TUHS

tuhs@tuhs.org

43 participants
6501 discussions

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> wrote: > I would definitely recommend that the firmware image is removed from the > PUPS Archive until it can be legally distributed to people without a DEC > software license. Presently there are no EPROM images on minnie. However, I'm far from the idea of denying my users the firmware upgrades they need just because of some stupid copyrights held by a company that doesn't even exist any more, so if you have an actual need for one of the EPROM images I have, I can E-mail it to you compressed and uuencoded. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA19626 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:36:07 +1100 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Jan 27 10:35:41 1999 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA19621 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:35:59 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id QAA13940 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:35:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:35:41 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199901270035.QAA13940(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > Johnny Billquist > Hmmm. This could well degenerate into a squabble. ;-) Yeah, it could. So enough said and (hopefully) it stops now. > While I run Unix on the VAXen I have, I sure wish someone had implemented > the MSCP BBR stuff for instance. Not event Ultrix does it properly, MSCP BBR is _hard_ and not documented well (or not documented at all). Come to think of it MSCP in general is difficult and not documented very well (Chris Torek's comments in the 'ra.c' driver are fun to read;)). Best solution I've found is to use a SCSI<->MSCP adaptor and let the adaptor do the BBR <g> Steven Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA19853 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:38:36 +1100 (EST) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Wed Jan 27 11:38:19 1999 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (trailing-edge.wdn.com [198.232.144.27]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA19848 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.cs.adfa.EDU.AU>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:38:25 +1100 (EST) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.cs.adfa.EDU.AU; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:38:19 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:38:19 -0500 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Message-Id: <990126203819.2020009f(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > While I run Unix on the VAXen I have, I sure wish someone had implemented > the MSCP BBR stuff for instance. Not event Ultrix does it properly, If you look at the commented sources for the DEC OS's, you'll see that it took them several minor version releases in order to get bad block replacement working passably. And there still remain situations that aren't handled well even in the best implementations. Tim. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA19979 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:11:21 +1100 (EST) >From "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> Wed Jan 27 05:12:31 1999 Received: from krdl.org.sg (rodin.krdl.org.sg [137.132.252.27]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA19973 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:11:08 +1100 (EST) Received: from mailhost.krdl.org.sg (mailbox.krdl.org.sg [137.132.247.30]) by krdl.org.sg (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA06573; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:16:51 +0800 (SGT) Received: from negara.nus.sg (negara [137.132.248.175]) by mailhost.krdl.org.sg (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA23639; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:10:57 +0800 (SGT) Received: (from joerg@localhost) by negara.nus.sg (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) id DAA00603; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:12:31 +0800 (SGT) Message-ID: <19990127031231.H496(a)krdl.org.sg> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:12:31 +0800 From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> To: Michael Sokolov <mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD References: <199901261944.OAA03412(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: <199901261944.OAA03412(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 02:44:12PM -0500 Organization: Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Singapore Project: SingAREN, the Singapore Advanced Research and Education Network Operating-System: ... drained by Solaris 7 Intel Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 02:44:12PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > That's exactly what I'm arguing! This is not a fight, this is research OS > development. I'm not stealing BSD, I'm contributing to it. Volunteering to do > the job of the principal maintainer of 4.3BSD-*, which no one has done since > 1988, is one of the greatest contributions one can make. Great. I'm glad we have you around to follow this mission. Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 8742582 Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Rm 3-65, C041 Fax: +65 7744990 21 Heng Mui Keng Terrace Pager: +65 96016020 Singapore 119613 Plan: Troubleshooting ATM Republic of Singapore Networks and Applications Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA20001 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:15:56 +1100 (EST) >From "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> Wed Jan 27 05:16:53 1999 Received: from krdl.org.sg (rodin.krdl.org.sg [137.132.252.27]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA19994 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:15:24 +1100 (EST) Received: from mailhost.krdl.org.sg (mailbox.krdl.org.sg [137.132.247.30]) by krdl.org.sg (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA06726; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:21:13 +0800 (SGT) Received: from negara.nus.sg (negara [137.132.248.175]) by mailhost.krdl.org.sg (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA24145; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:15:18 +0800 (SGT) Received: (from joerg@localhost) by negara.nus.sg (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) id DAA00610; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:16:53 +0800 (SGT) Message-ID: <19990127031653.I496(a)krdl.org.sg> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:16:53 +0800 From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> To: Michael Sokolov <mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD References: <199901261944.OAA03415(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: <199901261944.OAA03415(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 02:44:34PM -0500 Organization: Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Singapore Project: SingAREN, the Singapore Advanced Research and Education Network Operating-System: ... drained by Solaris 7 Intel Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 02:44:34PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > What I was saying that if someone, no matter who, tries to use the government's > oppression mechanism (formally known as intellectual property law) to obstruct > my work, I would defend myself by any means I have, and i would have the full > moral right to call that person or organization a twit. This is the non-profit > software development world we are talking about, and in this world people are > supposed to cooperate, not fight. Using legal quirks to obstruct the work of a > non-profit software developer for ideological reasons would probably be > universally agreed to be unethical. As I tried to explain earlier, nobody is actually doing that, not even attempting. BSDI lives in the commercial world and they have been protecting their work against other *commercial* use. On the *research* side, those same BSDI team members (again citing Mike Karels, Kirk McKusick and possibly others) keep *actively* supporting *BSD. There is no clash as such. People are *very* reasonable, especially when it comes to open technology, they have been in that business for long and appreciate it's value and impact. Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 8742582 Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Rm 3-65, C041 Fax: +65 7744990 21 Heng Mui Keng Terrace Pager: +65 96016020 Singapore 119613 Plan: Troubleshooting ATM Republic of Singapore Networks and Applications Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA20076 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:37:07 +1100 (EST) >From "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> Wed Jan 27 05:38:21 1999 Received: from krdl.org.sg (rodin.krdl.org.sg [137.132.252.27]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA20066 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:36:54 +1100 (EST) Received: from mailhost.krdl.org.sg (mailbox.krdl.org.sg [137.132.247.30]) by krdl.org.sg (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA07433; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:42:41 +0800 (SGT) Received: from negara.nus.sg (negara [137.132.248.175]) by mailhost.krdl.org.sg (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA26506; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:36:47 +0800 (SGT) Received: (from joerg@localhost) by negara.nus.sg (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) id DAA00622; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:38:21 +0800 (SGT) Message-ID: <19990127033821.K496(a)krdl.org.sg> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:38:21 +0800 From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> To: Michael Sokolov <mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image References: <199901270041.TAA03508(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: <199901270041.TAA03508(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 07:41:17PM -0500 Organization: Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Singapore Project: SingAREN, the Singapore Advanced Research and Education Network Operating-System: ... drained by Solaris 7 Intel Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 07:41:17PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Presently there are no EPROM images on minnie. However, I'm far from the idea > of denying my users the firmware upgrades they need just because of some stupid > copyrights held by a company that doesn't even exist any more, so if you have > an actual need for one of the EPROM images I have, I can E-mail it to you > compressed and uuencoded. With a different tone and manner people at Compaq/DEC might actually be quite willing to support archival of their work (which is protected by law) for the purpose of tracking history. It never hurts to show curtesy and ask politely. If I were you, especially as the maintainer of CSRG work, I'd certainly give it a try ... Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 8742582 Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Rm 3-65, C041 Fax: +65 7744990 21 Heng Mui Keng Terrace Pager: +65 96016020 Singapore 119613 Plan: Troubleshooting ATM Republic of Singapore Networks and Applications Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA20167 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:49:24 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jan 27 12:51:07 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA20162 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:49:17 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA01515 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:51:07 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901270251.NAA01515(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: PUPS Mail list: rules of behaviour To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:51:07 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk All, I hate to do this, however I think we could do with just a few rules of behaviour for the PUPS mail list. Here we go... 1) The mailing list is for discussion on various topic areas related to UNIX history, its development, care and feeding of all UNIX systems and their hardware, and announcements of useful information related to the above. It is generally inclusive, rather than exclusive. However.... 2) There should be little or no discussion of major systems' development, including announcements of new versions. Instead, systems developers should create a communications channel to target their own audience. For example, 2.11BSD has the newsgroup comp.bugs.2bsd. To that end, I have just created a mailing list for Quasijarus, quasijarus(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au, and associated Majordomo structures. Quasijarus users should join this list so that developments and announcements about this system can reach them. In other words, interested parties are expected to monitor these mailing lists or newsgroups, in order to follow development and announcements. 3) Discussion is to be civil and not religious, where possible. There have been a large number of UNIX systems and flavours. There is no single `best' system. 4) Offensive postings: if a person's mail postings offends someone, then they should email me, the list maintainer. If I get a number of complaints, I will ask the original author to not be so offensive. If I need to warn a person twice, then I will begin to censor their list postings. I will repost this message if/when it becomes necessary. I am still collection suggestions with regards to the charter of the list and if we need to make separate lists etc. The rules above, though, apply to the list as it is now. Thanks all, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA20302 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:30:14 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 3 months

Re: 4.4BSD

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> wrote: > > Eventually I will support almost every VAX ever made, just like Ultrix. There ^^^^^^ > > is no reason why it can't be done. If Ultrix, a close 4.3BSD derivative, could > > do this, so can 4.3BSD-* itself. > > FYI. Ultrix don't support every VAX ever made. > Only VMS does. See the line of carets up there. BTW, if someone with the hardware were willing to be a guinea pig, I would readily add support for KA660 and KA670, making 4.3BSD-Quasijarus support even MORE hardware than Ultrix in this particular area. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA19598 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:27:38 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 3 months

