TUHS

tuhs@tuhs.org

6 participants
6532 discussions

by norman＠nose.cita.utoronto.ca

Stuff this in the archives somewhere: V6 man macros. I can't remember where I dug it up, unfortunately. # To unbundle, sh this file echo tmac.an6 1>&2 sed 's/.//' >tmac.an6 <<'//GO.SYSIN DD tmac.an6' -'''\" Pwb Manual Entry Macros - Version 6 (@(#)an6.src 1.6) -'''\" Nroff/Troff Version @(#)1.6 -.deTH -.tmwrong version of man entry macros - use -man -.ab -.. -.rnbd Bd -.rndt Dt -.rnit il -.nr}I 5n -.nr}P 0 1 -.de}C -.ev1 -.po0 -.lt7.5i -.tl\-\- -.lt -.po -.ev -.. -.de}E -.wh-1p }C -.. -.ift .em }E -.dei0 -.in\\n(}Iu -.dt -.. -.delp -.tc -.i0 -.ta\\$2n -.in\\$1n -.ti-\\$2n -.. -.des1 -.sp1v -.ne2 -.. -.des2 -.ift .sp .5v -.ifn .sp 1v -.. -.des3 -.ift .sp .5v -.ifn .sp 1v -.ne2 -.. -.de}F -.ev1 -'ft1 -'ps10 -'sp.5i -.tl- % - -'ft -'ps -.ev -'bp -.. -.deth -.de}X -.ev1 -.ift .}C -'ft1 -'ps10 -'sp.5i -.tl''THIS MANUAL ENTRY NEEDS TO BE CONVERTED - SEE mancvt(1) and man(7)'' -.tl\\$1\|(\|\\$2\|)PWB/UNIX\| \\$3\\$1\|(\|\\$2\|) -'ps -'ft -'sp.5i -.ev -\\.. -.wh-1i }F -.wh0 }X -.if\\n+(}P>1 .bp1 -.ft1 -.ft1 -.ps10 -.vs12p -.ift .po .5i -.in\\n(}Iu -.fi -.dt -.mc -.ad -.ifn .na -.. -.desh -.s1 -.ift .ft 3 -.ps8 -.ti0 -\&\\$1 -.ift .ft -.ps -.br -.. -.deit -.ul -.ie\\nV>1 _\\$1_ -.el\&\\$1 -.. -.debd -.ift .ft 3 -.ifn .ul -.ie\\nV>1 _\\$1_ -.el\&\\$1 -.ift .ft -.. -.debn -.ift .ft 3 -.ifn .ul -.ie\\nV>1 _\\$1_\t\&\c -.el\&\\$1\t\&\c -.ift .ft -.. -.dedt -.ifn .ta 8n 16n 24n 32n 40n 48n 56n 64n 72n 80n -.ift .ta .5i 1i 1.5i 2i 2.5i 3i 3.5i 4i 4.5i 5i 5.5i 6i 6.5i -.. -'dsv \(bv -'ds' \(aa -'ds> \(-> -'dsX \(mu -'ds_ _ -'ds- \- -'dsG \(*G -'dsg \(ga -'dsp \(*p -'dsa \(aa -'dsb \(*b -'dsr \(rg -'ds| \| -'dsu \(*m -.if\nV=1 \{\ -.po4 -.ll80 -.lt80 -.ev1 -.ll80 -.lt80 -.ev\} -.if\nV>1 \{\ -.ll82 -.lt82 -.ev1 -.ll82 -.lt82 -.ev -.pl84 -.rmul\} -.hy14 -.uf2 //GO.SYSIN DD tmac.an6 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA14989 for pups-liszt; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:04:45 +1100 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Dec 30 09:03:53 1998 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA14984 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:04:35 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id PAA12398 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 15:03:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 15:03:53 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199812292303.PAA12398(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Bob Supnik's Emulator. Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Robin - Howdy. > From: Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> > I've been struggling with Bob's emulator (version 2.3d). The main 2.3d? Hmmm, sounds like a little newer one than I've used in the past (I've updated selected modules so I'm probably running 2.3d but the directory is still called 2.3b ;)) > problem appears to be around the TM device driver. I've been creating > boot programs and data on my 11/73 under 2.11 BSD. I don't think that's the case - but read on and see if my new theory sounds plausible... > Using separate bootstraps, boot and <program>, I have labeled and mkfs > an RP04. I then tried restor. Well, I can get restor to load and run > but it doesn't want to understand the dump file written with dd that is > created as part of the generation of a distribution set on the 11/73. Umm, you can't use a 'dd'd image - you have to use 'makesimtape' (or a similar utility) to add the record/file/bytecount markers that the simulator expects to see. > I suspect that there is some form of data conversion that I have to go > through before I can read the files on the emulator. Yes, there is. Not sure why it didn't occur to me earlier when you mentioned having problems. I assume you compiled and ran 'makesimtape' on the same system (Sparc) as the simulator is running. If so then it sounds to be like there's an endianness bug in makesimtape. That wouldn't surprise me since all I have are either little or pdp-11 endian systems and never tested makesimtape on a big endian machine. There are ifdefs around what I thought were the appropriate places for flipping bytes - what you'll need to do is get Bob's description of the simulated tape format (fairly simply and it's in the docs somewhere as I recall) and the makesimtape.c source and see where I "oops"d. > Has anybody installed 2.11 on the emulator from scratch. If so, can > they offer any advice. Yes, I have. But only on little endian systems. The one time (ages ago) I tried the simulator on a Sparc the program dropped core because it wasn't bigendian capable. That's been fixed but I've never tried it again. Steven Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA15089 for pups-liszt; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:21:23 +1100 (EST) >From Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Wed Dec 30 09:20:18 1998 Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.40]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA15084 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:21:14 +1100 (EST) Received: from [158.152.152.109] (helo=falstaf.demon.co.uk) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 0zv8Rf-0005cU-00; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 23:20:59 +0000 Message-ID: <Wta+ZIAyOWi2EwQ$(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 23:20:18 +0000 To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au From: Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: Bob Supnik's Emulator. In-Reply-To: <199812292303.PAA12398(a)moe.2bsd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike (32) Version 3.05 <YSkKJATYm0AxAbv6xUlJqScVOx> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In message <199812292303.PAA12398(a)moe.2bsd.com>, Steven M. Schultz <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> writes >Robin - > I don't think that's the case - but read on and see if my new > theory sounds plausible... > I think that I've independantly come up with the same answer but by a different logical root. >> Using separate bootstraps, boot and <program>, I have labeled and mkfs >> an RP04. I then tried restor. Well, I can get restor to load and run >> but it doesn't want to understand the dump file written with dd that is >> created as part of the generation of a distribution set on the 11/73. > > Umm, you can't use a 'dd'd image - you have to use 'makesimtape' > (or a similar utility) to add the record/file/bytecount markers that > the simulator expects to see. > Now this is what I didn't realise at first. All I thought makesimtape was doing was packaging up the files, not writing some structure around them. >> I suspect that there is some form of data conversion that I have to go >> through before I can read the files on the emulator. > > Yes, there is. Not sure why it didn't occur to me earlier when you > mentioned having problems. > > I assume you compiled and ran 'makesimtape' on the same system > (Sparc) as the simulator is running. > This is the big one, no. I had assumed that as the simulator was emulating a PDP that it would accept files generated to look like boot files etc built on a pdp so I'm running makesimtape in the standalone direcctory of the 11/73. Nieve maybe but at least it was logical :-). > If so then it sounds to be like there's an endianness bug in > makesimtape. That wouldn't surprise me since all I have are > either little or pdp-11 endian systems and never tested makesimtape > on a big endian machine. > What I'll do is build makesimtape on the sun and see what happens then. > There are ifdefs around what I thought were the appropriate places > for flipping bytes - what you'll need to do is get Bob's description > of the simulated tape format (fairly simply and it's in the docs > somewhere as I recall) and the makesimtape.c source and see where I > "oops"d. Back in a mo. Robin ____________________________________________________________________ Robin Birch robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk M1ASU/2E0ARJ Old computers and radios always welcome Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA15164 for pups-liszt; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:34:30 +1100 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Dec 30 09:33:50 1998 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA15159 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:34:21 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id PAA12655 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 15:33:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 15:33:50 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199812292333.PAA12655(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Bob Supnik's Emulator. Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Robin - > From robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 29 15:21:08 1998 > > Umm, you can't use a 'dd'd image - you have to use 'makesimtape' > > (or a similar utility) to add the record/file/bytecount markers that > Now this is what I didn't realise at first. All I thought makesimtape > was doing was packaging up the files, not writing some structure around It's writing simulated bytecounts and simulated file and tape marks ;) > > I assume you compiled and ran 'makesimtape' on the same system > > > This is the big one, no. I had assumed that as the simulator was Ah, ok - so you're running the makesimtape program on an 11. That would tend to point the finger at the program not flipping the 'structure' bytes into correct big endian order. > emulating a PDP that it would accept files generated to look like boot > files etc built on a pdp so I'm running makesimtape in the standalone > directory of the 11/73. Nieve maybe but at least it was logical :-). The "data" is PDP-11 specific, but the "structure" bytes need to be in a canonical (big endian) form. I was pretty sure the endianness was ok but I guess not. Another possibility is that there's an alignment disagreement. The 11 might be putting something on a 2 byte bound where the Sun expects a 4 byte alignment. > > There are ifdefs around what I thought were the appropriate places > > for flipping bytes - what you'll need to do is get Bob's description > Back in a mo. If you find (and fix ;-)) it let me know and I'll integrate the changes into makesimtape.c in the 2.11 tree (and eventually in to the PUPS archive). Steve Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA15193 for pups-liszt; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:42:04 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Dec 30 09:43:56 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA15188 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:41:57 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA23709; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:43:56 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199812292343.KAA23709(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Converting Sixth Edition man pages To: grog(a)lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:43:56 +1100 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <19981229123952.B12346(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Dec 29, 98 12:39:52 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Greg Lehey: > I have the Sixth Edition man pages on my machine, but I can't do much > with them, since they use obsolete macros. Is there any way to > convert them to the Seventh Edition style? > > Greg Here's a quick hack which is a start. It's a Perl script called fix: #!/usr/bin/perl while (<>) { s/^\.br/.BR/; if (/^\.bd/) { if (/\"/) { s/^\.bd/.B/; print; $_=".br\n"; } else { s/^\.bd/.B/; } } s/^\.bl/.BL/; s/^\.it/.I/; s/^\.sh/.SH/; s/^\.th/.TH/; s/^\.s3/.PP/; s/\\\*/\\/g; print; } I've run the V6 section 1 manuals through it, then nroffed them using GNU nroff under FreeBSD 2.2.x, and I get only the following error messages: # for i in *.1 > do perl /tmp/fix $i | nroff -man > /dev/null > done <standard input>:428: can't set diversion trap when no current diversion <standard input>:95: can't set diversion trap when no current diversion <standard input>:77: can't set diversion trap when no current diversion <standard input>:40: can't set diversion trap when no current diversion <standard input>:119: can't set diversion trap when no current diversion <standard input>:132: normal or special character expected (got a node) <standard input>:137: a tab character is not allowed in an escape name <standard input>:83: cannot use a space as a starting delimiter <standard input>:127: can't set diversion trap when no current diversion <standard input>:93: can't set diversion trap when no current diversion <standard input>:75: can't set diversion trap when no current diversion <standard input>:64: can't set diversion trap when no current diversion <standard input>:36: can't set diversion trap when no current diversion <standard input>:154: a tab character is not allowed before an argument <standard input>:182: a tab character is not allowed before an argument <standard input>:182: error: end of file while ignoring input lines <standard input>:95: can't set diversion trap when no current diversion <standard input>:95: can't set diversion trap when no current diversion I haven't eyeballed the output from them all, but ls(1), sh(1), db(1) and roff(1) look ok. Send in any improvements!! Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA15247 for pups-liszt; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:59:06 +1100 (EST) >From Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> Wed Dec 30 09:58:25 1998 Received: from mpl.ucsd.edu (chiton.ucsd.edu [192.135.238.128]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA15242 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:58:57 +1100 (EST) Received: (from cdl@localhost) by mpl.ucsd.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id PAA16791; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 15:58:25 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 15:58:25 -0800 (PST) From: Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> Message-Id: <199812292358.PAA16791(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> To: dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au, grog(a)lemis.com Subject: Re: Converting Sixth Edition man pages Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > From owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Tue Dec 29 15:07 PST 1998 > Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 09:48:10 +1100 (EST) > From: Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> > X-Sender: dave@fgh > To: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> > cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> > > On Tue, 29 Dec 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > In fact, I'm not sure that just viewing them *would* be easier. From > > observation, the markup isn't too different from the -an macros. A > > lot of the macros seem to be the same, just in a different case. But > > there are enough differences that I wouldn't want to tackle it right > > now. > > Do you have thee 6th Edition documentation to tell you what the macros > do? I have them somewhere... > > -- A quick check around some computers that I have on-line shows two sets of v6 man macros, one for nroff and one for troff. This is on a NeXT running NeXTstep 3.3. But I suspect that these same macros are available on anything with a BSD 4.3 flavor. /usr/lib/tmac/tmac.an6n /usr/lib/tmac/tmac.an6t About 200 lines total between them. With the right macros, [ntg]roff should be able to do everything else. carl carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego clowenstein(a)ucsd.edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA15274 for pups-liszt; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:06:51 +1100 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Dec 30 10:06:30 1998 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA15267 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:06:42 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id QAA12964 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 16:06:30 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 16:06:30 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199812300006.QAA12964(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Tape endianness in Bob's simulator Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - In glancing thru Bob's simulator I spotted this: * Endian independent binary I/O package For consistency, all binary data read and written by the simulator is stored in little endian data order. That is, in a multi-byte data item, the bytes are written out right to left, low order byte to high order byte. On a big endian host, data is read and written from high byte to low byte. Consequently, data written on a little endian system must be byte reversed to be usable on a big endian system, and vice versa. Perhaps this sheds some light on why a Sparc can't read a pdp-11 generated (via 'makesimtape') tape. I know I've read simulated tape files on an Intel system with no trouble - so it would appear that the endianness was correct. Good Luck Robin! ;) Steven Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA15356 for pups-liszt; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:53:44 +1100 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Wed Dec 30 10:51:48 1998 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA15351 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:53:20 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA06005; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:21:44 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id LAA35293; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:21:48 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19981230112148.C32696(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:21:48 +1030 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: rt11 and disk images References: <199812292107.NAA11417(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199812292107.NAA11417(a)moe.2bsd.com>; from Steven M. Schultz on Tue, Dec 29, 1998 at 01:07:32PM -0800 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tuesday, 29 December 1998 at 13:07:32 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > The TQK25 formats the tape in a 'variable' record mode format that > is (as far as I know) peculiar to DEC (or who ever built the TK25 > for them). This makes the TK25 look and feel like a 9-track drive > (record boundaries are preserved) which is nice. > > Unfortunately most (all?) QIC drives in the "PC" world end up in a > 'fixed record' mode (which loses the concept of record size). So > while you might have a DC600A drive on a Linux system it will, odds are, > only write in fixed record mode which the TQK25 probably won't like. > Have to try it and see what happens. I believe the new CAM driver for FreeBSD 3.0 can do variable block lengths on QIC drives. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id XAA16818 for pups-liszt; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 23:31:23 +1100 (EST) >From Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Wed Dec 30 22:28:31 1998 Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.40]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA16813 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 23:31:13 +1100 (EST) Received: from [158.152.152.109] (helo=falstaf.demon.co.uk) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 0zvKmJ-0002Hl-00; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 12:31:07 +0000 Message-ID: <qKdBgFAvxhi2EwFc(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 12:28:31 +0000 To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au From: Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: Tape endianness in Bob's simulator In-Reply-To: <199812300006.QAA12964(a)moe.2bsd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike (32) Version 3.05 <YSkKJATYm0AxAbv6xUlJqScVOx> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In message <199812300006.QAA12964(a)moe.2bsd.com>, Steven M. Schultz <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> writes > I know I've read simulated tape files on an Intel system with no > trouble - so it would appear that the endianness was correct. > > Good Luck Robin! ;) > > Steven Steven, I now have a makesimtape that creates the bootstrap files correctly. I have found, I think, one bug and partly rewritten another bit just to put my mind at rest about a couple of things. I still can't create the root correctly though. What I have found: 1) Your endianness is correct, it took me a couple of sample programs and rewrites to prove it. In doing this I have replaced trl with another bit of code that does the same thing but is easier to play around with to change the byte orders. 2) There are two bugs in the use of writev. These are: 2.1) When writing the headers and data you are writing a long to the file where iovec only supports (I think) an unsigned short. 2.2) When writing the tape marks you are writing an integer as though it was a long. Of the two 2.2 is the most significant (I think). After correcting both of these. By changing zero from an int to a long and by replacing the writevs with writes for the headers, data and trailers I have a version of makesimtape that creates a bootstrap file that works. I can load and run all of the bootstrap programs as though I was looking at a real pdp which I couldn't before. This makes me think that I have probably got makesimtape about right. Now for the bad bit. I have created a root.dump then run it through makesimtape with the command file: /usr/root.dump 2 * 1 and it won't load from restor. I get a succession of "missing address (header) block" errors but I successfully detect the end of the tape and restor stops running, as it is supposed to do. So, am I doing something wrong in creating the root file? or is there something still wrong with makesimtape?. This is probably a red herring but the distribution tapes are written with a blocksize of 20 for all of the data after the bootstraps whilst makesimtape only writes multiples of 512. Advice please Robin ____________________________________________________________________ Robin Birch robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk M1ASU/2E0ARJ Old computers and radios always welcome Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id CAA17289 for pups-liszt; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 02:53:20 +1100 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu Dec 31 01:52:58 1998 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA17284 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 02:53:10 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id HAA10714 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 07:52:58 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 07:52:58 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199812301552.HAA10714(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Tape endianness in Bob's simulator Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Robin - > From robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 30 04:31:15 1998 > What I have found: > > 1) Your endianness is correct, it took me a couple of sample programs Whew - that's a relief. > 2) There are two bugs in the use of writev. These are: > > 2.1) When writing the headers and data you are writing a long to the > file where iovec only supports (I think) an unsigned short. iovec can write as much as it wants to. To write a 'long' one simply stuffs the _address_ of the long variable into iov_base and "sizeof long" into iov_len. I'm not sure what you mean by iovec only supporting a short. > 2.2) When writing the tape marks you are writing an integer as though it > was a long. It isn't? Oops. On some systms (those where "sizeof long == sizeof int") 'zero' would be a long. Sigh - I've been contaminated by machines where that assumption is true. > Now for the bad bit. I have created a root.dump then run it through > makesimtape with the command file: > > /usr/root.dump 2 > * 1 > > and it won't load from restor. I get a succession of "missing address > (header) block" errors but I successfully detect the end of the tape and > restor stops running, as it is supposed to do. > So, am I doing something wrong in creating the root file? or is there Uh, yes ;) 'dump' tapes *must* consist of 10kb records. 'restore' is expecting 10kb (or 20 sector) records and complaining about the shortness of what it is reading. > something still wrong with makesimtape?. This is probably a red herring > but the distribution tapes are written with a blocksize of 20 for all of > the data after the bootstraps whilst makesimtape only writes multiples > of 512. Correct. The bootblock+boot needs to be 512 byte records so the boot rom can deal with it. The standalone programs are 1kb records (because that's the filesystem block size and to make the 'seeking' in the pseudo-stdio routines possible/simple). All the _data_ files are 10kb records because that's what 'tar' and 'dump' use. Steven Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id DAA17381 for pups-liszt; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 03:15:43 +1100 (EST) >From Michael Kraus <belfry(a)nsw.bigpond.net.au> Thu Dec 31 02:13:57 1998 Received: from m4.c2.telstra-mm.net.au ([24.192.3.19]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA17376 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 03:15:36 +1100 (EST) Received: from m5.c2.telstra-mm.net.au (m5.c2.telstra-mm.net.au [24.192.3.20]) by m4.c2.telstra-mm.net.au (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with ESMTP id DAA06722 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 03:15:32 +1100 (EDT) Received: from nsw.bigpond.net.au (UNKNOWN061179.rev.telstra-mm.net.au [24.192.61.179]) by m5.c2.telstra-mm.net.au (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with ESMTP id DAA17024 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 03:15:31 +1100 (EDT) Message-ID: <368A5145.BE11CED3(a)nsw.bigpond.net.au> Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 03:13:57 +1100 From: Michael Kraus <belfry(a)nsw.bigpond.net.au> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: PDP Free to good home... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk G'day all... I've got a DEC Pro/350 machine (including Pro OS and manuals, etc), as well as a serial printer for it. I've been planning on putting UNIX on it, and tracking down a network card for it. However, I don't really have enough time or space to do such. It is a PDP (unsure if it is a PDP-11 or not... I did find out, but that was a while ago). I'm pretty sure that you will be able to get it to run UNIX (v6, I think). Rather then let it sit useless in my hall, I thought one of you guys (or girls, as the case may be) may appreciate it more than what I currently am. The only cost involved would be the cost of getting yourself here, picking it up and taking it back home. FYI, I live in Paddington (NSW). Email me if you are interested. Michael. P.s. It is in my posssesion as my father is a doctor and it was in use for many years in his practice. (Its only recently that they upgraded as it suited the purpose so well!)

26 years, 6 months

Converting Sixth Edition man pages

by Greg Lehey

I have the Sixth Edition man pages on my machine, but I can't do much with them, since they use obsolete macros. Is there any way to convert them to the Seventh Edition style? Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id TAA12241 for pups-liszt; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 19:12:50 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Dec 29 18:14:38 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA12236 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 19:12:44 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA22809; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 19:14:38 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199812290814.TAA22809(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Converting Sixth Edition man pages To: grog(a)lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 19:14:38 +1100 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) In-Reply-To: <19981229123952.B12346(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Dec 29, 98 12:39:52 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Greg Lehey: > I have the Sixth Edition man pages on my machine, but I can't do much > with them, since they use obsolete macros. Is there any way to > convert them to the Seventh Edition style? > > Greg My off-the-cuff suggestion is to read the man(7) pages for both V6 and V7, and write a Perl script to make the changes :-) That's probably the `best' solution, but would take time. Do you want to preserve the markup, or just want to view the manpages? Just viewing them would be easier, of course! Ciao, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id TAA12285 for pups-liszt; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 19:19:35 +1100 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Dec 29 18:19:09 1998 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA12280 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 19:19:25 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA02758; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 18:49:07 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id SAA33530; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 18:49:09 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19981229184909.O32696(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 18:49:09 +1030 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Converting Sixth Edition man pages References: <19981229123952.B12346(a)freebie.lemis.com> <199812290814.TAA22809(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199812290814.TAA22809(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Tue, Dec 29, 1998 at 07:14:38PM +1100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tuesday, 29 December 1998 at 19:14:38 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Greg Lehey: >> I have the Sixth Edition man pages on my machine, but I can't do much >> with them, since they use obsolete macros. Is there any way to >> convert them to the Seventh Edition style? > > My off-the-cuff suggestion is to read the man(7) pages for both V6 and V7, > and write a Perl script to make the changes :-) That's probably the `best' > solution, but would take time. perl? What's perl? :-) But yes, that was one alternative, one I hadn't thought worth the trouble. > Do you want to preserve the markup, or just want to view the manpages? > Just viewing them would be easier, of course! In fact, I'm not sure that just viewing them *would* be easier. From observation, the markup isn't too different from the -an macros. A lot of the macros seem to be the same, just in a different case. But there are enough differences that I wouldn't want to tackle it right now. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key

26 years, 6 months

4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 release

by Michael Sokolov

Dear PUPS/TUHS members, About three hours ago I have released 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0, the latest release of 4.3BSD-*. This release has the 4.3-Tahoe userland and a kernel that supports all hardware supported by CSRG's Tahoe and Reno releases, including KA630 and KA650 MicroVAXen. You can find 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 under Distributions/4bsd/43quasi0.vax in the PUPS archive. It is by far the newest system in the archive, compiled only a couple of days ago. I haven't got around to implementing a standalone disk labeling facility yet, so installing it on a typical MicroVAX with third-party MSCP disks is still a little bit of a challenge. While working on building this release, I and Tim Shoppa have come up with a usable solution to this disklabel problem. It appears in Distributions/4bsd/tips/QTR_disklabel_note. This approach also works with VAX builds of CSRG's Tahoe and Reno releases (QTR stands for Quasijarus, Tahoe, and Reno). Have fun with it! Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Cellular phone: 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET

26 years, 6 months

2.11BSD

by Erin W. Corliss

I know you've all been on the edge of your seats waiting for this, but... I finally got my PDP-11/73 working, using a wyse terminal instead of my PC -- for some reason neither of the serial ports were sending on the PC (but then again, I boughtthe motherboard in an alley in korea three years ago)... Anyway, it boots up with RSTS/E version 9, which is OK in it's own little way, I guess, but I'd rather be running Unix on it. So where can I download the binaries for 2.11BSD? -- Erin Corliss Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA02429 for pups-liszt; Sat, 26 Dec 1998 15:03:53 +1100 (EST) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Sat Dec 26 14:03:36 1998 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (trailing-edge.wdn.com [198.232.144.27]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA02424 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Sat, 26 Dec 1998 15:03:42 +1100 (EST) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU; Fri, 25 Dec 1998 23:03:36 -0500 Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 23:03:36 -0500 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU Message-Id: <981225230336.206000db(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: 2.11BSD Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >I know you've all been on the edge of your seats waiting for this, but... > >I finally got my PDP-11/73 working, using a wyse terminal instead of my PC >-- for some reason neither of the serial ports were sending on the PC (but >then again, I boughtthe motherboard in an alley in korea three years >ago)... There are at least two different standards for the ribbon-cable-to-D-sub adapters, and of course it's guaranteed that you'll use the wront type :-). > Anyway, it boots up with RSTS/E version 9, which is OK in it's > own little way, I guess, but I'd rather be running Unix on it. > So where can I download the binaries for 2.11BSD? Easiest way is for you to tell us what sort of load media you can use and have someone write an install tape for you. Do you have a TK50 or other tape drive on the system? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id VAA03169 for pups-liszt; Sat, 26 Dec 1998 21:31:23 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sat Dec 26 20:32:47 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA03164 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 26 Dec 1998 21:31:17 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA20488; Sat, 26 Dec 1998 21:32:47 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199812261032.VAA20488(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: 2.11BSD (but no src license) To: grog(a)lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 21:32:47 +1100 (EST) Cc: erin(a)coffee.corliss.net In-Reply-To: <19981226180625.S12346(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Dec 26, 98 06:06:25 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Greg Lehey: > On Friday, 25 December 1998 at 23:09:48 -0800, Erin W. Corliss wrote: > > On Sat, 26 Dec 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> Do you have an Ancient UNIX license? I don't see you in our list. > >> You'll need one before we can give you a copy of the software. > > > > Nope. I have a licensed copy of RSTS/E I could trade, though... 8^) No, > > actually, I think I found another source for it, but thanks for the > > concern. > > PUPS is very glad to have been able to have created the possibility of > legally using these old versions of UNIX. Please don't make things > difficult by abusing somebody's cooperation. You can get it legally; > see http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/getlicense.html for more details. > > Greg What Greg says is true: we can't give you access to any UNIX source code unless you have a UNIX source license from SCO. However.... I should ask Dion at SCO if we could distribute binary-only distributions of 2.x BSD without a license. After all, freely distributable binary-only distributions for v5, v6, v7 and Venix (System III-ish) exist. Just a thought, but for now you do need a source license. Cheers, Warren

