TUHS

tuhs@tuhs.org

6532 discussions

Re: 4.3BSD Installation (probably off-topic)

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com writes: > I've been looking over the recent 4.3-ish BSD distributions > now available from the PUPS archive. Thought I'd spin off > a copy for booting on one of my spare uVax II's [...] The most important thing here is to choose the right version of BSD. Plain 4.3 CANNOT boot on a MicroVAX II. Later versions, starting with Tahoe, can. The patches provided in 4.3_on_uVax_instructions are nothing more than pieces taken out of Tahoe. If you are going to use those, you might want to use the whole Tahoe system just as well, it has some very nice improvements, such as disk labels, better man mechanism, and MX record support in sendmail. The problem is that we (PUPS/TUHS) haven't been able to find a Tahoe tape with VAX binaries. I'm not sure if CSRG ever bothered to even make one, although it's as simple as executing one script on a running system (which they obviously had). Thus in order to run Tahoe, one would have to cross-compile it first. It's a pain and takes a lot of expertise, so I would strongly advise you to avoid effort duplication and wait until I do it and put the product up in my home directory on minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au. Actually since KA650 is all I have right now and Tahoe doesn't support it (but the support code appears later in the SCCS tree), I'll go directly from Ultrix (my cross-compilation base) to Quasijarus1, my first release, and won't bother with Tahoe. But for all practical purposes Quasijarus1 will be Tahoe plus KA650 support, shadow passwords, and bugfixes. Hmm, maybe your have never heard of Quasijarus Project, so I'll explain briefly what it is. I'm taking over UCB CSRG in terms of shepherding and maintaining pure Berkeley UNIX(R). I will first re-create it by taking their final SCCS tree and building my initial one, deciding piece by piece what belongs to pure Berkeley UNIX(R) and should be kept, and what is POSIX evil spirit or bloat and should be tossed. In general I draw the line right around the Tahoe release (summer of 1988), but I'll include anything from Reno and later code that's worth having, such as KA650 support and Reno's DBM-based shadow password model. Basically, I want to create a system with a classical (pre-Reno) look and feel which at the same time has all the quality improvements and bugfixes ever made by Berkeley, even if they are as late as 4.4BSD. The last classical release is Tahoe, so that's my base. I will be using Tahoe to decide what should be included and what should the look and feel be. Once I know from Tahoe that a given piece should be included, I'll go to the SCCS file(s) for that piece and decide which post- Tahoe deltas should be kept (because they are bugfixes or quality improvements) and which deltas should be tossed (because they introduce the evil spirit of POSIX or bloat). How soon will this happen? I'm all ready to go, but unfortunately hardware problems are holding me back. I have solved the KA650 problem I was having, but now I'm stuck because neither of the two TQK50 boards I have works. (The drive SEEMS to work, though.) Thus the sooner I find a working TQK50 board (or, alternatively, a working TK70/TQK70 pair), the sooner will I make 4.3BSD-Quasijarus1. > If there's a more appropriate forum for these questions, I'd > appreciate being redirected to them! Right now there isn't, because my main VAX farm is currently off the net. When I get it back on the net (no time estimate, at least several more months), I'll set up a set of mailing lists for Quasijarus Project and Berkeley VAX UNIX in general. > OK, Before Step I, as doucmented in 4.3_on_uVax_instructions, is: Totally disregard these instructions, they are for plain 4.3 ONLY. If you are using Tahoe or Quasijarus1, the distribution already supports MicroVAXen as shipped. If you don't want to use Tahoe or Quasijarus1 and want to use plain 4.3, you are on your own. > Is this an actual limitation on the 43reno.vax distribution currently > in the archive, or not? Reno doesn't have any limitations, it already supports KA630 and KA650, just like Quasijarus1. I personally don't use it, though, because it is not really True UNIX any more. With the evil spirit of POSIX and a bloat by a factor of 2 in both binaries and sources, Reno is the beginning of the destructive process that eventually (and necessarily) culminated with the disbanding of CSRG. > what non- > microvax machines will the 43reno.vax distribution boot on? 11/750? > 11/730? Of the big VAXen, plain 4.3 supports 11/780, 11/750, 11/730, and Venus (should have been called 11/790, but was unfortunately named 8600). Tahoe adds, and Quasijarus1 and Reno retain, the support for 8200. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id HAA12654 for pups-liszt; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 07:42:18 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

26 years, 7 months

4.3BSD Installation (probably off-topic)

by SHOPPA＠trailing-edge.com

I've been looking over the recent 4.3-ish BSD distributions now available from the PUPS archive. Thought I'd spin off a copy for booting on one of my spare uVax II's, but I'm stuck at (literally) before step one, and don't know where to go from here. If there's a more appropriate forum for these questions, I'd appreciate being redirected to them! OK, Before Step I, as doucmented in 4.3_on_uVax_instructions, is: YOU MUST ALREADY HAVE A WORKING VAX! These instructions are useless on a cold machine. You must have a 4.3 machine and a working uVax (probably Ultrix!) with a tk50 drive. Apparently, this is because the distributions don't boot on a Microvax, and the KA630 Microvax/MSCP/TMSCP patches must be installed and many things rebuilt on a 4.3 machine before a distribution tape can be built to put on a VAX. Is this an actual limitation on the 43reno.vax distribution currently in the archive, or not? If it is a real limitation, what non- microvax machines will the 43reno.vax distribution boot on? 11/750? 11/730? Tim. (shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA12354 for pups-liszt; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 06:15:56 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

26 years, 7 months

KA650 problem

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Dear Ladies and Gentlemen, I'm trying to build my first release (4.3BSD-Quasijarus1), and I have the following problem. I'm currently away from my main VAX farm, and so I have rounded up a new VAX for this task from an independent source. It's a KA650-based MicroVAX specially made for Xerox. The outer cabinet is made by Xerox, but it has a BA23 mounted inside. There is no video, just a serial terminal. My first problem was that the beast refused to power up. I turn on the power, but there is nothing on the console and the hex LED display on the back says 9. I power-cycled it several times with zero effect, and then I took the CPU board out to look at it. It looked perfectly normal, and I put it back in. Then imagine my joy when I power up the VAX and this time it works! After that I worked with it for a while, and in the process I turned it on and off a couple of times and it didn't have any problem powering up. My next step was installing Ultrix, which is the platform I have chosen to use for putting together the initial Quasijarus SCCS tree and cross- compiling the very first Quasijarus build. However, when I tried to boot from the Ultrix tape, I got a "?4B CTRLERR" (after an _extremely_ long wait with a lot of retries), which according to my docs means some hardware error. I reasoned that it has to be either the TK50 drive or the TQK50 controller. I don't have any spare TK50s at this location, but I do have one spare controller, and so I tried swapping it. I turned the machine off, swapped the board, and turned it back on. And guess what, that ugly 9 came back! I haven't been able to power up the VAX since then. I started investigating. I don't have any docs for KA650, but I do have some for KA655. According to these docs, the KA650 series CPUs have very elaborate ROM diagnostics organized in the form of scripts, some of which are executed at power-up. The manual lists all scripts, indicating the order of the tests and the hex LED display codes. According to this manual, the only tests which display a 9 are fairly late in the sequence and are fairly benign (shouldn't stall the power-up even if failed). The problem I'm seeing, OTOH, appears to be very early. For example, the console line loopback test appears to be one of the very first, and yet my VAX always stalls on the 9, even if I put the switch in the T-in-the-circle position. I have also watched the hex LED display very carefully right as I flip the power switch, and as far as I can tell it goes directly from F (waiting for DCOK) to 9. Finally, disconnecting the bulkhead and the memory interconnect produces absolutely no effect, suggesting that the culprit is the CPU board and nothing else. Also pushing the RESTART button on the front panel produces absolutely no effect, if the 9 was there it just stays there, there is no F appearing for a short time or anything like that. What does the RESTART button do, anyway? Does anyone here have a clue as to what's going on? Does anyone have a KA650 manual? Can anyone tell what the hell does the 9 stand for? Any ideas on how this can be fixed (other than replacing the CPU board)? TIA. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id TAA06383 for pups-liszt; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 19:08:01 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com> Fri Nov 20 18:07:44 1998 Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA06373 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 19:07:51 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from bdc(a)world.std.com) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id DAA11514; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 03:07:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA01332; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 00:07:44 -0800 Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 00:07:44 -0800 (PDT) From: Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com> To: PUPS Mailing List <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Cc: NetBSD/vax Mailing List <port-vax(a)netbsd.org> Subject: Loads of PDP-11 docs on Ebay. Message-Id: <Pine.SGI.3.95.981120000517.28198A-100000(a)world.std.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Just an FYI for all you PDP-11 collectors out there. A search for "DEC" under the Computers section of Ebay yields an impressive number of PDP-11 docs. -brian. --- Brian "JARAI" Chase | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ | VAXZilla LIVES!!! Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA09000 for pups-liszt; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:58:30 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Sat Nov 21 08:57:40 1998 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA08995 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:58:21 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from grog(a)freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA27497; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:27:46 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id JAA05923; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:27:40 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19981121092740.F1005(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:27:40 +1030 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com>, PUPS Mailing List <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Cc: NetBSD/vax Mailing List <port-vax(a)netbsd.org> Subject: Re: Loads of PDP-11 docs on Ebay. References: <Pine.SGI.3.95.981120000517.28198A-100000(a)world.std.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.3.95.981120000517.28198A-100000(a)world.std.com>; from Brian D Chase on Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 12:07:44AM -0800 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Friday, 20 November 1998 at 0:07:44 -0800, Brian D Chase wrote: > Just an FYI for all you PDP-11 collectors out there. A search for "DEC" > under the Computers section of Ebay yields an impressive number of PDP-11 > docs. What's Ebay? Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA09072 for pups-liszt; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 10:32:18 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com> Sat Nov 21 09:31:51 1998 Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA09067 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 10:32:10 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from bdc(a)world.std.com) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id SAA23532; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 18:31:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA16761; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 15:31:51 -0800 Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 15:31:51 -0800 (PDT) From: Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com> To: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Cc: PUPS Mailing List <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>, NetBSD/vax Mailing List <port-vax(a)netbsd.org> Subject: Re: Loads of PDP-11 docs on Ebay. In-Reply-To: <19981121092740.F1005(a)freebie.lemis.com> Message-Id: <Pine.SGI.3.95.981120153054.16667A-100000(a)world.std.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Sat, 21 Nov 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Friday, 20 November 1998 at 0:07:44 -0800, Brian D Chase wrote: > > Just an FYI for all you PDP-11 collectors out there. A search for "DEC" > > under the Computers section of Ebay yields an impressive number of PDP-11 > > docs. > > What's Ebay? Sorry about that... I'd thought everybody knew by now. It's the world's largest and most popular on-line auction service. http://www.ebay.com/ -brian. --- Brian "JARAI" Chase | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ | VAXZilla LIVES!!! Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id EAA12024 for pups-liszt; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 04:51:52 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

26 years, 7 months

4.2BSD and 4.3BSD

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Dear PUPS/TUHS members, I have just uploaded the images from the 4.3BSD tapes I had read on CWRU's MVS mainframe back in June. They are perfect (the 1600 BPI tapes were read without any errors and the format is absolutely correct). Note, though, that this is the June 1986 4.3BSD release, and I remember Kirk saying that among the tapes Rick is reading there is one with 4.3BSD revision 2, which is presumably 4.3BSD with some bugs fixed. I have also put an honest effort into reconstructing the 4.2BSD tape images from the files in Distributions/4bsd/Per_Andersson_4.2. The latter have the boot/standalone system file (1st on the tape) broken, the tarball with /usr/src also broken, and the tarball with /usr/lib/vfont simply missing. I have manually repaired the boot/standalone system file (using my brain and a hex editor), but unfortunately /usr/src is broken beyond repair (so I didn't include it in my repackaging). I see no reason for the Varian/Versatec fonts to change between BSD releases, so /usr/lib/vfont from 4.3BSD will probably do fine. It would still be nice if Rick could read Kirk's 4.2BSD tapes, though. For practical use 4.3BSD completely supersedes it, but for historical purposes we should preserve 4.2BSD as well. This stuff is in: /usr/home/msokolov/42.vax (4.2BSD) /usr/home/msokolov/43.vax (4.3BSD) on minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au. (Warren, if you want to put this in the main PUPS archive, go ahead and do it for 43.vax, as it should be ready to be frozen, but I would hold on with 42.vax. Hopefully Rick will have some luck reading Kirk's tapes, and then I'll update the 42.vax directory by filling the missing pieces.) Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA15543 for pups-liszt; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 06:04:29 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com> Tue Nov 17 05:14:44 1998 Received: from mail.calweb.com (mail.calweb.com [208.131.56.12]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA15538 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 06:04:19 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from rickgc(a)calweb.com) Received: by mail.calweb.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id LAA06615; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 11:04:05 -0800 (PST) X-SMTP: helo rgc from rickgc(a)calweb.com server @12.22.0.83 ip 12.22.0.83 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19981116111440.00922460(a)pop.calweb.com> X-Sender: rickgc(a)pop.calweb.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 11:14:44 -0800 To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au From: Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com> Subject: Re: 4.3BSD-Tahoe and 4.3BSD-Reno Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Warren, I am unable to login to minnie, I keep getting back "user rickgc access denied!". Why? Thanks, Rick Copeland Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA05416 for pups-liszt; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 12:57:22 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

26 years, 7 months

4.3BSD-Tahoe and 4.3BSD-Reno

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Dear PUPS/TUHS members, I have converted the 4.3BSD-Tahoe and 4.3BSD-Reno tape images Rick has recently uploaded into a more convenient format. I haven't changed anything in the images themselves, I have simply repacked them from a single .zip into a collection of .gz's, one per tape file. I have also prepared a listing for every tarball. This stuff is in: /usr/home/msokolov/43tahoe.cci (4.3BSD-Tahoe with CCI binaries) /usr/home/msokolov/43reno.vax (4.3BSD-Reno with VAX binaries) That's on minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au. The permissions are set up so that pupsarc group members (UNIX source license holders) can read them, but no one else can. With Warren's permission, I would like to keep this stuff there until I set up my own FTP site, at which time I'll announce its location. The Reno images are perfect, but for Tahoe usr.tar.gz and src.tar.gz are bad (everything else is fine). Apparently Rick wasn't able to read past a tape defect (we are handling this in private E-mail). Have fun with this stuff! Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA04992 for pups-liszt; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 14:37:26 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Nov 12 14:51:32 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA04987 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 14:36:57 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA05125 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 15:51:32 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199811120451.PAA05125(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: 4.3BSD-Tahoe and 4.3BSD-Reno Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 15:51:32 +1100 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199811120455.XAA09098(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Nov 11, 98 11:55:23 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Michael Sokolov: >I have converted the 4.3BSD-Tahoe and 4.3BSD-Reno tape images Rick has recently > uploaded into a more convenient format. I haven't changed anything in the > images themselves, I have simply repacked them from a single .zip into a > collection of .gz's, one per tape file. I have also prepared a listing for > every tarball. This stuff is in: > > /usr/home/msokolov/43tahoe.cci (4.3BSD-Tahoe with CCI binaries) > /usr/home/msokolov/43reno.vax (4.3BSD-Reno with VAX binaries) I'll move copies of Michael's 43tahoe.cci and 43reno.vax directories into the main PUPS archive area, in the Distributions/4bsd area. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id WAA01355 for pups-liszt; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 22:58:33 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

26 years, 7 months

Re: Thoughts...