Re: 4.4BSD

by Johnny Billquist

On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote: Sigh. I guess I shouldn't get into a new squabble with/over Solokov, but here I go again... > On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 03:40:19AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > > Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote: > > > > You may believe whatever you want, but I will only remark that several very > > prominent VAX hardware gurus (some of them on this list) support my work very > > eagerly. Whatever you or the NetBSD gang may believe, my True UNIX is the only > > UNIX system that is really a VAX OS and can truly drive a VAX the way it's > > supposed to be driven. I'd argue that VMS is the true driver of VAXen, and nothing else... Unix is kindof a side track altogether. No matter what religious beliefs you have. > When it "drives" most VAXen, I encourage you to let me know. It won't even > run on most of the VAXen I have, and I don't expect that to change any > time soon. But if your definition of "the way it's supposed to be driven" > is "not at all", I guess I have no quibble with your logic, at least. I > want support for the hardware I own, and features like mmap() and NFS. > Between those, I think you'll find quite a bit of the bloat you're complaining > about. I also want some user-convenience features like dynamic libraries and > a compiler that can actually optimize code worth a damn, even if it's GCC, > which I think you'd probably find even more objectionable. So any system > you produce is not likely to be useful to me. Let's agree to disagree > about this. No, Solokov isn't likely to please you. > > > Despite the great temptation to do so, neither the NetBSD nor the FreeBSD > > > project have taken up the mantle of CSRG [...] > > > > Excellent! This gives me the luxury of being free from competitors. > > Look, if you're going to mixmaster my text like this, I'm not about to > respond to yours any more and give you more material to play with. As > I said, I have an interest in old Unices mostly for historical reasons; > you appear to have an interest because you want to branch new development > from them -- fine, that's as may be, who cares? There's certainly room > for both points of view, and I fail to see why you're being so combative. Solokov has in the past been more than just combative. I'd say he's more or less on the hate list of a lot of people on the NetBSD/vax list for raving all the time. He finally ceased posting there, to most everyones relief. Unfortunately he started posting here instead. Couldn't we do a real split of the pdp-11-stuff, and all other historical Unix stuff. I'm really not interested in historical Unix. I'm first and foremost interested in pdp-11, that's why I got into this list. Unix is a secondary issue to me, and historical Unix isn't my playfield. The other option would be to get out of this list totally, but some people actually need help with pdp-11 stuff, and there I can contribute. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id HAA17274 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 07:52:20 +1100 (EST) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Wed Jan 27 06:52:00 1999 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA17269 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 07:52:10 +1100 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA25319; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:52:01 +0100 Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:52:00 +0100 (MET) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: Michael Sokolov <mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD In-Reply-To: <199901261945.OAA03418(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.990126215000.23686D-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Eventually I will support almost every VAX ever made, just like Ultrix. There > is no reason why it can't be done. If Ultrix, a close 4.3BSD derivative, could > do this, so can 4.3BSD-* itself. FYI. Ultrix don't support every VAX ever made. Only VMS does. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA17935 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:24:31 +1100 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Jan 27 08:23:31 1999 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA17927 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:24:22 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id OAA13198 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:23:31 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:23:31 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199901262223.OAA13198(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi Johnny - > From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> > Sigh. I guess I shouldn't get into a new squabble with/over Solokov, but > here I go again... Netbsd's mailing list was rendered unreadable for quite a while ;-( > I'd argue that VMS is the true driver of VAXen, and nothing else... > Unix is kindof a side track altogether. No matter what religious beliefs I maintain the opposite. VMS _was_ (past tense) the driver of VAXEN but that was due to Ken "UNIX is Snake Oil" Olsen. Since DEC is defunct and VMS is effectively no longer, I'd argue that UNIX is the winner/driver. Are Vaxen even being made any longer? The ALPHA is what is driving Compaq/dec now. > > I want support for the hardware I own, and features like mmap() and NFS. > > Between those, I think you'll find quite a bit of the bloat you're ... Amen! Adding NFS to the kernel about doubles the size of the kernel. > Unfortunately he started posting here instead. ;-( > Couldn't we do a real split of the pdp-11-stuff, and all other historical > Unix stuff. I'm really not interested in historical Unix. I'm first and > foremost interested in pdp-11, that's why I got into this list. Unix is a Hear hear! PUPS started out with the emphasis on PDP-11s based UNIX although other OSs would be welcome (the RT11 and RSTS folks have their own forums though). I doubt anyone would be upset if someone posted an RSX11D question to PUPS but I think many of us are getting tired of a proposed new/wonderous "4.4BSD". Steven Schultz Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA17955 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:24:58 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jan 27 08:26:24 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA17948 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:24:51 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA05633; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:26:24 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901262226.JAA05633(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image In-Reply-To: <199901260125.UAA03071(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Jan 25, 1999 8:25:12 pm" To: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:26:24 +1100 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Michael Sokolov: > allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent) wrote: > > > Get that out of there fast, it's copyrighted firmware! > > The PUPS archive already contains some PDP-11 boot/diag/etc. odds and ends. > Why not have VAX ones too? Just some clarification here. There is a section in the PUPS Archive which is not readily accesible to normal S/Key users of the archive. This is mainly used by those volunteers who are helping to distribute the archive, and for other sundry stuff. If a volunteer puts something in there which is copyright, then they must understand that the legal responsibility is theirs and theirs alone. The same thing applies to the main archive. I would definitely recommend that the firmware image is removed from the PUPS Archive until it can be legally distributed to people without a DEC software license. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA18138 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:34:55 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jan 27 08:36:27 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA18130 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:34:48 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA05730 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:36:27 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901262236.JAA05730(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Why not 4.4BSD? To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:36:27 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Just my $0.02 worth. I haven't moved the majority of 4BSD stuff into the PUPS Archive mainly to give Kirk a chance to sell his 4 CD set containing all the CSRG releases. He's done a lot of hard work a) writing BSD code over the years and b) finding, transcribing from tape, and organising the various releases onto the CD set. I am always prepared to distribute sub-parts of the 4CD set to people if they want it, and I'd be very happy to put into the PUPS Archive the most popular 4BSD releases. In fact, this has been done, to some extent. I would resist the urge to distribute the entire CSRG collection either via media or through the on-line archive, at least until Kirk has been recompensed for his work. However, Emanuel let me know exactly which 4BSD release you'd like to see, and it will be added! Cheers, Warren P.S Also, a plea for unity w.r.t this mailing list, or at the very least a sense of restraint and _understanding_ of other people's viewpoints. Thanks. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA18201 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:37:09 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jan 27 08:38:32 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA18193 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:37:01 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA05749; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:38:32 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901262238.JAA05749(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: UNIX V6 Enhancements/Games In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9901260824400.19662-100000(a)dizzy.cs.fiu.edu> from alejandro gonzalez at "Jan 26, 1999 8:27:15 am" To: agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu (alejandro gonzalez) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:38:32 +1100 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by alejandro gonzalez: > > Reading the Unix Summary, I have noticed that some packages are > distributed as Enhancements: Like TROFF, or some of the Games, and not in > the orginial distribution > > The Unix System the comes with the tapes does not come with Man, Troff, > etc.. Is any of this extra stuff in the Pups Archive? If so, Where? > > Alex All we have are the tapes as donated to us by Dennis Ritchie and Ken Wellsch. I don't know if a copy of the enhancements still exist. However, they may have been part of PWB UNIX, which was around at the same time as Research UNIX. Have a look in the Distributions/usdl section for PWB UNIX. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA18317 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:42:50 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jan 27 08:44:19 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA18307 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:42:41 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA05790 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:44:19 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901262244.JAA05790(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Split of PUPS mail list?? To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:44:19 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk All, Both Steven Schultz and Johnny Billquist have suggested a split of the existing PUPS mailing list into a number of mailing lists. As the maintainer of the list, I am not in a position to force a decision either way: instead, I think it should be driven by the list members. Please email me your suggestions, desires etc w.r.t this issue. I will post a summary sometime next week, and we can then decide what to do. Many thanks, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA18975 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:21:28 +1100 (EST) >From "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> Wed Jan 27 09:20:17 1999 Received: from biz1.mailsrvcs.net (biz1.gte.net [207.115.153.50]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA18970 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:21:20 +1100 (EST) Received: from p2350 ([208.254.186.71]) by biz1.mailsrvcs.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-40549L5000S0) with ESMTP id AAA10955; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:21:15 -0600 From: "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> To: <wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au>, "Unix Heritage Society" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Why not 4.4BSD? Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:20:17 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19990126232114.AAA10955@p2350> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi, ---------- > From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> > To: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> > Subject: Why not 4.4BSD? > Date: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 3:36 PM > I haven't moved the majority of 4BSD stuff into the PUPS Archive mainly to > give Kirk a chance to sell his 4 CD set containing all the CSRG releases. > He's done a lot of hard work a) writing BSD code over the years and > b) finding, transcribing from tape, and organising the various releases onto > the CD set. That's the explanation i waited for, and i understand that. > I would resist the urge to distribute the entire CSRG collection either > via media or through the on-line archive, at least until Kirk has been > recompensed for his work. NO problem with that. > However, Emanuel let me know exactly which 4BSD release you'd like to see, > and it will be added! Sorry, for the "noise" following my I thought "simple" question. I only wanted to know, why the 4.4 releases were not in the archive. They are part of the AU license anyway, and i thought, they are missing. > P.S Also, a plea for unity w.r.t this mailing list, or at the very least > a sense of restraint and _understanding_ of other people's viewpoints. I prefer one list, THIS one. The problems we had in the last 24 hours are my fault. Sorry for this, i should know that sometimes a "dumb" question start a flame/war about color/religions & BSD versions. Sorry about this. emanuel So a now PLEASE back to our business, enjoying our nice PDP's ;-)) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA19191 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:48:18 +1100 (EST) >From Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Wed Jan 27 09:46:16 1999 Received: from post.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA19185 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:48:09 +1100 (EST) Received: from [158.152.152.109] (helo=falstaf.demon.co.uk) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #1) id 105IDD-0002AZ-00; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:48:04 +0000 Message-ID: <Nws0nOAIPlr2EwLA(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:46:16 +0000 To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> From: Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: Split of PUPS mail list?? References: <199901262244.JAA05790(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In-Reply-To: <199901262244.JAA05790(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike (32) Version 4.01 <YSkKJATYm0AxAbv6xUlJqScVOx> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In message <199901262244.JAA05790(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>, Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> writes >All, > Both Steven Schultz and Johnny Billquist have suggested a split >of the existing PUPS mailing list into a number of mailing lists. As the >maintainer of the list, I am not in a position to force a decision either >way: instead, I think it should be driven by the list members. > >Please email me your suggestions, desires etc w.r.t this issue. I will >post a summary sometime next week, and we can then decide what to do. > >Many thanks, > > Warren FWITW I vote for a split, if only to make the filing easier. If people feel as strongly as some do about not wanting one of the lists then fine, that makes it easier. Something similar is in place at NetBSD if you want just notices, posts on one type of OS or whatever. Cheers Robin ____________________________________________________________________ Robin Birch robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk M1ASU/2E0ARJ Old computers and radios always welcome Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA19541 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:14:34 +1100 (EST) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Wed Jan 27 10:14:00 1999 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA19535 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:14:23 +1100 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA29902; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 01:14:03 +0100 Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 01:14:00 +0100 (MET) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD In-Reply-To: <199901262223.OAA13198(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.990127010122.29540B-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > Hi Johnny - Hi there, Steven. > > From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> > > I'd argue that VMS is the true driver of VAXen, and nothing else... > > Unix is kindof a side track altogether. No matter what religious beliefs > > I maintain the opposite. VMS _was_ (past tense) the driver of > VAXEN but that was due to Ken "UNIX is Snake Oil" Olsen. Since DEC > is defunct and VMS is effectively no longer, I'd argue that UNIX is > the winner/driver. Are Vaxen even being made any longer? The ALPHA > is what is driving Compaq/dec now. Hmmm. This could well degenerate into a squabble. ;-) Let's just say that VAXen are still being sold, as far as I know. VMS are still being sold. However COMPAQ sure don't push for VAXen, so I expect them to die soon. Alpha is the main target of VMS these days for sure. But there still exists VAXen that no Unix can run, leaving only VMS. And also, some stuff just isn't utilized that well under Ultrix, which means VMS is the more developed, and supported OS. While I run Unix on the VAXen I have, I sure wish someone had implemented the MSCP BBR stuff for instance. Not event Ultrix does it properly, relying on a separate, manual program for it. And let's not rack down on Ken Olsen and what he said/didn't say here. :-) > > Couldn't we do a real split of the pdp-11-stuff, and all other historical > > Unix stuff. I'm really not interested in historical Unix. I'm first and > > foremost interested in pdp-11, that's why I got into this list. Unix is a > > Hear hear! PUPS started out with the emphasis on PDP-11s based UNIX > although other OSs would be welcome (the RT11 and RSTS folks have > their own forums though). I doubt anyone would be upset if someone > posted an RSX11D question to PUPS but I think many of us are getting > tired of a proposed new/wonderous "4.4BSD". Me for one wouldn't mind, even if I think the correct forum would be info-pdp11, but then again, people usually seem happy to just find *any* forum for pdp-11 stuff. I don't mind talking about V[0-7] here, even though they are older than 2.11BSD, but really, BSD[3,4] isn't what I'm in here for. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA19584 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:26:45 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 3 months

