TUHS

tuhs@tuhs.org

6 participants
6532 discussions

by Mike Jenkins

On Tue, 26 Jan 1999 "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> wrote: > I maintain the opposite. VMS _was_ (past tense) the driver of > VAXEN but that was due to Ken "UNIX is Snake Oil" Olsen. Since DEC I got a whole different perspective on that Snake Oil thing after reading "A Quarter Century of UNIX" by Peter Salus. According to Armando Stettner (DEC Ultrix Architect) Ken Olsen meant, "Much the way people were peddling snake oil a century ago, now every vendor is hyping Unix as a cure for everything". He was only making a analogy but the statement was "taken out of context". Anyway, the book has been enjoyable. Mike P.S. Where is Armando now? Is he still doing Unix stuff? Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA05079 for pups-liszt; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:11:08 +1100 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Thu Jan 28 09:10:55 1999 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA05073 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:10:59 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA15602; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:40:56 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id JAA04001; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:40:55 +1030 (CST) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:40:55 +1030 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Cc: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: UNIX robustness Message-ID: <19990128094055.E66239(a)freebie.lemis.com> References: <199901270512.VAA15671(a)moe.2bsd.com> <36AF136E.8FB4C233(a)halcyon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <36AF136E.8FB4C233(a)halcyon.com>; from David C. Jenner on Wed, Jan 27, 1999 at 05:23:58AM -0800 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Wednesday, 27 January 1999 at 5:23:58 -0800, David C. Jenner wrote: > "Steven M. Schultz" wrote: >> >> At least it's a different thread... ;-) >> >> I had a UNIX system in my house that ran (and was working hard >> the whole time) for over 2 years before pity was taken on it >> and a beefier replacement system installed. The original system >> was a 386/33 serving as a rather busy secondary nameserver and was >> never touched/rebooted/powercycled for 2+ years. As time went on the >> load increased and it became apparent the system was overloaded (and >> paging excessively) so a P5/90 with more memory was installed. A >> couple months after that the disk died ;-) > > I had (still have) a PDP-11/23+ that ran (still runs) 2.9BSD (with an > honest-to-goodness AT&T binary license) that was my UUCP link to the > net from 1989-1993. At one stretch, it ran almost two years before a > power failure finally got it. > > It was unusual to go that long without a power failure, so the limiting > factor was clearly the power and not the hardware or software. The > system has a watchdog timer, so when there was a problem the system would > usually automatically reboot, unless there was a serious hardware problem. > Reboots were fairly rare and usually a power problem, so it would be hard > for me to pinpoint the cause of non-power-instigated reboots. I think you'd have to consider a reboot to be a failure. Steveen could say better than I, but I'd expect 2.9BSD to have told you why it died. 2.11BSD certainly does. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA05599 for pups-liszt; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:10:03 +1100 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu Jan 28 10:07:22 1999 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA05586 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:09:54 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id QAA27431; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:07:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:07:22 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199901280007.QAA27431(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: djenner(a)halcyon.com, grog(a)lemis.com Subject: Re: UNIX robustness Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> > > I think you'd have to consider a reboot to be a failure. Steveen > could say better than I, but I'd expect 2.9BSD to have told you why it > died. 2.11BSD certainly does. Well, it tries its darndest to do so. If the system gets its knickers sufficiently twisted I've seen it hang part way thru printing the panic message. 'course then there are the self inflicted crashes where an errant driver scribbles all over memory, in which case you may not get a meaningful indication of what went wrong ;) Steven Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA05647 for pups-liszt; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:12:21 +1100 (EST) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Thu Jan 28 10:11:56 1999 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA05642 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:12:12 +1100 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA03086; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 01:11:58 +0100 Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 01:11:56 +0100 (MET) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: emanuel stiebler <emu(a)ecubics.com> cc: Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.eu.org>, PDP11 UNIX Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: 4.4BSD In-Reply-To: <19990127174150.AAA5105@p2350> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.990128011036.2335D-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > > What's that? When I want to edit text I want an editor, not an vi-itor > > or an emacsitor, those aren't even words! ED is the standard editor. :) > > SURE !!! > I think most people simply forget, that emacs doesn't work so well on a > line printer console ;-)) I have only one things to say to you guys; TECO. (And besides, EMACS is just a bunch of macros for TECO, GNU-EMACS don't even count... ;-) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA07028 for pups-liszt; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 14:25:08 +1100 (EST) >From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Thu Jan 28 13:24:31 1999 Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (mgate.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA07018 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 14:24:59 +1100 (EST) Received: from halcyon.com (66-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net [206.63.251.66]) by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA21948 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 19:24:35 -0800 Message-ID: <36AFD86F.A25AFE2A(a)halcyon.com> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 19:24:31 -0800 From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Reply-To: djenner(a)halcyon.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: UNIX robustness References: <199901270512.VAA15671(a)moe.2bsd.com> <36AF136E.8FB4C233(a)halcyon.com> <19990128094055.E66239(a)freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Yes, and it was almost 2 years between reboots. Otherwise, they were rather rare, and I can't remember why. I have all the console logs around somewhere under a pile, and if/when I uncover them, I'll look through them to see what happened. Maybe I'll suddenly report it here in 6 months--after my next reboot, err, cleanup. Dave Greg Lehey wrote: > > > I think you'd have to consider a reboot to be a failure. Steveen > could say better than I, but I'd expect 2.9BSD to have told you why it > died. 2.11BSD certainly does. > > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers > finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id TAA09604 for pups-liszt; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 19:05:42 +1100 (EST) >From Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com> Thu Jan 28 18:05:26 1999 Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA09599 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 19:05:32 +1100 (EST) Received: from world.std.com [world-f.std.com [199.172.62.5]] by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id DAA28920; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 03:05:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA14700; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:05:27 -0800 Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:05:26 -0800 (PDT) From: Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD In-Reply-To: <199901260840.DAA03265(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Message-Id: <Pine.SGI.3.95.990127235939.2520C-100000(a)world.std.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote: > > I frankly consider this to be silly, somewhat presumptious, and, for myself, > > at least, a waste of time. But if it's something _you_ want to do, I > > encourage you to do it, I suppose. > > You may believe whatever you want, but I will only remark that several very > prominent VAX hardware gurus (some of them on this list) support my work very > eagerly. Whatever you or the NetBSD gang may believe, "Death to the murderous NetBSD grandparents and the atrocities they've commited against the true Unix." -- Bee S. D'argic -brian. --- Brian "JARAI" Chase | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ | VAXZilla LIVES!!! Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id EAA11549 for pups-liszt; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 04:50:45 +1100 (EST) >From "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net> Fri Jan 29 03:54:42 1999 Received: from coffee.corliss.net (erin(a)coffee.gta-tech.com.121.7.12.in-addr.arpa [12.7.121.245] (may be forged)) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA11544 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 04:50:37 +1100 (EST) Received: from localhost (erin@localhost) by coffee.corliss.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA21996 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:54:42 -0800 Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:54:42 -0800 (PST) From: "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.3.95.990127235939.2520C-100000(a)world.std.com> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990128095053.21935A-100000(a)coffee.corliss.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, Brian D Chase wrote: > "Death to the murderous NetBSD grandparents and the atrocities they've > commited against the true Unix." -- Bee S. D'argic Yeah, what kind of sadistic, malicious bastards would create a *free* version of unix, then port it to nearly every platform imaginable!!?!? What could have been going through their twisted minds? ---------------------------------------------------------- "...and an eternity, my friend, is a long f*cking time..."