by gq696＠cleveland.Freenet.Edu

Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes: > Unfortunately, Michael's email address has stopped working i.e whatever > machine holds the MX record isn't taking incoming mail messages. Actually there is no MX record. blackwidow.CWRU.Edu is an alias (CNAME record) for blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu, which has IP address 129.22.50.4. This IP address belongs to my VAX running Ultrix. Some time last week it stopped responding to ping, and because I'm off-campus since 3-AUG-1998 I can't do anything about it right now. If everything works out OK, I should be able to come back to campus and get my machine back up the coming Monday, 17-AUG-1998. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Cellular Phone: 216-217-2579 *TEMPORARY* ARPA Internet SMTP mail: gq696(a)cleveland.freenet.edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA04850 for pups-liszt; Fri, 14 Aug 1998 08:54:26 +1000 (EST) >From Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com> Fri Aug 14 09:03:04 1998 Received: from mail.calweb.com (mail.calweb.com [208.131.56.12]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA04845 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 14 Aug 1998 08:54:20 +1000 (EST) Received: by mail.calweb.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id PAA28451 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 15:54:12 -0700 (PDT) X-SMTP: helo isd from rickgc(a)calweb.com server @sac12-81.calweb.com ip 207.211.93.81 user=rickgc Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980813160254.0091bbe0(a)pop.calweb.com> X-Sender: rickgc(a)pop.calweb.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 16:03:04 -0700 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) From: Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com> Subject: PDP-1103 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Dear List, I am trying to work with a PDP 1103 that has been removed from a Vax 11/785. The goal is to be able to write RX01's with the required boot blocks required by NetBSD Vax to boot the 11/785. I figured that since I had several of these 1103's that I could set one up specifically to write RX01's by running some kind of operating system on one that would talk to one of my other machines(Sun 3/80 running NetBSD, Sparc 2 running Solarus 2.51, Vax 3600 running NetBSD, i86's running FreeBSD, NetBSD, Windows 95) via rs232 or what ever. Anyone got any ideas how I might do this? Thanks, Rick Copeland Information Systems Manager InterMag, Inc. (916) 568-6744 x36 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA28571 for pups-liszt; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 00:32:06 +1000 (EST) >From Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> Wed Aug 19 00:31:38 1998 Received: from aiai.ed.ac.uk (eigg.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.41.7]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA28566 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 00:31:54 +1000 (EST) Received: from todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk (todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.105.40]) by aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA03051; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 15:31:39 +0100 (BST) Received: (tfb@localhost) by todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) id PAA19142; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 15:31:38 +0100 Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 15:31:38 +0100 Message-Id: <199808181431.PAA19142(a)todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk> From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Bill/Carolyn Pechter <pechter(a)shell.monmouth.com> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Old Unix Preservation -- How to save the SysV varients In-Reply-To: <199808052115.RAA12664(a)shell.monmouth.com> References: <199808052115.RAA12664(a)shell.monmouth.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.14 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk * Carolyn Pechter wrote: > One example is Masscomp/Concurrent's early RTU which had dual > universes (SysIII-SysV/BSD libraries), DEC-like ASTs and real-time processes. > Concurrent (originally Interdata, Perkin-Elmer) also had a very nice > non virtual memory SysVRel2 called Xelos as well as Edition VII. I may well have acces to tapes for RTUs of 1988-89 vintage, as there were several masscomps here (in fact there still is at least one in the basement, not working). No source though of course, and without source they are probably less interesting. I remember RTU as being deeply unpleasant, but that may have been more due to the HW which was extremely flaky, at least on the bigger of our machines. --tim Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA01833 for pups-liszt; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:04:43 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Aug 19 13:06:45 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA01828 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:04:39 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA12804 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:06:45 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199808190306.NAA12804(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Yet More SCO Licenses To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:06:45 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk A whole bunch of SCO licenses have arrived on my desk, bringing the total of Ancient UNIX licenses to 67. Joseph Bickel, Atindra Chaturvedi, Peter Chubb, J. D. Knaebel, Eric Delgado, Hendrik Dykstra, Glenn Geers, Michael Homsey, Michael J. Haertel, Andrew Lynch, Keizo Maeda, Giegrich Michael, Lyndon Nerenberg, and Jim Williams are all now licensed. Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA24019 for pups-liszt; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 00:47:31 +1000 (EST) >From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Wed Sep 2 00:42:20 1998 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA24014 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 00:47:24 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA15214; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 10:42:23 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199809011442.KAA15214(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Looking for rationale of fs naming conventions To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 10:42:20 -0400 (EDT) Cc: rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (User RDKEYS Robert D. Keys), bsdbob(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (Robert D. Keys) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I am curious as to the rationale and reasoning behind: 1) fs naming conventions 2) fs space allocation conventions 3) fs to partition mapping conventions 4) partition conventions historically in unix (particularly the BSD's). Why the differences between 4.3 and 4.4 as relates to var? Why the differences between 4.3 and 4.4 as relates to the contrib sections? Why the convention of hd0a/b/c/d/e/f/g/h for the various fs? I understand the reasoning of a/b/c, but after that the rhyme and reason goes wild, with everyone seemingly doing their own thing. What was the logic of it, originally? Why the sizes of the various fs? I am trying to understand historically the hows and whys things developed as they did. The SMM's don't really cover it very well. Thanks Bob Keys Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA24452 for pups-liszt; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 03:20:52 +1000 (EST) >From Eric Fischer <eric(a)fudge.uchicago.edu> Wed Sep 2 03:19:07 1998 Received: from fudge.uchicago.edu (fudge.uchicago.edu [128.135.136.68]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA24447 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 03:20:40 +1000 (EST) Received: (from eric@localhost) by fudge.uchicago.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA15499; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 12:19:07 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 12:19:07 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199809011719.MAA15499(a)fudge.uchicago.edu> From: Eric Fischer <eric(a)fudge.uchicago.edu> To: rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Looking for rationale of fs naming conventions In-Reply-To: <199809011442.KAA15214(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> References: <199809011442.KAA15214(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Organization: The University of Chicago Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> I don't think I really have all the background necessary to answer these questions, but I'll give it a shot anyway: > Why the differences between 4.3 and 4.4 as relates to var? I believe /var originated in SunOS at a time when Sun was heavily promoting network-mounted file systems. In order to allow /usr to be mounted read-only across the network from a shared server, it was necessary to move all the files that would need to be modified by a running system from their traditional locations in /usr onto a file system that would be writable (and probably not shared with other systems). The rearrangement was then widely copied by other systems, including 4.4BSD. > Why the convention of hd0a/b/c/d/e/f/g/h for the various fs? I understand > the reasoning of a/b/c, but after that the rhyme and reason goes wild, > with everyone seemingly doing their own thing. What was the logic of it, > originally? It looks like this one really originated with the Seventh Edition, where "hp" disks were permanently partitioned as follows: partition start length 0 0 23 -> a 1 23 21 -> b 2 0 0 -> c 3 0 0 -> d 4 44 386 -> e 5 430 385 -> f 6 44 367 -> g 7 44 771 -> h (the start and length are in cylinders of 418 blocks apiece) A generic installation, according to the manual, would put root on partition 0, swap on partition 1, and /usr on partition 4 or 7. Partitions 2 or 3 could be used to access an entire disk. Clearly if partition 4 was used for /usr then partition 5 could be used for something else, while if 7 was used it would take up the entire rest of the disk. I'm not sure what the motivation was for the size of partition 6, even though partition g now seems to be the standard one for /usr, but presumably the space between cylinders 411 and 430 could be put to use somehow. The Sixth Edition also had fixed-size partitions, but of different sizes than the Seventh Edition used: partition start length 0 0 9614 -> a 1 18392 65535 -> b 2 48018 65535 -> c 3 149644 20900 -> d 4 0 40600 -> e 5 41800 40600 -> f 6 83600 40600 -> g 7 125400 40600 -> h (these numbers are in blocks, not cylinders). The manual explains the motivation for partitioning: This is done since the size of a full RP drive is 170,544 blocks and internally the system is only capable of addressing 65,536 blocks. Also since the disk is so large, this allows it to be broken up into more managable pieces. I don't understand why these particular sizes were chosen, though, because they don't seem to add up in any sensible way without wasting space or overlapping. > Why the sizes of the various fs? The original reason for root to be small and /usr to be large was, I believe, so that the most commonly-used files could be kept on a small, fast, and expensive, head-per-track disk, while the less-frequently used files would be on the larger, slower, but cheaper conventional disk, and the division was maintained even when systems put both file systems on the same disk. As for the exact sizes chosen, I don't know. eric Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA24641 for pups-liszt; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 04:21:24 +1000 (EST) >From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Wed Sep 2 04:16:04 1998 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA24636 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 04:21:18 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA15796; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 14:16:06 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199809011816.OAA15796(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: Looking for rationale of fs naming conventions In-Reply-To: <199809011719.MAA15499(a)fudge.uchicago.edu> from Eric Fischer at "Sep 1, 98 12:19:07 pm" To: eric(a)fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 14:16:04 -0400 (EDT) Cc: rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (User RDKEYS Robert D. Keys), pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Thanks Eric.... that sort of discussion makes my day, and feeds my woefully short history folder, nicely! Does anything in print cover this sort of thing in one place? So much to learn.... Bob Keys Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA24730 for pups-liszt; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 05:02:01 +1000 (EST) >From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Wed Sep 2 04:56:49 1998 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA24725 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 05:01:55 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA15872; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 14:56:51 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199809011856.OAA15872(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: Looking for rationale of fs naming conventions (more????) In-Reply-To: <199809011719.MAA15499(a)fudge.uchicago.edu> from Eric Fischer at "Sep 1, 98 12:19:07 pm" To: eric(a)fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 14:56:49 -0400 (EDT) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > > From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> > > Why the differences between 4.3 and 4.4 as relates to var? > > I believe /var originated in SunOS at a time when Sun was heavily > promoting network-mounted file systems. In order to allow /usr to be > mounted read-only across the network from a shared server, it was > necessary to move all the files that would need to be modified by a > running system from their traditional locations in /usr onto a file > system that would be writable (and probably not shared with other > systems). The rearrangement was then widely copied by other systems, > including 4.4BSD. OK. Now it is beginning to make sense. IF one is putting together a small system, where things like remote mounting or large numbers of users are NOT going to be present, are there any sorts of particular reasons to even have a /var fs? For example, on my FBSD boxes (yeah, I know new stuff and not Ancient Unixes, but I have to run it at the office --- at home is another story), I find that I use var mostly for temp stuff, spooling prints and mail, and little else. The ftp user is off on another fs with regular users, where space is not critical (since my ftp archives can vary widely, across time) and I don't want to take up a lot of space with a mostly empty var. That leads to the question of whether or not it is workable to put var as a tree within the root fs? And, then, what did the earlier systems like 32V or V7 use as the mail or print spooling areas? I don't have much info on the earlier systems, except for bits and pieces that I have run across. Sadly, our library here at MOO U, has little from earlier days. Is any of this around on-line? > > Why the convention of hd0a/b/c/d/e/f/g/h for the various fs? I understand > > the reasoning of a/b/c, but after that the rhyme and reason goes wild, > > with everyone seemingly doing their own thing. What was the logic of it, > > originally? > > It looks like this one really originated with the Seventh Edition, > where "hp" disks were permanently partitioned as follows: > > partition start length > 0 0 23 -> a > 1 23 21 -> b > 2 0 0 -> c > 3 0 0 -> d > 4 44 386 -> e > 5 430 385 -> f > 6 44 367 -> g > 7 44 771 -> h > > (the start and length are in cylinders of 418 blocks apiece) Does this imply that the permanent partitions were pdp-hardware related, or due to limitations in fs addressing schemes due to processor or code design limits? > A generic installation, according to the manual, would put root on > partition 0, swap on partition 1, and /usr on partition 4 or 7. > Partitions 2 or 3 could be used to access an entire disk. Is the 2 and 3 partition ever used, or was that just something that came along for the ride with the hardware, and not used by unix? > Clearly if partition 4 was used for /usr then partition 5 could be used > for something else, while if 7 was used it would take up the entire > rest of the disk. I'm not sure what the motivation was for the size of > partition 6, even though partition g now seems to be the standard one > for /usr, but presumably the space between cylinders 411 and 430 could > be put to use somehow. > > The Sixth Edition also had fixed-size partitions, but of different > sizes than the Seventh Edition used: > > partition start length > 0 0 9614 -> a > 1 18392 65535 -> b > 2 48018 65535 -> c > 3 149644 20900 -> d > 4 0 40600 -> e > 5 41800 40600 -> f > 6 83600 40600 -> g > 7 125400 40600 -> h > > (these numbers are in blocks, not cylinders). The manual explains > the motivation for partitioning: > > This is done since the size of a full RP drive is 170,544 blocks > and internally the system is only capable of addressing 65,536 > blocks. Also since the disk is so large, this allows it to be > broken up into more managable pieces. OK, now it is beginning to make some sense. It would seem to be due to addressing limits in the machine (drive? processor? code?). It is interesting that here it seems that partitions 1 and 2 were co-addressed, or overlapping, while 4/5/6/7 were sequentially laid out across the disk, perhaps. It would seem that 4/5/6/7 were just simple divisions of the disk into 4 pieces. Was something like this done to accommodate whether the drive was used a a boot drive or a secondary drive? > I don't understand why these particular sizes were chosen, though, > because they don't seem to add up in any sensible way without wasting > space or overlapping. > > > Why the sizes of the various fs? > > The original reason for root to be small and /usr to be large was, I > believe, so that the most commonly-used files could be kept on a small, > fast, and expensive, head-per-track disk, while the less-frequently used > files would be on the larger, slower, but cheaper conventional disk, > and the division was maintained even when systems put both file systems > on the same disk. As for the exact sizes chosen, I don't know. Interesting. What sizes, relatively, were such drives from that era of the high-speed type, and by what manufacture? > eric Again... Thanks! Bob Keys Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA24871 for pups-liszt; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 05:46:21 +1000 (EST) >From Eric Fischer <eric(a)fudge.uchicago.edu> Wed Sep 2 05:45:53 1998 Received: from fudge.uchicago.edu (fudge.uchicago.edu [128.135.136.68]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA24866 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 05:46:14 +1000 (EST) Received: (from eric@localhost) by fudge.uchicago.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA16702; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 14:45:53 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 14:45:53 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199809011945.OAA16702(a)fudge.uchicago.edu> From: Eric Fischer <eric(a)fudge.uchicago.edu> To: rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Looking for rationale of fs naming conventions (more????) In-Reply-To: <199809011856.OAA15872(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> References: <199809011856.OAA15872(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Organization: The University of Chicago Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> [snip] > IF one is putting together a small system, where things like remote mounting > or large numbers of users are NOT going to be present, are there any sorts > of particular reasons to even have a /var fs? There's no urgent need for it if you don't mind having it as part of root or /usr. On some systems it's nice to have /var on a separate partition so that large mail spools or log files that fill up the /var partition won't also break root or /usr, but this works both ways, because if you had allowed it to be part of a larger partition it might not have filled up in the first place. > That leads to the question of whether or not it is workable to put > var as a tree within the root fs? Lots of systems set it up as just a regular directory within the root directory. Others (like SGIs) make it really be /usr/var and put a symlink from /var to there. > And, then, what did the earlier systems like 32V or V7 use as the > mail or print spooling areas? V7 mail keeps files in /usr/spool/mail; earlier systems did not have an equivalent directory and delivered mail files directly to users' home directories. UUCP in v7 spooled files to /usr/spool/uucp. The v6 manual (in the manpage for opr) refers to printer spool directories /lib/dpr, /lib/lpr, and /lib/npr; the lpd manpage also lists /usr/lpd. > I don't have much info on the earlier systems, except for bits and > pieces that I have run across. Sadly, our library here at MOO U, > has little from earlier days. Is any of this around on-line? The v1 manual (as TIFF-format scans and OCRed PostScript), as well as much other historical material, is available from Dennis Ritchie's web page, http://plan9.bell-labs.com/who/dmr/ The v7 manual is also at the same site but in http://plan9.bell-labs.com/7thEdMan/ The v6 manual can be extracted from the binary v6 distribution that you can run on a PDP-11 emulator, though troff changed a bit between v6 and v7 so you have to work a bit to get it to format with a modern ditroff. > Does this imply that the permanent partitions were pdp-hardware related, > or due to limitations in fs addressing schemes due to processor or > code design limits? I think they were specifically there for convenience. The smaller disks that were also supported did not all have partitions. > Is the 2 and 3 partition ever used, or was that just something > that came along for the ride with the hardware, and not used by > unix? I imagine it would be used if you devoted an entire disk to a single file system, or as a way of copying the entire contents of the disk regardless of the partitioning to another device for backup. > OK, now it is beginning to make some sense. It would seem to be due > to addressing limits in the machine (drive? processor? code?). The v6 C compiler does not have long integers and the PDP-11 is a 16-bit machine, so that's why everything was limited to 65536 blocks. If you want *real* weirdness, check out the v1 manual, in which the seek call had not yet been made to deal with anything over 65536 *bytes*, so seeking on disks worked very strangely. > Interesting. What sizes, relatively, were such drives from that era > of the high-speed type, and by what manufacture? If I'm reading the First Edition manual right, the fixed-head disk was the DEC RF11, with 1024 256-byte blocks -- yes, 256K bytes for the entire hard disk. Dennis Ritchie's paper "The Evolution of the Unix Time-sharing System" refers to a 512K disk, though, so I don't know which to believe. eric Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA24981 for pups-liszt; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 06:29:54 +1000 (EST) >From Pat Barron <pat(a)transarc.com> Wed Sep 2 06:28:24 1998 Received: from mailhost2.transarc.com (mailhost2.transarc.com [158.98.14.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA24976 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 06:29:48 +1000 (EST) Received: from smithfield.transarc.com (smithfield.transarc.com [158.98.16.10]) by mailhost2.transarc.com (8.8.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id QAA01769; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 16:28:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 16:28:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Barron <pat(a)transarc.com> Reply-To: Pat Barron <pat(a)transarc.com> To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Looking for rationale of fs naming conventions (more????) In-Reply-To: <199809011856.OAA15872(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.980901155532.16237I-100000(a)smithfield.transarc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, 1 Sep 1998, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote: > IF one is putting together a small system, where things like remote mounting > or large numbers of users are NOT going to be present, are there any sorts > of particular reasons to even have a /var fs? Sure, as long as you make the root filesystem large enough, you can just have /var be part of the root filesystem (or do like small SunOS/Slowaris systems do, and have /var be a symbolic link to /usr/var - reasonably safe, since SunOS and Slowaris both tend to assume that /usr is always mounted). > [...] And, then, what did the earlier > systems like 32V or V7 use as the mail or print spooling areas? Mail is dropped into /usr/spool/mail, or /usr/mail, depending on what system you're talking about. Don't remember where printing went (I actually don't remember if V7 even had a print-spooling system; I did a lot of printing by doing "pr filename > /dev/lp".... > Does this imply that the permanent partitions were pdp-hardware related, > or due to limitations in fs addressing schemes due to processor or > code design limits? The partition sizes were compiled into the driver, not stored in a disk label such as with more modern Unixes (and that was actually the case until fairly recently - I don't think that disk labels made it into the Berkeley code until at least the 4.3BSD-Tahoe release). If you wanted to change a partition boundary, you had to edit some constants in the driver and recompile your kernel (or do what I used to do a lot - use "adb -w" to change the driver tables on-the-fly, and then try to remember to make the same changes to the source code so you didn't get a surprise next time you rebuilt the kernel.....). > > This is done since the size of a full RP drive is 170,544 blocks > > and internally the system is only capable of addressing 65,536 > > blocks. Also since the disk is so large, this allows it to be > > broken up into more managable pieces. > > OK, now it is beginning to make some sense. It would seem to be due > to addressing limits in the machine (drive? processor? code?). This was a filesystem limitation; the filesystem code could not handle more than 64K blocks in a filesystem, probably because it was using 16 bit unsigned integers internally. --Pat. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA02145 for pups-liszt; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 06:45:08 +1000 (EST) >From Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO> Thu Sep 3 06:14:56 1998 Received: from hesiod.nhh.no (root(a)hesiod.nhh.no [158.37.96.15]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA02122 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 06:44:57 +1000 (EST) Received: from athene.nhh.no (root(a)athene.nhh.no [158.37.96.16]) by hesiod.nhh.no (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA21643; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 22:43:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Hamartun.Priv.NO (Uhamartu@localhost) by athene.nhh.no (8.8.8/8.8.8) with UUCP id WAA04031; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 22:20:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from tih@localhost) by barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA14724; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 22:14:58 +0200 (CEST) To: Eric Fischer <eric(a)fudge.uchicago.edu> Cc: rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Looking for rationale of fs naming conventions (more????) References: <199809011856.OAA15872(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> <199809011945.OAA16702(a)fudge.uchicago.edu> From: Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO> Date: 02 Sep 1998 22:14:56 +0200 In-Reply-To: Eric Fischer's message of "Tue, 1 Sep 1998 14:45:53 -0500 (CDT)" Message-ID: <8690k2z2yn.fsf(a)barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO> X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.4/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Eric Fischer <eric(a)fudge.uchicago.edu> writes: > There's no urgent need for it if you don't mind having it as part of > root or /usr. On some systems it's nice to have /var on a separate > partition so that large mail spools or log files that fill up the > /var partition won't also break root or /usr, [...] Another good reason to keep /var (and, for that matter, /tmp) off the root partition is to keep that file system mostly quiescent. You really don't want more writing activity than is absolutely necessary on the file system you have to have intact to even get to single user to run 'fsck', 'restore' and friends. On some systems, having the root file system mounted read-only during normal operation would be a nice security improvement. -tih -- Popularity is the hallmark of mediocrity. --Niles Crane, "Frasier" Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA05528 for pups-liszt; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 06:46:06 +1000 (EST) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Fri Sep 4 06:45:37 1998 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (2026(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA05520 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 06:45:57 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA29001; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 22:45:39 +0200 Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 22:45:37 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: Eric Fischer <eric(a)fudge.uchicago.edu> cc: rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Looking for rationale of fs naming conventions (more????) In-Reply-To: <199809011945.OAA16702(a)fudge.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980903224315.28685A-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, 1 Sep 1998, Eric Fischer wrote: > > Interesting. What sizes, relatively, were such drives from that era > > of the high-speed type, and by what manufacture? > > If I'm reading the First Edition manual right, the fixed-head disk was > the DEC RF11, with 1024 256-byte blocks -- yes, 256K bytes for the > entire hard disk. Dennis Ritchie's paper "The Evolution of the Unix > Time-sharing System" refers to a 512K disk, though, so I don't know > which to believe. Are you sure that was 256-byte blocks? DEC usually talked about words when it came to the pdp-11, and one word is 2 bytes, meaning the block is 512 bytes. Almost all DEC disks have 512 byte blocks on the pdp-11. Anybody know any exceptions? (Is the RF-11? That disk is before my time...) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA05772 for pups-liszt; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 07:50:42 +1000 (EST) >From Eric Fischer <eric(a)fudge.uchicago.edu> Fri Sep 4 07:50:11 1998 Received: from fudge.uchicago.edu (fudge.uchicago.edu [128.135.136.68]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA05767 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 07:50:35 +1000 (EST) Received: (from eric@localhost) by fudge.uchicago.