Re: 4.4BSD

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote: > When it "drives" most VAXen, I encourage you to let me know. It won't even > run on most of the VAXen I have, and I don't expect that to change any > time soon. Eventually I will support almost every VAX ever made, just like Ultrix. There is no reason why it can't be done. If Ultrix, a close 4.3BSD derivative, could do this, so can 4.3BSD-* itself. If you want to speed it up, tell me what hardware do you have, and maybe then we can replace this flame war with a fruitful technical discussion of its buses, devices, and registers, eventually culminating with writing of the necessary drivers. The primary difficulty with expanding hardware support is the lack of hardware. If you have the hardware and want it supported, volunteer to be a guinea pig for driver testing. I already have several ideas on how to add support for certain machines, and if someone volunteers to be a guinea pig, I will be happy to send him/her some code to try firing up. Oh, BTW, it should already be possible to run my system's userland on almost every VAX ever made by running it atop of an Ultrix kernel. Ultrix is a close 4.3BSD derivative, and its system calls are a proper superset of the 4.3BSD ones. Ultrix runs 4.3BSD binaries natively, without invoking any special "emulation" or "compatibility code", since every syscall that is native for 4.3BSD is also native for Ultrix. A system composed of an Ultrix kernel and the userland from my latest release (without recompilation!) should run even better than pure Ultrix. > But if your definition of "the way it's supposed to be driven" > is "not at all", I guess I have no quibble with your logic, at least. No, this is not my definition. > I > want support for the hardware I own This will be done if you are willing to cooperate. > and features like mmap() and NFS. Sorry about mmap(), but I definitely will implement NFS. > Between those, I think you'll find quite a bit of the bloat you're > complaining about. Hardware support expansion, NFS, and even mmap() affect the kernel only. 4.3BSD-Reno blows up the userland by a factor 2, and 4.4BSD is even worse. > You do understand that "CSRG's own convention" involved increasing the value > of the "BSD" symbol in the user namespace with each release? I just checked, and CSRG did not bump this symbol for the 4.3BSD-Tahoe release, it still says 43, just like for plain 4.3BSD. If CSRG didn't bump it for Tahoe, I don't have to bump it for Quasijarus either. > As > I said, I have an interest in old Unices mostly for historical reasons; > you appear to have an interest because you want to branch new development > from them -- fine, that's as may be, who cares? There's certainly room > for both points of view, and I fail to see why you're being so combative. I'm being combative only when others are. If someone challenges my job as the current principal maintainer of Berkeley VAX UNIX, I have to defend it, that's all. > I personally don't read the statement "If you want CSRG, here I am" quite > like that, but whatever. You might not want to say things like that in > the future if you don't want to confuse and possibly irritate a fair > number of people who have a great deal of respect for CSRG and what they > did. I respectfully disagree. I'm not taking any credit away from CSRG, but just because Marshall Kirk McKusick and his fellows no longer do this job doesn't mean that I can't do it. As I said, Kirk has practically passed the torch to me himself. > It's nice to see someone working on any Berkeley UNIX. Exactly, and let's switch from flames to something more useful so that I and other 4.3BSD-* contributors can do our jobs and prove ourselves with deeds instead of words. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/

26 years, 3 months

Re: 4.4BSD

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote: > You do understand that the "some twit" you're talking about is, at least > by extension, Mike Karels? Why? He is not trying to tell me that I can't do my job. I have nothing against him and BSDI, and since he has never voiced any protests against my work, I'm assuming that he has nothing against it either. What I was saying that if someone, no matter who, tries to use the government's oppression mechanism (formally known as intellectual property law) to obstruct my work, I would defend myself by any means I have, and i would have the full moral right to call that person or organization a twit. This is the non-profit software development world we are talking about, and in this world people are supposed to cooperate, not fight. Using legal quirks to obstruct the work of a non-profit software developer for ideological reasons would probably be universally agreed to be unethical. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA17008 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 06:31:22 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 3 months

Re: 4.4BSD

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Joerg B. Micheel <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> wrote: > I don't think UCB has been using this term for 15 years. 1995 - 1980 = 15 1980 is the year of the 3BSD release, the first release from CSRG that's an actual operating system kernel and not just a package of userland enhancements. If you include the latter (1BSD and 2BSD) too, it'll be more than 15 years. > That > is because research is a different world from commercial efforts. There is no > such thing as "this is BSD / not BSD" as compared to the "one true JAVA(tm)". > You cannot steal BSD, you can only contribute to it. That's exactly what I'm arguing! This is not a fight, this is research OS development. I'm not stealing BSD, I'm contributing to it. Volunteering to do the job of the principal maintainer of 4.3BSD-*, which no one has done since 1988, is one of the greatest contributions one can make. Marshall Kirk McKusick tells me that he started the same way: first a contributor, then the principal maintainer. He didn't just assume the title, he earned it. I followed the same path. I have been doing miscellaneous work in preparation for this project for the past 3 years. I became the principal maintainer and architect only when I actually started doing this job, i.e., maintaining the master SCCS tree and making architectural decisions. I have a proposal: Let's end this pointless flame war. Titles are earned, not assumed. So far the only people participating in it are the ones who have never actually tried my system on a VAX. It's funny that you guys started challenging my maintainer job only now and not when I made my first release a month ago. When I made my release, there was absolutely no dissent from anyone. Instead, I was getting direct E-mails from several people asking me how to install it on their VAXen. There is only one way to earn the high title of the principal maintainer: do a good job at it. The former CSRG folks certainly did this. If you believe that I haven't done anough for VAX BSD to earn the title of its maintainer, how about ending this flame war and letting me go back to work so that I can do my job and prove myself with deeds instead of words? > And since the core team of BSDI today > consist of people formerly involved in BSD, what problem should there be they > keep calling their work BSD ? No problem at all! All I'm saying is that despite what someone has suggested, they have no authority to bar others from doing the same. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA16993 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 06:30:54 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 3 months