26 years, 6 months

PDP11/83 qbus layout.

by Jorgen Pehrson

(Sorry for the rather lenghty post) Hi, I'd just try to boot my newly aquired PDP11/83 and was planning to install 2.11BSD. But I've run into one (small?) problem. If I just try to boot from DU0: it says: Trying DU0 Error 20 Controller Error And if I boot the install tape from the TK70 drive and run disklabel, all accesses to the RD53 drive just times out. So I was going to remove all unwanted QBus boards from the boxes. And that's what I was going to ask... Is there something special I have to think about, like there's some slots that can't be used, some boards must be in a specific slot and so on? This is the current layout (which is exactly as it was when it was taken offline, or so I think) 11/83 (173QA-B3, I think this is a normal BA23 enclosure): (As seen from the back) Also contains one TK70 drive. ____________________________________________ |Dataram 40903 revG | Empty slot | (2mb ram) --------------------------------------------- | M8637-EH | (2mb ram) --------------------------------------------- | M8190-AE | (83 CPU) --------------------------------------------- | M7559 | M7504 | (TK70, DEQNA) --------------------------------------------- | M8020 | Empty slot | (console?) --------------------------------------------- | M7957 | (DZV11) --------------------------------------------- | m3104 | (DHV11) --------------------------------------------- | M9404 | Empty slot | (1st Qbus conn) --------------------------------------------- Expansion box (173QA-B3) (From the back) Also contains one RD53 and one dual floppy. _____________________________________________ |M9405-YA | Empty slot | (2nd qbus conn) --------------------------------------------- | m3104 | (DHV11) --------------------------------------------- | m9047 | m9047 | (grant cont x2) --------------------------------------------- | m7555 | Empty slot | (RQDX3) --------------------------------------------- | m7512 | Empty slot | (RQDX1E) --------------------------------------------- Plus one external disk box with two RD53 drive. (This system only uses one drive though.) Now, what I obviously want to keep is: the two RAM boards, the CPU, the console board, tk70 controller, deqna, rqdx3. What I want to loose: the rest of the serial boards, the rqdx1e board and the floppy drive. What do I have to do to make this work? I would preferrably want to fit all those boards in the main CPU enclosure box. Do I have to re-assign any addresses (or vectors, or what the correct PDP-speak is). Are there any slots in the enclosure that are a no-no for the dual-sized boards? Thanks for any input!! Jorgen Pehrson HP 9000/380 (NetBSD/hp300 1.3) jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se DECstation 5000/200 (NetBSD/pmax 1.3) http://spektr.ludvika.se/museum PDP11/83 (2.11BSD) VAX2000 (NetBSD/vax) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id BAA28023 for pups-liszt; Fri, 25 Dec 1998 01:16:27 +1100 (EST) >From Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Fri Dec 25 00:10:43 1998 Received: from post.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA28018 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 25 Dec 1998 01:16:17 +1100 (EST) Received: from [158.152.152.109] (helo=falstaf.demon.co.uk) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 0ztBYh-0002Ra-00; Thu, 24 Dec 1998 14:16:11 +0000 Message-ID: <sB9s7CAjtkg2EwEL(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 14:10:43 +0000 To: Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se> Cc: PDP11 UNIX Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> From: Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: PDP11/83 qbus layout. In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.05.9812232234500.23424-100000(a)spektr.ludvika.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike (32) Version 3.05 <YSkKJATYm0AxAbv6xUlJqScVOx> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In message <Pine.NEB.4.05.9812232234500.23424-100000(a)spektr.ludvika.se>, Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se> writes > >(Sorry for the rather lenghty post) > Don't worry about that. >Hi, >I'd just try to boot my newly aquired PDP11/83 and was planning to install >2.11BSD. But I've run into one (small?) problem. If I just try to boot >from DU0: it says: > >Trying DU0 > >Error 20 >Controller Error > >And if I boot the install tape from the TK70 drive and run disklabel, >all accesses to the RD53 drive just times out. So I was going to remove >all unwanted QBus boards from the boxes. And that's what I was going to >ask... > A good plan > >Is there something special I have to think about, like there's some slots >that can't be used, some boards must be in a specific slot and so on? > There are rules about where boards can go which is an off shoot of the BG lines and so on. >This is the current layout (which is exactly as it was when it was taken >offline, or so I think) > >11/83 (173QA-B3, I think this is a normal BA23 enclosure): >(As seen from the back) Also contains one TK70 drive. > > ____________________________________________ >|Dataram 40903 revG | Empty slot | (2mb ram) >--------------------------------------------- >| M8637-EH | (2mb ram) >--------------------------------------------- >| M8190-AE | (83 CPU) >--------------------------------------------- >| M7559 | M7504 | (TK70, DEQNA) >--------------------------------------------- >| M8020 | Empty slot | (console?) >--------------------------------------------- >| M7957 | (DZV11) >--------------------------------------------- >| m3104 | (DHV11) >--------------------------------------------- >| M9404 | Empty slot | (1st Qbus conn) >--------------------------------------------- > >Expansion box (173QA-B3) >(From the back) Also contains one RD53 and one dual floppy. > >_____________________________________________ >|M9405-YA | Empty slot | (2nd qbus conn) >--------------------------------------------- >| m3104 | (DHV11) >--------------------------------------------- >| m9047 | m9047 | (grant cont x2) >--------------------------------------------- >| m7555 | Empty slot | (RQDX3) >--------------------------------------------- >| m7512 | Empty slot | (RQDX1E) >--------------------------------------------- > >Plus one external disk box with two RD53 drive. (This system only uses one >drive though.) > >Now, what I obviously want to keep is: >the two RAM boards, the CPU, the console board, tk70 controller, deqna, >rqdx3. > What you are calling the console board probably isn't, or if it is then you want to use the one from the CPU card rather than the M8020 (DPV11 I think?). >What I want to loose: >the rest of the serial boards, the rqdx1e board and the floppy drive. > What I suggest is this. Keep the CPU and the mem, the TK controller and tape, the deqna, the RQDX3 and a serial card (You never know when a spare serial port is going to be useful - printers, simple comms to a PC, spare terminal etc etc etc). A possible layout would be: |Dataram 40903 revG | Empty slot | (2mb ram) --------------------------------------------- | M8637-EH | (2mb ram) --------------------------------------------- | M8190-AE | (83 CPU) --------------------------------------------- | M7559 | M7504 | (TK70, DEQNA) --------------------------------------------- | M7957/M3104 | (DZV11) or (DHV11) --------------------------------------------- | M7555 | Empty slot | ---------------------------------------------- | Empty slot | Empty slot | --------------------------------------------- | Empty slot | Empty slot | --------------------------------------------- >What do I have to do to make this work? I would preferrably want to fit >all those boards in the main CPU enclosure box. Do I have to re-assign any >addresses (or vectors, or what the correct PDP-speak is). Are there any >slots in the enclosure that are a no-no for the dual-sized boards? > You would have to check with others which of the serial boards is best supported under 2.11BSD. Steve Schultz is your best point of contact for this. Looking at you aoriginal configuration I think that the empty slot by your M8020 is your problem (unless there is a bus grant card in there) as there wouldn't be any BG continuity. This should work and allow you to ditch all of the rest. (saving it for a rainy day of course :-)). Regards Robin ____________________________________________________________________ Robin Birch robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk M1ASU/2E0ARJ Old computers and radios always welcome

26 years, 6 months

Re: Problems booting 2.11 on a 11/84

by Steven M. Schultz

Hi - > From: Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com> > I have connected a Fujisu M2444 9 track to an Emulex TC13 that is in my > 11/84. The following is what happens when I try to boot a BSD 2.11 tape > that I made on my uVax3600/TU81+ (@6250 bpi): What CSR do you have the TC13 set for? > Enter device name and unit number then press the RETURN key: MS0 > Trying MS0 (tape starts rolling) > > Starting ROM boot > > 140276 (tape stops) > @ The Boot ROM did it's job of reading in the 512 byte boot record and transferring control to location 0. The bootblock relocates itself to 48kb which is 0140000. > cables on the M2444 the LED on the TC13 comes on and the M2444 will not do > anything. I don't think the problem is cabling in this case. If you have another system that you can view the sources with the file you really need to have in front of you at this time is /usr/src/sys/pdpstand/mtboot.s The section of code where the system is halting (with added octal offsets) is: 0262 bne ctlerr 0264 bit $!1000,hter(csr) / any drive errs except HTER_FCE 0272 beq bumpaddr / no, go bump address ctlerr: 0274 halt The label 'ctlerr' is shared but it indicates that a controller error was encountered out of the 'tmtscom' common logic (shared between the MT and MS drivers): tmtscom: bit $100200,(csr) / error or ready? beq tmtscom / neither, keep looking bmi ctlerr / error - go halt The thing to try is when the system halts looking at the registers (R0 thru R5) _and_ the tape controller registers (starting at 0172520). It's also possible to look at the command buffer being presented to the controller by looking at offset 0460 (0140460). Not sure how useful that will be though. It might be possible to single step the processor starting at location 0 as long as R0 and R1 are set up correctly (R0 has the unit number and R1 the control register address which is 172522 for MS and MT devices). Steven Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA16654 for pups-liszt; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 09:18:17 +1100 (EST) >From Mike Jenkins <mjenkins(a)carp.gbr.epa.gov> Tue Dec 22 08:17:50 1998 Received: from carp.gbr.epa.gov (carp.gbr.epa.gov [204.46.159.110]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA16649 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 09:18:08 +1100 (EST) Received: (from mjenkins@localhost) by carp.gbr.epa.gov (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA15443 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 16:17:50 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from mjenkins) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 16:17:50 -0600 (CST) From: Mike Jenkins <mjenkins(a)carp.gbr.epa.gov> Message-Id: <199812212217.QAA15443(a)carp.gbr.epa.gov> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Unix History Diagram In-Reply-To: <199812142344.KAA05594(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk There is a diagram at The Internet Operating System Counter which is at http://www.hzo.cubenet.de/ioscount/. Take the "Unix networking" link. It was published in iX, a German magazine. Mike Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA17356 for pups-liszt; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 13:44:57 +1100 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Dec 22 12:44:15 1998 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA17348 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 13:44:47 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id NAA01429; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 13:14:15 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id NAA08618; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 13:14:16 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19981222131415.A85005(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 13:14:15 +1030 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: Mike Jenkins <mjenkins(a)carp.gbr.epa.gov>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Unix History Diagram References: <199812142344.KAA05594(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <199812212217.QAA15443(a)carp.gbr.epa.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199812212217.QAA15443(a)carp.gbr.epa.gov>; from Mike Jenkins on Mon, Dec 21, 1998 at 04:17:50PM -0600 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Monday, 21 December 1998 at 16:17:50 -0600, Mike Jenkins wrote: > There is a diagram at The Internet Operating System Counter which is at > http://www.hzo.cubenet.de/ioscount/. Take the "Unix networking" link. > It was published in iX, a German magazine. As I feared when I heard it came from iX, it's *very* inaccurate. For example, it claims that 1BSD was derived from 32/V (should have been 3BSD), derives 1BSD from 1BSD and 4.1BSD (should be 4BSD) from the second 1BSD (should be 3BSD), derives ``BSDI'' from 4.3BSD, when in fact BSD/OS is derived from 4.4BSD, doesn't mention System V(.1) or System V.3, etc. And all this is OS code, not networking code. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA21472 for pups-liszt; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 06:06:48 +1100 (EST) >From Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com> Wed Dec 23 05:16:49 1998 Received: from mail.calweb.com (mail.calweb.com [208.131.56.12]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA21466 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 06:06:34 +1100 (EST) Received: by mail.calweb.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id LAA20458 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 11:06:23 -0800 (PST) X-SMTP: helo rgc from rickgc(a)calweb.com server @12.22.0.83 ip 12.22.0.83 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19981222111606.008f4450(a)pop.calweb.com> X-Sender: rickgc(a)pop.calweb.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 11:16:49 -0800 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) From: Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com> Subject: Emulex TU13 Dip Switch Layout? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Dear PUPS List, I have an Emulex TU13 tape drive interface. Does anyone on the list have the dip switch layout so that I can program them properly? Thank You, Merry Christmas, Rick Copeland

26 years, 6 months

Moving a RL02..

by Jorgen Pehrson

Hi, I was given a couple of QBus PDP11 on which I'm going to run 2.11BSD or some other version of UNIX. One /73 and one /83. Both had RL02 drives, a couple of RD53's and loads of serial boards and an extra expansion box each. Now there's that little question of lugging them back to my apartment. So, is there any particular precaution I should take when it comes to the RL02's? Are they sensitive to vibrations or something? Do they have to be in some sort of transport mode? Is there some information available online which explains how to operate the RL02? Like how to open the drive, for starters... :) Or how the RL02 controller should be jumpered. (I guess that depends on what else is present on the QBus though...) Is there some other UNIX version that I can run on any of these machines? I already have one PDP11/83 which happily runs 2.11BSD so it would be nice to run older UNIX versions as well. Thanks! -- Jorgen Pehrson HP 9000/380 (NetBSD/hp300 1.3) jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se DECstation 5000/200 (NetBSD/pmax 1.3) http://spektr.ludvika.se/museum PDP11/83 (2.11BSD) VAX2000 (NetBSD/vax) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA12528 for pups-liszt; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 10:18:04 +1100 (EST) >From "James E. Carpenter" <jimc(a)zach1.tiac.net> Mon Dec 21 09:17:43 1998 Received: from mail-out-0.tiac.net (mail-out-0.tiac.net [199.0.65.247]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA12523 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 10:17:54 +1100 (EST) Received: from mail-out-1.tiac.net (mail-out-1.tiac.net [199.0.65.12]) by mail-out-0.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA28527; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 18:17:48 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jimc(a)zach1.tiac.net) Received: from zach1.tiac.net (zach1.tiac.net [206.119.129.250]) by mail-out-1.tiac.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA22465; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 18:17:46 -0500 (EST) Received: (from jimc@localhost) by zach1.tiac.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA19857; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 18:17:44 -0500 From: "James E. Carpenter" <jimc(a)zach1.tiac.net> Message-Id: <199812202317.SAA19857(a)zach1.tiac.net> Subject: Re: Ancient SunOS 1.1 tapes --- how to restore? To: rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 18:17:43 -0500 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199812161520.KAA28340(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> from "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" at Dec 16, 98 10:20:18 am Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > > I just took a quick look at my SunOS 3.2 tapes. The copyright file says: > > > > Copyright (c) 1986 by Sun Microsystems, Inc. > > > > Most of the files seem to be dated September 1986. Many others are dated > > July 1986. > > Speaking of old SunOS tapes..... I have a friend that dug out a pair > of SunOS 1.1 tapes that he has had for years. Alas, they are unreadable. > Is there any way to rewrite those tapes from anyones archival materials? > Sun has graciously allowed pre-sparc materials to be available on-line > in the German Sun3 archives. All they have seems to be SunOS-4.1.1, > though. I could donate SunOS 3.2, SunOS 4.0 (MC68010), and the 4.0.3 upgrade to the archive, assuming they want Sun2 material. I also have the SunOS 4.0.3 _upgrade_ for the 68020. All the tape files are tarred and gziped on a CDROM I burned not too long ago. > I am wondering if there is any interest in some of the early > Sun tapes? Well I'd sure love to see SunOS 1.x running on my 2/120. :-) > Are the 1.1 tapes basically a 4.2BSD port? Are they in > QIC-11 or QIC-24 format? It would be 4-track QIC-11. SunOS 3.2 also came on four QIC-11 tapes. But SunOS 4.x _probably_ only came on two QIC-24 tapes. (I say "probably" because my SunOS 4.x tapes are in 9-track QIC-11 format. I _assume_ this was done by somebody other than Sun so that it could be installed on a Sun2 with older ROMs.) - Jim -- James E. Carpenter E-Mail: jimc(a)zach1.tiac.net 6 Munroe Drive Plainville, MA 02762-1108 ICBM: 42 00' 15"N 71 20' 00"W PGP: 7ADE9D99 Fingerprint: 8D AF 63 EC D3 51 14 3E F1 59 8A 68 32 63 3F 8E Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA16037 for pups-liszt; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 06:08:18 +1100 (EST) >From Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com> Tue Dec 22 05:18:19 1998 Received: from mail.calweb.com (mail.calweb.com [208.131.56.12]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA16032 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 06:08:09 +1100 (EST) Received: by mail.calweb.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id LAA04125 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 11:08:02 -0800 (PST) X-SMTP: helo rgc from rickgc(a)calweb.com server @12.22.0.83 ip 12.22.0.83 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19981221111758.00905100(a)pop.calweb.com> X-Sender: rickgc(a)pop.calweb.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 11:18:19 -0800 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) From: Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com> Subject: Problems booting 2.11 on a 11/84 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Dear PUPS List, I have connected a Fujisu M2444 9 track to an Emulex TC13 that is in my 11/84. The following is what happens when I try to boot a BSD 2.11 tape that I made on my uVax3600/TU81+ (@6250 bpi): Enter device name and unit number then press the RETURN key: MS0 Trying MS0 (tape starts rolling) Starting ROM boot 140276 (tape stops) @ The boot programs that are available are quite extensive on this 11/84, it does tapes, disks, just about everything. The M2444 is checked out by doing the test (01 start, etc)and passes all the tests. If I reverse the cables on the M2444 the LED on the TC13 comes on and the M2444 will not do anything. Rick Copeland

26 years, 6 months

Re: Ancient SunOS Tapes for UHS archives?????

by Warren Toomey

In article by User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys: > I went to the archive site http://sun3arc.krupp.net > and it attributes the permission to archive materials to a > Mr. Knieriem of SUN Germany, Research and Education. > > One of the UHS folks might try to contact said Mr. Knieriem > to see if adding some of our other early stuff would be feasible. > The sun3arc site only has binaries, though. > I would assume the PUPS/UHS archives might work out some kind > of binary and source arrangement, perhaps? I've emailed the webmaster at the site which the above query. I've also added a link from the TUHS page to this site, so we don't lose the reference. Cheers, > Mebbie we has started somethin' 'ere, methinks....(:+}}..... > Bob Keys Also we also have people inside Sun too! Sounds hopeful. Thanks all, Warren