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA09714; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 16:50:11 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 16:50:11 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199809032150.QAA09714(a)fudge.uchicago.edu> From: Eric Fischer <eric(a)fudge.uchicago.edu> To: bqt(a)Update.UU.SE Subject: Re: Looking for rationale of fs naming conventions (more????) In-Reply-To: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980903224315.28685A-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> References: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980903224315.28685A-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> Organization: The University of Chicago Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> > Are you sure that was 256-byte blocks? DEC usually talked about words when > it came to the pdp-11, and one word is 2 bytes, meaning the block is 512 > bytes. Almost all DEC disks have 512 byte blocks on the pdp-11. Anybody > know any exceptions? (Is the RF-11? That disk is before my time...) Oh! You're right -- I looked at the line in the manual that says The disk contains 1024 256-word blocks, numbered 0 to 1023 ... and misread 256-word as 256-byte because it was such a strange concept that Unix would ever be doing word-oriented I/O. That makes a lot more sense. eric Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA06405 for pups-liszt; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 11:01:49 +1000 (EST) >From Kirk McKusick <mckusick(a)mckusick.com> Fri Sep 4 10:25:15 1998 Received: from flamingo.McKusick.COM (root(a)flamingo.mckusick.com [209.31.233.178]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA06400 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 11:01:43 +1000 (EST) Received: from flamingo.McKusick.COM (mckusick@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by flamingo.McKusick.COM (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA11780; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 17:25:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199809040025.RAA11780(a)flamingo.McKusick.COM> To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: Looking for rationale of fs naming conventions cc: eric(a)fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer), pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 01 Sep 1998 14:16:04 EDT." <199809011816.OAA15796(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 17:25:15 -0700 From: Kirk McKusick <mckusick(a)mckusick.com> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: Looking for rationale of fs naming conventions In-Reply-To: <199809011719.MAA15499(a)fudge.uchicago.edu> from Eric Fischer at "Sep 1, 98 12:19:07 pm" To: eric(a)fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 14:16:04 -0400 (EDT) Cc: rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (User RDKEYS Robert D. Keys), pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Thanks Eric.... that sort of discussion makes my day, and feeds my woefully short history folder, nicely! Does anything in print cover this sort of thing in one place? So much to learn.... Bob Keys The `diskpart' utility was used in 4.4BSD to organize disk partitions. Its manual page tries to rationalize the use of partitions. I enclose it below in case you do not have access to it. Kirk McKusick =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= DISKPART(8) BSD System Manager's Manual DISKPART(8) NAME diskpart - calculate default disk partition sizes SYNOPSIS diskpart [-p] [-d] [-s size] disk-type DESCRIPTION Diskpart is used to calculate the disk partition sizes based on the de- fault rules used at Berkeley. Available options and operands: -p Tables suitable for inclusion in a device driver are pro- duced. -d An entry suitable for inclusion in the disk description file /etc/disktab is generated; for example, disktab(5). -s size The size of the disk may be limited to size with the -s op- tion. On disks that use bad144(8) type of bad-sector forwarding, space is nor- mally left in the last partition on the disk for a bad sector forwarding table, although this space is not reflected in the tables produced. The space reserved is one track for the replicated copies of the table and sufficient tracks to hold a pool of 126 sectors to which bad sectors are mapped. For more information, see bad144(8). The -s option is intended for other controllers which reserve some space at the end of the disk for bad-sector replacements or other control areas, even if not a multiple of cylinders. The disk partition sizes are based on the total amount of space on the disk as given in the table below (all values are supplied in units of sectors). The `c' partition is, by convention, used to access the entire physical disk. The device driver tables include the space reserved for the bad sector forwarding table in the `c' partition; those used in the disktab and default formats exclude reserved tracks. In normal opera- tion, either the `g' partition is used, or the `d', `e', and `f' parti- tions are used. The `g' and `f' partitions are variable-sized, occupying whatever space remains after allocation of the fixed sized partitions. If the disk is smaller than 20 Megabytes, then diskpart aborts with the message ``disk too small, calculate by hand''. Partition 20-60 MB 61-205 MB 206-355 MB 356+ MB a 15884 15884 15884 15884 b 10032 33440 33440 66880 d 15884 15884 15884 15884 e unused 55936 55936 307200 h unused unused 291346 291346 If an unknown disk type is specified, diskpart will prompt for the re- quired disk geometry information. SEE ALSO disktab(5), bad144(8) BUGS Most default partition sizes are based on historical artifacts (like the RP06), and may result in unsatisfactory layouts. When using the -d flag, alternate disk names are not included in the out- put. HISTORY The diskpart command appeared in 4.2BSD. 4th Berkeley Distribution June 6, 1993 2 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA06477 for pups-liszt; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 11:18:48 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Sep 4 11:19:01 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA06472 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 11:18:44 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA04168 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 11:19:01 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199809040119.LAA04168(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Looking for rationale of fs naming conventions To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 11:19:01 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > Thanks Eric.... that sort of discussion makes my day, and feeds my > woefully short history folder, nicely! Does anything in print cover > this sort of thing in one place? > > Bob Keys As with much of early Unix, you have to Use the Source, Luke. Small disks like the RK05s and RL02 were not typically partitioned, except to put a swap space at one end. However, bigger disks like the RP04s were. In V6 and V7, this was done by the device driver, and the device minor number represented the particular partition, e.g from v6 hp.c struct { char *nblocks; int cyloff; } hp_sizes[] { 9614, 0, /* cyl 0 thru 23 */ /* cyl 24 thru 43 available */ -1, 44, /* cyl 44 thru 200 */ -1, 201, /* cyl 201 thru 357 */ 20900, 358, /* cyl 358 thru 407 */ /* cyl 408 thru 410 blank */ 40600, 0, 40600, 100, 40600, 200, 40600, 300, }; . . . hpstrategy(abp) struct buf *abp; { register struct buf *bp; register char *p1, *p2; bp = abp; p1 = &hp_sizes[bp->b_dev.d_minor&07]; Here, each of the 8 minor device numbers selected a different set of cylinders on the disk, and note also that some of the sets overlapped. The V6 manual on hp(4) says: Since the disk is so large, this allows it to be broken up into more manageable pieces. The origin and size of the pseudo-disks on each drive are as follows: disk start length 0 0 9614 1 18392 65535 2 48018 65535 3 149644 20900 4 0 40600 5 41800 40600 6 83600 40600 7 125400 40600 It is unwise for all of these files to be present in one installation, since there is overlap in addresses and protection becomes a sticky matter. Early versions of BSD followed this compile-time partition selection. I'm note sure when disklabels appeared, perhaps in 4.2BSD. Kirk or Steven might be able to tell us. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA19059 for pups-liszt; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 04:16:01 +1000 (EST) >From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Tue Sep 8 04:10:42 1998 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA19054 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 04:15:54 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA29122; Mon, 7 Sep 1998 14:10:45 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199809071810.OAA29122(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: Looking for rationale of fs naming conventions In-Reply-To: <199809040025.RAA11780(a)flamingo.McKusick.COM> from Kirk McKusick at "Sep 3, 98 05:25:15 pm" To: mckusick(a)mckusick.com (Kirk McKusick) Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 14:10:42 -0400 (EDT) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > The `diskpart' utility was used in 4.4BSD to organize disk partitions. > Its manual page tries to rationalize the use of partitions. I enclose > it below in case you do not have access to it. > > Kirk McKusick Thanks! A couple of more questions, so I get the entire picture.....since you were there.... as the old TV show went..... > In normal opera- > tion, either the `g' partition is used, or the `d', `e', and `f' parti- > tions are used. The `g' and `f' partitions are variable-sized, occupying > whatever space remains after allocation of the fixed sized partitions. What are d,e, and f partititions typically used for or originally designed for, as opposed to g? I see some of the historical carryovers in how they were arrived at, but I sense there was probably some reasoning or design advantages one way over another, back in time, or else there would not have been the distinctions. > Partition 20-60 MB 61-205 MB 206-355 MB 356+ MB > a 15884 15884 15884 15884 > b 10032 33440 33440 66880 > d 15884 15884 15884 15884 d is a small partition, so what would it have been designed to be used for? It seems the same as root in size, so would it have been, for example, a spare root copy? > e unused 55936 55936 307200 e is variable in size, and the only use I have seen of it is for the /var fs, so, what was e designed for, or typically used as? > h unused unused 291346 291346 Likewise for h. In my limited exposure, I have seen in 4.3BSD that g was typically used for the /usr partition as the rest of the disk. On 4.4BSD, /var was hung on e and g was the usr partition for the rest of the disk, on one setup, and on another things were really confused and var was hung on h, with all different kinds of other fs hung out here and there across the disks. The rationale for it was, at best, confusing to the newbie. Is it particularly important to worry about how it is laid out, or in the Berkeley tradition, are there particular advantages or economies to laying it out with d/e/f/ as opposed to just g? I see the fs loading table in the 4.4 install guide, but was wondering if there was more to it than that. > BUGS > Most default partition sizes are based on historical artifacts (like the > RP06), and may result in unsatisfactory layouts. This is what I am seeing, it would appear. Maybe the advantages of earlier layouts vs disks are becoming lost with the modern megadisks, in many instances. Also, I tend to see things from the point of view of a single user workstation as opposed to a big multiuser server of some kind. Thus, my frame of refernce is a little skewed. Thanks Bob Keys Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA24382 for pups-liszt; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 11:27:21 +1000 (EST) >From Kirk McKusick <mckusick(a)mckusick.com> Wed Sep 9 07:16:11 1998 Received: from knecht.Sendmail.ORG (knecht.sendmail.org [209.31.233.160]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA24376 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 11:27:15 +1000 (EST) Received: from flamingo.McKusick.COM (root(a)flamingo.mckusick.com [209.31.233.178]) by knecht.Sendmail.ORG (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA14038; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 18:27:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from flamingo.McKusick.COM (mckusick@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by flamingo.McKusick.COM (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA19252; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 14:16:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199809082116.OAA19252(a)flamingo.McKusick.COM> To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: Looking for rationale of fs naming conventions cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 07 Sep 1998 14:10:42 EDT." <199809071810.OAA29122(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 14:16:11 -0700 From: Kirk McKusick <mckusick(a)mckusick.com> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Most commonly, d was used for /tmp (before the days of memory-based filesystems). The e partition was used for /var, and f was used for /usr. The e partition was the same size as the root filesystem so that it could be used as a backup root filesystem. Kirk McKusick Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA03259 for pups-liszt; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:54:53 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Sep 11 09:54:51 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA03253 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:54:48 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA02038 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:54:51 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199809102354.JAA02038(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: CSRG CDs now available To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:54:51 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk All, Kirk McKusick is back from his 3-week trip and is now shipping the 4CD set of BSD releases from the Computer Systems Research group. It covers all BSD versions from 1BSD to 4.4BSD and 4.4BSD-Lite2 (but not 2.11BSD, unfortunately). As well, the last disk holds the final sources plus the SCCS files. Details at http://www.mckusick.com/csrg/ Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA12474 for pups-liszt; Sat, 19 Sep 1998 21:23:59 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sat Sep 19 21:12:17 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA12469 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 19 Sep 1998 21:23:55 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA01670 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Sat, 19 Sep 1998 21:24:03 +1000 (EST) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA12438 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 19 Sep 1998 21:12:10 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA01633 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Sat, 19 Sep 1998 21:12:17 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199809191112.VAA01633(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Help Save 4BSD Boot Tapes! To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 21:12:17 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Many kudos to Kirk McKusick for making the entire BSD releases from the Computer Systems Research Group available on CD. However, many people are going to buy the CD set so they can install 4.3BSD on their personal Vax. Unfortunately, the 4CD set from Kirk does not contain any tape images (bootable or otherwise) which would allow any of the 4BSDs to be installed. Therefore, I'm asking anybody who might have old 4BSD tapes lying in a corner, or knows someone who might have old 4BSD tapes (or has heard a rumor about old 4BSD tapes etc.) to e-mail me with the details. If we can unearth any old 4BSD tapes, then I am sure there will be volunteers around who will be very happy to read the tapes, and I will make space for them alongside the other files and tape images in the PUPS archive. While I'm here, I might as well say that I'm still looking for any old PDP-11 versions of UNIX, or any applications written for early versions of UNIX, or anything machine-readable which is generally related to early versions of UNIX. Debbie Scherrer has just donated the Software Tools, and both Dennis Ritchie and Norman Wilson are slowly scanning in their paper copies of man pages for UNIX Editions 1 to 5. Many thanks in advance for your help in preserving the history of Unix. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA04014 for pups-liszt; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 04:14:38 +1000 (EST) >From Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com> Sat Oct 3 04:14:22 1998 Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA04009 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 04:14:31 +1000 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id OAA14142; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 14:14:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA24749; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 11:14:22 -0700 Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 11:14:22 -0700 (PST) From: Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com> To: PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: CSRG CDs now available In-Reply-To: <199809102354.JAA02038(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <Pine.SGI.3.95.981002111200.28977B-100000(a)world.std.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, 11 Sep 1998, Warren Toomey wrote: > Kirk McKusick is back from his 3-week trip and is now shipping > the 4CD set of BSD releases from the Computer Systems Research group. > It covers all BSD versions from 1BSD to 4.4BSD and 4.4BSD-Lite2 (but not > 2.11BSD, unfortunately). As well, the last disk holds the final sources > plus the SCCS files. > > Details at http://www.mckusick.com/csrg/ FYI, these are a *really* nice set of CDs. I was completely amazed at how professionally they'd been put together. Any progress on the BSD binary images for VAX? -brian. --- Brian "JARAI" Chase | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ | VAXZilla LIVES!!! Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA26021 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 08:54:33 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Oct 8 08:55:04 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA26016 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 08:54:29 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA22782 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 08:55:04 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199810072255.IAA22782(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Found 4BSD tapes at last To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 08:55:04 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk ----- Forwarded message from Kirk McKusick ----- To: "J.S. Havard", Warren Toomey Subject: Found at Last My excavations on campus turned up six boxes of 9-track tapes containing most of the BSD distributions. In particular, I have found one labelled "4.3BSD Revision 2, Domestic Master" 6250bpi 3/4/87. There is also a similar tape (presumably revision 1) from about six months earlier. I do not have access to a 9-track tape drive, so I have no idea if the tape is even readable, but I am willing to mail it to someone who does have a 6250bpi drive that wants to take a crack at it. ~Kirk ----- End of forwarded message from Kirk McKusick ----- Would anybody near Kirk be prepared to read these tapes, gzip the tape records, type in any tape labels glued to the reels, and send the whole lot in to the PUPS archive?! Many thanks in advance for the help. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA03040 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 00:37:56 +1000 (EST) >From Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com> Fri Oct 9 00:46:54 1998 Received: from mail.calweb.com (mail.calweb.com [208.131.56.12]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA03035 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 00:37:50 +1000 (EST) Received: by mail.calweb.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id HAA10516; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 07:37:34 -0700 (PDT) X-SMTP: helo rgc from rickgc(a)calweb.com server @sac12-67.calweb.com ip 207.211.93.67 user=rickgc Message-Id: <3.0.32.19981008074651.008fe690(a)pop.calweb.com> X-Sender: rickgc(a)pop.calweb.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 07:46:54 -0700 To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) From: Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com> Subject: Re: Found 4BSD tapes at last Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Where is Kirk located? If it is near California, I can do the work. Rick Copeland Information Systems Manager InterMag, Inc. At 08:55 AM 10/8/98 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: >----- Forwarded message from Kirk McKusick ----- > >To: "J.S. Havard", Warren Toomey >Subject: Found at Last > >My excavations on campus turned up six boxes of 9-track tapes >containing most of the BSD distributions. In particular, I have >found one labelled "4.3BSD Revision 2, Domestic Master" 6250bpi >3/4/87. There is also a similar tape (presumably revision 1) from >about six months earlier. I do not have access to a 9-track tape >drive, so I have no idea if the tape is even readable, but I am >willing to mail it to someone who does have a 6250bpi drive that >wants to take a crack at it. > > ~Kirk > >----- End of forwarded message from Kirk McKusick ----- > >Would anybody near Kirk be prepared to read these tapes, gzip the >tape records, type in any tape labels glued to the reels, and send >the whole lot in to the PUPS archive?! > >Many thanks in advance for the help. > >Cheers, > Warren > > Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA03308 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 01:54:18 +1000 (EST) >From Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com> Fri Oct 9 02:03:21 1998 Received: from mail.calweb.com (mail.calweb.com [208.131.56.12]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA03303 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 01:54:12 +1000 (EST) Received: by mail.calweb.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id IAA02188; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 08:54:01 -0700 (PDT) X-SMTP: helo rgc from rickgc(a)calweb.com server @sac15-90.calweb.com ip 207.211.87.90 user=rickgc Message-Id: <3.0.32.19981008090318.0090f520(a)pop.calweb.com> X-Sender: rickgc(a)pop.calweb.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 09:03:21 -0700 To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) From: Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com> Subject: Re: Found 4BSD tapes at last Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Warren, Apparently Kirk is only 60 to 70 miles away from me, so shipping or pickup on the week end is not a problem. Please contact Kirk and have him contact me. Rick Copeland Information Systems Manager InterMag, Inc. (916) 568-6744 x36 At 08:55 AM 10/8/98 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: >----- Forwarded message from Kirk McKusick ----- > >To: "J.S. Havard", Warren Toomey >Subject: Found at Last > >My excavations on campus turned up six boxes of 9-track tapes >containing most of the BSD distributions. In particular, I have >found one labelled "4.3BSD Revision 2, Domestic Master" 6250bpi >3/4/87. There is also a similar tape (presumably revision 1) from >about six months earlier. I do not have access to a 9-track tape >drive, so I have no idea if the tape is even readable, but I am >willing to mail it to someone who does have a 6250bpi drive that >wants to take a crack at it. > > ~Kirk > >----- End of forwarded message from Kirk McKusick ----- > >Would anybody near Kirk be prepared to read these tapes, gzip the >tape records, type in any tape labels glued to the reels, and send >the whole lot in to the PUPS archive?! > >Many thanks in advance for the help. > >Cheers, > Warren > > Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA03360 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 02:15:10 +1000 (EST) >From "J. Joseph Max Katz" <jkatz(a)cpio.net> Fri Oct 9 02:21:56 1998 Received: from corinne.cpio.org (corinne.cpio.org [209.218.145.10]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA03355 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 02:15:05 +1000 (EST) Received: (qmail 9126 invoked by uid 1000); 8 Oct 1998 16:21:56 -0000 Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 09:21:56 -0700 (PDT) From: "J. Joseph Max Katz" <jkatz(a)cpio.net> X-Sender: jkatz(a)corinne.cpio.org To: Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com> cc: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Found 4BSD tapes at last In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19981008090318.0090f520(a)pop.calweb.com> Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.02.9810080921230.16361-100000(a)corinne.cpio.org> X-Silly-Sender: Mr. Potatoe Head Organization: CPIO Networks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk We may have some equipment at my workplace we can use. We're in San Jose, he's in Berkeley, 50-70 miles in the other direction. I need to get clearence from the boss, first, though. -Jon Jonathan Katz, CEO CPIO Networks, Inc. (408) 569-7092 [ ] jkatz(a)cpio.net http://www.cpio.net [ ] "offering OpenBSD technical support, on-site Unix and network security services and training." On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Rick Copeland wrote: :Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 09:03:21 -0700 :From: Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com> :To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> :Subject: Re: Found 4BSD tapes at last : :Warren, : :Apparently Kirk is only 60 to 70 miles away from me, so shipping or pickup :on the week end is not a problem. Please contact Kirk and have him contact :me. : :Rick Copeland :Information Systems Manager :InterMag, Inc. :(916) 568-6744 x36 : : :At 08:55 AM 10/8/98 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: :>----- Forwarded message from Kirk McKusick ----- :> :>To: "J.S. Havard", Warren Toomey :>Subject: Found at Last :> :>My excavations on campus turned up six boxes of 9-track tapes :>containing most of the BSD distributions. In particular, I have :>found one labelled "4.3BSD Revision 2, Domestic Master" 6250bpi :>3/4/87. There is also a similar tape (presumably revision 1) from :>about six months earlier. I do not have access to a 9-track tape :>drive, so I have no idea if the tape is even readable, but I am :>willing to mail it to someone who does have a 6250bpi drive that :>wants to take a crack at it. :> :> ~Kirk :> :>----- End of forwarded message from Kirk McKusick ----- :> :>Would anybody near Kirk be prepared to read these tapes, gzip the :>tape records, type in any tape labels glued to the reels, and send :>the whole lot in to the PUPS archive?! :> :>Many thanks in advance for the help. :> :>Cheers, :> Warren :> :> : Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA03449 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 02:50:07 +1000 (EST) >From Kirk McKusick <mckusick(a)mckusick.com> Fri Oct 9 02:34:48 1998 Received: from flamingo.McKusick.COM (root(a)flamingo.mckusick.com [209.31.233.178]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA03444 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 02:50:02 +1000 (EST) Received: from flamingo.McKusick.COM (mckusick@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by flamingo.McKusick.COM (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA09797; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 09:34:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199810081634.JAA09797(a)flamingo.McKusick.COM> To: Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com> Subject: Re: Found 4BSD tapes at last cc: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 08 Oct 1998 09:03:21 PDT." <3.0.32.19981008090318.0090f520(a)pop.calweb.com> Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 09:34:48 -0700 From: Kirk McKusick <mckusick(a)mckusick.com> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 09:03:21 -0700 To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) From: Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com> Subject: Re: Found 4BSD tapes at last Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Warren, Apparently Kirk is only 60 to 70 miles away from me, so shipping or pickup on the week end is not a problem. Please contact Kirk and have him contact me. Rick Copeland Information Systems Manager InterMag, Inc. (916) 568-6744 x36 Hi, I am located at: Kirk McKusick 1614 Oxford Street Berkeley, CA 94709-1608 I could mail you the tape, but I would prefer to find a way to get it to you that would minimize its being bounced around. Any ideas? Kirk McKusick Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA04624 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 08:42:10 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Oct 9 08:42:46 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA04619 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 08:42:05 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA24785 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 08:42:46 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199810082242.IAA24785(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: 4BSD tapes to be read To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 08:42:46 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk All, Rick Copeland has arranged to pick the 4BSD tapes up from Kirk and read them this or next week. Thanks to all the people who volunteered, and hopefully copies of the tapes will be in the archive soon. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA00493 for pups-liszt; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 12:51:20 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Nov 12 12:57:45 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA00382 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 12:43:07 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA04829 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 13:57:46 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199811120257.NAA04829(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Upgrade of PUPS List server To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 13:57:45 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk All, I have just upgraded the server where the PUPS mailing list resides, to a newer operating system version. This email is just to test that the MajorDomo software is still working. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA04919 for pups-liszt; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 14:28:57 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