26 years, 5 months

UNIX robustness

by norman＠nose.cita.utoronto.ca

Allison Parent is probably correct that Ultrix doesn't have as impressive a record of robustness as VMS, but there are certainly application-specific cases where the system did pretty well. The collection of MicroVAX II parts I have at home mostly used to be the University of Toronto's backbone IP routers, which ran an early Ultrix (I forget if it was 2.0 or 3.0). Evidently most of these systems just ran and ran and ran, stopping only for hardware failures. (Probably mostly broken RD53 disks--most of the disks that came in the parts collection were broken in one way or another.) Although I am not a first-hand witness, the claim is that some of these systems had uptimes as long as five years when they were finally decommissioned in 1990 or 1991. Anyone else got any my-UNIX-ran-longer-than-yours stories? Norman Wilson Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA00311 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:38:09 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jan 27 14:38:23 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA00306 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:38:03 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA01836; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:38:23 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901270438.PAA01836(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: UNIX robustness In-Reply-To: <199901270434.PAA00279(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> from "norman(a)nose.cita.utoronto.ca" at "Jan 26, 1999 11:32:49 pm" To: norman(a)nose.cita.utoronto.ca Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:38:23 +1100 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by norman(a)nose.cita.utoronto.ca: > Anyone else got any my-UNIX-ran-longer-than-yours stories? > Norman Wilson Only <200 days here for a PC-based system, usually brought down by power failure. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA00561 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:13:17 +1100 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Jan 27 15:12:57 1999 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA00553 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:13:07 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id VAA15671 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:12:57 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:12:57 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199901270512.VAA15671(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: UNIX robustness Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk At least it's a different thread... ;-) I had a UNIX system in my house that ran (and was working hard the whole time) for over 2 years before pity was taken on it and a beefier replacement system installed. The original system was a 386/33 serving as a rather busy secondary nameserver and was never touched/rebooted/powercycled for 2+ years. As time went on the load increased and it became apparent the system was overloaded (and paging excessively) so a P5/90 with more memory was installed. A couple months after that the disk died ;-) Steven Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA00604 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:15:26 +1100 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Jan 27 15:15:08 1999 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA00597 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:15:17 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id VAA15701 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:15:08 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:15:08 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199901270515.VAA15701(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Addendum to Unix robustness Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - I've personally seen/run a PDP-11/44 under 2.11BSD for 1 year without reboooting. Then the power went out and spoiled the streak. Started over and was a couple months into the new uptime and the RA81 died. Sigh. Steven Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id AAA02469 for pups-liszt; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:26:08 +1100 (EST) >From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Wed Jan 27 23:23:58 1999 Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (mgate.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA02464 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:25:59 +1100 (EST) Received: from halcyon.com (66-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net [206.63.251.66]) by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA19391 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 05:25:37 -0800 Message-ID: <36AF136E.8FB4C233(a)halcyon.com> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 05:23:58 -0800 From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Reply-To: djenner(a)halcyon.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: UNIX robustness References: <199901270512.VAA15671(a)moe.2bsd.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk I had (still have) a PDP-11/23+ that ran (still runs) 2.9BSD (with an honest-to-goodness AT&T binary license) that was my UUCP link to the net from 1989-1993. At one stretch, it ran almost two years before a power failure finally got it. It was unusual to go that long without a power failure, so the limiting factor was clearly the power and not the hardware or software. The system has a watchdog timer, so when there was a problem the system would usually automatically reboot, unless there was a serious hardware problem. Reboots were fairly rare and usually a power problem, so it would be hard for me to pinpoint the cause of non-power-instigated reboots. Dave "Steven M. Schultz" wrote: > > At least it's a different thread... ;-) > > I had a UNIX system in my house that ran (and was working hard > the whole time) for over 2 years before pity was taken on it > and a beefier replacement system installed. The original system > was a 386/33 serving as a rather busy secondary nameserver and was > never touched/rebooted/powercycled for 2+ years. As time went on the > load increased and it became apparent the system was overloaded (and > paging excessively) so a P5/90 with more memory was installed. A > couple months after that the disk died ;-) > > Steven Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id CAA02732 for pups-liszt; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 02:15:08 +1100 (EST) >From Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> Thu Jan 28 01:14:30 1999 Received: from math.uwaterloo.ca (kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.140.144]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA02724 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 02:14:58 +1100 (EST) Received: (from kcwellsc@localhost) by math.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA30920; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:14:30 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> Message-Id: <199901271514.KAA30920(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> Subject: Re: UNIX V6 Enhancements/Games To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:14:30 -0500 (EST) Cc: agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199901262238.JAA05749(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> from "Warren Toomey" at Jan 27, 99 09:38:32 am Organization: University of Waterloo, Math Faculty Computing Facility (Alumni) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Alas I don't know the precise details, but I do remember that the University of Waterloo had an explicit license (seperate from the UNIX one) just for the *real* troff code. When I say "real" I mean the code that drove a real typesetting device etc. (in PDP-11 assembler I think). We had a highly modified copy in use for more than a decade I think, driving successive generations of new typeset quality engines. I can check with the fellow that really knows all this history and details if someone is interested. -- Ken | In article by alejandro gonzalez: | > | > Reading the Unix Summary, I have noticed that some packages are | > distributed as Enhancements: Like TROFF, or some of the Games, and not in | > the orginial distribution | > | > The Unix System the comes with the tapes does not come with Man, Troff, | > etc.. Is any of this extra stuff in the Pups Archive? If so, Where? | > | > Alex | | All we have are the tapes as donated to us by Dennis Ritchie and Ken | Wellsch. I don't know if a copy of the enhancements still exist. However, | they may have been part of PWB UNIX, which was around at the same time as | Research UNIX. Have a look in the Distributions/usdl section for PWB UNIX. | | Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id EAA03183 for pups-liszt; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 04:23:01 +1100 (EST) >From Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.eu.org> Thu Jan 28 03:21:11 1999 Received: from spektr.eu.org (spektr.ludvika.se [194.18.168.68]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA03175 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 04:22:52 +1100 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by spektr.eu.org (8.9.2/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA25728 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 18:21:11 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 18:21:11 +0100 (CET) From: Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.eu.org> To: PDP11 UNIX Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.05.9901271816460.25417-100000(a)spektr.eu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Thor Lancelot Simon < tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote: >...or vi versus Emacs. What's that? When I want to edit text I want an editor, not an vi-itor or an emacsitor, those aren't even words! ED is the standard editor. :) -- Jorgen Pehrson (HP 9000/380, VAX2000, DECstation 5000/200 (NetBSD 1.3)) jp(a)spektr.eu.org (PDP11/73, PDP11/83, PDP11/83 (2.11BSD)), Intergraph 200 spektr.eu.org/~jp/ MicroVAX 3100 (NetBSD 1.3), VAXstation 4000/90 (VAX/VMS) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id EAA03270 for pups-liszt; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 04:42:12 +1100 (EST) >From "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> Thu Jan 28 03:41:15 1999 Received: from biz1.mailsrvcs.net (biz1.gte.net [207.115.153.50]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA03265 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 04:42:04 +1100 (EST) Received: from p2350 ([208.254.191.195]) by biz1.mailsrvcs.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-40549L5000S0) with ESMTP id AAA5105; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:41:58 -0600 From: "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> To: "Jorgen Pehrson" <jp(a)spektr.eu.org>, "PDP11 UNIX Preservation Society" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:41:15 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19990127174150.AAA5105@p2350> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi Jorgen, ---------- > From: Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.eu.org> > To: PDP11 UNIX Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> > Subject: Re: 4.4BSD > Date: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 10:21 AM > What's that? When I want to edit text I want an editor, not an vi-itor > or an emacsitor, those aren't even words! ED is the standard editor. :) SURE !!! I think most people simply forget, that emacs doesn't work so well on a line printer console ;-)) cheers, emanuel

26 years, 5 months

Re: 4.4BSD

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Eventually I will support almost every VAX ever made, just like Ultrix. The <is no reason why it can't be done. If Ultrix, a close 4.3BSD derivative, co <do this, so can 4.3BSD-* itself. Then it might almst be as common as VMS... not likely. Ultrix never drive every VAX nor was it as robust as VMS. It will still not be a 24x7x365 OS of any standing until proven so by use, not assertion. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA00284 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:34:32 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 5 months

Re: 4.4BSD

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<What I was saying that if someone, no matter who, tries to use the governme <oppression mechanism (formally known as intellectual property law) to obstr The rom code for the KA650 is not public domain nor was it ever relased with public domain trimmings to anyone. Calling it opression or anything else is a transparent attempt to evade the law. <supposed to cooperate, not fight. Using legal quirks to obstruct the work o <non-profit software developer for ideological reasons would probably be <universally agreed to be unethical. When applied to "freely copyable code" no problem. Copyrighted firmware is not that. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA20395 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:43:36 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 5 months

Re: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Let's look at things from the practical viewpoint, OK? One of my goals is t <establish a repository containing the latest available microcode revision f That is not the problem. You are putting up the ROM contents off the cpu card and that is unreleased copyrighted code. <Come on, removing the KA650 from the list of CPUs for which I make microcod <updates available won't change anything. I will still have to carry a ragba <DEC-copyrighted bits and pieces in order to make my OS project successful. Then I expect you will get propper permissions or paperwork showing that they were grandfatherd. In either case by not doing that your potentially liable( and involing others) in a copyright infingment suit. Copyright is a legal issue. <UNIX will require a copy of VMB.EXE in order to boot from MSCP disks and TM Not an issue and that is not the rom image. <The thing of it is, all this hardware is orphaned. If you have a DEBNA and <to upgrade it to DEBNI to run UNIX, or if you have KA650 V1.1 and want to <upgrade it to V1.2 to run UNIX, if you call COMPAQ and ask them for a firmw <upgrade they'll laugh at you. If DEC still existed and supported this stuff <would be a different story, but with all this hardware orphaned, the poor V <UNIX users have no one to turn to for microcode upgrades and troubleshootin <support except the VAX UNIX maintainer, i.e., me. Not true. While Compaq/DEC may or may not supply products it is still their ownership. Further I'd bet that through field service spares parts are still quite available. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA20389 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:43:29 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 5 months

the contents of this mailing list

by norman＠nose.cita.utoronto.ca

My two cents' worth on the latest fuss: It seems premature to discuss splitting the list unless there is a concrete proposal for how to split it, but I cannot think of a split that would solve the present problem. The real trouble right now is one or two people who cannot resist waving their antlers around in public. We could eliminate them by declaring UNIX on anything but the PDP11 (and perhaps the PDP-7) to be out of bounds, but unless we also refuse to talk about anything post-V7, that is an artificial cutoff; there's a fair bit of shared code between 2.11BSD and 4BSD (wasn't that the point of 2.11 et al?). There's also a genuine link between PDP11 and VAX hardware (nearly all the pre-VAXBI peripheral devices for a start). More important than any of the above, I'd like to ask everyone to try to keep their remarks civil and reasonably to-the-point (difficult though both of those often are in e-mail), and to take conversations that are marginal to the main purpose of the list to direct e-mail rather than broadcasting everything to everyone no matter how peripheral. (Which is not to say that discussion of peripherals aren't relevant.) For example, I had a handful of comments both philosophical and technical on Michael Sokolov's recent postings; they didn't strike me as of general interest, so I mailed them directly to him. To close with a reference nearer to ancient UNIX, I think it was Dennis who once suggested that netnews would have had a much higher signal-to-noise ratio if there had been no `followup' command, so it was easier to send e-mail directly to the original poster than to make a fool of one's self in public. Norman Wilson Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA20323 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:37:09 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jan 27 13:38:45 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA20318 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:37:02 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA01601; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:38:45 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901270338.OAA01601(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Split of PUPS mail list?? In-Reply-To: <19990127035054.L496(a)krdl.org.sg> from "Joerg B. Micheel" at "Jan 27, 1999 3:50:54 am" To: joerg(a)krdl.org.sg (Joerg B. Micheel) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:38:45 +1100 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Joerg B. Micheel: > > Please email me your suggestions, desires etc w.r.t this issue. I will > > post a summary sometime next week, and we can then decide what to do. > > You don't mention a specific scheme to do the split. No. I'll take suggestions, then summarise the suggestions and post them next week. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA20369 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:43:03 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 5 months

