inodes quite
early on.
In terms of raw bandwidth to the Q-bus, nothing I've ever seen comes
close to the SCDC. 2 Mbytes/second may not be a whole lot by modern
PCI bus standards, but on the Q-bus it's very impressive.
> Wasn't there mention somewhere of a 200mb Zip?
I've heard mention of it too, but AFAIK it's still vaporware. 100 Mbytes
is, indeed, pretty tight for a 2.11BSD distribution, but it does fit.
Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
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