26 years, 6 months

Re: Unix History Diagram --- AOS quirks

by Michael Sokolov

"User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> wrote: > What specifically would one look for to exactly differentiate > a vanilla 4.3, from a Tahoe, from a Reno, from a 4.4, from a 4.4Lite, > on non-standard hardware? Telling between pre-Reno and post-Reno is trivial. If you see directories like /usr/ucb, /usr/doc, /usr/man, binaries in /etc and in /usr/lib, and so on, it's pre-Reno. If you see all docs, manpages, etc. moved into /usr/share, /usr/ucb gone, no binaries in /etc or in /usr/lib, strange critters appearing like /sbin, /usr/sbin, /usr/libexec, and /usr/libdata, it's post-Reno. Distinguishing between plain-4.3-based and Tahoe-based non-UCB systems can be tough, and, frankly, pointless. Aside from hardware issues, the noticeable differences between 4.3 and 4.3-Tahoe are the location of source-form manpages (/usr/man/man[1-8] on 4.3, /usr/src/man/man[1-8] on Tahoe), MX record support in Sendmail (present in Tahoe but not in 4.3), and the Olson timezone implementation, i.e., that big pile of zoneinfo files (again present in Tahoe but not in 4.3). The reason exercises like this are pointless is because when some brave vendor takes BSD sources and tries to make a vendor release from them, they usually have their own mind about what the system should look like, different from CSRG's. Vendors often take different pieces from different systems on a subjective basis. A vendor release can have the feature set of one system and the look and feel of another. For example, Ultrix V4.0 has the classical pre-Reno look and feel, but yet is POSIXized to about the same extent as Reno. Thus the blurb above about telling between pre-Reno and post-Reno systems refers to the look and feel of a system, not to its feature set. The plain 4.3 vs. Tahoe distinction doesn't really hold in vendor systems either. Ultrix V4.0 has MX record support in Sendmail, but its man mechanism is plain 4.3 vintage. Don't remember if there were zoneinfo files there or not. /var also has an interesting story. In the BSD line it appears in Reno, but it originates in SunOS and Ultrix, systems with pre-Reno look and feel on which a number of directories were moved from /usr to the newly-created /var. Thus on 4.3 or 4.3-Tahoe you have /usr/spool/mail, on SunOS and Ultrix you have /var/spool/mail, and on Reno and later you have /var/mail. Oh, I forgot to mention that the filesystem format changed slightly and disk label support was added between 4.3 and 4.3-Tahoe. Again this is certainly meaningless for vendor systems because they always tweak the filesystem format themselves and have their own disk label implementations that are not compatible with the one in Tahoe and later BSD releases. > The dating seems to be 1987 or 1988. Was Tahoe around then? The Tahoe tape shipped in the summer of 1988, but of course the work at CSRG was going all the time. > Salus suggests straight 4.3 was June of 1986, and Tahoe was June > of 1988 (Salus, p. 165). Correct. > but, a VAXStation 3500 just appeared > in surplus.... maybe the bidding force will be with me. Good luck. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus1 will run like a charm on it. If the force is really with you, you may even be able to run it with the graphical console, but if not, it's trivial to pull the QDSS boards out and run the machine as a standard VAX. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Cellular phone: 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id HAA20397 for pups-liszt; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 07:11:43 +1100 (EST) >From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Wed Dec 16 06:05:16 1998 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA20392 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 07:11:34 +1100 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA27002; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 15:05:16 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199812152005.PAA27002(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: Unix History Diagram --- AOS quirks In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.981215141724.4474C-100000(a)smithfield.transarc.com> from Pat Barron at "Dec 15, 98 02:34:00 pm" To: pat(a)transarc.com Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 15:05:16 -0500 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote: > No, the ROMP (the RT's CPU) is a RISC CPU. OK. > > Yes, there was an IBM'er that said he had some original tapes. I was > > hoping he would check with someone at IBM to see what the status was. > > That would probably be me. I'm still looking - I have a call in right now > to someone who might be able to help. Oh, now that might be interesting. Maybe the old AOS BSD will roll again! > > There was a group at Carnegie-Mellon that had some machines with AOS, > > but I don't have any pointers to anyone up there, for sure. > > Best bet would probably be someone at the ITC or the CS department, or the > Andrew Consortium. Don't really know many of those folks anymore, though, > and not sure if anyone from the right time period is still around. All I could find was one more recent fellow that had a ROMP board and a set of BSD tapes for it, but he had not apparently gotten it running. Also, most of the original folks seemed to be gone. Most everyone I have run into has wanted to run AIX on the RT hardware instead of BSD. I am beginning to feel like the odd man out if I shun AIX on the RT. > I have one in my living room.... Gee, that make 3 extant boards and 1 real live machine! Neato! Have you had yours up with a BSD? Anyone for a BSD rolling party? Sounds like a little interest, maybe? I wish Blue would donate that to the PUPS archives, yup, yup, yup. That would be a nice gesture, and ought to be worth some PR brownies for them. Technically, would that not fall under the Ancient Unix, umbrella, anyway? That would be a legalese mumbo jumbo to sort out, though, and not my forte. Bob Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id IAA20667 for pups-liszt; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:17:30 +1100 (EST) >From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Wed Dec 16 07:10:49 1998 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA20662 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:17:22 +1100 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA27141; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 16:10:50 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199812152110.QAA27141(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: Unix History Diagram --- AOS quirks In-Reply-To: <199812152005.BAA10743(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> from Michael Sokolov at "Dec 15, 98 08:04:56 pm" To: msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET (Michael Sokolov) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 16:10:49 -0500 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> wrote: > > What specifically would one look for to exactly differentiate > > a vanilla 4.3, from a Tahoe, from a Reno, from a 4.4, from a 4.4Lite, > > on non-standard hardware? > > Telling between pre-Reno and post-Reno is trivial. ..... Lotsa neat info for us lesser newbie types. My main reason for asking was to try to place the AOS historically. It is definitely pre-Reno, and the manpages are in user/man/manX as to source pages. I was thinking it had timezones, though. The compiler was still pcc, and a custom Hi-Tech C thing called hc. > The reason exercises like this are pointless is because when some brave > vendor takes BSD sources and tries to make a vendor release from them, they > usually have their own mind about what the system should look like, > different from CSRG's. Granted, but the AOS system felt very unmodified, subjectively. So, I was not thinking it was almost Reno, or somewhere close to that. Knowing anything of the detailed structure helps me to place it developmentally. > Oh, I forgot to mention that the filesystem format changed slightly and > disk label support was added between 4.3 and 4.3-Tahoe. Again this is > certainly meaningless for vendor systems because they always tweak the > filesystem format themselves and have their own disk label implementations > that are not compatible with the one in Tahoe and later BSD releases. OK, the AOS seemed to have a disklabel, but of a different format from later releases. fsck has a field day if an update to one of the later after-AOS builds is installed. What would one use to differentiate the Lite from earlier systems? The last build was in the 4xx range, and dated 1996, IFF I am remembering right. It is running gcc at the 2.5.8 level. Are there key file system dates or revision levels that would help to indicate how late it is? ...... > > but, a VAXStation 3500 just appeared > > in surplus.... maybe the bidding force will be with me. > > Good luck. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus1 will run like a charm on it. If the force > is really with you, you may even be able to run it with the graphical > console, but if not, it's trivial to pull the QDSS boards out and run the > machine as a standard VAX. It is so ugly, noone in their normal PCish minds locally should bid on it. So, maybe I will have a chance at it in a reasonable sort of way. The machine is just the main tower box, and nothing else. It does have a TK70 tape, but I was unable to open it up on the pallet and see what was inside. There were no other bits and pieces with it. I was thinking I could run it with a VT100ish terminal of some sort, as a bare-bones system in the basement. How would the front/back cover open up, so I could do a quick spot check and see what actually was inside? If it has been gutted, I would probably pass, but if it was mostly there, it might be worth looking at. > Sincerely, > Michael Sokolov Thanks! Bob Keys Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA20871 for pups-liszt; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:16:32 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Dec 16 08:17:01 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA20866 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:16:26 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA06715 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:17:01 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199812152217.JAA06715(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Unix History Diagram To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:17:01 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk All, Goodness, that was a lot of email :-) I spent the night playing with the Graphviz tools, and my first drawing of the UNIX family tree is now on the web page I mentioned yesterday http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Unix_History/ I've fixed the broken HTML so that Lynx will read the pages. I haven't had a chance to convert all the version/date information that was sent in, and I probably won't get to it before January. Mind you, if people convert it into the file format I'm using, and mail it to me, then it will be included immediately :-) Anyway, thanks for all the feedback, and I'll get to it eventually. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA20983 for pups-liszt; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:32:08 +1100 (EST) >From Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> Wed Dec 16 08:31:08 1998 Received: from harrier.Uznet.NET (harrier.ml.org [193.220.92.194]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA20978 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:31:55 +1100 (EST) Received: from dosdev (pm8-123.dial.qual.net [205.212.2.123]) by harrier.Uznet.NET (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id DAA10882 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 03:31:16 +0500 Message-Id: <199812152231.DAA10882(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> From: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> Date: 15 Dec 1998 22:31:08 GMT To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Unix History Diagram --- AOS quirks Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> wrote: > [...] the manpages are in user/man/manX > as to source pages. This is definitely plain 4.3 vintage, not Tahoe vintage. This does not necessarily mean that other parts of the system are straight 4.3, though, they could easily be Tahoe vintage. What version of Sendmail does it ship with? > I was thinking it had timezones, though. Well, every UNIX system has some kind of timezone system, the question is what kind. On plain 4.3 it just remembers "OK, I'm 8 hours behind Greenwich" or so. On Tahoe it has a pile of zoneinfo files trying to describe the timezone and daylight saving time rules for every city in the world. I think these files are in /etc/zoneinfo, or maybe /usr/lib/zoneinfo, something like that. > Granted, but the AOS system felt very unmodified, subjectively. So, > I was not thinking it was almost Reno, or somewhere close to that. Well, that's good. > Knowing anything of the detailed structure helps me to place it > developmentally. Then why don't you take its source and the sources for 4.3, 4.3-Tahoe, or whatever you suspect it is, and see for yourself? In my directory on minnie (Distributions/4bsd) you can find the full sources for 4.3 (both plain and Rev 2), but unfortunately not for Tahoe (Rick Copeland hasn't been able to read that part of the Tahoe tape due to media defects). However, the CSRG Archives CD-ROMs have the full sources for everything, including Tahoe. > OK, the AOS seemed to have a disklabel, but of a different format from > later releases. Is the command actually called disklabel, or is it called something like format or chpt? (This is how it's called under SunOS and Ultrix, respectively, and they are indeed incompatible.) > What would one use to differentiate the Lite from earlier systems? If you are trying to tell between 4.4BSD and 4.4BSD-Lite, don't bother. If you system boots, it can't be Lite. "Lite" means that there are no binaries, only sources, and the sources won't build because about one half of them is deleted. Now, it's true that there had been some changes to the source tree between the 4.4BSD and 4.4BSD-Lite releases. If you want to see if these changes have been incorporated into your vendor release, check the Sendmail version number. For 4.4BSD it's 8.1. For 4.4BSD-Lite it's 8.6.something aka 8.7 Beta Rev something. > It is running gcc at the 2.5.8 level. Since I generally don't do gcc, I don't know anything about its version numbers. However, just because it's gcc the system has to belong to Class 3. This is my own classification. Class 1 is True UNIX(R). Everything I develop under Quasijarus Project will also belong to Class 1. It includes everything from the original PDP-11 UNIX to 4.3BSD-Tahoe. Class 2 is 4.3BSD-Reno. In some respects it's still True UNIX (the compiler is pcc and the kernel is 90% pure), but in other respects it's fallen (the directory hierarchy is turned upside down and the evil spirit of POSIX starts to creep in). Class 3 is Net/2, 4.4BSD-*, and Free/Net/OpenBSD. These are 100% fallen (the evil spirit POSIX runs the sinful world, VAX support in the kernel permanently broken, the compiler is gcc). > The machine is just the main tower box, and nothing else. It does have > a TK70 tape [...] What else do you need? The disks are internal, and you do have a tape drive. In fact, not just "a" tape drive, but a TK70, one of the best. Unfortunately it can't write TK50 tapes, but it can read them, and its native format is 3 times denser than the TK50 one and much faster too. > I was thinking > I could run it with a VT100ish terminal of some sort [...] Sure! You say it's badged as a VAXstation, so you'll probably need to pull two or three boards out to make it use the serial console. > [...] as a bare-bones system [...] What do you mean "bare-bones"? It's a VAX! What can be more powerful? It has a KA650 CPU, which is not bad at all (2.8 VUPs), and you can upgrade it to a KA655 (3.8 VUPs) or KA660 (5 VUPs) with a single board swap (the memory is the same for all). KA650/655 is already supported by 4.3BSD-Reno and Ultrix, and will be supported by 4.3BSD-Quasijarus1 as soon as I release it. KA660 is not supported yet, but it will only take a dozen lines or so to add this support. > How would the front/back cover open up, so > I could do a quick spot check and see what actually was inside? There is nothing interesting in the back. The front door opens trivially, just push the handle and swing the door open. You'll a 12-slot backplane with a cover over each slot. The covers are supposed to have labels on them. Reading them from right to left, you should see the CPU (KA650-BA), memory (some variant of MS650), Ethernet (DELQA-SA), a disk controller (probably KDA50 or KFQSA), and the TK70 controller (TQK70). If all these pieces are there, you are all set! Of course if there is more stuff there you are even more lucky. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Cellular phone: 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA21142 for pups-liszt; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:12:56 +1100 (EST) >From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Wed Dec 16 09:06:19 1998 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA21137 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:12:47 +1100 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA27350; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:06:19 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199812152306.SAA27350(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: VAXen funzies.... (gotta start somewhere). In-Reply-To: <199812152231.DAA10882(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> from Michael Sokolov at "Dec 15, 98 10:31:08 pm" To: msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET (Michael Sokolov) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:06:19 -0500 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > > How would the front/back cover open up, so > > I could do a quick spot check and see what actually was inside? > > There is nothing interesting in the back. The front door opens > trivially, just push the handle and swing the door open. You'll a 12-slot > backplane with a cover over each slot. The covers are supposed to have > labels on them. Reading them from right to left, you should see the CPU > (KA650-BA), memory (some variant of MS650), Ethernet (DELQA-SA), a disk > controller (probably KDA50 or KFQSA), and the TK70 controller (TQK70). If > all these pieces are there, you are all set! Of course if there is more > stuff there you are even more lucky. This one does not have a handle that I can find. There is a sliding door over the tape drive, and then a plastic key sticks out the front of the panel kind of like the keylock on a pc. If that key is the handle, then, I will open it up tomorrow when I visit surplus again to pick up a postscript printer, and see what is there. If that key is not the handle, then it was not obvious what was on that side of the box that should be the ``handle'' to open it up. Bob Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA21280 for pups-liszt; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:54:57 +1100 (EST) >From Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> Wed Dec 16 09:54:10 1998 Received: from harrier.Uznet.NET (harrier.ml.org [193.220.92.194]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA21274 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:54:42 +1100 (EST) Received: from dosdev (pm6-22.dial.qual.net [205.212.2.22]) by harrier.Uznet.NET (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id EAA10978 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 04:54:21 +0500 Message-Id: <199812152354.EAA10978(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> From: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> Date: 15 Dec 1998 23:54:10 GMT To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: VAXen funzies.... (gotta start somewhere). Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> wrote: > There is a sliding > door over the tape drive, and then a plastic key sticks out the front > of the panel kind of like the keylock on a pc. The sliding window (yes, the DEC docs call it a window and not a door) and the key are there to control access to the tape drive, to the disk drive control buttons, to the HALT button, to the power switch, and to the handle that opens the front door (the one you are looking for). The key has 3 positions: top. middle, and bottom. When the key is in the top position, the window cannot be lowered at all, and the machine is secure. When the key is in the middle position, the window can be lowered partially, and you can access the tape drive, the disk drive control buttons, and the halt button, but not the power switch or the front door handle. When the key is in the bottom position, the window can be lowered completely and you can access everything. > If that key is the > handle, then, I will open it up tomorrow when I visit surplus again > to pick up a postscript printer, and see what is there. If that key > is not the handle, then it was not obvious what was on that side of > the box that should be the ``handle'' to open it up. Turn the key to the bottom position. Lower the window all the way down. Near the bottom of the opening you'll see the power switch and the handle I'm talking about. This handle moves horizontally (left and right). I don't have one of those boxes in front of me and I don't remember whether you need to push it to the left or to the right, but I'm sure you can figure it out experimentally. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Cellular phone: 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA22380 for pups-liszt; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:26:03 +1100 (EST) >From "James E. Carpenter" <jimc(a)zach1.tiac.net> Wed Dec 16 15:25:32 1998 Received: from mail-out-0.tiac.net (mail-out-0.tiac.net [199.0.65.247]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA22375 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:25:53 +1100 (EST) Received: from mail-out-2.tiac.net (mail-out-2.tiac.net [199.0.65.13]) by mail-out-0.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA24172; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 00:25:41 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jimc(a)zach1.tiac.net) Received: from zach1.tiac.net (zach1.tiac.net [206.119.129.250]) by mail-out-2.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA26527; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:26:35 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jimc(a)zach1.tiac.net) Received: (from jimc@localhost) by zach1.tiac.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA19173; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 00:25:34 -0500 From: "James E. Carpenter" <jimc(a)zach1.tiac.net> Message-Id: <199812160525.AAA19173(a)zach1.tiac.net> Subject: Re: Unix History Diagram To: kahn(a)tholian.net (Joey KAHN) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 00:25:32 -0500 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <36766225.6955995B(a)tholian.net> from "Joey KAHN" at Dec 15, 98 08:20:37 am Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > All I recall about pre 4.0 was that we were using SunOS 3.5 in '88. I'd > like to think 3.2 came out in '85 or '86--but memory isn't what it used > to be... I just took a quick look at my SunOS 3.2 tapes. The copyright file says: Copyright (c) 1986 by Sun Microsystems, Inc. Most of the files seem to be dated September 1986. Many others are dated July 1986. - Jim -- James E. Carpenter E-Mail: jimc(a)zach1.tiac.net 6 Munroe Drive Plainville, MA 02762-1108 ICBM: 42 00' 15"N 71 20' 00"W PGP: 7ADE9D99 Fingerprint: 8D AF 63 EC D3 51 14 3E F1 59 8A 68 32 63 3F 8E Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id CAA24140 for pups-liszt; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 02:28:03 +1100 (EST) >From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Thu Dec 17 01:20:18 1998 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA24134 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 02:27:53 +1100 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA28340; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:20:18 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199812161520.KAA28340(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: Ancient SunOS 1.1 tapes --- how to restore? In-Reply-To: <199812160525.AAA19173(a)zach1.tiac.net> from "James E. Carpenter" at "Dec 16, 98 00:25:32 am" To: jimc(a)zach1.tiac.net (James E. Carpenter) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:20:18 -0500 (EST) Cc: kahn(a)tholian.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > > All I recall about pre 4.0 was that we were using SunOS 3.5 in '88. I'd > > like to think 3.2 came out in '85 or '86--but memory isn't what it used > > to be... > > I just took a quick look at my SunOS 3.2 tapes. The copyright file says: > > Copyright (c) 1986 by Sun Microsystems, Inc. > > Most of the files seem to be dated September 1986. Many others are dated > July 1986. Speaking of old SunOS tapes..... I have a friend that dug out a pair of SunOS 1.1 tapes that he has had for years. Alas, they are unreadable. Is there any way to rewrite those tapes from anyones archival materials? Sun has graciously allowed pre-sparc materials to be available on-line in the German Sun3 archives. All they have seems to be SunOS-4.1.1, though. I am wondering if there is any interest in some of the early Sun tapes? Are the 1.1 tapes basically a 4.2BSD port? Are they in QIC-11 or QIC-24 format? Thanks Bob Keys Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id CAA24206 for pups-liszt; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 02:35:36 +1100 (EST) >From Eric Fischer <eric(a)fudge.uchicago.edu> Thu Dec 17 01:33:06 1998 Received: from fudge.uchicago.edu (fudge.uchicago.edu [128.135.136.68]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA24201 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 02:35:27 +1100 (EST) Received: (from eric@localhost) by fudge.uchicago.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA22901; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:33:06 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:33:06 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199812161533.JAA22901(a)fudge.uchicago.edu> From: Eric Fischer <eric(a)fudge.uchicago.edu> To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Unix History Diagram In-Reply-To: <199812142344.KAA05594(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> References: <199812142344.KAA05594(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Organization: The University of Chicago Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > I was thinking of trying to update my `History of UNIX' diagram at > http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/TUHS/Images/unixtimeline.gif, to bring it up > to date and make it more accurate. Here are a few dates I was able to find, in the format from your web page: sysV Name: System V Date: 1983-01 Reference: System V Release Description, title page sysVr2 Name: System V Release 2 Date: 1984-04 Reference: System V manual for 3B2, title page sunos2 Name: SunOS 2.0 Date: 1985-05-15 Reference: SunOS 2.0 manual, title page sunos3 Name: SunOS 3.0 Date: 1986-02-17 Reference: SunOS 3.0 manual, title page pwb1.0 Name: PWB/UNIX 1.0 Date: 1977-07-1 Reference: /usr/news/pibs in the archived PWB distribution # prerelease test versions: 1977-06-6, 1977-06-13 eric Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id FAA24733 for pups-liszt; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 05:01:55 +1100 (EST) >From Billy Stivers <alyosha(a)vrytekai.Corp.Sun.COM> Thu Dec 17 03:59:44 1998 Received: from mercury.Sun.COM (mercury.Sun.COM [192.9.25.1]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id FAA24728 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 05:01:45 +1100 (EST) Received: from Corp.Sun.COM ([129.145.35.78]) by mercury.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/mail.byaddr) with SMTP id KAA15352; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:00:28 -0800 Received: from vrytekai.Corp.Sun.COM by Corp.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-5.3) id KAA18213; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:00:27 -0800 Received: from vrytekai (vrytekai [129.145.71.165]) by vrytekai.Corp.Sun.COM (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA02912; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:59:44 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199812161759.JAA02912(a)vrytekai.Corp.Sun.COM> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:59:44 -0800 (PST) From: Billy Stivers <alyosha(a)vrytekai.Corp.Sun.COM> Reply-To: Billy Stivers <alyosha(a)vrytekai.Corp.Sun.COM> Subject: Re: Ancient SunOS 1.1 tapes --- how to restore? To: jimc(a)zach1.tiac.net, rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu Cc: kahn(a)tholian.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: jVHzocTqqQz3Joe9NWAsQQ== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 CDE Version 1.3 SunOS 5.7 sun4u sparc Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hey, Robert- do you know if anybody from Sun Legal ever officially gave the okay for that, because, as I was telling Warren, I have most SunOSes from the very first V7 variant that they shipped, through the present day, and it'd be a fairly simple matter to spool all of the sun1, sun2, and sun3 ones that are readable (should be a lot, they've been stored in carefully climate-controlled and proper containers) to disk, and set the archives up with them. There are some really neat innovations in older SunOS, and it'd be neat to compare them, and try to track the tech-crossfeeding with the 4BSD trees, and early SunOSes. There's a lot of actual hands-on mucking around by Bill Joy in some of the earliest releases. --Bill >From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> >Subject: Re: Ancient SunOS 1.1 tapes --- how to restore? >To: jimc(a)zach1.tiac.net (James E. Carpenter) >Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:20:18 -0500 (EST) >Cc: kahn(a)tholian.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >> > All I recall about pre 4.0 was that we were using SunOS 3.5 in '88. I'd >> > like to think 3.2 came out in '85 or '86--but memory isn't what it used >> > to be... >> >> I just took a quick look at my SunOS 3.2 tapes. The copyright file says: >> >> Copyright (c) 1986 by Sun Microsystems, Inc. >> >> Most of the files seem to be dated September 1986. Many others are dated >> July 1986. > >Speaking of old SunOS tapes..... I have a friend that dug out a pair >of SunOS 1.1 tapes that he has had for years. Alas, they are unreadable. >Is there any way to rewrite those tapes from anyones archival materials? >Sun has graciously allowed pre-sparc materials to be available on-line >in the German Sun3 archives. All they have seems to be SunOS-4.1.1, >though. I am wondering if there is any interest in some of the early >Sun tapes? Are the 1.1 tapes basically a 4.2BSD port? Are they in >QIC-11 or QIC-24 format? > >Thanks > >Bob Keys > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- A "No" uttered from deepest conviction is better and greater than a "Yes" merely uttered to please, or what is worse, to avoid trouble. -- Mahatma Gandhi Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id FAA24883 for pups-liszt; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 05:36:19 +1100 (EST) >From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Thu Dec 17 04:29:27 1998 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA24878 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 05:36:10 +1100 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA28899; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:29:28 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199812161829.NAA28899(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: Ancient SunOS 1.1 tapes --- how to restore? In-Reply-To: <199812161759.JAA02912(a)vrytekai.Corp.Sun.COM> from Billy Stivers at "Dec 16, 98 09:59:44 am" To: alyosha(a)vrytekai.Corp.Sun.COM Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:29:27 -0500 (EST) Cc: jimc(a)zach1.tiac.net, kahn(a)tholian.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > Hey, Robert- > > do you know if anybody from Sun Legal ever officially gave the okay > for that, because, as I was telling Warren, I have most SunOSes from > the very first V7 variant that they shipped, through the present day, > and it'd be a fairly simple matter to spool all of the sun1, sun2, and sun3 > ones that are readable (should be a lot, they've been stored in carefully > climate-controlled and proper containers) to disk, and set the archives up > with them. There are some really neat innovations in older SunOS, and it'd > be neat to compare them, and try to track the tech-crossfeeding with the > 4BSD trees, and early SunOSes. There's a lot of actual hands-on mucking > around by Bill Joy in some of the earliest releases. > > --Bill > > >Speaking of old SunOS tapes..... I have a friend that dug out a pair > >of SunOS 1.1 tapes that he has had for years. Alas, they are unreadable. > >Is there any way to rewrite those tapes from anyones archival materials? > >Sun has graciously allowed pre-sparc materials to be available on-line > >in the German Sun3 archives. All they have seems to be SunOS-4.1.1, > >though. I am wondering if there is any interest in some of the early > >Sun tapes? Are the 1.1 tapes basically a 4.2BSD port? Are they in > >QIC-11 or QIC-24 format? I think there is great potential in all of this. AS I UNDERSTAND IT..... Sun apparently gave the OK to a German archive site to put the the stuff on-line. That is, in fact, where I picked up my sun3 tapes to resurrect my old box. It only seems be be pre-sparc related 68000 based stuff. The details were given on the web site, and were discussed on one of the Sun newsfeeds. Try the http://doener.unix-ag.uni-kl.de/ site, and it is explained there. The guy actually got Sun to OK it, as far as I know, but I have no idea of the exact legalese involved, but memory tells me it was Sun Germany that gave the go-ahead on it. The site may have moved to http://sun3arc.krupp.net, since I was thinking a move was in progress a couple of months back. I think I got to it via a link from www.sunhelp.com or www.sunfreeware.com. The idea occurred to me that IFF Sun has gone that far, we should check into putting the older releases there, too, as they may still exist. Also, perhaps, as they would fit under the Ancient Unix umbrella, I would think, then PUPS/UHS should likewise take an interest in such potential. I would be of the opinion that any of the pre-SysIII/SysV related stuff, in addition to the purist ATT/Berkeley releases ought to be put back for archival use, too, as it should be covered under the Ancient Unix umbrella. If I am too far off on that, let me know. I am but a very minor newbie bit player in all of this. Bob Keys Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id FAA24923 for pups-liszt; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 05:50:29 +1100 (EST) >From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Thu Dec 17 04:43:43 1998 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA24918 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 05:50:21 +1100 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA28957; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:43:44 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199812161843.NAA28957(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: Ancient SunOS Tapes for UHS archives????? In-Reply-To: <199812161759.JAA02912(a)vrytekai.Corp.Sun.COM> from Billy Stivers at "Dec 16, 98 09:59:44 am" To: alyosha(a)vrytekai.Corp.Sun.COM Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:43:43 -0500 (EST) Cc: jimc(a)zach1.tiac.net, kahn(a)tholian.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > Hey, Robert- > > do you know if anybody from Sun Legal ever officially gave the okay > for that, because, as I was telling Warren, I have most SunOSes from > the very first V7 variant that they shipped, through the present day, > and it'd be a fairly simple matter to spool all of the sun1, sun2, and sun3 > ones that are readable (should be a lot, they've been stored in carefully > climate-controlled and proper containers) to disk, and set the archives up > with them. There are some really neat innovations in older SunOS, and it'd > be neat to compare them, and try to track the tech-crossfeeding with the > 4BSD trees, and early SunOSes. There's a lot of actual hands-on mucking > around by Bill Joy in some of the earliest releases. > > --Bill It would be fun to see some of Bill Joy's hacks....(:+}}..... I went to the archive site http://sun3arc.krupp.net and it attributes the permission to archive materials to a Mr. Knieriem of SUN Germany, Research and Education. One of the UHS folks might try to contact said Mr. Knieriem to see if adding some of our other early stuff would be feasible. The sun3arc site only has binaries, though. I would assume the PUPS/UHS archives might work out some kind of binary and source arrangement, perhaps? Someone other than the tailwagging newbie here, should persue this and see where it goes? Mebbie we has started somethin' 'ere, methinks....(:+}}..... Bob Keys Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA25126 for pups-liszt; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 06:45:26 +1100 (EST) >From "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net> Thu Dec 17 05:47:37 1998 Received: from coffee.corliss.net (erin(a)[12.7.121.245]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA25121 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 06:45:17 +1100 (EST) Received: from localhost (erin@localhost) by coffee.corliss.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA24022 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:47:39 -0800 Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:47:37 -0800 (PST) From: "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net> Reply-To: "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: PDP-11/73 Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.981216113259.23904B-100000(a)coffee.corliss.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk So get this... I downloaded the machine emulators package and the binaries for Unix version 7 from the PUPS ftp site, hoping that I could use it to create a bootable disk image to put on my PDP-11/73 that would run getty on one of the serial ports besides the console... I compiled the emulators on a Slackware Linux 2.0.30 machine, and they seemed to compile OK. From the emulator I followed the instructions for booting Unix 7. I had the following error every time I tried booting: Trap stack push abort, PC: 004567 (MOV R3,(SP)) Anybody have a clue why this is happening?

