TUHS

tuhs@tuhs.org

43 participants
6501 discussions

by gq696＠cleveland.Freenet.Edu

Dear TUHS members, Sorry for my sudden disappearance. There was nothing I could do about it. I am off-campus since 3-AUG-1998 and some time last week my machine (blackwidow) stopped responding to ping. I have also been away from computers in general until yesterday. If everything works out OK, I should be able to come back to campus and get my machine back up the coming Monday, 17-AUG-1998. For now I'm using my ancient Cleveland Free-Net account for mail. The address is in my signature. It's screwed up in a number of ways, starting with the funny way my name is written, but that's all I have for now. I originally wanted to follow the PUPS/TUHS list via the WWW archive, but it appears to be updated in a digest-like fashion (the normal practice for Majordomo), so that probably won't work out well. Warren, would you please add my temporary address to the list? From what I can see in the WWW archive (right now goes up to 5-AUG-1998 morning), the decision as to the future of the society has already been made. Oh well. Warren, as far as a WWW page or something describing my VAX UNIX work goes, a little later, OK? Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Cellular Phone: 216-217-2579 *TEMPORARY* ARPA Internet SMTP mail: gq696(a)cleveland.freenet.edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA25374 for pups-liszt; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:42:38 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Aug 12 09:43:56 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA25369 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:42:35 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA00744 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:43:56 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199808112343.JAA00744(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Thoughts... To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:43:56 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980812013327.13671E-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> from Johnny Billquist at "Aug 12, 98 01:36:42 am" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Johnny Billquist: > (Maybe it's time to drop out of PUPS, Sokolov is here, and for me, I'm not > into big old Unix, only pdp-11 stuff...) Unfortunately, Michael's email address has stopped working i.e whatever machine holds the MX record isn't taking incoming mail messages. Therefore I can't contact him to fix it. Looks like the Unix Heritage Society page at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/TUHS is getting some attention. Does anybody have any more hotlinks to add? I know that there's a 3B2 group somewhere, if I had a URL I'd add it. Ditto for any other Unix-related heritage pages. Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA01853 for pups-liszt; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 15:58:42 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 9 months

Re: A Decision :-)

by Greg Lehey

On Wednesday, 5 August 1998 at 9:11:53 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > Ok, here's the decision (for now). The PUPS mailing list now has the working > name: The UNIX Heritage Society. The email address will stay the same for > now. The mailing list topics are controlled by its members, so feel free to > chat about PDP-11 UNIX, 32-bit UNIX, Unix derived systems, your cat (well, > maybe not). I'm happy for chat about systems which don't require UNIX source > licences, too. > > Many people should set up web pages to cover their own particular interest. > Mine's at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/ > Someone (me?) will set up a web page describing the charter of The UNIX > Heritage Society, with pointers to everybody's web page. OK. Check out http://www.lemis.com/~grog/history.html. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA25348 for pups-liszt; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 01:11:56 +1000 (EST) >From Kees Stravers <pb0aia(a)iaehv.nl> Thu Aug 6 01:11:21 1998 Received: from IAEhv.nl (root(a)iaehv.IAEhv.nl [194.151.64.2]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA25343 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 01:11:49 +1000 (EST) Received: from 194.151.78.1 (pm3d00.IAEhv.nl [194.151.78.1]) by IAEhv.nl (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA26558 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 17:11:21 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 17:11:21 +0200 (CEST) From: Kees Stravers <pb0aia(a)iaehv.nl> Message-Id: <199808051511.RAA26558(a)IAEhv.nl> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: TUHS web page: version #0 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au said on Wed, 5 Aug 1998 02:13:48 +0200 (CEST) wk>The zeroth version of a web page for this all-encompassing group wk>thingy to cover all Unix preservation/development etc is now at: wk>http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/TUHS/ wk>Feel free (if not compelled) to mail me with suggestions, wk>hyperlinks, background artwork etc. Michael, would you be able to wk>knock up a VAX UNIX web page so I could add a hyperlink to it? Maybe I can help (a little). At this moment I am building a site dedicated to the VAX and its operating systems, mostly concentrating on hardware info and NetBSD for now, but I also have a links page to a lot of information on BSD and generic Unix, and there is a PDP11 links page. I am on this mailing list because I have several MicroPDP's here, and I want to run 2.11 on them, but at the time I am tinkering with the VAXen more often. (Unfortunately I haven't yet been able to request the licence from SCO, but that won't take too long anymore.) The site I am building is at http://vaxarchive.ml.org I would like to mirror the Unix heritage information on this site, there is room for some more files. Please take a look at my site and let me know what information you think should be there too that I missed, so I can make the site more complete. Kees -- Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - pb0aia at amsat dot org Sysadmin and DEC PDP/VAX preservationist - http://vaxarchive.ml.org http://www.iae.nl/users/kees/vax/ - My VAX and old iron collection Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Registered Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA26516 for pups-liszt; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 07:16:08 +1000 (EST) >From Bill/Carolyn Pechter <pechter(a)shell.monmouth.com> Thu Aug 6 07:15:52 1998 Received: from shell.monmouth.com (shell.monmouth.com [205.231.236.9]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA26511 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 07:16:02 +1000 (EST) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by shell.monmouth.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id RAA12664 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 17:15:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter <pechter(a)shell.monmouth.com> Message-Id: <199808052115.RAA12664(a)shell.monmouth.com> Subject: Old Unix Preservation -- How to save the SysV varients To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 17:15:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk One thing about preserving the Unix varients. There's a number of interesting (lesser known) versions with features that may be interesting to study. This may be because of my history major background -- or that I spent too many years in Field Service for far too many vendors of these boxes. One example is Masscomp/Concurrent's early RTU which had dual universes (SysIII-SysV/BSD libraries), DEC-like ASTs and real-time processes. Concurrent (originally Interdata, Perkin-Elmer) also had a very nice non virtual memory SysVRel2 called Xelos as well as Edition VII. Another Unix (which I'd kill for sources for) is Pyramid's OS/x which was a SysV/BSD4.2 dual universe box (with both sets of init/getty and 3 UUCP's). It was kind of the Universal Unix system. Pick your init, universe, UUCP... they're all in there. AT&T sold these as System 7000's, Siemens-Nixdorf also sold them. I worked for Pyramid and found it my favorite Unix to this day -- since I could mix and match features on the fly. Both of these versions are pretty dead today. I don't know if Siemens-Pyramid even supports OS/x any more (probably not -- since they're going Reliant SysVR4 and Solaris on the new stuff). The main drawback to getting these systems are they were was all implemented on SysIII or SysV releases -- so the licenses are constrained by the original "You need a SysV source license to get our source code plus our license fee." Bill Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA26958 for pups-liszt; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 09:46:36 +1000 (EST) >From Kees Stravers <pb0aia(a)iaehv.nl> Thu Aug 6 09:46:20 1998 Received: from IAEhv.nl (root(a)iaehv.IAEhv.nl [194.151.64.2]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA26953 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 09:46:30 +1000 (EST) Received: from 194.151.78.4 (pm3d03.IAEhv.nl [194.151.78.4]) by IAEhv.nl (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA21053 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 01:46:20 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 01:46:20 +0200 (CEST) From: Kees Stravers <pb0aia(a)iaehv.nl> Message-Id: <199808052346.BAA21053(a)IAEhv.nl> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Old Unix Preservation -- How to save the SysV varients Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk pechter(a)shell.monmouth.com said on Thu, 6 Aug 1998 00:08:07 +0200 (CEST) pe>One thing about preserving the Unix varients. There's a number of pe>interesting (lesser known) versions with features that may be pe>interesting to study. This may be because of my history major pe>background -- or that I spent too many years in Field Service for pe>far too many vendors of these boxes. pe>One example is Masscomp/Concurrent's early RTU which had dual pe>universes (SysIII-SysV/BSD libraries), DEC-like ASTs and real-time pe>processes. Concurrent (originally Interdata, Perkin-Elmer) also pe>had a very nice non virtual memory SysVRel2 called Xelos as well as pe>Edition VII. 8< snip >8 Do you have any hardware documentation left on the Masscomps? I have a 5700 here in the basement and a stack of floppies that should be the install set for RTU 5.0, but the hard disk, a Fujitsu Eagle, is dead. There is no information on the machine to be found on the net at all and the newsgroup has been dead for years. I'd put up a page on the machine myself if I knew something worth telling about it. I don't have any hardware manuals, only a very incomplete set on the OS. Can I mount any SMD drive in the machine and tell the install about the geometry or do I also have to tell the controller? How do I copy the disks? Can Teledisk duplicate them? (I once saw that it said it copied the disk successfully, but the target machine couldn't read it.) Kees -- Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - pb0aia at amsat dot org Sysadmin and DEC PDP/VAX preservationist - http://vaxarchive.ml.org Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Registered Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA28239 for pups-liszt; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 15:24:14 +1000 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Thu Aug 6 15:23:54 1998 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA28234 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 15:24:07 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id OAA23554; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 14:53:55 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id OAA09593; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 14:53:54 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980806145354.H9468(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 14:53:54 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: Kees Stravers <pb0aia(a)iaehv.nl>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Old Unix Preservation -- How to save the SysV varients References: <199808052346.BAA21053(a)IAEhv.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199808052346.BAA21053(a)IAEhv.nl>; from Kees Stravers on Thu, Aug 06, 1998 at 01:46:20AM +0200 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Thursday, 6 August 1998 at 1:46:20 +0200, Kees Stravers wrote: > pechter(a)shell.monmouth.com said on Thu, 6 Aug 1998 00:08:07 +0200 (CEST) > pe>One thing about preserving the Unix varients. There's a number of > pe>interesting (lesser known) versions with features that may be > pe>interesting to study. This may be because of my history major > pe>background -- or that I spent too many years in Field Service for > pe>far too many vendors of these boxes. > pe>One example is Masscomp/Concurrent's early RTU which had dual > pe>universes (SysIII-SysV/BSD libraries), DEC-like ASTs and real-time > pe>processes. Concurrent (originally Interdata, Perkin-Elmer) also > pe>had a very nice non virtual memory SysVRel2 called Xelos as well as > pe>Edition VII. > > 8< snip >8 > > Do you have any hardware documentation left on the Masscomps? I've never even *seen* a Masscomp, but "Writing a UNIX Device Driver", by Janet Egan and Thomas Teixeira, based on a Masscomp document. It's possible that if you can find one of them, they could give you a lead. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA25327 for pups-liszt; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:37:25 +1000 (EST) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Wed Aug 12 09:36:42 1998 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (2026(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA25322 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:37:18 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA14600; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 01:36:45 +0200 Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 01:36:42 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Thoughts... In-Reply-To: <199807311344.AA23930(a)world.std.com> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980812013327.13671E-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > < Then start MAKING them! Our great nation of Workers and Peasants has the > < military technology in the world! Let's show those bloodsucking capitali > < that we can make PDP-11s and VAXen better than they ever could! > > They never stopped making them. Mentec has some really fast 11s. (Maybe it's time to drop out of PUPS, Sokolov is here, and for me, I'm not into big old Unix, only pdp-11 stuff...) Anyway, to make the list more complete, Quickware makes even faster pdp-11s last time I looked, and a third player is Strobe Data. So there are still lots of go in the pdp-11 community, I'll bet it will outlive the VAXen. > Mike, take a prozac and chill. It's all that capitalism that is making > all of those old PDP-11s and such available in the first place. This > place is for unix and it's heirs and relations not political ranting. > We can argue better, first, cleanest, purity after we have captured the > code and preserved it from loss. Amen. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA25351 for pups-liszt; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:40:09 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 9 months

Re: The Unix Society

by allisonp＠world.std.com

How about a direct approach. Create UBOS, UBOS spells out to Unix Based Operating Systems. PUPs would then be a sibling as would other potential *nix based OS forums. the key is if you not sure, it goes to UBOS and from there vectored to the best fit forum. Possible sibling forums could be NIX-32 for the 32bit and NIX-16 for the other yet not defined 16bit *nix. there are also 8bit flavors and of course 64bit ones as well. No doubt I'm missing a few. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA19897 for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 06:09:53 +1000 (EST) >From Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> Wed Aug 5 06:09:41 1998 Received: from aiai.ed.ac.uk (eigg.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.41.7]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA19892 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 06:09:47 +1000 (EST) Received: from todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk (todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.105.40]) by aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA08847 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 21:09:42 +0100 (BST) Received: (tfb@localhost) by todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) id VAA11887; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 21:09:41 +0100 Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 21:09:41 +0100 Message-Id: <199808042009.VAA11887(a)todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk> From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: The Unix Society In-Reply-To: <9808030314.AA18496(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> References: <9808030314.AA18496(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.14 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk * Michael Sokolov wrote: >> Keep it to systems which require a UNIX source license, then? > Yes! No no no! This is really bad. We should not try and sit down and say who or what we exclude and who or what we include. There are hundreds of Unix and Unix-related systems that ran or run on all sorts of hardware: trying to define some arbitrary border is just bogus, and is also pretty disturbing in various respects (`you over there, you're running a 4.2BSD-derivative system with lots of non-bell/non-Berkeley code in it on something that isn't even a vax, *you* can't talk to *us* cos you're not pure enough, nah nah nah'). Let's just not stress about this stuff, and let anyone who is interested in older Unixoid systems be involved. The only logical dividing line is the 16-bit/32-bit one -- really the PDP11/bigger system one -- and even that is furry (where does 32v live, or the interdata port, or ?). It's not like the list is suddenly going to get taken over by people trying to talk about Linux or Solaris or something: those poeple have their own lists and are quite happy there. If people ask inappropriate questions they won't get answers (or will get polite pointers to ask somewhere more apropriate). As for name, I still like my own suggestion of `proper unix preservation society', though I can see there may be copyright issues. Most of all, can't we stop all this silly meta-discussion and actually talk about real interesting stuff! Here's a question I'd actually like to know the answer to: have there been ports of Unix or Unix-like systems to machines with non-power-of-2 word sizes or other `strange' (by modern standards) machines? --tim (who's running a 4.2BSD-derivative system with lots of non-bell/non-Berkeley code in it on something that isn't even a Vax. And is also on holiday, so won't be reading this stuff for a while) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA22129 for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:11:20 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Aug 5 09:11:53 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA22124 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:11:16 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA18650 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:11:53 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199808042311.JAA18650(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: A Decision :-) To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:11:53 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Ok, here's the decision (for now). The PUPS mailing list now has the working name: The UNIX Heritage Society. The email address will stay the same for now. The mailing list topics are controlled by its members, so feel free to chat about PDP-11 UNIX, 32-bit UNIX, Unix derived systems, your cat (well, maybe not). I'm happy for chat about systems which don't require UNIX source licences, too. Many people should set up web pages to cover their own particular interest. Mine's at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/ Someone (me?) will set up a web page describing the charter of The UNIX Heritage Society, with pointers to everybody's web page. If the mailing list becomes too diverse, then people are free to set up other mailing lists with more restricted topics. Again, I'll add hyperlinks on the The UNIX Heritage Society web page to the mailing lists. Suggestions for a better name then `The UNIX Heritage Society' can be mailed to me :-) Suggestions for the charter of `The UNIX Heritage Society', or whatever you want to call it, can also be sent to me. I'll add hyperlinks on the The UNIX Heritage Society web page for each suggestion. I'd rather this thing be all-inclusive, rather then exclusive. At the same time, I want people to feel free to set up web/mail resources with more specific aims. For example, the PUPS web pages are going to stay unchanged. Now, as Tim suggested, let's stop going round in circles and actually get back to DOING things :-) Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA22163 for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:20:54 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Aug 5 09:21:28 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA22158 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:20:51 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA18748 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:21:28 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199808042321.JAA18748(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Kirk's 4CD BSD set: status To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:21:28 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk All, Kirk McKusick has updated his web page about his 4CD set of BSD releases at http://www.mckusick.com/csrg/ Status: production is delayed a further week. Unfortuntely, Kirk is just about to go off overseas for three weeks, and won't be back until the end of August. You may place your orders on his web page, but things won't start to happen until the 1st of September. Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA22319 for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:55:31 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Aug 5 09:56:04 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA22311 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:55:27 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA18931 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:56:04 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199808042356.JAA18931(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: TUHS web page: version #0 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:56:04 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk All, The zeroth version of a web page for this all-encompassing group thingy to cover all Unix preservation/development etc is now at: http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/TUHS/ Feel free (if not compelled) to mail me with suggestions, hyperlinks, background artwork etc. Michael, would you be able to knock up a VAX UNIX web page so I could add a hyperlink to it? Thanks, Warren