Re: 4.4BSD

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> wrote: > You can trademark anything that hasn't already been trademarked. But if a system has already existed under a certain name for 15 years, just because some twit suddenly decided to trademark it doesn't mean that the original author and copyright owner suddenly has to change its name. If some twit decides to trademark the name Michael Sokolov, that doesn't mean that I suddenly have to change my name. I have had this name for all my 19 years and will keep it for as long as I live. The same with BSD. UC Berkeley has been using this name for 15 years. Just because some phased BSDI twit suddenly decided to trademark it doesn't mean that Berkeley suddenly has to stop using it. True, I am not UC Berkeley, but I am working on UC Berkeley's system in full compliance with Berkeley's license terms. Since the UC Berkeley system is still called BSD, so is mine, since my system is just a newer version of the Berkeley one. My right, both legal and ethical, to call my system a newer version of BSD or Berkeley UNIX stems from the right to modify. The right to modify includes _any_ kind of development work, including the possiblity of becoming the new principal maintainer. > > BSDI has no rights whatsoever to the code copyrighted by the Regents > > of University of California. > > Of course they have. The rights are described in the Berkeley > License. I meant that they have no exclusive rights. They have no right to say what I can or cannot do with the UC Berkeley system. Once Berkeley gave me and everyone else the rights to redistribute and modify, no one can take these rights away from me. Not even UC Berkeley itself, since I didn't sign any agreements that they could terminate. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id VAA15079 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:19:41 +1100 (EST) >From "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> Tue Jan 26 13:20:46 1999 Received: from krdl.org.sg (rodin.krdl.org.sg [137.132.252.27]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA15074 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:19:22 +1100 (EST) Received: from mailhost.krdl.org.sg (mailbox.krdl.org.sg [137.132.247.30]) by krdl.org.sg (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id SAA22623; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:25:09 +0800 (SGT) Received: from negara.nus.sg (negara [137.132.248.175]) by mailhost.krdl.org.sg (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA07622; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:19:14 +0800 (SGT) Received: (from joerg@localhost) by negara.nus.sg (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) id LAA00541; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:20:46 +0800 (SGT) Message-ID: <19990126112046.D496(a)krdl.org.sg> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:20:46 +0800 From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> To: Michael Sokolov <mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD References: <199901261008.FAA03320(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: <199901261008.FAA03320(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 05:08:17AM -0500 Organization: Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Singapore Project: SingAREN, the Singapore Advanced Research and Education Network Operating-System: ... drained by Solaris 7 Intel Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 05:08:17AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > But if a system has already existed under a certain name for 15 years, just > because some twit suddenly decided to trademark it doesn't mean that the > original author and copyright owner suddenly has to change its name. If some > twit decides to trademark the name Michael Sokolov, that doesn't mean that I > suddenly have to change my name. I have had this name for all my 19 years and > will keep it for as long as I live. The same with BSD. UC Berkeley has been > using this name for 15 years. Just because some phased BSDI twit suddenly > decided to trademark it doesn't mean that Berkeley suddenly has to stop using > it. True, I am not UC Berkeley, but I am working on UC Berkeley's system in > full compliance with Berkeley's license terms. Since the UC Berkeley system is > still called BSD, so is mine, since my system is just a newer version of the > Berkeley one. My right, both legal and ethical, to call my system a newer > version of BSD or Berkeley UNIX stems from the right to modify. The right to > modify includes _any_ kind of development work, including the possiblity of > becoming the new principal maintainer. Well, not sure I should actually drop into the discussion of experts, but ... I don't think UCB has been using this term for 15 years. It was the group of people around Bill Joy, and later Kirk McKusick (many important names omitted) that had to write *something* onto the tapes shipped with the software. That is because research is a different world from commercial efforts. There is no such thing as "this is BSD / not BSD" as compared to the "one true JAVA(tm)". You cannot steal BSD, you can only contribute to it. BSDI is residing in the commercial world. I'm unsure about the motivations for the trademark (I lost contact with BSDI around the time they renamed the system BS/DOS), but I'm pretty sure that Rob Kolstad and colleagues meant it to protect the name against another commercial use as pure "BSD". It is not meant against any freeware *BSD (reading FreeBSD sources you might figure that some of the BSDI team members, namely Mike Karels and Kirk McKusick, have actually made contributions to the freeware effort). And since the core team of BSDI today consist of people formerly involved in BSD, what problem should there be they keep calling their work BSD ? They have done an excellent job and everybody (including Sun and recently other SVR4 folks) acknowledges their contributions. Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 8742582 Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Rm 3-65, C041 Fax: +65 7744990 21 Heng Mui Keng Terrace Pager: +65 96016020 Singapore 119613 Plan: Troubleshooting ATM Republic of Singapore Networks and Applications Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id VAA15148 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:42:22 +1100 (EST) >From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Tue Jan 26 20:42:06 1999 Received: from mail2.panix.com (mail2.panix.com [166.84.0.213]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA15143 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:42:13 +1100 (EST) Received: from panix7.panix.com (root(a)panix7.nyc.access.net [166.84.0.232]) by mail2.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixM1.3) with ESMTP id FAA00791 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:42:07 -0500 (EST) Received: (from tls@localhost) by panix7.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id FAA14725 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:42:07 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:42:06 -0500 From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Message-ID: <19990126054206.A13245(a)rek.tjls.com> Reply-To: tls(a)rek.tjls.com References: <199901260840.DAA03265(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199901260840.DAA03265(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 03:40:19AM -0500 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 03:40:19AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote: > > You may believe whatever you want, but I will only remark that several very > prominent VAX hardware gurus (some of them on this list) support my work very > eagerly. Whatever you or the NetBSD gang may believe, my True UNIX is the only > UNIX system that is really a VAX OS and can truly drive a VAX the way it's > supposed to be driven. > When it "drives" most VAXen, I encourage you to let me know. It won't even run on most of the VAXen I have, and I don't expect that to change any time soon. But if your definition of "the way it's supposed to be driven" is "not at all", I guess I have no quibble with your logic, at least. I want support for the hardware I own, and features like mmap() and NFS. Between those, I think you'll find quite a bit of the bloat you're complaining about. I also want some user-convenience features like dynamic libraries and a compiler that can actually optimize code worth a damn, even if it's GCC, which I think you'd probably find even more objectionable. So any system you produce is not likely to be useful to me. Let's agree to disagree about this. > > All that I ask is that you not touch the value of the "BSD" symbol which is > > exposed to the userland C namespace. The chaos which would ensue should > > a "later" version of BSD appear which didn't support the full 4.4BSD feature > > set is horrifying to contemplate. > > Don't worry, I'm not planning on doing that. Although I do not consider 4.4BSD > to be True UNIX, I do acknowledge that it exists, and I do respect the laws of > arithmetics and sequential numbering, so I don't plan on using numbers like > 4.5BSD or 5BSD. Instead, I follow CSRG's own convention of calling 4.3-followup > systems 4.3BSD-BlahBlahBlah, just like they did with 4.3BSD-Tahoe. You do understand that "CSRG's own convention" involved increasing the value of the "BSD" symbol in the user namespace with each release? I'm just asking that you be careful not to produce a system which would be difficult to distinguish from other systems with a very different feature matrix. > > > Despite the great temptation to do so, neither the NetBSD nor the FreeBSD > > project have taken up the mantle of CSRG [...] > > Excellent! This gives me the luxury of being free from competitors. Look, if you're going to mixmaster my text like this, I'm not about to respond to yours any more and give you more material to play with. As I said, I have an interest in old Unices mostly for historical reasons; you appear to have an interest because you want to branch new development from them -- fine, that's as may be, who cares? There's certainly room for both points of view, and I fail to see why you're being so combative. [...] > First of all, I didn't say "I'm CSRG", I said that I am CSRG's legitimate and > authorized successor. Second, there is nothing in the words "Computer Systems > Research Group" that is limited to Berkeley. Any group of researchers could > conceivably come up with that name. However, doing that would be extremely > confusing, therefore, I don't want to do that. I personally don't read the statement "If you want CSRG, here I am" quite like that, but whatever. You might not want to say things like that in the future if you don't want to confuse and possibly irritate a fair number of people who have a great deal of respect for CSRG and what they did. But that free advice is probably worth what you paid for it. > Check out the Quasijarus features page: > > http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/features.html > > So far the list is not that long, but keep in mind that the work started less > than a month ago. It's nice to see someone working on any Berkeley UNIX. Thor Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id VAA15170 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:44:12 +1100 (EST) >From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Tue Jan 26 20:43:58 1999 Received: from mail1.panix.com (mail1.panix.com [166.84.0.212]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA15165 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:44:03 +1100 (EST) Received: from panix7.panix.com (root(a)panix7.nyc.access.net [166.84.0.232]) by mail1.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixM1.3) with ESMTP id FAA10337 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:43:58 -0500 (EST) Received: (from tls@localhost) by panix7.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id FAA14928 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:43:58 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:43:58 -0500 From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Message-ID: <19990126054358.B13245(a)rek.tjls.com> Reply-To: tls(a)rek.tjls.com References: <199901261008.FAA03320(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199901261008.FAA03320(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 05:08:17AM -0500 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 05:08:17AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> wrote: > > > You can trademark anything that hasn't already been trademarked. > > But if a system has already existed under a certain name for 15 years, just > because some twit suddenly decided to trademark it doesn't mean that the > original author and copyright owner suddenly has to change its name. If some You do understand that the "some twit" you're talking about is, at least by extension, Mike Karels? Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id AAA15631 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 00:27:29 +1100 (EST) >From alejandro gonzalez <agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu> Tue Jan 26 23:27:15 1999 Received: from ferret.cs.fiu.edu (ferret.cs.fiu.edu [131.94.125.231]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA15626 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 00:27:20 +1100 (EST) Received: from dizzy.cs.fiu.edu (dizzy.cs.fiu.edu [131.94.131.2]) by ferret.cs.fiu.edu (8.9.1/FIU-CS-1.1) with ESMTP id IAA04796 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:27:15 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:27:15 -0500 (EST) From: alejandro gonzalez <agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: UNIX V6 Enhancements/Games In-Reply-To: <199901260317.AA02518(a)world.std.com> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9901260824400.19662-100000(a)dizzy.cs.fiu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Reading the Unix Summary, I have noticed that some packages are distributed as Enhancements: Like TROFF, or some of the Games, and not in the orginial distribution The Unix System the comes with the tapes does not come with Man, Troff, etc.. Is any of this extra stuff in the Pups Archive? If so, Where? Thanks alot, Alex ********************************* Alejandro Gonzalez HPDRC Research Assistant NASA Regional Application Center agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu ********************************* Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA16980 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 06:30:36 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 3 months

Re: 4.4BSD

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> wrote: > Now you mention this, I seem to remember that BSDI registered the name > BSD as a trade mark, so you wouldn't be able to even if you wanted to. That's nonsense. You can't trademark something that isn't even yours. BSDI has no rights whatsoever to the code copyrighted by the Regents of University of California. The BSD license agreement explicitly allows unrestricted modification and distribution of modified versions. Incrementing the version number is one of the most natural operations a developer modifying the system can do. If I were to use CSRG's final 1995 code as my starting point, I would indeed call my system 4.5BSD, and I would have the full right to do so. The only reason I do not and cannot call my system 4.5BSD, 5BSD, or whatever is because I'm tmachining the SCCS tree back to 1988, nullifying 4.4BSD. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id TAA14866 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:49:29 +1100 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Jan 26 18:49:16 1999 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA14861 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:49:21 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id TAA05782; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:19:17 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id TAA94514; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:19:16 +1030 (CST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:19:16 +1030 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: Michael Sokolov <mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Message-ID: <19990126191916.A66239(a)freebie.lemis.com> References: <199901260840.DAA03267(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199901260840.DAA03267(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 03:40:40AM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tuesday, 26 January 1999 at 3:40:40 -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> wrote: > >> Now you mention this, I seem to remember that BSDI registered the name >> BSD as a trade mark, so you wouldn't be able to even if you wanted to. > > That's nonsense. You can't trademark something that isn't even > yours. You can trademark anything that hasn't already been trademarked. > BSDI has no rights whatsoever to the code copyrighted by the Regents > of University of California. Of course they have. The rights are described in the Berkeley License. > The BSD license agreement explicitly allows unrestricted > modification and distribution of modified versions. Precisely. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id UAA15026 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:54:41 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 3 months

Re: 4.4BSD

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote: > I frankly consider this to be silly, somewhat presumptious, and, for myself, > at least, a waste of time. But if it's something _you_ want to do, I > encourage you to do it, I suppose. You may believe whatever you want, but I will only remark that several very prominent VAX hardware gurus (some of them on this list) support my work very eagerly. Whatever you or the NetBSD gang may believe, my True UNIX is the only UNIX system that is really a VAX OS and can truly drive a VAX the way it's supposed to be driven. > All that I ask is that you not touch the value of the "BSD" symbol which is > exposed to the userland C namespace. The chaos which would ensue should > a "later" version of BSD appear which didn't support the full 4.4BSD feature > set is horrifying to contemplate. Don't worry, I'm not planning on doing that. Although I do not consider 4.4BSD to be True UNIX, I do acknowledge that it exists, and I do respect the laws of arithmetics and sequential numbering, so I don't plan on using numbers like 4.5BSD or 5BSD. Instead, I follow CSRG's own convention of calling 4.3-followup systems 4.3BSD-BlahBlahBlah, just like they did with 4.3BSD-Tahoe. > Despite the great temptation to do so, neither the NetBSD nor the FreeBSD > project have taken up the mantle of CSRG [...] Excellent! This gives me the luxury of being free from competitors. > History is history. Yes, history is history, and I respect it as such. I'm not trying to abuse my write access to the 4BSD collection and maliciously modify some preserved tape image without anyone's knowledge. However, there is nothing in the world that prevents a developer from creating a new version of system from an old one. If there is an SCCS file with deltas ranging from 1.1 to 7.16, there is absolutely nothing in the world preventing a developer with legitimate authorized write access to that file from checking in delta 7.17. I am a legitimate authorized Berkeley UNIX developer (actually the principal one at the present time). My title as the principal maintainer has been legitimized and blessed by the previous CSRG maintainer. > Pretending > to be an organization which doesn't exist... First of all, I didn't say "I'm CSRG", I said that I am CSRG's legitimate and authorized successor. Second, there is nothing in the words "Computer Systems Research Group" that is limited to Berkeley. Any group of researchers could conceivably come up with that name. However, doing that would be extremely confusing, therefore, I don't want to do that. > [...] gets very little useful work done. Check out the Quasijarus features page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/features.html So far the list is not that long, but keep in mind that the work started less than a month ago. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id TAA14823 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:27:01 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 3 months