26 years, 10 months

I'm still alive...

by gq696＠cleveland.Freenet.Edu

Dear TUHS members, Sorry for my sudden disappearance. There was nothing I could do about it. I am off-campus since 3-AUG-1998 and some time last week my machine (blackwidow) stopped responding to ping. I have also been away from computers in general until yesterday. If everything works out OK, I should be able to come back to campus and get my machine back up the coming Monday, 17-AUG-1998. For now I'm using my ancient Cleveland Free-Net account for mail. The address is in my signature. It's screwed up in a number of ways, starting with the funny way my name is written, but that's all I have for now. I originally wanted to follow the PUPS/TUHS list via the WWW archive, but it appears to be updated in a digest-like fashion (the normal practice for Majordomo), so that probably won't work out well. Warren, would you please add my temporary address to the list? From what I can see in the WWW archive (right now goes up to 5-AUG-1998 morning), the decision as to the future of the society has already been made. Oh well. Warren, as far as a WWW page or something describing my VAX UNIX work goes, a little later, OK? Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Cellular Phone: 216-217-2579 *TEMPORARY* ARPA Internet SMTP mail: gq696(a)cleveland.freenet.edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA25374 for pups-liszt; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:42:38 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Aug 12 09:43:56 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA25369 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:42:35 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA00744 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:43:56 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199808112343.JAA00744(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Thoughts... To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:43:56 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980812013327.13671E-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> from Johnny Billquist at "Aug 12, 98 01:36:42 am" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Johnny Billquist: > (Maybe it's time to drop out of PUPS, Sokolov is here, and for me, I'm not > into big old Unix, only pdp-11 stuff...) Unfortunately, Michael's email address has stopped working i.e whatever machine holds the MX record isn't taking incoming mail messages. Therefore I can't contact him to fix it. Looks like the Unix Heritage Society page at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/TUHS is getting some attention. Does anybody have any more hotlinks to add? I know that there's a 3B2 group somewhere, if I had a URL I'd add it. Ditto for any other Unix-related heritage pages. Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA01853 for pups-liszt; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 15:58:42 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 10 months

Re: A Decision :-)

by Greg Lehey

On Wednesday, 5 August 1998 at 9:11:53 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > Ok, here's the decision (for now). The PUPS mailing list now has the working > name: The UNIX Heritage Society. The email address will stay the same for > now. The mailing list topics are controlled by its members, so feel free to > chat about PDP-11 UNIX, 32-bit UNIX, Unix derived systems, your cat (well, > maybe not). I'm happy for chat about systems which don't require UNIX source > licences, too. > > Many people should set up web pages to cover their own particular interest. > Mine's at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/ > Someone (me?) will set up a web page describing the charter of The UNIX > Heritage Society, with pointers to everybody's web page. OK. Check out http://www.lemis.com/~grog/history.html. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA25348 for pups-liszt; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 01:11:56 +1000 (EST) >From Kees Stravers <pb0aia(a)iaehv.nl> Thu Aug 6 01:11:21 1998 Received: from IAEhv.nl (root(a)iaehv.IAEhv.nl [194.151.64.2]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA25343 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 01:11:49 +1000 (EST) Received: from 194.151.78.1 (pm3d00.IAEhv.nl [194.151.78.1]) by IAEhv.nl (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA26558 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 17:11:21 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 17:11:21 +0200 (CEST) From: Kees Stravers <pb0aia(a)iaehv.nl> Message-Id: <199808051511.RAA26558(a)IAEhv.nl> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: TUHS web page: version #0 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au said on Wed, 5 Aug 1998 02:13:48 +0200 (CEST) wk>The zeroth version of a web page for this all-encompassing group wk>thingy to cover all Unix preservation/development etc is now at: wk>http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/TUHS/ wk>Feel free (if not compelled) to mail me with suggestions, wk>hyperlinks, background artwork etc. Michael, would you be able to wk>knock up a VAX UNIX web page so I could add a hyperlink to it? Maybe I can help (a little). At this moment I am building a site dedicated to the VAX and its operating systems, mostly concentrating on hardware info and NetBSD for now, but I also have a links page to a lot of information on BSD and generic Unix, and there is a PDP11 links page. I am on this mailing list because I have several MicroPDP's here, and I want to run 2.11 on them, but at the time I am tinkering with the VAXen more often. (Unfortunately I haven't yet been able to request the licence from SCO, but that won't take too long anymore.) The site I am building is at http://vaxarchive.ml.org I would like to mirror the Unix heritage information on this site, there is room for some more files. Please take a look at my site and let me know what information you think should be there too that I missed, so I can make the site more complete. Kees -- Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - pb0aia at amsat dot org Sysadmin and DEC PDP/VAX preservationist - http://vaxarchive.ml.org http://www.iae.nl/users/kees/vax/ - My VAX and old iron collection Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Registered Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA26516 for pups-liszt; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 07:16:08 +1000 (EST) >From Bill/Carolyn Pechter <pechter(a)shell.monmouth.com> Thu Aug 6 07:15:52 1998 Received: from shell.monmouth.com (shell.monmouth.com [205.231.236.9]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA26511 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 07:16:02 +1000 (EST) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by shell.monmouth.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id RAA12664 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 17:15:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter <pechter(a)shell.monmouth.com> Message-Id: <199808052115.RAA12664(a)shell.monmouth.com> Subject: Old Unix Preservation -- How to save the SysV varients To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 17:15:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk One thing about preserving the Unix varients. There's a number of interesting (lesser known) versions with features that may be interesting to study. This may be because of my history major background -- or that I spent too many years in Field Service for far too many vendors of these boxes. One example is Masscomp/Concurrent's early RTU which had dual universes (SysIII-SysV/BSD libraries), DEC-like ASTs and real-time processes. Concurrent (originally Interdata, Perkin-Elmer) also had a very nice non virtual memory SysVRel2 called Xelos as well as Edition VII. Another Unix (which I'd kill for sources for) is Pyramid's OS/x which was a SysV/BSD4.2 dual universe box (with both sets of init/getty and 3 UUCP's). It was kind of the Universal Unix system. Pick your init, universe, UUCP... they're all in there. AT&T sold these as System 7000's, Siemens-Nixdorf also sold them. I worked for Pyramid and found it my favorite Unix to this day -- since I could mix and match features on the fly. Both of these versions are pretty dead today. I don't know if Siemens-Pyramid even supports OS/x any more (probably not -- since they're going Reliant SysVR4 and Solaris on the new stuff). The main drawback to getting these systems are they were was all implemented on SysIII or SysV releases -- so the licenses are constrained by the original "You need a SysV source license to get our source code plus our license fee." Bill Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA26958 for pups-liszt; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 09:46:36 +1000 (EST) >From Kees Stravers <pb0aia(a)iaehv.nl> Thu Aug 6 09:46:20 1998 Received: from IAEhv.nl (root(a)iaehv.IAEhv.nl [194.151.64.2]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA26953 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 09:46:30 +1000 (EST) Received: from 194.151.78.4 (pm3d03.IAEhv.nl [194.151.78.4]) by IAEhv.nl (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA21053 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 01:46:20 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 01:46:20 +0200 (CEST) From: Kees Stravers <pb0aia(a)iaehv.nl> Message-Id: <199808052346.BAA21053(a)IAEhv.nl> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Old Unix Preservation -- How to save the SysV varients Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk pechter(a)shell.monmouth.com said on Thu, 6 Aug 1998 00:08:07 +0200 (CEST) pe>One thing about preserving the Unix varients. There's a number of pe>interesting (lesser known) versions with features that may be pe>interesting to study. This may be because of my history major pe>background -- or that I spent too many years in Field Service for pe>far too many vendors of these boxes. pe>One example is Masscomp/Concurrent's early RTU which had dual pe>universes (SysIII-SysV/BSD libraries), DEC-like ASTs and real-time pe>processes. Concurrent (originally Interdata, Perkin-Elmer) also pe>had a very nice non virtual memory SysVRel2 called Xelos as well as pe>Edition VII. 8< snip >8 Do you have any hardware documentation left on the Masscomps? I have a 5700 here in the basement and a stack of floppies that should be the install set for RTU 5.0, but the hard disk, a Fujitsu Eagle, is dead. There is no information on the machine to be found on the net at all and the newsgroup has been dead for years. I'd put up a page on the machine myself if I knew something worth telling about it. I don't have any hardware manuals, only a very incomplete set on the OS. Can I mount any SMD drive in the machine and tell the install about the geometry or do I also have to tell the controller? How do I copy the disks? Can Teledisk duplicate them? (I once saw that it said it copied the disk successfully, but the target machine couldn't read it.) Kees -- Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - pb0aia at amsat dot org Sysadmin and DEC PDP/VAX preservationist - http://vaxarchive.ml.org Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Registered Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA28239 for pups-liszt; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 15:24:14 +1000 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Thu Aug 6 15:23:54 1998 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA28234 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 15:24:07 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id OAA23554; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 14:53:55 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id OAA09593; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 14:53:54 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980806145354.H9468(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 14:53:54 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: Kees Stravers <pb0aia(a)iaehv.nl>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Old Unix Preservation -- How to save the SysV varients References: <199808052346.BAA21053(a)IAEhv.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199808052346.BAA21053(a)IAEhv.nl>; from Kees Stravers on Thu, Aug 06, 1998 at 01:46:20AM +0200 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Thursday, 6 August 1998 at 1:46:20 +0200, Kees Stravers wrote: > pechter(a)shell.monmouth.com said on Thu, 6 Aug 1998 00:08:07 +0200 (CEST) > pe>One thing about preserving the Unix varients. There's a number of > pe>interesting (lesser known) versions with features that may be > pe>interesting to study. This may be because of my history major > pe>background -- or that I spent too many years in Field Service for > pe>far too many vendors of these boxes. > pe>One example is Masscomp/Concurrent's early RTU which had dual > pe>universes (SysIII-SysV/BSD libraries), DEC-like ASTs and real-time > pe>processes. Concurrent (originally Interdata, Perkin-Elmer) also > pe>had a very nice non virtual memory SysVRel2 called Xelos as well as > pe>Edition VII. > > 8< snip >8 > > Do you have any hardware documentation left on the Masscomps? I've never even *seen* a Masscomp, but "Writing a UNIX Device Driver", by Janet Egan and Thomas Teixeira, based on a Masscomp document. It's possible that if you can find one of them, they could give you a lead. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA25327 for pups-liszt; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:37:25 +1000 (EST) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Wed Aug 12 09:36:42 1998 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (2026(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA25322 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:37:18 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA14600; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 01:36:45 +0200 Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 01:36:42 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Thoughts... In-Reply-To: <199807311344.AA23930(a)world.std.com> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980812013327.13671E-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > < Then start MAKING them! Our great nation of Workers and Peasants has the > < military technology in the world! Let's show those bloodsucking capitali > < that we can make PDP-11s and VAXen better than they ever could! > > They never stopped making them. Mentec has some really fast 11s. (Maybe it's time to drop out of PUPS, Sokolov is here, and for me, I'm not into big old Unix, only pdp-11 stuff...) Anyway, to make the list more complete, Quickware makes even faster pdp-11s last time I looked, and a third player is Strobe Data. So there are still lots of go in the pdp-11 community, I'll bet it will outlive the VAXen. > Mike, take a prozac and chill. It's all that capitalism that is making > all of those old PDP-11s and such available in the first place. This > place is for unix and it's heirs and relations not political ranting. > We can argue better, first, cleanest, purity after we have captured the > code and preserved it from loss. Amen. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA25351 for pups-liszt; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:40:09 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 11 months

Re: The Unix Society

by allisonp＠world.std.com

How about a direct approach. Create UBOS, UBOS spells out to Unix Based Operating Systems. PUPs would then be a sibling as would other potential *nix based OS forums. the key is if you not sure, it goes to UBOS and from there vectored to the best fit forum. Possible sibling forums could be NIX-32 for the 32bit and NIX-16 for the other yet not defined 16bit *nix. there are also 8bit flavors and of course 64bit ones as well. No doubt I'm missing a few. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA19897 for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 06:09:53 +1000 (EST) >From Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> Wed Aug 5 06:09:41 1998 Received: from aiai.ed.ac.uk (eigg.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.41.7]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA19892 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 06:09:47 +1000 (EST) Received: from todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk (todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.105.40]) by aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA08847 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 21:09:42 +0100 (BST) Received: (tfb@localhost) by todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) id VAA11887; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 21:09:41 +0100 Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 21:09:41 +0100 Message-Id: <199808042009.VAA11887(a)todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk> From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: The Unix Society In-Reply-To: <9808030314.AA18496(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> References: <9808030314.AA18496(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.14 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk * Michael Sokolov wrote: >> Keep it to systems which require a UNIX source license, then? > Yes! No no no! This is really bad. We should not try and sit down and say who or what we exclude and who or what we include. There are hundreds of Unix and Unix-related systems that ran or run on all sorts of hardware: trying to define some arbitrary border is just bogus, and is also pretty disturbing in various respects (`you over there, you're running a 4.2BSD-derivative system with lots of non-bell/non-Berkeley code in it on something that isn't even a vax, *you* can't talk to *us* cos you're not pure enough, nah nah nah'). Let's just not stress about this stuff, and let anyone who is interested in older Unixoid systems be involved. The only logical dividing line is the 16-bit/32-bit one -- really the PDP11/bigger system one -- and even that is furry (where does 32v live, or the interdata port, or ?). It's not like the list is suddenly going to get taken over by people trying to talk about Linux or Solaris or something: those poeple have their own lists and are quite happy there. If people ask inappropriate questions they won't get answers (or will get polite pointers to ask somewhere more apropriate). As for name, I still like my own suggestion of `proper unix preservation society', though I can see there may be copyright issues. Most of all, can't we stop all this silly meta-discussion and actually talk about real interesting stuff! Here's a question I'd actually like to know the answer to: have there been ports of Unix or Unix-like systems to machines with non-power-of-2 word sizes or other `strange' (by modern standards) machines? --tim (who's running a 4.2BSD-derivative system with lots of non-bell/non-Berkeley code in it on something that isn't even a Vax. And is also on holiday, so won't be reading this stuff for a while) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA22129 for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:11:20 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Aug 5 09:11:53 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA22124 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:11:16 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA18650 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:11:53 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199808042311.JAA18650(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: A Decision :-) To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:11:53 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Ok, here's the decision (for now). The PUPS mailing list now has the working name: The UNIX Heritage Society. The email address will stay the same for now. The mailing list topics are controlled by its members, so feel free to chat about PDP-11 UNIX, 32-bit UNIX, Unix derived systems, your cat (well, maybe not). I'm happy for chat about systems which don't require UNIX source licences, too. Many people should set up web pages to cover their own particular interest. Mine's at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/ Someone (me?) will set up a web page describing the charter of The UNIX Heritage Society, with pointers to everybody's web page. If the mailing list becomes too diverse, then people are free to set up other mailing lists with more restricted topics. Again, I'll add hyperlinks on the The UNIX Heritage Society web page to the mailing lists. Suggestions for a better name then `The UNIX Heritage Society' can be mailed to me :-) Suggestions for the charter of `The UNIX Heritage Society', or whatever you want to call it, can also be sent to me. I'll add hyperlinks on the The UNIX Heritage Society web page for each suggestion. I'd rather this thing be all-inclusive, rather then exclusive. At the same time, I want people to feel free to set up web/mail resources with more specific aims. For example, the PUPS web pages are going to stay unchanged. Now, as Tim suggested, let's stop going round in circles and actually get back to DOING things :-) Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA22163 for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:20:54 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Aug 5 09:21:28 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA22158 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:20:51 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA18748 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:21:28 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199808042321.JAA18748(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Kirk's 4CD BSD set: status To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:21:28 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk All, Kirk McKusick has updated his web page about his 4CD set of BSD releases at http://www.mckusick.com/csrg/ Status: production is delayed a further week. Unfortuntely, Kirk is just about to go off overseas for three weeks, and won't be back until the end of August. You may place your orders on his web page, but things won't start to happen until the 1st of September. Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA22319 for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:55:31 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Aug 5 09:56:04 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA22311 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:55:27 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA18931 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:56:04 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199808042356.JAA18931(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: TUHS web page: version #0 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:56:04 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk All, The zeroth version of a web page for this all-encompassing group thingy to cover all Unix preservation/development etc is now at: http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/TUHS/ Feel free (if not compelled) to mail me with suggestions, hyperlinks, background artwork etc. Michael, would you be able to knock up a VAX UNIX web page so I could add a hyperlink to it? Thanks, Warren