26 years, 6 months

nondisclosure clause in SCO license

by Eric Fischer

Does anyone know how serious SCO is about enforcing the nondisclosure clause from the Ancient Unix license? I'm referring to this one: 8.4 (a) LICENSEE agrees that it shall hold all parts of the SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS subject to this Agreement in confidence for SCO. LICENSEE further agrees that should it make such disclosure of any or all of such SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS (including methods or concepts utilized therein) to anyone to whom such disclosure is necessary to the use for which rights are granted hereunder, LICENSEE shall appropriately notify each such person to whom any such disclosure is made that such disclosure is made in confidence and shall be kept in confidence and have each such person sign a confidentiality agreement containing restrictions on disclosure substantially similar to those set forth herein. So if I mention to someone that (for instance) the Sixth Edition version of ed didn't have the "j" command but it was in PWB and the Seventh Edition, and I know this from reading the source code, are the SCO police going to come after me? eric Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA15475 for pups-liszt; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:23:08 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Dec 15 08:23:22 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA15470 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:23:02 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA04880; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:23:22 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199812142223.JAA04880(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: nondisclosure clause in SCO license To: eric(a)fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:23:22 +1100 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199812142217.QAA03614(a)fudge.uchicago.edu> from Eric Fischer at "Dec 14, 98 04:17:04 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Eric Fischer: > Does anyone know how serious SCO is about enforcing the nondisclosure > clause from the Ancient Unix license? I'm referring to this one: > > 8.4 (a) LICENSEE agrees that it shall hold all parts of the > SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS subject to this Agreement in confidence for > SCO. LICENSEE further agrees that should it make such disclosure > of any or all of such SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS (including methods or > concepts utilized therein) to anyone to whom such disclosure is > necessary to the use for which rights are granted hereunder, > LICENSEE shall appropriately notify each such person to whom any > such disclosure is made that such disclosure is made in > confidence and shall be kept in confidence and have each such > person sign a confidentiality agreement containing restrictions > on disclosure substantially similar to those set forth herein. > > So if I mention to someone that (for instance) the Sixth Edition > version of ed didn't have the "j" command but it was in PWB and the > Seventh Edition, and I know this from reading the source code, are the > SCO police going to come after me? > > eric I hope not Eric. I'll ask SCO for their impressions, and will pass them back on to the mailing list. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA15495 for pups-liszt; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:28:32 +1100 (EST) >From "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net> Tue Dec 15 08:31:14 1998 Received: from coffee.corliss.net (erin(a)[12.7.121.245]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA15490 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:28:24 +1100 (EST) Received: from localhost (erin@localhost) by coffee.corliss.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA00117 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:31:14 -0800 Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:31:14 -0800 (PST) From: "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: PDP-11/73 problems Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.981214140751.32409C-100000(a)coffee.corliss.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk I recently bought a PDP-11/73. It has one RD-52A MFM hard drive that boots up to RSTS, eight serial ports (besides the console), and what looks like a SCSI connector on the back (labeled TK25, so I assume this is the tape drive connector). I have connected it to my PC and I am able to either boot it up from the hard drive or start up into the ROM monitor. Unfortunately, at this point I can't continue because the PDP won't receive anything through the console serial port. Does anybody know if there are any quirks about the serial port on this machine that would cause this (if, for instance, the PDP-11 required some sort of handshaking that my PC doesn't do). Also, there is a block of dip switches on the CPU card that appear to affect booting and serial port stuff. Does anyone know where there is a list of what these switches control? Furthermore.... Between the cryptically labeled switch that chooses monitor or boot mode and the knob that changes the baud rate is a knob with three settings labeled with an arrow, a talking head, and an uppercase T with an arrow orbiting it. What does this knob do? Finally, assuming that the UART on the CPU board is fried and the entire CPU board needs to be replaced before it will work again, what are the chances I could get someone who has the Unix source code to compile me a kernel that uses one of the other serial ports as the console? Thanks in advance for all of the help that I know you people will send me. 8^) -- Erin Corliss Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA15515 for pups-liszt; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:30:03 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Dec 15 08:30:20 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA15504 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:29:56 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA04928; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:30:20 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199812142230.JAA04928(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: PDP-11/73 problems To: erin(a)coffee.corliss.net (Erin W. Corliss) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:30:20 +1100 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.981214140751.32409C-100000(a)coffee.corliss.net> from "Erin W. Corliss" at "Dec 14, 98 02:31:14 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Erin W. Corliss: > Finally, assuming that the UART on the CPU board is fried and the entire > CPU board needs to be replaced before it will work again, what are the > chances I could get someone who has the Unix source code to compile me a > kernel that uses one of the other serial ports as the console? > -- Erin Corliss What version of UNIX are you running on it? Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA15610 for pups-liszt; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:00:16 +1100 (EST) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Tue Dec 15 08:59:53 1998 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (trailing-edge.wdn.com [198.232.144.27]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA15605 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.adfa.edu.AU>; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:00:03 +1100 (EST) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.adfa.edu.AU; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 17:59:53 -0500 Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 17:59:53 -0500 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Message-Id: <981214175953.2f000656(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: PDP-11/73 problems Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >I have connected it to my PC and I am able to either boot it up from the >hard drive or start up into the ROM monitor. Unfortunately, at this point >I can't continue because the PDP won't receive anything through the >console serial port. Am I correct in assuming that up until RSTS/E is started, the console serial port seems to work fine? i.e. you can talk to ODT? >Does anybody know if there are any quirks about the serial port on this >machine that would cause this (if, for instance, the PDP-11 required some >sort of handshaking that my PC doesn't do). RSTS/E might be picky about parity bits in some cases. (Heaven knows that it's incredibly picky about some other things!) On the other hand, your PC might not be seeing the RTS/CTS (I forget which one it'll actually be looking for) and this is the reason your keystrokes never go out. Or it might not be seeing DSR and refusing to send keystrokes because of this. Have you configured your comm software for XON/XOFF and *not* hardware flow control? > Also, there is a block of dip >switches on the CPU card that appear to affect booting and serial port >stuff. Does anyone know where there is a list of what these switches >control? >From a list that John Wilson supplied to me once: dip switch near handle 1 on disables console terminal (factory use only) 2-4 off off off boot auto according to the dialog mode settings off off on boot dev. # 1 in dialog mode settings. off on off " " 2 " off on on " " 3 " on off off " " 4 " on off on " " 5 " on on off " " 6 " on on on if sw. 1 off, power up into ODT if sw. 1 on , run self-test disg. in a cont loop 5 off enters dialog mode on power up 6-8 on on on 38400 baud rate console. on on off 19200 on off on 9600 on off off 4800 off on on 2400 off on off 1200 off off on 600 off off off 300 All of these s/b turned OFF if you have the console patch panel rotary switch connected to the cpu. rotary switch positions definitions. switch pos.s v v baud rate auto boot dialog mode 38400 0 8 19200 1 9 9600 2 10 4800 3 11 2400 4 12 1200 5 13 600 6 14 300 7 15 > Furthermore.... Between the cryptically labeled switch that >chooses monitor or boot mode and the knob that changes the baud rate is a >knob with three settings labeled with an arrow, a talking head, and an >uppercase T with an arrow orbiting it. What does this knob do? It selects power-on mode. I think arrow means to boot straight from the default device, talking head means to go to interactive console dialog, and the T with the circle around it means infinite test loop. >Finally, assuming that the UART on the CPU board is fried and the entire >CPU board needs to be replaced before it will work again, what are the >chances I could get someone who has the Unix source code to compile me a >kernel that uses one of the other serial ports as the console? I'm sure it can be done, but I don't know of any that are easily persuaded to do this! It'd be far easier to disable your CPU board's console port and drop in a separate DLV11-type interface. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA15820 for pups-liszt; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:44:03 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Dec 15 09:44:25 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA15815 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:43:55 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA05594 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:44:25 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199812142344.KAA05594(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Unix History Diagram To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:44:25 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk All, I was thinking of trying to update my `History of UNIX' diagram at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/TUHS/Images/unixtimeline.gif, to bring it up to date and make it more accurate. The current status of my update is at: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Unix_History/ I'm missing details on many of the commercial versions of UNIX: + SunOS/Solaris + SysVR4.x + Ultrix + Xenix + Unixware :-) + BSDI stuff + lots more If anybody can supply release dates and relationships for systems that I don't have yet, could you email them to me with a reference where possible. This is going to be a back-burner project, I'll do a bit here and there, but hopefully by sometime next year we'll have a large wall-sized family tree for UNIX. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA16605 for pups-liszt; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:23:51 +1100 (EST) >From Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> Tue Dec 15 13:23:10 1998 Received: from harrier.Uznet.NET (harrier.ml.org [193.220.92.194]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA16600 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:23:39 +1100 (EST) Received: from dosdev (pm9-155.dial.qual.net [205.212.2.155]) by harrier.Uznet.NET (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA09225 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 08:23:16 +0500 Message-Id: <199812150323.IAA09225(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> From: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> Date: 15 Dec 1998 03:23:10 GMT To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Unix History Diagram Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> wrote: > The current status of my update is at: > > http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Unix_History/ I have looked at it. Note that the data files are not hyperlinked. I don't think this is intentional, is it? Being the TUHS 4BSD Coordinator :-), I feel obligated to do some work on the 4bsd data file. Quoting: > 3bsd > Name: 3BSD > Date: 1980-03 > Reference: last-mod timestamps in Distributions/ucb/3bsd.tar > Successor to 32V > Code taken from 2bsd > # virtual memory, page replacement, > # demand paging > > 4bsd > Name: 4BSD > Date: 1980-10 > Reference: Quarter Century of UNIX by Peter Salus, pg 164 > Successor to 3bsd Are you sure that virtual memory appears first in 3BSD? I have always thought that it's a 4BSD milestone. Page replacement and demand paging probably go with it. > 4.2bsd > Name: 4.2BSD > Date: 1983-09 > Reference: Quarter Century of UNIX by Peter Salus, pg 164 > Successor to 4.1cbsd I would add the following comment: > # Landmark filesystem change. > # VAX hardware support extended to 11/730. > # Now runs on 11/780, 11/750, 11/730. Further: > 4.3bsd > Name: 4.3BSD > Date: 1986-06 > Reference: Quarter Century of UNIX by Peter Salus, pg 165 > Successor to 4.2bsd I would add: > Code taken from DEC Ultrix with DEC's blessing > # DNS added to the standard libc > # (no MX records in Sendmail, though). > # Added DEC's VAX 8600 and TMSCP support code > # with DEC's blessing. > # Added kernel-only support for MicroVAX II > # (KA630). Without DEC's help! > # It's unusable, though. Sorry, I don't know the Ultrix version (don't even know if it's a release and not some DEC internal code), but it's obviously among the very first. Further: > 4.3tahoe > Name: 4.3BSD Tahoe > Date: 1988-06 > Reference: Quarter Century of UNIX by Peter Salus, pg 165 > Successor to 4.3bsd I would add: > Code taken from CCI's 4.2BSD-based vendor release > # tahoe architecture support added. > # VAX hardware support enhancements: > # MicroVAX II (KA630) support made actually > # usable and extended to support QVSS and > # QDSS graphics. > # VAX 8200 support added by Chris Torek. > # New drivers for disk MSCP (U/Q and BI). > # No distribution tapes for VAX ever shipped, > # though. > # MX record support in Sendmail! Further: > 4.3reno > Name: 4.3BSD Reno > Date: 1990-06 > Reference: Quarter Century of UNIX by Peter Salus, pg 165 > Successor to 4.3tahoe I would add: > Influenced by Sun and DEC vendor systems (NFS and /var) > # experimental hp300 architecture support added. > # MicroVAX support extended to KA650 (MicroVAX III) > # everywhere except the tmscp bootblock. Back to Warren: > I'm missing details on many of the commercial versions of UNIX: > > + SunOS/Solaris > [...] > + Ultrix I know that SunOS and Ultrix played key roles in the history of BSD (huge bidirectional exchange of code and ideas between CSRG, Sun, and DEC), but I don't know anything about versions and such. > + BSDI stuff Just like 386BSD, FreeBSD, and NetBSD, it's based on Net/2, 4.4BSD-Lite, and 4.4BSD-Lite2. That's all I know. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Cellular phone: 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA17068 for pups-liszt; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 17:11:10 +1100 (EST) >From Kirk McKusick <mckusick(a)mckusick.com> Tue Dec 15 15:10:48 1998 Received: from flamingo.McKusick.COM (root(a)flamingo.mckusick.com [209.31.233.178]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA17063 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 17:11:01 +1100 (EST) Received: from flamingo.McKusick.COM (mckusick@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by flamingo.McKusick.COM (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA06982; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 21:10:49 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199812150510.VAA06982(a)flamingo.McKusick.COM> To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> Subject: Re: Unix History Diagram cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au In-reply-to: Your message of "15 Dec 1998 03:23:10 GMT." <199812150323.IAA09225(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 21:10:48 -0800 From: Kirk McKusick <mckusick(a)mckusick.com> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk From: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> Date: 15 Dec 1998 03:23:10 GMT To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Unix History Diagram Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au ... Are you sure that virtual memory appears first in 3BSD? I have always thought that it's a 4BSD milestone. Page replacement and demand paging probably go with it. The first virtual memory release was 3BSD. It's performance was significantly improved in 4BSD. Kirk Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id SAA17294 for pups-liszt; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:36:33 +1100 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Dec 15 17:36:15 1998 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA17289 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:36:24 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA29268; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:06:14 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id SAA16328; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:06:15 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19981215180615.H15815(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:06:15 +1030 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Unix History Diagram References: <199812142344.KAA05594(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199812142344.KAA05594(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Tue, Dec 15, 1998 at 10:44:25AM +1100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 X-Mutt-References: <199812142344.KAA05594(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tuesday, 15 December 1998 at 10:44:25 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote: > All, > > I was thinking of trying to update my `History of UNIX' diagram at > http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/TUHS/Images/unixtimeline.gif, to bring it up > to date and make it more accurate. The current status of my update is at: > > http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Unix_History/ > > I'm missing details on many of the commercial versions of UNIX: > >> SunOS/Solaris >> SysVR4.x >> Ultrix >> Xenix >> Unixware :-) >> BSDI stuff >> lots more > > If anybody can supply release dates and relationships for systems that I > don't have yet, could you email them to me with a reference where possible. OK, I've dragged out some old tapes which may be of some interest: Tandem NonStop UX for Tandem LXN (68020), effectively System V.2, 10 April 1987. Tandem NonStop-UX B00 for Tandem LXN (68020), effectively System V.3.0, dated 22 August 1989. Tandem NonStop-UX B10 for Tandem LXN (68020), effectively System V.3.1, dated 20 September 1989. Consensys UNIX System V.4.2.1.0, in PaCkAgE DaTaStReAm mode (yup, that's what it says). I'm not sure how reliable this is, but the first package has the PSTAMP destiny921114141358, which presumably can be interpreted as a date; certainly it's plausible. BSD BSD/386, version 0.3.2. The tar archive has the date Feb 28 09:18 1992 on the first few files; presumably this is US MST. Univel Unixware 1.0, also this funny PaCkAgE DaTaStReAm. This one has a PSTAMP=SVR4.2 11/02/92. I'd assume that they really meant 2 November 1992. I've got a number of old CDs which I haven't looked at yet. I'd guess that I have most FreeBSD releases, and we can find the rest. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id AAA18317 for pups-liszt; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 00:22:36 +1100 (EST) >From Joey KAHN <kahn(a)tholian.net> Tue Dec 15 23:20:37 1998 Received: from illustrious (illustrious.concentric.net [207.155.252.7]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA18312 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 00:22:26 +1100 (EST) Received: from tholian.net ([207.155.186.37]) by illustrious (8.9.1/) id IAA20278; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 08:22:15 -0500 (EST) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay] Message-ID: <36766225.6955995B(a)tholian.net> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 08:20:37 -0500 From: Joey KAHN <kahn(a)tholian.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au CC: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Unix History Diagram References: <199812142344.KAA05594(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <19981215180615.H15815(a)freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Found this on a sun web page: SunOS Solaris FCS Comments OpenWindows ----------- ------- ------- --------------------------- ----------- 3.2 3.3 3.4 3.5 4.0 4.0.2 Sept 89 (386i Roadrunner) 4.0.3 May 89 (Sun2, Sun3/3x, Sun4) 4.0.3c June 89 (SPARC Sun4c only) 4.0.3 PSR_A July 89 (SPARC 470/490 only) 4.1 Mar 90 (3/3x/4/4c except 470/490) 4.1 PSR_A May 90 (SPARC only for 390/490) 4.1.1 1.0 Nov 90 (All Sun3/4's) OW2.0/3.0 4.1.1B Feb 91 (SPARC only) OW2.0/3.0 4.1.1.1 July 91 (CTE patches for Sun3/3x) 4.1.1_U1 Nov 91 (Last Sun3/3x release) 4.1.2 1.0.1 Dec 91 (SPARC + Sun4m/600MP Ross) OW2.0/3.0 4.1.3 1.1A Aug 92 (All SPARC+MP,Viking S10) OW3.0 4.1.3c 1.1C Nov 93 (LX and Classic only) OW3.0 4.1.3_U1 1.1.1 Dec 93 (SPARC,LX,Classic/no-sun4d) OW3.0 4.1.3_U1b 1.1.1B Feb 94 (SPARC3.5/S10,4mm & all 1.1s) OW3.0 4.1.4 1.1.2 Sep 94 (SPARC4m [Colorado CPUs]+new WS) 5.0 2.0 July 92 (Desktop Sun4c only) OW3.0 5.1 2.1 Dec 92 (All SPARC/no-1000/2000) OW3.1 5.2 2.2 May 93 (All SPARC + 1000/2000) OW3.2 5.3 2.3 Nov 93 (All SPARC + SS10SX) OW3.3 5.3 2.3 5/94 Mar 94 (SS5-audio & Voyager) OW3.3 5.3 2.3 8/94 Sep 94 (All SPARC+SSA+S24 fb) 5.4 2.4 Dec 94 (All SPARC + Intel) OW3.4 5.4 2.4 3/95 Mar 95 (All SPARC+SSA) OW3.4 5.5 2.5 Nov 95 (All SPARC+Fusion-[NO SUN4/SUN4E]+SSA) OW3.5 All I recall about pre 4.0 was that we were using SunOS 3.5 in '88. I'd like to think 3.2 came out in '85 or '86--but memory isn't what it used to be... More research: first patch in Sun patch library: Patch-ID# 100001-01 Keywords: cc stack overflow local variable Synopsis: C compiler: stack overflow: too many local variables Date: 20-Apr-88 SunOS release: 3.4, 3.5 Sun's bug database still contains bug reports going back to 3.2 (heck, even 2.2 and 1.0) but none of them have dates ;((( Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id CAA18903 for pups-liszt; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 02:10:43 +1100 (EST) >From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Wed Dec 16 01:04:11 1998 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA18895 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 02:10:33 +1100 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA26443; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:04:12 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199812151504.KAA26443(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: Unix History Diagram In-Reply-To: <199812142344.KAA05594(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "Dec 15, 98 10:44:25 am" To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:04:11 -0500 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > All, > > I was thinking of trying to update my `History of UNIX' diagram at > http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/TUHS/Images/unixtimeline.gif, to bring it up > to date and make it more accurate. The current status of my update is at: > > http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Unix_History/ > > I'm missing details on many of the commercial versions of UNIX: > > + SunOS/Solaris > + SysVR4.x > + Ultrix > + Xenix > + Unixware :-) > + BSDI stuff > + lots more A couple of lesser known BSDish oddities from Big Blue.... Add IBM's AOS. That was a straight 4.3BSD port dating from 1987 or 1988. This was the only official port for the RT-PC hardware. Add IBM's unofficial ``Reno'' port. That was a somewhere between 4.3/4.4 port dating from 1991 or 1992. It was apparently done by IBM or IBM contractors. It looks very straight 4.4, in appearance. Add IBM's unoffical ``4.4Lite'' port. That was a somewhere between 4.4 and the real Lite dating from 1994 or 1995. It was apparently done by IBM or IBM contractors, with source trees from two development streams combined together to resolve developmental divergences. They all were used on the RT-PC hardware (ROMP Risc processor). The 4.3 is very nice. Code size about 75 megs binary. It runs fine on a small machine with 8 megs ram and 115 megs HD, or the biggest RT class machine. The C compilers are slightly broken, but usually can be worked around (good old pcc seems the best). The Reno is fair to good, but missing things like working tape I/O. You can tar or dump, but no other tape functions work correctly. Code size about 150 megs binary. It needs 16M ram and 300mb HD. I dunno exactly how ``Reno'' it really is. The 4.4Lite is fair to good, but still missing working tape I/O. Code size about 300 megs binary. It needs 16M ram and 300mb HD. Bloat seems to have set in on this one, since the whole system is well over 1 gig in size. It barely will run on two 300mb HD. The login says it is 4.4Lite and not straight 4.4. There is no indication of how pure ``Lite'' it really is. I dunno anything about how these originated developmentally, but the AOS seems to be vanilla 4.3BSD and all else may have developed from that, possibly after the RT line became back-burner stuff. I would be very interested in any history from anyone on the list that was around IBM at the time on these. ....... Add Xenix for the Radio Shack 16B machines on 8 inch floppers. That seems to date from around 1982 or 1983, although I have misplaced my disks on that one, and don't have the machine anymore. I was thinking someone on the list had one of those beasts running? That is all I can think of offhand to add..... Bob Keys p.s. Anyone got a spare V7ish Xenix they would part with for x86 hardware? I would like to try a native suite rather than an emulator, if possible. There were one or two such ports I am thinking like Xenix, Microport, or PC-IX maybe? I just missed one a few days ago at out state surplus house, when I picked it up, looked at it, set it down, and then someone else grabbed it... oh, well....(:+{{..... Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id FAA19970 for pups-liszt; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 05:43:04 +1100 (EST) >From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Wed Dec 16 04:36:37 1998 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA19965 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 05:42:55 +1100 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA26799; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:36:37 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199812151836.NAA26799(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: Unix History Diagram --- AOS quirks In-Reply-To: <19981215122947.B11834(a)rek.tjls.com> from Thor Lancelot Simon at "Dec 15, 98 12:29:47 pm" To: tls(a)rek.tjls.com Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:36:37 -0500 (EST) Cc: rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (User RDKEYS Robert D. Keys) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > > A couple of lesser known BSDish oddities from Big Blue.... > > > > Add IBM's AOS. That was a straight 4.3BSD port dating from 1987 or 1988. > > This was the only official port for the RT-PC hardware. > > I have a paper about this port which claims that it's in fact tahoe or so, > and has an independent implementation of mmap(). I'll try to dig it up -- > > I think it was in one of the old Waite Group books. Please do! I would like to see that. I did see at one time Tahoe mentioned, but I did not understand how the IBM ports were related through that. There are so few folks around that know anything about these IBM critters, even on the old RT newsfeed. Most of the stuff has become dumpster fodder, sadly, although I had the good fortune this past week to resurrect two RT's from the dumpster, and get one up by combining sufficient parts to get it to boot. What specifically would one look for to exactly differentiate a vanilla 4.3, from a Tahoe, from a Reno, from a 4.4, from a 4.4Lite, on non-standard hardware? The books get somewhat obscure on this unless running VAXen or HP300's or such. The RT is a little bit non-standard. I was thinking it was a 68000ish machine in IBM's wrappers, but others have said it was distinctly different from a 68000 based line. Also, I can't find anyone that was in on the AOS project enough to know from whence it was originally derived. The dating seems to be 1987 or 1988. Was Tahoe around then? Salus suggests straight 4.3 was June of 1986, and Tahoe was June of 1988 (Salus, p. 165). Anyone around CSRG then that remembers when IBM got what code? Salus does not mention any IBM AOS stuff, only the mainframe stuff. AOS seems to be mostly a sleeper, almost forgotten in time. ..... > > Add IBM's unoffical ``4.4Lite'' port. That was a somewhere between 4.4 > > and the real Lite dating from 1994 or 1995. It was apparently done by > > IBM or IBM contractors, with source trees from two development streams > > combined together to resolve developmental divergences. > > Someone here had a tape of this, yes? There is a Finnish repository that has some of it relating to the 4.3 port, and one or two other RTish archives. Try something like jumo.luti.fi, or jumi.luto.fi, or something like that, but I don't have the url exactly, and can't find the stick'em note where I ran across it. Yes, there was an IBM'er that said he had some original tapes. I was hoping he would check with someone at IBM to see what the status was. There was a group at Carnegie-Mellon that had some machines with AOS, but I don't have any pointers to anyone up there, for sure. I would hope the old RT boxes and AOS would fall under the Antique Unix umbrella, and thus, be amenable to the PUPS archives scope of things. But, I am only a newbie voice in the crowd..... >From what I have found out, there were two install tapes and two boot floppies. The main boot floppy is the sautils disk (stand alone utilities). That then loads a miniroot floppy that does the scripted install. The scripts don't work unless you have the original tapes, and the orignal hardware configuration which was a pair of 70mb esdi drives. The installation needs to be done manually, instead, if the hardware differs from that. It should be a straight 4.3 style restore process. I guess they expected only to have dual 70mb esdi drives in the old RT tower machines, as AOS platforms. The first tape is the combined root and user dumps to hd0a and hd0g. The second tape is the source tree dump to hd1g. > The AOS releases I saw all came with source. I wish IBM would donate the > bits they wrote -- much information on ROMP processor bugs, etc. simply > doesn't exist anywhere else. That is how I understand it. There were some manuals for it, but noone seems to know anything about those anymore, and what info I have is more sketchy than for sure. There was also some other machine called an ``Academic Machine'' that was a siamesed ROMP processor on a Model 60 PS/2 MCA bus machine. I have not exactly understood how that thing actually worked, and noone on the net seems to have one, although there are two ROMP boards that are reputed to still exist that plug into the MCA Model 60 PS/2 box. Apparently the Model 60 was the terminal/disk IO system and the ROMP board ran the BSD. > Patches to fix this circulated widely -- I recall one _very_ late night > in Bill Cattey's office at Athena waiting for someone in Stockholm to > send us a patch so we could make some tapes I needed the next morning. The thing will tar/dump to the tape, but won't retension or erase correctly. If you know what that patch was, I would be interested in it, for sure. I assume it has to do with something like twiddling the right hardware ports with the right bit patterns, maybe, to run the retension and erase functions on the hardware. I am curious, though, and wonder if something like the 4.3 mt, which does work, would work correctly in the Lite suite. I was of the impression that there was some binary compatibility between 4.3 and 4.4/4.4-Lite, but I am not sure. ..... > > The 4.4Lite is fair to good, but still missing working tape I/O. > > Code size about 300 megs binary. It needs 16M ram and 300mb HD. > > Bloat seems to have set in on this one, since the whole system is > > well over 1 gig in size. It barely will run on two 300mb HD. > > The login says it is 4.4Lite and not straight 4.4. There is no > > indication of how pure ``Lite'' it really is. > > Wow, I wonder if it really is "Lite". Again... I wish IBM would free > the relevant bits, we've wanted for a long time to make NetBSD run on > these beasts. One major obstacle is that nobody at IBM seems to even > know where the "official" sources are, or who would have authority to > turn them over. I have no idea how pure or impure the code is. I came along so late in the song and dance act that I don't know enough of the internals to compare, yet. So much to learn..... Years ago I bounced this off our IBM rep, but went to AIX on the PS/2, instead of the RT BSD. I did not know very much then, nor now....(:+{{..... > > I dunno anything about how these originated developmentally, but > > the AOS seems to be vanilla 4.3BSD and all else may have developed > > from that, possibly after the RT line became back-burner stuff. > > I would be very interested in any history from anyone on the list > > that was around IBM at the time on these. > > Me too. Who all on the list were IBM'ers in that era that might still remember enough of this to fill us in? The history is half the fun, and sure makes the perspective on the rest more interesting and well rounded. Anyone on the list actually playing around and running an RT? I am beginning to feel very lowendian that I am not on a PDP11, VAX, HP300 or such.....{:+{{... but, a VAXStation 3500 just appeared in surplus.... maybe the bidding force will be with me. Bob Keys Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA20122 for pups-liszt; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 06:15:11 +1100 (EST) >From Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> Wed Dec 16 05:14:23 1998 Received: from harrier.Uznet.NET (harrier.ml.org [193.220.92.194]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA20114 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 06:14:57 +1100 (EST) Received: from dosdev (pm8-143.dial.qual.net [205.212.2.143]) by harrier.Uznet.NET (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA10682 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 00:14:31 +0500 Message-Id: <199812151914.AAA10682(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> From: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> Date: 15 Dec 1998 19:14:23 GMT To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: A program to read tapes in a snap Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Dear PUPS/TUHS members, While exchanging tapes and tape images with a number of people on this list, I have mentioned the existence of this program to a number of people, but so far I haven't given it to anyone. Now I'm posting it to the list for everyone's benefit. This program can read a tape on a UNIX box without the user having to know anything about its format. This program automatically determines how many files are on the tape, what is the record size for each, and whether there are any oddities such as partial records. It saves each tape file into a separate disk file and produces a log of everything found on the tape. It's a simple C program and should compile and run on virtually any UNIX or UNIX-like system. The original version was written by one guy I met on another list once and then it was significantly enhanced by me. I include it below as a uuencoded gzipped tarball. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Cellular phone: 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET Enclosure: uuencoded cptape.tar.gz: begin 644 cptape.tar.gz M'XL("`ZQ=C8``V-P=&%P92YT87(`[5AM4QLW$.:K]2L$-(,-QOC`.!D[ID,( MM&D)S$#2-YKIB#N=?<-9<N_D&)KPW[N[.OGN'%+:SD`^Y'8FPTE:[<NS;W)> MBRL91K%<>D#RVNUNI\.7./?:W1W\RSN[M+;D=9YRWNWN[.[NM+>];6)K[R[Q M]D,:Y6B:&I%POC2^3CO=?^![.PS.'\.>1Z95M@H1>)UE`0]UPOV)$1/)5AD[ M??'#H#86D6II=GYVD'W[C!T<'>]_=SZH;9XR9ME[M6_JP-Y@-=_G]I-O:B>+ M?6DW*_H,G1WNOWQ]^+`Z[JE_K[-=J/^=I\C6WNU6]?\89`N4)U($*1><%I'B M6DF>CK1I\DDL_$@-N13^R!Y3HXB4T<"?RHE(A)$\B-(K1B="!3S6PR%>,B/D MA*8R%B;2BHM+/36@S-=)P-/H+YFV7`,A13+]-WKLB1)C&?`U_&XIM=;DLY%, M)%.*1RDI-C.]&43#R,#M/Z=2F4C$7$W'ES+A.B06$@1V$3OJK(/O@?2CL8@9 M)H9!+V:1&?&VUVCQ-R.9VEL`5B*Y#[@9L"*R(OQIDH`>,!)<-#JY:?$C:*AF M%*4,.%.MR$I%<*-DP96<D>8F03[3TSC@"O&*XYM,/'#-!5*#CDR3^0$'8."+ M\$ZF*FNU/$ST&(U))$![,I=D#R&DJ.!2T@V1@K@XUK.T-X_"9DSF6!>?IQ/` M0L1[C!&X^8;#&(/@P$R$=04`?!_YH,SR$EQ-+EO#5I-MP=F62L:FC6""D%D4 MQ[F?=P667*:L6(P60]?+E^:VK]FH"1Y'J4$+`88\K5)[2E;GR<B<IM;7,Z_L M1']8'??T_]W=;KO0_]O(MMWUJO[_&+2USOBZ:P^;W->3FV*90.%,U972,^4* M)99J:$9P:8NQU4CY\33`OF""2+=&>X6MT%<F+F_))%$+7.E-ND65#KML-8#B MA39X\N+M48V>!J@CI#7?@U7Y7J3]3(-4010R!L."#Z71$\/KC3Z3UT8FT!A' M$.!UV!3)<+Z)K+`5J:")?\&R?JX?U)V_^NW0FM#=>=:I;:WS?1_]IZFF^1C& M6;W3:/*QN+9X7<;:O[)MI`8$H&(W.3\X?T7GJ6M</^W_@LW3Z_[8RABWR'`6 M:`2_COT[!*-@A"(N#7+*;O;9T:OC0[Z>'?79!X860@*;R(<XI=%001,D?R^G M82B3B\R3=WWBG+/$&MRP`57:GI$:D*HG,)\&O+UP`X\@H'#BY?Q&HU&X(IVP M!"[LQ!?/[M1(\]%'C`!L/$:(ZOW^W)2-C0;_P&K$?'EC9(J#$GAKE#G6K-K\ M`-;X9PZ9];GIP@<94(/DJ>?\SWF;Y*/J"8C427UE_OQ907X\2:290H9X?5I! MY'%^8\R$XG0)0U:[Y3*&MT!9P6!0T(!'#M&&W8(3,LF/=2KK"%\#3FJX7;0) M'DF3J0U'CQ,O&4<\\CHR=8^6M_!ODD`@POK*&W!C+)(K&+0P%*%L:2JN/FEO M3W]7*TT7/[J7?6]LN$4><U)Q:_^@?[G98%!ZAQJ$SQJ7P580DD&4P0%`$D:I MAB=#((QP[08>:`CHI^E"N,Z2R!BI,`D<J,MWH.IP.'>/MMS_9G'&]_B3N(1( M,\,5:!Y'\@<US8O0\H29EFR[R5>._KN6.U2EF=R\@$`T=464O!`]S!H(%KV9 M2C?:W6YW;KGE&O!-[_X$0TF?3;!"?G@VS+94LWRIY34-.X6:_323%HIQ>5#H M!R4CLU#^+!(%D>PY8%<!TW)F8U'B)(a)E%N,LH.U/S*"S@[A*J$.;:IS'^'W;< MK_HVR^=B8YLG1I;SL(U?ME'D[:TDR+E0NK=<B$3#EL==@2?AI>+U^K90\S;G M2IG:]2V>A?:$935]<OKF['#_X/O#E[AKW:)YAB_+.HQ<'WZB),/W=I#ANL_L M1%[';3?$\-`OS!(WY.@'QH"?O#T^MJ>E$5@ZL?=H&-QU,9^C',LBWP1GPWAH M8T";LQ&*KM=]V+//B8(?D!!Q;Z710)`/3X\(WA1^3<#OD[I/*U]`TUN+UWH6 MO;(C[AEB@PT!NH)O>':(:6QZ[NZW[JXUC1IUD3^+AK46HY^Y\/%C]J9!X]!D M:+$>V>2R&MYIP`L^3%,QQ-JW#[\+^-F7V?F.0((DQKR@7K#=Z"_J*_B4#6P7 MCA![1?$<=,U6W"A>SBNM/(:+`C-G\SY4<G<AOAB2"^OTNWZ!(R"LP90B?Y.? M_G'V\O3D^%?HEIE7-*6S&]0NT9]YN8`$>O'9_Q9QI9-CXY6QR<KH,T^Y/I3' BEW[O5U1111555%%%%5544445551115\?_0UI&$I7`"@``)6Q ` end Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA20201 for pups-liszt; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 06:34:19 +1100 (EST) >From Pat Barron <pat(a)transarc.com> Wed Dec 16 05:34:00 1998 Received: from fw0.transarc.com (xfw.transarc.com [192.54.226.51]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA20196 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 06:34:09 +1100 (EST) Received: from mailhost2.transarc.com (mailhost2.transarc.com [158.98.14.14]) by fw0.transarc.com (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) with ESMTP id OAA10918; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:32:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from smithfield.transarc.com (smithfield.transarc.com [158.98.16.10]) by mailhost2.transarc.com (8.8.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id OAA01327; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:34:00 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:34:00 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Barron <pat(a)transarc.com> Reply-To: Pat Barron <pat(a)transarc.com> To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Unix History Diagram --- AOS quirks In-Reply-To: <199812151836.NAA26799(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.981215141724.4474C-100000(a)smithfield.transarc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote: > [...] The RT is a little bit > non-standard. I was thinking it was a 68000ish machine in IBM's > wrappers, but others have said it was distinctly different from a > 68000 based line. No, the ROMP (the RT's CPU) is a RISC CPU. I have a processor reference for the C-ROMP (the CMOS version that was on the 6152 Academic Workstation), but I only have hardcopy. > Yes, there was an IBM'er that said he had some original tapes. I was > hoping he would check with someone at IBM to see what the status was. That would probably be me. I'm still looking - I have a call in right now to someone who might be able to help. > There was a group at Carnegie-Mellon that had some machines with AOS, > but I don't have any pointers to anyone up there, for sure. Best bet would probably be someone at the ITC or the CS department, or the Andrew Consortium. Don't really know many of those folks anymore, though, and not sure if anyone from the right time period is still around. > [...] There was also some other machine > called an ``Academic Machine'' that was a siamesed ROMP processor > on a Model 60 PS/2 MCA bus machine. I have not exactly understood > how that thing actually worked, and noone on the net seems to have > one, although there are two ROMP boards that are reputed to still > exist that plug into the MCA Model 60 PS/2 box. Apparently the > Model 60 was the terminal/disk IO system and the ROMP board ran > the BSD. I have one in my living room.... Yes, your description is pretty much correct. The C-ROMP co-processor plugs into the Model 60 (though I don't know why it couldn't be used with another type of Microchannel PS/2). The co-processor card has the C-ROMP CPU, support hardware, and memory. To IPL the thing, you run a DOS program on the PS/2 that loads the boot program into the C-ROMP memory, and twiddles some bits that start the processor. The C-ROMP board pretty much takes over the machine, and uses the PS/2 itself as an I/O processor. --Pat.