VAX EPROM upgrades

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Dear VAX users, Due to the storm of protests, the method of distribution of VAX EPROM upgrades has changed from the PUPS archive to direct uuencoded E-mail. If you require an EPROM upgrade for your VAX in order to run a UNIX software distribution obtained from me, please contant me via ARPA Internet SMTP mail and I will send you the EPROM image, compressed and uuencoded. I currently have the images for KA650-B V1.2 and KA42 SCSI/MFM daughterboard. The VAX odds and ends directory in the PUPS archive will still contain the soft-loaded microcode files and booters, which have already been freely distributed with different VAX UNIX systems (either 4.3BSD-* or BSD derivatives like MIT's Athena-4.3BSD). Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id TAA14811 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:26:42 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 3 months

Re: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Let's look at things from the practical viewpoint, OK? One of my goals is to establish a repository containing the latest available microcode revision for every machine supported by my UNIX system. Why? As you may remember from our extensive phone discussions, UNIX is quite picky about which hardware to run on. In many cases (on a 730, for example), UNIX won't boot if the firmware is below the minimum required revision. I know for sure that this is the case on 730, 8200, and if James Lothian's WCS changes get integrated, 750. It will also be the case on BabyVAXen when I get around to supporting them. Now, so far I haven't heard any reports of UNIX refusing to boot on KA650s with early microcode revisions, but one may come in at some point. Since my KA650 runs UNIX right now, I know for sure that at least my version of the firmware is UNIX-friendly. By making it available to other 4.3BSD-Quasijarus users (note that keeping the microcode repository within the PUPS archive has the advantage of giving the images out only to Ancient UNIX enthusiasts, i.e., only to those who really need them), I can make sure that the greatest possible number of people can benefit from my 4.3BSD-Quasijarus work. Come on, removing the KA650 from the list of CPUs for which I make microcode updates available won't change anything. I will still have to carry a ragbag of DEC-copyrighted bits and pieces in order to make my OS project successful. Soon UNIX will require a copy of VMB.EXE in order to boot from MSCP disks and TMSCP tapes on large VAXen. Yes, there is one distributed with the machine itself, but it's too old. UNIX requires a very recent version, and if I want my OS to be viable, there will simply be no other choice but to distribute VMB.EXE. Or look at BI-bus machines. There were two different BI network cards made, DEBNA and DEBNI. They have the same hardware, but different EPROMs. DEBNA is the older one and DEBNI is the newer one. They have completely different software interfaces, and DEBNI is a lot simpler to program. Right now UNIX doesn't support any BI network cards. Suppose I decide to add this support. Given how hard it is to find documentation, write drivers, and test them, what do you think, will I welcome the idea of writing two drivers instead of one? Rather than spend months hunting for a BVP manual and writing a DEBNA driver, it's much easier to write a driver for DEBNI only (much simpler software interface) and tell DEBNA users to upgrade their boards to DEBNI. The catch is, if you are getting your 8200 or whatever for free, you don't get to choose which network card to use, you take what you can find. But with me keeping the repository of all important EPROM images and microcode patch files, the poor DEBNA user can just download the image, borrow an EPROM blaster, and run his free VAX with a UNIX-supported DEBNI! The thing of it is, all this hardware is orphaned. If you have a DEBNA and want to upgrade it to DEBNI to run UNIX, or if you have KA650 V1.1 and want to upgrade it to V1.2 to run UNIX, if you call COMPAQ and ask them for a firmware upgrade they'll laugh at you. If DEC still existed and supported this stuff it would be a different story, but with all this hardware orphaned, the poor VAX UNIX users have no one to turn to for microcode upgrades and troubleshooting support except the VAX UNIX maintainer, i.e., me. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA14104 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:43:26 +1100 (EST) >From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Tue Jan 26 14:43:10 1999 Received: from mail1.panix.com (mail1.panix.com [166.84.0.212]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA14099 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:43:16 +1100 (EST) Received: from panix7.panix.com (root(a)panix7.nyc.access.net [166.84.0.232]) by mail1.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixM1.3) with ESMTP id XAA13322 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:43:11 -0500 (EST) Received: (from tls@localhost) by panix7.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id XAA02557 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:43:10 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:43:10 -0500 From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Message-ID: <19990125234310.A1809(a)rek.tjls.com> Reply-To: tls(a)rek.tjls.com References: <199901260323.WAA03123(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199901260323.WAA03123(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 10:23:32PM -0500 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 10:23:32PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote: > > > It would be nice to have the pre-4.4 (was it 4.4-alpha?) and 4.4BSD > > distributions, as shipped by CSRG, in the archive. > > See my previous posting. > > > What would be even nicer would be the entire system as of the last > > time it was touched -- the AT&T-encumbered system which would correspond > > to the free 4.4BSD-Lite2 distribution which was the last public output > > from CSRG. > > You'll get exactly this if you order Marshall Kirk McKusick's CSRG Archives > CD-ROM set. The last CD-ROM is the image of CSRG's master /usr/src as it > existed on the last second of CSRG's existence, one hour after the 4.4BSD-Lite2 > tape was pressed. > > > Did anyone ever build a distribution of such a system? > > You mean binary distribution? Well, the machine the master /usr/src was stored > on ran this system presumably, so I guess the binaries you want existed at some > point. Whether they have been preserved anywhere is an entirely different > matter. > > > Is it feasible > > to do so now? > > I suppose so. The best way to do it would probably be to bootstrap from the > 4.4BSD tape and then recompile the system from the new source tree. > > > I don't have a firm grasp on which architectures would > > actually compile and run as of that point in the SCCS files -- would > > VAX, using the old VM system? > > I also have a very vague idea of what exactly can 4.4BSD-* run on. But > definitely not VAX or Tahoe. There is no old VM in the 4.4BSD-* tree, and the > kernel architecture has changed so much between 4.3BSD and 4.4BSD that back- > porting it is not something I would volunteer to do. > > > I'd assume hp300 would work, since it > > was the primary development platform, right? > > Yes. > > > Had the LBL SPARC port been integrated? > > Yes. > > You know, if your interest is in resurrecting CSRG, my advice to you is not to > bother with 4.4BSD-*, but to join Quasijarus Project instead. The break point My interest is not in "resurrecting CSRG". If I were into that kind of thing I'd just join Jews For Jesus. My interest is pretty much purely historical. > in the history of CSRG was in late 1988. Everything after that is so far from > True UNIX that I have decided to put a big X over it, turn the Universe clock > back to that point (using my SCCS Time Machine), declare all of CSRG's > post-1988 work "not really CSRG", and declare myself CSRG's true successor. > > If you look at my mail signature, you'll see that I'm the new official > maintainer of Berkeley UNIX and the principal architect of its further > development, known as Quasijarus Project. As far as I am concerned, 4.4BSD > never existed except as a "side branch" from True UNIX, and the last True UNIX > release from CSRG was 4.3BSD-Tahoe. I picked it up from that point and now I'm > maintaining and developing it just as CSRG did until 1988. I am the true > successor of true CSRG. If you want CSRG, here I am. I frankly consider this to be silly, somewhat presumptious, and, for myself, at least, a waste of time. But if it's something _you_ want to do, I encourage you to do it, I suppose. All that I ask is that you not touch the value of the "BSD" symbol which is exposed to the userland C namespace. The chaos which would ensue should a "later" version of BSD appear which didn't support the full 4.4BSD feature set is horrifying to contemplate. Despite the great temptation to do so, neither the NetBSD nor the FreeBSD project have taken up the mantle of CSRG and mucked around with that symbol, nor released "4.5BSD" "5BSD", or the like. History is history. Pretending to be an organization which doesn't exist... gets very little useful work done. At least that's my personal take on it. I think you'd find a substantial number of people who thought that the "True UNIX" line ran through either SunOS 4 or 9th and 10th Edition, were you to take a poll of as many wizards as you could summon. But it's a silly thing to argue about, which is why I'll assert no position at all on that issue. Similarly, I have no interest in arguing about Common LISP versus Scheme or vi versus Emacs. Please don't tempt me with a discussion of X versus MGR or C versus C++ and I'll avoid lecturing at you about _my_ religious hot buttons. :-) -- Thor Lancelot Simon tls(a)rek.tjls.com "And where do all these highways go, now that we are free?" Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA14164 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:57:16 +1100 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Jan 26 14:56:59 1999 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA14158 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:57:06 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id PAA04633; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:27:04 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id PAA93369; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:26:59 +1030 (CST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:26:59 +1030 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Message-ID: <19990126152659.I66239(a)freebie.lemis.com> References: <199901260323.WAA03123(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> <19990125234310.A1809(a)rek.tjls.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <19990125234310.A1809(a)rek.tjls.com>; from Thor Lancelot Simon on Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 11:43:10PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Monday, 25 January 1999 at 23:43:10 -0500, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote: > On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 10:23:32PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: >> in the history of CSRG was in late 1988. Everything after that is so far from >> True UNIX that I have decided to put a big X over it, turn the Universe clock >> back to that point (using my SCCS Time Machine), declare all of CSRG's >> post-1988 work "not really CSRG", and declare myself CSRG's true successor. >> >> If you look at my mail signature, you'll see that I'm the new official >> maintainer of Berkeley UNIX and the principal architect of its further >> development, known as Quasijarus Project. As far as I am concerned, 4.4BSD >> never existed except as a "side branch" from True UNIX, and the last True UNIX >> release from CSRG was 4.3BSD-Tahoe. I picked it up from that point and now I'm >> maintaining and developing it just as CSRG did until 1988. I am the true >> successor of true CSRG. If you want CSRG, here I am. > > All that I ask is that you not touch the value of the "BSD" symbol which is > exposed to the userland C namespace. The chaos which would ensue should > a "later" version of BSD appear which didn't support the full 4.4BSD feature > set is horrifying to contemplate. > > Despite the great temptation to do so, neither the NetBSD nor the FreeBSD > project have taken up the mantle of CSRG and mucked around with that symbol, > nor released "4.5BSD" "5BSD", or the like. History is history. Pretending > to be an organization which doesn't exist... gets very little useful work > done. At least that's my personal take on it. Now you mention this, I seem to remember that BSDI registered the name BSD as a trade mark, so you wouldn't be able to even if you wanted to. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA14191 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:01:14 +1100 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Jan 26 15:01:02 1999 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA14186 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:01:04 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id PAA04650; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:31:02 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id PAA93393; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:31:02 +1030 (CST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:31:02 +1030 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: Michael Sokolov <mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Licensed microcode (was: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image) Message-ID: <19990126153102.J66239(a)freebie.lemis.com> References: <199901260450.XAA03161(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199901260450.XAA03161(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 11:50:33PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Monday, 25 January 1999 at 23:50:33 -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Let's look at things from the practical viewpoint, OK? I think one aspect of a practical viewpoint is to acknowledge that there are laws relating to proprietary code. It's not practical to break these laws, no matter what you may think of them. > One of my goals is to establish a repository containing the latest > available microcode revision for every machine supported by my UNIX > system. Fine. Then negotiate with the owners of the microcode. I'd guess that it wouldn't be as difficult as with the AU licenses. But don't endanger others with your views on legality. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA14415 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:25:56 +1100 (EST) >From Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com> Wed Jan 13 16:13:50 1999 Received: from mail.calweb.com (mail.calweb.com [209.210.251.12]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA14409 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:25:47 +1100 (EST) Received: by mail.calweb.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA16989; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:25:39 -0800 (PST) X-SMTP: helo rick from rickgc(a)calweb.com server @sac2-110.calweb.com ip 207.211.93.110 user=rickgc Message-Id: <3.0.32.19990112221347.006a9f90(a)pop.calweb.com> X-Sender: rickgc(a)pop.calweb.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 22:13:50 -0800 To: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov), pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au From: Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com> Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk No problem! At 09:35 PM 1/25/99 -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: >emanuel stiebler <emu(a)ecubics.com> wrote: > >> Hi all, >> why this version isn't in the pups archive ? > >Generally it's my job as the TUHS 4BSD coordinator to ensure the completeness >of TUHS 4BSD collection, but right now I can't do anything, since Rick Copeland >has Marshall Kirk McKusick's tapes, not me. > >Rick, would you please decide whether or not you are interested in reading >_ALL_ of Marshall Kirk McKusick's tapes? If you are, please read them. If not, >please return them to Kirk so that someone more industrious and motivated can >take a stab at them (I have Kirk's OK). > >Michael Sokolov >TUHS 4BSD Coordinator >4.3BSD-* Maintainer >Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer >Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 >ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu >TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ >Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ > > Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id SAA14579 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:31:22 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 3 months