26 years, 9 months

PUPS, BUPS, BURPS, and other stomach upsets

by norman＠nose.cs.yorku.ca

The recent fuss seems to me to be much overdone, mainly because of a small number of people with strong views and a restless urge to type. Here's my view, which I hold with some strength, but with little religious zeal. The top of Warren's web page about PUPS says the society is `devoted to the preservation of all information related to the versions of Unix that ran on Digital PDPs.' It seems pretty clear to me that his original intent was to collect and keep historic data, not to Promote The One True Unix nor to Support Software That We Approve Of nor to Make Money Fast. (No slur intended on those who do want to do those things.) Certainly that is the basis on which I joined the mailing list, and on which I've contributed the small amount of time I've put in. It makes sense to me that efforts to preserve post-PDP11 Unix systems be coordinated with PUPS, whether that means folding them into the same society or just having several groups that share. I would suggest that a single society (even if run as several distributed pieces) would probably be less work in the long run, and think that `UNIX Heritage Society' is a fine name. (Just plain `UNIX Society' is too broad; it sounds like a duplication of USENIX.) Those who think `heritage' and `preservation' are dirty words are, I think, missing the point; see the paragraph above. All of this is likely to involve more work for someone. I don't know just who has done what to make PUPS work, but it looks to me like the bulk of the work has fallen on Warren; certainly he did the single hardest part, that of getting things started. Those of us who think the society should do more things should be prepared to put our money, labour, and whatnot where our mouths are. In that spirit: I'm not likely to have much time to help out for the next few months, as I'm starting a new job, and just keeping my project to recover the old manuals into machine-readable form will soak up most of my spare cycles. (Apologies to all that the samples and whatnot I'd hoped to put up on the web still aren't up, by the way; winding down my present work commitments and trying to arrange a graceful startup of my new ones has taken a lot more effort than expected.) It may be possible in my new world to help out with some computing resources, e.g. a Canadian mirror of the PUPS archives; I'll try to plan for that in the already-being-planned upheaval of my new world's computing environment. If the master PUPS site is short of resources, e.g. could use another disk or two, I'd be happy to help out with some cash. I encourage others who can help out to speak up. Judging by the amount of mail that has passed through the mailing list recently (almost 5% of an RK05 by my count), there should be some spare energy out there somewhere. It may also be worth while to approach USENIX for support; preserving UNIX heritage is certainly not foreign to them, and their current president has some history of preservation work. Norman Wilson Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA19772 for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 05:24:28 +1000 (EST) >From Neil Johnson <neil(a)skatter.usask.ca> Wed Aug 5 05:24:11 1998 Received: from skatter.USask.Ca (skatter.usask.ca [128.233.14.1]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA19762 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 05:24:19 +1000 (EST) Received: from hydrus.USask.Ca (hydrus.usask.ca [128.233.14.27]) by skatter.USask.Ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA09338; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 13:24:13 -0600 (CST) From: Neil Johnson <neil(a)skatter.usask.ca> Received: (from neil@localhost) by hydrus.USask.Ca (8.7.2/8.7.2) id NAA16324; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 13:24:11 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 13:24:11 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199808041924.NAA16324(a)hydrus.USask.Ca> To: msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: The Unix Society Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I don't like the idea of focusing the group on versions of unix with source licences available for a number of reasons. Expensive source licences are available for new versions of unix. If the limitation is to an inexpensive hobbiest licence then a somewhat arbitrary price has to be set for inexpensive. A second, and more important objection is that we are explicitly excluding users who want to use the free PDP-11 unix binary licences. Finally, users of other vintage unixes with legal, binary only licences would be excluded. Neil Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA19830 for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 05:48:32 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 9 months

Re: The UNIX Heritage Society

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Heritage means: that which may be inherited. I think this is appropriate ^^^ has Heritiage is generally historical in context be it previous or present tense for the future. Preservation in teh case of PDP-11 (and otehr 16bit) was needed or it may have been lost. One assumes the license grantors actually have complete sources. In the case of at least on other OS they had the license but little of the code. < as we have all inherited a wonderful system from Ken and Dennis. In fact < we've inherited the UNIX paradigm, which influences the way we think. True. The key here is there are two types of OSs, retired(not commercially viable or no support) and those that have commercial value. Let us not forget Mike is trying to develop a commercially viable OS that is not free or shareware. Also by and large Mike is in the process of doing what other call archeology. One must resore and understand the structure before building upon it. The patriot stuff, pure poof. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA14295 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 23:47:33 +1000 (EST) >From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Mon Aug 3 23:42:53 1998 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA14290 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 23:47:27 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA17517 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:42:55 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199808031342.JAA17517(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: Extending the cheap SCO src license In-Reply-To: <199808030251.MAA13502(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "Aug 3, 98 12:51:22 pm" To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:42:53 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > > OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bit > > systems. We'd like to get, say, System V as well. > > > > Greg > > After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V > cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have > the crippled System V for the PDP-11. Do any of us really want SysV? One can get that in a free license for unixware or such, as it is, if I am understanding things correctly. > You might be lucky to get System III added to the source license, and separate > binary-only licenses for certain System V systems. That's another battle, tho. Gee, I sense I have stirred up a wee bit of a hornets nest. For the sake of discussion, maybe that is good. What I had originally thought was that it might be possible to include under the PUPS banner (or whatever it is to be called {PUPS is fine to me}), to include orphan unices. Let me suggest that what I mean by orphan unices is a flavor of unix in binary or source that is essentially commercially past history. That would specifically be to keep from camping on SCO's income. What might be considered an orphan unix? One might consider things like the BSD tree to be orphan, as it relates to non-commercial use (one would consider BSDI commercial, but most of the others non-commercial maybe). One might consider something like Coherent to be non-commercial anymore. Although that is not a ``true'' unix, it sure looks and feels the same and quacks very much like a V7 or early SysV. Xenix falls into the same quacks like a duck category. Although Xenix is still used commercially, it may be be time to begin to consider that we might, in due time, aproach SCO to offer a hobby style Xenix license of some sort. I would not expect them to offer source, although that might be workable after time. One might consider the old RT and PS/2 unices (AOS and AIX 1 and 2) to be orphanware. I am sure there are others. Perhaps even the 3Bx kind of thing could be suitably binary hobby licensed. I would have a hard time imagining that SCO would consider the old ATT boxes any sort of a moneymaker these days. Where SCO would feel that we are too close to home, then maybe only a binary license of some sort would be all that we could collectively expect. What about something like 386BSD? That began in the 4.3BSD era if I am reading things corectly, and it sure walks and quacks like the real thing. These kinds of things, I would think, are of merit to keep archives of, for the purposes and goals that we collectively seem be be heading towards. Is this reasonable? Just thinking out loud..... If nothing else, the discussion is good..... Bob Keys Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA14465 for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 00:16:35 +1000 (EST) >From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Tue Aug 4 00:11:52 1998 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA14460 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 00:16:29 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA17764; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:11:54 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199808031411.KAA17764(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: The UNIX Heritage Society In-Reply-To: <199808031311.AA10670(a)world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Aug 3, 98 09:11:02 am" To: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:11:52 -0400 (EDT) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > Preservation in teh case of PDP-11 (and otehr 16bit) was needed or it may > have been lost. One assumes the license grantors actually have complete > sources. In the case of at least on other OS they had the license but > little of the code. This is a most interesting point, and one we all need to consider. I will interpret from Allison's remarks that CP/M may be being referred to here. In that case, it was mostly all lost sources, and only a little was found (and a lot of leftovers kept by the early hacker types). It would NOT have been possible to recreate or resurrect it without such help. The one thing that I have noted in the 28 years I have played with computers (only the last 20 seriously), is that sources tend to get very lost in the passage of time. Alas, if you try to recreate or resurrect the old early boxes, you are lost without the tidbits of sources, binaries, and OS notes that seem to be all to vaporware, anymore. So much of it is NOT kept around by the companies. And, many of the companies are bellyup, or have passed through so many hands, that the original materials are long forgotten or gone. Somehow, we need to collectively keep enough of the bits and pieces so that down the road, others may be able to see what it was actually all about. I heartily applaud the efforts of all the various groups like the PUPS, and the efforts of folks like Warren and Kirk to keep the unix flavors alive. > The key here is there are two types of OSs, retired(not commercially > viable or no support) and those that have commercial value. I would expect that our collective interests center on the former, even though some/many of us may dabble in it commercially/professionally. Bob Keys Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA17033 for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 12:23:27 +1000 (EST) >From Joerg Micheel <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> Tue Aug 4 12:14:43 1998 Received: from nighthawk.iti.gov.sg (nighthawk.iti.gov.sg [192.122.131.51]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA17028 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 12:23:19 +1000 (EST) Received: (from mailer@localhost) by nighthawk.iti.gov.sg (8.6.11/8.6.11) id KAA20343; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 10:34:48 +0800 Received: from mailhub.iti.gov.sg(192.122.132.132) by nighthawk.iti.gov.sg via smap (V1.3) id sma020334; Tue Aug 4 10:34:31 1998 Received: (from joerg@localhost) by iti.gov.sg (8.8.8/8.8.5) id KAA29944; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 10:14:43 +0800 (SGT) Message-ID: <19980804101443.54947(a)krdl.org.sg> Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 10:14:43 +0800 From: Joerg Micheel <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Extending the cheap SCO src license References: <199808030251.MAA13502(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <199808031342.JAA17517(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <199808031342.JAA17517(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>; from User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:42:53AM -0400 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:42:53AM -0400, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote: > > After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V > > cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have > > the crippled System V for the PDP-11. > > Do any of us really want SysV? One can get that in a free license for unixware > or such, as it is, if I am understanding things correctly. Sure, try writing a driver or some stuff that involves kernel variables - and you are stuck. Actually, this reminds me that Sun did a large buy-out for System V and the procedure for getting Solaris kernel sources has become dramatically more easy. They might still send it to you for a nominal fee (last time DM 4,600), as long as you use it for non-commercial purposes (e.g. universities, research institutes). Anybody more detailed information on this ? Joerg ---- Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 7705577 Kent Ridge Digital Labs (pron: curdle) Fax: +65 7795966 11 Science Park Road Pager: +65 96016020 Singapore Science Park II Plan: Troubleshooting ATM 117685 Singapore Networks and Applications Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA17300 for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:15:06 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Aug 4 14:15:23 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA17295 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:15:01 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA17823; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:15:23 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199808040415.OAA17823(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Extending the cheap SCO src license To: rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:15:23 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199808031342.JAA17517(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> from "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" at "Aug 3, 98 09:42:53 am" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys: > Do any of us really want SysV? Not me :-) > Where SCO would feel that we are too close to home, then maybe only a > binary license of some sort would be all that we could collectively expect. > What about something like 386BSD? That began in the 4.3BSD era if I am I've got 386BSD 0.1 sources, but no binaries. > reading things corectly, and it sure walks and quacks like the real thing. > These kinds of things, I would think, are of merit to keep archives of, > for the purposes and goals that we collectively seem be be heading towards. I collect most anything :-) UNIX, Unix, [1234]BSD, Minix etc etc. Don't really want System III or V though, or Slowaris. Ciao, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17431 for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 15:10:08 +1000 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Aug 4 15:09:47 1998 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA17426 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 15:10:02 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id OAA16006; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:39:49 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id OAA00313; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:39:47 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980804143947.M25942(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:39:47 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Extending the cheap SCO src license References: <199808030251.MAA13502(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <199808031342.JAA17517(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199808031342.JAA17517(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>; from User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:42:53AM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Monday, 3 August 1998 at 9:42:53 -0400, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote: >>> OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bit >>> systems. We'd like to get, say, System V as well. >>> >>> Greg >> >> After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V >> cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have >> the crippled System V for the PDP-11. > > Do any of us really want SysV? One can get that in a free license for unixware > or such, as it is, if I am understanding things correctly. You don't get the source with UnixWare. And yes, I can conceive that the sources of old versions of System V could be of interest, if only for the computer etymologist. I have a Tandem LXN (68020 based SMP machine, about 11 years old) which ran an interesting version of System V.2 and V.3.0. While I was still at Tandem, I backed up the last versions of the source (in Austin TX), and unfortunately I didn't discover that the backup failed until I got back to Germany. AFAIK the sources are lost forever: they scrapped the machine shortly after. >> You might be lucky to get System III added to the source license, and separate >> binary-only licenses for certain System V systems. That's another battle, tho. > > Gee, I sense I have stirred up a wee bit of a hornets nest. For the sake of > discussion, maybe that is good. > > What I had originally thought was that it might be possible to include under > the PUPS banner (or whatever it is to be called {PUPS is fine to me}), to > include orphan unices. Let me suggest that what I mean by orphan unices is > a flavor of unix in binary or source that is essentially commercially past > history. That would specifically be to keep from camping on SCO's > income. In principle, not a bad idea. > What might be considered an orphan unix? One might consider things > like the BSD tree to be orphan, as it relates to non-commercial use > (one would consider BSDI commercial, but most of the others > non-commercial maybe). Well, there are plenty of people actively working on the BSD tree. I wouldn't consider it orphan. > One might consider something like Coherent to be non-commercial anymore. > Although that is not a ``true'' unix, it sure looks and feels the same > and quacks very much like a V7 or early SysV. Xenix falls into the same > quacks like a duck category. Although Xenix is still used commercially, > it may be be time to begin to consider that we might, in due time, aproach > SCO to offer a hobby style Xenix license of some sort. I think you would run into extreme resistance inside SCO at the moment, more than you would for, say, System V Release 1. Although it's obsolete, it wasn't that long ago (3 years?) that it was earning more money for SCO than Open Deathtrap was. > I would not expect them to offer source, although that might be > workable after time. One might consider the old RT and PS/2 unices > (AOS and AIX 1 and 2) to be orphanware. I am sure there are others. > Perhaps even the 3Bx kind of thing could be suitably binary hobby > licensed. I would have a hard time imagining that SCO would > consider the old ATT boxes any sort of a moneymaker these days. > Where SCO would feel that we are too close to home, then maybe only > a binary license of some sort would be all that we could > collectively expect. What would you do with a binary license. > What about something like 386BSD? That began in the 4.3BSD era if I > am reading things corectly, and it sure walks and quacks like the > real thing. These kinds of things, I would think, are of merit to > keep archives of, for the purposes and goals that we collectively > seem be be heading towards. FWIW, 386BSD is available in source form. Dr. Dobbs still has a CD-ROM that you can buy. But 386BSD also evolved into FreeBSD, NetBSD and OpenBSD, all of which are still alive, kicking and further developing. Anything but orphans. I'm writing this on a FreeBSD machine. > If nothing else, the discussion is good..... Definitely. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA18632 for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 22:56:43 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 9 months

Re: The Unix Society

by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu

Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes: > If having a source license was a requirement for the systems we cover, > then I'd say this was pretty reasonable. It is, isn't it? Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12785 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:45:30 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Aug 3 13:45:52 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA12780 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:45:26 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA15453 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:45:52 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199808030345.NAA15453(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: What to do now with PUPS To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:45:52 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <9808030315.AA18511(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Aug 2, 98 11:15:15 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Michael Sokolov: > As I have said all along, PUPS's pre-hung-up'ness on PDP-11s has been > the source of a lot of grief for us the VAX lovers. It is the reason why > SCO's license talks so much about PDP-11s and the reason I have had so much > trouble obtaining the software I need, since everyone believes that the SCO > license is limited to 16-bit toys. Of course it is not, and in fact it is > the reason why Marshall Kirk McKusick is releasing the CD-ROMs with CSRG's > code (80% of which is 32-bit), but thanks to PUPS's pre-hung-up'ness on > PDP-11s, try to explain this to people! > > Thanks Daemon the gang is finally beginning to realize that UNIX(R) runs > on more than just PDP-11s. > > Michael Sokolov I'd just like to comment on Michael's e-mail, just for the record. The PDP-11 UNIX Preservation Society was, at one point, just me. I'd had help from Steven Schultz, Tim Shoppa, John Wilson and Torsten Hippe, and my personal goal was to get copies of 6th and 7th Edition Unix, for historical reasons. Since then, people with similar interests have accumulated. We've set up a mailing list, web page etc. Steven and I took months to lobby SCO to make source licenses available. We started in late '95/early '96. Again, we were driven by our own personal goals of making cheap licenses for PDP-11 UNIXes available. We were also guided by the web-based survey, see http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/pdpquiz_sum.html, which showed an awful lot more interest for PDP-11 UNIXes than 32-bit UNIXes. Yes, PUPS has been hung up on PDP-11s. There's no denying that. It's a result of the personal drives that Steven, I, and the other active members of the mailing list have. If we have caused grief to the VAX users, it was unintentional. The license that we negotiated with SCO was based as much on our personal goals as on pragmatics. During the negotiations, it became apparent that: + There was a substantial bloc at SCO who didn't want ANY license + For the rest, Research Editions 1 to 7 was ok + 32V was dubious: most people didn't want this licensed + System III was also dubious + System V was definitely right out: nobody wanted this licensed The fact that we got 32V on the SCO license was, in my opinion, damn lucky, even though I pushed and pushed and pushed for this to be included. SCO, for their part, probably feel that they have limited the `damage' by only licensing the 16-bit systems, and 32V (grudgingly). Now why was I pushing 32V so hard? Because I knew it would open the path for CSRG to release the BSD flavours. This is the ONLY reason why I fought so hard for it to be included in the license. Hopefully this has filled in some of the background on the behind-the-scenes work. I agree that, up to now, the effort has concentrated on the 16-bit systems. I knew that, by getting 32V into the license, it would give scope for the 32-bit systems. At the same time, there was NO WAY that SCO would have licensed any other 32-bit system. The license we have reflects SCO's legal concerns as much as the negotiators' PDP preference. However, 32V is licensed, and Kirk will be selling the CRSG BSD releases on a 4-CD set next week. A fair proportion of PDP-11 UNIX history has been saved. Now it's time for those with a preference for other systems to extend what has been achieved. Go for it! Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12836 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:03:57 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Aug 3 14:04:19 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA12831 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:03:53 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA15507 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:04:19 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199808030404.OAA15507(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: The UNIX Heritage Society To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:04:19 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <19980803125616.F25574(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 12:56:16 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Greg Lehey: Michael writes: > > No, no, PLEASE get rid of that "preservation" stigma. It's like a brand > > on a slave, a constant reminder of limits and constraints. Terms like > > "preservation", "historical", "heritage", "primordial", "ancient", etc. all > > suggest something of purely historical value. This is EXTREMELY insulting > > to those of us for whom True UNIX(R) is the ONLY multiuser operating > > system. > > I would have a problem being a "Patriot". > > Greg Heritage means: that which may be inherited. I think this is appropriate, as we have all inherited a wonderful system from Ken and Dennis. In fact, we've inherited the UNIX paradigm, which influences the way we think. My dictionary says a patriot is one who is zealous for his country's freedom or rights, and a zealot is an uncompromising or extreme partisan or fanatic. I would also have a problem being a "Patriot". If I was uncompromising, we would have no cheap SCO license. I don't think we need to retro-fit a name into the PUPS acronym. I'm still in favour of The UNIX Heritage Society. For those unaccustomed to the amount of traffic on the PUPS list, don't forget that you can switch to the digest version. echo 'subscribe pups-digest' | mail majordomo(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12985 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:54:42 +1000 (EST) >From Joerg Micheel <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> Mon Aug 3 14:00:42 1998 Received: from nighthawk.iti.gov.sg (nighthawk.iti.gov.sg [192.122.131.51]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA12980 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:54:35 +1000 (EST) Received: (from mailer@localhost) by nighthawk.iti.gov.sg (8.6.11/8.6.11) id MAA12622; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:20:46 +0800 Received: from mailhub.iti.gov.sg(192.122.132.132) by nighthawk.iti.gov.sg via smap (V1.3) id sma012619; Mon Aug 3 12:20:28 1998 Received: (from joerg@localhost) by iti.gov.sg (8.8.8/8.8.5) id MAA04106; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:00:43 +0800 (SGT) Message-ID: <19980803120042.27955(a)krdl.org.sg> Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:00:42 +0800 From: Joerg Micheel <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: The Unix Society References: <9808030331.AA18573(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <9808030331.AA18573(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 11:31:14PM -0400 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Mikhail, On Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 11:31:14PM -0400, Michael Sokolov wrote: > > Do you get it know? Probably not. Oh well. Last time I met Greg he was still able to read, although he needs glasses already. I think that his glasses actually do a very good job since he was figuring that the license explicitely blocks access to System V and friends (Please read your own email again). The thing is that there are people out there who really enjoy the PDP-11 as a smart machine. Those people presumably have written code for this machine in assembler. Another group of people is interested in the early roots of unix. The PDP-11 in that case serves as a host for this interest. But the historic interest does not stop at the hardware of the PDP-11, it is rather an interest in the full life cycle of the OS. 32V, while important, is really a hack rather than a 32bit port of the UNIX or BSD operating system. Those people who make statements about 32bit UNIX not being available are very likely aware of this fact, either because they where there at the time this happend, or, like myself, have devoured every interesting UNIX book around and have also come across Peter H. Salus' A quater century of UNIX. You might find it interesting to read, too. With respect to PUPS I do understand that we are interested in the history of UNIX and that the term Warren coined fits exactly our idea. There is nothing wrong with renaming PUPS but leave the email alias as it is. Those interested in the history of the society (we are getting recursive on history by now) can read on the Web Page that we originally dealt with the Preservation of the PDP-11 UNIX only. Regards, Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 7705577 Kent Ridge Digital Labs (pron: curdle) Fax: +65 7795966 11 Science Park Road Pager: +65 96016020 Singapore Science Park II Plan: Troubleshooting ATM 117685 Singapore Networks and Applications Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA13010 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 15:00:35 +1000 (EST) >From Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com> Mon Aug 3 15:00:18 1998 Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA13005 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 15:00:29 +1000 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id BAA09014; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 01:00:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA11935; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 22:00:18 -0700 Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 22:00:18 -0700 (PST) From: Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com> To: PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: The Unix Society In-Reply-To: <199808022335.JAA12929(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <Pine.SGI.3.95.980802215441.8525C-100000(a)world.std.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, 3 Aug 1998, Warren Toomey wrote: > Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste > thing. I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven, > Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these systems. > > We need a sub-committee to come up with a new name :-) My next suggestion is > /The UNIX Heritage Society/i I seem to recall a direct quote of either Thompson or Ritchie saying that they'd intended to use the name "Unix" instead of "UNIX" but that is what the OS was trademarked with by the Bell Labs lawyers. It may have been on one of their personal web pages that I read it. -brian. --- Brian "JARAI" Chase | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ | VAXZilla LIVES!!! Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA14184 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 23:11:15 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 9 months