Re: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> wrote: > I would definitely recommend that the firmware image is removed from the > PUPS Archive until it can be legally distributed to people without a DEC > software license. Presently there are no EPROM images on minnie. However, I'm far from the idea of denying my users the firmware upgrades they need just because of some stupid copyrights held by a company that doesn't even exist any more, so if you have an actual need for one of the EPROM images I have, I can E-mail it to you compressed and uuencoded. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA19626 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:36:07 +1100 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Jan 27 10:35:41 1999 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA19621 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:35:59 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id QAA13940 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:35:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:35:41 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199901270035.QAA13940(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > Johnny Billquist > Hmmm. This could well degenerate into a squabble. ;-) Yeah, it could. So enough said and (hopefully) it stops now. > While I run Unix on the VAXen I have, I sure wish someone had implemented > the MSCP BBR stuff for instance. Not event Ultrix does it properly, MSCP BBR is _hard_ and not documented well (or not documented at all). Come to think of it MSCP in general is difficult and not documented very well (Chris Torek's comments in the 'ra.c' driver are fun to read;)). Best solution I've found is to use a SCSI<->MSCP adaptor and let the adaptor do the BBR <g> Steven Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA19853 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:38:36 +1100 (EST) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Wed Jan 27 11:38:19 1999 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (trailing-edge.wdn.com [198.232.144.27]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA19848 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.cs.adfa.EDU.AU>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:38:25 +1100 (EST) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.cs.adfa.EDU.AU; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:38:19 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:38:19 -0500 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Message-Id: <990126203819.2020009f(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > While I run Unix on the VAXen I have, I sure wish someone had implemented > the MSCP BBR stuff for instance. Not event Ultrix does it properly, If you look at the commented sources for the DEC OS's, you'll see that it took them several minor version releases in order to get bad block replacement working passably. And there still remain situations that aren't handled well even in the best implementations. Tim. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA19979 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:11:21 +1100 (EST) >From "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> Wed Jan 27 05:12:31 1999 Received: from krdl.org.sg (rodin.krdl.org.sg [137.132.252.27]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA19973 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:11:08 +1100 (EST) Received: from mailhost.krdl.org.sg (mailbox.krdl.org.sg [137.132.247.30]) by krdl.org.sg (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA06573; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:16:51 +0800 (SGT) Received: from negara.nus.sg (negara [137.132.248.175]) by mailhost.krdl.org.sg (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA23639; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:10:57 +0800 (SGT) Received: (from joerg@localhost) by negara.nus.sg (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) id DAA00603; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:12:31 +0800 (SGT) Message-ID: <19990127031231.H496(a)krdl.org.sg> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:12:31 +0800 From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> To: Michael Sokolov <mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD References: <199901261944.OAA03412(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: <199901261944.OAA03412(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 02:44:12PM -0500 Organization: Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Singapore Project: SingAREN, the Singapore Advanced Research and Education Network Operating-System: ... drained by Solaris 7 Intel Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 02:44:12PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > That's exactly what I'm arguing! This is not a fight, this is research OS > development. I'm not stealing BSD, I'm contributing to it. Volunteering to do > the job of the principal maintainer of 4.3BSD-*, which no one has done since > 1988, is one of the greatest contributions one can make. Great. I'm glad we have you around to follow this mission. Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 8742582 Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Rm 3-65, C041 Fax: +65 7744990 21 Heng Mui Keng Terrace Pager: +65 96016020 Singapore 119613 Plan: Troubleshooting ATM Republic of Singapore Networks and Applications Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA20001 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:15:56 +1100 (EST) >From "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> Wed Jan 27 05:16:53 1999 Received: from krdl.org.sg (rodin.krdl.org.sg [137.132.252.27]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA19994 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:15:24 +1100 (EST) Received: from mailhost.krdl.org.sg (mailbox.krdl.org.sg [137.132.247.30]) by krdl.org.sg (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA06726; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:21:13 +0800 (SGT) Received: from negara.nus.sg (negara [137.132.248.175]) by mailhost.krdl.org.sg (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA24145; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:15:18 +0800 (SGT) Received: (from joerg@localhost) by negara.nus.sg (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) id DAA00610; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:16:53 +0800 (SGT) Message-ID: <19990127031653.I496(a)krdl.org.sg> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:16:53 +0800 From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> To: Michael Sokolov <mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD References: <199901261944.OAA03415(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: <199901261944.OAA03415(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 02:44:34PM -0500 Organization: Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Singapore Project: SingAREN, the Singapore Advanced Research and Education Network Operating-System: ... drained by Solaris 7 Intel Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 02:44:34PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > What I was saying that if someone, no matter who, tries to use the government's > oppression mechanism (formally known as intellectual property law) to obstruct > my work, I would defend myself by any means I have, and i would have the full > moral right to call that person or organization a twit. This is the non-profit > software development world we are talking about, and in this world people are > supposed to cooperate, not fight. Using legal quirks to obstruct the work of a > non-profit software developer for ideological reasons would probably be > universally agreed to be unethical. As I tried to explain earlier, nobody is actually doing that, not even attempting. BSDI lives in the commercial world and they have been protecting their work against other *commercial* use. On the *research* side, those same BSDI team members (again citing Mike Karels, Kirk McKusick and possibly others) keep *actively* supporting *BSD. There is no clash as such. People are *very* reasonable, especially when it comes to open technology, they have been in that business for long and appreciate it's value and impact. Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 8742582 Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Rm 3-65, C041 Fax: +65 7744990 21 Heng Mui Keng Terrace Pager: +65 96016020 Singapore 119613 Plan: Troubleshooting ATM Republic of Singapore Networks and Applications Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA20076 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:37:07 +1100 (EST) >From "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> Wed Jan 27 05:38:21 1999 Received: from krdl.org.sg (rodin.krdl.org.sg [137.132.252.27]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA20066 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:36:54 +1100 (EST) Received: from mailhost.krdl.org.sg (mailbox.krdl.org.sg [137.132.247.30]) by krdl.org.sg (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA07433; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:42:41 +0800 (SGT) Received: from negara.nus.sg (negara [137.132.248.175]) by mailhost.krdl.org.sg (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA26506; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:36:47 +0800 (SGT) Received: (from joerg@localhost) by negara.nus.sg (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) id DAA00622; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:38:21 +0800 (SGT) Message-ID: <19990127033821.K496(a)krdl.org.sg> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:38:21 +0800 From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> To: Michael Sokolov <mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image References: <199901270041.TAA03508(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: <199901270041.TAA03508(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 07:41:17PM -0500 Organization: Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Singapore Project: SingAREN, the Singapore Advanced Research and Education Network Operating-System: ... drained by Solaris 7 Intel Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 07:41:17PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Presently there are no EPROM images on minnie. However, I'm far from the idea > of denying my users the firmware upgrades they need just because of some stupid > copyrights held by a company that doesn't even exist any more, so if you have > an actual need for one of the EPROM images I have, I can E-mail it to you > compressed and uuencoded. With a different tone and manner people at Compaq/DEC might actually be quite willing to support archival of their work (which is protected by law) for the purpose of tracking history. It never hurts to show curtesy and ask politely. If I were you, especially as the maintainer of CSRG work, I'd certainly give it a try ... Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 8742582 Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Rm 3-65, C041 Fax: +65 7744990 21 Heng Mui Keng Terrace Pager: +65 96016020 Singapore 119613 Plan: Troubleshooting ATM Republic of Singapore Networks and Applications Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA20167 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:49:24 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jan 27 12:51:07 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA20162 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:49:17 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA01515 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:51:07 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901270251.NAA01515(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: PUPS Mail list: rules of behaviour To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:51:07 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk All, I hate to do this, however I think we could do with just a few rules of behaviour for the PUPS mail list. Here we go... 1) The mailing list is for discussion on various topic areas related to UNIX history, its development, care and feeding of all UNIX systems and their hardware, and announcements of useful information related to the above. It is generally inclusive, rather than exclusive. However.... 2) There should be little or no discussion of major systems' development, including announcements of new versions. Instead, systems developers should create a communications channel to target their own audience. For example, 2.11BSD has the newsgroup comp.bugs.2bsd. To that end, I have just created a mailing list for Quasijarus, quasijarus(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au, and associated Majordomo structures. Quasijarus users should join this list so that developments and announcements about this system can reach them. In other words, interested parties are expected to monitor these mailing lists or newsgroups, in order to follow development and announcements. 3) Discussion is to be civil and not religious, where possible. There have been a large number of UNIX systems and flavours. There is no single `best' system. 4) Offensive postings: if a person's mail postings offends someone, then they should email me, the list maintainer. If I get a number of complaints, I will ask the original author to not be so offensive. If I need to warn a person twice, then I will begin to censor their list postings. I will repost this message if/when it becomes necessary. I am still collection suggestions with regards to the charter of the list and if we need to make separate lists etc. The rules above, though, apply to the list as it is now. Thanks all, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA20302 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:30:14 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 5 months

Re: 4.4BSD

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> wrote: > > Eventually I will support almost every VAX ever made, just like Ultrix. There ^^^^^^ > > is no reason why it can't be done. If Ultrix, a close 4.3BSD derivative, could > > do this, so can 4.3BSD-* itself. > > FYI. Ultrix don't support every VAX ever made. > Only VMS does. See the line of carets up there. BTW, if someone with the hardware were willing to be a guinea pig, I would readily add support for KA660 and KA670, making 4.3BSD-Quasijarus support even MORE hardware than Ultrix in this particular area. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA19598 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:27:38 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 5 months