Re: 4.4BSD

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote: > It would be nice to have the pre-4.4 (was it 4.4-alpha?) and 4.4BSD > distributions, as shipped by CSRG, in the archive. See my previous posting. > What would be even nicer would be the entire system as of the last > time it was touched -- the AT&T-encumbered system which would correspond > to the free 4.4BSD-Lite2 distribution which was the last public output > from CSRG. You'll get exactly this if you order Marshall Kirk McKusick's CSRG Archives CD-ROM set. The last CD-ROM is the image of CSRG's master /usr/src as it existed on the last second of CSRG's existence, one hour after the 4.4BSD-Lite2 tape was pressed. > Did anyone ever build a distribution of such a system? You mean binary distribution? Well, the machine the master /usr/src was stored on ran this system presumably, so I guess the binaries you want existed at some point. Whether they have been preserved anywhere is an entirely different matter. > Is it feasible > to do so now? I suppose so. The best way to do it would probably be to bootstrap from the 4.4BSD tape and then recompile the system from the new source tree. > I don't have a firm grasp on which architectures would > actually compile and run as of that point in the SCCS files -- would > VAX, using the old VM system? I also have a very vague idea of what exactly can 4.4BSD-* run on. But definitely not VAX or Tahoe. There is no old VM in the 4.4BSD-* tree, and the kernel architecture has changed so much between 4.3BSD and 4.4BSD that back- porting it is not something I would volunteer to do. > I'd assume hp300 would work, since it > was the primary development platform, right? Yes. > Had the LBL SPARC port been integrated? Yes. You know, if your interest is in resurrecting CSRG, my advice to you is not to bother with 4.4BSD-*, but to join Quasijarus Project instead. The break point in the history of CSRG was in late 1988. Everything after that is so far from True UNIX that I have decided to put a big X over it, turn the Universe clock back to that point (using my SCCS Time Machine), declare all of CSRG's post-1988 work "not really CSRG", and declare myself CSRG's true successor. If you look at my mail signature, you'll see that I'm the new official maintainer of Berkeley UNIX and the principal architect of its further development, known as Quasijarus Project. As far as I am concerned, 4.4BSD never existed except as a "side branch" from True UNIX, and the last True UNIX release from CSRG was 4.3BSD-Tahoe. I picked it up from that point and now I'm maintaining and developing it just as CSRG did until 1988. I am the true successor of true CSRG. If you want CSRG, here I am. BTW, it's not just that I suddenly declared myself to be the new CSRG. I earned this title, not just assumed it. Marshall Kirk McKusick himself (the previous maintainer of CSRG) acknowledges me as the new principal maintainer and architect. Oh, and he doesn't even object to my decision to undo all of his and others' 1988-1995 work with the SCCS Time Machine. He said himself in a private E-mail that he would love to see the golden old non-bloated system resurrected. I have used the term "True UNIX" several times in this message. Let me explain what I mean. While others may view the history of UNIX as a tree (you hear about UNIX history tree diagrams all the time), I view it as a straight line. The straight line of _mainstream_ True UNIX development looks like this: V6 (Bell) -> V7 (Bell) -> 32V (Bell) -> 3BSD (UCB) -> 4.0BSD (UCB) -> 4.1BSD (UCB) -> 4.2BSD (UCB) -> 4.3BSD (UCB) -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe (UCB) -> 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 (Michael Sokolov) -> future Quasijarus releases (Michael Sokolov). For each release the responsible entity is indicated in parentheses. There are several things worth noting here. Notice how after V7 and 32V the torch of True UNIX development moves from Bell to UCB, never to return to Bell again. This is because everything Bell did after that (System V and such) deviates from the True UNIX ideology and loses the True UNIX torch. In late 1970s or early 1980s UCB picks up this torch and carries it until 1988. In 1988 UCB starts deviating from True UNIX too with the evil spirit of POSIX and everything, and loses the torch. The torch was laying on the ground from that point until the 27th of December 1998 when I picked it up with the 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 release. Now I'm carrying it into the next millennium. Check out the Quasijarus Project WWW page referenced in my mail signature. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA13519 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:17:20 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 3 months

Re: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> Get that out of there fast, it's copyrighted firmware! < <The PUPS archive already contains some PDP-11 boot/diag/etc. odds and ends. <not have VAX ones too? Yes but, not copyrighted firmware. The KA650 B V1.2 firmware is not released or granted publication that I know of and the straw horse of, "well, PDP-xx is here" is not the issue. <BTW, there is a long tradition of shipping DEC odds and ends with UNIX. Jus <look at pcs750.bin, or at DEC-contributed device drivers in 4.3BSD, or at t There is a distinct difference between DEC contributed and the KA650 rom image. <fact that if you do a strings(1) on 4.3BSD /genvmunix, you'll see DEC's <copyright and the word "ULTRIX" in a whole bunch of places. Ancient UNIX an <Ancient DEC live together very well. Please don't separate them. If our gro <(PUPS/TUHS) loves and cares for Ancient UNIX, we should also love and care <Ancient DEC. It is neither the point nor applicable. It's a specious arguement in an attempt to not respect the copyrighted firmware on the CPU card that is not distributed. The fact that DEC and unix go well is not the issue either. <And finally, some of the files in my odds-ends directory were originally <recovered from some BSD distribution (the ULTRIX rabads program, which desp <its DEC copyright, ULTRIX origin, and binary-only nature came with some BS <distributions). I doubt that the KA650 bootrom image was in there as original distribution. If the system is a KA650 it would be available on the system and if it is not it's meaningless. My comment earlier was directly and specifically aimed at the KA650 B V1.2 Eprom image. The problem is that failure to respect the copyrights and ownerships of any code, especially firmware could lead to vendors taking a future hostile stance to the work of PUPS. That would be very undesireable. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA14043 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:37:02 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 3 months

Re: 4.4BSD

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

emanuel stiebler <emu(a)ecubics.com> wrote: > Hi all, > why this version isn't in the pups archive ? Generally it's my job as the TUHS 4BSD coordinator to ensure the completeness of TUHS 4BSD collection, but right now I can't do anything, since Rick Copeland has Marshall Kirk McKusick's tapes, not me. Rick, would you please decide whether or not you are interested in reading _ALL_ of Marshall Kirk McKusick's tapes? If you are, please read them. If not, please return them to Kirk so that someone more industrious and motivated can take a stab at them (I have Kirk's OK). Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA13461 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:09:52 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 3 months

Re: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent) wrote: > Get that out of there fast, it's copyrighted firmware! The PUPS archive already contains some PDP-11 boot/diag/etc. odds and ends. Why not have VAX ones too? But if too many people start complaining, I'll just move the entire odds-ends directory to one of my friend's _anonymous_ FTP site. BTW, there is a long tradition of shipping DEC odds and ends with UNIX. Just look at pcs750.bin, or at DEC-contributed device drivers in 4.3BSD, or at the fact that if you do a strings(1) on 4.3BSD /genvmunix, you'll see DEC's copyright and the word "ULTRIX" in a whole bunch of places. Ancient UNIX and Ancient DEC live together very well. Please don't separate them. If our group (PUPS/TUHS) loves and cares for Ancient UNIX, we should also love and care for Ancient DEC. And finally, some of the files in my odds-ends directory were originally recovered from some BSD distribution (the ULTRIX rabads program, which despite its DEC copyright, ULTRIX origin, and binary-only nature came with some BSD distributions). Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA13004 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:22:35 +1100 (EST) >From "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> Tue Jan 26 11:21:38 1999 Received: from biz1.mailsrvcs.net (biz1.gte.net [207.115.153.50]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA12999 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:22:27 +1100 (EST) Received: from p2350 ([208.250.164.80]) by biz1.mailsrvcs.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-40549L5000S0) with ESMTP id AAA24603 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 19:22:21 -0600 From: "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> To: <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: 4.4BSD Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 18:21:38 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19990126012214.AAA24603@p2350> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi all, why this version isn't in the pups archive ? cheers, emanuel Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA13171 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:05:32 +1100 (EST) >From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Tue Jan 26 12:05:12 1999 Received: from mail2.panix.com (mail2.panix.com [166.84.0.213]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA13165 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:05:22 +1100 (EST) Received: from panix7.panix.com (root(a)panix7.nyc.access.net [166.84.0.232]) by mail2.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixM1.3) with ESMTP id VAA17162 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:05:12 -0500 (EST) Received: (from tls@localhost) by panix7.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id VAA23416 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:05:12 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:05:12 -0500 From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Message-ID: <19990125210512.A22884(a)rek.tjls.com> Reply-To: tls(a)rek.tjls.com References: <19990126012214.AAA24603@p2350> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <19990126012214.AAA24603@p2350>; from emanuel stiebler on Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 06:21:38PM -0700 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 06:21:38PM -0700, emanuel stiebler wrote: > Hi all, > why this version isn't in the pups archive ? > > cheers, > emanuel It would be nice to have the pre-4.4 (was it 4.4-alpha?) and 4.4BSD distributions, as shipped by CSRG, in the archive. What would be even nicer would be the entire system as of the last time it was touched -- the AT&T-encumbered system which would correspond to the free 4.4BSD-Lite2 distribution which was the last public output from CSRG. Did anyone ever build a distribution of such a system? Is it feasible to do so now? I don't have a firm grasp on which architectures would actually compile and run as of that point in the SCCS files -- would VAX, using the old VM system? I'd assume hp300 would work, since it was the primary development platform, right? Had the LBL SPARC port been integrated? -- Thor Lancelot Simon tls(a)rek.tjls.com "And where do all these highways go, now that we are free?" Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA13220 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:21:38 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 3 months