Re: The Unix Society

by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu

Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> writes: > OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bis > systems. You still don't get it. WRONG! Quoting from the license text: > 3. LICENSED SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS > > The SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS to which SCO grants rights under this > Agreement are restricted to the following UNIX Operating Systems, > including SUCCESSOR OPERATING SYSTEMs, that operate on the 16-Bit > PDP-11 CPU and early versions of the 32-Bit UNIX Operating System ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > with specific exclusion of UNIX System V and successor operating > systems: > > 16-Bit UNIX Editions 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 > 32-bit 32V ^^^^^^^^^^^ Do you get it know? Probably not. Oh well. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12732 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:42:26 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 9 months

Re: The Unix Society

by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu

Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> writes: > [...] an SCO licence for 16 bit UNIX. If we > do it now, there will never be a license for 32 bit UNIX. Excuse me, sir, I have to make a point here. The SCO license _DOES_ cover 32-bit UNIX(R), namely 32V! 32V is the first version of UNIX for 32- bit machines aka VAXen, and it's the mother of EVERYTHING known today as West Coast UNIX, from 3BSD to the freebies, whether for VAXen or other 32- bit CPUs. As I have said all along, PUPS's pre-hung-up'ness on PDP-11s has been the source of a lot of grief for us the VAX lovers. It is the reason why SCO's license talks so much about PDP-11s and the reason I have had so much trouble obtaining the software I need, since everyone believes that the SCO license is limited to 16-bit toys. Of course it is not, and in fact it is the reason why Marshall Kirk McKusick is releasing the CD-ROMs with CSRG's code (80% of which is 32-bit), but thanks to PUPS's pre-hung-up'ness on PDP-11s, try to explain this to people! Thanks Daemon the gang is finally beginning to realize that UNIX(R) runs on more than just PDP-11s. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12458 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:15:14 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Aug 3 13:15:35 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA12453 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:15:10 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA15369 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:15:35 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199808030315.NAA15369(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Extending the cheap SCO src license To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:15:35 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <19980803123629.E25574(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 12:36:29 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Greg Lehey: > > After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V > > cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have > > the crippled System V for the PDP-11. > > Yet. What did the situation look like for the Seventh Edition 5 years > ago? I was just saying we shouldn't accept the status quo, not that > we should go tilting at windmills. > Greg I agree that we should continue to lobby SCO, and more importantly so now that we have a foothold. I'm just pointing out the current `reality', but I'm sure it will change over time. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12485 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:16:35 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Aug 3 13:16:57 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA12480 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:16:32 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA15399 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:16:57 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199808030316.NAA15399(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: The Unix Society To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:16:57 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <9808030312.AA18488(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Aug 2, 98 11:12:49 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Michael Sokolov: > Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes: > > Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste > > thing. > > It is absolutely crucial, since it emphasizes that we are talking about > the one single system named UNIX, rather than any of its teenage "free" > clones. If having a source license was a requirement for the systems we cover, then I'd say this was pretty reasonable. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12572 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:26:33 +1000 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Aug 3 13:26:16 1998 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA12559 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:26:26 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA12218; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:56:16 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id MAA25780; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:56:16 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980803125616.F25574(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:56:16 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: The Unix Society References: <9808030314.AA18492(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <9808030314.AA18492(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 11:14:16PM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 23:14:16 -0400, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes: >> If this is the case, the "Preservation" part of PUPS is OK, since >> what we are trying to do is preserve the use of this strain of >> system software. > > No, no, PLEASE get rid of that "preservation" stigma. It's like a brand > on a slave, a constant reminder of limits and constraints. Terms like > "preservation", "historical", "heritage", "primordial", "ancient", etc. all > suggest something of purely historical value. This is EXTREMELY insulting > to those of us for whom True UNIX(R) is the ONLY multiuser operating > system. I would have a problem being a "Patriot". Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12628 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:30:47 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 9 months

Re: The Unix Society

by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu

Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes: > I'd disagree with that last sentence, as it excludes System V. Yes, you are right. > Keep it to systems which require a UNIX source license, then? Yes! Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12448 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:14:50 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 9 months

The Unix Society

by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu

Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes: > I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven, > Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these > systems. Yes! However, later you write: > My next suggestion is > /The UNIX Heritage Society/i Nee, see below. David C. Jenner <djenner(a)halcyon.com> writes: > If this is the case, the "Preservation" part of PUPS is OK, since > what we are trying to do is preserve the use of this strain of > system software. No, no, PLEASE get rid of that "preservation" stigma. It's like a brand on a slave, a constant reminder of limits and constraints. Terms like "preservation", "historical", "heritage", "primordial", "ancient", etc. all suggest something of purely historical value. This is EXTREMELY insulting to those of us for whom True UNIX(R) is the ONLY multiuser operating system. > Primordial Unix Preservation Society. Same problem. Why not Proper UNIX(R) Patriot Society? > (I really don't want to change my "pups" email alias!) I agree. Hence my suggestion above. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12441 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:14:13 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 9 months

Re: The Unix Society

by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu

Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes: > Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste > thing. It is absolutely crucial, since it emphasizes that we are talking about the one single system named UNIX, rather than any of its teenage "free" clones. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12427 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:13:47 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 9 months

Re: The Unix Society

by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu

Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> wrote: > While I disagree with Michael's idea of total world domination by Vaxen > :-), I believe such a society will be composed of a multitude of > different beliefs, ideas, sub-goals and drives. So please bear this in > mind when mailing to the mailing list!!! Oh, I'm not saying that VAXen should dominate the mailing list or the society, I'm simply saying that my project is to turn them from "retrocomputing" into a fully competitive UNIX platform. > My main sub-goal is to provide a home for the PDP-11 stuff. I don't yet > have the disk space for all the other Unix platforms. Keep in mind, though, that the UNIX(R) mainstream is PDP-11 _AND_ VAX. > Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the > preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present. > I nominate the name The Unix Society and > Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding > using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective. I personally think it's a very bad idea to extend the society to cover freebies. Let's keep it limited to software that requires an SCO or equivalent license. Why? Because otherwise it loses its identity. You can't cover all UNIX and "Unix" in the world. Huge organizations like USENIX already exist for this purpose. I believe the purpose of the society should be to provide a home for the homeless. Here is what I mean by that. People using "free Unices" already have scores of mailing lists and newsgroups available to them. The only ones who are always left out are the poor patriots of True Licensed UNIX(R). So far PUPS has been the only possible home for them. Why not have a Proper UNIX(R) Patriot Society which will do the same thing PUPS does now (provide a central clearinghouse for all licensed UNIX(R), keep the central database of SCO license holders, discuss licensing issues), but without restricting it to PDP-11s or to mere preservation? I don't think we need a huge society with chapters and subchapters to cover every possible use of every possible OS. People who want to use a particular OS in a particular way should have their own mailing lists to discuss really specific issues like hardware, etc. That's what I will do for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus when it actually sees the light of day. (For now it has a closed consortium. My experience has been that in such early stages of development keeping discussions on a public list leads to nothing except accusations of "vaporware" and flame wars.) PUPS should be a central clearinghouse for licensed UNIX(R), nothing more. Its scope should be exactly equal to the scope of the SCO license. Just my two bits. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12041 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:30:19 +1000 (EST) >From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Mon Aug 3 11:28:56 1998 Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (mgate.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12036 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:30:13 +1000 (EST) Received: from halcyon.com (blv-lx103-ip27.nwnexus.net [206.63.41.77]) by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA14923; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 18:29:44 -0700 Message-ID: <35C51258.2C635E5A(a)halcyon.com> Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 18:28:56 -0700 From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Reply-To: djenner(a)halcyon.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: The Unix Society References: <9808030052.AA18331(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I think he has a point here: Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers. In fact, an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license. If this is the case, the "Preservation" part of PUPS is OK, since what we are trying to do is preserve the use of this strain of system software. As to the first P, if not PDP(-11), then what it should refer to is the original strain of Unix--the Primordial Unix. Hence: Primordial Unix Preservation Society. (I really don't want to change my "pups" email alias!) Dave Michael Sokolov wrote: > > Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> wrote: > > While I disagree with Michael's idea of total world domination by Vaxen > > :-), I believe such a society will be composed of a multitude of > > different beliefs, ideas, sub-goals and drives. So please bear this in > > mind when mailing to the mailing list!!! > > Oh, I'm not saying that VAXen should dominate the mailing list or the > society, I'm simply saying that my project is to turn them from > "retrocomputing" into a fully competitive UNIX platform. > > > My main sub-goal is to provide a home for the PDP-11 stuff. I don't yet > > have the disk space for all the other Unix platforms. > > Keep in mind, though, that the UNIX(R) mainstream is PDP-11 _AND_ VAX. > > > Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the > > preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present. > > I nominate the name The Unix Society > > and > > > Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding > > using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective. > > I personally think it's a very bad idea to extend the society to cover > freebies. Let's keep it limited to software that requires an SCO or > equivalent license. Why? Because otherwise it loses its identity. You can't > cover all UNIX and "Unix" in the world. Huge organizations like USENIX > already exist for this purpose. I believe the purpose of the society should > be to provide a home for the homeless. Here is what I mean by that. People > using "free Unices" already have scores of mailing lists and newsgroups > available to them. The only ones who are always left out are the poor > patriots of True Licensed UNIX(R). So far PUPS has been the only possible > home for them. > > Why not have a Proper UNIX(R) Patriot Society which will do the same > thing PUPS does now (provide a central clearinghouse for all licensed > UNIX(R), keep the central database of SCO license holders, discuss > licensing issues), but without restricting it to PDP-11s or to mere > preservation? I don't think we need a huge society with chapters and > subchapters to cover every possible use of every possible OS. People who > want to use a particular OS in a particular way should have their own > mailing lists to discuss really specific issues like hardware, etc. That's > what I will do for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus when it actually sees the light of > day. (For now it has a closed consortium. My experience has been that in > such early stages of development keeping discussions on a public list leads > to nothing except accusations of "vaporware" and flame wars.) PUPS should > be a central clearinghouse for licensed UNIX(R), nothing more. Its scope > should be exactly equal to the scope of the SCO license. > > Just my two bits. > > Sincerely, > Michael Sokolov > Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) > ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12074 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:43:46 +1000 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Aug 3 11:43:38 1998 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12069 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:43:41 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA11880; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:13:38 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id LAA25458; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:13:38 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980803111338.W21892(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:13:38 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: djenner(a)halcyon.com, Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: The Unix Society References: <9808030052.AA18331(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> <35C51258.2C635E5A(a)halcyon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <35C51258.2C635E5A(a)halcyon.com>; from David C. Jenner on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 06:28:56PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 18:28:56 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote: > I think he has a point here: > > Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO > (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers. In fact, > an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors > (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license. That's rather conservative, isn't it? If we had done that previously, there would never now have been an SCO licence for 16 bit UNIX. If we do it now, there will never be a license for 32 bit UNIX. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12100 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:50:20 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Aug 3 11:50:42 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12095 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:50:17 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA13307 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:50:42 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199808030150.LAA13307(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: The Unix Heritage Society To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:50:42 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <19980803111338.W21892(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 11:13:38 am" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Greg Lehey: > On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 18:28:56 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote: > > I think he has a point here: > > > > Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO > > (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers. In fact, > > an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors > > (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license. > > That's rather conservative, isn't it? If we had done that previously, > there would never now have been an SCO licence for 16 bit UNIX. If we > do it now, there will never be a license for 32 bit UNIX. Keep it to systems which require a UNIX source license, then? Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12118 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:53:44 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Aug 3 11:54:06 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12113 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:53:41 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA13334; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:54:06 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199808030154.LAA13334(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: The Unix Heritage Society To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:54:06 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199808030150.LAA13307(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "Aug 3, 98 11:50:42 am" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Warren Toomey: > Keep it to systems which require a UNIX source license, then? And lobby SCO for more encompassing cheap UNIX source licenses too. I forgot to add this sentence. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12252 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:33:19 +1000 (EST) >From Joerg Micheel <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> Mon Aug 3 12:23:17 1998 Received: from nighthawk.iti.gov.sg (nighthawk.iti.gov.sg [192.122.131.51]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA12246 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:33:10 +1000 (EST) Received: (from mailer@localhost) by nighthawk.iti.gov.sg (8.6.11/8.6.11) id KAA11852; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:43:19 +0800 Received: from mailhub.iti.gov.sg(192.122.132.132) by nighthawk.iti.gov.sg via smap (V1.3) id sma011850; Mon Aug 3 10:43:02 1998 Received: (from joerg@localhost) by iti.gov.sg (8.8.8/8.8.5) id KAA00392; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:23:17 +0800 (SGT) Message-ID: <19980803102317.65086(a)krdl.org.sg> Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:23:17 +0800 From: Joerg Micheel <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Cc: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, grog(a)begemot.org Subject: Re: The Unix Society References: <19980803085553.H21892(a)freebie.lemis.com> <199808022335.JAA12929(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <19980803092452.N21892(a)freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19980803092452.N21892(a)freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:24:52AM +0930 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:24:52AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Monday, 3 August 1998 at 9:35:17 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > > In article by Greg Lehey: > >>> Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the > >>> preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present. > >>> I nominate the name The Unix Society ... > >>> Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding > >>> using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective. > >> > >> I find the spelling "Unix" looks like the kind of mistake that > >> people make when they're not aware of these niceties, so I'd prefer > >> not to use it. > >> > >> More generally, though, there's nothing in the name that suggests > >> anything to do with the history of the system. For all it says to the > >> outside world, it's a new competitor to USENIX. > > > > Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste > > thing. I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven, > > Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these systems. > > > > We need a sub-committee to come up with a new name :-) My next suggestion is > > /The UNIX Heritage Society/i > > Sounds a lot better. Time for some other comments, when the rest of > the world wakes up. Awake! I fully agree with all of Greg's statements. Btw. the original way of writing UNIX was actually unix. Small caps. Of course, using troff you could take advantage of scaling fonts and say \s-2UNIX\s+2. I'm not sure about the feeling of dmr and colleagues with respect to UNIX, but I remember him having a heavy disrespect for STREAMS as compared to streams. The thing is that with email when saying STREAMS you actually shout, which non of us intend to. Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 7705577 Kent Ridge Digital Labs (pron: curdle) Fax: +65 7795966 11 Science Park Road Pager: +65 96016020 Singapore Science Park II Plan: Troubleshooting ATM 117685 Singapore Networks and Applications Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12295 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:43:43 +1000 (EST) >From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Mon Aug 3 12:41:58 1998 Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (mgate.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA12290 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:43:37 +1000 (EST) Received: from halcyon.com (blv-lx103-ip27.nwnexus.net [206.63.41.77]) by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA15396; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 19:42:50 -0700 Message-ID: <35C52376.7A546F4(a)halcyon.com> Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 19:41:58 -0700 From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Reply-To: djenner(a)halcyon.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> CC: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: The Unix Society References: <9808030052.AA18331(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> <35C51258.2C635E5A(a)halcyon.com> <19980803111338.W21892(a)freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I don't think I'm saying what you think I said? I not trying to restrict it to nothing, or even not 32-bit. But then it's Sunday night here, and Monday morning there, so maybe I'm not clear about what I said!? Dave Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 18:28:56 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote: > > I think he has a point here: > > > > Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO > > (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers. In fact, > > an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors > > (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license. > > That's rather conservative, isn't it? If we had done that previously, > there would never now have been an SCO licence for 16 bit UNIX. If we > do it now, there will never be a license for 32 bit UNIX. > > Greg Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12306 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:45:16 +1000 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Aug 3 12:44:55 1998 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA12301 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:45:11 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA12075; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:15:01 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id MAA25665; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:14:56 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980803121455.D25574(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:14:55 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: djenner(a)halcyon.com Cc: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: The Unix Society References: <9808030052.AA18331(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> <35C51258.2C635E5A(a)halcyon.com> <19980803111338.W21892(a)freebie.lemis.com> <35C52376.7A546F4(a)halcyon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <35C52376.7A546F4(a)halcyon.com>; from David C. Jenner on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 07:41:58PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 19:41:58 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote: > I don't think I'm saying what you think I said? I not trying to > restrict it to nothing, or even not 32-bit. > > But then it's Sunday night here, and Monday morning there, so maybe > I'm not clear about what I said!? > > Greg Lehey wrote: >> >> On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 18:28:56 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote: >>> I think he has a point here: >>> >>> Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO >>> (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers. In fact, >>> an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors >>> (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license. OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bis systems. We'd like to get, say, System V as well. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12348 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:51:00 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Aug 3 12:51:22 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA12343 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:50:56 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA13502 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:51:22 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199808030251.MAA13502(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Extending the cheap SCO src license To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:51:22 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <19980803121455.D25574(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 12:14:55 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Greg Lehey: > OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bit > systems. We'd like to get, say, System V as well. > > Greg After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have the crippled System V for the PDP-11. You might be lucky to get System III added to the source license, and separate binary-only licenses for certain System V systems. That's another battle, tho. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12393 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:06:41 +1000 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Aug 3 13:06:29 1998 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA12388 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:06:37 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA12131; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:36:30 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id MAA25734; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:36:29 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980803123629.E25574(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:36:29 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Extending the cheap SCO src license References: <19980803121455.D25574(a)freebie.lemis.com> <199808030251.MAA13502(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199808030251.MAA13502(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 12:51:22PM +1000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Monday, 3 August 1998 at 12:51:22 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Greg Lehey: >> OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bit >> systems. We'd like to get, say, System V as well. > > After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V > cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have > the crippled System V for the PDP-11. Yet. What did the situation look like for the Seventh Edition 5 years ago? > You might be lucky to get System III added to the source license, > and separate binary-only licenses for certain System V > systems. That's another battle, tho. Sure. I was just saying we shouldn't accept the status quo, not that we should go tilting at windmills. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12418 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:12:22 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 9 months