Re: 4.4BSD

by Johnny Billquist

On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote: Sigh. I guess I shouldn't get into a new squabble with/over Solokov, but here I go again... > On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 03:40:19AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > > Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote: > > > > You may believe whatever you want, but I will only remark that several very > > prominent VAX hardware gurus (some of them on this list) support my work very > > eagerly. Whatever you or the NetBSD gang may believe, my True UNIX is the only > > UNIX system that is really a VAX OS and can truly drive a VAX the way it's > > supposed to be driven. I'd argue that VMS is the true driver of VAXen, and nothing else... Unix is kindof a side track altogether. No matter what religious beliefs you have. > When it "drives" most VAXen, I encourage you to let me know. It won't even > run on most of the VAXen I have, and I don't expect that to change any > time soon. But if your definition of "the way it's supposed to be driven" > is "not at all", I guess I have no quibble with your logic, at least. I > want support for the hardware I own, and features like mmap() and NFS. > Between those, I think you'll find quite a bit of the bloat you're complaining > about. I also want some user-convenience features like dynamic libraries and > a compiler that can actually optimize code worth a damn, even if it's GCC, > which I think you'd probably find even more objectionable. So any system > you produce is not likely to be useful to me. Let's agree to disagree > about this. No, Solokov isn't likely to please you. > > > Despite the great temptation to do so, neither the NetBSD nor the FreeBSD > > > project have taken up the mantle of CSRG [...] > > > > Excellent! This gives me the luxury of being free from competitors. > > Look, if you're going to mixmaster my text like this, I'm not about to > respond to yours any more and give you more material to play with. As > I said, I have an interest in old Unices mostly for historical reasons; > you appear to have an interest because you want to branch new development > from them -- fine, that's as may be, who cares? There's certainly room > for both points of view, and I fail to see why you're being so combative. Solokov has in the past been more than just combative. I'd say he's more or less on the hate list of a lot of people on the NetBSD/vax list for raving all the time. He finally ceased posting there, to most everyones relief. Unfortunately he started posting here instead. Couldn't we do a real split of the pdp-11-stuff, and all other historical Unix stuff. I'm really not interested in historical Unix. I'm first and foremost interested in pdp-11, that's why I got into this list. Unix is a secondary issue to me, and historical Unix isn't my playfield. The other option would be to get out of this list totally, but some people actually need help with pdp-11 stuff, and there I can contribute. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id HAA17274 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 07:52:20 +1100 (EST) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Wed Jan 27 06:52:00 1999 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA17269 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 07:52:10 +1100 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA25319; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:52:01 +0100 Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:52:00 +0100 (MET) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: Michael Sokolov <mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD In-Reply-To: <199901261945.OAA03418(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.990126215000.23686D-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Eventually I will support almost every VAX ever made, just like Ultrix. There > is no reason why it can't be done. If Ultrix, a close 4.3BSD derivative, could > do this, so can 4.3BSD-* itself. FYI. Ultrix don't support every VAX ever made. Only VMS does. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA17935 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:24:31 +1100 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Jan 27 08:23:31 1999 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA17927 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:24:22 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id OAA13198 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:23:31 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:23:31 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199901262223.OAA13198(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi Johnny - > From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> > Sigh. I guess I shouldn't get into a new squabble with/over Solokov, but > here I go again... Netbsd's mailing list was rendered unreadable for quite a while ;-( > I'd argue that VMS is the true driver of VAXen, and nothing else... > Unix is kindof a side track altogether. No matter what religious beliefs I maintain the opposite. VMS _was_ (past tense) the driver of VAXEN but that was due to Ken "UNIX is Snake Oil" Olsen. Since DEC is defunct and VMS is effectively no longer, I'd argue that UNIX is the winner/driver. Are Vaxen even being made any longer? The ALPHA is what is driving Compaq/dec now. > > I want support for the hardware I own, and features like mmap() and NFS. > > Between those, I think you'll find quite a bit of the bloat you're ... Amen! Adding NFS to the kernel about doubles the size of the kernel. > Unfortunately he started posting here instead. ;-( > Couldn't we do a real split of the pdp-11-stuff, and all other historical > Unix stuff. I'm really not interested in historical Unix. I'm first and > foremost interested in pdp-11, that's why I got into this list. Unix is a Hear hear! PUPS started out with the emphasis on PDP-11s based UNIX although other OSs would be welcome (the RT11 and RSTS folks have their own forums though). I doubt anyone would be upset if someone posted an RSX11D question to PUPS but I think many of us are getting tired of a proposed new/wonderous "4.4BSD". Steven Schultz Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA17955 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:24:58 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jan 27 08:26:24 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA17948 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:24:51 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA05633; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:26:24 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901262226.JAA05633(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image In-Reply-To: <199901260125.UAA03071(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Jan 25, 1999 8:25:12 pm" To: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:26:24 +1100 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Michael Sokolov: > allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent) wrote: > > > Get that out of there fast, it's copyrighted firmware! > > The PUPS archive already contains some PDP-11 boot/diag/etc. odds and ends. > Why not have VAX ones too? Just some clarification here. There is a section in the PUPS Archive which is not readily accesible to normal S/Key users of the archive. This is mainly used by those volunteers who are helping to distribute the archive, and for other sundry stuff. If a volunteer puts something in there which is copyright, then they must understand that the legal responsibility is theirs and theirs alone. The same thing applies to the main archive. I would definitely recommend that the firmware image is removed from the PUPS Archive until it can be legally distributed to people without a DEC software license. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA18138 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:34:55 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jan 27 08:36:27 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA18130 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:34:48 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA05730 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:36:27 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901262236.JAA05730(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Why not 4.4BSD? To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:36:27 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Just my $0.02 worth. I haven't moved the majority of 4BSD stuff into the PUPS Archive mainly to give Kirk a chance to sell his 4 CD set containing all the CSRG releases. He's done a lot of hard work a) writing BSD code over the years and b) finding, transcribing from tape, and organising the various releases onto the CD set. I am always prepared to distribute sub-parts of the 4CD set to people if they want it, and I'd be very happy to put into the PUPS Archive the most popular 4BSD releases. In fact, this has been done, to some extent. I would resist the urge to distribute the entire CSRG collection either via media or through the on-line archive, at least until Kirk has been recompensed for his work. However, Emanuel let me know exactly which 4BSD release you'd like to see, and it will be added! Cheers, Warren P.S Also, a plea for unity w.r.t this mailing list, or at the very least a sense of restraint and _understanding_ of other people's viewpoints. Thanks. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA18201 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:37:09 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jan 27 08:38:32 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA18193 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:37:01 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA05749; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:38:32 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901262238.JAA05749(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: UNIX V6 Enhancements/Games In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9901260824400.19662-100000(a)dizzy.cs.fiu.edu> from alejandro gonzalez at "Jan 26, 1999 8:27:15 am" To: agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu (alejandro gonzalez) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:38:32 +1100 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by alejandro gonzalez: > > Reading the Unix Summary, I have noticed that some packages are > distributed as Enhancements: Like TROFF, or some of the Games, and not in > the orginial distribution > > The Unix System the comes with the tapes does not come with Man, Troff, > etc.. Is any of this extra stuff in the Pups Archive? If so, Where? > > Alex All we have are the tapes as donated to us by Dennis Ritchie and Ken Wellsch. I don't know if a copy of the enhancements still exist. However, they may have been part of PWB UNIX, which was around at the same time as Research UNIX. Have a look in the Distributions/usdl section for PWB UNIX. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA18317 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:42:50 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jan 27 08:44:19 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA18307 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:42:41 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA05790 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:44:19 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901262244.JAA05790(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Split of PUPS mail list?? To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:44:19 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk All, Both Steven Schultz and Johnny Billquist have suggested a split of the existing PUPS mailing list into a number of mailing lists. As the maintainer of the list, I am not in a position to force a decision either way: instead, I think it should be driven by the list members. Please email me your suggestions, desires etc w.r.t this issue. I will post a summary sometime next week, and we can then decide what to do. Many thanks, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA18975 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:21:28 +1100 (EST) >From "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> Wed Jan 27 09:20:17 1999 Received: from biz1.mailsrvcs.net (biz1.gte.net [207.115.153.50]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA18970 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:21:20 +1100 (EST) Received: from p2350 ([208.254.186.71]) by biz1.mailsrvcs.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-40549L5000S0) with ESMTP id AAA10955; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:21:15 -0600 From: "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> To: <wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au>, "Unix Heritage Society" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Why not 4.4BSD? Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:20:17 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19990126232114.AAA10955@p2350> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi, ---------- > From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> > To: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> > Subject: Why not 4.4BSD? > Date: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 3:36 PM > I haven't moved the majority of 4BSD stuff into the PUPS Archive mainly to > give Kirk a chance to sell his 4 CD set containing all the CSRG releases. > He's done a lot of hard work a) writing BSD code over the years and > b) finding, transcribing from tape, and organising the various releases onto > the CD set. That's the explanation i waited for, and i understand that. > I would resist the urge to distribute the entire CSRG collection either > via media or through the on-line archive, at least until Kirk has been > recompensed for his work. NO problem with that. > However, Emanuel let me know exactly which 4BSD release you'd like to see, > and it will be added! Sorry, for the "noise" following my I thought "simple" question. I only wanted to know, why the 4.4 releases were not in the archive. They are part of the AU license anyway, and i thought, they are missing. > P.S Also, a plea for unity w.r.t this mailing list, or at the very least > a sense of restraint and _understanding_ of other people's viewpoints. I prefer one list, THIS one. The problems we had in the last 24 hours are my fault. Sorry for this, i should know that sometimes a "dumb" question start a flame/war about color/religions & BSD versions. Sorry about this. emanuel So a now PLEASE back to our business, enjoying our nice PDP's ;-)) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA19191 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:48:18 +1100 (EST) >From Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Wed Jan 27 09:46:16 1999 Received: from post.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA19185 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:48:09 +1100 (EST) Received: from [158.152.152.109] (helo=falstaf.demon.co.uk) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #1) id 105IDD-0002AZ-00; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:48:04 +0000 Message-ID: <Nws0nOAIPlr2EwLA(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:46:16 +0000 To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> From: Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: Split of PUPS mail list?? References: <199901262244.JAA05790(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In-Reply-To: <199901262244.JAA05790(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike (32) Version 4.01 <YSkKJATYm0AxAbv6xUlJqScVOx> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In message <199901262244.JAA05790(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>, Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> writes >All, > Both Steven Schultz and Johnny Billquist have suggested a split >of the existing PUPS mailing list into a number of mailing lists. As the >maintainer of the list, I am not in a position to force a decision either >way: instead, I think it should be driven by the list members. > >Please email me your suggestions, desires etc w.r.t this issue. I will >post a summary sometime next week, and we can then decide what to do. > >Many thanks, > > Warren FWITW I vote for a split, if only to make the filing easier. If people feel as strongly as some do about not wanting one of the lists then fine, that makes it easier. Something similar is in place at NetBSD if you want just notices, posts on one type of OS or whatever. Cheers Robin ____________________________________________________________________ Robin Birch robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk M1ASU/2E0ARJ Old computers and radios always welcome Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA19541 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:14:34 +1100 (EST) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Wed Jan 27 10:14:00 1999 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA19535 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:14:23 +1100 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA29902; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 01:14:03 +0100 Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 01:14:00 +0100 (MET) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD In-Reply-To: <199901262223.OAA13198(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.990127010122.29540B-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > Hi Johnny - Hi there, Steven. > > From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> > > I'd argue that VMS is the true driver of VAXen, and nothing else... > > Unix is kindof a side track altogether. No matter what religious beliefs > > I maintain the opposite. VMS _was_ (past tense) the driver of > VAXEN but that was due to Ken "UNIX is Snake Oil" Olsen. Since DEC > is defunct and VMS is effectively no longer, I'd argue that UNIX is > the winner/driver. Are Vaxen even being made any longer? The ALPHA > is what is driving Compaq/dec now. Hmmm. This could well degenerate into a squabble. ;-) Let's just say that VAXen are still being sold, as far as I know. VMS are still being sold. However COMPAQ sure don't push for VAXen, so I expect them to die soon. Alpha is the main target of VMS these days for sure. But there still exists VAXen that no Unix can run, leaving only VMS. And also, some stuff just isn't utilized that well under Ultrix, which means VMS is the more developed, and supported OS. While I run Unix on the VAXen I have, I sure wish someone had implemented the MSCP BBR stuff for instance. Not event Ultrix does it properly, relying on a separate, manual program for it. And let's not rack down on Ken Olsen and what he said/didn't say here. :-) > > Couldn't we do a real split of the pdp-11-stuff, and all other historical > > Unix stuff. I'm really not interested in historical Unix. I'm first and > > foremost interested in pdp-11, that's why I got into this list. Unix is a > > Hear hear! PUPS started out with the emphasis on PDP-11s based UNIX > although other OSs would be welcome (the RT11 and RSTS folks have > their own forums though). I doubt anyone would be upset if someone > posted an RSX11D question to PUPS but I think many of us are getting > tired of a proposed new/wonderous "4.4BSD". Me for one wouldn't mind, even if I think the correct forum would be info-pdp11, but then again, people usually seem happy to just find *any* forum for pdp-11 stuff. I don't mind talking about V[0-7] here, even though they are older than 2.11BSD, but really, BSD[3,4] isn't what I'm in here for. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA19584 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:26:45 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 5 months