Re: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I have added the EPROM image from my KA650-B V1.2 CPU to the VAX firmware <collection in Distributions/4bsd/odds-ends in the PUPS archive. Get that out of there fast, it's copyrighted firmware! Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA12960 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:11:38 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 3 months

KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Dear PUPS/TUHS members, I have added the EPROM image from my KA650-B V1.2 CPU to the VAX firmware collection in Distributions/4bsd/odds-ends in the PUPS archive. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 440-449-0299 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu

26 years, 3 months

DEC odds and ends

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Dear PUPS/TUHS members, I have just created a new directory in the 4BSD area of the PUPS archive, Distributions/4bsd/odds-ends. This directory contains various DEC odds and ends: microcodes, ROM images, diags, VMS/Ultrix booters and bits, etc. The following items are currently available: rabads.core Ultrix rabads program, pure core version for putting onto console media and loading via console commands. rabads.a.out Ultrix rabads program, a.out version for putting onto a UNIX filesystem and loading via UNIX boot. scsimfm.bin EPROM image from the SCSI/MFM daughterboard for KA42. This list is certain to grow very soon. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 440-449-0299 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu

26 years, 3 months

Quasijarus Project WWW page set update and change in passwd plans

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Dear PUPS/TUHS members, I have just updated the Quasijarus Project WWW page set, adding the features page listing all features added to the master source tree since the currently shipping release. You can find this new page at: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/features.html I have also changed my plans regarding the shadow and shared passwords. See: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/passwd.html Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Cellular phone: 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu

26 years, 4 months

Re: Old pic of ken and dmr

by Warren Toomey

In article by Tom Ivar Helbekkmo: > Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> writes: > > > Patrick Regan, from Bell Labs, has sent in a 2M jpg of > > Ken and Dennis at the console of a PDP-11/20, around 1970. > > That's neat! I've got a very good print of it here (that huge Epson > color inkjet printer we bought at work really does a good job with the > expensive "photo quality" paper in it), and will frame it and hang it > on the wall of my basement machine room in my home. However (and my > ignorance is showing now, I know) who is whom in the picture? Dennis is the one, bearded, on the left. Ken is sitting at the terminal. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA21478 for pups-liszt; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 09:57:09 +1100 (EST) >From Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> Fri Jan 22 08:56:42 1999 Received: from mpl.ucsd.edu (chiton.ucsd.edu [192.135.238.128]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA21473 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 09:56:59 +1100 (EST) Received: (from cdl@localhost) by mpl.ucsd.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id OAA16254; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:56:42 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:56:42 -0800 (PST) From: Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> Message-Id: <199901212256.OAA16254(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> To: agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu, wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: UNIX V6.TAPE Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> > Subject: Re: UNIX V6.TAPE > Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:50:59 +1100 (EST) > > In article by alejandro gonzalez: > > > > Can anyone point me to instructions on getting the tape in: Ken_Wellsch_v6 > > up and running on Supnik's Simulator? I have been trying some things, and > > when it gives me the '=' prompt, anything i type makes the program freeze. > > > > I have been following these instructions, the problem comes up when I > > get the '=' prompt. I type: "tmrk", it just freezes. > > The 6th Ed installation instructions say: The tape contains 12100 512-byte > records followed by a single file mark. Have you made the tape image for > Bob Supnik's emulator to match this, and what configuration file are you > giving to the emulator? But the tape image also contains bootstraps for two kinds of tape drives in the first 100 blocks. Followed by 3 x 4000-block RK05 images. More than this I don't remember offhand, but I do have the "Setting up Unix" document on a bookshelf somewhere in another office. > P.S You can use the RK05 disk image in > Distributions/research/Dennis_v6/v6root.gz, or the RL02 image in > Bootable_Images/v6_rl02_unknown.gz, > unless you really do want to install V6 from tape. The number of people in the world who have actually installed V6 from tape is probably pretty small. But I am one of them, for better or worse. carl carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego {decvax|ucbvax} !ucsd!mpl!cdl cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu clowenstein(a)ucsd.edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA21792 for pups-liszt; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:07:41 +1100 (EST) >From Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> Fri Jan 22 10:03:31 1999 Received: from caveman.geac.com.au (caveman.geac.com.au [203.30.73.2]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA21787 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:07:30 +1100 (EST) Received: (qmail 6007 invoked from network); 22 Jan 1999 00:08:09 -0000 Received: from brane.geac.com.au (202.6.67.115) by caveman.geac.com.au with SMTP; 22 Jan 1999 00:08:09 -0000 Received: from fgh.geac.com.au by brane.geac.com.au with smtp\n (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m103U3c-0002fpC; Fri, 22 Jan 99 11:02 AEDT Received: from localhost (dave@localhost) by fgh.geac.com.au (SMI-8.X/SVR4) with ESMTP id LAA04565 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:03:31 +1100 Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:03:31 +1100 (EST) From: Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> X-Sender: dave@fgh To: PDP Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: UNIX V6.TAPE In-Reply-To: <199901212256.OAA16254(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.03.9901221102270.3559-100000@fgh> X-No-Archive: Yes X-Witty-Saying: "Tesseract - Enter at own risk" X-Disclaimer: "Me, speak for us?" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Carl Lowenstein wrote: > The number of people in the world who have actually installed V6 from > tape is probably pretty small. But I am one of them, for better or worse. Me too :-) But I've long since forgotten the details... -- Dave Horsfall VK2KFU dave(a)geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: +61 2 9978-7422 Geac Computers P/L (FGH Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA21973 for pups-liszt; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:31:53 +1100 (EST) >From "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net> Fri Jan 22 10:36:01 1999 Received: from coffee.corliss.net (erin(a)coffee.gta-tech.com.121.7.12.in-addr.arpa [12.7.121.245] (may be forged)) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA21968 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:31:44 +1100 (EST) Received: from localhost (erin@localhost) by coffee.corliss.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA01606 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 16:36:01 -0800 Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 16:36:01 -0800 (PST) From: "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Memory Management Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990121163113.412A-100000(a)coffee.corliss.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk The documentation that Warren gave me describes the memory management scheme. It says that when the machine is first started, the memory management unit is disabled -- anyone know how to enable it, and where the segmentation registers are (I'm assuming they are in the 0160000-0177777 range somewhere)? Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA22017 for pups-liszt; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:38:06 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Fri Jan 22 10:39:04 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA22012 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:37:58 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA11544 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:39:04 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901220039.LAA11544(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: UNIX V6.TAPE To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:39:04 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk All, Here is how to install 6th Edition from the tape image v6.tape.gz in Distributions/research/Ken_Wellsch_v6, onto Bob Supnik's emulator 2.3d: I found makesimtape.c in Trees/2.11BSD/usr/src/sys/pdpstand in the PUPS Archive. Warren /usr/local/src/Sim_2.3d: ls -l total 14822 -rwx------ 1 wkt wheel 6018 Jan 22 11:18 makesimtape -rwx------ 1 wkt wheel 117728 Jan 11 14:02 pdp -rw------- 1 wkt wheel 42 Jan 22 11:27 v6 -r-------- 1 wkt wheel 6195200 Jan 22 11:20 v6.tape -r-------- 1 wkt wheel 2494464 Jan 15 14:14 v6root -rw------- 1 wkt wheel 14 Jan 22 11:23 z /usr/local/src/Sim_2.3d: cat z # Input to makesimtape v6.tape 1 * 1 /usr/local/src/Sim_2.3d: ./makesimtape -i z -o v6tape v6.tape: block 0, file 0 # Output is file v6tape, not shown /usr/local/src/Sim_2.3d: cat v6 # Supnik sim config file set cpu 18b att rk0 v6root att tm0 v6tape /usr/local/src/Sim_2.3d: ./pdp v6 # Run simulator PDP-11 simulator V2.3d sim> id 10000-10012 # Toggle in boot code 10000: 012700 # as per V6 install 10002: 172526 # instructions 10004: 010040 10006: 012740 10010: 060003 10012: 000777 sim> g 10000 # Run above boot code # After a while, enter ctrl-E Simulation stopped, PC: 010012 (BR 10012) sim> g 0 # Restart CPU at location 0 =tmrk disk offset # Follow instructions as per 0 # V6 install notes tape offset 100 count 1 =tmrk disk offset 1 tape offset 101 count 3999 = # Enter ctrl-E Simulation stopped, PC: 137274 (TSTB @#177560) sim> b rk # Boot RK device 0 @rkunix # Choose correct kernel image login: root # ls -l total 244 drwxrwxr-x 2 bin 1104 May 14 00:47 bin drwxrwxr-x 2 bin 1824 Aug 14 22:04 dev drwxrwxr-x 2 bin 496 Oct 10 12:29 etc -rwxrwxrwx 1 root 29074 Oct 10 12:28 hpunix drwxrwxr-x 2 bin 464 May 13 23:35 lib drwxrwxr-x 2 bin 32 May 13 20:01 mnt -rwxrwxrwx 1 root 28836 Oct 10 12:22 rkunix -rwxrwxrwx 1 root 29020 Oct 10 12:25 rpunix drwxrwxrwx 2 bin 272 Jul 18 09:19 tmp -rw-rw-rw- 1 root 28684 Jul 18 09:18 unix drwxrwxr-x 14 bin 224 May 13 20:16 usr # sync # # Enter ctrl-E again Simulation stopped, PC: 016022 (SOB R4,15746) sim> q Goodbye Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA22539 for pups-liszt; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:22:41 +1100 (EST) >From Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> Fri Jan 22 13:18:36 1999 Received: from caveman.geac.com.au (caveman.geac.com.au [203.30.73.2]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA22534 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:22:33 +1100 (EST) Received: (qmail 9283 invoked from network); 22 Jan 1999 03:23:13 -0000 Received: from brane.geac.com.au (202.6.67.115) by caveman.geac.com.au with SMTP; 22 Jan 1999 03:23:13 -0000 Received: from fgh.geac.com.au by brane.geac.com.au with smtp\n (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m103X6K-0002fpC; Fri, 22 Jan 99 14:17 AEDT Received: from localhost (dave@localhost) by fgh.geac.com.au (SMI-8.X/SVR4) with ESMTP id OAA06957; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:18:37 +1100 Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:18:36 +1100 (EST) From: Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> X-Sender: dave@fgh To: "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Memory Management In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990121163113.412A-100000(a)coffee.corliss.net> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.03.9901221417120.3559-100000@fgh> X-No-Archive: Yes X-Witty-Saying: "Tesseract - Enter at own risk" X-Disclaimer: "Me, speak for us?" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Erin W. Corliss wrote: > The documentation that Warren gave me describes the memory management > scheme. It says that when the machine is first started, the memory > management unit is disabled -- anyone know how to enable it, and where the > segmentation registers are (I'm assuming they are in the 0160000-0177777 > range somewhere)? I'll check my PDP-11 manuals when I get home; if I have a spare one I'll send it to you. What was the model again? An 11/70 or something? -- Dave Horsfall VK2KFU dave(a)geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: +61 2 9978-7422 Geac Computers P/L (FGH Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id TAA23450 for pups-liszt; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 19:13:47 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 4 months