26 years, 6 months

Re: John Lions

by Dave Horsfall

It's possible that my incoherent outburst may have offended a few people, in which case I apologise. In my defence, I would like to say that Dr. John Lions was my lecturer at Uni of NSW, and I still remember him saying that he and Ken Robinson (anyone know how he's doing?) saw this article in CACM, and were going to write off for it. Thus from little acorns do mighty oak trees grow, or however the aphorism goes... Requiescat In Pace. PS: In the "2nd Book," look under the "Acknowledgements" section; I helped him with the NROFF layout (I printed chapters on an LA36 Duckwriter (as we called them!) to see how they were formatted). -- Dave Horsfall VK2KFU dave(a)geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: +61 2 9978-7422 Geac Computers P/L (FGH Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia

26 years, 7 months

Re: 9-track tape interfaces

by David C. Jenner

Tim Shoppa wrote: > > A lot, so I snipped it out! > As long as this thread is red hot, how about these questions: I have an M4 Data 9914 tape drive with Pertec and SCSI interfaces. It will do 800, 1600, 6250. I want to set up and run 2.11BSD on a Q-Bus system. 1) I'd rather not spend a lot to get a SCSI interface. I now have Emulex TC02 and Dilog DQ130 Q-Bus controllers. Is there any way these controllers are going to enable 6250 BPI? 2) Is there another Q-Bus, Pertec controller that will do 6250? 3) If I had a Q-Bus SCSI controller, would it enable 6250? 4) (Already asked in thread) Supposing I get the hardware to work at 6250, will 2.11BSD handle it? Thanks, Dave Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id HAA15025 for pups-liszt; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 07:27:55 +1100 (EST) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Tue Dec 8 06:27:09 1998 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (trailing-edge.wdn.com [198.232.144.27]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id HAA15020 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.adfa.edu.AU>; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 07:27:28 +1100 (EST) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.adfa.edu.AU; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 15:27:09 -0500 Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 15:27:09 -0500 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Message-Id: <981207152709.2f0000e2(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: 9-track tape interfaces Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >1) I'd rather not spend a lot to get a SCSI interface. I now have > Emulex TC02 and Dilog DQ130 Q-Bus controllers. Is there > any way these controllers are going to enable 6250 BPI? Sure - I use them at 6250 BPI all the time. The controller doesn't have to know what density the data is at - the formatter takes care of that. If you absoultely insist on the computer being able to switch the drive between 1600 and 6250 BPI modes, you won't be able to achieve this with a TC02 or DQ130 under 2.11BSD, but this is purely a frill as you can always select the mode from the drive's front panel. One thing you do have to worry about is data rate. Pertec formatted interfaces on "fast" buffered modern drives may want to suck or spew data at rates that are often too fast for a lowly TC02 or DQ130's capability to push data over the Q-bus. Most modern Pertec- formatted drives will let you throttle the rate to something reasonable. And some more modern Q-bus controllers - like the Dilog DQ152 - have internal buffers for handling such cases without having to throttle the drive itself. >4) (Already asked in thread) Supposing I get the hardware to work > at 6250, will 2.11BSD handle it? Absolutely. I use a Fuji 2444 and a Storagetek 2925 with a TC02 and 2.11BSD all the time in 6250 BPI mode. I had to throttle the data rates on both, but that's not such a big deal. On the other hand, my Storagetek 2920, which is pretty much a 2925 without the cache option, doesn't let me throttle the data rate at 6250 mode because there is no effective buffer. These don't work with my TC02 on a Q-bus machine, but they do work with a TC13 on a Unibus 11/44 or with a DQ152 on a Q-bus -11. Also keep in mind that some third-party controllers don't interact well with the fast polling that the most recent Q-bus CPU's can do. For example, my TC02 won't work at all with a loaned Mentec M100 (roughly comparable with a 11/93) that I have. I've never had this problem with 11/83's and slower CPU's. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA15470 for pups-liszt; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 09:40:18 +1100 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Tue Dec 8 08:33:57 1998 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA15465 for <PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 09:40:09 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id OAA07800; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 14:33:57 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 14:33:57 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199812072233.OAA07800(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au, SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com Subject: Re: 9-track tape interfaces Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Tim - Howdy. > I'm pretty sure that 2.11BSD properly handles TU81 density select > in its TMSCP driver. (Steve, can you confirm this? I know you've > made some effort to get write caching to work with TU81's over the years!) Indeed it does. However TMSCP only defines 800,1600 and 6250 so on the quad density drive I have the 3200 setting must be selected manually on the front panel of the tape drive. Also the 'enable cache' works fine and makes a dramatic difference on a TU81+ attached to an 11/44. The 'cache enabled' setting is sticky across open/close cycles so that you set it once manually when the first reel is loaded. This was done to avoid having to modify dump/restore/tar/etc > In any event, remote density selection/reporting is largely a > frill, as any drive/controller combination that I ever used let you > explicitly select it with a physical button or a switch and displayed > the current selection in some useful way on the drive. Quite so. Eons ago the one Cipher drive supported 800/1600 operation but the controller (TM11 clone) did not - you just made sure to select the density on the front panel when loading the tape Steve Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA16643 for pups-liszt; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 14:49:04 +1100 (EST) >From Peter Chubb <peterc(a)softway.com.au> Tue Dec 8 13:48:27 1998 Received: from swag.sw.oz.au (firewall-user(a)gw.softway.com.au [203.31.96.1]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA16638 for <PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 14:48:47 +1100 (EST) Received: from swarm.sw.oz.au (swarm.sw.oz.au [192.41.203.66]) by swag.sw.oz.au (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA12733 for <@smtp.sw.oz.au:PUPS@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 14:48:41 +1100 (EST) Received: (from peterc@localhost) by swarm.sw.oz.au (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id OAA50560; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 14:48:27 +1100 (ADST) From: Peter Chubb <peterc(a)softway.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <13932.41355.645423.303757(a)swarm.sw.oz.au> Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 14:48:27 +1100 (ADST) To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: John Lions Comments: Hyperbole mail buttons accepted, v04.023. Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Associate Professor John Lions, who was instrumental in UNIX's acceptance in Australia, and in its popularity (through his two books) world wide, died last Saturday morning, after long illness. Peter C Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA16671 for pups-liszt; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 14:52:06 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Dec 8 13:54:59 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA16665 for <PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 14:51:59 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA09118; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 14:54:59 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199812080354.OAA09118(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: John Lions To: peterc(a)softway.com.au (Peter Chubb) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 14:54:59 +1100 (EST) Cc: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au In-Reply-To: <13932.41355.645423.303757(a)swarm.sw.oz.au> from Peter Chubb at "Dec 8, 98 02:48:27 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Peter Chubb: > Associate Professor John Lions, who was instrumental in UNIX's > acceptance in Australia, and in its popularity (through his two > books) world wide, died last Saturday morning, after long > illness. Gee, that's very bad news. Thanks for the email, Peter. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id SAA17323 for pups-liszt; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 18:20:42 +1100 (EST) >From Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> Tue Dec 8 17:19:34 1998 Received: from harrier.Uznet.NET (harrier.ml.org [193.220.92.194]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA17317 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 18:20:24 +1100 (EST) Received: from dosdev (pm6-41.dial.qual.net [205.212.2.41]) by harrier.Uznet.NET (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA16509 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 12:19:42 +0500 Message-Id: <199812080719.MAA16509(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> From: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> Date: 8 Dec 1998 07:19:34 GMT To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 9-track tape interfaces Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Dear Tim, You write: > Hmm - you said it has a 40-pin connector. Yes. A straight flat ribbon cable connects it to the bulkhead, which has a female 37-lead D-sub connector on the outside. > Any obvious buffers (or banks of buffers) near the external connector? I have just spent a couple of hours tracing the etches on this board, and here is what I have found out. One side of the 40-pin connector is all ground (well, that's pretty obvious). On other side we have the following. 4 pins are permanently connected to pull-up resistors, and one pin is permanently connected to a pull-down resistor. The other 15 pins are connected through jumpers so that the user can connect or disconnect them on an individual basis. Some of these go to different outputs of a 74S241 (dual 4-bit 3-state buffer), some go to a 7437 (unfamiliar with this IC), and some go to a missing IC. Both halves of the 74S241 are permanently enabled. All 8 outputs of this half are connected to different pins on the connector. 7 of them are connected in the obvious way, but one is also connected to a pull-up resistor (purpose non-understood, since the 3-state buffer is always enabled). The jumpers for all 8 are ON. Then there are 3 pins that go to the 7437. Although 3 pins of the connector are used for this, 4 pins of the 7437 are used. Two of the connector pins go through simple jumpers, and both are OFF. The third pin is connected to two different 7437 pins through different jumpers. One of them is ON and the other is OFF. Finally, there are 4 pins that connect to a missing IC. The jumpers for all 4 are OFF. Now, does this tell you anything? :-) > What are the date codes on the chips? The most recent dates are mid-1988. > [Explanation of the mess with host-side density control] OK, from now on I'll only use the front panel switch for density selection. :-) > other times they're used to put the drive into streaming > vs non-streaming mode, other times it's used to change the speed on > a streaming drive. Hmm, this is another big gap in my knowledge. What does streaming vs. non-streaming mean? > The QT13 will support either IDEN-style density select or CDC-style > density select [...] How does it determine which one to use? Is there a switch on the board? > Yep, the RC25 also used the LESI bus. (LESI="Low End Storage > Interconnect".) Hmm, so then KLESI can do disk MSCP as well as TMSCP, right? Can it do both simultaneously or only one at a time? > They all look similar, and have similar mechanics, but the 81's > electronics can do 6250 BPI, something an 80's can't. But they are all different CDC Keystones, right? This means that my Keystone may or may not support 6250 BPI, right? How can I tell? > No, the Keystone and the Kennedy 9300 are not the same beast. The > Keystone is a cute little streaming tape drive, while the 9300 is > a humongous [...] "Cute little"?!?! I mean, I'm still amazed how I was able to get it inside my apartment without knocking a couple walls down first! It's certainly huge compared to the REALLY cute little Cipher we had at CWRU. (I really miss that Cipher, BTW. Not only is it much smaller, according to what I have been able to glean from the docs, it's much easier to load tapes into than the Keystone. But then of course if this Keystone does 6250 BPI I will be much more than happy with it.) But hey, if the Keystone is a cute little baby, poor CSRG fellows! I think Kennedy 9300 was their primary machine, and I can just imagine what it is like if the Keystone is "cute little". Does the 9300 do 6250 BPI? > [...] vacuum-column 125IPS machine. Yet another gap in my knowledge. I remember seeing the term "vacuum columns" in the BSD documentation and having no idea what are they. Could you enlighten me? > (I'm sure someone will > now chime in about the days when Univac UniServo drives ruled the > earth...) Just out of curiosity, what are they? Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Cellular phone: 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id TAA17591 for pups-liszt; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 19:52:37 +1100 (EST) >From Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> Tue Dec 8 18:49:40 1998 Received: from caveman.geac.com.au (caveman.geac.com.au [203.30.73.2]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id TAA17586 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 19:52:29 +1100 (EST) Received: (qmail 17458 invoked from network); 8 Dec 1998 08:00:32 -0000 Received: from brane.geac.com.au (202.6.67.115) by caveman.geac.com.au with SMTP; 8 Dec 1998 08:00:32 -0000 Received: from fgh.geac.com.au by brane.geac.com.au with smtp\n (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0znIp4-0003mgC; Tue, 8 Dec 98 19:48 AEDT Received: from localhost (dave@localhost) by fgh.geac.com.au (SMI-8.X/SVR4) with ESMTP id TAA14339; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 19:49:40 +1100 Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 19:49:40 +1100 (EST) From: Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> X-Sender: dave@fgh To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 9-track tape interfaces In-Reply-To: <199812080719.MAA16509(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.03.9812081928170.14240-100000@fgh> X-No-Archive: Yes X-Witty-Saying: "Tesseract - Enter at own risk" X-Disclaimer: "Me, speak for us?" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On 8 Dec 1998, Michael Sokolov wrote: > on an individual basis. Some of these go to different outputs of a 74S241 > (dual 4-bit 3-state buffer), some go to a 7437 (unfamiliar with this IC), >From my TTL Data Book: Quadruple 2-input positive-NAND buffer (Y=AB bar). Outputs are 3, 6, 8, 11. Corresponding inputs are 1/2, 4/5, 9/10, 12/13. Vcc is 14, GND is 7. > Hmm, this is another big gap in my knowledge. What does streaming vs. > non-streaming mean? Streaming means that data can be supplied to the tape (or read from) fast enough to keep it moving, as opposed stop/start (or more likely, stop backspace start). Requires double-buffering somewhere. > Yet another gap in my knowledge. I remember seeing the term "vacuum > columns" in the BSD documentation and having no idea what are they. Could > you enlighten me? ROTFL :-) Look at an old Sci-Fi movie some time, in particular the obligatory IBM tape drives spinning back and forth. The vacuum columns were buffers; columns into which bits of the tape were sucked so as to keep the tape moving past the heads at constant velocity (not sure how good the clock recovery was in those days) whilst the reels did their thing. The column has various pairs of pressure sensors, between which the tape was kept for that particular mode; if it crept past one hole, it upset the pressure differential, and the pumps came into play... Remember, folks; this real-time stuff was *before* micro-chips! I still remember looking at the old Cipher (I have the magic codes somewhere, that allowed it to load with the door open etc) aghast that it had no vacuum columns, but swing-arms instead... > > (I'm sure someone will > > now chime in about the days when Univac UniServo drives ruled the > > earth...) > > Just out of curiosity, what are they? Big BIG tape drives - real Sci-Fi material :-) -- Dave Horsfall VK2KFU dave(a)geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: +61 2 9978-7422 Geac Computers P/L (FGH Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id UAA17635 for pups-liszt; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 20:06:48 +1100 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Dec 8 19:06:34 1998 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA17630 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 20:06:39 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id TAA02406; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 19:36:35 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id TAA29044; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 19:36:34 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19981208193634.A29025(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 19:36:34 +1030 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au>, Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 9-track tape interfaces References: <199812080719.MAA16509(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> <Pine.GSO.4.03.9812081928170.14240-100000@fgh> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.03.9812081928170.14240-100000@fgh>; from Dave Horsfall on Tue, Dec 08, 1998 at 07:49:40PM +1100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tuesday, 8 December 1998 at 19:49:40 +1100, Dave Horsfall wrote: > On 8 Dec 1998, Michael Sokolov wrote: >>> (I'm sure someone will now chime in about the days when Univac >>> UniServo drives ruled the earth...) >> >> Just out of curiosity, what are they? > > Big BIG tape drives - real Sci-Fi material :-) UniServo was UNIVAC's name for all its tape drives, at least as long as I was involved with them. They were all vacuum column jobs, but some were definitely ``cheap'' ones, such as the UniServo 6 and 12, which were intended for smaller machines. IIRC the latest ``big'' ones were the UniServo 16 and 20, at least when I was still involved with UNIVAC. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id BAA18425 for pups-liszt; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 01:02:41 +1100 (EST) >From Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> Tue Dec 8 23:59:53 1998 Received: from caveman.geac.com.au (caveman.geac.com.au [203.30.73.2]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA18420 for <PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 01:02:33 +1100 (EST) Received: (qmail 18804 invoked from network); 8 Dec 1998 13:10:39 -0000 Received: from brane.geac.com.au (202.6.67.115) by caveman.geac.com.au with SMTP; 8 Dec 1998 13:10:39 -0000 Received: from fgh.geac.com.au by brane.geac.com.au with smtp\n (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0znNf8-0003mmC; Wed, 9 Dec 98 00:58 AEDT Received: from localhost (dave@localhost) by fgh.geac.com.au (SMI-8.X/SVR4) with ESMTP id AAA28663 for <PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 00:59:54 +1100 Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 00:59:53 +1100 (EST) From: Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> X-Sender: dave@fgh cc: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: John Lions In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.03.9812081523440.10402-100000@fgh> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.03.9812090031300.14240-100000@fgh> X-No-Archive: Yes X-Witty-Saying: "Tesseract - Enter at own risk" X-Disclaimer: "Me, speak for us?" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Dave Horsfall wrote: > Thanks for letting us know. Damn... Sic transit gloria mundi. Damn. John, why did you have to die? You taught me everything that I knew. Shit. -- Dave Horsfall VK2KFU dave(a)geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: +61 2 9978-7422 Geac Computers P/L (FGH Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id BAA18465 for pups-liszt; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 01:13:54 +1100 (EST) >From Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> Wed Dec 9 00:13:08 1998 Received: from harrier.Uznet.NET (harrier.ml.org [193.220.92.194]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA18460 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 01:13:41 +1100 (EST) Received: from dosdev (pm10-206.dial.qual.net [205.212.2.206]) by harrier.Uznet.NET (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA16834 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 19:13:22 +0500 Message-Id: <199812081413.TAA16834(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> From: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> Date: 8 Dec 1998 14:13:08 GMT To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 9-track tape interfaces Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> wrote: > From my TTL Data Book: Quadruple 2-input positive-NAND buffer (Y=AB bar). > Outputs are 3, 6, 8, 11. Corresponding inputs are 1/2, 4/5, 9/10, 12/13. > Vcc is 14, GND is 7. Looks trivial, except that the author of the digital design textbook I'm using has chosen to omit it. :-) Anyway, I have looked at the board again, and all pins that go to the connector are outputs. This means that at least in this form, with the U10 chip omitted, there are NO inputs on that connector, only outputs. That missing chip could very well have to do with inputs, though. Hmm, there are 4 lines going to that missing chip, and that sounds like the number of input lines in some flavor of Centronics. On the output side, 8 pins go to the 74S241 and 3 pins go to the 7437, again suggesting 8-bit output and some control signals. All this sounds very much like Centronics or some similar interface. Figuring out what the host interface is and what do those myriads of switches and jumpers mean would be harder, though. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Cellular phone: 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET

26 years, 7 months

Re: Some nice progress with hardware and Ultrix in the PUPS archive

by Michael Sokolov

Dear Tim, You write: > I'd be glad to run off TK50's from images > for you, though I think your earlier idea, about installing from > the miniroot image that's commonly put on 4.2- and 4.3BSD derived > distributions, is a *far* better idea as it avoids using a TK50 > tape drive at all. I will need to boot from a tape at some point in any case. I have to boot from SOMETHING. Since none of the disks in this machine is bootable, I have to boot either from a tape or over the network. Since the only two computers in my apartment are the VAX in question and my DOS machine, netbooting is not an option. Well, I could attach another disk to the PC, download FreeBSD, and install it, but this is _WAY_ too much pain. Also there is no guarantee of success with this approach, since there are all kinds of traps waiting to catch me. The spare disk I'm talking about may turn out to be toast, FreeBSD may not like something about this PC, the DELQA in the VAX may turn out broken, etc., etc., etc. OTOH, the labor investment in just trying it out is enormous (this PC has a VERY special configuration, and adding another disk may turn out to be a royal pita, plus downloading FreeBSD or some other PeeCee UNIX clone over my 14400 BPS modem is going to be a nightmare). On the other hand, I know that the TK50 boot path is working, since I have been able to boot from some VMSish tape (see my previous messages), thus all I need is a good Ultrix tape. Another friendly PUPS member has promised to send me copies of his Ultrix tapes, so hopefully I'll get something going. > It's not that tape copies are bad ideas - it's just that TK50's > are so slow. If you were coming from 9-track or DLT or something > fast, that wouldn't be so bad. Are 9-track tapes faster than TK50s? In addition to the TK50 I also have the CDC Keystone and the QT13 which seems to work after all, but I _STRONGLY_ doubt that it's going to be any easier. This big beast is very dirty, it has been exposed to a little rain, and it has been dropped on concrete pavement a couple times, so before I even try plugging it in, I would have to perform a very careful cleaning and inspection procedure, and I currently don't have anywhere near the resources and knowledge needed for that operation. > If you can get just about any OS running on your > Q-bus machine, under any CPU - i.e. NetBSD, RT-11, 2.11BSD, RSX, > whatever you might have - then you can just write the miniroot > straight to a "scratch" disk. Again, regardless of what approach I take, I'll need to boot from some device first. See above. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Cellular phone: 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id DAA13664 for pups-liszt; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 03:51:29 +1100 (EST) >From Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> Tue Dec 8 02:49:46 1998 Received: from harrier.Uznet.NET (harrier.ml.org [193.220.92.194]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA13659 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 03:51:04 +1100 (EST) Received: from dosdev (pm8-105.dial.qual.net [205.212.2.105]) by harrier.Uznet.NET (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA15637 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 21:50:03 +0500 Message-Id: <199812071650.VAA15637(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> From: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> Date: 7 Dec 1998 16:49:46 GMT To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: 9-track tape interfaces Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Dear Tim, Your explanation of 9-track tape interfaces is extremely helpful! Thanks! This area has always been a huge gap in my hardware knowledge. What I still don't understand is how do all these interfaces handle the issue of recording density (800 BPI vs. 1600 BPI vs. 6250 BPI). You are saying that the Pertec unformatted interface is very low-level. Do you mean that it gives the controller the raw stream from the heads without trying to separate data and clock bits? It is my understanding (please correct me if I'm wrong) that the difference between 1600 and 6250 BPI is the data encoding (PE vs. GCR) and that the actual magnetic density (flux transitions per inch) is the same. If so, does this mean that a Pertec unformatted transport can be made 1600 or 6250 BPI at the formatter's discretion without the transport knowing or caring about the density? I mean, is it like the ST-506/412 MFM vs. ST-506/412 RLL thing? And how does the Pertec formatted interface address this issue? In this case the controller has to tell the transport what density it wants with the transport being able to accept or deny the request depending on its capabilities, right? You write: > Yep, Pertec formatted. The QT13 is nice because it'll emulate > either MU: or MS:-type devices. This brings me to the following question. Assuming that the Pertec formatted interface does carry explicit density control information, which software interface would be a better choice in terms of density control, TS-11 or TMSCP? It is my understanding that the original UNIBUS TS-11 is a formatter for Pertec unformatted transports that supports 1600 BPI only, right? If so, the TS-11 interface doesn't give the OS any control over the density, does it? If so, what density does the QT13 choose in this mode? And what about TMSCP? How much control does it give to the OS in terms of density selection? > Yep, a TS05 is a rebadged Cipher F880 (with some slightly-different > firmware). And where does it stand density-wise? According to DEC, TS05 is a 1600 BPI only transport, and as far as I can remember, the Cipher at CWRU had "1600 BPI" printed on the back somewhere. However, it had a switch on the front panel labeled "HI DEN" or something like that. What the hell is this? According to DEC docs, on TS05 this switch is labeled "ENTER" and the docs call it "reserved". > It probably had 4 50-pin edge connectors [...] Yes. > [...] so that multiple drives could > be chained on the same Pertec-formatted-bus. (There are terminators at > each end of the bus, much like SCSI.) There's provisions for at least > 4 formatters per bus, with each formatter potentially running multiple > drives. Huh! I have never thought about it this way. > (again, with slightly different firmware - for instance a DEC TU80 > controller > will only work with TU80 drives or their CDC equivalent, the Keystone.) CDC Keystone is exactly what I have here. The interface coming out of the (incredibly huge) cabinet is Pertec formatted. Does it have a Pertec unformatted interface lurking inside or not? Which densities does it support? > TU80's and TS(V)05's are simple > Pertec formatted interfaces. Other times they convert to some other > interface (Massbus, LESI, etc.) before the cables come out to the "real > world". Hmm, the only DEC tape transport with LESI I know of is TU81+. Are there any others? And what about that plus? Has there ever been a TU81 without the plus? My manuals are at my main VAX farm from which I'm currently away, but I remember the picture of the TU81+ in there looked similar to the Keystone I have here. Since you say above that TU80 is Keystone in disguise, does it mean that TU80, TU81, and TU81+ are all the same beast with different interface converters tacked on? And what is LESI anyway? I have heard somewhere that the KLESI controller can drive more than just a TU81+, so is LESI actually more than just a tape interface? Oh, what about that leading edge strobe vs. trailing edge strobe? Your vmsnet.pdp11 posting with the QT13 switch settings says that Kennedy 9300 uses trailing edge strobe while all others use leading edge strobe. Mine, however, is set for trailing edge strobe, and it was connected to the Keystone. Does this mean that the Keystone and Kennedy 9300 are the same beast, or is it simply that the 9300 is not the only transport using trailing edge strobe? Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Cellular phone: 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id DAA13678 for pups-liszt; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 03:51:55 +1100 (EST) >From Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> Tue Dec 8 02:51:09 1998 Received: from harrier.Uznet.NET (harrier.ml.org [193.220.92.194]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA13671 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 03:51:39 +1100 (EST) Received: from dosdev (pm8-105.dial.qual.net [205.212.2.105]) by harrier.Uznet.NET (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA15642 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 21:51:19 +0500 Message-Id: <199812071651.VAA15642(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> From: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> Date: 7 Dec 1998 16:51:09 GMT To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Sigma unidentified flying board Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Dear Tim, You write: > Any chance it's a simple parallel I/O? > > Could also be the bus interface for a Sigma and/or DSD MFM drive > controller (if so, it probably emulates RL02's). The assembly number > sounds vaguely DSD-like. From looking at the board I see that the BDMGI and BDMGO fingers are simply shorted and not connected to any circuitry. This means that the board is non-DMA, right? If so, it can't emulate RL-11 or any other DEC disk controller because they are all DMA, right? The BIAKI and BIAKO fingers ARE connected to some circuitry, though, so at least this board interrupts, right? And what's DSD? What MFM controller are you referring to? The "SIGMA INFORMATION SYSTEMS, INC." label and the assembly number are etched, not silk-screened, stamped, or stickered, so it suggests that Sigma is the original designer. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Cellular phone: 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id FAA14057 for pups-liszt; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 05:32:10 +1100 (EST) >From Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com> Tue Dec 8 04:41:59 1998 Received: from mail.calweb.com (mail.calweb.com [208.131.56.12]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA14052 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 05:32:00 +1100 (EST) Received: by mail.calweb.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id KAA09365 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 10:31:55 -0800 (PST) X-SMTP: helo rgc from rickgc(a)calweb.com server @12.22.0.83 ip 12.22.0.83 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19981207104119.00926100(a)pop.calweb.com> X-Sender: rickgc(a)pop.calweb.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 10:41:59 -0800 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) From: Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com> Subject: Rugged 1182 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Dear PUPS list, I recently picked up a rack mounted computer that is called a "Rugged 11/82". One individual I know has suggested that it is a pdp 11/82 is a ruggedized box. Has anyone on this list seen one of these. Is there any software in the PUPS archive that might run on one of these? Sincerely, Rick Copeland Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id FAA14248 for pups-liszt; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 05:53:26 +1100 (EST) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Tue Dec 8 04:53:01 1998 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (trailing-edge.wdn.com [198.232.144.27]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id FAA14243 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 05:53:13 +1100 (EST) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 13:53:01 -0500 Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 13:53:01 -0500 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU Message-Id: <981207135301.2f0000e2(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: Rugged 1182 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >I recently picked up a rack mounted computer that is called a "Rugged >11/82". One individual I know has suggested that it is a pdp 11/82 is a >ruggedized box. Has anyone on this list seen one of these. I have seen ruggedized 11/83's, as well as "Industrial 11/83"'s, but it's not clear yet exactly what you have. The obvious solution is to look inside and see what Q-bus and/or Unibus boards are present. > Is there any >software in the PUPS archive that might run on one of these? Some ruggedized PDP-11 systems didn't have a real Q-bus or Unibus backplane at all, making it very difficult (if not impossible) to use them with a standard disk controller. That's why it's vital that you figure out what exactly is in your machine. Assuming that the guts are indeed a Q-bus or Unibus KDJ-based CPU, you'll be able to run 2.11BSD once you get a compatible disk, load, and console system up and going on it. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA14657 for pups-liszt; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 06:42:52 +1100 (EST) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Tue Dec 8 05:42:28 1998 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (trailing-edge.wdn.com [198.232.144.27]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id GAA14652 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.adfa.edu.AU>; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 06:42:35 +1100 (EST) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.adfa.edu.AU; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 14:42:28 -0500 Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 14:42:28 -0500 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Message-Id: <981207144228.2f0000e2(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: 9-track tape interfaces Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > Are 9-track tapes faster than TK50s? In every reasonable case that I know of, yes. >In addition to the TK50 I also have >the CDC Keystone and the QT13 which seems to work after all, but I >_STRONGLY_ doubt that it's going to be any easier. This big beast is very >dirty, it has been exposed to a little rain, and it has been dropped on >concrete pavement a couple times, so before I even try plugging it in, I >would have to perform a very careful cleaning and inspection procedure, and >I currently don't have anywhere near the resources and knowledge needed for >that operation. You're lucky - there's an incredible scarcity of moving parts on a TU80/CDC Keystone: two reel motors and a blower are all you've got. There's also two metallic "hub" sensors used to sense tape motion/tension. Clean these and the heads, load a scratch tape with write ring, power it up, close the door, make sure the logic is on, and hit "TEST" followed by "EXECUTE". It'll go into a self-test mode, including some maximum-Maytag gymnastics, which will run for 15 minutes or so on a 2400-foot tape. [Unknown Sigma board] > From looking at the board I see that the BDMGI and BDMGO fingers are >simply shorted and not connected to any circuitry. This means that the >board is non-DMA, right? If so, it can't emulate RL-11 or any other DEC >disk controller because they are all DMA, right? The BIAKI and BIAKO >fingers ARE connected to some circuitry, though, so at least this board >interrupts, right? Hmm - you said it has a 40-pin connector. Given that it doesn't do DMA, I'm guessing that it's either a DLV11-type clone (a single serial line) or a parallel interface (either a DRV11-C type or a line-printer driver, possibly either Data Products or Centronics interface.) > And what's DSD? Data Systems Design - they made some disk controller subsystems. > The "SIGMA >INFORMATION SYSTEMS, INC." label and the assembly number are etched, not >silk-screened, stamped, or stickered, so it suggests that Sigma is the >original designer. Any obvious buffers (or banks of buffers) near the external connector? What are the date codes on the chips? > What I still don't understand is how do all these interfaces handle the >issue of recording density (800 BPI vs. 1600 BPI vs. 6250 BPI). You are >saying that the Pertec unformatted interface is very low-level. Do you mean >that it gives the controller the raw stream from the heads without trying >to separate data and clock bits? At least at 800 and 1600 BPI, the Pertec Unformatted interface does do the data recovery. There's a line from the formatter that puts the drive into either PE (1600 BPI) or NRZI (800 BPI) mode, and some optional lines that set the thresholds of the analog comparators used for data recovery. I'm not too sure about Pertec Unformatted drives at 6250 BPI. > It is my understanding (please correct me >if I'm wrong) that the difference between 1600 and 6250 BPI is the data >encoding (PE vs. GCR) and that the actual magnetic density (flux >transitions per inch) is the same. 6250 BPI is definitely higher flux density on the tape (in addition to the different encoding.) > And how does the Pertec formatted interface address this issue? In this >case the controller has to tell the transport what density it wants with >the transport being able to accept or deny the request depending on its >capabilities, right? There are a couple "spare" lines on the Pertec formatted interface so that the host can tell the formatter such "optional" information. The interpretation of these spare lines was never perfectly standardized: sometimes they're used to select 800 vs 1600 or 1600 vs 6250 BPI operation, other times they're used to put the drive into streaming vs non-streaming mode, other times it's used to change the speed on a streaming drive. The IDEN line was the most commonly used line on the Pertec formatted interface to choose these options, but some CDC drives implemented a scheme where density/speed negotiation were done in a much more complex way. > This brings me to the following question. Assuming that the Pertec >formatted interface does carry explicit density control information, which >software interface would be a better choice in terms of density control, >TS-11 or TMSCP? It depends on what your OS's driver is capable of. In most cases TMSCP gives you more control. > It is my understanding that the original UNIBUS TS-11 is a >formatter for Pertec unformatted transports that supports 1600 BPI only, >right? Right. > If so, the TS-11 interface doesn't give the OS any control over the >density, does it? The "official DEC" TS-11 interface didn't. The DEC TSV05 interface (which was upward-compatible with the TS11's) gave the software control over the "high speed" vs "low speed" bit. And as I pointed out, some drives could be set to interpret this bit as a density select. I don't think the ability to set/clear this bit ever made it into 2.11BSD (looking at the ts driver code there I don't see it, at least) and I have no idea if it ever made it to the 4.xBSD's. > If so, what density does the QT13 choose in this mode? The QT13 will support either IDEN-style density select or CDC-style density select, and I believe in MS: mode this choice is made through the TSV05 speed-select bit. >And what about TMSCP? How much control does it give to the OS in terms of >density selection? TMSCP is much more flexible, and supports at least two different schemes for selecting and reporting density. Here's what I've figured out about possible reported-back density values in the TMSCP packets (as excerpted from my DUSTAT.MAC): DENTBL: TBLENT 1 ,<NRZI 800 BPI> TBLENT 2 ,<PE 1600 BPI> TBLENT 4 ,<GCR 6250 BPI> TBLENT 10 ,<Cartridge (TK50)> TBLENT 401 ,<NRZI 800 BPI> TBLENT 402 ,<PE 1600 BPI> TBLENT 404 ,<GCR 6250 BPI> TBLENT 420 ,<TU82 special high density>;according to RSTS/E TBLENT 1001 ,<Cartridge (TK50)> TBLENT 1002 ,<Cartridge (TK70)> ; 20xx entries are supposed to be RV80, whatever that is, ; according to RSTS/E sources. I'm pretty sure that 2.11BSD properly handles TU81 density select in its TMSCP driver. (Steve, can you confirm this? I know you've made some effort to get write caching to work with TU81's over the years!) In any event, remote density selection/reporting is largely a frill, as any drive/controller combination that I ever used let you explicitly select it with a physical button or a switch and displayed the current selection in some useful way on the drive. >> Yep, a TS05 is a rebadged Cipher F880 (with some slightly-different >> firmware). > And where does it stand density-wise? According to DEC, TS05 is a 1600 >BPI only transport, and as far as I can remember, the Cipher at CWRU had >"1600 BPI" printed on the back somewhere. However, it had a switch on the >front panel labeled "HI DEN" or something like that. What the hell is this? Some Cipher's (I think F890's) supported a special 3200 BPI mode. It was never in real wide use, but it was supported on some other manufacturer's drives (some Kennedy 96xx's, for example.) I know that some F880's had a button that said "HI DEN" but was for all normal purposes non-functional (I think it did become useful for selecting diagnostics.) > CDC Keystone is exactly what I have here. The interface coming out of >the (incredibly huge) cabinet is Pertec formatted. Does it have a Pertec >unformatted interface lurking inside or not? Which densities does it >support? 1600 BPI only, it's an "embedded-formatter" drive, so there is no internal Pertec unformatted interface. > Hmm, the only DEC tape transport with LESI I know of is TU81+. Are there >any others? Yep, the RC25 also used the LESI bus. (LESI="Low End Storage Interconnect".) > And what about that plus? Has there ever been a TU81 without >the plus? Hmm - the non-plus may have been the version without write-caching. Not real sure. >Keystone I have here. Since you say above that TU80 is Keystone in >disguise, does it mean that TU80, TU81, and TU81+ are all the same beast >with different interface converters tacked on? They all look similar, and have similar mechanics, but the 81's electronics can do 6250 BPI, something an 80's can't. > And what is LESI anyway? I have heard somewhere that the KLESI >controller can drive more than just a TU81+, so is LESI actually more than >just a tape interface? It was CDC's attempt at a SCSI-like universal interface. > Oh, what about that leading edge strobe vs. trailing edge strobe? Your >vmsnet.pdp11 posting with the QT13 switch settings says that Kennedy 9300 >uses trailing edge strobe while all others use leading edge strobe. Mine, >however, is set for trailing edge strobe, and it was connected to the >Keystone. Does this mean that the Keystone and Kennedy 9300 are the same >beast, or is it simply that the 9300 is not the only transport using >trailing edge strobe? Hmm - some combinations of drives may not be sensitive to this. (It's also possibly a misprint in my QT13 manual, as I remember having to futz with this switch's setting in some cases to get everything to work.) No, the Keystone and the Kennedy 9300 are not the same beast. The Keystone is a cute little streaming tape drive, while the 9300 is a humongous vacuum-column 125IPS machine. (I'm sure someone will now chime in about the days when Univac UniServo drives ruled the earth...) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 7 months

Re: Some nice progress with hardware and Ultrix in the PUPS archive

by Warren Toomey

In article by Michael Sokolov: > As I was thinking about how else can I get correctly written Ultrix > tapes, the following idea sneaked into my mind. The PUPS archive already > contains PDP-11 Ultrix. How about VAX Ultrix? With Warren's permission, I > would be more than happy to upload my VAX Ultrix tape images (I have them > sitting as files on my DOS disk). Once that is done, would someone > volunteer to download them, write them to two TK50 cartridges, and send > them to me? TIA for any help. We have to be careful with 3rd party UNIXes. We would have to get approval from DEC (or whoever they are) to allow us to add their product into the archive. I did this with V7M and the later Ultrix-11s before DEC got bought out. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id BAA04900 for pups-liszt; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 01:36:15 +1100 (EST) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Sun Dec 6 00:33:16 1998 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (trailing-edge.wdn.com [198.232.144.27]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA04895 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 01:36:03 +1100 (EST) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com; Sat, 5 Dec 1998 9:33:16 -0500 Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 9:33:16 -0500 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET CC: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU Message-Id: <981205093316.2de002c3(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: System Industries MSCP disk controller problem Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > I have just tried configuring the board as you have suggested and it >works! Thanks! You have saved the Project! "It has to be simple or I can't do it :-)". In this case (like just about all), it's a matter of getting rid of unknowns. > When I tried starting WOMBAT, it also worked. However, there are tons of >configuration parameters you can set there. Oh yeah - the Webster controllers are wonderfully configurable. It's incredibly useful, as one physical disk can be partitioned up many ways into "virtual" MSCP units - especially useful for OS's which don't deal well with large units (or when it's desirable to have many different versions of many different OS's on the same disk.) >Do you have a full manual for this controller? Would you mind sending me a >xerox copy? Sure, for the cost of copying and postage. Or I'd trade you for some surplus of yours. > What about VAXen? Can you still call 1-800-DIGITAL with a _BIG_ credit >card in hand and order a VAX? Yep - high end 3100 and 4000 units are still available. (It looks like someone has already pointed you towards the Emulex QD21 and QT13 docs available around the net.) > And while we are at it, I have a question about 9-track tape transports >and controllers in general. I often hear about something called Pertec. >What is it? Is it some kind of standard interface that nearly all tape >transports use? Nearly all non-SCSI, non-proprietary interface tape drives will have either (or both) Pertec formatted and Pertec unformatted interfaces. Pertec unformatted drives have three cables; one carries read data, another carries write data, and the third carries control signals. It's a rather low-level interface - the controller tells the drive to go forward, then reads or writes data, with the controller responsible for all the timing. The controller gets to do the nitty-gritty work of repositioning and spacing forward and backward over tape marks. Pertec formatted drives have two 50-pin cables. It's a higher-level interface, where the "formatter" does a lot of the nitty-gritty work, and the controller in the backplane just has to spew out data bytes (or take them in). Many times you'll see a Pertec unformatted drive with a formatter bolted onto it with two 50-pin cables coming out. (In most cases, a formatter could control multiple physical drives.) Other times you'll find "embedded formatter" drives, where there is no 3-cable unformatted interface lurking inside. > It is what this QT13 controller is for? (It has 2 50-lead >connectors.) Yep, Pertec formatted. The QT13 is nice because it'll emulate either MU: or MS:-type devices. > I remember at CWRU there was a very neat-looking tape >transport called Cipher. It looked EXACTLY like DEC TS05, suggesting that >it's what the TS05 really is. Yep, a TS05 is a rebadged Cipher F880 (with some slightly-different firmware). > That one also had a two-50-lead-cables >interface as far as I could tell (it was disconnected). It also appeared to >be dual-ported. It probably had 4 50-pin edge connectors, so that multiple drives could be chained on the same Pertec-formatted-bus. (There are terminators at each end of the bus, much like SCSI.) There's provisions for at least 4 formatters per bus, with each formatter potentially running multiple drives. > Does this mean that DEC also used this Pertec interface? Yep. Actually, the DEC TS05/TSV05/TU80 controllers are rebadged Dilog boards (again, with slightly different firmware - for instance a DEC TU80 controller will only work with TU80 drives or their CDC equivalent, the Keystone.) >Then why are there different DEC controllers for different DEC 9-track tape >transports (TSV05 for TS05, KLESI for TU81+, etc.)? If they were all Pertec >one controller would fit all, wouldn't it? Or is that some DEC 9-track tape >hardware uses Pertec and other DEC hardware doesn't? At the guts of most DEC tape drives, you will often find either a Pertec formatted or unformatted interface. TU80's and TS(V)05's are simple Pertec formatted interfaces. Other times they convert to some other interface (Massbus, LESI, etc.) before the cables come out to the "real world". > Moving on to the next and last unidentified flying board. This one is a >total mystery. The board is labeled "SIGMA INFORMATION SYSTEMS, INC." and >"ASSY NO 400135 REV A". There are NO microprocessors, ROMs, or any other >LSI chips on the board, only SSI/MSI chips, resistors, and capacitors. It's >a dual-height board. It has 3 8-switch packs. There is one 40-lead shrouded >header connector on the board, and a straight 40-lead ribbon cable connects >it to a bulkhead which has a female 37-lead D-sub connector on the outside. >Any ideas on what in the world is this? Any chance it's a simple parallel I/O? Could also be the bus interface for a Sigma and/or DSD MFM drive controller (if so, it probably emulates RL02's). The assembly number sounds vaguely DSD-like. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id BAA04942 for pups-liszt; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 01:44:43 +1100 (EST) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Sun Dec 6 00:42:42 1998 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (trailing-edge.wdn.com [198.232.144.27]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA04937 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 01:44:33 +1100 (EST) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU; Sat, 5 Dec 1998 9:42:42 -0500 Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 9:42:42 -0500 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU Message-Id: <981205094242.2de002c3(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: Some nice progress with hardware and Ultrix in the PUPS archive Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > As I was thinking about how else can I get correctly written Ultrix >tapes, the following idea sneaked into my mind. The PUPS archive already >contains PDP-11 Ultrix. How about VAX Ultrix? As Warren pointed out, there might be a problem with putting such tapes on the PUPS archive. I'd be glad to run off TK50's from images for you, though I think your earlier idea, about installing from the miniroot image that's commonly put on 4.2- and 4.3BSD derived distributions, is a *far* better idea as it avoids using a TK50 tape drive at all. It's not that tape copies are bad ideas - it's just that TK50's are so slow. If you were coming from 9-track or DLT or something fast, that wouldn't be so bad. If you can get just about any OS running on your Q-bus machine, under any CPU - i.e. NetBSD, RT-11, 2.11BSD, RSX, whatever you might have - then you can just write the miniroot straight to a "scratch" disk. You can also write the root dump and tar savesets straight to another scratch disk, in "raw" format, if you desire. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 7 months

Re: System Industries MSCP disk controller problem

by Michael Sokolov

Dear Tim, I have just tried configuring the board as you have suggested and it works! Thanks! You have saved the Project! When I tried starting WOMBAT, it also worked. However, there are tons of configuration parameters you can set there. All 4 disks connected to this controller are already configured and formatted, so for now I'd just leave it alone and install Ultrix on these disks as they are. For the future, however, I would really appreciate being able to configure all that stuff. Do you have a full manual for this controller? Would you mind sending me a xerox copy? > What else are commercial developers left to do now that > DEC (after over a decade of trying to) has finally abandoned their > PDP-11 product line? What about VAXen? Can you still call 1-800-DIGITAL with a _BIG_ credit card in hand and order a VAX? > You might be a bit hasty in casting these off, as you aren't having > the best of luck with the rest of the peripherals, either! Well, now that the WQESD works and while I'm waiting for the TQK50 (one very friendly PUPS member is providing me with a working one), I can turn my attention to these two. Let's start with the 2-drive ESDI one. The Emulex logo and copyright appear in a lot of places, so there is no problem with identification. The board is labeled "ASSY QD2110402 REV G", and just like every other Emulex board I have ever seen, it has a 40-pin chip with an Emulex SUB-ASSY sticker. In this case it's "QD2110202-00G". Do you know anything about this board? It has two switch packs, one of 4 and one of 8. What are the switch settings? Now let's turn to the 9-track tape controller. Again there is no problem with identification (straight Emulex). The board is labeled "ASSY QT1310401-00 REV E" and the 40-pin chip is labeled "QT1310201-02 REV K". Again it has one 4-switch pack and one 8-switch pack. There is something seriously wrong with this board, since when it's present in the backplane the CPU refuses to power up. It stalls at that infamous 9 very early in the power-up sequence, before any console tests or displays, suggesting that something is HORRIBLY wrong with Q-bus (maybe a short or something?). And while we are at it, I have a question about 9-track tape transports and controllers in general. I often hear about something called Pertec. What is it? Is it some kind of standard interface that nearly all tape transports use? It is what this QT13 controller is for? (It has 2 50-lead connectors.) I remember at CWRU there was a very neat-looking tape transport called Cipher. It looked EXACTLY like DEC TS05, suggesting that it's what the TS05 really is. That one also had a two-50-lead-cables interface as far as I could tell (it was disconnected). It also appeared to be dual-ported. Does this mean that DEC also used this Pertec interface? Then why are there different DEC controllers for different DEC 9-track tape transports (TSV05 for TS05, KLESI for TU81+, etc.)? If they were all Pertec one controller would fit all, wouldn't it? Or is that some DEC 9-track tape hardware uses Pertec and other DEC hardware doesn't? Moving on to the next and last unidentified flying board. This one is a total mystery. The board is labeled "SIGMA INFORMATION SYSTEMS, INC." and "ASSY NO 400135 REV A". There are NO microprocessors, ROMs, or any other LSI chips on the board, only SSI/MSI chips, resistors, and capacitors. It's a dual-height board. It has 3 8-switch packs. There is one 40-lead shrouded header connector on the board, and a straight 40-lead ribbon cable connects it to a bulkhead which has a female 37-lead D-sub connector on the outside. Any ideas on what in the world is this? > I'm willing to bet that you have severe Q-bus continuity problems, > especially now that you've told us that you have an expansion Q-bus > cabinet and that you've been randomly moving Q-bus cards around. I am perfectly aware of the fact that Q-bus requires grant continuity and, no, I was NOT moving cards around "randomly". I have them in the order DEC recommends in all of its manuals. There is no problem with the expansion backplane either, the WQESD is quite happy sitting there right now. > Is the "BA23" indeed a real DEC BA23, and not the Sigma "clone"? A real DEC one, of course. While I have never been a DEC engineer or anything like that, I have certainly seen and used enough BA23s to tell one from a third-party box. The expansion backplane is Sigma, though. > The sigma 5.25" 9-slot backplanes have very different backplane > wirings (and, indeed, putting a DEC dual-wide Microvax CPU into > it will very likely cause damage.) Yes, I know. The yellow sticker on the expansion backplane says: "CAUTION! Do not install MicroVAX or KDJ11-B series CPUs into this backplane." Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Cellular phone: 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id IAA27264 for pups-liszt; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 08:36:51 +1100 (EST) >From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Fri Dec 4 07:35:51 1998 Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (mgate.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA27258 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 08:36:42 +1100 (EST) Received: from halcyon.com (66-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net [206.63.251.66]) by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA25750 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 3 Dec 1998 13:36:22 -0800 Message-ID: <36670437.966A4527(a)halcyon.com> Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 13:35:51 -0800 From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Reply-To: djenner(a)halcyon.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: System Industries MSCP disk controller problem References: <199812032008.BAA08080(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > > The sigma 5.25" 9-slot backplanes have very different backplane > > wirings (and, indeed, putting a DEC dual-wide Microvax CPU into > > it will very likely cause damage.) > > Yes, I know. The yellow sticker on the expansion backplane says: > "CAUTION! Do not install MicroVAX or KDJ11-B series CPUs into this > backplane." I have a box with one of these. I noticed the bussing appeared to be non-standard, but exactly what is the problem here? I also have a couple of Netcom HV1148 backplanes that appear to be non-standard. Any experience with these? What can you do with these backplane? What sort of Q-Bus system can you use them in? Thanks, Dave Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA28393 for pups-liszt; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 12:45:17 +1100 (EST) >From Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> Fri Dec 4 11:44:38 1998 Received: from harrier.Uznet.NET (harrier.ml.org [193.220.92.194]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA28387 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 12:45:04 +1100 (EST) Received: from dosdev (pm9-180.dial.qual.net [205.212.2.180]) by harrier.Uznet.NET (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA08380 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 06:44:46 +0500 Message-Id: <199812040144.GAA08380(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> From: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> Date: 4 Dec 1998 01:44:38 GMT To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Emulex QT13 and related questions Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Dear Tim and other Q-bus gurus, Emanuel Stiebler has pointed me to a message posted to vmsnet.pdp11 by Tim a while ago, and there I have found the info on Emulex QT13. Thanks! Since none of my two non-working TQK50s is currently installed, I have tried configuring the QT13 as the primary TMSCP controller and plugging it in. Guess what, this time it powered up without that ugly 9! Nice! I probably won't do much with it, though, since although I do have a 9-track tape transport here in my apartment, I want to leave it alone for now. It's enormous, by far the biggest piece of equipment here, and I don't feel like playing with it now. Some time later maybe. This exercise does raise a few questions, though. Suppose some time later I decided to use this beast. Suppose I wanted to make this QT13 a secondary TMSCP controller. This and other very similar exercises require knowing the rules for floating CSR and vector assignments. What can I find the complete rules for this? My ancient UNIBUS DZ11 manual only lists the earliest floating devices, no MSCP or DHUs or anything like that. I once had some MicroVAX manual that included a table for "common configurations", but I don't have it any more, plus I'm really looking for the complete rules and not just "common configurations". Any ideas? Of course if I had a KA655 or a KA660 I would just type "CONFIGURE" at the ">>>" prompt, but I only have a plain 650 which doesn't have this luxury. Also looking at the configuration of this QT13 board, I noticed that it was originally configured for trailing edge strobe. Tim's notes indicate that this is for Kennedy 9300 only and that the rest should use leading edge strobe. The tape transport I have here is labeled as CDC KEYSTONE. Is this another name for Kennedy 9300 or a different beast? Does anyone know anything about this transport? Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Cellular phone: 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA28457 for pups-liszt; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 13:14:10 +1100 (EST) >From Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> Fri Dec 4 12:13:33 1998 Received: from harrier.Uznet.NET (harrier.ml.org [193.220.92.194]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA28452 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 13:13:57 +1100 (EST) Received: from dosdev (pm11-9.dial.qual.net [205.212.3.9]) by harrier.Uznet.NET (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA08416 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 07:13:41 +0500 Message-Id: <199812040213.HAA08416(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> From: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> Date: 4 Dec 1998 02:13:33 GMT To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: System Industries MSCP disk controller problem Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk David C. Jenner <djenner(a)halcyon.com> wrote: > I have a box with one of these. I noticed the bussing appeared to > be non-standard, but exactly what is the problem here? I don't think it's non-standard. It's probably just a different standard. Strictly speaking, there is no such thing as a Q-bus backplane. There are Q/Q, Q/CD, and other types of Q-bus'ish backplanes. Generally, you call something a "Q-bus backplane" if it has Q-bus in rows A and B. Rows C and D may be used for lots of different things. In theory you can have these rows used for something REALLY weird. Allison J. Parent tells me that once upon a time you could get a special version of BA11 where rows C and D were customer-wired, i.e., you could have absolutely anything you want in there. In practice, however, there are only two types of row C&D wiring. On some backplanes you have Q-bus in both A&B and C&D, with the grant continuity going in a serpentine. Some BA11 versions are like this. Such backplanes are called Q/Q. On other backplanes Q-bus goes straight down the A&B rows without ever touching rows C and D. In these backplanes rows C&D are connected in a daisy chain, i.e., the fingers on the solder side of the board in slot 1 connect to the fingers on the component side of the board in slot 2, the fingers on the solder side of the board in slot 2 connect to the fingers on the component side of the board in slot 3, and so on. This way immediately adjacent boards can use rows C&D as a totally private interconnect that has zero effect on or relationship with anything else in the system, just like an over-the-top cable. The best example of this is RLV11, although the most common example is MicroVAX II and III memory. Such backplanes are usually called Q/CD, and the examples are some versions of BA11 and all BA2xx and BA4xx backplanes. Finally, there are mixed backplanes that have several Q/CD slots followed by many Q/Q slots. These are specifically designed for MicroVAXen and other CPUs using rows C&D as a private memory interconnect. These backplanes are BA23 (3 Q/CD slots and 5 Q/Q slots) and BA123 (4 Q/CD slots and 8 Q/Q slots). Getting back to the Sigma backplanes, the inability to put a MicroVAX CPU in there suggests that they are Q/Q. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Cellular phone: 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA29379 for pups-liszt; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 16:19:44 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Dec 4 15:21:40 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA29374 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 16:19:36 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA03261; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 16:21:40 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199812040521.QAA03261(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: New Apout PDP-11 simulator To: grog(a)lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 16:21:40 +1100 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) In-Reply-To: <19981204154443.E38307(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Dec 4, 98 03:44:43 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk [greg] Looks good. When are you going to add support for 2.11BSD? :-) [warren] I've just started. Emulating all 150+ syscalls is going to take a while. I'll try to modify the V7 syscall support for 2.11BSD; that should get most simple programs working. After that, one syscall at a time.... [greg] Hmm. I suppose the networking will cause you the most headaches (maybe... maybe, of course, you can pass them through to FreeBSD almost unchanged). Most of the things I use the PDP 11 for are networking (letting people dial in, etc), but I'll certainly try things out as soon as you think it would be worthwhile. I'm thinking sometime early next year for an initial release with just the `V7' syscalls in the 2.11BSD emulation. As you said, many of the syscalls will be a pass-thru, with just args and return values to be mapped. I'll let the list know as I go... Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id VAA00320 for pups-liszt; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 21:32:38 +1100 (EST) >From Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> Fri Dec 4 20:31:01 1998 Received: from harrier.Uznet.NET (harrier.ml.org [193.220.92.194]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA00315 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 21:32:17 +1100 (EST) Received: from dosdev (pm7-62.dial.qual.net [205.212.2.62]) by harrier.Uznet.NET (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA09422 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 15:31:28 +0500 Message-Id: <199812041031.PAA09422(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> From: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> Date: 4 Dec 1998 10:31:01 GMT To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Some nice progress with hardware and Ultrix in the PUPS archive Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Dear Ladies and Gentlemen, Emanuel Stiebler has graciously provided me with a reference to a freely downloadable copy of the Emulex QD21 manual. Using that manual, I have got mine configured correctly and ran firmware diagnostics on it. It looks like the Emulex card is OK, but for some reason it isn't seeing the drive attached to it. Probably a defective drive reporting not ready or maybe just a connection problem (the drive is mounted in some very weird way so that I can't even check the connection, let alone see the jumpers or anything). Oh well, I'll figure it out later. Right now i have the WQESD controller configured as the primary one, and it has 4 working 320 MB disks attached to it, so it should be enough for me to build and release 4.3BSD- Quasijarus1. But there is something even more interesting. I got the TK50 to work! Yay! It turned out that one of the TQK50 boards was working after all, it was simply being screwed up by the rest of the system standing on its ears. After I got the VAX to boot from some VMSish tape I have (it boots, asks for date and time, prints something about some "standalone backup" and gives me a "$" prompt, but I'm absolutely NULL in VMS, so this doesn't do me much good), I realized that I couldn't boot from my Ultrix tapes because there is something wrong with the way I wrote them. I wrote them on a TZ30 (half-height native-SCSI TK50 clone) connected to a 386 with an Adaptec 1520A running FreeBSD booted from a floppy (the 386's big ESDI hard disk is filled with DOS stuff only). In fact, when I tried reading that tape back on this very same FreeBSD thing it didn't read! Something is clearly wrong. As I was thinking about how else can I get correctly written Ultrix tapes, the following idea sneaked into my mind. The PUPS archive already contains PDP-11 Ultrix. How about VAX Ultrix? With Warren's permission, I would be more than happy to upload my VAX Ultrix tape images (I have them sitting as files on my DOS disk). Once that is done, would someone volunteer to download them, write them to two TK50 cartridges, and send them to me? TIA for any help. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Cellular phone: 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET

26 years, 7 months

New Apout PDP-11 simulator

by Warren Toomey

All, I've just spent the week tidying up my Apout program. This runs PDP-11 user-mode programs (specifically 7th Edition binaries), and translates V7 syscalls to native syscalls. I've tidied the program up and optimised it a bit too. Over the summer break (it's summer down here) I want to add floating-point and start work on emulating 2.11BSD user-mode binaries. The program runs on FreeBSD 2.2.x and 3.0 systems: porting to other 32-bit little-endian Unix systems should be relatively easy. Porting to big-endian systems might be harder :-) I'll have a look at that too. Anyway, an alpha of the new 2.2 version is at: ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/pub/PDP-11/Sims/Apout Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA24007 for pups-liszt; Thu, 3 Dec 1998 15:51:17 +1100 (EST) >From Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> Thu Dec 3 14:48:30 1998 Received: from harrier.Uznet.NET (harrier.ml.org [193.220.92.194]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA23997 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 3 Dec 1998 15:50:45 +1100 (EST) Received: from dosdev (pm8-114.dial.qual.net [205.212.2.114]) by harrier.Uznet.NET (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA06898 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 3 Dec 1998 09:48:58 +0500 Message-Id: <199812030448.JAA06898(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> From: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> Date: 3 Dec 1998 04:48:30 GMT To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: System Industries MSCP disk controller problem Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> wrote: > This sounds a lot like the Webster WQESD, which was repackaged > and sold by many different folks (Sigma, DSD, Qualogy, American > Digital, etc.) Quite possible, since this funny Xerox system has a lot of Sigma components. The outer box in which the BA23 is mounted is made by Sigma, the funny way the ESDI drives are mechanically mounted is clearly a Sigma invention, the card connecting the BA23 backplane to the expansion backplane in the outer Sigma box is made by Sigma, and so is another totally unmarked card of unknown purpose (its presence or absence appears to have absolutely no effect on anything). The system is not 100% Sigma, though. There also another 2-drive ESDI controller (that's the one that was at 172150 from the beginning) and a 9-track tape controller, both made by Emulex (QD21 and QT13, respectively) and both appear toast (I want to get rid of both). > If it is a repackaged WQESD, SW9 on the 10-switch pack was originally > on, with SW10 and SW5-8 off, to put the CSR at 160334. > To set it to be 172150, you put SW10 on, and SW5-9 off. Before I got your E-mail, SW5 and SW8 were ON and the rest were OFF (don't remember if it was the original position). I also tried SW10 ON and the rest OFF. In both cases the effect is exactly the same. At power-up the CPU screams, but then gives the ">>>" prompt. Trying to read different locations with the E/P/W command (the Q-bus I/O page is mapped at 0x20000000 in the VAX address space), I see that the card responds somehow to 160334 and to 160400, but not to 172150. (I know that it's this card and not something else, since when I pull it out the CPU is happy and no one responds to these addresses.) > Then again, it might not be a repackaged WQESD, but instead a Dilog > or Emulex. I'm 99% sure that it's neither Dilog nor Emulex. I have seen quite a few Dilog and Emulex cards, and I think I should be able to detect them easily. > Is there a 10-pin header on the card edge? Can you describe the > positions and types of "big chips" on the board? This is a quad-height board. All components are thru-hole and all chips are in DIP packages. There are no 4-sided chips or surface-mounted components. Hold it with the component side up, the fingers to the right and the handles to the left. On the left (handle) side there is a row of shrouded header connectors. From top to bottom, they are: 10-pin (connected to something, but purpose unknown), 34-pin (ESDI control and status), 20- pin (drive 0 data), 20-pin (drive 1 data), 20-pin (drive 2 data). Directly behind the bottom 20-pin header there is another 20-pin header for drive 3 data. The biggest chip is a 48-pin DIP labeled DP8466AN (National Semiconductor as far as I can tell), and it's right behind the drive 3 data connector. There are two AM2901CPCs behind the 34-pin connector. There is one 28-pin EPROM right about in the center, shifted downward a little. The ROM size is obscured by the sticker saying "ESDI V2.41 9901-8918 REV.A". There is a stack of narrow 24-pin DIP chips going from the top of the board to right above the EPROM. All have stickers, suggesting that they are programmable. The stickers have different 6-character codes on them, all starting with "1583". Directly to the right from the last one there is one more such chip labeled "SYS IND 1583W3". Actually, I was wrong about there being 2 switch packs. There are 3 of them, one of 10 and two of 4. The 10-switch one is right above the chip labeled "SYS IND 1583W3". In the top right corner (right next to row A fingers) there is a 4-switch pack. All switches are ON. Directly behind it there is a 16-pin DIP chip labeled "1583I1" (the only chip with a sticker not mentioned before). At the top of the board directly to the left from the 10-chip stack there is a 10 MHz oscillator, the only clock on the board. Directly to the left from it there is the last 4-switch pack. All switches are ON. Finally, there are 3 LEDs between the top handle and the 10-pin header. The top one is red and the other two are green. > Some > other switches also set the interrupt priority, and this being > off can also confuse some tests and OS's. What's the correct priority for disk MSCP? Should it be different between primary and secondary? > As to your power-on self-test woes, you're going to have to tell > us what's in the system and what slot it lives in, as well as what > sort of backplane it's all in. The outer box is Sigma. It provides funny mounting for 4 ESDI drives, an expansion Q-bus backplane, and a big bay for a BA23. The BA23 contains the CPU, the memory, and all peripherals except the controller in question. First comes the KA650 CPU. Then two MS650 memory modules. Then DELQA, DZQ11, TQK50, and the Sigma Q-bus extender card. The latter takes the Q-bus into the expansion backplane, where the controller in question is the only device. It's in the expansion backplane instead of the BA23 because that's where the actual drives are. I have tried pulling the Sigma Q-bus extender card out and putting the ESDI controller right in the BA23 backplane, but this didn't change anything, so there is nothing wrong with the Q-bus expansion. You know what, I just looked a little closer and noticed that in this configuration (both 4-switch packs all ON, SW1-9 on the 10-switch pack OFF, and SW10 ON) the controller responds not only to 160334 and 160400, but to just about any address in the Q-bus I/O page (except 172150)! No wonder the CPU screams about it! What the hell is going on? How can it possibly do this? Is someone trying to port Plug-n-Pray to Q-bus? Is it something like KFQSA with a separate address for each drive and everything soft- configured? Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Cellular phone: 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id BAA25817 for pups-liszt; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 01:27:17 +1100 (EST) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Fri Dec 4 00:25:04 1998 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (trailing-edge.wdn.com [198.232.144.27]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA25812 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 01:27:04 +1100 (EST) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU; Thu, 3 Dec 1998 9:25:04 -0500 Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 9:25:04 -0500 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU CC: SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com Message-Id: <981203092504.2de002c1(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: System Industries MSCP disk controller problem Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >> This sounds a lot like the Webster WQESD, which was repackaged >> and sold by many different folks (Sigma, DSD, Qualogy, American >> Digital, etc.) > Quite possible, since this funny Xerox system has a lot of Sigma >components. I regularly work with "PDP-11 systems" now that don't have a single DEC component in them. CPU by Mentec ( http://www.mentec.com/ ), disk controller by Andromeda ( http://www.andromedasystems.com/ ), async and parallel I/O by the Logical Company ( http://www.logical-co.com ), etc. What else are commercial developers left to do now that DEC (after over a decade of trying to) has finally abandoned their PDP-11 product line? At least the other companies named are still doing active support and (at least in Mentec's case) development! > The outer box in which the BA23 is mounted is made by Sigma, >... >though. There also another 2-drive ESDI controller (that's the one that was >at 172150 from the beginning) and a 9-track tape controller, both made by >Emulex (QD21 and QT13, respectively) and both appear toast (I want to get >rid of both). You might be a bit hasty in casting these off, as you aren't having the best of luck with the rest of the peripherals, either! >> If it is a repackaged WQESD, SW9 on the 10-switch pack was originally >> on, with SW10 and SW5-8 off, to put the CSR at 160334. >> To set it to be 172150, you put SW10 on, and SW5-9 off. > Before I got your E-mail, SW5 and SW8 were ON and the rest were OFF >(don't remember if it was the original position). I also tried SW10 ON and >the rest OFF. In both cases the effect is exactly the same. At power-up the >CPU screams, but then gives the ">>>" prompt. Trying to read different >locations with the E/P/W command (the Q-bus I/O page is mapped at >0x20000000 in the VAX address space), I see that the card responds somehow >to 160334 and to 160400, but not to 172150. (I know that it's this card and >not something else, since when I pull it out the CPU is happy and no one >responds to these addresses.) >> Is there a 10-pin header on the card edge? Can you describe the >> positions and types of "big chips" on the board? > This is a quad-height board. All components are thru-hole and all chips >are in DIP packages. There are no 4-sided chips or surface-mounted >components. Hold it with the component side up, the fingers to the right >and the handles to the left. On the left (handle) side there is a row of >shrouded header connectors. From top to bottom, they are: 10-pin (connected >to something, but purpose unknown), 34-pin (ESDI control and status), 20- >pin (drive 0 data), 20-pin (drive 1 data), 20-pin (drive 2 data). Directly >behind the bottom 20-pin header there is another 20-pin header for drive 3 >data. The biggest chip is a 48-pin DIP labeled DP8466AN (National >Semiconductor as far as I can tell), and it's right behind the drive 3 data >connector. There are two AM2901CPCs behind the 34-pin connector. There is >one 28-pin EPROM right about in the center, shifted downward a little. The >ROM size is obscured by the sticker saying "ESDI V2.41 9901-8918 REV.A". That clinches it - it's a Webster WQESD, running Wombat V2.41. 9901-8918 is evidently the SI part number for the complete system. It's a bit confusing to go from the SI part number because they all begin with "9900" or "9901"! > What's the correct priority for disk MSCP? Should it be different >between primary and secondary? A summary of the WQESD switch settings, and the various ways in which you can invoke Wombat, lives at: ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/hardware as the file "WQESD.txt". >> As to your power-on self-test woes, you're going to have to tell >> us what's in the system and what slot it lives in, as well as what >> sort of backplane it's all in. > The outer box is Sigma. It provides funny mounting for 4 ESDI drives, an >expansion Q-bus backplane, and a big bay for a BA23. The BA23 contains the >CPU, the memory, and all peripherals except the controller in question. >First comes the KA650 CPU. Then two MS650 memory modules. Then DELQA, >DZQ11, TQK50, and the Sigma Q-bus extender card. The latter takes the Q-bus >into the expansion backplane, where the controller in question is the only >device. It's in the expansion backplane instead of the BA23 because that's >where the actual drives are. I have tried pulling the Sigma Q-bus extender >card out and putting the ESDI controller right in the BA23 backplane, but >this didn't change anything, so there is nothing wrong with the Q-bus >expansion. I'm willing to bet that you have severe Q-bus continuity problems, especially now that you've told us that you have an expansion Q-bus cabinet and that you've been randomly moving Q-bus cards around. You have to tell us exactly which slot each card is in, and preferably the original configuration as well (the Sigma backplanes have different wirings than the common DEC ones.) Is the "BA23" indeed a real DEC BA23, and not the Sigma "clone"? The sigma 5.25" 9-slot backplanes have very different backplane wirings (and, indeed, putting a DEC dual-wide Microvax CPU into it will very likely cause damage.) As a start, work just with the BA23. Put the CPU in slot 1, with the two memory boards in slots 2 and 3. Put the WQESD in slot 4. Have nothing else plugged in at all - especially not the boards that jumper the two backplanes together. Set the DIPswitches on the WQESD as follows: 10-switch pack: Switches 1-2 off, 3 on, 4-9 off, 10 on. 4-switch pack near the edge connector: 1-3 on, 4 off. 4-switch pack near the handles: 1-4 on. Then try to start up wombat with the following sequence of console commands: Microvax II: Halt the processor U I D/P/W 20001F40 20 D/L 20088008 80000002 D/W 20001468 AC S 400 If this doesn't start Wombat, tell us *exactly* what the error message produced is. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 7 months

System Industries MSCP disk controller problem

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Dear Ladies and Gentlemen, I wonder, is anyone here familiar with System Industries (SI) Q-bus MSCP controllers for ESDI disks? The VAX I'm working has one. It's quad-height board with connectors for 4 ESDI drives. I couldn't find a model number or anything like that, but there is a sticker on one of the chips that says "SYS IND" on it (that's how I deduced that it's SI). The problem I'm having is that I have no idea how to configure it. It has two DIP switch packs, one with 4 switches and one with 10. Originally it was configured to be the secondary disk MSCP controller at 160334. I want it to be the primary one at 172150. I tried every reasonable switch combination I could think of, but no luck. What's even worse is that I can't leave it as secondary either. For some reason its configuration makes the CPU (KA650) unhappy. When I pull it out, the CPU passes all power-up tests beautifully. When I put it in, I still get to the ">>>" prompt eventually, but first I get a load of error messages from the self-tests. Then when I try to boot from DUB0, it tells me "DEVASSIGN", suggesting that it doesn't recognize the second disk MSCP controller at all. All docs I have suggest that 160334 is the correct address for secondary disk MSCP. It's in the floating address range, though, so I suspected that it's the side effect of adding or removing other cards. I tried making the configuration as close to the original as I could. No luck still. The only card I had to pull out is the secondary TMSCP (Emulex QT13 9-track tape controller), because it appears totally toast (the CPU refuses to power up with that infamous 9 when this card is present). But then secondary TMSCP should be AFTER secondary disk MSCP in the floating address space, right? I tried some more investigation and by pure accident I discovered that the SI controller also responds somehow to 160400. What the hell is that address for? Could this be what makes the CPU unhappy? Does anyone have any clues? Is anyone here familiar with SI MSCP disk controllers? TIA for any help. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Cellular phone: 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA12137 for pups-liszt; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 14:27:04 +1100 (EST) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Tue Dec 1 13:24:21 1998 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (trailing-edge.wdn.com [198.232.144.27]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA12127 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.adfa.edu.AU>; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 14:26:35 +1100 (EST) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.adfa.edu.AU; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 22:24:21 -0500 Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 22:24:21 -0500 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Message-Id: <981130222421.2de00129(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: System Industries MSCP disk controller problem Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > I wonder, is anyone here familiar with System Industries (SI) Q-bus MSCP >controllers for ESDI disks? The VAX I'm working has one. It's quad-height >board with connectors for 4 ESDI drives. I couldn't find a model number or >anything like that, but there is a sticker on one of the chips that says >"SYS IND" on it (that's how I deduced that it's SI). The problem I'm having >is that I have no idea how to configure it. It has two DIP switch packs, >one with 4 switches and one with 10. Originally it was configured to be the >secondary disk MSCP controller at 160334. I want it to be the primary one >at 172150. I tried every reasonable switch combination I could think of, >but no luck. This sounds a lot like the Webster WQESD, which was repackaged and sold by many different folks (Sigma, DSD, Qualogy, American Digital, etc.) If it is a repackaged WQESD, SW9 on the 10-switch pack was originally on, with SW10 and SW5-8 off, to put the CSR at 160334. To set it to be 172150, you put SW10 on, and SW5-9 off. Then again, it might not be a repackaged WQESD, but instead a Dilog or Emulex. Is there a 10-pin header on the card edge? Can you describe the positions and types of "big chips" on the board? >pure accident I discovered that the SI controller also responds somehow to >160400. What the hell is that address for? Could this be what makes the CPU >unhappy? It might be because you've enabled the on-board PDP-11 bootstrap, a very big no-no when used in a Microax system. (This bootstrap effectively tries to jam code by DMA into main memory, and can wreak all sorts of havoc on a Microvax.) Some other switches also set the interrupt priority, and this being off can also confuse some tests and OS's. As to your power-on self-test woes, you're going to have to tell us what's in the system and what slot it lives in, as well as what sort of backplane it's all in. Incidentally, I happen to use a Webster WQESD in my 4.3BSD-Reno machine, and am very happy with it there. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 7 months

2.9BSD/DZ-11 clone screw

by Daniel A. Seagraves

I got my hands on a Aviv DZ-11 clone. 16-line MUX. So, I go about shoving it in the 83. It boots 2.9BSD off a RL02. Shove device in, set CSR and interrupt vector, and fire up BSD. I screwed with the dtab line - With it using dzdma in place of dzou, I can't make the MUX go. The kernel attaches it, but I can't seem to be able to talk to it. So, I switched to dzou. Now, upon boot, I get the message: dz 0 csr 160100 vector 320 no address found for dzou SERIOUS CONFIGURATION ERROR^G^G^G I've tried other vectors and other bus slots, and get no improvements with either method (dzdma or dzou). Any ideas? (Oh, and if you've got another SDZV11, the DIP switches are BACKWARDS of their labels! 1=0 and 0=1. Cute, eh?) I also have a DHV11, but no idea how to tell BSD it's there. All I ever get from it is dh ? csr 160020 vector 370 didn't interrupt I think I need to set the DM address, but have no idea what to set it to. ------- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA28694 for pups-liszt; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 12:11:23 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sat Nov 28 10:56:52 1998 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA28689 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 12:11:09 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id QAA23331 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 16:56:52 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 16:56:52 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199811280056.QAA23331(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: 2.9BSD/DZ-11 clone screw Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> > > I got my hands on a Aviv DZ-11 clone. 16-line MUX. So, I go about... > shoving it in the 83. It boots 2.9BSD off a RL02. Shove device in, > I screwed with the dtab line - With it using dzdma in place of dzou, I can't > make the MUX go. The kernel attaches it, but I can't seem to be able to talk > to it. So, I switched to dzou. Now, upon boot, I get the message: How are you trying to talk to it? If the line is marked as "modem controlled" you will see/hear nothing until there is 'CD' (carrier detect) present. Typically the /dev nodes are "modem controlled" unless you add 0200 (128 dec) to the minor device number. For 2.9 the major device number of the DZ is 21 so /dev/tty00 would be "mknod /dev/tty00 c 21 0" and expect modemcontrol while "mknod /dev/tty00 c 21 128" would be a "hardwired" line w/o modem control. > dz 0 csr 160100 vector 320 no address found for dzou > SERIOUS CONFIGURATION ERROR^G^G^G That's not surprising since there is no such symbol in the DZ driver ;) 'dzdma' is a replacement for the transmit interrupt routine - the xmit interrupt goes to 'dzdma' (IF 'DZ_DMA' is enabled in the kernel config file). 'dzdma' calls 'dzxint' at the end of dzdma's processing. Thus if you change 'dzdma' to anything it should be to 1) a symbol which exists <grin> and 2) 'dzxint'. I think something bad happens if DZ_DMA is enabled but dzxint is called directly - it probably won't work since there are two different 'dzxint' routines (one for use with dzdma and one without and the args are different). So if the symbol 'dzdma' is present in the kernel you probably want to least the "xmit field" in /etc/dtab as 'dzdma'. If 'dzdma' is not present in the kernel then use 'dzxint'. > I've tried other vectors and other bus slots, and get no improvements > with either method (dzdma or dzou). Any ideas? Try remaking the device nodes to indicate no modem control. Or perhaps create a cable that asserts the necessary signals. > I also have a DHV11, but no idea how to tell BSD it's there. > All I ever get from it is > dh ? csr 160020 vector 370 didn't interrupt Quite so. The original 2.9BSD didn't support the DHV or DHU devices. Later on there were drivers created but the original distributions lack (according to the CSRG archive CDs) 'dhv' and 'dhu' support. The closest 2.9 came was the venerable DH/DM. 2.11BSD does have DHV support but the silo handling of those devices is *terrible*. If you have any choice in the matter at all get a DHQ-11 and set it for 'DHU' mode. The DHQ can run in DHV or DHU modes with the latter being far preferable (its behaviour is that of the older DH-11 with regard to silo alarm level selectability). > I think I need to set the DM address, but have no idea what to set it to. Not for a DHV. An older DH/DM you would have needed to but that is one of the differences (and why the DHV isn't compatible with the DH driver) is how modem signals are handled. On a 2.11BSD system there is a single line: dhv ? 160440 310 5 dhvrint dhvxint # dhv terminal mux for the DHV-11. Where the CSR/Vector were set to whatever didn't conflict with something else. Good Luck. Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com