Re: 4.4BSD

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote: > When it "drives" most VAXen, I encourage you to let me know. It won't even > run on most of the VAXen I have, and I don't expect that to change any > time soon. Eventually I will support almost every VAX ever made, just like Ultrix. There is no reason why it can't be done. If Ultrix, a close 4.3BSD derivative, could do this, so can 4.3BSD-* itself. If you want to speed it up, tell me what hardware do you have, and maybe then we can replace this flame war with a fruitful technical discussion of its buses, devices, and registers, eventually culminating with writing of the necessary drivers. The primary difficulty with expanding hardware support is the lack of hardware. If you have the hardware and want it supported, volunteer to be a guinea pig for driver testing. I already have several ideas on how to add support for certain machines, and if someone volunteers to be a guinea pig, I will be happy to send him/her some code to try firing up. Oh, BTW, it should already be possible to run my system's userland on almost every VAX ever made by running it atop of an Ultrix kernel. Ultrix is a close 4.3BSD derivative, and its system calls are a proper superset of the 4.3BSD ones. Ultrix runs 4.3BSD binaries natively, without invoking any special "emulation" or "compatibility code", since every syscall that is native for 4.3BSD is also native for Ultrix. A system composed of an Ultrix kernel and the userland from my latest release (without recompilation!) should run even better than pure Ultrix. > But if your definition of "the way it's supposed to be driven" > is "not at all", I guess I have no quibble with your logic, at least. No, this is not my definition. > I > want support for the hardware I own This will be done if you are willing to cooperate. > and features like mmap() and NFS. Sorry about mmap(), but I definitely will implement NFS. > Between those, I think you'll find quite a bit of the bloat you're > complaining about. Hardware support expansion, NFS, and even mmap() affect the kernel only. 4.3BSD-Reno blows up the userland by a factor 2, and 4.4BSD is even worse. > You do understand that "CSRG's own convention" involved increasing the value > of the "BSD" symbol in the user namespace with each release? I just checked, and CSRG did not bump this symbol for the 4.3BSD-Tahoe release, it still says 43, just like for plain 4.3BSD. If CSRG didn't bump it for Tahoe, I don't have to bump it for Quasijarus either. > As > I said, I have an interest in old Unices mostly for historical reasons; > you appear to have an interest because you want to branch new development > from them -- fine, that's as may be, who cares? There's certainly room > for both points of view, and I fail to see why you're being so combative. I'm being combative only when others are. If someone challenges my job as the current principal maintainer of Berkeley VAX UNIX, I have to defend it, that's all. > I personally don't read the statement "If you want CSRG, here I am" quite > like that, but whatever. You might not want to say things like that in > the future if you don't want to confuse and possibly irritate a fair > number of people who have a great deal of respect for CSRG and what they > did. I respectfully disagree. I'm not taking any credit away from CSRG, but just because Marshall Kirk McKusick and his fellows no longer do this job doesn't mean that I can't do it. As I said, Kirk has practically passed the torch to me himself. > It's nice to see someone working on any Berkeley UNIX. Exactly, and let's switch from flames to something more useful so that I and other 4.3BSD-* contributors can do our jobs and prove ourselves with deeds instead of words. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/

26 years, 5 months

Re: 4.4BSD

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote: > You do understand that the "some twit" you're talking about is, at least > by extension, Mike Karels? Why? He is not trying to tell me that I can't do my job. I have nothing against him and BSDI, and since he has never voiced any protests against my work, I'm assuming that he has nothing against it either. What I was saying that if someone, no matter who, tries to use the government's oppression mechanism (formally known as intellectual property law) to obstruct my work, I would defend myself by any means I have, and i would have the full moral right to call that person or organization a twit. This is the non-profit software development world we are talking about, and in this world people are supposed to cooperate, not fight. Using legal quirks to obstruct the work of a non-profit software developer for ideological reasons would probably be universally agreed to be unethical. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA17008 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 06:31:22 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 5 months

Re: 4.4BSD

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Joerg B. Micheel <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> wrote: > I don't think UCB has been using this term for 15 years. 1995 - 1980 = 15 1980 is the year of the 3BSD release, the first release from CSRG that's an actual operating system kernel and not just a package of userland enhancements. If you include the latter (1BSD and 2BSD) too, it'll be more than 15 years. > That > is because research is a different world from commercial efforts. There is no > such thing as "this is BSD / not BSD" as compared to the "one true JAVA(tm)". > You cannot steal BSD, you can only contribute to it. That's exactly what I'm arguing! This is not a fight, this is research OS development. I'm not stealing BSD, I'm contributing to it. Volunteering to do the job of the principal maintainer of 4.3BSD-*, which no one has done since 1988, is one of the greatest contributions one can make. Marshall Kirk McKusick tells me that he started the same way: first a contributor, then the principal maintainer. He didn't just assume the title, he earned it. I followed the same path. I have been doing miscellaneous work in preparation for this project for the past 3 years. I became the principal maintainer and architect only when I actually started doing this job, i.e., maintaining the master SCCS tree and making architectural decisions. I have a proposal: Let's end this pointless flame war. Titles are earned, not assumed. So far the only people participating in it are the ones who have never actually tried my system on a VAX. It's funny that you guys started challenging my maintainer job only now and not when I made my first release a month ago. When I made my release, there was absolutely no dissent from anyone. Instead, I was getting direct E-mails from several people asking me how to install it on their VAXen. There is only one way to earn the high title of the principal maintainer: do a good job at it. The former CSRG folks certainly did this. If you believe that I haven't done anough for VAX BSD to earn the title of its maintainer, how about ending this flame war and letting me go back to work so that I can do my job and prove myself with deeds instead of words? > And since the core team of BSDI today > consist of people formerly involved in BSD, what problem should there be they > keep calling their work BSD ? No problem at all! All I'm saying is that despite what someone has suggested, they have no authority to bar others from doing the same. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA16993 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 06:30:54 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 5 months

Re: 4.4BSD

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> wrote: > You can trademark anything that hasn't already been trademarked. But if a system has already existed under a certain name for 15 years, just because some twit suddenly decided to trademark it doesn't mean that the original author and copyright owner suddenly has to change its name. If some twit decides to trademark the name Michael Sokolov, that doesn't mean that I suddenly have to change my name. I have had this name for all my 19 years and will keep it for as long as I live. The same with BSD. UC Berkeley has been using this name for 15 years. Just because some phased BSDI twit suddenly decided to trademark it doesn't mean that Berkeley suddenly has to stop using it. True, I am not UC Berkeley, but I am working on UC Berkeley's system in full compliance with Berkeley's license terms. Since the UC Berkeley system is still called BSD, so is mine, since my system is just a newer version of the Berkeley one. My right, both legal and ethical, to call my system a newer version of BSD or Berkeley UNIX stems from the right to modify. The right to modify includes _any_ kind of development work, including the possiblity of becoming the new principal maintainer. > > BSDI has no rights whatsoever to the code copyrighted by the Regents > > of University of California. > > Of course they have. The rights are described in the Berkeley > License. I meant that they have no exclusive rights. They have no right to say what I can or cannot do with the UC Berkeley system. Once Berkeley gave me and everyone else the rights to redistribute and modify, no one can take these rights away from me. Not even UC Berkeley itself, since I didn't sign any agreements that they could terminate. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id VAA15079 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:19:41 +1100 (EST) >From "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> Tue Jan 26 13:20:46 1999 Received: from krdl.org.sg (rodin.krdl.org.sg [137.132.252.27]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA15074 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:19:22 +1100 (EST) Received: from mailhost.krdl.org.sg (mailbox.krdl.org.sg [137.132.247.30]) by krdl.org.sg (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id SAA22623; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:25:09 +0800 (SGT) Received: from negara.nus.sg (negara [137.132.248.175]) by mailhost.krdl.org.sg (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA07622; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:19:14 +0800 (SGT) Received: (from joerg@localhost) by negara.nus.sg (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) id LAA00541; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:20:46 +0800 (SGT) Message-ID: <19990126112046.D496(a)krdl.org.sg> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:20:46 +0800 From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> To: Michael Sokolov <mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD References: <199901261008.FAA03320(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: <199901261008.FAA03320(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 05:08:17AM -0500 Organization: Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Singapore Project: SingAREN, the Singapore Advanced Research and Education Network Operating-System: ... drained by Solaris 7 Intel Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 05:08:17AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > But if a system has already existed under a certain name for 15 years, just > because some twit suddenly decided to trademark it doesn't mean that the > original author and copyright owner suddenly has to change its name. If some > twit decides to trademark the name Michael Sokolov, that doesn't mean that I > suddenly have to change my name. I have had this name for all my 19 years and > will keep it for as long as I live. The same with BSD. UC Berkeley has been > using this name for 15 years. Just because some phased BSDI twit suddenly > decided to trademark it doesn't mean that Berkeley suddenly has to stop using > it. True, I am not UC Berkeley, but I am working on UC Berkeley's system in > full compliance with Berkeley's license terms. Since the UC Berkeley system is > still called BSD, so is mine, since my system is just a newer version of the > Berkeley one. My right, both legal and ethical, to call my system a newer > version of BSD or Berkeley UNIX stems from the right to modify. The right to > modify includes _any_ kind of development work, including the possiblity of > becoming the new principal maintainer. Well, not sure I should actually drop into the discussion of experts, but ... I don't think UCB has been using this term for 15 years. It was the group of people around Bill Joy, and later Kirk McKusick (many important names omitted) that had to write *something* onto the tapes shipped with the software. That is because research is a different world from commercial efforts. There is no such thing as "this is BSD / not BSD" as compared to the "one true JAVA(tm)". You cannot steal BSD, you can only contribute to it. BSDI is residing in the commercial world. I'm unsure about the motivations for the trademark (I lost contact with BSDI around the time they renamed the system BS/DOS), but I'm pretty sure that Rob Kolstad and colleagues meant it to protect the name against another commercial use as pure "BSD". It is not meant against any freeware *BSD (reading FreeBSD sources you might figure that some of the BSDI team members, namely Mike Karels and Kirk McKusick, have actually made contributions to the freeware effort). And since the core team of BSDI today consist of people formerly involved in BSD, what problem should there be they keep calling their work BSD ? They have done an excellent job and everybody (including Sun and recently other SVR4 folks) acknowledges their contributions. Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 8742582 Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Rm 3-65, C041 Fax: +65 7744990 21 Heng Mui Keng Terrace Pager: +65 96016020 Singapore 119613 Plan: Troubleshooting ATM Republic of Singapore Networks and Applications Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id VAA15148 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:42:22 +1100 (EST) >From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Tue Jan 26 20:42:06 1999 Received: from mail2.panix.com (mail2.panix.com [166.84.0.213]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA15143 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:42:13 +1100 (EST) Received: from panix7.panix.com (root(a)panix7.nyc.access.net [166.84.0.232]) by mail2.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixM1.3) with ESMTP id FAA00791 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:42:07 -0500 (EST) Received: (from tls@localhost) by panix7.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id FAA14725 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:42:07 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:42:06 -0500 From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Message-ID: <19990126054206.A13245(a)rek.tjls.com> Reply-To: tls(a)rek.tjls.com References: <199901260840.DAA03265(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199901260840.DAA03265(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 03:40:19AM -0500 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 03:40:19AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote: > > You may believe whatever you want, but I will only remark that several very > prominent VAX hardware gurus (some of them on this list) support my work very > eagerly. Whatever you or the NetBSD gang may believe, my True UNIX is the only > UNIX system that is really a VAX OS and can truly drive a VAX the way it's > supposed to be driven. > When it "drives" most VAXen, I encourage you to let me know. It won't even run on most of the VAXen I have, and I don't expect that to change any time soon. But if your definition of "the way it's supposed to be driven" is "not at all", I guess I have no quibble with your logic, at least. I want support for the hardware I own, and features like mmap() and NFS. Between those, I think you'll find quite a bit of the bloat you're complaining about. I also want some user-convenience features like dynamic libraries and a compiler that can actually optimize code worth a damn, even if it's GCC, which I think you'd probably find even more objectionable. So any system you produce is not likely to be useful to me. Let's agree to disagree about this. > > All that I ask is that you not touch the value of the "BSD" symbol which is > > exposed to the userland C namespace. The chaos which would ensue should > > a "later" version of BSD appear which didn't support the full 4.4BSD feature > > set is horrifying to contemplate. > > Don't worry, I'm not planning on doing that. Although I do not consider 4.4BSD > to be True UNIX, I do acknowledge that it exists, and I do respect the laws of > arithmetics and sequential numbering, so I don't plan on using numbers like > 4.5BSD or 5BSD. Instead, I follow CSRG's own convention of calling 4.3-followup > systems 4.3BSD-BlahBlahBlah, just like they did with 4.3BSD-Tahoe. You do understand that "CSRG's own convention" involved increasing the value of the "BSD" symbol in the user namespace with each release? I'm just asking that you be careful not to produce a system which would be difficult to distinguish from other systems with a very different feature matrix. > > > Despite the great temptation to do so, neither the NetBSD nor the FreeBSD > > project have taken up the mantle of CSRG [...] > > Excellent! This gives me the luxury of being free from competitors. Look, if you're going to mixmaster my text like this, I'm not about to respond to yours any more and give you more material to play with. As I said, I have an interest in old Unices mostly for historical reasons; you appear to have an interest because you want to branch new development from them -- fine, that's as may be, who cares? There's certainly room for both points of view, and I fail to see why you're being so combative. [...] > First of all, I didn't say "I'm CSRG", I said that I am CSRG's legitimate and > authorized successor. Second, there is nothing in the words "Computer Systems > Research Group" that is limited to Berkeley. Any group of researchers could > conceivably come up with that name. However, doing that would be extremely > confusing, therefore, I don't want to do that. I personally don't read the statement "If you want CSRG, here I am" quite like that, but whatever. You might not want to say things like that in the future if you don't want to confuse and possibly irritate a fair number of people who have a great deal of respect for CSRG and what they did. But that free advice is probably worth what you paid for it. > Check out the Quasijarus features page: > > http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/features.html > > So far the list is not that long, but keep in mind that the work started less > than a month ago. It's nice to see someone working on any Berkeley UNIX. Thor Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id VAA15170 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:44:12 +1100 (EST) >From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Tue Jan 26 20:43:58 1999 Received: from mail1.panix.com (mail1.panix.com [166.84.0.212]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA15165 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:44:03 +1100 (EST) Received: from panix7.panix.com (root(a)panix7.nyc.access.net [166.84.0.232]) by mail1.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixM1.3) with ESMTP id FAA10337 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:43:58 -0500 (EST) Received: (from tls@localhost) by panix7.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id FAA14928 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:43:58 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:43:58 -0500 From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Message-ID: <19990126054358.B13245(a)rek.tjls.com> Reply-To: tls(a)rek.tjls.com References: <199901261008.FAA03320(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199901261008.FAA03320(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 05:08:17AM -0500 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 05:08:17AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> wrote: > > > You can trademark anything that hasn't already been trademarked. > > But if a system has already existed under a certain name for 15 years, just > because some twit suddenly decided to trademark it doesn't mean that the > original author and copyright owner suddenly has to change its name. If some You do understand that the "some twit" you're talking about is, at least by extension, Mike Karels? Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id AAA15631 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 00:27:29 +1100 (EST) >From alejandro gonzalez <agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu> Tue Jan 26 23:27:15 1999 Received: from ferret.cs.fiu.edu (ferret.cs.fiu.edu [131.94.125.231]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA15626 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 00:27:20 +1100 (EST) Received: from dizzy.cs.fiu.edu (dizzy.cs.fiu.edu [131.94.131.2]) by ferret.cs.fiu.edu (8.9.1/FIU-CS-1.1) with ESMTP id IAA04796 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:27:15 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:27:15 -0500 (EST) From: alejandro gonzalez <agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: UNIX V6 Enhancements/Games In-Reply-To: <199901260317.AA02518(a)world.std.com> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9901260824400.19662-100000(a)dizzy.cs.fiu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Reading the Unix Summary, I have noticed that some packages are distributed as Enhancements: Like TROFF, or some of the Games, and not in the orginial distribution The Unix System the comes with the tapes does not come with Man, Troff, etc.. Is any of this extra stuff in the Pups Archive? If so, Where? Thanks alot, Alex ********************************* Alejandro Gonzalez HPDRC Research Assistant NASA Regional Application Center agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu ********************************* Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA16980 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 06:30:36 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 5 months