26 years, 11 months

PUPS, BUPS, BURPS, and other stomach upsets

by norman＠nose.cs.yorku.ca

The recent fuss seems to me to be much overdone, mainly because of a small number of people with strong views and a restless urge to type. Here's my view, which I hold with some strength, but with little religious zeal. The top of Warren's web page about PUPS says the society is `devoted to the preservation of all information related to the versions of Unix that ran on Digital PDPs.' It seems pretty clear to me that his original intent was to collect and keep historic data, not to Promote The One True Unix nor to Support Software That We Approve Of nor to Make Money Fast. (No slur intended on those who do want to do those things.) Certainly that is the basis on which I joined the mailing list, and on which I've contributed the small amount of time I've put in. It makes sense to me that efforts to preserve post-PDP11 Unix systems be coordinated with PUPS, whether that means folding them into the same society or just having several groups that share. I would suggest that a single society (even if run as several distributed pieces) would probably be less work in the long run, and think that `UNIX Heritage Society' is a fine name. (Just plain `UNIX Society' is too broad; it sounds like a duplication of USENIX.) Those who think `heritage' and `preservation' are dirty words are, I think, missing the point; see the paragraph above. All of this is likely to involve more work for someone. I don't know just who has done what to make PUPS work, but it looks to me like the bulk of the work has fallen on Warren; certainly he did the single hardest part, that of getting things started. Those of us who think the society should do more things should be prepared to put our money, labour, and whatnot where our mouths are. In that spirit: I'm not likely to have much time to help out for the next few months, as I'm starting a new job, and just keeping my project to recover the old manuals into machine-readable form will soak up most of my spare cycles. (Apologies to all that the samples and whatnot I'd hoped to put up on the web still aren't up, by the way; winding down my present work commitments and trying to arrange a graceful startup of my new ones has taken a lot more effort than expected.) It may be possible in my new world to help out with some computing resources, e.g. a Canadian mirror of the PUPS archives; I'll try to plan for that in the already-being-planned upheaval of my new world's computing environment. If the master PUPS site is short of resources, e.g. could use another disk or two, I'd be happy to help out with some cash. I encourage others who can help out to speak up. Judging by the amount of mail that has passed through the mailing list recently (almost 5% of an RK05 by my count), there should be some spare energy out there somewhere. It may also be worth while to approach USENIX for support; preserving UNIX heritage is certainly not foreign to them, and their current president has some history of preservation work. Norman Wilson Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA19772 for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 05:24:28 +1000 (EST) >From Neil Johnson <neil(a)skatter.usask.ca> Wed Aug 5 05:24:11 1998 Received: from skatter.USask.Ca (skatter.usask.ca [128.233.14.1]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA19762 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 05:24:19 +1000 (EST) Received: from hydrus.USask.Ca (hydrus.usask.ca [128.233.14.27]) by skatter.USask.Ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA09338; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 13:24:13 -0600 (CST) From: Neil Johnson <neil(a)skatter.usask.ca> Received: (from neil@localhost) by hydrus.USask.Ca (8.7.2/8.7.2) id NAA16324; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 13:24:11 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 13:24:11 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199808041924.NAA16324(a)hydrus.USask.Ca> To: msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: The Unix Society Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I don't like the idea of focusing the group on versions of unix with source licences available for a number of reasons. Expensive source licences are available for new versions of unix. If the limitation is to an inexpensive hobbiest licence then a somewhat arbitrary price has to be set for inexpensive. A second, and more important objection is that we are explicitly excluding users who want to use the free PDP-11 unix binary licences. Finally, users of other vintage unixes with legal, binary only licences would be excluded. Neil Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA19830 for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 05:48:32 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 11 months

Re: The UNIX Heritage Society

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Heritage means: that which may be inherited. I think this is appropriate ^^^ has Heritiage is generally historical in context be it previous or present tense for the future. Preservation in teh case of PDP-11 (and otehr 16bit) was needed or it may have been lost. One assumes the license grantors actually have complete sources. In the case of at least on other OS they had the license but little of the code. < as we have all inherited a wonderful system from Ken and Dennis. In fact < we've inherited the UNIX paradigm, which influences the way we think. True. The key here is there are two types of OSs, retired(not commercially viable or no support) and those that have commercial value. Let us not forget Mike is trying to develop a commercially viable OS that is not free or shareware. Also by and large Mike is in the process of doing what other call archeology. One must resore and understand the structure before building upon it. The patriot stuff, pure poof. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA14295 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 23:47:33 +1000 (EST) >From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Mon Aug 3 23:42:53 1998 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA14290 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 23:47:27 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA17517 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:42:55 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199808031342.JAA17517(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: Extending the cheap SCO src license In-Reply-To: <199808030251.MAA13502(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "Aug 3, 98 12:51:22 pm" To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:42:53 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > > OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bit > > systems. We'd like to get, say, System V as well. > > > > Greg > > After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V > cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have > the crippled System V for the PDP-11. Do any of us really want SysV? One can get that in a free license for unixware or such, as it is, if I am understanding things correctly. > You might be lucky to get System III added to the source license, and separate > binary-only licenses for certain System V systems. That's another battle, tho. Gee, I sense I have stirred up a wee bit of a hornets nest. For the sake of discussion, maybe that is good. What I had originally thought was that it might be possible to include under the PUPS banner (or whatever it is to be called {PUPS is fine to me}), to include orphan unices. Let me suggest that what I mean by orphan unices is a flavor of unix in binary or source that is essentially commercially past history. That would specifically be to keep from camping on SCO's income. What might be considered an orphan unix? One might consider things like the BSD tree to be orphan, as it relates to non-commercial use (one would consider BSDI commercial, but most of the others non-commercial maybe). One might consider something like Coherent to be non-commercial anymore. Although that is not a ``true'' unix, it sure looks and feels the same and quacks very much like a V7 or early SysV. Xenix falls into the same quacks like a duck category. Although Xenix is still used commercially, it may be be time to begin to consider that we might, in due time, aproach SCO to offer a hobby style Xenix license of some sort. I would not expect them to offer source, although that might be workable after time. One might consider the old RT and PS/2 unices (AOS and AIX 1 and 2) to be orphanware. I am sure there are others. Perhaps even the 3Bx kind of thing could be suitably binary hobby licensed. I would have a hard time imagining that SCO would consider the old ATT boxes any sort of a moneymaker these days. Where SCO would feel that we are too close to home, then maybe only a binary license of some sort would be all that we could collectively expect. What about something like 386BSD? That began in the 4.3BSD era if I am reading things corectly, and it sure walks and quacks like the real thing. These kinds of things, I would think, are of merit to keep archives of, for the purposes and goals that we collectively seem be be heading towards. Is this reasonable? Just thinking out loud..... If nothing else, the discussion is good..... Bob Keys Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA14465 for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 00:16:35 +1000 (EST) >From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Tue Aug 4 00:11:52 1998 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA14460 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 00:16:29 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA17764; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:11:54 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199808031411.KAA17764(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: The UNIX Heritage Society In-Reply-To: <199808031311.AA10670(a)world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Aug 3, 98 09:11:02 am" To: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:11:52 -0400 (EDT) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > Preservation in teh case of PDP-11 (and otehr 16bit) was needed or it may > have been lost. One assumes the license grantors actually have complete > sources. In the case of at least on other OS they had the license but > little of the code. This is a most interesting point, and one we all need to consider. I will interpret from Allison's remarks that CP/M may be being referred to here. In that case, it was mostly all lost sources, and only a little was found (and a lot of leftovers kept by the early hacker types). It would NOT have been possible to recreate or resurrect it without such help. The one thing that I have noted in the 28 years I have played with computers (only the last 20 seriously), is that sources tend to get very lost in the passage of time. Alas, if you try to recreate or resurrect the old early boxes, you are lost without the tidbits of sources, binaries, and OS notes that seem to be all to vaporware, anymore. So much of it is NOT kept around by the companies. And, many of the companies are bellyup, or have passed through so many hands, that the original materials are long forgotten or gone. Somehow, we need to collectively keep enough of the bits and pieces so that down the road, others may be able to see what it was actually all about. I heartily applaud the efforts of all the various groups like the PUPS, and the efforts of folks like Warren and Kirk to keep the unix flavors alive. > The key here is there are two types of OSs, retired(not commercially > viable or no support) and those that have commercial value. I would expect that our collective interests center on the former, even though some/many of us may dabble in it commercially/professionally. Bob Keys Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA17033 for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 12:23:27 +1000 (EST) >From Joerg Micheel <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> Tue Aug 4 12:14:43 1998 Received: from nighthawk.iti.gov.sg (nighthawk.iti.gov.sg [192.122.131.51]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA17028 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 12:23:19 +1000 (EST) Received: (from mailer@localhost) by nighthawk.iti.gov.sg (8.6.11/8.6.11) id KAA20343; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 10:34:48 +0800 Received: from mailhub.iti.gov.sg(192.122.132.132) by nighthawk.iti.gov.sg via smap (V1.3) id sma020334; Tue Aug 4 10:34:31 1998 Received: (from joerg@localhost) by iti.gov.sg (8.8.8/8.8.5) id KAA29944; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 10:14:43 +0800 (SGT) Message-ID: <19980804101443.54947(a)krdl.org.sg> Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 10:14:43 +0800 From: Joerg Micheel <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Extending the cheap SCO src license References: <199808030251.MAA13502(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <199808031342.JAA17517(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <199808031342.JAA17517(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>; from User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:42:53AM -0400 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:42:53AM -0400, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote: > > After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V > > cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have > > the crippled System V for the PDP-11. > > Do any of us really want SysV? One can get that in a free license for unixware > or such, as it is, if I am understanding things correctly. Sure, try writing a driver or some stuff that involves kernel variables - and you are stuck. Actually, this reminds me that Sun did a large buy-out for System V and the procedure for getting Solaris kernel sources has become dramatically more easy. They might still send it to you for a nominal fee (last time DM 4,600), as long as you use it for non-commercial purposes (e.g. universities, research institutes). Anybody more detailed information on this ? Joerg ---- Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 7705577 Kent Ridge Digital Labs (pron: curdle) Fax: +65 7795966 11 Science Park Road Pager: +65 96016020 Singapore Science Park II Plan: Troubleshooting ATM 117685 Singapore Networks and Applications Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA17300 for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:15:06 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Aug 4 14:15:23 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA17295 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:15:01 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA17823; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:15:23 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199808040415.OAA17823(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Extending the cheap SCO src license To: rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:15:23 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199808031342.JAA17517(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> from "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" at "Aug 3, 98 09:42:53 am" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys: > Do any of us really want SysV? Not me :-) > Where SCO would feel that we are too close to home, then maybe only a > binary license of some sort would be all that we could collectively expect. > What about something like 386BSD? That began in the 4.3BSD era if I am I've got 386BSD 0.1 sources, but no binaries. > reading things corectly, and it sure walks and quacks like the real thing. > These kinds of things, I would think, are of merit to keep archives of, > for the purposes and goals that we collectively seem be be heading towards. I collect most anything :-) UNIX, Unix, [1234]BSD, Minix etc etc. Don't really want System III or V though, or Slowaris. Ciao, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17431 for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 15:10:08 +1000 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Aug 4 15:09:47 1998 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA17426 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 15:10:02 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id OAA16006; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:39:49 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id OAA00313; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:39:47 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980804143947.M25942(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:39:47 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Extending the cheap SCO src license References: <199808030251.MAA13502(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <199808031342.JAA17517(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199808031342.JAA17517(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>; from User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:42:53AM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Monday, 3 August 1998 at 9:42:53 -0400, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote: >>> OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bit >>> systems. We'd like to get, say, System V as well. >>> >>> Greg >> >> After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V >> cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have >> the crippled System V for the PDP-11. > > Do any of us really want SysV? One can get that in a free license for unixware > or such, as it is, if I am understanding things correctly. You don't get the source with UnixWare. And yes, I can conceive that the sources of old versions of System V could be of interest, if only for the computer etymologist. I have a Tandem LXN (68020 based SMP machine, about 11 years old) which ran an interesting version of System V.2 and V.3.0. While I was still at Tandem, I backed up the last versions of the source (in Austin TX), and unfortunately I didn't discover that the backup failed until I got back to Germany. AFAIK the sources are lost forever: they scrapped the machine shortly after. >> You might be lucky to get System III added to the source license, and separate >> binary-only licenses for certain System V systems. That's another battle, tho. > > Gee, I sense I have stirred up a wee bit of a hornets nest. For the sake of > discussion, maybe that is good. > > What I had originally thought was that it might be possible to include under > the PUPS banner (or whatever it is to be called {PUPS is fine to me}), to > include orphan unices. Let me suggest that what I mean by orphan unices is > a flavor of unix in binary or source that is essentially commercially past > history. That would specifically be to keep from camping on SCO's > income. In principle, not a bad idea. > What might be considered an orphan unix? One might consider things > like the BSD tree to be orphan, as it relates to non-commercial use > (one would consider BSDI commercial, but most of the others > non-commercial maybe). Well, there are plenty of people actively working on the BSD tree. I wouldn't consider it orphan. > One might consider something like Coherent to be non-commercial anymore. > Although that is not a ``true'' unix, it sure looks and feels the same > and quacks very much like a V7 or early SysV. Xenix falls into the same > quacks like a duck category. Although Xenix is still used commercially, > it may be be time to begin to consider that we might, in due time, aproach > SCO to offer a hobby style Xenix license of some sort. I think you would run into extreme resistance inside SCO at the moment, more than you would for, say, System V Release 1. Although it's obsolete, it wasn't that long ago (3 years?) that it was earning more money for SCO than Open Deathtrap was. > I would not expect them to offer source, although that might be > workable after time. One might consider the old RT and PS/2 unices > (AOS and AIX 1 and 2) to be orphanware. I am sure there are others. > Perhaps even the 3Bx kind of thing could be suitably binary hobby > licensed. I would have a hard time imagining that SCO would > consider the old ATT boxes any sort of a moneymaker these days. > Where SCO would feel that we are too close to home, then maybe only > a binary license of some sort would be all that we could > collectively expect. What would you do with a binary license. > What about something like 386BSD? That began in the 4.3BSD era if I > am reading things corectly, and it sure walks and quacks like the > real thing. These kinds of things, I would think, are of merit to > keep archives of, for the purposes and goals that we collectively > seem be be heading towards. FWIW, 386BSD is available in source form. Dr. Dobbs still has a CD-ROM that you can buy. But 386BSD also evolved into FreeBSD, NetBSD and OpenBSD, all of which are still alive, kicking and further developing. Anything but orphans. I'm writing this on a FreeBSD machine. > If nothing else, the discussion is good..... Definitely. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA18632 for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 22:56:43 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 11 months

Re: The Unix Society

by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu

Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes: > If having a source license was a requirement for the systems we cover, > then I'd say this was pretty reasonable. It is, isn't it? Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12785 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:45:30 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Aug 3 13:45:52 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA12780 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:45:26 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA15453 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:45:52 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199808030345.NAA15453(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: What to do now with PUPS To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:45:52 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <9808030315.AA18511(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Aug 2, 98 11:15:15 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Michael Sokolov: > As I have said all along, PUPS's pre-hung-up'ness on PDP-11s has been > the source of a lot of grief for us the VAX lovers. It is the reason why > SCO's license talks so much about PDP-11s and the reason I have had so much > trouble obtaining the software I need, since everyone believes that the SCO > license is limited to 16-bit toys. Of course it is not, and in fact it is > the reason why Marshall Kirk McKusick is releasing the CD-ROMs with CSRG's > code (80% of which is 32-bit), but thanks to PUPS's pre-hung-up'ness on > PDP-11s, try to explain this to people! > > Thanks Daemon the gang is finally beginning to realize that UNIX(R) runs > on more than just PDP-11s. > > Michael Sokolov I'd just like to comment on Michael's e-mail, just for the record. The PDP-11 UNIX Preservation Society was, at one point, just me. I'd had help from Steven Schultz, Tim Shoppa, John Wilson and Torsten Hippe, and my personal goal was to get copies of 6th and 7th Edition Unix, for historical reasons. Since then, people with similar interests have accumulated. We've set up a mailing list, web page etc. Steven and I took months to lobby SCO to make source licenses available. We started in late '95/early '96. Again, we were driven by our own personal goals of making cheap licenses for PDP-11 UNIXes available. We were also guided by the web-based survey, see http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/pdpquiz_sum.html, which showed an awful lot more interest for PDP-11 UNIXes than 32-bit UNIXes. Yes, PUPS has been hung up on PDP-11s. There's no denying that. It's a result of the personal drives that Steven, I, and the other active members of the mailing list have. If we have caused grief to the VAX users, it was unintentional. The license that we negotiated with SCO was based as much on our personal goals as on pragmatics. During the negotiations, it became apparent that: + There was a substantial bloc at SCO who didn't want ANY license + For the rest, Research Editions 1 to 7 was ok + 32V was dubious: most people didn't want this licensed + System III was also dubious + System V was definitely right out: nobody wanted this licensed The fact that we got 32V on the SCO license was, in my opinion, damn lucky, even though I pushed and pushed and pushed for this to be included. SCO, for their part, probably feel that they have limited the `damage' by only licensing the 16-bit systems, and 32V (grudgingly). Now why was I pushing 32V so hard? Because I knew it would open the path for CSRG to release the BSD flavours. This is the ONLY reason why I fought so hard for it to be included in the license. Hopefully this has filled in some of the background on the behind-the-scenes work. I agree that, up to now, the effort has concentrated on the 16-bit systems. I knew that, by getting 32V into the license, it would give scope for the 32-bit systems. At the same time, there was NO WAY that SCO would have licensed any other 32-bit system. The license we have reflects SCO's legal concerns as much as the negotiators' PDP preference. However, 32V is licensed, and Kirk will be selling the CRSG BSD releases on a 4-CD set next week. A fair proportion of PDP-11 UNIX history has been saved. Now it's time for those with a preference for other systems to extend what has been achieved. Go for it! Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12836 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:03:57 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Aug 3 14:04:19 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA12831 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:03:53 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA15507 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:04:19 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199808030404.OAA15507(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: The UNIX Heritage Society To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:04:19 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <19980803125616.F25574(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 12:56:16 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Greg Lehey: Michael writes: > > No, no, PLEASE get rid of that "preservation" stigma. It's like a brand > > on a slave, a constant reminder of limits and constraints. Terms like > > "preservation", "historical", "heritage", "primordial", "ancient", etc. all > > suggest something of purely historical value. This is EXTREMELY insulting > > to those of us for whom True UNIX(R) is the ONLY multiuser operating > > system. > > I would have a problem being a "Patriot". > > Greg Heritage means: that which may be inherited. I think this is appropriate, as we have all inherited a wonderful system from Ken and Dennis. In fact, we've inherited the UNIX paradigm, which influences the way we think. My dictionary says a patriot is one who is zealous for his country's freedom or rights, and a zealot is an uncompromising or extreme partisan or fanatic. I would also have a problem being a "Patriot". If I was uncompromising, we would have no cheap SCO license. I don't think we need to retro-fit a name into the PUPS acronym. I'm still in favour of The UNIX Heritage Society. For those unaccustomed to the amount of traffic on the PUPS list, don't forget that you can switch to the digest version. echo 'subscribe pups-digest' | mail majordomo(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12985 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:54:42 +1000 (EST) >From Joerg Micheel <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> Mon Aug 3 14:00:42 1998 Received: from nighthawk.iti.gov.sg (nighthawk.iti.gov.sg [192.122.131.51]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA12980 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:54:35 +1000 (EST) Received: (from mailer@localhost) by nighthawk.iti.gov.sg (8.6.11/8.6.11) id MAA12622; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:20:46 +0800 Received: from mailhub.iti.gov.sg(192.122.132.132) by nighthawk.iti.gov.sg via smap (V1.3) id sma012619; Mon Aug 3 12:20:28 1998 Received: (from joerg@localhost) by iti.gov.sg (8.8.8/8.8.5) id MAA04106; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:00:43 +0800 (SGT) Message-ID: <19980803120042.27955(a)krdl.org.sg> Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:00:42 +0800 From: Joerg Micheel <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: The Unix Society References: <9808030331.AA18573(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <9808030331.AA18573(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 11:31:14PM -0400 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Mikhail, On Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 11:31:14PM -0400, Michael Sokolov wrote: > > Do you get it know? Probably not. Oh well. Last time I met Greg he was still able to read, although he needs glasses already. I think that his glasses actually do a very good job since he was figuring that the license explicitely blocks access to System V and friends (Please read your own email again). The thing is that there are people out there who really enjoy the PDP-11 as a smart machine. Those people presumably have written code for this machine in assembler. Another group of people is interested in the early roots of unix. The PDP-11 in that case serves as a host for this interest. But the historic interest does not stop at the hardware of the PDP-11, it is rather an interest in the full life cycle of the OS. 32V, while important, is really a hack rather than a 32bit port of the UNIX or BSD operating system. Those people who make statements about 32bit UNIX not being available are very likely aware of this fact, either because they where there at the time this happend, or, like myself, have devoured every interesting UNIX book around and have also come across Peter H. Salus' A quater century of UNIX. You might find it interesting to read, too. With respect to PUPS I do understand that we are interested in the history of UNIX and that the term Warren coined fits exactly our idea. There is nothing wrong with renaming PUPS but leave the email alias as it is. Those interested in the history of the society (we are getting recursive on history by now) can read on the Web Page that we originally dealt with the Preservation of the PDP-11 UNIX only. Regards, Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 7705577 Kent Ridge Digital Labs (pron: curdle) Fax: +65 7795966 11 Science Park Road Pager: +65 96016020 Singapore Science Park II Plan: Troubleshooting ATM 117685 Singapore Networks and Applications Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA13010 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 15:00:35 +1000 (EST) >From Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com> Mon Aug 3 15:00:18 1998 Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA13005 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 15:00:29 +1000 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id BAA09014; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 01:00:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA11935; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 22:00:18 -0700 Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 22:00:18 -0700 (PST) From: Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com> To: PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: The Unix Society In-Reply-To: <199808022335.JAA12929(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <Pine.SGI.3.95.980802215441.8525C-100000(a)world.std.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, 3 Aug 1998, Warren Toomey wrote: > Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste > thing. I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven, > Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these systems. > > We need a sub-committee to come up with a new name :-) My next suggestion is > /The UNIX Heritage Society/i I seem to recall a direct quote of either Thompson or Ritchie saying that they'd intended to use the name "Unix" instead of "UNIX" but that is what the OS was trademarked with by the Bell Labs lawyers. It may have been on one of their personal web pages that I read it. -brian. --- Brian "JARAI" Chase | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ | VAXZilla LIVES!!! Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA14184 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 23:11:15 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 11 months