Re: Thoughts on vaxen....

by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu

"User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> wrote: > What should one look for in a VAX? > > Say I was walking along through our state surplus agency (and I do that > regularly these days, since all kinds of neato unicy goodies are popping > up from a lot of folks going to NT toys), what kind of parts and pieces > would I need to put together a minimal VAX, suited to some flavor of > homegrown 32V/3BSD/4BSD, etc. > [...] > So, what parts by name and number should I keep an eye out for, so > that enough of something might be cobbled together to work? Basically, you need a box that says "VAX" on it. :-) Now, there are all kinds of different VAXen. If you want one that's capable of running something other than VMS, you have to be really careful. 32V, 3BSD, and 4.0BSD run on the original VAX-11/780 ONLY. There is a VERY low probability of you (or me) ever finding one. 4.1BSD and 4.2BSD extend this to 11/750 and 11/730, respectively, but these are still very big and scarce beasts. If you are a REAL VAX patriot (one for whom VAXen are the ONLY computers), none of this should matter to you anyway, since versions of UNIX before 4.3BSD are unfit for production use on ARPA Internet (the ones before 4.2BSD lack any networking whatsoever, and 4.2BSD lacks DNS). If your OS of choice is 4.3BSD, 4.3BSD-Tahoe, or 4.3BSD-Reno, you are in a much better shape. All of them have kernel support for MicroVAX II, and Reno (and possibly Tahoe) has support for MicroVAX III. It's still very rudimentary, though. I personally haven't been able to get it booted yet! Seeing how much work remains to be done to get Berkeley UNIX running on MicroVAXen, I have decided to take a crack at it myself. I am actively working on extending the VAX hardware support in 4.3BSD to MicroVAXen and everything else not currently supported. My goal is to support everything from 11/780 to 10000. Total world VAX domination! This is very long-term, though, and you probably want something sooner. When I was faced with a pressing need to get one of my VAXen up and running in May, my solution was (and still is) to run Ultrix. True, not having the sources is VERY frustrating, and some DECisms like subsets, setld, BIND/Hesiod, etc. really piss me off, but presently this is the closest you can get to True VAX UNIX(R) that runs on something you or I can get our hands on. (A note for those who subscribe both to this list and to port-vax(a)netbsd.org. PLEASE don't advertise your freebie toy here. Fortunately, this list is for LICENSED UNIX(R).) If you want to assemble your VAX from parts, first realize that some of them (BabyVAXen in my terminology) consist of a single system board. On the other end of the spectrum there are huge beasts. Although they do consist of a myriad of boards, they are so specialized that you are very unlikely to ever find a board for one laying separately. The only VAXen that one can realistically build from parts are Q-bus ones. To build one, you need a Q- bus enclosure with a Q22-bus backplane, a Q-bus VAX CPU (KA6xx), and, unless your CPU has on-board Ethernet and DSSI, Q-bus disk and tape controllers and a Q-bus Ethernet interface (DEQNA or DELQA). Of course, you also need the disk and tape drives themselves. Good luck! Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA09408 for pups-liszt; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 21:18:19 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sun Aug 2 21:18:34 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA09403 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 21:18:14 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA11148 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 21:18:34 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199808021118.VAA11148(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: The Unix Society To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 21:18:34 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present. I nominate the name The Unix Society Such a society could have chapters which focus on particular things like Vax Unixes, PDP-11 Unixes etc., but share common high-level goals. While I disagree with Michael's idea of total world domination by Vaxen :-), I believe such a society will be composed of a multitude of different beliefs, ideas, sub-goals and drives. So please bear this in mind when mailing to the mailing list!!! My main sub-goal is to provide a home for the PDP-11 stuff. I don't yet have the disk space for all the other Unix platforms. Mail yesterday from Kirk McKusick says that the 4-CD BSD set should be ready within a matter of days. Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA10218 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 01:42:36 +1000 (EST) >From Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> Mon Aug 3 01:42:14 1998 Received: from aiai.ed.ac.uk (eigg.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.41.7]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA10212 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 01:42:28 +1000 (EST) Received: from dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk (dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.105.17]) by aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA24282; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 16:42:15 +0100 (BST) Received: (tfb@localhost) by dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) id QAA06412; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 16:42:14 +0100 Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 16:42:14 +0100 Message-Id: <199808021542.QAA06412(a)dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk> From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Cc: msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov), pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Thoughts on vaxen.... In-Reply-To: <199807312330.TAA09661(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> References: <9807311740.AA16914(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> <199807312330.TAA09661(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.14 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk * User Rdkeys Robert D Keys wrote: > What should one look for in a VAX? At least over here, the vax that `everyone' had was an 11/750, which is one reasonably-sized-but-very-heavy cabinet, with the CPU &c, and usually tape & disk in one or more other boxes. These things run 4.2 & 4.3 (and earlier I'm sure), and are a bit more tractable than the 11/780 (but slower). I'd guess that these things should be still available in large numbers, but maybe they've all been scrapped by now. There are many faster & smaller ones, but I always figured that the 750 & 780 were the most proper vaxen... --tim Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA11665 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:26:10 +1000 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Aug 3 09:25:53 1998 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA11658 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:26:01 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id IAA11512; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 08:55:54 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id IAA24983; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 08:55:53 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980803085553.H21892(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 08:55:53 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: The Unix Society References: <199808021118.VAA11148(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199808021118.VAA11148(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 09:18:34PM +1000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 21:18:34 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the > preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present. > I nominate the name The Unix Society > > Such a society could have chapters which focus on particular things like > Vax Unixes, PDP-11 Unixes etc., but share common high-level goals. > > While I disagree with Michael's idea of total world domination by Vaxen :-), > I believe such a society will be composed of a multitude of different beliefs, > ideas, sub-goals and drives. So please bear this in mind when mailing to the > mailing list!!! > > My main sub-goal is to provide a home for the PDP-11 stuff. I don't yet > have the disk space for all the other Unix platforms. Mail yesterday from > Kirk McKusick says that the 4-CD BSD set should be ready within a matter of > days. > > Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding > using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective. I don't see the difference in case between UNIX and Unix as significant in defining what part of speech it means, and we've already discovered that lawyers prefer UNIX, but will accept Unix if they want to make a case about violating the conditions of use of the name. I find the spelling "Unix" looks like the kind of mistake that people make when they're not aware of these niceties, so I'd prefer not to use it. More generally, though, there's nothing in the name that suggests anything to do with the history of the system. For all it says to the outside world, it's a new competitor to USENIX. OK, PUPS may be wearing thin, and I wasn't really serious with OUPS (I tried, unsuccesfully, to find an expansion for OOPS), but I think we need to look a little further if we want to change the name. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA11690 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:34:56 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Aug 3 09:35:17 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA11685 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:34:53 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA12929 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:35:17 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199808022335.JAA12929(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: The Unix Society To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:35:17 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <19980803085553.H21892(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 08:55:53 am" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Greg Lehey: > > Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the > > preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present. > > I nominate the name The Unix Society ... > > Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding > > using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective. > > I find the spelling "Unix" looks like the kind of mistake that > people make when they're not aware of these niceties, so I'd prefer > not to use it. > > More generally, though, there's nothing in the name that suggests > anything to do with the history of the system. For all it says to the > outside world, it's a new competitor to USENIX. Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste thing. I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven, Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these systems. We need a sub-committee to come up with a new name :-) My next suggestion is /The UNIX Heritage Society/i Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA11772 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:55:12 +1000 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Aug 3 09:54:52 1998 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA11767 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:55:07 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA11585; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:24:53 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id JAA25063; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:24:52 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980803092452.N21892(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:24:52 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: The Unix Society References: <19980803085553.H21892(a)freebie.lemis.com> <199808022335.JAA12929(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199808022335.JAA12929(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:35:17AM +1000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Monday, 3 August 1998 at 9:35:17 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Greg Lehey: >>> Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the >>> preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present. >>> I nominate the name The Unix Society ... >>> Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding >>> using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective. >> >> I find the spelling "Unix" looks like the kind of mistake that >> people make when they're not aware of these niceties, so I'd prefer >> not to use it. >> >> More generally, though, there's nothing in the name that suggests >> anything to do with the history of the system. For all it says to the >> outside world, it's a new competitor to USENIX. > > Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste > thing. I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven, > Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these systems. > > We need a sub-committee to come up with a new name :-) My next suggestion is > /The UNIX Heritage Society/i Sounds a lot better. Time for some other comments, when the rest of the world wakes up. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA11922 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:52:22 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 9 months

Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....)

by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu

Neil Johnson <neil(a)skatter.usask.ca> wrote: > I also suspect that most participants in the mailing list are > using PDP11 computers. My office is full of VAXen, but I don't envision a PDP-11 coming in any time soon. > If > other people do feel the PDP11 part of the name excludes them > perhaps a name change would be appropriate. Yes. Keep in mind that starting with 32V and 3BSD all cool and exciting development of True UNIX we're talking about here has been on VAXen, NOT on PDP-11s. Also almost all versions of VAX UNIX (I feel that 4.2BSD+ qualifies as "almost all") are networking, while PDP-11 UNIX (OK, with the exception of 2.11BSD) is not. You can't seriously expect a UNIXed PDP-11 do what people would normally expect a UNIX box to do. You CAN do this with a VAX (I'm the living proof). So, that "PDP-11" stuck in there is very insulting, implicitly suggesting that anyone who actually runs UNIX(R) in full production for thousands of users, rather than just "preserves" it, is an outcast. The same for the word "Preservation". Why not call it Proper UNIX Patriot Society? Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA04638 for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 08:58:27 +1000 (EST) >From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Sat Aug 1 08:53:31 1998 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA04633; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 08:58:19 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA09506; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 18:53:34 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199807312253.SAA09506(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....) In-Reply-To: <19980731094513.U7830(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Jul 31, 98 09:45:13 am" To: grog(a)lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 18:53:31 -0400 (EDT) Cc: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > On Wednesday, 29 July 1998 at 11:03:47 -0400, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote: > >> BUPS stands for BIG UNIX Preservation Society. I'm sure they will come > >> up with a better name :-) > > > > PUPS, BUPS, burp! Sounds fine! > > Are we really so many disparate people that we need two lists? I'd > guess that most people would be on both lists. How about just a name > change, to "Old UNIX Preservation Society"? > > Greg No, and my original thought was to fold it all under PUPS, but, I sense that Warren was not wanting to do that. For heaven's sakes, let us roll with the flow, and do what is best for all aboard. If that is one list, fine.... or two lists, fine. It was just a thought..... I would just like to see other orphan unices included in the philosophy behind PUPS, before they go vaporware, forever. How it gets there is unimportant, and for sure we don't want any politics or bent feelers involved. It is more important that we get it done, however it happens to get there. Bob Keys Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA04719 for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 09:35:16 +1000 (EST) >From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Sat Aug 1 09:30:35 1998 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA04714 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 09:35:09 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA09661; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 19:30:37 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199807312330.TAA09661(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Thoughts on vaxen.... In-Reply-To: <9807311740.AA16914(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Jul 31, 98 01:40:22 pm" To: msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 19:30:35 -0400 (EDT) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > Neil Johnson <neil(a)skatter.usask.ca> wrote: > My office is full of VAXen, but I don't envision a PDP-11 coming in any time > soon. For the sake of discussion..... What should one look for in a VAX? Say I was walking along through our state surplus agency (and I do that regularly these days, since all kinds of neato unicy goodies are popping up from a lot of folks going to NT toys), what kind of parts and pieces would I need to put together a minimal VAX, suited to some flavor of homegrown 32V/3BSD/4BSD, etc. Some of us would not really know one if it fell over on us.... like me. Yet, IFF I knew enough of what to look out for, mebbie one might appear. Everyone around here wants plain PC parts and machines in surplus, so the rest usually gets dumpster chucked or hauled off for scrap by the pallet load. I just missed 3 relay racks full of such things as 9 track tape drives, and some sort of pdpish lookalike things. So, what parts by name and number should I keep an eye out for, so that enough of something might be cobbled together to work? I have lots of experiences on PS/2, RT, and x86 unix boxes, but am woefully short on pdp-11 and VAXen experiences. I played with a pdp-11 many years ago, but I did not know much then. I am probably not the only one..... As ol' number 5 was want to say......``need input.... need input'' Thanks Bob Keys Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA06196 for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 21:13:02 +1000 (EST) >From Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Sat Aug 1 21:11:13 1998 Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.40]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA06191; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 21:12:53 +1000 (EST) Received: from (falstaf.demon.co.uk) [158.152.152.109] by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0z2Zai-0000tv-00; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 11:12:48 +0000 Message-ID: <eqRQxBARfvw1Ew98(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 12:11:13 +0100 To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Cc: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>, rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au From: Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....) In-Reply-To: <199807310120.LAA08798(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike (32) Version 3.05 <YSkKJATYm0AxAbv6xUlJqScVOx> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In message <199807310120.LAA08798(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>, Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes >In article by Greg Lehey: >> Are we really so many disparate people that we need two lists? I'd >> guess that most people would be on both lists. How about just a name >> change, to "Old UNIX Preservation Society"? >> >> Greg > >I don't know, I thought that it would give people more flexibility, >and shield people from stuff they didn't want to see. So lets ask: > >If you're on the PUPS list, do you want to see stuff about non PDP-11 Unixes? > Yes please. Two reasons. The first is that I have a general interest as I guess most of us have. The second is that I am interested in porting stuff onto 2.11 and if something comes up on the other unixes it may have an app on a pdp one >If you're on the BUPS list, do you want to see stuff about PDP-11 Unixes. > >Cheers all, > > Warren ____________________________________________________________________ Robin Birch robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk M1ASU/2E0ARJ Old computers and radios always welcome Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA08367 for pups-liszt; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 12:51:34 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 9 months

Re: Thoughts...