Re: 4.4BSD

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> wrote: > Now you mention this, I seem to remember that BSDI registered the name > BSD as a trade mark, so you wouldn't be able to even if you wanted to. That's nonsense. You can't trademark something that isn't even yours. BSDI has no rights whatsoever to the code copyrighted by the Regents of University of California. The BSD license agreement explicitly allows unrestricted modification and distribution of modified versions. Incrementing the version number is one of the most natural operations a developer modifying the system can do. If I were to use CSRG's final 1995 code as my starting point, I would indeed call my system 4.5BSD, and I would have the full right to do so. The only reason I do not and cannot call my system 4.5BSD, 5BSD, or whatever is because I'm tmachining the SCCS tree back to 1988, nullifying 4.4BSD. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id TAA14866 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:49:29 +1100 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Jan 26 18:49:16 1999 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA14861 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:49:21 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id TAA05782; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:19:17 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id TAA94514; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:19:16 +1030 (CST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:19:16 +1030 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: Michael Sokolov <mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Message-ID: <19990126191916.A66239(a)freebie.lemis.com> References: <199901260840.DAA03267(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199901260840.DAA03267(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 03:40:40AM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tuesday, 26 January 1999 at 3:40:40 -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> wrote: > >> Now you mention this, I seem to remember that BSDI registered the name >> BSD as a trade mark, so you wouldn't be able to even if you wanted to. > > That's nonsense. You can't trademark something that isn't even > yours. You can trademark anything that hasn't already been trademarked. > BSDI has no rights whatsoever to the code copyrighted by the Regents > of University of California. Of course they have. The rights are described in the Berkeley License. > The BSD license agreement explicitly allows unrestricted > modification and distribution of modified versions. Precisely. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id UAA15026 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:54:41 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 5 months

Re: 4.4BSD

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote: > I frankly consider this to be silly, somewhat presumptious, and, for myself, > at least, a waste of time. But if it's something _you_ want to do, I > encourage you to do it, I suppose. You may believe whatever you want, but I will only remark that several very prominent VAX hardware gurus (some of them on this list) support my work very eagerly. Whatever you or the NetBSD gang may believe, my True UNIX is the only UNIX system that is really a VAX OS and can truly drive a VAX the way it's supposed to be driven. > All that I ask is that you not touch the value of the "BSD" symbol which is > exposed to the userland C namespace. The chaos which would ensue should > a "later" version of BSD appear which didn't support the full 4.4BSD feature > set is horrifying to contemplate. Don't worry, I'm not planning on doing that. Although I do not consider 4.4BSD to be True UNIX, I do acknowledge that it exists, and I do respect the laws of arithmetics and sequential numbering, so I don't plan on using numbers like 4.5BSD or 5BSD. Instead, I follow CSRG's own convention of calling 4.3-followup systems 4.3BSD-BlahBlahBlah, just like they did with 4.3BSD-Tahoe. > Despite the great temptation to do so, neither the NetBSD nor the FreeBSD > project have taken up the mantle of CSRG [...] Excellent! This gives me the luxury of being free from competitors. > History is history. Yes, history is history, and I respect it as such. I'm not trying to abuse my write access to the 4BSD collection and maliciously modify some preserved tape image without anyone's knowledge. However, there is nothing in the world that prevents a developer from creating a new version of system from an old one. If there is an SCCS file with deltas ranging from 1.1 to 7.16, there is absolutely nothing in the world preventing a developer with legitimate authorized write access to that file from checking in delta 7.17. I am a legitimate authorized Berkeley UNIX developer (actually the principal one at the present time). My title as the principal maintainer has been legitimized and blessed by the previous CSRG maintainer. > Pretending > to be an organization which doesn't exist... First of all, I didn't say "I'm CSRG", I said that I am CSRG's legitimate and authorized successor. Second, there is nothing in the words "Computer Systems Research Group" that is limited to Berkeley. Any group of researchers could conceivably come up with that name. However, doing that would be extremely confusing, therefore, I don't want to do that. > [...] gets very little useful work done. Check out the Quasijarus features page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/features.html So far the list is not that long, but keep in mind that the work started less than a month ago. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id TAA14823 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:27:01 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 5 months

VAX EPROM upgrades

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Dear VAX users, Due to the storm of protests, the method of distribution of VAX EPROM upgrades has changed from the PUPS archive to direct uuencoded E-mail. If you require an EPROM upgrade for your VAX in order to run a UNIX software distribution obtained from me, please contant me via ARPA Internet SMTP mail and I will send you the EPROM image, compressed and uuencoded. I currently have the images for KA650-B V1.2 and KA42 SCSI/MFM daughterboard. The VAX odds and ends directory in the PUPS archive will still contain the soft-loaded microcode files and booters, which have already been freely distributed with different VAX UNIX systems (either 4.3BSD-* or BSD derivatives like MIT's Athena-4.3BSD). Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id TAA14811 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:26:42 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 5 months