Re: The Unix Society

by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu

Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> writes: > OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bis > systems. You still don't get it. WRONG! Quoting from the license text: > 3. LICENSED SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS > > The SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS to which SCO grants rights under this > Agreement are restricted to the following UNIX Operating Systems, > including SUCCESSOR OPERATING SYSTEMs, that operate on the 16-Bit > PDP-11 CPU and early versions of the 32-Bit UNIX Operating System ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > with specific exclusion of UNIX System V and successor operating > systems: > > 16-Bit UNIX Editions 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 > 32-bit 32V ^^^^^^^^^^^ Do you get it know? Probably not. Oh well. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12732 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:42:26 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 11 months

Re: The Unix Society

by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu

Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> writes: > [...] an SCO licence for 16 bit UNIX. If we > do it now, there will never be a license for 32 bit UNIX. Excuse me, sir, I have to make a point here. The SCO license _DOES_ cover 32-bit UNIX(R), namely 32V! 32V is the first version of UNIX for 32- bit machines aka VAXen, and it's the mother of EVERYTHING known today as West Coast UNIX, from 3BSD to the freebies, whether for VAXen or other 32- bit CPUs. As I have said all along, PUPS's pre-hung-up'ness on PDP-11s has been the source of a lot of grief for us the VAX lovers. It is the reason why SCO's license talks so much about PDP-11s and the reason I have had so much trouble obtaining the software I need, since everyone believes that the SCO license is limited to 16-bit toys. Of course it is not, and in fact it is the reason why Marshall Kirk McKusick is releasing the CD-ROMs with CSRG's code (80% of which is 32-bit), but thanks to PUPS's pre-hung-up'ness on PDP-11s, try to explain this to people! Thanks Daemon the gang is finally beginning to realize that UNIX(R) runs on more than just PDP-11s. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12458 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:15:14 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Aug 3 13:15:35 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA12453 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:15:10 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA15369 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:15:35 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199808030315.NAA15369(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Extending the cheap SCO src license To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:15:35 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <19980803123629.E25574(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 12:36:29 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Greg Lehey: > > After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V > > cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have > > the crippled System V for the PDP-11. > > Yet. What did the situation look like for the Seventh Edition 5 years > ago? I was just saying we shouldn't accept the status quo, not that > we should go tilting at windmills. > Greg I agree that we should continue to lobby SCO, and more importantly so now that we have a foothold. I'm just pointing out the current `reality', but I'm sure it will change over time. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12485 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:16:35 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Aug 3 13:16:57 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA12480 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:16:32 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA15399 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:16:57 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199808030316.NAA15399(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: The Unix Society To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:16:57 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <9808030312.AA18488(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Aug 2, 98 11:12:49 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Michael Sokolov: > Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes: > > Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste > > thing. > > It is absolutely crucial, since it emphasizes that we are talking about > the one single system named UNIX, rather than any of its teenage "free" > clones. If having a source license was a requirement for the systems we cover, then I'd say this was pretty reasonable. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12572 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:26:33 +1000 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Aug 3 13:26:16 1998 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA12559 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:26:26 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA12218; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:56:16 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id MAA25780; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:56:16 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980803125616.F25574(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:56:16 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: The Unix Society References: <9808030314.AA18492(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <9808030314.AA18492(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 11:14:16PM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 23:14:16 -0400, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes: >> If this is the case, the "Preservation" part of PUPS is OK, since >> what we are trying to do is preserve the use of this strain of >> system software. > > No, no, PLEASE get rid of that "preservation" stigma. It's like a brand > on a slave, a constant reminder of limits and constraints. Terms like > "preservation", "historical", "heritage", "primordial", "ancient", etc. all > suggest something of purely historical value. This is EXTREMELY insulting > to those of us for whom True UNIX(R) is the ONLY multiuser operating > system. I would have a problem being a "Patriot". Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12628 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:30:47 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 11 months

Re: The Unix Society

by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu

Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes: > I'd disagree with that last sentence, as it excludes System V. Yes, you are right. > Keep it to systems which require a UNIX source license, then? Yes! Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12448 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:14:50 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 11 months

The Unix Society

by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu

Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes: > I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven, > Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these > systems. Yes! However, later you write: > My next suggestion is > /The UNIX Heritage Society/i Nee, see below. David C. Jenner <djenner(a)halcyon.com> writes: > If this is the case, the "Preservation" part of PUPS is OK, since > what we are trying to do is preserve the use of this strain of > system software. No, no, PLEASE get rid of that "preservation" stigma. It's like a brand on a slave, a constant reminder of limits and constraints. Terms like "preservation", "historical", "heritage", "primordial", "ancient", etc. all suggest something of purely historical value. This is EXTREMELY insulting to those of us for whom True UNIX(R) is the ONLY multiuser operating system. > Primordial Unix Preservation Society. Same problem. Why not Proper UNIX(R) Patriot Society? > (I really don't want to change my "pups" email alias!) I agree. Hence my suggestion above. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12441 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:14:13 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 11 months

Re: The Unix Society

by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu

Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes: > Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste > thing. It is absolutely crucial, since it emphasizes that we are talking about the one single system named UNIX, rather than any of its teenage "free" clones. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12427 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:13:47 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 11 months

Re: The Unix Society

by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu

Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> wrote: > While I disagree with Michael's idea of total world domination by Vaxen > :-), I believe such a society will be composed of a multitude of > different beliefs, ideas, sub-goals and drives. So please bear this in > mind when mailing to the mailing list!!! Oh, I'm not saying that VAXen should dominate the mailing list or the society, I'm simply saying that my project is to turn them from "retrocomputing" into a fully competitive UNIX platform. > My main sub-goal is to provide a home for the PDP-11 stuff. I don't yet > have the disk space for all the other Unix platforms. Keep in mind, though, that the UNIX(R) mainstream is PDP-11 _AND_ VAX. > Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the > preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present. > I nominate the name The Unix Society and > Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding > using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective. I personally think it's a very bad idea to extend the society to cover freebies. Let's keep it limited to software that requires an SCO or equivalent license. Why? Because otherwise it loses its identity. You can't cover all UNIX and "Unix" in the world. Huge organizations like USENIX already exist for this purpose. I believe the purpose of the society should be to provide a home for the homeless. Here is what I mean by that. People using "free Unices" already have scores of mailing lists and newsgroups available to them. The only ones who are always left out are the poor patriots of True Licensed UNIX(R). So far PUPS has been the only possible home for them. Why not have a Proper UNIX(R) Patriot Society which will do the same thing PUPS does now (provide a central clearinghouse for all licensed UNIX(R), keep the central database of SCO license holders, discuss licensing issues), but without restricting it to PDP-11s or to mere preservation? I don't think we need a huge society with chapters and subchapters to cover every possible use of every possible OS. People who want to use a particular OS in a particular way should have their own mailing lists to discuss really specific issues like hardware, etc. That's what I will do for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus when it actually sees the light of day. (For now it has a closed consortium. My experience has been that in such early stages of development keeping discussions on a public list leads to nothing except accusations of "vaporware" and flame wars.) PUPS should be a central clearinghouse for licensed UNIX(R), nothing more. Its scope should be exactly equal to the scope of the SCO license. Just my two bits. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12041 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:30:19 +1000 (EST) >From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Mon Aug 3 11:28:56 1998 Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (mgate.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12036 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:30:13 +1000 (EST) Received: from halcyon.com (blv-lx103-ip27.nwnexus.net [206.63.41.77]) by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA14923; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 18:29:44 -0700 Message-ID: <35C51258.2C635E5A(a)halcyon.com> Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 18:28:56 -0700 From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Reply-To: djenner(a)halcyon.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: The Unix Society References: <9808030052.AA18331(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I think he has a point here: Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers. In fact, an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license. If this is the case, the "Preservation" part of PUPS is OK, since what we are trying to do is preserve the use of this strain of system software. As to the first P, if not PDP(-11), then what it should refer to is the original strain of Unix--the Primordial Unix. Hence: Primordial Unix Preservation Society. (I really don't want to change my "pups" email alias!) Dave Michael Sokolov wrote: > > Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> wrote: > > While I disagree with Michael's idea of total world domination by Vaxen > > :-), I believe such a society will be composed of a multitude of > > different beliefs, ideas, sub-goals and drives. So please bear this in > > mind when mailing to the mailing list!!! > > Oh, I'm not saying that VAXen should dominate the mailing list or the > society, I'm simply saying that my project is to turn them from > "retrocomputing" into a fully competitive UNIX platform. > > > My main sub-goal is to provide a home for the PDP-11 stuff. I don't yet > > have the disk space for all the other Unix platforms. > > Keep in mind, though, that the UNIX(R) mainstream is PDP-11 _AND_ VAX. > > > Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the > > preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present. > > I nominate the name The Unix Society > > and > > > Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding > > using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective. > > I personally think it's a very bad idea to extend the society to cover > freebies. Let's keep it limited to software that requires an SCO or > equivalent license. Why? Because otherwise it loses its identity. You can't > cover all UNIX and "Unix" in the world. Huge organizations like USENIX > already exist for this purpose. I believe the purpose of the society should > be to provide a home for the homeless. Here is what I mean by that. People > using "free Unices" already have scores of mailing lists and newsgroups > available to them. The only ones who are always left out are the poor > patriots of True Licensed UNIX(R). So far PUPS has been the only possible > home for them. > > Why not have a Proper UNIX(R) Patriot Society which will do the same > thing PUPS does now (provide a central clearinghouse for all licensed > UNIX(R), keep the central database of SCO license holders, discuss > licensing issues), but without restricting it to PDP-11s or to mere > preservation? I don't think we need a huge society with chapters and > subchapters to cover every possible use of every possible OS. People who > want to use a particular OS in a particular way should have their own > mailing lists to discuss really specific issues like hardware, etc. That's > what I will do for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus when it actually sees the light of > day. (For now it has a closed consortium. My experience has been that in > such early stages of development keeping discussions on a public list leads > to nothing except accusations of "vaporware" and flame wars.) PUPS should > be a central clearinghouse for licensed UNIX(R), nothing more. Its scope > should be exactly equal to the scope of the SCO license. > > Just my two bits. > > Sincerely, > Michael Sokolov > Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) > ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12074 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:43:46 +1000 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Aug 3 11:43:38 1998 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12069 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:43:41 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA11880; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:13:38 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id LAA25458; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:13:38 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980803111338.W21892(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:13:38 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: djenner(a)halcyon.com, Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: The Unix Society References: <9808030052.AA18331(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> <35C51258.2C635E5A(a)halcyon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <35C51258.2C635E5A(a)halcyon.com>; from David C. Jenner on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 06:28:56PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 18:28:56 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote: > I think he has a point here: > > Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO > (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers. In fact, > an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors > (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license. That's rather conservative, isn't it? If we had done that previously, there would never now have been an SCO licence for 16 bit UNIX. If we do it now, there will never be a license for 32 bit UNIX. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12100 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:50:20 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Aug 3 11:50:42 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12095 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:50:17 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA13307 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:50:42 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199808030150.LAA13307(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: The Unix Heritage Society To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:50:42 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <19980803111338.W21892(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 11:13:38 am" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Greg Lehey: > On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 18:28:56 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote: > > I think he has a point here: > > > > Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO > > (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers. In fact, > > an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors > > (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license. > > That's rather conservative, isn't it? If we had done that previously, > there would never now have been an SCO licence for 16 bit UNIX. If we > do it now, there will never be a license for 32 bit UNIX. Keep it to systems which require a UNIX source license, then? Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12118 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:53:44 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Aug 3 11:54:06 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12113 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:53:41 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA13334; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:54:06 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199808030154.LAA13334(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: The Unix Heritage Society To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:54:06 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199808030150.LAA13307(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "Aug 3, 98 11:50:42 am" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Warren Toomey: > Keep it to systems which require a UNIX source license, then? And lobby SCO for more encompassing cheap UNIX source licenses too. I forgot to add this sentence. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12252 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:33:19 +1000 (EST) >From Joerg Micheel <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> Mon Aug 3 12:23:17 1998 Received: from nighthawk.iti.gov.sg (nighthawk.iti.gov.sg [192.122.131.51]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA12246 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:33:10 +1000 (EST) Received: (from mailer@localhost) by nighthawk.iti.gov.sg (8.6.11/8.6.11) id KAA11852; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:43:19 +0800 Received: from mailhub.iti.gov.sg(192.122.132.132) by nighthawk.iti.gov.sg via smap (V1.3) id sma011850; Mon Aug 3 10:43:02 1998 Received: (from joerg@localhost) by iti.gov.sg (8.8.8/8.8.5) id KAA00392; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:23:17 +0800 (SGT) Message-ID: <19980803102317.65086(a)krdl.org.sg> Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:23:17 +0800 From: Joerg Micheel <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Cc: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, grog(a)begemot.org Subject: Re: The Unix Society References: <19980803085553.H21892(a)freebie.lemis.com> <199808022335.JAA12929(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <19980803092452.N21892(a)freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19980803092452.N21892(a)freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:24:52AM +0930 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:24:52AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Monday, 3 August 1998 at 9:35:17 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > > In article by Greg Lehey: > >>> Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the > >>> preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present. > >>> I nominate the name The Unix Society ... > >>> Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding > >>> using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective. > >> > >> I find the spelling "Unix" looks like the kind of mistake that > >> people make when they're not aware of these niceties, so I'd prefer > >> not to use it. > >> > >> More generally, though, there's nothing in the name that suggests > >> anything to do with the history of the system. For all it says to the > >> outside world, it's a new competitor to USENIX. > > > > Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste > > thing. I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven, > > Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these systems. > > > > We need a sub-committee to come up with a new name :-) My next suggestion is > > /The UNIX Heritage Society/i > > Sounds a lot better. Time for some other comments, when the rest of > the world wakes up. Awake! I fully agree with all of Greg's statements. Btw. the original way of writing UNIX was actually unix. Small caps. Of course, using troff you could take advantage of scaling fonts and say \s-2UNIX\s+2. I'm not sure about the feeling of dmr and colleagues with respect to UNIX, but I remember him having a heavy disrespect for STREAMS as compared to streams. The thing is that with email when saying STREAMS you actually shout, which non of us intend to. Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 7705577 Kent Ridge Digital Labs (pron: curdle) Fax: +65 7795966 11 Science Park Road Pager: +65 96016020 Singapore Science Park II Plan: Troubleshooting ATM 117685 Singapore Networks and Applications Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12295 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:43:43 +1000 (EST) >From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Mon Aug 3 12:41:58 1998 Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (mgate.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA12290 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:43:37 +1000 (EST) Received: from halcyon.com (blv-lx103-ip27.nwnexus.net [206.63.41.77]) by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA15396; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 19:42:50 -0700 Message-ID: <35C52376.7A546F4(a)halcyon.com> Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 19:41:58 -0700 From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Reply-To: djenner(a)halcyon.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> CC: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: The Unix Society References: <9808030052.AA18331(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> <35C51258.2C635E5A(a)halcyon.com> <19980803111338.W21892(a)freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I don't think I'm saying what you think I said? I not trying to restrict it to nothing, or even not 32-bit. But then it's Sunday night here, and Monday morning there, so maybe I'm not clear about what I said!? Dave Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 18:28:56 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote: > > I think he has a point here: > > > > Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO > > (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers. In fact, > > an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors > > (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license. > > That's rather conservative, isn't it? If we had done that previously, > there would never now have been an SCO licence for 16 bit UNIX. If we > do it now, there will never be a license for 32 bit UNIX. > > Greg Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12306 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:45:16 +1000 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Aug 3 12:44:55 1998 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA12301 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:45:11 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA12075; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:15:01 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id MAA25665; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:14:56 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980803121455.D25574(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:14:55 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: djenner(a)halcyon.com Cc: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: The Unix Society References: <9808030052.AA18331(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> <35C51258.2C635E5A(a)halcyon.com> <19980803111338.W21892(a)freebie.lemis.com> <35C52376.7A546F4(a)halcyon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <35C52376.7A546F4(a)halcyon.com>; from David C. Jenner on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 07:41:58PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 19:41:58 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote: > I don't think I'm saying what you think I said? I not trying to > restrict it to nothing, or even not 32-bit. > > But then it's Sunday night here, and Monday morning there, so maybe > I'm not clear about what I said!? > > Greg Lehey wrote: >> >> On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 18:28:56 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote: >>> I think he has a point here: >>> >>> Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO >>> (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers. In fact, >>> an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors >>> (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license. OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bis systems. We'd like to get, say, System V as well. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12348 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:51:00 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Aug 3 12:51:22 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA12343 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:50:56 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA13502 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:51:22 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199808030251.MAA13502(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Extending the cheap SCO src license To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:51:22 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <19980803121455.D25574(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 12:14:55 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Greg Lehey: > OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bit > systems. We'd like to get, say, System V as well. > > Greg After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have the crippled System V for the PDP-11. You might be lucky to get System III added to the source license, and separate binary-only licenses for certain System V systems. That's another battle, tho. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12393 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:06:41 +1000 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Aug 3 13:06:29 1998 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA12388 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:06:37 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA12131; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:36:30 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id MAA25734; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:36:29 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980803123629.E25574(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:36:29 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Extending the cheap SCO src license References: <19980803121455.D25574(a)freebie.lemis.com> <199808030251.MAA13502(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199808030251.MAA13502(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 12:51:22PM +1000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Monday, 3 August 1998 at 12:51:22 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Greg Lehey: >> OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bit >> systems. We'd like to get, say, System V as well. > > After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V > cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have > the crippled System V for the PDP-11. Yet. What did the situation look like for the Seventh Edition 5 years ago? > You might be lucky to get System III added to the source license, > and separate binary-only licenses for certain System V > systems. That's another battle, tho. Sure. I was just saying we shouldn't accept the status quo, not that we should go tilting at windmills. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12418 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:12:22 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 11 months

Re: Thoughts on vaxen....