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Then start MAKING them! Our great nation of Workers and Peasants has the < military technology in the world! Let's show those bloodsucking capitali < that we can make PDP-11s and VAXen better than they ever could! They never stopped making them. Mentec has some really fast 11s. Mike, take a prozac and chill. It's all that capitalism that is making all of those old PDP-11s and such available in the first place. This place is for unix and it's heirs and relations not political ranting. We can argue better, first, cleanest, purity after we have captured the code and preserved it from loss. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA03203 for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 02:28:37 +1000 (EST) >From shsrms <shsrms(a)erols.com> Sat Aug 1 02:22:23 1998 Received: from smtp1.erols.com (smtp1.erols.com [207.172.3.234]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA03197 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 02:28:30 +1000 (EST) Received: from erols.com (207-172-243-104.s41.as4.rkv.erols.com [207.172.243.104]) by smtp1.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA04398; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:28:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35C1EF3D.6E05D8C7(a)erols.com> Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:22:23 -0400 From: shsrms <shsrms(a)erols.com> Reply-To: shsrms(a)ero_nospam_ls.com Organization: Holistic Horizons/Waverider Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au CC: msokolov(a)blackwidow.soml.cwru.edu, port-vax(a)netbsd.org Subject: Re: Thoughts... References: <9807311220.AA16681(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Fellow PUPS Listers, could someone with the proper education please look at Soko's postings here and in Netbsd vax list and tell me if soko is a real person or if he is an agitation program done by the psychology department? Thanks bob Michael Sokolov wrote: > > Stacy Minkin <stacy(a)asia.uznet.net> wrote: > > Absolutely right! The only problem with it that old CPUs are > > seems to be slowly vaporizing... > > Then start MAKING them! Our great nation of Workers and Peasants has the best > military technology in the world! Let's show those bloodsucking capitalists > that we can make PDP-11s and VAXen better than they ever could! > > Sincerely, > Michael Sokolov > Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) > ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu -- real address is shsrms at erols dot com The Herbal Gypsy and the Tinker. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA03322 for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 02:48:41 +1000 (EST) >From Neil Johnson <neil(a)skatter.usask.ca> Sat Aug 1 02:47:07 1998 Received: from skatter.USask.Ca (skatter.usask.ca [128.233.14.1]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA03317; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 02:48:35 +1000 (EST) Received: from hydrus.USask.Ca (hydrus.usask.ca [128.233.14.27]) by skatter.USask.Ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA04498; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:47:09 -0600 (CST) From: Neil Johnson <neil(a)skatter.usask.ca> Received: (from neil@localhost) by hydrus.USask.Ca (8.7.2/8.7.2) id KAA14549; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:47:07 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:47:07 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199807311647.KAA14549(a)hydrus.USask.Ca> To: grog(a)lemis.com, wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....) Cc: bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I agree with the idea of one list, but prefer the original PDP11 Unix Preservation Society. My interest is mainly PDP11 and Unix, which the name suggests. Linked together the names also provide an indication of the historical nature of the systems being used. I think anyone with an interest in only one of the two aspects should be welcome in the group, and I am interested in their questions or comments about their system. I also suspect that most participants in the mailing list are using PDP11 computers. If I didn't have an 11, but was still using a Model 16 from Radio Shack I personally would not feel unwelcome in this group with the original name retained. If other people do feel the PDP11 part of the name excludes them perhaps a name change would be appropriate. Neil Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA03502 for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 03:40:04 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 9 months

Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....)

by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu

Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> wrote: > Proper Unix Preservation Society! Yes! I vote for this! Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA02735 for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 23:45:09 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 9 months

Re: Thoughts...

by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu

Stacy Minkin <stacy(a)asia.uznet.net> wrote: > Absolutely right! The only problem with it that old CPUs are > seems to be slowly vaporizing... Then start MAKING them! Our great nation of Workers and Peasants has the best military technology in the world! Let's show those bloodsucking capitalists that we can make PDP-11s and VAXen better than they ever could! Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA02441 for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 22:25:32 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 9 months

Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....)

by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu

Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> wrote: > I don't know, I thought that it would give people more flexibility, > and shield people from stuff they didn't want to see. So lets ask: > > If you're on the PUPS list, do you want to see stuff about non PDP-11 Unixes? Yes! > If you're on the BUPS list, do you want to see stuff about PDP-11 Unixes. Yes! Personally, I think it's a bad idea to have two separate societies/lists. After all, in many case PDP-11 UNIX and VAX UNIX are the same code compiled for different CPUs, and these lists are not about binary-only OSes, are they? If it's all fundamentally the same code, it should be on one list, regardless of what CPUs people want to compile it for. I'm also a little troubled by the word "preservation". This word suggests the group acknowledges that these systems are "old" or "historical". 4.3BSD is being _ACTIVELY WORKED ON_ (by me) as I type, and I have been under the impression that 2.11BSD is also being actively worked on by Steven M. Schults. Sure, these systems WILL be "old" or "historical" if we just sit and "preserve" them, but IMHO this is NOT what we should do. We should look and act and behave AS IF these systems were brand new. I.e, run them in production on the net competing with Pentiums and SPARCs, and actually MAKE thse systems new by doing active development work on the sources just like the dev teams for "new" OSes do. If we can't build a time machine, let's shut all doors and windows and create a 1980s world inside! So, with these ideas in mind, why not call ourselves TUUDS, True UNIX User and Developer Society? Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02203 for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:13:34 +1000 (EST) >From Stacy Minkin <stacy(a)asia.uznet.net> Fri Jul 31 21:12:16 1998 Received: from harrier.Uznet.NET (harrier.ml.org [193.220.92.194]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA02197 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:13:01 +1000 (EST) Received: (from stacy@localhost) by harrier.Uznet.NET (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA03207 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 16:12:16 +0500 Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 16:12:16 +0500 From: Stacy Minkin <stacy(a)asia.uznet.net> Message-Id: <199807311112.QAA03207(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Thoughts... Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Hi All! > From: msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov) >I'm also a little troubled by the word "preservation". This word suggests the >group acknowledges that these systems are "old" or "historical". 4.3BSD is >being _ACTIVELY WORKED ON_ (by me) as I type, and I have been under the >impression that 2.11BSD is also being actively worked on by Steven M. Schults. >Sure, these systems WILL be "old" or "historical" if we just sit and "preserve" >them, but IMHO this is NOT what we should do. We should look and act and behave >AS IF these systems were brand new. I.e, run them in production on the net >competing with Pentiums and SPARCs, and actually MAKE thse systems new by doing >active development work on the sources just like the dev teams for "new" OSes >do. If we can't build a time machine, let's shut all doors and windows and >create a 1980s world inside! Absolutely right! The only problem with it that old CPUs are seems to be slowly vaporizing... I spent about ten years searching until I finally got original Digital PDP-11 here in Uzbekistan (xUSSR) ! And I succeeded only because I started working for Digital here. Stacy. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02334 for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:58:54 +1000 (EST) >From Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> Fri Jul 31 21:54:50 1998 Received: from aiai.ed.ac.uk (eigg.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.41.7]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA02329; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:58:48 +1000 (EST) Received: from dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk (dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.105.17]) by aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA16048; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:54:50 +0100 (BST) Received: (tfb@localhost) by dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) id MAA03301; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:54:50 +0100 Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:54:50 +0100 Message-Id: <199807311154.MAA03301(a)dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk> From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Cc: grog(a)lemis.com (Greg Lehey), rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....) In-Reply-To: <199807310120.LAA08798(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> References: <19980731094513.U7830(a)freebie.lemis.com> <199807310120.LAA08798(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.14 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > If you're on the PUPS list, do you want to see stuff about non PDP-11 Unixes? > If you're on the BUPS list, do you want to see stuff about PDP-11 Unixes. I'm on both, I'm interested in stuff about both. I would have thought that the overlap is fairly large. --tim Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02319 for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:56:18 +1000 (EST) >From Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> Fri Jul 31 21:55:32 1998 Received: from aiai.ed.ac.uk (eigg.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.41.7]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA02314; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:55:58 +1000 (EST) Received: from dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk (dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.105.17]) by aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA16054; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:55:33 +0100 (BST) Received: (tfb@localhost) by dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) id MAA03303; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:55:32 +0100 Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:55:32 +0100 Message-Id: <199807311155.MAA03303(a)dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk> From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: djenner(a)halcyon.com Cc: bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....) In-Reply-To: <35C138FB.A77E57E3(a)halcyon.com> References: <199807310120.LAA08798(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <35C138FB.A77E57E3(a)halcyon.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.14 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk * David C Jenner wrote: > I vote for one list. Leave it PUPS, and call it the > Past/Prehistoric/Perpetual Unix Preservation Society > or something like that. Or think up a "P" adjective > that glorifies the olden Unix. Proper Unix Preservation Society! Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA02386 for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 22:19:42 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 9 months

Re: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Excuse me, sir, but I have to make a point here. They _ARE_ competing Not an undesireable thing. May the best win... for the rest of us any is better than zero. < 0. The only higher-than-PDP-11 computers that can be allowed to run U < are DEC VAXen. I oppose the idea of running UNIX on PeeCees and shit lik < that. That is also wrong, as Interdata 8/32, IBM System/370 and Honeywell 6000 are recognized as ports by K&R in their docs! the latter three systems while interesting are not general collectors fare as they tend to be a bit large. Frankly, why not? Anything that competes with MS is good! < 1. I consider it the ultimate in blasphemy to attempt to create "UNI < clones" that people dare to call "Unix" but don't really contain any cod < written by God Ritchie, God Thompson, or God Kernighan. I never use any < "free Unices" like FreeBSD and NetBSD. Right now I use Ultrix and SunOS It was God Bell Labs (nee WE) that K&R worked for that put the odious license fees on unix, in 1980 it was a mere $24,000 for the sources which were a must have. People started doing clones to break free of the license and distributions that didn't contain sources. It made possible to get on platforms that were unsupported/unsupportable without source code or at least for the commercial versions at lower cost to the user. Venix for Pro350 is such an example (it's v6 or v7 code!). I'm not saying the clones are good or bad, only born of necessity. Of course they couldn't contain and of said God code due to licenses. Like all gods their feet are of clay. Since the goal is to preserve unix and unix like OSs there is no crime, even if the varients are not direct decendents. So long as people understand the lineage preservation should certainly should proceed. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA03871 for pups-liszt; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 03:31:54 +1000 (EST) >From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Thu Jul 30 03:27:12 1998 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA03866; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 03:31:47 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA04034; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:27:14 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199807291727.NAA04034(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts..... In-Reply-To: <9807291552.AA12576(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Jul 29, 98 11:52:57 am" To: msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:27:12 -0400 (EDT) Cc: bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> wrote: > > It is obvious that none of the old toys are going to be competing with > > the rush to NT and SCOish things. > > Excuse me, sir, but I have to make a point here. They _ARE_ competing! No excuses necessary. But, please relax a bit and don't let the blood boil to much. All of us here, are interested in the preservation of the beast. Granted many may run it for a living, me included, to some extent. But, likewise most or many of us are the same folks that have a vaxen or pdp-11 in the basement (I remember seeing a pix of one of our leader's machines next to the kitchen fridge?). Clearly, the basement/kitchen toys are not competing. They are purely hobby related. My dumpster risc box won't ever compete again, but is fun to spin up a TeX and troff on. > My office is the largest room in the department, and it's filled with VAXen > of all kinds. My goal is to get 4.3BSD-* running on all of them and operate > this system in direct competition with other UNIX systems on our campus, > which are all Pentiums or SPARCs. Since my system administration skills and > friendliness to students surpass those of other campus UNIX systems' admins > by many orders of binary magnitude, I plan to urge people to migrate to my > VAXen this way. Yes, my plan is total world VAX domination! This is exactly > why I want to modify Berkeley VAX UNIX to run on all VAX models from 11/780 > to 10000. (An EXTREMELY daring and ambitious goal, needless to say.) Clearly yours are more mainstream related. Kudos for the sysadmin handholding towards the students. Mentoring, one on one is the best way to handle many computer learning things. Although vaxen may dominate the world (or did at one time, according to Henry Spencer's infamous ten commandments for C programmers), there are many lesser breeds that I sense others of us partake of. Also, there are insufficient numbers of remaining vaxen and pdp-11's for all of us to have one in the home hobbyroom. Because of that, I would suggest that maybe there is interest in the other lines of machines and their related unices, even the 32bitters. > I have two strong and radical views: > > 0. The only higher-than-PDP-11 computers that can be allowed to run UNIX > are DEC VAXen. I oppose the idea of running UNIX on PeeCees and shit like > that. Not so, IMHO. The purist may run a vaxen in the manner of the Bugattis of old, but us garage monkeywrench types may be stuck with even a lowly PC thingie. Don't quite put the PC flavors down, since I can attest to their utility in poverty stricken research projects for at least the past 10 years, courtesy Big Blue and that hybrid PC unix of theirs (AIX 1.x). Also, the freebie BSD's are sufficiently close to the real thing, that most average users would not know the difference. Cat is cat is cat, no matter how it is coded (and they all look remarkably similar). > 1. I consider it the ultimate in blasphemy to attempt to create "UNIX > clones" that people dare to call "Unix" but don't really contain any code > written by God Ritchie, God Thompson, or God Kernighan. I never use any > "free Unices" like FreeBSD and NetBSD. Right now I use Ultrix and SunOS, > which are kosher in the above sense but binary-only for most people. The > latter part is why I want to move to 4.3BSD-*. Also my belief in True > licensed UNIX(R) is the reason I have joined PUPS, as it seems to be the > only remaining group dealing with such UNIX. Well, yes and no. I consider it a tribute to the likes of Thompson, Ritchie, Kernighan, Ossanna, and a string of others down the trees, that the wisdom of their reasoning and toiling has had fruition even in the lowly PC's. Why did the freebies catch on like they have? Because the folks wanted something like a BSD, and the corporate bean counters and lawyers missed their chance. As to which flavor to use, I use what I have that will run on whichever box I have on. I prefer a BSDish box, but even a V7 is fun, and with a viish terminal driver and troff, still runs with the best of the big dogs, and even AIX is usable if you get used to its quirks. But, for sure, the point of all this is to preserve the history, code, nuances, and whatever else can be maintained, unless I am sorely amiss of the PUPS goals. I only think it needs to include the castoff 32 bit machines, too, hence the need for a BUPS group, IMHO. > Sincerely, > Michael Sokolov With all due respect. R.D. Keys rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA03980 for pups-liszt; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 04:02:13 +1000 (EST) >From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Thu Jul 30 03:57:22 1998 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA03968; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 04:02:04 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA04109; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:57:25 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199807291757.NAA04109(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts (what have we started?) In-Reply-To: <199807291631.AA16185(a)world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Jul 29, 98 12:31:06 pm" To: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:57:22 -0400 (EDT) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > Not an undesireable thing. May the best win... for the rest of us any > is better than zero. Well said, but perhaps we need to frame that with something like, ``all will win, even the least....'' > < 0. The only higher-than-PDP-11 computers that can be allowed to run U > < are DEC VAXen. I oppose the idea of running UNIX on PeeCees and shit lik > < that. > > That is also wrong, as Interdata 8/32, IBM System/370 and Honeywell 6000 > are recognized as ports by K&R in their docs! the latter three systems > while interesting are not general collectors fare as they tend to be a > bit large. Can anyone refresh my memory of what machines specifically were listed in the V7 and 32V and 2/3/4BSD docs? I would like to get that clear, for reference purposes. Also, what specific machines were ported out of these main sources by the odd vendors. The majority was pdp11ish, but about V7 time the 68000 and Z8000 and other oddities pop up. > < 1. I consider it the ultimate in blasphemy to attempt to create "UNI > < clones" that people dare to call "Unix" but don't really contain any cod > < written by God Ritchie, God Thompson, or God Kernighan. I never use any > < "free Unices" like FreeBSD and NetBSD. Right now I use Ultrix and SunOS > > It was God Bell Labs (nee WE) that K&R worked for that put the odious > license fees on unix, in 1980 it was a mere $24,000 for the sources which > were a must have. People started doing clones to break free of the > license and distributions that didn't contain sources. It made possible > to get on platforms that were unsupported/unsupportable without source > code or at least for the commercial versions at lower cost to the user. > Venix for Pro350 is such an example (it's v6 or v7 code!). I'm not > saying the clones are good or bad, only born of necessity. Of course > they couldn't contain and of said God code due to licenses. I would agree on the necessity. Back in '88 I went shopping for an office machine, and could find nothing under around 25 kilobucks. I opted out for a peanuts budget machine (PS/2 model 80 with AIX) at around 10K bucks and the silly thing is still whirring away as my remote tape dumper. Alas, it is a much maligned PC, but it functions nontheless, and IS a real unix. Alas, these days, its steam is a little underpowered trying to scrape the web, so it idles in the background. Technically, it is a 32 bit abandoned unix, and for hypotheticals, it ought to be something workable in a BUPS sort of archive, with proper Big Blue nodding. The same thing should occur for the RT. It would probably be a nightmare of paperwork between SCO and IBM and us, tho..... > Like all gods their feet are of clay. The gods were hacking away fine.... alas the beanyheads upstairs had their feet stuck, if I am reading my history correctly. > Since the goal is to preserve unix and unix like OSs there is no crime, > even if the varients are not direct decendents. So long as people > understand the lineage preservation should certainly should proceed. The goal is to save it if possible, BEFORE it becomes vaporware, for purely hobby/historical purposes, with the big player's graces and consents. If we don't dream a little and oil some squeeky wheels, it will never get done..... > Allison RDK Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA14668 for pups-liszt; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:18:07 +1000 (EST) >From "Ian King" <iking(a)KillTheWabbit.org> Thu Jul 30 16:02:39 1998 Received: from forbin.killthewabbit.org (killthewabbit.org [208.192.43.132]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA14663; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:17:49 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199807300606.XAA11564(a)forbin.killthewabbit.org> From: "Ian King" <iking(a)KillTheWabbit.org> To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>, "Michael Sokolov" <msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Cc: <bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>, <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts..... Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 23:02:39 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1160 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au id QAA14664 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I'm glad there are people and codebases that compete with Microsoft -- and I work for Microsoft. It keeps us on our toes. :-) I run NT 4.0 and Linux 2.0.30 side-by-side at home, on the selfsame network -- and all on Intel hardware. I am on this mailing list because I am gaining a PDP 11/34 as a new resident in my home, which will be networked together with the Intel hardware (so I don't have to run downstairs all the time -- the PDP is too large for my computer room upstairs). Why? Call it a sense of history.... Why shouldn't UNIX run on everything? The beauty of the UNIX idea -- which has been cloned and transported and transliterated and transmogrified a myriad times a myriad times -- is that it expresses a rich metaphor for computation, which allows us to make use of these metal monsters. I have the greatest respect for "true" UNIX and its parents and godparents. I also have a lot of respect for Linus Torvalds and the incredible piece of work he birthed -- a true UNIX version that makes excellent use of the PC architecture. The PC architecture has commoditized significant computing power in a manner that Digital could never have done (or at least, never did), and placed that into the hands of many people who would be otherwise financially barred from playing this game. IMHO it's specious to demonize a particular machine architecture and declare that UNIXes running on it are somehow illegitimate. Cheers -- Ian King NOTE: this is strictly my personal ramblings, and does not in any way represent the official position of the Microsoft Corporation. ---------- > From: User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> > To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> > Cc: bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au > Subject: Re: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts..... > Date: Wednesday, July 29, 1998 10:27 AM > > > "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> wrote: > > > It is obvious that none of the old toys are going to be competing with > > > the rush to NT and SCOish things. > > > > Excuse me, sir, but I have to make a point here. They _ARE_ competing! > > No excuses necessary. But, please relax a bit and don't let the blood > boil to much. All of us here, are interested in the preservation of the > beast. Granted many may run it for a living, me included, to some extent. > But, likewise most or many of us are the same folks that have a vaxen > or pdp-11 in the basement (I remember seeing a pix of one of our leader's > machines next to the kitchen fridge?). Clearly, the basement/kitchen toys > are not competing. They are purely hobby related. My dumpster risc box > won't ever compete again, but is fun to spin up a TeX and troff on. > > > My office is the largest room in the department, and it's filled with VAXen > > of all kinds. My goal is to get 4.3BSD-* running on all of them and operate > > this system in direct competition with other UNIX systems on our campus, > > which are all Pentiums or SPARCs. Since my system administration skills and > > friendliness to students surpass those of other campus UNIX systems' admins > > by many orders of binary magnitude, I plan to urge people to migrate to my > > VAXen this way. Yes, my plan is total world VAX domination! This is exactly > > why I want to modify Berkeley VAX UNIX to run on all VAX models from 11/780 > > to 10000. (An EXTREMELY daring and ambitious goal, needless to say.) > > Clearly yours are more mainstream related. > > Kudos for the sysadmin handholding towards the students. Mentoring, one > on one is the best way to handle many computer learning things. > > Although vaxen may dominate the world (or did at one time, according to > Henry Spencer's infamous ten commandments for C programmers), there are > many lesser breeds that I sense others of us partake of. Also, there > are insufficient numbers of remaining vaxen and pdp-11's for all of us > to have one in the home hobbyroom. Because of that, I would suggest > that maybe there is interest in the other lines of machines and their > related unices, even the 32bitters. > > > I have two strong and radical views: > > > > 0. The only higher-than-PDP-11 computers that can be allowed to run UNIX > > are DEC VAXen. I oppose the idea of running UNIX on PeeCees and shit like > > that. > > Not so, IMHO. The purist may run a vaxen in the manner of the Bugattis > of old, but us garage monkeywrench types may be stuck with even a lowly > PC thingie. Don't quite put the PC flavors down, since I can attest to > their utility in poverty stricken research projects for at least the past > 10 years, courtesy Big Blue and that hybrid PC unix of theirs (AIX 1.x). > Also, the freebie BSD's are sufficiently close to the real thing, that > most average users would not know the difference. Cat is cat is cat, > no matter how it is coded (and they all look remarkably similar). > > > 1. I consider it the ultimate in blasphemy to attempt to create "UNIX > > clones" that people dare to call "Unix" but don't really contain any code > > written by God Ritchie, God Thompson, or God Kernighan. I never use any > > "free Unices" like FreeBSD and NetBSD. Right now I use Ultrix and SunOS, > > which are kosher in the above sense but binary-only for most people. The > > latter part is why I want to move to 4.3BSD-*. Also my belief in True > > licensed UNIX(R) is the reason I have joined PUPS, as it seems to be the > > only remaining group dealing with such UNIX. > > Well, yes and no. > > I consider it a tribute to the likes of Thompson, Ritchie, Kernighan, > Ossanna, and a string of others down the trees, that the wisdom of their > reasoning and toiling has had fruition even in the lowly PC's. Why did > the freebies catch on like they have? Because the folks wanted something > like a BSD, and the corporate bean counters and lawyers missed their chance. > As to which flavor to use, I use what I have that will run on whichever > box I have on. I prefer a BSDish box, but even a V7 is fun, and with > a viish terminal driver and troff, still runs with the best of the big > dogs, and even AIX is usable if you get used to its quirks. > > But, for sure, the point of all this is to preserve the history, code, > nuances, and whatever else can be maintained, unless I am sorely amiss > of the PUPS goals. I only think it needs to include the castoff 32 > bit machines, too, hence the need for a BUPS group, IMHO. > > > Sincerely, > > Michael Sokolov > > With all due respect. > > R.D. Keys > rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA00214 for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:22:06 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Jul 31 11:20:35 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA00201; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:21:49 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA08798; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:20:36 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199807310120.LAA08798(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....) To: grog(a)lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:20:35 +1000 (EST) Cc: rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu, wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <19980731094513.U7830(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Jul 31, 98 09:45:13 am" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Greg Lehey: > Are we really so many disparate people that we need two lists? I'd > guess that most people would be on both lists. How about just a name > change, to "Old UNIX Preservation Society"? > > Greg I don't know, I thought that it would give people more flexibility, and shield people from stuff they didn't want to see. So lets ask: If you're on the PUPS list, do you want to see stuff about non PDP-11 Unixes? If you're on the BUPS list, do you want to see stuff about PDP-11 Unixes. Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA00743 for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 13:25:22 +1000 (EST) >From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Fri Jul 31 13:24:43 1998 Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (mgate.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA00738; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 13:25:15 +1000 (EST) Received: from halcyon.com (blv-lx106-ip44.nwnexus.net [206.63.41.244]) by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA07370; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 20:24:49 -0700 Message-ID: <35C138FB.A77E57E3(a)halcyon.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 20:24:43 -0700 From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Reply-To: djenner(a)halcyon.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....) References: <199807310120.LAA08798(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I vote for one list. Leave it PUPS, and call it the Past/Prehistoric/Perpetual Unix Preservation Society or something like that. Or think up a "P" adjective that glorifies the olden Unix. Almost everything has been cross-posted up to this point, and I get two copies anyway! Dave Warren Toomey wrote: > > In article by Greg Lehey: > > Are we really so many disparate people that we need two lists? I'd > > guess that most people would be on both lists. How about just a name > > change, to "Old UNIX Preservation Society"? > > > > Greg > > I don't know, I thought that it would give people more flexibility, > and shield people from stuff they didn't want to see. So lets ask: > > If you're on the PUPS list, do you want to see stuff about non PDP-11 Unixes? > > If you're on the BUPS list, do you want to see stuff about PDP-11 Unixes. > > Cheers all, > > Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA01084 for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:32:13 +1000 (EST) >From Stacy Minkin <stacy(a)asia.uznet.net> Fri Jul 31 15:29:46 1998 Received: from harrier.Uznet.NET (harrier.ml.org [193.220.92.194]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA01078 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:30:19 +1000 (EST) Received: (from stacy@localhost) by harrier.Uznet.NET (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA01933 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:29:46 +0500 Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:29:46 +0500 From: Stacy Minkin <stacy(a)asia.uznet.net> Message-Id: <199807310529.KAA01933(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Let'em be one! Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I also vote for one list. Stacy. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA01162 for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:53:58 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Jul 31 15:54:00 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA01157 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:53:54 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA09629 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:54:01 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199807310554.PAA09629(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Let'em be one! Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:54:00 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199807310529.KAA01933(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> from Stacy Minkin at "Jul 31, 98 10:29:46 am" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Stacy Minkin: > > I also vote for one list [about old UNIX]. > Stacy. Looks like most people would like a common list, so I have merged the two lists. The PUPS list is now for Prehistoric UNIX :-) I'll keep the PUPS web page about PDP-11 stuff for now, though. The bups@minnie list is gone, and all mail for the list should now go to pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au. What next? Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA02057 for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:08:38 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 9 months