Re: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Let's look at things from the practical viewpoint, OK? One of my goals is to establish a repository containing the latest available microcode revision for every machine supported by my UNIX system. Why? As you may remember from our extensive phone discussions, UNIX is quite picky about which hardware to run on. In many cases (on a 730, for example), UNIX won't boot if the firmware is below the minimum required revision. I know for sure that this is the case on 730, 8200, and if James Lothian's WCS changes get integrated, 750. It will also be the case on BabyVAXen when I get around to supporting them. Now, so far I haven't heard any reports of UNIX refusing to boot on KA650s with early microcode revisions, but one may come in at some point. Since my KA650 runs UNIX right now, I know for sure that at least my version of the firmware is UNIX-friendly. By making it available to other 4.3BSD-Quasijarus users (note that keeping the microcode repository within the PUPS archive has the advantage of giving the images out only to Ancient UNIX enthusiasts, i.e., only to those who really need them), I can make sure that the greatest possible number of people can benefit from my 4.3BSD-Quasijarus work. Come on, removing the KA650 from the list of CPUs for which I make microcode updates available won't change anything. I will still have to carry a ragbag of DEC-copyrighted bits and pieces in order to make my OS project successful. Soon UNIX will require a copy of VMB.EXE in order to boot from MSCP disks and TMSCP tapes on large VAXen. Yes, there is one distributed with the machine itself, but it's too old. UNIX requires a very recent version, and if I want my OS to be viable, there will simply be no other choice but to distribute VMB.EXE. Or look at BI-bus machines. There were two different BI network cards made, DEBNA and DEBNI. They have the same hardware, but different EPROMs. DEBNA is the older one and DEBNI is the newer one. They have completely different software interfaces, and DEBNI is a lot simpler to program. Right now UNIX doesn't support any BI network cards. Suppose I decide to add this support. Given how hard it is to find documentation, write drivers, and test them, what do you think, will I welcome the idea of writing two drivers instead of one? Rather than spend months hunting for a BVP manual and writing a DEBNA driver, it's much easier to write a driver for DEBNI only (much simpler software interface) and tell DEBNA users to upgrade their boards to DEBNI. The catch is, if you are getting your 8200 or whatever for free, you don't get to choose which network card to use, you take what you can find. But with me keeping the repository of all important EPROM images and microcode patch files, the poor DEBNA user can just download the image, borrow an EPROM blaster, and run his free VAX with a UNIX-supported DEBNI! The thing of it is, all this hardware is orphaned. If you have a DEBNA and want to upgrade it to DEBNI to run UNIX, or if you have KA650 V1.1 and want to upgrade it to V1.2 to run UNIX, if you call COMPAQ and ask them for a firmware upgrade they'll laugh at you. If DEC still existed and supported this stuff it would be a different story, but with all this hardware orphaned, the poor VAX UNIX users have no one to turn to for microcode upgrades and troubleshooting support except the VAX UNIX maintainer, i.e., me. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA14104 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:43:26 +1100 (EST) >From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Tue Jan 26 14:43:10 1999 Received: from mail1.panix.com (mail1.panix.com [166.84.0.212]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA14099 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:43:16 +1100 (EST) Received: from panix7.panix.com (root(a)panix7.nyc.access.net [166.84.0.232]) by mail1.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixM1.3) with ESMTP id XAA13322 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:43:11 -0500 (EST) Received: (from tls@localhost) by panix7.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id XAA02557 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:43:10 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:43:10 -0500 From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Message-ID: <19990125234310.A1809(a)rek.tjls.com> Reply-To: tls(a)rek.tjls.com References: <199901260323.WAA03123(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199901260323.WAA03123(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 10:23:32PM -0500 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 10:23:32PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote: > > > It would be nice to have the pre-4.4 (was it 4.4-alpha?) and 4.4BSD > > distributions, as shipped by CSRG, in the archive. > > See my previous posting. > > > What would be even nicer would be the entire system as of the last > > time it was touched -- the AT&T-encumbered system which would correspond > > to the free 4.4BSD-Lite2 distribution which was the last public output > > from CSRG. > > You'll get exactly this if you order Marshall Kirk McKusick's CSRG Archives > CD-ROM set. The last CD-ROM is the image of CSRG's master /usr/src as it > existed on the last second of CSRG's existence, one hour after the 4.4BSD-Lite2 > tape was pressed. > > > Did anyone ever build a distribution of such a system? > > You mean binary distribution? Well, the machine the master /usr/src was stored > on ran this system presumably, so I guess the binaries you want existed at some > point. Whether they have been preserved anywhere is an entirely different > matter. > > > Is it feasible > > to do so now? > > I suppose so. The best way to do it would probably be to bootstrap from the > 4.4BSD tape and then recompile the system from the new source tree. > > > I don't have a firm grasp on which architectures would > > actually compile and run as of that point in the SCCS files -- would > > VAX, using the old VM system? > > I also have a very vague idea of what exactly can 4.4BSD-* run on. But > definitely not VAX or Tahoe. There is no old VM in the 4.4BSD-* tree, and the > kernel architecture has changed so much between 4.3BSD and 4.4BSD that back- > porting it is not something I would volunteer to do. > > > I'd assume hp300 would work, since it > > was the primary development platform, right? > > Yes. > > > Had the LBL SPARC port been integrated? > > Yes. > > You know, if your interest is in resurrecting CSRG, my advice to you is not to > bother with 4.4BSD-*, but to join Quasijarus Project instead. The break point My interest is not in "resurrecting CSRG". If I were into that kind of thing I'd just join Jews For Jesus. My interest is pretty much purely historical. > in the history of CSRG was in late 1988. Everything after that is so far from > True UNIX that I have decided to put a big X over it, turn the Universe clock > back to that point (using my SCCS Time Machine), declare all of CSRG's > post-1988 work "not really CSRG", and declare myself CSRG's true successor. > > If you look at my mail signature, you'll see that I'm the new official > maintainer of Berkeley UNIX and the principal architect of its further > development, known as Quasijarus Project. As far as I am concerned, 4.4BSD > never existed except as a "side branch" from True UNIX, and the last True UNIX > release from CSRG was 4.3BSD-Tahoe. I picked it up from that point and now I'm > maintaining and developing it just as CSRG did until 1988. I am the true > successor of true CSRG. If you want CSRG, here I am. I frankly consider this to be silly, somewhat presumptious, and, for myself, at least, a waste of time. But if it's something _you_ want to do, I encourage you to do it, I suppose. All that I ask is that you not touch the value of the "BSD" symbol which is exposed to the userland C namespace. The chaos which would ensue should a "later" version of BSD appear which didn't support the full 4.4BSD feature set is horrifying to contemplate. Despite the great temptation to do so, neither the NetBSD nor the FreeBSD project have taken up the mantle of CSRG and mucked around with that symbol, nor released "4.5BSD" "5BSD", or the like. History is history. Pretending to be an organization which doesn't exist... gets very little useful work done. At least that's my personal take on it. I think you'd find a substantial number of people who thought that the "True UNIX" line ran through either SunOS 4 or 9th and 10th Edition, were you to take a poll of as many wizards as you could summon. But it's a silly thing to argue about, which is why I'll assert no position at all on that issue. Similarly, I have no interest in arguing about Common LISP versus Scheme or vi versus Emacs. Please don't tempt me with a discussion of X versus MGR or C versus C++ and I'll avoid lecturing at you about _my_ religious hot buttons. :-) -- Thor Lancelot Simon tls(a)rek.tjls.com "And where do all these highways go, now that we are free?" Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA14164 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:57:16 +1100 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Jan 26 14:56:59 1999 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA14158 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:57:06 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id PAA04633; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:27:04 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id PAA93369; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:26:59 +1030 (CST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:26:59 +1030 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Message-ID: <19990126152659.I66239(a)freebie.lemis.com> References: <199901260323.WAA03123(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> <19990125234310.A1809(a)rek.tjls.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <19990125234310.A1809(a)rek.tjls.com>; from Thor Lancelot Simon on Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 11:43:10PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Monday, 25 January 1999 at 23:43:10 -0500, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote: > On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 10:23:32PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: >> in the history of CSRG was in late 1988. Everything after that is so far from >> True UNIX that I have decided to put a big X over it, turn the Universe clock >> back to that point (using my SCCS Time Machine), declare all of CSRG's >> post-1988 work "not really CSRG", and declare myself CSRG's true successor. >> >> If you look at my mail signature, you'll see that I'm the new official >> maintainer of Berkeley UNIX and the principal architect of its further >> development, known as Quasijarus Project. As far as I am concerned, 4.4BSD >> never existed except as a "side branch" from True UNIX, and the last True UNIX >> release from CSRG was 4.3BSD-Tahoe. I picked it up from that point and now I'm >> maintaining and developing it just as CSRG did until 1988. I am the true >> successor of true CSRG. If you want CSRG, here I am. > > All that I ask is that you not touch the value of the "BSD" symbol which is > exposed to the userland C namespace. The chaos which would ensue should > a "later" version of BSD appear which didn't support the full 4.4BSD feature > set is horrifying to contemplate. > > Despite the great temptation to do so, neither the NetBSD nor the FreeBSD > project have taken up the mantle of CSRG and mucked around with that symbol, > nor released "4.5BSD" "5BSD", or the like. History is history. Pretending > to be an organization which doesn't exist... gets very little useful work > done. At least that's my personal take on it. Now you mention this, I seem to remember that BSDI registered the name BSD as a trade mark, so you wouldn't be able to even if you wanted to. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA14191 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:01:14 +1100 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Jan 26 15:01:02 1999 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA14186 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:01:04 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id PAA04650; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:31:02 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id PAA93393; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:31:02 +1030 (CST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:31:02 +1030 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: Michael Sokolov <mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Licensed microcode (was: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image) Message-ID: <19990126153102.J66239(a)freebie.lemis.com> References: <199901260450.XAA03161(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199901260450.XAA03161(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 11:50:33PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Monday, 25 January 1999 at 23:50:33 -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Let's look at things from the practical viewpoint, OK? I think one aspect of a practical viewpoint is to acknowledge that there are laws relating to proprietary code. It's not practical to break these laws, no matter what you may think of them. > One of my goals is to establish a repository containing the latest > available microcode revision for every machine supported by my UNIX > system. Fine. Then negotiate with the owners of the microcode. I'd guess that it wouldn't be as difficult as with the AU licenses. But don't endanger others with your views on legality. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA14415 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:25:56 +1100 (EST) >From Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com> Wed Jan 13 16:13:50 1999 Received: from mail.calweb.com (mail.calweb.com [209.210.251.12]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA14409 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:25:47 +1100 (EST) Received: by mail.calweb.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA16989; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:25:39 -0800 (PST) X-SMTP: helo rick from rickgc(a)calweb.com server @sac2-110.calweb.com ip 207.211.93.110 user=rickgc Message-Id: <3.0.32.19990112221347.006a9f90(a)pop.calweb.com> X-Sender: rickgc(a)pop.calweb.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 22:13:50 -0800 To: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov), pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au From: Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com> Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk No problem! At 09:35 PM 1/25/99 -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: >emanuel stiebler <emu(a)ecubics.com> wrote: > >> Hi all, >> why this version isn't in the pups archive ? > >Generally it's my job as the TUHS 4BSD coordinator to ensure the completeness >of TUHS 4BSD collection, but right now I can't do anything, since Rick Copeland >has Marshall Kirk McKusick's tapes, not me. > >Rick, would you please decide whether or not you are interested in reading >_ALL_ of Marshall Kirk McKusick's tapes? If you are, please read them. If not, >please return them to Kirk so that someone more industrious and motivated can >take a stab at them (I have Kirk's OK). > >Michael Sokolov >TUHS 4BSD Coordinator >4.3BSD-* Maintainer >Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer >Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 >ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu >TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ >Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ > > Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id SAA14579 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:31:22 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 5 months