by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu

"User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> wrote: > What should one look for in a VAX? > > Say I was walking along through our state surplus agency (and I do that > regularly these days, since all kinds of neato unicy goodies are popping > up from a lot of folks going to NT toys), what kind of parts and pieces > would I need to put together a minimal VAX, suited to some flavor of > homegrown 32V/3BSD/4BSD, etc. > [...] > So, what parts by name and number should I keep an eye out for, so > that enough of something might be cobbled together to work? Basically, you need a box that says "VAX" on it. :-) Now, there are all kinds of different VAXen. If you want one that's capable of running something other than VMS, you have to be really careful. 32V, 3BSD, and 4.0BSD run on the original VAX-11/780 ONLY. There is a VERY low probability of you (or me) ever finding one. 4.1BSD and 4.2BSD extend this to 11/750 and 11/730, respectively, but these are still very big and scarce beasts. If you are a REAL VAX patriot (one for whom VAXen are the ONLY computers), none of this should matter to you anyway, since versions of UNIX before 4.3BSD are unfit for production use on ARPA Internet (the ones before 4.2BSD lack any networking whatsoever, and 4.2BSD lacks DNS). If your OS of choice is 4.3BSD, 4.3BSD-Tahoe, or 4.3BSD-Reno, you are in a much better shape. All of them have kernel support for MicroVAX II, and Reno (and possibly Tahoe) has support for MicroVAX III. It's still very rudimentary, though. I personally haven't been able to get it booted yet! Seeing how much work remains to be done to get Berkeley UNIX running on MicroVAXen, I have decided to take a crack at it myself. I am actively working on extending the VAX hardware support in 4.3BSD to MicroVAXen and everything else not currently supported. My goal is to support everything from 11/780 to 10000. Total world VAX domination! This is very long-term, though, and you probably want something sooner. When I was faced with a pressing need to get one of my VAXen up and running in May, my solution was (and still is) to run Ultrix. True, not having the sources is VERY frustrating, and some DECisms like subsets, setld, BIND/Hesiod, etc. really piss me off, but presently this is the closest you can get to True VAX UNIX(R) that runs on something you or I can get our hands on. (A note for those who subscribe both to this list and to port-vax(a)netbsd.org. PLEASE don't advertise your freebie toy here. Fortunately, this list is for LICENSED UNIX(R).) If you want to assemble your VAX from parts, first realize that some of them (BabyVAXen in my terminology) consist of a single system board. On the other end of the spectrum there are huge beasts. Although they do consist of a myriad of boards, they are so specialized that you are very unlikely to ever find a board for one laying separately. The only VAXen that one can realistically build from parts are Q-bus ones. To build one, you need a Q- bus enclosure with a Q22-bus backplane, a Q-bus VAX CPU (KA6xx), and, unless your CPU has on-board Ethernet and DSSI, Q-bus disk and tape controllers and a Q-bus Ethernet interface (DEQNA or DELQA). Of course, you also need the disk and tape drives themselves. Good luck! Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA09408 for pups-liszt; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 21:18:19 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sun Aug 2 21:18:34 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA09403 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 21:18:14 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA11148 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 21:18:34 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199808021118.VAA11148(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: The Unix Society To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 21:18:34 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present. I nominate the name The Unix Society Such a society could have chapters which focus on particular things like Vax Unixes, PDP-11 Unixes etc., but share common high-level goals. While I disagree with Michael's idea of total world domination by Vaxen :-), I believe such a society will be composed of a multitude of different beliefs, ideas, sub-goals and drives. So please bear this in mind when mailing to the mailing list!!! My main sub-goal is to provide a home for the PDP-11 stuff. I don't yet have the disk space for all the other Unix platforms. Mail yesterday from Kirk McKusick says that the 4-CD BSD set should be ready within a matter of days. Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA10218 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 01:42:36 +1000 (EST) >From Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> Mon Aug 3 01:42:14 1998 Received: from aiai.ed.ac.uk (eigg.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.41.7]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA10212 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 01:42:28 +1000 (EST) Received: from dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk (dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.105.17]) by aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA24282; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 16:42:15 +0100 (BST) Received: (tfb@localhost) by dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) id QAA06412; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 16:42:14 +0100 Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 16:42:14 +0100 Message-Id: <199808021542.QAA06412(a)dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk> From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Cc: msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov), pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Thoughts on vaxen.... In-Reply-To: <199807312330.TAA09661(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> References: <9807311740.AA16914(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> <199807312330.TAA09661(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.14 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk * User Rdkeys Robert D Keys wrote: > What should one look for in a VAX? At least over here, the vax that `everyone' had was an 11/750, which is one reasonably-sized-but-very-heavy cabinet, with the CPU &c, and usually tape & disk in one or more other boxes. These things run 4.2 & 4.3 (and earlier I'm sure), and are a bit more tractable than the 11/780 (but slower). I'd guess that these things should be still available in large numbers, but maybe they've all been scrapped by now. There are many faster & smaller ones, but I always figured that the 750 & 780 were the most proper vaxen... --tim Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA11665 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:26:10 +1000 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Aug 3 09:25:53 1998 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA11658 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:26:01 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id IAA11512; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 08:55:54 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id IAA24983; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 08:55:53 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980803085553.H21892(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 08:55:53 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: The Unix Society References: <199808021118.VAA11148(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199808021118.VAA11148(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 09:18:34PM +1000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 21:18:34 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the > preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present. > I nominate the name The Unix Society > > Such a society could have chapters which focus on particular things like > Vax Unixes, PDP-11 Unixes etc., but share common high-level goals. > > While I disagree with Michael's idea of total world domination by Vaxen :-), > I believe such a society will be composed of a multitude of different beliefs, > ideas, sub-goals and drives. So please bear this in mind when mailing to the > mailing list!!! > > My main sub-goal is to provide a home for the PDP-11 stuff. I don't yet > have the disk space for all the other Unix platforms. Mail yesterday from > Kirk McKusick says that the 4-CD BSD set should be ready within a matter of > days. > > Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding > using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective. I don't see the difference in case between UNIX and Unix as significant in defining what part of speech it means, and we've already discovered that lawyers prefer UNIX, but will accept Unix if they want to make a case about violating the conditions of use of the name. I find the spelling "Unix" looks like the kind of mistake that people make when they're not aware of these niceties, so I'd prefer not to use it. More generally, though, there's nothing in the name that suggests anything to do with the history of the system. For all it says to the outside world, it's a new competitor to USENIX. OK, PUPS may be wearing thin, and I wasn't really serious with OUPS (I tried, unsuccesfully, to find an expansion for OOPS), but I think we need to look a little further if we want to change the name. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA11690 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:34:56 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Aug 3 09:35:17 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA11685 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:34:53 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA12929 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:35:17 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199808022335.JAA12929(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: The Unix Society To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:35:17 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <19980803085553.H21892(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 08:55:53 am" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Greg Lehey: > > Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the > > preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present. > > I nominate the name The Unix Society ... > > Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding > > using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective. > > I find the spelling "Unix" looks like the kind of mistake that > people make when they're not aware of these niceties, so I'd prefer > not to use it. > > More generally, though, there's nothing in the name that suggests > anything to do with the history of the system. For all it says to the > outside world, it's a new competitor to USENIX. Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste thing. I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven, Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these systems. We need a sub-committee to come up with a new name :-) My next suggestion is /The UNIX Heritage Society/i Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA11772 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:55:12 +1000 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Aug 3 09:54:52 1998 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA11767 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:55:07 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA11585; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:24:53 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id JAA25063; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:24:52 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980803092452.N21892(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:24:52 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: The Unix Society References: <19980803085553.H21892(a)freebie.lemis.com> <199808022335.JAA12929(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199808022335.JAA12929(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:35:17AM +1000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Monday, 3 August 1998 at 9:35:17 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Greg Lehey: >>> Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the >>> preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present. >>> I nominate the name The Unix Society ... >>> Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding >>> using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective. >> >> I find the spelling "Unix" looks like the kind of mistake that >> people make when they're not aware of these niceties, so I'd prefer >> not to use it. >> >> More generally, though, there's nothing in the name that suggests >> anything to do with the history of the system. For all it says to the >> outside world, it's a new competitor to USENIX. > > Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste > thing. I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven, > Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these systems. > > We need a sub-committee to come up with a new name :-) My next suggestion is > /The UNIX Heritage Society/i Sounds a lot better. Time for some other comments, when the rest of the world wakes up. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA11922 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:52:22 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 11 months

Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....)

by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu

Neil Johnson <neil(a)skatter.usask.ca> wrote: > I also suspect that most participants in the mailing list are > using PDP11 computers. My office is full of VAXen, but I don't envision a PDP-11 coming in any time soon. > If > other people do feel the PDP11 part of the name excludes them > perhaps a name change would be appropriate. Yes. Keep in mind that starting with 32V and 3BSD all cool and exciting development of True UNIX we're talking about here has been on VAXen, NOT on PDP-11s. Also almost all versions of VAX UNIX (I feel that 4.2BSD+ qualifies as "almost all") are networking, while PDP-11 UNIX (OK, with the exception of 2.11BSD) is not. You can't seriously expect a UNIXed PDP-11 do what people would normally expect a UNIX box to do. You CAN do this with a VAX (I'm the living proof). So, that "PDP-11" stuck in there is very insulting, implicitly suggesting that anyone who actually runs UNIX(R) in full production for thousands of users, rather than just "preserves" it, is an outcast. The same for the word "Preservation". Why not call it Proper UNIX Patriot Society? Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA04638 for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 08:58:27 +1000 (EST) >From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Sat Aug 1 08:53:31 1998 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA04633; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 08:58:19 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA09506; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 18:53:34 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199807312253.SAA09506(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....) In-Reply-To: <19980731094513.U7830(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Jul 31, 98 09:45:13 am" To: grog(a)lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 18:53:31 -0400 (EDT) Cc: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > On Wednesday, 29 July 1998 at 11:03:47 -0400, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote: > >> BUPS stands for BIG UNIX Preservation Society. I'm sure they will come > >> up with a better name :-) > > > > PUPS, BUPS, burp! Sounds fine! > > Are we really so many disparate people that we need two lists? I'd > guess that most people would be on both lists. How about just a name > change, to "Old UNIX Preservation Society"? > > Greg No, and my original thought was to fold it all under PUPS, but, I sense that Warren was not wanting to do that. For heaven's sakes, let us roll with the flow, and do what is best for all aboard. If that is one list, fine.... or two lists, fine. It was just a thought..... I would just like to see other orphan unices included in the philosophy behind PUPS, before they go vaporware, forever. How it gets there is unimportant, and for sure we don't want any politics or bent feelers involved. It is more important that we get it done, however it happens to get there. Bob Keys Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA04719 for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 09:35:16 +1000 (EST) >From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Sat Aug 1 09:30:35 1998 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA04714 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 09:35:09 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA09661; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 19:30:37 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199807312330.TAA09661(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Thoughts on vaxen.... In-Reply-To: <9807311740.AA16914(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Jul 31, 98 01:40:22 pm" To: msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 19:30:35 -0400 (EDT) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > Neil Johnson <neil(a)skatter.usask.ca> wrote: > My office is full of VAXen, but I don't envision a PDP-11 coming in any time > soon. For the sake of discussion..... What should one look for in a VAX? Say I was walking along through our state surplus agency (and I do that regularly these days, since all kinds of neato unicy goodies are popping up from a lot of folks going to NT toys), what kind of parts and pieces would I need to put together a minimal VAX, suited to some flavor of homegrown 32V/3BSD/4BSD, etc. Some of us would not really know one if it fell over on us.... like me. Yet, IFF I knew enough of what to look out for, mebbie one might appear. Everyone around here wants plain PC parts and machines in surplus, so the rest usually gets dumpster chucked or hauled off for scrap by the pallet load. I just missed 3 relay racks full of such things as 9 track tape drives, and some sort of pdpish lookalike things. So, what parts by name and number should I keep an eye out for, so that enough of something might be cobbled together to work? I have lots of experiences on PS/2, RT, and x86 unix boxes, but am woefully short on pdp-11 and VAXen experiences. I played with a pdp-11 many years ago, but I did not know much then. I am probably not the only one..... As ol' number 5 was want to say......``need input.... need input'' Thanks Bob Keys Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA06196 for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 21:13:02 +1000 (EST) >From Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Sat Aug 1 21:11:13 1998 Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.40]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA06191; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 21:12:53 +1000 (EST) Received: from (falstaf.demon.co.uk) [158.152.152.109] by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0z2Zai-0000tv-00; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 11:12:48 +0000 Message-ID: <eqRQxBARfvw1Ew98(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 12:11:13 +0100 To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Cc: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>, rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au From: Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....) In-Reply-To: <199807310120.LAA08798(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike (32) Version 3.05 <YSkKJATYm0AxAbv6xUlJqScVOx> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In message <199807310120.LAA08798(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>, Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes >In article by Greg Lehey: >> Are we really so many disparate people that we need two lists? I'd >> guess that most people would be on both lists. How about just a name >> change, to "Old UNIX Preservation Society"? >> >> Greg > >I don't know, I thought that it would give people more flexibility, >and shield people from stuff they didn't want to see. So lets ask: > >If you're on the PUPS list, do you want to see stuff about non PDP-11 Unixes? > Yes please. Two reasons. The first is that I have a general interest as I guess most of us have. The second is that I am interested in porting stuff onto 2.11 and if something comes up on the other unixes it may have an app on a pdp one >If you're on the BUPS list, do you want to see stuff about PDP-11 Unixes. > >Cheers all, > > Warren ____________________________________________________________________ Robin Birch robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk M1ASU/2E0ARJ Old computers and radios always welcome Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA08367 for pups-liszt; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 12:51:34 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 11 months

Re: Thoughts...

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Then start MAKING them! Our great nation of Workers and Peasants has the < military technology in the world! Let's show those bloodsucking capitali < that we can make PDP-11s and VAXen better than they ever could! They never stopped making them. Mentec has some really fast 11s. Mike, take a prozac and chill. It's all that capitalism that is making all of those old PDP-11s and such available in the first place. This place is for unix and it's heirs and relations not political ranting. We can argue better, first, cleanest, purity after we have captured the code and preserved it from loss. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA03203 for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 02:28:37 +1000 (EST) >From shsrms <shsrms(a)erols.com> Sat Aug 1 02:22:23 1998 Received: from smtp1.erols.com (smtp1.erols.com [207.172.3.234]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA03197 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 02:28:30 +1000 (EST) Received: from erols.com (207-172-243-104.s41.as4.rkv.erols.com [207.172.243.104]) by smtp1.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA04398; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:28:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35C1EF3D.6E05D8C7(a)erols.com> Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:22:23 -0400 From: shsrms <shsrms(a)erols.com> Reply-To: shsrms(a)ero_nospam_ls.com Organization: Holistic Horizons/Waverider Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au CC: msokolov(a)blackwidow.soml.cwru.edu, port-vax(a)netbsd.org Subject: Re: Thoughts... References: <9807311220.AA16681(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Fellow PUPS Listers, could someone with the proper education please look at Soko's postings here and in Netbsd vax list and tell me if soko is a real person or if he is an agitation program done by the psychology department? Thanks bob Michael Sokolov wrote: > > Stacy Minkin <stacy(a)asia.uznet.net> wrote: > > Absolutely right! The only problem with it that old CPUs are > > seems to be slowly vaporizing... > > Then start MAKING them! Our great nation of Workers and Peasants has the best > military technology in the world! Let's show those bloodsucking capitalists > that we can make PDP-11s and VAXen better than they ever could! > > Sincerely, > Michael Sokolov > Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) > ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu -- real address is shsrms at erols dot com The Herbal Gypsy and the Tinker. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA03322 for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 02:48:41 +1000 (EST) >From Neil Johnson <neil(a)skatter.usask.ca> Sat Aug 1 02:47:07 1998 Received: from skatter.USask.Ca (skatter.usask.ca [128.233.14.1]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA03317; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 02:48:35 +1000 (EST) Received: from hydrus.USask.Ca (hydrus.usask.ca [128.233.14.27]) by skatter.USask.Ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA04498; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:47:09 -0600 (CST) From: Neil Johnson <neil(a)skatter.usask.ca> Received: (from neil@localhost) by hydrus.USask.Ca (8.7.2/8.7.2) id KAA14549; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:47:07 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:47:07 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199807311647.KAA14549(a)hydrus.USask.Ca> To: grog(a)lemis.com, wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....) Cc: bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I agree with the idea of one list, but prefer the original PDP11 Unix Preservation Society. My interest is mainly PDP11 and Unix, which the name suggests. Linked together the names also provide an indication of the historical nature of the systems being used. I think anyone with an interest in only one of the two aspects should be welcome in the group, and I am interested in their questions or comments about their system. I also suspect that most participants in the mailing list are using PDP11 computers. If I didn't have an 11, but was still using a Model 16 from Radio Shack I personally would not feel unwelcome in this group with the original name retained. If other people do feel the PDP11 part of the name excludes them perhaps a name change would be appropriate. Neil Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA03502 for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 03:40:04 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 11 months

Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....)

by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu

Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> wrote: > Proper Unix Preservation Society! Yes! I vote for this! Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA02735 for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 23:45:09 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 11 months

Re: Thoughts...

by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu

Stacy Minkin <stacy(a)asia.uznet.net> wrote: > Absolutely right! The only problem with it that old CPUs are > seems to be slowly vaporizing... Then start MAKING them! Our great nation of Workers and Peasants has the best military technology in the world! Let's show those bloodsucking capitalists that we can make PDP-11s and VAXen better than they ever could! Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA02441 for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 22:25:32 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 11 months

Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....)

by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu

Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> wrote: > I don't know, I thought that it would give people more flexibility, > and shield people from stuff they didn't want to see. So lets ask: > > If you're on the PUPS list, do you want to see stuff about non PDP-11 Unixes? Yes! > If you're on the BUPS list, do you want to see stuff about PDP-11 Unixes. Yes! Personally, I think it's a bad idea to have two separate societies/lists. After all, in many case PDP-11 UNIX and VAX UNIX are the same code compiled for different CPUs, and these lists are not about binary-only OSes, are they? If it's all fundamentally the same code, it should be on one list, regardless of what CPUs people want to compile it for. I'm also a little troubled by the word "preservation". This word suggests the group acknowledges that these systems are "old" or "historical". 4.3BSD is being _ACTIVELY WORKED ON_ (by me) as I type, and I have been under the impression that 2.11BSD is also being actively worked on by Steven M. Schults. Sure, these systems WILL be "old" or "historical" if we just sit and "preserve" them, but IMHO this is NOT what we should do. We should look and act and behave AS IF these systems were brand new. I.e, run them in production on the net competing with Pentiums and SPARCs, and actually MAKE thse systems new by doing active development work on the sources just like the dev teams for "new" OSes do. If we can't build a time machine, let's shut all doors and windows and create a 1980s world inside! So, with these ideas in mind, why not call ourselves TUUDS, True UNIX User and Developer Society? Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02203 for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:13:34 +1000 (EST) >From Stacy Minkin <stacy(a)asia.uznet.net> Fri Jul 31 21:12:16 1998 Received: from harrier.Uznet.NET (harrier.ml.org [193.220.92.194]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA02197 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:13:01 +1000 (EST) Received: (from stacy@localhost) by harrier.Uznet.NET (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA03207 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 16:12:16 +0500 Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 16:12:16 +0500 From: Stacy Minkin <stacy(a)asia.uznet.net> Message-Id: <199807311112.QAA03207(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Thoughts... Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Hi All! > From: msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov) >I'm also a little troubled by the word "preservation". This word suggests the >group acknowledges that these systems are "old" or "historical". 4.3BSD is >being _ACTIVELY WORKED ON_ (by me) as I type, and I have been under the >impression that 2.11BSD is also being actively worked on by Steven M. Schults. >Sure, these systems WILL be "old" or "historical" if we just sit and "preserve" >them, but IMHO this is NOT what we should do. We should look and act and behave >AS IF these systems were brand new. I.e, run them in production on the net >competing with Pentiums and SPARCs, and actually MAKE thse systems new by doing >active development work on the sources just like the dev teams for "new" OSes >do. If we can't build a time machine, let's shut all doors and windows and >create a 1980s world inside! Absolutely right! The only problem with it that old CPUs are seems to be slowly vaporizing... I spent about ten years searching until I finally got original Digital PDP-11 here in Uzbekistan (xUSSR) ! And I succeeded only because I started working for Digital here. Stacy. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02334 for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:58:54 +1000 (EST) >From Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> Fri Jul 31 21:54:50 1998 Received: from aiai.ed.ac.uk (eigg.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.41.7]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA02329; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:58:48 +1000 (EST) Received: from dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk (dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.105.17]) by aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA16048; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:54:50 +0100 (BST) Received: (tfb@localhost) by dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) id MAA03301; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:54:50 +0100 Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:54:50 +0100 Message-Id: <199807311154.MAA03301(a)dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk> From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Cc: grog(a)lemis.com (Greg Lehey), rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....) In-Reply-To: <199807310120.LAA08798(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> References: <19980731094513.U7830(a)freebie.lemis.com> <199807310120.LAA08798(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.14 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > If you're on the PUPS list, do you want to see stuff about non PDP-11 Unixes? > If you're on the BUPS list, do you want to see stuff about PDP-11 Unixes. I'm on both, I'm interested in stuff about both. I would have thought that the overlap is fairly large. --tim Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02319 for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:56:18 +1000 (EST) >From Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> Fri Jul 31 21:55:32 1998 Received: from aiai.ed.ac.uk (eigg.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.41.7]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA02314; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:55:58 +1000 (EST) Received: from dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk (dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.105.17]) by aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA16054; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:55:33 +0100 (BST) Received: (tfb@localhost) by dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) id MAA03303; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:55:32 +0100 Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:55:32 +0100 Message-Id: <199807311155.MAA03303(a)dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk> From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: djenner(a)halcyon.com Cc: bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....) In-Reply-To: <35C138FB.A77E57E3(a)halcyon.com> References: <199807310120.LAA08798(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <35C138FB.A77E57E3(a)halcyon.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.14 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk * David C Jenner wrote: > I vote for one list. Leave it PUPS, and call it the > Past/Prehistoric/Perpetual Unix Preservation Society > or something like that. Or think up a "P" adjective > that glorifies the olden Unix. Proper Unix Preservation Society! Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA02386 for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 22:19:42 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 11 months