Re: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....

by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu

"User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> wrote: > It is obvious that none of the old toys are going to be competing with > the rush to NT and SCOish things. Excuse me, sir, but I have to make a point here. They _ARE_ competing! My office is the largest room in the department, and it's filled with VAXen of all kinds. My goal is to get 4.3BSD-* running on all of them and operate this system in direct competition with other UNIX systems on our campus, which are all Pentiums or SPARCs. Since my system administration skills and friendliness to students surpass those of other campus UNIX systems' admins by many orders of binary magnitude, I plan to urge people to migrate to my VAXen this way. Yes, my plan is total world VAX domination! This is exactly why I want to modify Berkeley VAX UNIX to run on all VAX models from 11/780 to 10000. (An EXTREMELY daring and ambitious goal, needless to say.) I have two strong and radical views: 0. The only higher-than-PDP-11 computers that can be allowed to run UNIX are DEC VAXen. I oppose the idea of running UNIX on PeeCees and shit like that. 1. I consider it the ultimate in blasphemy to attempt to create "UNIX clones" that people dare to call "Unix" but don't really contain any code written by God Ritchie, God Thompson, or God Kernighan. I never use any "free Unices" like FreeBSD and NetBSD. Right now I use Ultrix and SunOS, which are kosher in the above sense but binary-only for most people. The latter part is why I want to move to 4.3BSD-*. Also my belief in True licensed UNIX(R) is the reason I have joined PUPS, as it seems to be the only remaining group dealing with such UNIX. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.cwru.edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA03595 for pups-liszt; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 02:31:20 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 9 months

None

by norman＠nose.cs.yorku.ca

A postscript to my note on the old manuyals (typed into the editor but not written out before I sent the mail!): A note on distributing this stuff: I asked Dennis about it before I started my project, and he thought there should be no real problem making the text generally available, but that it would be appropriate for the official repository to be at Bell Labs (now a once-again-visible subsidiary of Lucent Technologies). That seems pretty sensible to me. I doubt there's a problem putting them in the PUPS archive, but it would be politic to check with Dennis first. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA01345 for pups-liszt; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:55:27 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Jul 29 13:55:36 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA01340 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:55:23 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA05056 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:55:36 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199807290355.NAA05056(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: PUPS: status report To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:55:36 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Hi all, Not much has been hapenning in the PDP UNIX Preservation Society. Kirk McKusick is still waiting for the CD pressing company to do his run of 4BSD CDs. I'm urging him to make a web page describing the project, so we can stay informed of the progress. A few people in comp.unix.bsd.misc suggested that another preservation society needs to be formed, to preserve 32-bit UNIXes and other non PDP-11 UNIXes. I've set up a mailing list for them to discuss such a project. If you are interested, then you can join the mailing list by emailing to majordomo(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, with a line in the body saying: subscribe bups BUPS stands for BIG UNIX Preservation Society. I'm sure they will come up with a better name :-) Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA03282 for pups-liszt; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 01:08:39 +1000 (EST) >From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Thu Jul 30 01:03:47 1998 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA03271; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 01:08:25 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA03577; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:03:49 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199807291503.LAA03577(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts..... In-Reply-To: <199807290355.NAA05056(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "Jul 29, 98 01:55:36 pm" To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:03:47 -0400 (EDT) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > Hi all, > Not much has been hapenning in the PDP UNIX Preservation Society. > Kirk McKusick is still waiting for the CD pressing company to do his run > of 4BSD CDs. I'm urging him to make a web page describing the project, so > we can stay informed of the progress. This will be great when it happens. Kudos to Kirk.....and all the unsung heroes along the path to Nirvana. > A few people in comp.unix.bsd.misc suggested that another preservation > society needs to be formed, to preserve 32-bit UNIXes and other non PDP-11 > UNIXes. I've set up a mailing list for them to discuss such a project. > If you are interested, then you can join the mailing list by emailing > to majordomo(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, with a line in the body saying: > > subscribe bups > > BUPS stands for BIG UNIX Preservation Society. I'm sure they will come > up with a better name :-) PUPS, BUPS, burp! Sounds fine! I will jump in the hotseat and own up to the heat. My idea was very simple. Mainly, I was thinking that there are beginning to surface from the bilges of surplus, a fair number of aging old-time unix toys. Not all of them are PDP-11ish flavor. For instance, there are sometimes found some of the ancient Radio Shack Model 16 things with an odd flavor of Xenix on them. There are maybe some old vaxen going wanting. There are odd bilgewater sloshers like my old IBM RT that once did ply the waters of the great BSD (of the 4.3 style flavor). Also, there are older x86 toys that use to run the very lowendian V7ish, Xenixish, whateverish flavors. From the purely hobby and historical perspective, I find it rather wasteful to let such things just vaporize. It seems we have the PDP11 world, then there is a big black hole until the modern SCOish and Freebieish things. It is obvious that none of the old toys are going to be competing with the rush to NT and SCOish things. Thus, there is a need to maybe fill that hole with something like the PUPS, but for 32bitish toys, and all the non-PDP-11 toys. One thing that PUPS has going, is a good working basis with all the unixy world, the big players, the historical saints, etc. So, it was logical to perceive that such a working framework might be expanded slightly to include not just 32V, but all the odd successors, down to where SCO claims rightly its territory on the SysV part of the tree. IF that framework is a BUPS offshoot, so-be-it. But, I still think that both PUPS and the new BUPS share much common cammaraderie and playground. Alas, I am not yet of sufficient rank to be called but a lowly journeyman, in the unixy world. I have run it in earnest for some 10 years, played some with it on a PDP-11, so long ago, that it is mostly forgotten, and still keep a set of 8 inch Xenix floppers around, just in case that mystical Model 16B drops by, again. Thus, there is not a lot I can do. But, I do toss out the idea, would like to see where it goes. Mebbie some heavyweight gurus would like to run with it some..... Let us roll it around a bit, and see where the currents takes us. The 32BitBiggieUPS should not be forgotten. I think it can only be good for all to make it play..... Sincerely R.D. Keys rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu > Cheers all, > Warren Cheers all hands aboard PUPS, BUPS, .... burp!, .... whatever..... RDK Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA03488 for pups-liszt; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 01:52:41 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 10 months

None

by norman＠nose.cs.yorku.ca

I hadn't expected Warren to forward my note directly to the list, so perhaps I'd better fill in some of the missing content. What I'm trying to do with the old manuals is a mix of different sorts of historic preservation: it's interesting to be able to produce something reasonably close to the original in appearance, including style differences, but I am also interested just in making the content accessible. That means being able to render the manual pages into troff -man on modern UNIX systems, or into nroff /man/man0/naa in the V5 root image, and roff and whatnot; but also into HTML because that's the right way to make text available on the web (Postscript is not text), and certainly into other forms I haven't thought of yet. To describe it all in utterly pragmatic terms, I want to be able to put all the old manuals up on the web somewhere in readable text form (not just page images or Postscript); and to produce manual data of authentic content and reasonably authentic style for use with the V5 binary distribution; and to be able to to print clear reference copies for myself, so I can pack my old photocopies away in a safe place; and to amuse myself by running style and diction on the different editions; and I want to be able to do that even if I don't have a copy of roff or the appropriate age-authentic macro package. So the idea is to mark up the text in a sufficiently high-level form that it can be rendered into any of the forms above (including the ones I haven't thought of) without undo work. I thought briefly about using the (V7-era) -man macros as the high-level language, and in fact much of the simple language I ended up inventing are obviously drawn from -man (e.g. there are constructs that are exactly .TH, .SH, and .SS spelled differently); but I wanted to avoid the temptation just to toss in more and more troff-specific syntax and semantics whenever some hard-to-represent construct popped up. (There are too many low-level constructs in the resulting language as it is.) I also thought about using some existing document metalanguage like XML or YODL, but those I looked at were far more ornate than seemed appropriate, and far too free-form; I don't mind carrying a few medium-sized awk programs around to render the text, but I object to having to port a language-processing subsystem larger than the V5 kernel just so I can render V5's manual pages. (Never mind how large awk and troff are these days.) There's a name I should also name here: my collaborator in California to whom the earlier message alludes is Jennine Townsend, who has photocopies of my photocopies from a sort of earlier collaboration. More on this in a few days; as I said to Warren, I hope to get a coherent sample of all this work up on the web shortly so people can see what I'm doing in more detail and comment, but I am in the midst of deciding whether to change jobs (it is a coincidence that the likely job change would put me nearer the OCR setup I've been using, but it is convenient), and in getting back into the swing of things at my present job after being out for two weeks to recover from having corrective maintenance on my sinuses, so it may not happen till the weekend. Norman Wilson Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA25486 for pups-liszt; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 05:00:33 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 10 months