Re: 4.4BSD

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote: > It would be nice to have the pre-4.4 (was it 4.4-alpha?) and 4.4BSD > distributions, as shipped by CSRG, in the archive. See my previous posting. > What would be even nicer would be the entire system as of the last > time it was touched -- the AT&T-encumbered system which would correspond > to the free 4.4BSD-Lite2 distribution which was the last public output > from CSRG. You'll get exactly this if you order Marshall Kirk McKusick's CSRG Archives CD-ROM set. The last CD-ROM is the image of CSRG's master /usr/src as it existed on the last second of CSRG's existence, one hour after the 4.4BSD-Lite2 tape was pressed. > Did anyone ever build a distribution of such a system? You mean binary distribution? Well, the machine the master /usr/src was stored on ran this system presumably, so I guess the binaries you want existed at some point. Whether they have been preserved anywhere is an entirely different matter. > Is it feasible > to do so now? I suppose so. The best way to do it would probably be to bootstrap from the 4.4BSD tape and then recompile the system from the new source tree. > I don't have a firm grasp on which architectures would > actually compile and run as of that point in the SCCS files -- would > VAX, using the old VM system? I also have a very vague idea of what exactly can 4.4BSD-* run on. But definitely not VAX or Tahoe. There is no old VM in the 4.4BSD-* tree, and the kernel architecture has changed so much between 4.3BSD and 4.4BSD that back- porting it is not something I would volunteer to do. > I'd assume hp300 would work, since it > was the primary development platform, right? Yes. > Had the LBL SPARC port been integrated? Yes. You know, if your interest is in resurrecting CSRG, my advice to you is not to bother with 4.4BSD-*, but to join Quasijarus Project instead. The break point in the history of CSRG was in late 1988. Everything after that is so far from True UNIX that I have decided to put a big X over it, turn the Universe clock back to that point (using my SCCS Time Machine), declare all of CSRG's post-1988 work "not really CSRG", and declare myself CSRG's true successor. If you look at my mail signature, you'll see that I'm the new official maintainer of Berkeley UNIX and the principal architect of its further development, known as Quasijarus Project. As far as I am concerned, 4.4BSD never existed except as a "side branch" from True UNIX, and the last True UNIX release from CSRG was 4.3BSD-Tahoe. I picked it up from that point and now I'm maintaining and developing it just as CSRG did until 1988. I am the true successor of true CSRG. If you want CSRG, here I am. BTW, it's not just that I suddenly declared myself to be the new CSRG. I earned this title, not just assumed it. Marshall Kirk McKusick himself (the previous maintainer of CSRG) acknowledges me as the new principal maintainer and architect. Oh, and he doesn't even object to my decision to undo all of his and others' 1988-1995 work with the SCCS Time Machine. He said himself in a private E-mail that he would love to see the golden old non-bloated system resurrected. I have used the term "True UNIX" several times in this message. Let me explain what I mean. While others may view the history of UNIX as a tree (you hear about UNIX history tree diagrams all the time), I view it as a straight line. The straight line of _mainstream_ True UNIX development looks like this: V6 (Bell) -> V7 (Bell) -> 32V (Bell) -> 3BSD (UCB) -> 4.0BSD (UCB) -> 4.1BSD (UCB) -> 4.2BSD (UCB) -> 4.3BSD (UCB) -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe (UCB) -> 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 (Michael Sokolov) -> future Quasijarus releases (Michael Sokolov). For each release the responsible entity is indicated in parentheses. There are several things worth noting here. Notice how after V7 and 32V the torch of True UNIX development moves from Bell to UCB, never to return to Bell again. This is because everything Bell did after that (System V and such) deviates from the True UNIX ideology and loses the True UNIX torch. In late 1970s or early 1980s UCB picks up this torch and carries it until 1988. In 1988 UCB starts deviating from True UNIX too with the evil spirit of POSIX and everything, and loses the torch. The torch was laying on the ground from that point until the 27th of December 1998 when I picked it up with the 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 release. Now I'm carrying it into the next millennium. Check out the Quasijarus Project WWW page referenced in my mail signature. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA13519 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:17:20 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 5 months

Re: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> Get that out of there fast, it's copyrighted firmware! < <The PUPS archive already contains some PDP-11 boot/diag/etc. odds and ends. <not have VAX ones too? Yes but, not copyrighted firmware. The KA650 B V1.2 firmware is not released or granted publication that I know of and the straw horse of, "well, PDP-xx is here" is not the issue. <BTW, there is a long tradition of shipping DEC odds and ends with UNIX. Jus <look at pcs750.bin, or at DEC-contributed device drivers in 4.3BSD, or at t There is a distinct difference between DEC contributed and the KA650 rom image. <fact that if you do a strings(1) on 4.3BSD /genvmunix, you'll see DEC's <copyright and the word "ULTRIX" in a whole bunch of places. Ancient UNIX an <Ancient DEC live together very well. Please don't separate them. If our gro <(PUPS/TUHS) loves and cares for Ancient UNIX, we should also love and care <Ancient DEC. It is neither the point nor applicable. It's a specious arguement in an attempt to not respect the copyrighted firmware on the CPU card that is not distributed. The fact that DEC and unix go well is not the issue either. <And finally, some of the files in my odds-ends directory were originally <recovered from some BSD distribution (the ULTRIX rabads program, which desp <its DEC copyright, ULTRIX origin, and binary-only nature came with some BS <distributions). I doubt that the KA650 bootrom image was in there as original distribution. If the system is a KA650 it would be available on the system and if it is not it's meaningless. My comment earlier was directly and specifically aimed at the KA650 B V1.2 Eprom image. The problem is that failure to respect the copyrights and ownerships of any code, especially firmware could lead to vendors taking a future hostile stance to the work of PUPS. That would be very undesireable. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA14043 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:37:02 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 5 months

Re: 4.4BSD

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

emanuel stiebler <emu(a)ecubics.com> wrote: > Hi all, > why this version isn't in the pups archive ? Generally it's my job as the TUHS 4BSD coordinator to ensure the completeness of TUHS 4BSD collection, but right now I can't do anything, since Rick Copeland has Marshall Kirk McKusick's tapes, not me. Rick, would you please decide whether or not you are interested in reading _ALL_ of Marshall Kirk McKusick's tapes? If you are, please read them. If not, please return them to Kirk so that someone more industrious and motivated can take a stab at them (I have Kirk's OK). Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA13461 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:09:52 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 5 months

Re: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent) wrote: > Get that out of there fast, it's copyrighted firmware! The PUPS archive already contains some PDP-11 boot/diag/etc. odds and ends. Why not have VAX ones too? But if too many people start complaining, I'll just move the entire odds-ends directory to one of my friend's _anonymous_ FTP site. BTW, there is a long tradition of shipping DEC odds and ends with UNIX. Just look at pcs750.bin, or at DEC-contributed device drivers in 4.3BSD, or at the fact that if you do a strings(1) on 4.3BSD /genvmunix, you'll see DEC's copyright and the word "ULTRIX" in a whole bunch of places. Ancient UNIX and Ancient DEC live together very well. Please don't separate them. If our group (PUPS/TUHS) loves and cares for Ancient UNIX, we should also love and care for Ancient DEC. And finally, some of the files in my odds-ends directory were originally recovered from some BSD distribution (the ULTRIX rabads program, which despite its DEC copyright, ULTRIX origin, and binary-only nature came with some BSD distributions). Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA13004 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:22:35 +1100 (EST) >From "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> Tue Jan 26 11:21:38 1999 Received: from biz1.mailsrvcs.net (biz1.gte.net [207.115.153.50]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA12999 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:22:27 +1100 (EST) Received: from p2350 ([208.250.164.80]) by biz1.mailsrvcs.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-40549L5000S0) with ESMTP id AAA24603 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 19:22:21 -0600 From: "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> To: <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: 4.4BSD Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 18:21:38 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19990126012214.AAA24603@p2350> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi all, why this version isn't in the pups archive ? cheers, emanuel Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA13171 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:05:32 +1100 (EST) >From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Tue Jan 26 12:05:12 1999 Received: from mail2.panix.com (mail2.panix.com [166.84.0.213]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA13165 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:05:22 +1100 (EST) Received: from panix7.panix.com (root(a)panix7.nyc.access.net [166.84.0.232]) by mail2.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixM1.3) with ESMTP id VAA17162 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:05:12 -0500 (EST) Received: (from tls@localhost) by panix7.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id VAA23416 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:05:12 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:05:12 -0500 From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Message-ID: <19990125210512.A22884(a)rek.tjls.com> Reply-To: tls(a)rek.tjls.com References: <19990126012214.AAA24603@p2350> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <19990126012214.AAA24603@p2350>; from emanuel stiebler on Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 06:21:38PM -0700 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 06:21:38PM -0700, emanuel stiebler wrote: > Hi all, > why this version isn't in the pups archive ? > > cheers, > emanuel It would be nice to have the pre-4.4 (was it 4.4-alpha?) and 4.4BSD distributions, as shipped by CSRG, in the archive. What would be even nicer would be the entire system as of the last time it was touched -- the AT&T-encumbered system which would correspond to the free 4.4BSD-Lite2 distribution which was the last public output from CSRG. Did anyone ever build a distribution of such a system? Is it feasible to do so now? I don't have a firm grasp on which architectures would actually compile and run as of that point in the SCCS files -- would VAX, using the old VM system? I'd assume hp300 would work, since it was the primary development platform, right? Had the LBL SPARC port been integrated? -- Thor Lancelot Simon tls(a)rek.tjls.com "And where do all these highways go, now that we are free?" Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA13220 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:21:38 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 5 months

Re: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I have added the EPROM image from my KA650-B V1.2 CPU to the VAX firmware <collection in Distributions/4bsd/odds-ends in the PUPS archive. Get that out of there fast, it's copyrighted firmware! Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA12960 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:11:38 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 5 months

KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Dear PUPS/TUHS members, I have added the EPROM image from my KA650-B V1.2 CPU to the VAX firmware collection in Distributions/4bsd/odds-ends in the PUPS archive. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 440-449-0299 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu

26 years, 5 months

DEC odds and ends

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Dear PUPS/TUHS members, I have just created a new directory in the 4BSD area of the PUPS archive, Distributions/4bsd/odds-ends. This directory contains various DEC odds and ends: microcodes, ROM images, diags, VMS/Ultrix booters and bits, etc. The following items are currently available: rabads.core Ultrix rabads program, pure core version for putting onto console media and loading via console commands. rabads.a.out Ultrix rabads program, a.out version for putting onto a UNIX filesystem and loading via UNIX boot. scsimfm.bin EPROM image from the SCSI/MFM daughterboard for KA42. This list is certain to grow very soon. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 440-449-0299 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu

26 years, 5 months

Quasijarus Project WWW page set update and change in passwd plans

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Dear PUPS/TUHS members, I have just updated the Quasijarus Project WWW page set, adding the features page listing all features added to the master source tree since the currently shipping release. You can find this new page at: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/features.html I have also changed my plans regarding the shadow and shared passwords. See: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/passwd.html Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Cellular phone: 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu

26 years, 5 months

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