Re: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Excuse me, sir, but I have to make a point here. They _ARE_ competing Not an undesireable thing. May the best win... for the rest of us any is better than zero. < 0. The only higher-than-PDP-11 computers that can be allowed to run U < are DEC VAXen. I oppose the idea of running UNIX on PeeCees and shit lik < that. That is also wrong, as Interdata 8/32, IBM System/370 and Honeywell 6000 are recognized as ports by K&R in their docs! the latter three systems while interesting are not general collectors fare as they tend to be a bit large. Frankly, why not? Anything that competes with MS is good! < 1. I consider it the ultimate in blasphemy to attempt to create "UNI < clones" that people dare to call "Unix" but don't really contain any cod < written by God Ritchie, God Thompson, or God Kernighan. I never use any < "free Unices" like FreeBSD and NetBSD. Right now I use Ultrix and SunOS It was God Bell Labs (nee WE) that K&R worked for that put the odious license fees on unix, in 1980 it was a mere $24,000 for the sources which were a must have. People started doing clones to break free of the license and distributions that didn't contain sources. It made possible to get on platforms that were unsupported/unsupportable without source code or at least for the commercial versions at lower cost to the user. Venix for Pro350 is such an example (it's v6 or v7 code!). I'm not saying the clones are good or bad, only born of necessity. Of course they couldn't contain and of said God code due to licenses. Like all gods their feet are of clay. Since the goal is to preserve unix and unix like OSs there is no crime, even if the varients are not direct decendents. So long as people understand the lineage preservation should certainly should proceed. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA03871 for pups-liszt; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 03:31:54 +1000 (EST) >From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Thu Jul 30 03:27:12 1998 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA03866; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 03:31:47 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA04034; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:27:14 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199807291727.NAA04034(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts..... In-Reply-To: <9807291552.AA12576(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Jul 29, 98 11:52:57 am" To: msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:27:12 -0400 (EDT) Cc: bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> wrote: > > It is obvious that none of the old toys are going to be competing with > > the rush to NT and SCOish things. > > Excuse me, sir, but I have to make a point here. They _ARE_ competing! No excuses necessary. But, please relax a bit and don't let the blood boil to much. All of us here, are interested in the preservation of the beast. Granted many may run it for a living, me included, to some extent. But, likewise most or many of us are the same folks that have a vaxen or pdp-11 in the basement (I remember seeing a pix of one of our leader's machines next to the kitchen fridge?). Clearly, the basement/kitchen toys are not competing. They are purely hobby related. My dumpster risc box won't ever compete again, but is fun to spin up a TeX and troff on. > My office is the largest room in the department, and it's filled with VAXen > of all kinds. My goal is to get 4.3BSD-* running on all of them and operate > this system in direct competition with other UNIX systems on our campus, > which are all Pentiums or SPARCs. Since my system administration skills and > friendliness to students surpass those of other campus UNIX systems' admins > by many orders of binary magnitude, I plan to urge people to migrate to my > VAXen this way. Yes, my plan is total world VAX domination! This is exactly > why I want to modify Berkeley VAX UNIX to run on all VAX models from 11/780 > to 10000. (An EXTREMELY daring and ambitious goal, needless to say.) Clearly yours are more mainstream related. Kudos for the sysadmin handholding towards the students. Mentoring, one on one is the best way to handle many computer learning things. Although vaxen may dominate the world (or did at one time, according to Henry Spencer's infamous ten commandments for C programmers), there are many lesser breeds that I sense others of us partake of. Also, there are insufficient numbers of remaining vaxen and pdp-11's for all of us to have one in the home hobbyroom. Because of that, I would suggest that maybe there is interest in the other lines of machines and their related unices, even the 32bitters. > I have two strong and radical views: > > 0. The only higher-than-PDP-11 computers that can be allowed to run UNIX > are DEC VAXen. I oppose the idea of running UNIX on PeeCees and shit like > that. Not so, IMHO. The purist may run a vaxen in the manner of the Bugattis of old, but us garage monkeywrench types may be stuck with even a lowly PC thingie. Don't quite put the PC flavors down, since I can attest to their utility in poverty stricken research projects for at least the past 10 years, courtesy Big Blue and that hybrid PC unix of theirs (AIX 1.x). Also, the freebie BSD's are sufficiently close to the real thing, that most average users would not know the difference. Cat is cat is cat, no matter how it is coded (and they all look remarkably similar). > 1. I consider it the ultimate in blasphemy to attempt to create "UNIX > clones" that people dare to call "Unix" but don't really contain any code > written by God Ritchie, God Thompson, or God Kernighan. I never use any > "free Unices" like FreeBSD and NetBSD. Right now I use Ultrix and SunOS, > which are kosher in the above sense but binary-only for most people. The > latter part is why I want to move to 4.3BSD-*. Also my belief in True > licensed UNIX(R) is the reason I have joined PUPS, as it seems to be the > only remaining group dealing with such UNIX. Well, yes and no. I consider it a tribute to the likes of Thompson, Ritchie, Kernighan, Ossanna, and a string of others down the trees, that the wisdom of their reasoning and toiling has had fruition even in the lowly PC's. Why did the freebies catch on like they have? Because the folks wanted something like a BSD, and the corporate bean counters and lawyers missed their chance. As to which flavor to use, I use what I have that will run on whichever box I have on. I prefer a BSDish box, but even a V7 is fun, and with a viish terminal driver and troff, still runs with the best of the big dogs, and even AIX is usable if you get used to its quirks. But, for sure, the point of all this is to preserve the history, code, nuances, and whatever else can be maintained, unless I am sorely amiss of the PUPS goals. I only think it needs to include the castoff 32 bit machines, too, hence the need for a BUPS group, IMHO. > Sincerely, > Michael Sokolov With all due respect. R.D. Keys rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA03980 for pups-liszt; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 04:02:13 +1000 (EST) >From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Thu Jul 30 03:57:22 1998 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA03968; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 04:02:04 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA04109; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:57:25 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199807291757.NAA04109(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts (what have we started?) In-Reply-To: <199807291631.AA16185(a)world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Jul 29, 98 12:31:06 pm" To: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:57:22 -0400 (EDT) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > Not an undesireable thing. May the best win... for the rest of us any > is better than zero. Well said, but perhaps we need to frame that with something like, ``all will win, even the least....'' > < 0. The only higher-than-PDP-11 computers that can be allowed to run U > < are DEC VAXen. I oppose the idea of running UNIX on PeeCees and shit lik > < that. > > That is also wrong, as Interdata 8/32, IBM System/370 and Honeywell 6000 > are recognized as ports by K&R in their docs! the latter three systems > while interesting are not general collectors fare as they tend to be a > bit large. Can anyone refresh my memory of what machines specifically were listed in the V7 and 32V and 2/3/4BSD docs? I would like to get that clear, for reference purposes. Also, what specific machines were ported out of these main sources by the odd vendors. The majority was pdp11ish, but about V7 time the 68000 and Z8000 and other oddities pop up. > < 1. I consider it the ultimate in blasphemy to attempt to create "UNI > < clones" that people dare to call "Unix" but don't really contain any cod > < written by God Ritchie, God Thompson, or God Kernighan. I never use any > < "free Unices" like FreeBSD and NetBSD. Right now I use Ultrix and SunOS > > It was God Bell Labs (nee WE) that K&R worked for that put the odious > license fees on unix, in 1980 it was a mere $24,000 for the sources which > were a must have. People started doing clones to break free of the > license and distributions that didn't contain sources. It made possible > to get on platforms that were unsupported/unsupportable without source > code or at least for the commercial versions at lower cost to the user. > Venix for Pro350 is such an example (it's v6 or v7 code!). I'm not > saying the clones are good or bad, only born of necessity. Of course > they couldn't contain and of said God code due to licenses. I would agree on the necessity. Back in '88 I went shopping for an office machine, and could find nothing under around 25 kilobucks. I opted out for a peanuts budget machine (PS/2 model 80 with AIX) at around 10K bucks and the silly thing is still whirring away as my remote tape dumper. Alas, it is a much maligned PC, but it functions nontheless, and IS a real unix. Alas, these days, its steam is a little underpowered trying to scrape the web, so it idles in the background. Technically, it is a 32 bit abandoned unix, and for hypotheticals, it ought to be something workable in a BUPS sort of archive, with proper Big Blue nodding. The same thing should occur for the RT. It would probably be a nightmare of paperwork between SCO and IBM and us, tho..... > Like all gods their feet are of clay. The gods were hacking away fine.... alas the beanyheads upstairs had their feet stuck, if I am reading my history correctly. > Since the goal is to preserve unix and unix like OSs there is no crime, > even if the varients are not direct decendents. So long as people > understand the lineage preservation should certainly should proceed. The goal is to save it if possible, BEFORE it becomes vaporware, for purely hobby/historical purposes, with the big player's graces and consents. If we don't dream a little and oil some squeeky wheels, it will never get done..... > Allison RDK Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA14668 for pups-liszt; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:18:07 +1000 (EST) >From "Ian King" <iking(a)KillTheWabbit.org> Thu Jul 30 16:02:39 1998 Received: from forbin.killthewabbit.org (killthewabbit.org [208.192.43.132]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA14663; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:17:49 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199807300606.XAA11564(a)forbin.killthewabbit.org> From: "Ian King" <iking(a)KillTheWabbit.org> To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>, "Michael Sokolov" <msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Cc: <bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>, <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts..... Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 23:02:39 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1160 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au id QAA14664 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I'm glad there are people and codebases that compete with Microsoft -- and I work for Microsoft. It keeps us on our toes. :-) I run NT 4.0 and Linux 2.0.30 side-by-side at home, on the selfsame network -- and all on Intel hardware. I am on this mailing list because I am gaining a PDP 11/34 as a new resident in my home, which will be networked together with the Intel hardware (so I don't have to run downstairs all the time -- the PDP is too large for my computer room upstairs). Why? Call it a sense of history.... Why shouldn't UNIX run on everything? The beauty of the UNIX idea -- which has been cloned and transported and transliterated and transmogrified a myriad times a myriad times -- is that it expresses a rich metaphor for computation, which allows us to make use of these metal monsters. I have the greatest respect for "true" UNIX and its parents and godparents. I also have a lot of respect for Linus Torvalds and the incredible piece of work he birthed -- a true UNIX version that makes excellent use of the PC architecture. The PC architecture has commoditized significant computing power in a manner that Digital could never have done (or at least, never did), and placed that into the hands of many people who would be otherwise financially barred from playing this game. IMHO it's specious to demonize a particular machine architecture and declare that UNIXes running on it are somehow illegitimate. Cheers -- Ian King NOTE: this is strictly my personal ramblings, and does not in any way represent the official position of the Microsoft Corporation. ---------- > From: User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> > To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> > Cc: bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au > Subject: Re: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts..... > Date: Wednesday, July 29, 1998 10:27 AM > > > "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> wrote: > > > It is obvious that none of the old toys are going to be competing with > > > the rush to NT and SCOish things. > > > > Excuse me, sir, but I have to make a point here. They _ARE_ competing! > > No excuses necessary. But, please relax a bit and don't let the blood > boil to much. All of us here, are interested in the preservation of the > beast. Granted many may run it for a living, me included, to some extent. > But, likewise most or many of us are the same folks that have a vaxen > or pdp-11 in the basement (I remember seeing a pix of one of our leader's > machines next to the kitchen fridge?). Clearly, the basement/kitchen toys > are not competing. They are purely hobby related. My dumpster risc box > won't ever compete again, but is fun to spin up a TeX and troff on. > > > My office is the largest room in the department, and it's filled with VAXen > > of all kinds. My goal is to get 4.3BSD-* running on all of them and operate > > this system in direct competition with other UNIX systems on our campus, > > which are all Pentiums or SPARCs. Since my system administration skills and > > friendliness to students surpass those of other campus UNIX systems' admins > > by many orders of binary magnitude, I plan to urge people to migrate to my > > VAXen this way. Yes, my plan is total world VAX domination! This is exactly > > why I want to modify Berkeley VAX UNIX to run on all VAX models from 11/780 > > to 10000. (An EXTREMELY daring and ambitious goal, needless to say.) > > Clearly yours are more mainstream related. > > Kudos for the sysadmin handholding towards the students. Mentoring, one > on one is the best way to handle many computer learning things. > > Although vaxen may dominate the world (or did at one time, according to > Henry Spencer's infamous ten commandments for C programmers), there are > many lesser breeds that I sense others of us partake of. Also, there > are insufficient numbers of remaining vaxen and pdp-11's for all of us > to have one in the home hobbyroom. Because of that, I would suggest > that maybe there is interest in the other lines of machines and their > related unices, even the 32bitters. > > > I have two strong and radical views: > > > > 0. The only higher-than-PDP-11 computers that can be allowed to run UNIX > > are DEC VAXen. I oppose the idea of running UNIX on PeeCees and shit like > > that. > > Not so, IMHO. The purist may run a vaxen in the manner of the Bugattis > of old, but us garage monkeywrench types may be stuck with even a lowly > PC thingie. Don't quite put the PC flavors down, since I can attest to > their utility in poverty stricken research projects for at least the past > 10 years, courtesy Big Blue and that hybrid PC unix of theirs (AIX 1.x). > Also, the freebie BSD's are sufficiently close to the real thing, that > most average users would not know the difference. Cat is cat is cat, > no matter how it is coded (and they all look remarkably similar). > > > 1. I consider it the ultimate in blasphemy to attempt to create "UNIX > > clones" that people dare to call "Unix" but don't really contain any code > > written by God Ritchie, God Thompson, or God Kernighan. I never use any > > "free Unices" like FreeBSD and NetBSD. Right now I use Ultrix and SunOS, > > which are kosher in the above sense but binary-only for most people. The > > latter part is why I want to move to 4.3BSD-*. Also my belief in True > > licensed UNIX(R) is the reason I have joined PUPS, as it seems to be the > > only remaining group dealing with such UNIX. > > Well, yes and no. > > I consider it a tribute to the likes of Thompson, Ritchie, Kernighan, > Ossanna, and a string of others down the trees, that the wisdom of their > reasoning and toiling has had fruition even in the lowly PC's. Why did > the freebies catch on like they have? Because the folks wanted something > like a BSD, and the corporate bean counters and lawyers missed their chance. > As to which flavor to use, I use what I have that will run on whichever > box I have on. I prefer a BSDish box, but even a V7 is fun, and with > a viish terminal driver and troff, still runs with the best of the big > dogs, and even AIX is usable if you get used to its quirks. > > But, for sure, the point of all this is to preserve the history, code, > nuances, and whatever else can be maintained, unless I am sorely amiss > of the PUPS goals. I only think it needs to include the castoff 32 > bit machines, too, hence the need for a BUPS group, IMHO. > > > Sincerely, > > Michael Sokolov > > With all due respect. > > R.D. Keys > rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA00214 for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:22:06 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Jul 31 11:20:35 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA00201; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:21:49 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA08798; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:20:36 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199807310120.LAA08798(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....) To: grog(a)lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:20:35 +1000 (EST) Cc: rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu, wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <19980731094513.U7830(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Jul 31, 98 09:45:13 am" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Greg Lehey: > Are we really so many disparate people that we need two lists? I'd > guess that most people would be on both lists. How about just a name > change, to "Old UNIX Preservation Society"? > > Greg I don't know, I thought that it would give people more flexibility, and shield people from stuff they didn't want to see. So lets ask: If you're on the PUPS list, do you want to see stuff about non PDP-11 Unixes? If you're on the BUPS list, do you want to see stuff about PDP-11 Unixes. Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA00743 for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 13:25:22 +1000 (EST) >From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Fri Jul 31 13:24:43 1998 Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (mgate.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA00738; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 13:25:15 +1000 (EST) Received: from halcyon.com (blv-lx106-ip44.nwnexus.net [206.63.41.244]) by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA07370; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 20:24:49 -0700 Message-ID: <35C138FB.A77E57E3(a)halcyon.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 20:24:43 -0700 From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Reply-To: djenner(a)halcyon.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....) References: <199807310120.LAA08798(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I vote for one list. Leave it PUPS, and call it the Past/Prehistoric/Perpetual Unix Preservation Society or something like that. Or think up a "P" adjective that glorifies the olden Unix. Almost everything has been cross-posted up to this point, and I get two copies anyway! Dave Warren Toomey wrote: > > In article by Greg Lehey: > > Are we really so many disparate people that we need two lists? I'd > > guess that most people would be on both lists. How about just a name > > change, to "Old UNIX Preservation Society"? > > > > Greg > > I don't know, I thought that it would give people more flexibility, > and shield people from stuff they didn't want to see. So lets ask: > > If you're on the PUPS list, do you want to see stuff about non PDP-11 Unixes? > > If you're on the BUPS list, do you want to see stuff about PDP-11 Unixes. > > Cheers all, > > Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA01084 for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:32:13 +1000 (EST) >From Stacy Minkin <stacy(a)asia.uznet.net> Fri Jul 31 15:29:46 1998 Received: from harrier.Uznet.NET (harrier.ml.org [193.220.92.194]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA01078 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:30:19 +1000 (EST) Received: (from stacy@localhost) by harrier.Uznet.NET (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA01933 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:29:46 +0500 Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:29:46 +0500 From: Stacy Minkin <stacy(a)asia.uznet.net> Message-Id: <199807310529.KAA01933(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Let'em be one! Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I also vote for one list. Stacy. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA01162 for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:53:58 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Jul 31 15:54:00 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA01157 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:53:54 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA09629 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:54:01 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199807310554.PAA09629(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Let'em be one! Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:54:00 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199807310529.KAA01933(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> from Stacy Minkin at "Jul 31, 98 10:29:46 am" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Stacy Minkin: > > I also vote for one list [about old UNIX]. > Stacy. Looks like most people would like a common list, so I have merged the two lists. The PUPS list is now for Prehistoric UNIX :-) I'll keep the PUPS web page about PDP-11 stuff for now, though. The bups@minnie list is gone, and all mail for the list should now go to pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au. What next? Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA02057 for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:08:38 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 11 months

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