Re: DEC in the UK and Dilog

by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu

Steven M. Schultz <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> wrote: > > Can anyone shed any light on a company called Dilog. > > Not sure if they're still in the DEC business but at one time they > were one of the major 3rd party vendors making Qbus and Unibus > controllers. I don't know if it's their only business, but they still sell (and hopefully make) these controllers. One of their guys was trying to sell me one just a few months ago. Of course, their prices are way off-base compared to the used market. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.cwru.edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA19102 for pups-liszt; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 12:59:30 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sun Jul 12 12:59:31 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA19097 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 12:59:26 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA01524; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 12:59:32 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199807120259.MAA01524(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: PUPS To: jim(a)sco.COM (Jim Sullivan) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 12:59:31 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980710080445.00691374(a)mammoth.sco.com> from Jim Sullivan at "Jul 10, 98 11:12:48 am" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Jim Sullivan: > Do you know if anyone from PUPS is going to SCO Forum/Usenix in > August in Santa Cruz? > > If so, we'd love to connect, if just to say Hi! > > Also, SCO has a quarterly Developer's newsletter, called CoreDump. > Would anyone within PUPS be interested in submitting an article > for the next edition? 500 words outlining the goals of PUPS > and how to join/participate? Seems like a nice way to quietly > promote your efforts. > > What do you think? Hi Jim, I'll pass this email on to the mailing list. I'll probably take you up on the article. Thanks! I'm in Australia & not likely to get to Santa Cruz in any hurry. :-( Ciao, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA21845 for pups-liszt; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:47:50 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Jul 13 13:47:55 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA21838 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:47:46 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA07263; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:47:55 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199807130347.NAA07263(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Recovering old UNIX manuals To: norman(a)nose.cs.yorku.ca Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:47:55 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) In-Reply-To: <WAA00038(a)lion.cs.yorku.ca> from "norman(a)nose.cs.yorku.ca" at "Jul 12, 98 10:20:04 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk All, I'm forwarding on Norman's e-mail describing his efforts at converting his paper-only copies of the early UNIX manuals back into machine-readable format. Warren norman(a)nose.cs.yorku.ca writes: > The first pass of markup is all done on chapter I of 5e, which is > all I have scanned so far. It is tempting to forge ahead on the > text extracted from Dennis's 1e, but I hope to discipline myself > to finish some surrounding documentation and tools. On each front, > right now there is: > - a small collection of tools to pre-process what comes out > of the OCR into something that is easy to mark up. > Specifically there are a couple of little filters that > fix up the non-ASCII characters emitted by the Mac, and > that glue hyphenated words back together; and a rather > bigger awk script that does some of the easy grunt work > like spotting and marking up entry titles and section headers. > - a description of the markup language (written in itself, > of course). > - a program (also in awk, and surprisingly long) to render > the markup language into approximately V7 -man. (I have > actually done all the work so far on the MicroVAX in my > basement, which is one of the last remaining V10 systems > in the world, and it won't surprise me to learn that the > renderer has accidentally picked up some V10-specific > assumptions.) > - a collection of advice on style and known OCR botches > and whatnot for those who mark up and proof the manuals > as they go through the pipe. (At the moment `those' means > me and my collaborator in California.) > > The most important missing tools and writings are something to render > into HTML, and something that explains a little more generally just > what it is I am doing (and how it differs from what Dennis did, and > for that matter from just trying to regenerate the original troff > input) and describes the tools and so on. My current hope is to > get those done in odd moments this week; once I have a decent > approximation of each, I want to put copies of all the documents > and all the tools and a few sample pages from 5e up on the web, so > people have something to look at and I can get comments from a wider > group. (Obviously I'll drop a note to the PUPS mailing list when > things are up there.) > > While I'm writing the HTML renderer and the missing document this > week, my colleague in California has already begun an independent > proofreading pass over the stuff I've marked up, which is a damn > good thing because I can't see the errors any more (and she has > already spotted some). > > The other tools I know are missing are > - some sort of structure to allow the old pre-typesetter manuals > to be rendered in a good approximation of their original form. > At the moment I expect this will just be a troff macro package > with the syntax of V7 -man, so I can just use the existing renderer, > though I can see some font issues looming that may cause force the > renderer to change (perhaps in a way general enough that there will > still be only one renderer). > - something to allow V6-era -man (or /usr/man/man0/naa, to name it > properly) macros to work too; the obvious cheap way out is something > that translates V7 -man to V6, presumably with the knowledge that what > it is translating came out of my markto7man renderer (which restricts > the language quite a bit, so the job is a lot simpler). I'm not sure > how important this is--the obvious short-term goal is to be able to > have a man command in the V5 environment, and since the macros probably > aren't in the existing distribution, it's fair game to bring in a copy > of the V7 ones--but it seems worth having in the long run if only for > fun. > > I'd originally thought to write more of the tools before doing so > much markup, but I'm glad I didn't--the markup language mutated more > than I expected as experience showed where it was wrong, and it made > life simpler to have only one renderer to update. I think it is > pretty much stable now, and in any case I am champing at the bit to > be able to display things in HTML. > > A final complication in all this: it is all but certain that I'll > be resigning from York this week, effective in about a month, to > jump back to a position at the University of Toronto (running > computers for the Canadian Institute for Theoretical Astrophysics). > This is not a surprise to anyone concerned (including the folks here > at York--the real reason for the move is that the eleven-mile commute > to York is just too long for me), but it will certainly have both > short- and long-term effects on the time I can spend on the manuals. > The long-term effects may not be what you think, though: the scanner > and OCR setup I've been using is located at CITA, so once I've settled > in there (and especially once I get the tools sorted out well enough > that it is effectively a pipeline), it should be pretty convenient > to spend the odd hour scanning in a handful of pages. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA23544 for pups-liszt; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 23:49:16 +1000 (EST) >From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Mon Jul 13 23:44:42 1998 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA23539 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 23:49:09 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA12765; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:44:44 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199807131344.JAA12765(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: Recovering old UNIX manuals In-Reply-To: <199807130347.NAA07263(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "Jul 13, 98 01:47:55 pm" To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:44:42 -0400 (EDT) Cc: norman(a)nose.cs.yorku.ca, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > All, > I'm forwarding on Norman's e-mail describing his efforts at > converting his paper-only copies of the early UNIX manuals back into > machine-readable format. > > Warren > > norman(a)nose.cs.yorku.ca writes: > > The first pass of markup is all done on chapter I of 5e, which is > > all I have scanned so far. It is tempting to forge ahead on the > > text extracted from Dennis's 1e, but I hope to discipline myself > > to finish some surrounding documentation and tools. On each front, > > right now there is: On a similar bent, I have been working on roffing Dennis' V1 manuals, using the earliest roff I could still find some sort of source to. It is one that was popular in the early CP/M days, that also found its way into dos and unix. How true to the original it is, I dunno, but it works. They are about 2/3 done, maybe, but my time to get them done is not as much as I would like. What should I do with them once they are done? I was thinking of just sending the source/output back to Dennis, but if it is OK to put them in in the PUPS archives, I can bounce them to Warren. Thanks to Dennis Ritchie for making them available. Bob Keys p.s. You know, with all this html thingie, whatever happened to just a real roff/nroff/troff output? It is only ascii. Why html? Just curious as to why/wherefore/etc. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA25462 for pups-liszt; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 04:59:08 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 10 months

Re: DEC in the UK and Dilog

by norman＠cs.yorku.ca

As Steven Schultz says, Dilog used to make a lot of DEC-compatible peripheral gear. The old company has been gone for years, but there is a descendant in Switzerland; see http://www.dilog.ch for details and contacts. There are still people there who can dig up info about old Dilog Qbus interfaces; I have discovered this empirically. Perhaps they know about the Vixen box; certainly they can likely find out about the Dilog disk controller. Norman Wilson Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA04264 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:34:31 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 10 months

Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In!