26 years, 7 months

List of licensees

by Warren Toomey

In article by Kelwin Wylie: > I am curious to see who else has a source code license. > I imagine there might be privacy concerns, but if there isn't, > I would like to see the list. > Kelwin I can't see any harm, and it's good to know who you can share stuff with. Here are the names I have. There are obviously more people/organisations with licenses. Warren James A. Capp Greg Lehey Ali Bahrami Oleg Levanidov Pat Barron Yi Li Harald Barth Andrew Lynch Craig Bevans Douglas M. Wells Joseph Bickel James MacKeivitch Stefan Bieschewski Keizo Maeda Robin Birch Masahiro Matsumoto Hartmut Brandt Doug McIntyre Matthias Bruestle Kristen McIntyre W. C. Bulte Kirk McKusick Jozc Capkyn Giegrich Michael Brian Chase Shuji Mochida Atindra Chaturvedi Andreas Muller Peter Chubb Dieter Muller Efton Collins Joseph Myers Peter Collinson Gregory Neil Shapiro Rick Copeland Lyndon Nerenberg Matthew Crosby Peter Nikolaev Zhivkov Donald Cruikshank Ray Nouell Mrian Crzig Lennox Kevin Ogden J. D. Knaebel Joergen Pehrson Carlo Dapor Carl Phillips Eric Delgado Paul Pierce Erick Delios James R. Willing Barry Dobyns Charles Retter John Dodson Bruce Robertson Anthony Duell Chang Sang-Thong Alexander Duerrschnabel Michael Schmitz Kevin Dunlap Steven Schultz Hendrik Dykstra Daniel Seagraves Charles E Owen Michael Shalayeff Eric Fischer Gregg Sigfried Gregor Fismer Barry Silverman Robert G. Van Herick Michael Sokolov David Galloway Chris Steinke Glenn Geers Jason Stevens Edmund Goppelt Mark Thompson Brent Graveland Warren Toomey Arno Griffioen Jennine Townsend John Harvard Pete Turnbull Martin Heller Christopher Vance Michael Homsey Paul Vixie Michael J. Haertel Jason Wells Jay Jaeger Ken Wellsch Martin James Crehan Jim Williams David Jenner John Wilson Neil Johnson Norman Wilson Soren Jorvang Kelwin Wylie Moto Kawasaki Thomas Yanuklis Eugene Kim Thomas Zenker Kern Koh Leendert van Doorn Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA23319 for pups-liszt; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 09:26:59 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Nov 27 08:28:31 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA23313 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 09:26:51 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA13602; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 09:28:31 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199811262228.JAA13602(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Pro/Venix and Y2K To: SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 09:28:31 +1100 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) In-Reply-To: <981126115034.2a2004dc(a)trailing-edge.com> from Tim Shoppa at "Nov 26, 98 11:50:34 am" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Tim Shoppa: > The following exchange recently took place on comp.sys.dec.micro/ > vmsnet.pdp-11/alt.sys.pdp11. In it, I made the guess that PRO Venix > is based on 2.9BSD - does anyone know more details about its heritage? I understand that Venix is a cut-down SysIII in binary-only format. We have SysIII in the archive in source form, if that's of any help. I doubt it will have the device handler for the PRO 380 Time-Of-Year clock. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA23443 for pups-liszt; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 09:56:13 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Nov 27 08:57:56 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA23438 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 09:56:07 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA13789; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 09:57:57 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199811262257.JAA13789(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Pro/Venix and Y2K To: grog(a)lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 09:57:56 +1100 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) In-Reply-To: <19981127092329.U67961(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Nov 27, 98 09:23:29 am" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Greg Lehey: > On Friday, 27 November 1998 at 9:28:31 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote: > > I understand that Venix is a cut-down SysIII in binary-only format. We have > > SysIII in the archive in source form, if that's of any help. > > Interesting. How did we get that? Or is it a 16 bit version? > Greg It's a PDP-11 version donated by Kirk. We also have SysV for the PDP-11, donated by John Holden, but I can't put it in the archive because the SCO license specifically doesn't cover SysV. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA23485 for pups-liszt; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 10:02:15 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Nov 27 09:03:50 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA23480 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 10:02:08 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA13818; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 10:03:50 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199811262303.KAA13818(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: List of licensees To: grog(a)lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 10:03:50 +1100 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) In-Reply-To: <19981127092818.V67961(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Nov 27, 98 09:28:18 am" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Greg Lehey: > There seem to be some obvious omissions, such as Dennis and Tim > Shoppa. I also have the feeling that a number of others should be > there, but I can't put a name to them. I can only give the details of the people for whom I actually have license numbers (both SCO, AT&T and Western Electric). If you _are_ covered by a UNIX source license, and would like access to the archive, then please fax your license to me at +61 6268 8581. I only require the pages with the signatures, the license numbers, and the list of UNIX versions covered. Thanks, Warren

26 years, 7 months

Over 100 Ancient UNIX Licenses

by Warren Toomey

All, I've just received another 5 SCO Ancient UNIX license details in the mail, bringing the total purchased from SCO to 101. I think that's pretty impressive. Just thought you'd like to know. Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id DAA22073 for pups-liszt; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 03:52:43 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Fri Nov 27 02:50:34 1998 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (trailing-edge.wdn.com [198.232.144.27]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id DAA22068 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 03:52:29 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 11:50:34 -0500 Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 11:50:34 -0500 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU Message-Id: <981126115034.2a2004dc(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Pro/Venix and Y2K Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk The following exchange recently took place on comp.sys.dec.micro/ vmsnet.pdp-11/alt.sys.pdp11. In it, I made the guess that PRO Venix is based on 2.9BSD - does anyone know more details about its heritage? Donato B. Masaoy III wrote: > > Came into a Pro 380 and loaded Venix as a means of tyring out Unix. > Noticed that at 2000 it sets itself back to 1970. Is there fix for this? > Should I bother? The PRO 380 Time-Of-Year clock has two modes: 1. BCD mode, where the year is stored in two decimal digits. 2. Binary mode, where the year is stored as at least 7 bits (more likely 8 bits - it's been a couple of months since the changes were implemented the fix in RT-11's PI.SYS, PIX.SYS, and SETUP.SAV to make it Y2K compliant.) When in BCD mode, 31-Dec-99 rolls over into 1-Jan-00, and the clock keeps accurately ticking. Venix evidently chokes on this and doesn't interpret "00" as "2000". As Unix is incapable of representing times internally outside the range 1970-2038, the obvious fix is to interpret BCD years in the range 70-99 as being in the 1900's, and the BCD years in the range 00-38 as in the 2000's. This is, for example, how BSD2.11 interprets the two-digit 11/93 or 11/94 clock year. Of course, finding the sources to Pro 380 Venix to implement the changes may be difficult. The PUPS archive has a version of 2.9BSD patches for the Pro, and if you're lucky Venix may be close enough that you can use the Pro-specific clock sources to patch your kernel binary. In the 2.9BSD Pro patches, the clock code is in "/sys-dev/prostuff.c", and begins: /* These two fuctions handle the pro 300's clock * This code is defunct at the end of the century. * Will Unix still be here then?? */ -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id FAA22435 for pups-liszt; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 05:49:47 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Fri Nov 27 04:48:45 1998 Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (mgate.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA22430 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 05:49:37 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from djenner(a)halcyon.com) Received: from halcyon.com (66-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net [206.63.251.66]) by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA03033; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 10:48:52 -0800 Message-ID: <365DA28D.5C541C8C(a)halcyon.com> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 10:48:45 -0800 From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Reply-To: djenner(a)halcyon.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> CC: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU Subject: Re: Pro/Venix and Y2K References: <981126115034.2a2004dc(a)trailing-edge.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk There probably isn't much BSD lineage in Version 1 of Venix, but there is some in Version 2. Probably mostly in the form of the usual add-ons like VI. There's some confusion about this (at least in my mind), so any authoritative info would be interesting. First of all there's: "Venix/Pro" from Venturecom, which is definitely of AT&T lineage, probably V7/SysIII for V1 of Venix/Pro, and perhaps a bit of BSD stuff mixed in for V2 of Venix/Pro. This is what you find at Internet archives. Then there's: "Pro/Venix" from DEC, which is a repackaging of Venix/Pro. Again, there are Versions 1 and 2 of this. I have V1 and docs for V2, but no disks for V2. I'd really like to find a copy of the distribution of DEC Pro/Venix V2, if it's legal (and having the Ancient Unix license would seem to make it OK for at least the AT&T side). For Pro/Venix, V2, the manual entry for "clock(7) - time-of-day clock" is: /dev/clock refers to a time-of-day, battery-backed-up clock. This device node is provided primarily for the benefit of the date com- mand, which will read from it given the -l flag (usually done on system start-up), and write to it if a new date is set. ... struct clkbuf { int clk_sec; /* second (0-59) */ int clk_min; /* minute (0-59) */ int clk_hour; /* hour (0-23) */ int clk_mday; /* day of month (1-31) */ int clk_mon; /* month (0-11) */ int clk_year; /* year (00-99) */ int clk_wday; /* day of the week (Sunday = 0) */ int clk_yday; /* day of the year (0-365) */ int clk_dst; /* non-zero if daylight savings applies */ }; So, it looks bad at least from the internal representation of the year. Since I don't have this version, I can't comment on exactly what happens. Dave Tim Shoppa wrote: > > The following exchange recently took place on comp.sys.dec.micro/ > vmsnet.pdp-11/alt.sys.pdp11. In it, I made the guess that PRO Venix > is based on 2.9BSD - does anyone know more details about its heritage? > > Donato B. Masaoy III wrote: > > > > Came into a Pro 380 and loaded Venix as a means of tyring out Unix. > > Noticed that at 2000 it sets itself back to 1970. Is there fix for this? > > Should I bother? > > The PRO 380 Time-Of-Year clock has two modes: > > 1. BCD mode, where the year is stored in two decimal digits. > 2. Binary mode, where the year is stored as at least 7 bits (more > likely 8 bits - it's been a couple of months since the changes > were implemented the fix in RT-11's PI.SYS, PIX.SYS, and > SETUP.SAV to make it Y2K compliant.) > > When in BCD mode, 31-Dec-99 rolls over into 1-Jan-00, and the > clock keeps accurately ticking. Venix evidently chokes on this > and doesn't interpret "00" as "2000". > > As Unix is incapable of representing times internally outside > the range 1970-2038, the obvious fix is to interpret BCD years > in the range 70-99 as being in the 1900's, and the BCD years > in the range 00-38 as in the 2000's. This is, for example, > how BSD2.11 interprets the two-digit 11/93 or 11/94 clock year. > > Of course, finding the sources to Pro 380 Venix to implement > the changes may be difficult. The PUPS archive has a version of 2.9BSD > patches for the Pro, and if you're lucky Venix may be close > enough that you can use the Pro-specific clock sources to patch > your kernel binary. In the 2.9BSD Pro patches, the clock > code is in "/sys-dev/prostuff.c", and begins: > > /* These two fuctions handle the pro 300's clock > * This code is defunct at the end of the century. > * Will Unix still be here then?? > */ > > -- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA22497 for pups-liszt; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 06:05:10 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> Fri Nov 27 05:04:36 1998 Received: from math.uwaterloo.ca (kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.140.144]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA22489 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 06:05:00 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca) Received: (from kcwellsc@localhost) by math.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA22036; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 14:04:36 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> Message-Id: <199811261904.OAA22036(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> Subject: Re: Pro/Venix and Y2K To: SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 14:04:36 -0500 (EST) Cc: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU In-Reply-To: <981126115034.2a2004dc(a)trailing-edge.com> from "Tim Shoppa" at Nov 26, 98 11:50:34 am Organization: University of Waterloo, Math Faculty Computing Facility (Alumni) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi Tim, | The following exchange recently took place on comp.sys.dec.micro/ | vmsnet.pdp-11/alt.sys.pdp11. In it, I made the guess that PRO Venix | is based on 2.9BSD - does anyone know more details about its heritage? There are several folks with vastly better knowledge on this than I, but should they not speak up, I'll mumble on what little I know. Venix is an outgrowth of V6 UNIX I believe - from my fadding memory of the little I played with it, the file system is definitely V6 based (with the notion of "huge" files, i.e. the index pointers would switch from direct to indirect, while I believe V7 took a much better approach). The 2BSD branch I believe took a much later fork, V7 or later? It also played a more central role than Venix I expect, contributing a goodly amount of later PDP-11/UNIX based things that others borrowed (e.g. Ultrix 3 from DEC took csh and vi among other goodies). | As Unix is incapable of representing times internally outside | the range 1970-2038, the obvious fix is to interpret BCD years | in the range 70-99 as being in the 1900's, and the BCD years | in the range 00-38 as in the 2000's. This is, for example, | how BSD2.11 interprets the two-digit 11/93 or 11/94 clock year. Gee, I didn't think there was one "UNIX" in the world 8-) How big are your integers? Do you use signed or unsigned values for the epoch since Jan 1 1970? It seems hard to believe anything in the UNIX world of today has this limitation. I'll agree there is likely just the one "RT-11" though 8-) -- Ken Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA22536 for pups-liszt; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 06:17:19 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Fri Nov 27 05:15:17 1998 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (trailing-edge.wdn.com [198.232.144.27]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id GAA22531 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 06:17:10 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 14:15:17 -0500 Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 14:15:17 -0500 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU Message-Id: <981126141517.2a2003cb(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: Pro/Venix and Y2K Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >There's some confusion about this (at least in my mind), so any >authoritative info would be interesting. I agree - and would love more definitive information (Or, even better, the sources to Pro/Venix.) I've learned an amazing amount about segments of the Unix lineage just from the comments in the past week, but the gaps in my knowledge still loom large! It's entirely possible that Pro/Venix uses the Pro clock in BCD mode - it looked to me that the 2.9BSD version does it in binary mode. >struct clkbuf { > int clk_sec; /* second (0-59) */ > int clk_min; /* minute (0-59) */ > int clk_hour; /* hour (0-23) */ > int clk_mday; /* day of month (1-31) */ > int clk_mon; /* month (0-11) */ > int clk_year; /* year (00-99) */ > int clk_wday; /* day of the week (Sunday = 0) */ > int clk_yday; /* day of the year (0-365) */ > int clk_dst; /* non-zero if daylight savings applies */ >}; > >So, it looks bad at least from the internal representation of the >year. It depends on what you want to call "bad". It's quite possible to build a Y2K compliant system out of non-Y2K compliant components! 2.11BSD's date(1) was patched for Y2K in such a way that "00" in the two-digit year would be interpreted as the year 2000. (See patch #327 for the details.) Would similar fixes for more historic Unices be useful to the general folk here? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA22638 for pups-liszt; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 06:50:39 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Fri Nov 27 05:49:47 1998 Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (mgate.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA22633 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 06:50:31 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from djenner(a)halcyon.com) Received: from halcyon.com (66-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net [206.63.251.66]) by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA03155; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 11:49:55 -0800 Message-ID: <365DB0DB.CD18A664(a)halcyon.com> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 11:49:47 -0800 From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Reply-To: djenner(a)halcyon.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> CC: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU Subject: Re: Pro/Venix and Y2K References: <981126141517.2a2003cb(a)trailing-edge.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk It's "bad" in the sense that the evidence available (empirical, and sparse code) suggests that the software (and probably the hardware) is working with only two-digit years. You could, of course, try to remedy the Y2K problem by properly handling the clock. But the evidence suggests that the problem may be spread over lots of code. As you say, it would be nice to have the Pro/Venix code (as opposed to the Venix/Pro code). DEC's Pro/Venix is more flexible than Venturecom's Venix/Pro. You can write and link custom device drivers with the kernel in Pro/Venix. There is some hope you could actually "fix" /dev/clock, but this probably isn't enough to solve the whole Y2K problem. Again, any knowledge about the whereabouts of even the binary distribution disks of DEC's V2 Pro/Venix would be great. Dave Tim Shoppa wrote: > > >There's some confusion about this (at least in my mind), so any > >authoritative info would be interesting. > > I agree - and would love more definitive information (Or, even > better, the sources to Pro/Venix.) I've > learned an amazing amount about segments of the Unix lineage > just from the comments in the past week, but the gaps in > my knowledge still loom large! > > It's entirely possible that Pro/Venix uses the Pro > clock in BCD mode - it looked to me that the 2.9BSD version > does it in binary mode. > > >struct clkbuf { > > int clk_sec; /* second (0-59) */ > > int clk_min; /* minute (0-59) */ > > int clk_hour; /* hour (0-23) */ > > int clk_mday; /* day of month (1-31) */ > > int clk_mon; /* month (0-11) */ > > int clk_year; /* year (00-99) */ > > int clk_wday; /* day of the week (Sunday = 0) */ > > int clk_yday; /* day of the year (0-365) */ > > int clk_dst; /* non-zero if daylight savings applies */ > >}; > > > >So, it looks bad at least from the internal representation of the > >year. > > It depends on what you want to call "bad". It's quite possible > to build a Y2K compliant system out of non-Y2K compliant > components! > > 2.11BSD's date(1) was patched for Y2K in such a way that "00" in > the two-digit year would be interpreted as the year 2000. (See > patch #327 for the details.) > > Would similar fixes for more historic Unices be useful to the general > folk here? > > -- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 7 months

Re: What *was* the Tahoe?

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Wortner, Frank (RSCH) <Frank_Wortner(a)ml.com> writes to me: > P.S. You might want to forward this to the PUPS list, since I'm no longer > an active member (emal address changes, etc.) Doing so. Forwarded message: >From Frank_Wortner(a)ml.com Wed Nov 25 11:31 EST 1998 Return-Path: <Frank_Wortner(a)ml.com> >From "Wortner, Frank Thu Nov 26 02:27:07 1998 Received: from hudutilgw.ml.com by k2.cwru.edu (8.6.12/SMI-SVR4) id LAA16359; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:31:34 -0500 Received: from mail1.ml.com ([199.201.57.137]) by hudutilgw.ml.com (8.9.1/8.9.1/MLgwo-4.02) with ESMTP id LAA25304 for <mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu>; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:27:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from ewfd12.exchange.ml.com (ewfd12.exchange.ml.com [146.125.111.6]) by mail1.ml.com (8.9.1/8.9.1/MLml5-4.03b) with ESMTP id LAA00612 for <mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu>; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:27:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by EWFD12 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id <XJFJ99ZK>; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:27:13 -0500 Message-ID: <B27EB33BAB29D2119ABF0001FA7EF28911B0D4@EWFD04> From: "Wortner, Frank (RSCH)" <Frank_Wortner(a)ml.com> To: "'mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu'" <mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu> Subject: Re: What *was* the Tahoe? Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:27:07 -0500 This one I know the answer to. "Tahoe" was the internal name for a computer called the "Compter Consoles Inc. 632." (At least that's what I recall." The machine itself was a light grey cube about the size of a VAX 750 CPU. The cube housed the CPU, the disk drives (Fujitsu "Super Eagles" I think) and an auto-loading tape drive. If I recall correctly, the manufacturer was located in Rochester, New York, USA. I used to sys admin one of these beasts -- a *long* time ago. They were pretty durable: mine not only survived an air condioner failure during which the temperature rose to more than 100 degrees Fahrenheit, it actually kept on working without a break for several hours! It was a good box, an attempt at a "VAX-killer," but it never really managed to grab a substantial base from DEC's boxes. Frank P.S. You might want to forward this to the PUPS list, since I'm no longer an active member (emal address changes, etc.)

26 years, 7 months

Re: Net2 Status: likely outcome

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes: > Therefore, once SCO reads through the legal documents (which they now > own), I'd be pretty sure that they will still treat Net/2 as > contaminated, and people will need a 32V license in some form in order to > legally acquire a copy of the Net/2 tape. Then until/unless Warren tells me otherwise, I'll keep Net/2 together with the real 4BSD distributions in Distributions/4bsd/net2, readable by the members of the pupsarc group only. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA15311 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 17:22:17 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)

26 years, 7 months

4BSD distributions

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Dear PUPS/TUHS members, All 4BSD distributions formerly in my home directory on minnie are now in the Distributions/4bsd directory. This directory is now owned by me, and from now on I will be maintaining PUPS's 4BSD collection. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id EAA17141 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 04:48:09 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)

26 years, 7 months

Re: Net/2: still at ftp.uu.net

by Warren Toomey

In article by J. Joseph Max Katz: > They may have the sources rm'd that aren't supposed to be there. As far as I can tell (at a quick glance), the distribution is intact. I'm just comparing cksums between the Net/2 on the CSRG CD#2 and from the ftp site. I'm only doing sys/kern and sys/ufs. Absolutely no difference. diff on all file pairs gives no output. cksum gives the same checksums for each file pair (CD vs ftp). Hmm..... Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA14564 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:24:57 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Nov 25 12:20:41 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA14559 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:24:49 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA06820; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:20:41 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199811250220.NAA06820(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Net/2: still at ftp.uu.net To: simul8(a)simul8.demon.co.uk (James Lothian) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:20:41 +1100 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) In-Reply-To: <01BE1817.1E6F2EF0@SONAR> from James Lothian at "Nov 25, 98 01:58:33 am" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by James Lothian: > In the UK, sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk has a directory > /computing/systems/unix/4.3bsd-net2, which > seems to be all the unencumbered bits of net/2. > James It appears that several files from sys/kern and sys/ufs have been removed. All files still in these directories are intact. I haven't examined any other directories. They're in a safer legal position. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA15323 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 17:22:44 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au)

26 years, 7 months

4.3BSD Rev 2 Foreign

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Dear PUPS/TUHS members, I have analyzed Rick's 4.3BSD Rev 2 Foreign images in Distributions/4bsd/43rev2 and converted them into the standard BSD release format used by me as the maintainer of 4.3BSD. I didn't change the contents of any files, I just gave the directory and all files their systematic names (being systematic and punctual in packaging and naming is essential to maintaining an archive of many different versions of software). I also uncompressed and recompressed all files so that the names stored inside the gzip headers are correct. Finally, I have created a tar tvf listing for every tarball. The result is in /usr/home/msokolov/43rev2_f. Warren, please put this into the main PUPS archive. Note, though, that usr.tar (file 4) is cut short. I have indicated this in the BROKEN.TXT file. Also this is a "foreign" tape, meaning that it has a slightly crippled crypt(3) and missing crypt(1). Given that this tape is both a little broken and "foreign", CWRU's 4.3BSD tape images in /usr/home/msokolov/43.vax may be a better choice for some people. They have normal crypt(3) and crypt(1) and have absolutely no defects. (That's the advantage of 1600 BPI over 6250 BPI. Rick seems to be having a really hard time reading 6250 BPI 4.3 and 4.3-Tahoe tapes, while CWRU's 1600 BPI 4.3BSD tapes read fine on the first attempt.) Rick's ones are Rev 2, though, and CWRU's are not. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id VAA10697 for pups-liszt; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 21:46:42 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Alan F R Bain <A.F.R.Bain(a)dpmms.cam.ac.uk> Tue Nov 24 20:46:15 1998 Received: from moose.dpmms.cam.ac.uk (exim(a)moose.dpmms.cam.ac.uk [131.111.24.35]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA10692 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 21:46:27 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from a.f.r.bain(a)dpmms.cam.ac.uk) Received: from localhost.cam.ac.uk ([127.0.0.1] helo=moose.dpmms.cam.ac.uk ident=afrb2) by moose.dpmms.cam.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.03 #1) id 0ziFz6-0001EI-00 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 10:46:16 +0000 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Version 7 for the PERQ Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 10:46:15 +0000 From: Alan F R Bain <A.F.R.Bain(a)dpmms.cam.ac.uk> Message-Id: <E0ziFz6-0001EI-00(a)moose.dpmms.cam.ac.uk> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk A question which I have been meaning to ask for a while and which I was reminded of by the discussion of the AMD 2900 bit slice processors was a version of AT&T V7 unix for the ICL PERQ computer. This was so similar to the original that the manual was an original AT&T one with instructions on which pages to pull out and throw away and some new ones to insert. [basically all PDP11 hardware specific ones go; and there are some new bits such as chatter as simple serial comms program]. I have several binary only distributions of this -- it was called PNX. What I'd be really interested to know is how it evolved from V7; in particular the new version of `m40.s'. In particular it seems to run on top of a rather weird instruction set which isn't very like that of the PDP11 (which would have seemed like an obvious choice at first sight for a soft-microcodeable machine). The use of as and cc with options to write out assembler is considered as `not a user option' in the manual; although it still works. I have to say that in general the port seems quite bad and in need of lots of work to make it correctly functional. However it's nice to have V7 readily available on a graphics workstation with 1Mb RAM and 768x1024 display :-) I'd be very interested to find out more of the source to PNX or especially the microcode Alan Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id EAA12215 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 04:53:20 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Kirk McKusick <mckusick(a)mckusick.com> Wed Nov 25 02:19:01 1998 Received: from knecht.Sendmail.ORG (knecht.sendmail.org [209.31.233.160]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA12210 for <PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 04:53:10 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from mckusick(a)flamingo.McKusick.COM) Received: from flamingo.McKusick.COM (root(a)flamingo.mckusick.com [209.31.233.178]) by knecht.Sendmail.ORG (8.9.2.Alpha2/8.9.2.Alpha2) with ESMTP id JAA08533; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:53:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from flamingo.McKusick.COM (mckusick@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by flamingo.McKusick.COM (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA07519; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:19:01 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199811241619.IAA07519(a)flamingo.McKusick.COM> To: SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com Subject: Re: Reno (was Re: What *was* the Tahoe?) cc: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 23 Nov 1998 11:05:52 EST." <981123110552.2a200243(a)trailing-edge.com> Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:19:01 -0800 From: Kirk McKusick <mckusick(a)mckusick.com> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk From: SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 11:05:52 -0500 To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Reno (was Re: What *was* the Tahoe?) Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au >Tahoe was the internal "code" name that Computer Consoles Inc used >for their Power 6/32 processor. That's useful. The Tahoe-specific documentation also mentions the Harris HCX-7, the Unisys 7000/40, and ICL Clan 7 - were these in any way compatible with the Tahoe, or just "other" ports? And where does "Reno" come from, while we're at it? Tim. (shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com) The 4.3-Reno distribution was named after the city of that name in Nevada. We picked that name because the 4.3-Reno distribution was an interim release on the way to 4.4BSD and hence was not as fully polished or tested as our production releases. The idea was to remind recipients that it was more of a "gamble" to run Reno than our production releases. Kirk McKusick Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA13346 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:03:30 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Nov 25 09:05:02 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA13341 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:03:22 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA05334 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:05:03 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199811242305.KAA05334(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Net2 Status: likely outcome To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:05:02 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I haven't heard back from SCO re the Net/2 status, but given that USL was sold to Novell & then to SCO, and they have copies of all the legal documents, I'm sure that SCO will quickly find out the details of the USL vs UCB settlement. Kirk has told me that the settlement explicitly stated that a set of files from Net/2 was not to be distributed, and that this set of files was not to be revealed: this was done to prevent a subset of Net/2 from being freely redistributed. CSRG made changes to about 70 files and deleted three files outright. Kirk is legally unable to reveal the list of affected files in Net/2. I've just had a poke around the SCCS files on CD#4 on the CSRG CD set. Several of the SCCS comments for the kernel files have the word USL in them: add USL's copyright notice changes for 4.4BSD-Lite requested by USL There's also a list of binary-only files in BSD/386 1.1 at http://www.bsdi.com/info/lawsuit/940208.update I assume, therefore, that it wouldn't be too hard to find out the set of files in Net/2 affected by the settlement. Therefore, once SCO reads through the legal documents (which they now own), I'd be pretty sure that they will still treat Net/2 as contaminated, and people will need a 32V license in some form in order to legally acquire a copy of the Net/2 tape. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA13502 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:54:36 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Nov 25 09:56:09 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA13497 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:54:29 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA05513 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:56:10 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199811242356.KAA05513(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Also: PUPS digest mail list To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:56:09 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I should also say that there's a digest form of the PUPS/TUHS mail list which comes out twice weekly. If you'd rather be on that list, please send me some email. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA13797 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:58:43 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Nov 25 11:00:17 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA13790 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:58:36 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA05738 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:00:17 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199811250100.MAA05738(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Net/2: still at ftp.uu.net To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:00:17 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Just FYI, net/2 afficionados might care to look around in ftp://ftp.uu.net/systems/unix/bsd-sources I assume that they are in a legally dubious situation. Warren

26 years, 7 months

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