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On May 10, 9:49, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In! > > > From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> > > I wouldn't be *that* surprised by these results. For instance, I believe > > that longs are implemented with FP. And I wouldn't be surprised if a few > > FP ops were sneaked in to compute some stuff that aren't immediately > > appearant. > > It is true that _some_ long arithmetic is done using FP. The long > divide is done that way (at least in 2BSD, I've not looked at V7 > yet) because it is much much less code to convert the operands to > FP, do the divide, and then convert the result back (the alternative > is about two pages of code). > The C compiler itself did NOT generate FP unless the operands were > explicitly FP (float or double). Most C code was 'int' or 'char *' > and no FP code was needed or used for that. That bears out what I disovered by accident yesterday -- looking at a 7th Edition UK source distribution for 11/23's and other small machines. The READ_ME file lists the programs that have possible floating point problems, or which might be too big using emulation. I can't remember the details, but the list had a few surprises. Most of the C programs have very little FP, and that is mostly due to a small number of library routines that include FP ops, but one or two programs are exceptional. For example, 'factor' has a lot of FP at the beginning, a chunk in the middle, and a large subroutine near the end, which uses FP to compute square roots using Newton's method. factor is written in assembler, not C, and has much more FP than other things I looked at, but several other programs use a little. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA23210 for pups-liszt; Mon, 11 May 1998 08:44:05 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon May 11 08:58:57 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA23205 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 11 May 1998 08:44:02 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA02896 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 11 May 1998 09:05:06 +1000 (EST) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA23188 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 11 May 1998 08:37:53 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA02806 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 11 May 1998 08:58:57 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199805102258.IAA02806(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: PUPS Mail List welcome + news To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 08:58:57 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk We've had a regular intake of new subscribers to the PUPS mailing list, so I thought I'd say Welcome to all the newcomers. There are now 90 people on the list, and the quantity of messages is increasing daily. The mailing list is also available in a digest form, which is distributed twice a week. If you would rather be on the digest list, send mail to majordomo(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au with the lines in the body of the mail: unsubscribe pups subscribe pups-digest For more information about old UNIX, see the PUPS web pages at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS, and the FAQ in particular. The most recent news is that both Bob Supnik and the Begemot team have released new versions of their PDP-11 emulators. A further bug in Bob's emulator was found by Steven Schultz, so we might see a patch to the emulator coming out soon. The PUPS volunteers have been hard at work burning and mailing out the first batch of CDs containing the PUPS Archive, which is now about 520Megs in size. We also have about 30 people with authorised access into the on-line PUPS Archive. Dion at SCO has promised another batch of new UNIX licenses, which I should receive in the next few days. When I do, I'll post the details here. That's all for now. Ciao, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA23314 for pups-liszt; Mon, 11 May 1998 09:20:25 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon May 11 09:41:19 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA23309 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 11 May 1998 09:20:21 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA02987; Mon, 11 May 1998 09:41:19 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199805102341.JAA02987(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: PUPS Mail List welcome + news To: jkatz(a)darpanet.net (J. Joseph Max Katz) Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 09:41:19 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.3.96.980510164539.6267A-100000(a)corinne.cpio.org> from "J. Joseph Max Katz" at "May 10, 98 04:47:31 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by J. Joseph Max Katz: > Hi, > > What's the latest on the 4BSD re-release that Marshal Kirk McKusick > is doing? I've sent the list of people interested to Kirk. He's still a bit vague, but is looking at selling a 4-CD set of all the 4BSD releases for a price around US$100. That's a ballpark number, and will depend on how many people want the set: the more the cheaper it will be. I haven't heard back from him for a week or so. Should I ask him what he is planning? Please, none of this is for public consumption just yet. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA26253 for pups-liszt; Tue, 12 May 1998 04:39:53 +1000 (EST) >From Bob Supnik <Bob.Supnik(a)digital.com> Tue May 12 05:01:14 1998 Received: from mail11.digital.com (mail11.digital.com [192.208.46.10]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA26248 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 12 May 1998 04:39:46 +1000 (EST) Received: from exceng1.ako.dec.com (exceng1.ako.dec.com [16.151.72.50]) by mail11.digital.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/WV1.0e) with ESMTP id PAA07349 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 11 May 1998 15:00:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by exceng1.ako.dec.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id <KRDX27L5>; Mon, 11 May 1998 15:00:19 -0400 Message-ID: <6B84B1FF221BD011B0AC08002BE6920671F48E(a)excmso.mso.dec.com> From: Bob Supnik <Bob.Supnik(a)digital.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: vi bug found Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 15:01:14 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk For those who want vi to work before V2.3c is released, the problem is in the divide instruction. Look for: dst = src / src2; if ((dst >= 077777) || (dst < -0100000)) { and change the second line to: if ((dst > 077777) || (dst < -0100000)) { (Thanks to Steve Schultz for finding this.) The magtape bootstrap is also broken, that will be fixed in V2.3c as well. /Bob Supnik Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA27617 for pups-liszt; Tue, 12 May 1998 10:37:37 +1000 (EST) >From "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Tue May 12 10:55:24 1998 Received: from toad.xkl.com (toad.xkl.com [192.94.202.40]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA27612 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 12 May 1998 10:37:30 +1000 (EST) Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 17:55:24 -0700 From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Subject: Just got my license from SCO... To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Message-ID: <13354936165.17.DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I'm number AU-31. ------- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA27849 for pups-liszt; Tue, 12 May 1998 12:02:14 +1000 (EST) >From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Tue May 12 12:21:12 1998 Received: from renoir.op.net (root(a)renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA27844 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 12 May 1998 12:02:06 +1000 (EST) Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc2-0d.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.109]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.17 $) with SMTP id WAA16927; Mon, 11 May 1998 22:21:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199805120221.WAA16927(a)renoir.op.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> To: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 22:21:12 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In! Reply-to: edgee(a)cyberpass.net CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-reply-to: <19980508194615.O12200(a)freebie.lemis.com> References: <199805080414.AAA28438(a)renoir.op.net>; from Ed G. on Fri, May 08, 1998 at 12:14:03AM -0400 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > I don't know what the code above is intended to do, but it's not > floating point. At the very best, it would indicate the use of the > floating point registers for straightforward data moves. I stand by > my assertion that tar doesn't use floating point, neither in the > Seventh Edition nor elsewhere. I agree: tar doesn't *use* floating point. However, from what I can determine the floating point ops in tar are not some weird way of moving data around, nor is floating point being used to do long arithmetic as some have suggested. Compare the first few tar floating point ops with a dummy program consisting of a single call to scanf: tar, 106 floating point ops: 0: SETD ;170011 20532: STCFD F0,(R1) ;176011 20562: STF F0,(R1) ;174011 22406: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424 22410: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 22460: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424 22462: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 22620: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424 22622: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 24124: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004 24130: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 26616: LDF F0,#56200 ;172427 056200 26622: STF F0,177732(R5) ;174065 177732 etc. scanf, 106 floating point ops: 000000: SETD ;170011 002764: STCFD F0,(R1) ;176011 003014: STF F0,(R1) ;174011 004346: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424 004350: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 004420: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424 004422: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 004560: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424 004562: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 004750: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004 004754: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 006410: LDF F0,#56200 ;172427 056200 006414: STF F0,177732(R5) ;174065 177732 So it would appear that whatever floating point there is in tar comes from library routines which have been linked in, but which tar does not use. "When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras." Ed Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA06408 for pups-liszt; Thu, 14 May 1998 10:40:06 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu May 14 10:59:28 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA06400 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 14 May 1998 10:39:58 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA08059; Thu, 14 May 1998 10:59:28 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199805140059.KAA08059(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: More licenses from SCO To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 10:59:28 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: application/pgp; format=text; x-action=sign Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- I've received some more UNIX source licenses from SCO. The new licencees are: Craig Bevans, Brian Chase, Efton Collins, Peter Collinson, David Galloway, Jay Jaeger, Dieter Muller, Daniel Seagraves, Jason Stevens, Warren Toomey, Christopher Vance, Norman Wilson, Thomas Zenker. As always, if you are interested in obtaining access to the on-line PUPS Archive, or a copy of it on some form of media (CD, tape etc.), then please mail your request to pupsarchive(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au. You will receive an automated response with more details. The PUPS Volunteers have sent out about 6 CDs so far, and one tape(?). Cheers all, Warren -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3ia Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNVpBm0bObQUa2Z5FAQFe7gP9ERhvXqncCx1U5uyzSBo6n5TYm34XCrmi gg0KYOHhG1vNdFuXHviXQa3u9fd/8J1eNlw7e7aKAkNbfjb2jilO0XA8yU+b6D1O LsOwFuoCvgAFpdERIIeIFEmI+/fFEDsSN07/4TOazLkZgyBeWjJ45MYeew1UJZB5 r3lL++opjiA= =4xMV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA06436 for pups-liszt; Thu, 14 May 1998 10:43:48 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu May 14 11:03:12 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA06429 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 14 May 1998 10:43:44 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA08094; Thu, 14 May 1998 11:03:13 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199805140103.LAA08094(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: More licenses from SCO To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 11:03:12 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199805140059.KAA08059(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "May 14, 98 10:59:28 am" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Warren Toomey: > I've received some more UNIX source licenses from SCO. The new licencees are: I forgot to say: Dion gave me license number AU-0, at the behest of the members of the PUPS mailing list. Thanks all!! Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA09954 for pups-liszt; Mon, 18 May 1998 19:54:02 +1000 (EST) >From Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> Mon May 18 19:54:06 1998 Received: from tesla.df.lth.se (tesla.df.lth.se [194.47.252.144]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA09949 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 18 May 1998 19:53:55 +1000 (EST) Received: from lintilla2.df.lth.se (lintilla2.df.lth.se [194.47.252.38]) by tesla.df.lth.se (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA19904; Mon, 18 May 1998 11:51:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by lintilla2.df.lth.se (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA13628; Mon, 18 May 1998 11:54:07 +0200 Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 11:54:06 +0200 (MET DST) From: Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au cc: PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Exploited by spammers. In-Reply-To: <199805140059.KAA08059(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980518114414.13620B-100000(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Hi all! I want to tell you all how sorry I am for spamming occuring from this site. Due to several reasons it was possible to exploit the lintilla service machines. We hope we have put an end to it now (it was not an easy task since it involved *cringe* beurocracy). If anybody receives spams from lintilla.df.lth.se or lintilla2.df.lth.se from now on please let me know! It should not happen but.... The lintilla services machines does not approve to spam and we try to fight back as hard as we are able. Internet used to be a happy place where people helped eachother and where life was simple and good. Sometimes I long for those days now gone. =( Today it seems that greed and abuse is the rule... Again, sorry for the inconvenience that spamming from this site has caused! Sincerely yours: Lars Persson, the Lintilla services. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12548 for pups-liszt; Tue, 19 May 1998 13:03:27 +1000 (EST) >From "Ian King" <iking(a)killthewabbit.org> Tue May 19 12:50:09 1998 Received: from forbin.killthewabbit.org (killthewabbit.org [208.192.43.132]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA12542 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 19 May 1998 13:03:18 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805190148.SAA10957(a)forbin.killthewabbit.org> From: "Ian King" <iking(a)killthewabbit.org> To: "PDP Unix Preservation" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Question regarding tape drive interface Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 19:50:09 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1160 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au id NAA12544 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk OK, this may not be *exactly* the right place to ask this..... I'm in the process of acquiring a PDP-11/34, on which I intend to run *some* flavor of UNIX. I also have a Cipher F-880 tape drive, which I would like to interface with the PDP-11. Reading between the lines of several pages on the Web, it seems it should be possible to do this, but which module is required? And does that prescribe the version of UNIX I'll be able to run? Thanks in advance for any experience you can share! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 24 hours in a day, 24 beers in a case. Coincidence? Ian King <iking(a)KillTheWabbit.org> No opinions but my own. So there. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA15443 for pups-liszt; Wed, 20 May 1998 05:38:49 +1000 (EST) >From Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Wed May 20 05:33:00 1998 Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA15438 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 20 May 1998 05:38:41 +1000 (EST) Received: from (falstaf.demon.co.uk) [158.152.152.109] by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0ybs9n-0004Zb-00; Tue, 19 May 1998 20:34:39 +0100 Message-ID: <5Im5JEAs5dY1Ewa$(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 20:33:00 +0100 To: Ian King <iking(a)killthewabbit.org> Cc: PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> From: Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: Question regarding tape drive interface In-Reply-To: <199805190148.SAA10957(a)forbin.killthewabbit.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike (32) Version 3.05 <YSkKJATYm0AxAbv6xUlJqScVOx> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In message <199805190148.SAA10957(a)forbin.killthewabbit.org>, Ian King <iking(a)killthewabbit.org> writes >OK, this may not be *exactly* the right place to ask this..... > >I'm in the process of acquiring a PDP-11/34, on which I intend to run *some* >flavor of UNIX. I also have a Cipher F-880 tape drive, which I would like to >interface with the PDP-11. Reading between the lines of several pages on the >Web, it seems it should be possible to do this, but which module is required? >And does that prescribe the version of UNIX I'll be able to run? Thanks in >advance for any experience you can share! >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >---------------------------------- >24 hours in a day, 24 beers in a case. Coincidence? >Ian King <iking(a)KillTheWabbit.org> No opinions but my own. So there. Wotcher, You'll need a UNIBUS TS11 card, I don't know the number for this but it should be relatively easy to get hold of. BSD2 certainly supports this. Cheers Robin Robin Birch robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk M1ASU/2E0ARJ Old computers and radios always welcome Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA03403 for pups-liszt; Fri, 29 May 1998 13:12:02 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri May 29 13:12:02 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA03398 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 29 May 1998 13:11:58 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA01694 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 29 May 1998 13:12:02 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199805290312.NAA01694(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: More UNIX Licenses To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 13:12:02 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I've just received licenses from SCO for Don Cruickshank and Hartmut Brandt. Congrats, you two! Ciao, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA18054 for pups-liszt; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:55:01 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Jun 18 12:54:57 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA18046 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:54:57 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA04029; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:54:58 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199806180254.MAA04029(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: More UNIX Licenses To: djenner(a)halcyon.com Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:54:57 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) In-Reply-To: <35887E29.828B78E2(a)halcyon.com> from "David C. Jenner" at "Jun 17, 98 07:40:41 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by David C. Jenner: > Warren, > > I haven't received any PUPS mailing list since this message. > (May 28th). Are things that slow? It's been quiet! However, I'll send in a test message to wake everybody up :-) Ciao, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA24887 for pups-liszt; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:57:50 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Jul 6 13:58:23 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA24882 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:57:46 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA07988 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:58:23 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199807060358.NAA07988(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: More SCO Licenses + Software Tools To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:58:23 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk All, The following people now have SCO source licenses for ancient Unix: Bruce Robertson, Erick Delios, Kelwin Wylie, Kirsten McIntyre, Matthew Crosby That brings the numbering scheme up to AU-50, but in fact there are 52 SCO source licenses for ancient Unix. The mailing list has been pretty quiet. Hope you're all well. The only news I have is that Norman Wilson is still slowly scanning in the manuals from 2nd to 5th Edition. He now has most (all?) of 5th edition scanned in. I haven't heard from Kirk McKusick, but he's still planning to sell a 4CD set of all the 4BSD releases from CSRG. The cost is still expected to be around US$100, but if he gets flooded with requests, this may come down. Software Tools -------------- I got some mail last week from Deborah Scherrer: I was one of the people who created the Software Tools project and Software Tools Users Group (Peter Salus mentioned us in his book). If you're interested, you might want to include the Software Tools tapes in your collection. She suggested that I contact Barbera Chase, which I did. Barbera (bc(a)mrdata.netcetera.com) then wrote: Sorry, we don't actually have any of the files online anymore, nor do we have access to a tape drive. What we have are 9-track tapes, probably in 1600bpi. There are three versions of the tools for PDP machines, one for RSX-11 and two for "generic" Unix. I still happen to have several copies of each, and will be glad to send them to you. Just let me know where to send them, and if you happen to have a shipping account number that would be even better ;-) I don't know Barbera's geographic location. However, would anybody in the US be prepared to read these tapes for us, and pass the contents to me for inclusion in the PUPS Archive??! Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA24990 for pups-liszt; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:18:43 +1000 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Jul 6 14:18:28 1998 Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133] (may be forged)) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA24985 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:18:35 +1000 (EST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id NAA07541; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:48:29 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980706134828.B6528(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:48:28 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: More SCO Licenses + Software Tools References: <199807060358.NAA07988(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199807060358.NAA07988(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 01:58:23PM +1000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Monday, 6 July 1998 at 13:58:23 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > Software Tools > -------------- > > I got some mail last week from Deborah Scherrer: > I was one of the people who created the Software > Tools project and Software Tools Users Group (Peter Salus > mentioned us in his book). If you're interested, you might > want to include the Software Tools tapes in your collection. > > She suggested that I contact Barbera Chase, which I did. > Barbera (bc(a)mrdata.netcetera.com) then wrote: > Sorry, we don't actually have any of the files online anymore, nor do we > have access to a tape drive. What we have are 9-track tapes, probably in > 1600bpi. There are three versions of the tools for PDP machines, one for > RSX-11 and two for "generic" Unix. I still happen to have several copies > of each, and will be glad to send them to you. Just let me know where to > send them, and if you happen to have a shipping account number that would > be even better ;-) > > I don't know Barbera's geographic location. However, would anybody in the > US be prepared to read these tapes for us, and pass the contents to me for > inclusion in the PUPS Archive??! Registrant: Netcetera, Inc. (NETCETERA-DOM) 11950 Anderson Valley Way P.O. Box 939 Boonville, CA 95415 Domain Name: NETCETERA.COM Administrative Contact: Chase, Barbara L. (BC309) bc(a)NETCETERA.COM 707-895-2691 Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA27259 for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 05:16:41 +1000 (EST) >From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Tue Jul 7 05:15:30 1998 Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (mgate.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA27254 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 05:16:34 +1000 (EST) Received: from halcyon.com (blv-lx106-ip42.nwnexus.net [206.63.41.242]) by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA20935; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 12:15:35 -0700 Message-ID: <35A12252.EFEFE2B0(a)halcyon.com> Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 12:15:30 -0700 From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Reply-To: djenner(a)halcyon.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> CC: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: More SCO Licenses + Software Tools References: <199807060358.NAA07988(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <19980706134828.B6528(a)freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I think having these in the archives would be great. I used the Software Tools extensively back in the late 70's and early 80's. I wish I could read the tapes in, but I'm still working on a tape drive for an 11/73. (see separate mail.) Dave Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Monday, 6 July 1998 at 13:58:23 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > > Software Tools > > -------------- > > > > I got some mail last week from Deborah Scherrer: > > I was one of the people who created the Software > > Tools project and Software Tools Users Group (Peter Salus > > mentioned us in his book). If you're interested, you might > > want to include the Software Tools tapes in your collection. > > > > She suggested that I contact Barbera Chase, which I did. > > Barbera (bc(a)mrdata.netcetera.com) then wrote: > > Sorry, we don't actually have any of the files online anymore, nor do we > > have access to a tape drive. What we have are 9-track tapes, probably in > > 1600bpi. There are three versions of the tools for PDP machines, one for > > RSX-11 and two for "generic" Unix. I still happen to have several copies > > of each, and will be glad to send them to you. Just let me know where to > > send them, and if you happen to have a shipping account number that would > > be even better ;-) > > > > I don't know Barbera's geographic location. However, would anybody in the > > US be prepared to read these tapes for us, and pass the contents to me for > > inclusion in the PUPS Archive??! > > Registrant: > Netcetera, Inc. (NETCETERA-DOM) > 11950 Anderson Valley Way > P.O. Box 939 > Boonville, CA 95415 > > Domain Name: NETCETERA.COM > > Administrative Contact: > Chase, Barbara L. (BC309) bc(a)NETCETERA.COM > 707-895-2691 > > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address and phone numbers > finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA27294 for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 05:31:07 +1000 (EST) >From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Tue Jul 7 05:30:18 1998 Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (mgate.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA27289 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 05:30:57 +1000 (EST) Received: from halcyon.com (blv-lx106-ip42.nwnexus.net [206.63.41.242]) by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA21123; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 12:30:23 -0700 Message-ID: <35A125CA.45FB5455(a)halcyon.com> Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 12:30:18 -0700 From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Reply-To: djenner(a)halcyon.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Generating 2.11BSD boot tape References: <199807060358.NAA07988(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <19980706134828.B6528(a)freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk There hasn't been much traffic here for a while, so maybe I can stir things up a bit. I recently acquired a fabulous 9-track tape drive, an M4 9914, which has both a SCSI and a Pertec interface. This drive is so smart I spent a couple of hours playing with it without it being hooked up to any computer. What's nice is that I can presumably get around the "high-cost" bottleneck of using a tape drive on both a PDP-11 and Intel machines: use the SCSI interface on the PC where the interface is cheap (already exists) and use the Pertec interface on the -11 where the interface is cheap (already exists). Using the opposite interface on each machine could run up to a total of $2000 US. So, what I want to do is read my PUPS archive CD-ROM on an Intel machine and write appropriate 9-track tapes for the -11. The stumbling block seems to be software on the Intel side. SCSI software packages for MS-DOS or Windows 3.1/95/98/NT run $600, $800, even $1500US. There must be a way of doing a CD-to-Tape generation with a simple C-language program using one of the "free" OSes: Linux, FreeBSD, SCO UnixWare, etc. If anyone has any experience or ideas with this, I would appreciate your input. It would be very easy for me to install and use one of these OSs on a spare 486 I have. The question is, which is the most likely to support SCSI on 9-track tape. Thanks, Dave Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA28013 for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:13:27 +1000 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Jul 7 10:13:04 1998 Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133] (may be forged)) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA28008 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:13:21 +1000 (EST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id JAA10688; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 09:43:05 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980707094304.N7792(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 09:43:04 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: djenner(a)halcyon.com, wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Which PC UNIX for old SCSI tape drive? (was: Generating 2.11BSD boot tape) References: <199807060358.NAA07988(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <19980706134828.B6528(a)freebie.lemis.com> <35A125CA.45FB5455(a)halcyon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <35A125CA.45FB5455(a)halcyon.com>; from David C. Jenner on Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 12:30:18PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Monday, 6 July 1998 at 12:30:18 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote: > There hasn't been much traffic here for a while, so maybe I can stir > things up a bit. > > I recently acquired a fabulous 9-track tape drive, an M4 9914, which > has both a SCSI and a Pertec interface. This drive is so smart I > spent a couple of hours playing with it without it being hooked up to > any computer. > > What's nice is that I can presumably get around the "high-cost" > bottleneck of using a tape drive on both a PDP-11 and Intel > machines: use the SCSI interface on the PC where the interface is > cheap (already exists) and use the Pertec interface on the -11 where > the interface is cheap (already exists). Using the opposite interface > on each machine could run up to a total of $2000 US. > > So, what I want to do is read my PUPS archive CD-ROM on an Intel > machine and write appropriate 9-track tapes for the -11. The stumbling > block seems to be software on the Intel side. SCSI software packages > for MS-DOS or Windows 3.1/95/98/NT run $600, $800, even $1500US. > There must be a way of doing a CD-to-Tape generation with a simple > C-language program using one of the "free" OSes: Linux, FreeBSD, > SCO UnixWare, etc. Sure, that's the obvious way to go. > If anyone has any experience or ideas with this, I would appreciate > your input. It would be very easy for me to install and use one of > these OSs on a spare 486 I have. The question is, which is the most > likely to support SCSI on 9-track tape. I think you'll find that they all support SCSI. I'd recommend FreeBSD because I'm involved with it and because it's the closest to 2.11BSD. Next, I'd recommend Linux, because you have the sources. You could have trouble with UnixWare, in which case there wouldn't be much you could do about it. If you do have any problems with FreeBSD, let me know and I'll see what I can do. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA00657 for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 16:24:57 +1000 (EST) >From Kevin Murrell <kevin(a)xpuppy.demon.co.uk> Tue Jul 7 16:20:53 1998 Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA00649 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 16:24:50 +1000 (EST) Received: from (XPUPPY) [193.237.190.229] by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0ytRAe-00009v-00; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 06:24:09 +0000 Received: by XPUPPY with Microsoft Mail id <01BDA978.2E5F7760@XPUPPY>; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 07:23:47 +0100 Message-ID: <01BDA978.2E5F7760@XPUPPY> From: Kevin Murrell <kevin(a)xpuppy.demon.co.uk> To: "'PDP Unix Preservation'" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: DEC in the UK and Dilog Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 07:20:53 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au id QAA00650 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Can anyone shed any light on a company called Dilog. Having acquired two Dilog machines they appear to actually both be PDP-11s. Dilog seemed to have produced DEC compatible hardware for the UK market. In particular the smaller machine was known as a Vixen. This would appear to be a PDP-11/73 with the DEC M8192 processor card. Indeed the processor card is the only actual DEC product. Colleagues that used this machine described it as the portable PDP-11 - however we are not talking laptop here :) The 'Vixen' has a Dilog disk controller with a Seagate ST251 attached. The machine is currently running DSM-11 and recognises the drive as a RA81. I hope to produce a list relating the Dilog part numbers to original DEC part numbers. Any help or suggestions gratefully received. Kevin Murrell Birmingham, England. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA02684 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 01:48:44 +1000 (EST) >From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Wed Jul 8 01:44:14 1998 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA02679 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 01:48:37 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA00178; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 11:44:16 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199807071544.LAA00178(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Newbie Alert: Which is a ``best'' pdp-11 to look for????? In-Reply-To: <199807060358.NAA07988(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "Jul 6, 98 01:58:23 pm" To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 11:44:14 -0400 (EDT) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > All, > The following people now have SCO source licenses for ancient Unix: Neato.... I am beginning to think it might be a fun thing to do. As the newbie aboard, what pdp-11, vax, or other dec machine would be one to shoot for. Some are largish beasts, but for the Joe Homehobby type that wants to run one in the basement, what would be a reasonable combination of parts or units (or a whole machine) to look for? Occasionally machines float up from the bilges here in central NC, USA, and usually they wind up dumpster fodder. Rather than see that happen, if I had a choice, what should I be looking for? For convenience, if there was something that would fit in half a relay rack or so, that might be nice. Also, if it could run with standard cartridge tapes (DC300/450/600) sized things, that would be advantageous, since I have a number of those things and nil reel to reel drives. > I haven't heard from Kirk McKusick, but he's still planning to sell a 4CD > set of all the 4BSD releases from CSRG. The cost is still expected to be > around US$100, but if he gets flooded with requests, this may come down. That would be something worthwhile to have, just for posterity. > Software Tools > -------------- ...... > I don't know Barbera's geographic location. However, would anybody in the > US be prepared to read these tapes for us, and pass the contents to me for > inclusion in the PUPS Archive??! I just checked our folks.... nil reel-to-reel drives anymore..... shucks. One of the technical high schools has the only one left here in NC. Bob Keys p.s. Are there any USA NC folks on the list, or just me? Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA04090 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:15:13 +1000 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Jul 8 10:14:47 1998 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA04085 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:15:06 +1000 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA05047; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:14:47 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:14:47 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199807080014.RAA05047(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: kevin(a)xpuppy.demon.co.uk, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: DEC in the UK and Dilog Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > From: Kevin Murrell <kevin(a)xpuppy.demon.co.uk> Linebreaks please? 72-80 columns would be nice ;) > Can anyone shed any light on a company called Dilog. Not sure if they're still in the DEC business but at one time they were one of the major 3rd party vendors making Qbus and Unibus controllers. > Having acquired two Dilog machines they appear to actually both be PDP-11s. > Dilog seemed to have produced DEC compatible hardware for the UK market. I never heard of Dilog making entire systems. You'd typically buy the box from DEC (but without any controllers or as few as you could order a system from DEC with) and then stuff it with Emulex or Dilog adaptors. > In particular the smaller machine was known as a Vixen. Sounds like an OEM somewhere was buying bare systems from DEC and placing Dilog cards in them. > This would appear to be a PDP-11/73 with the DEC M8192 processor card. Indeed it is. > Indeed the processor card is the only actual DEC product. > Colleagues that used this machine described it as the portable PDP-11 - >however we are not talking laptop here :) What are the dimensions? It likely is a BA-23 box. "Transportable" would be appropriate - unless you've a *huge* (and sturdy) lap ;) > The 'Vixen' has a Dilog disk controller with a Seagate ST251 attached. > The machine is currently running DSM-11 and recognises the drive as a RA81. > I hope to produce a list relating the Dilog part numbers to original DEC > part numbers. It was/is common for controller cards to call anything over ~150mb an 'ra81' just to give the software a diskid it knew about. On the various Dilog cards you should find (either on the spine/handles or the card's front/back) a name. Something like "DQ696" (a disk controller) or "DQ132" (tape controller). If you can find any numbers at all let us know and we can probably id them for you. Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA04178 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:52:45 +1000 (EST)

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