UNIX V6.TAPE

by alejandro gonzalez

Can anyone point me to instructions on getting the tape in: Ken_Wellsch_v6 up and running on Supnik's Simulator? I have been trying some things, and when it gives me the '=' prompt, anything i type makes the program freeze. Any help would be appreciated. ********************************* Alejandro Gonzalez HPDRC Research Assistant NASA Regional Application Center agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu ********************************* Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA16173 for pups-liszt; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:14:40 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Jan 21 08:15:24 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA16167 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:14:27 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA08028; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:15:24 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901202215.JAA08028(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: UNIX V6.TAPE In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9901201708340.26596-100000(a)dizzy.cs.fiu.edu> from alejandro gonzalez at "Jan 20, 1999 5:10:51 pm" To: agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu (alejandro gonzalez) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:15:24 +1100 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by alejandro gonzalez: > > Can anyone point me to instructions on getting the tape in: Ken_Wellsch_v6 > up and running on Supnik's Simulator? I have been trying some things, and > when it gives me the '=' prompt, anything i type makes the program freeze. > > Any help would be appreciated. Have a look at the 6th Edition installation instructions at: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS/Setup/v6_setup.html Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA16308 for pups-liszt; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:46:46 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Jan 21 08:47:37 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA16298 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:46:32 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA08078; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:47:37 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901202247.JAA08078(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Early UNIX dates To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:47:37 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk All, After some reading though papers and books, I've come up with the following brief timeline of very early UNIX development. I just thought some of you might find it interesting. Warren Early dates of UNIX Development As accurately as we can tell, anyway! References given where possible. 1969 Unknown: Ken creates `Space Travel'. It was first written on Multics, then transliterated into Fortran for GECOS, then Ken and Dennis rewrote Space Travel to run on the PDP-7 [http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/hist.html] Mid-year: Bell Labs withdraws from the Multics project [QCU pg 8] April, May, June: Ken is interested in writing a file system [QCU pg 8] Mid-year: Ken brings the file system to life on the PDP-7 in a month [QCU pg 10] Unknown: Ken develops the B language [QCU pg 34], [http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/chist.html] 1970 Unknown: Peter Neumann coins the term `Unics', which is subsequently changed to `Unix' [QCU pg 9] Unknown: Alternatively, Brian Kernighan suggests the name `Unix' [http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/hist.html] Mid-year: The PDP-11/20 is purchased, with no disk drives [QCU pg 35], [http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/hist.html] 3 months later: The disks arrive [http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/chist.html] Unknown: Ken recodes the Unix kernel and some commands in PDP-11 assembly code [http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/chist.html] 1971 January-March: PDP-11 version largely rewritten during this period [http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/notes.html] February: PDP-11 Unix beccomes ``operational'' [http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/cacm.html] Unknown: Dennis extends B to be NB [http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/chist.html] Spring: roff rewritten in PDP-11 assembler language, starting from the PDP-7 version that had been transliterated from McIlroy's BCPL version on Multics, which had in turn been inspired by J. Saltzer's runoff program on CTSS [http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/hist.html] November: First Edition manuals were published [QCU pg 43] 1972 January: The Labs issues a technical memorandum, written by Ken, describing the B language on the PDP-11 [http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/kbman.html] March: First manual for cc(1) [QCU pg 48] March: UNIX is running on at least 5 PDP-11/20s [http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/notes.html] June: DEC starts to ship the PDP-11/45. The Labs purchases one sonn after this [http://www.village.org/pdp11/faq.pages/11model.html] June: Second Edition manuals were published. 10 UNIX installations [QCU pg 43] Unknown: Ken adds pipes to the assembly-language version of the kernel [QCU pg 51], [http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/hist.html] 1973 January: the `nsys' kernel in the PUPS archive, written in C [timestamps on the files] February: Third Edition manuals were published. 16 UNIX installations [QCU pg 43] Kernel is still the assembly-language version [private email from dmr dated 7 Jan 1999] September: The C version of the kernel is adopted over the assembly-language version [private email from dmr dated 18 Jan 1999] October: First UNIX paper, presented by Ken at the Fourth ACM Symposium on Operating Systems Principles [http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/cacm.html] November: Fourth Edition manuals were published [QCU pg 43] 1974 June: Fifth Edition manuals were published [QCU pg 43] July: Ken's SOSP published in Communications of the ACM, 17, No. 7 [http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/cacm.html] Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA16677 for pups-liszt; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:59:04 +1100 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Thu Jan 21 10:58:47 1999 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA16672 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:58:54 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA13907; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:28:48 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id LAA18399; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:28:47 +1030 (CST) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:28:47 +1030 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: Mike Jenkins <mjenkins(a)carp.gbr.epa.gov> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Old pic of ken and dmr Message-ID: <19990121112846.N15785(a)freebie.lemis.com> References: <199901200346.OAA06481(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> <199901201649.KAA08238(a)carp.gbr.epa.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199901201649.KAA08238(a)carp.gbr.epa.gov>; from Mike Jenkins on Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 10:49:27AM -0600 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Wednesday, 20 January 1999 at 10:49:27 -0600, Mike Jenkins wrote: >> http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS/Images/ken-and-den.jpg > > There is a smaller (26K) gif version on the following page: > > http://www.lucent.com/museum/1969unix.html > > The URL for the gif is: > > http://www.lucent.com/museum/images/1950/1969rt.gif The original .jpeg could do with re-saving; with xv you can get it down to 10% of the original volume. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA16767 for pups-liszt; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:28:50 +1100 (EST) >From alejandro gonzalez <agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu> Thu Jan 21 11:28:31 1999 Received: from ferret.cs.fiu.edu (ferret.cs.fiu.edu [131.94.125.231]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA16762 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:28:41 +1100 (EST) Received: from sdb1.cs.fiu.edu (sdb1.cs.fiu.edu [131.94.131.15]) by ferret.cs.fiu.edu (8.9.1/FIU-CS-1.1) with ESMTP id UAA07861; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 20:28:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 20:28:31 -0500 (EST) From: alejandro gonzalez <agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu> To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: UNIX V6.TAPE In-Reply-To: <199901202215.JAA08028(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9901202027130.10646-100000(a)sdb1.cs.fiu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk I have been following these instructions, the problem comes up when I get the '=' prompt. I type: "tmrk", it just freezes. Thanks for the help, Alex ********************************* Alejandro Gonzalez HPDRC Research Assistant NASA Regional Application Center agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu ********************************* On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by alejandro gonzalez: > > > > Can anyone point me to instructions on getting the tape in: Ken_Wellsch_v6 > > up and running on Supnik's Simulator? I have been trying some things, and > > when it gives me the '=' prompt, anything i type makes the program freeze. > > > > Any help would be appreciated. > > Have a look at the 6th Edition installation instructions at: > > http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS/Setup/v6_setup.html > > Cheers, > Warren > Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA17122 for pups-liszt; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:50:09 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Jan 21 13:50:59 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA17117 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:50:00 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA09253; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:50:59 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901210350.OAA09253(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: UNIX V6.TAPE In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9901202027130.10646-100000(a)sdb1.cs.fiu.edu> from alejandro gonzalez at "Jan 20, 1999 8:28:31 pm" To: agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu (alejandro gonzalez) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:50:59 +1100 (EST) Cc: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by alejandro gonzalez: > > Can anyone point me to instructions on getting the tape in: Ken_Wellsch_v6 > up and running on Supnik's Simulator? I have been trying some things, and > when it gives me the '=' prompt, anything i type makes the program freeze. > > I have been following these instructions, the problem comes up when I > get the '=' prompt. I type: "tmrk", it just freezes. The 6th Ed installation instructions say: The tape contains 12100 512-byte records followed by a single file mark. Have you made the tape image for Bob Supnik's emulator to match this, and what configuration file are you giving to the emulator? Thanks, Warren P.S You can use the RK05 disk image in Distributions/research/Dennis_v6/v6root.gz, or the RL02 image in Bootable_Images/v6_rl02_unknown.gz, unless you really do want to install V6 from tape. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA17833 for pups-liszt; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:28:42 +1100 (EST) >From Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO> Thu Jan 21 15:23:56 1999 Received: from hesiod.nhh.no (hesiod.nhh.no [158.37.96.15]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA17827 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:28:30 +1100 (EST) Received: from athene.nhh.no (athene.nhh.no [158.37.96.16]) by hesiod.nhh.no (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA28828; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 07:28:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from Hamartun.Priv.NO (Uhamartu@localhost) by athene.nhh.no (8.8.8/8.8.8) with UUCP id HAA03794; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 07:20:14 +0100 (CET) Received: (from tih@localhost) by barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA07716; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 06:23:58 +0100 (CET) To: alejandro gonzalez <agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu> Cc: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: UNIX V6.TAPE References: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9901202027130.10646-100000(a)sdb1.cs.fiu.edu> From: Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO> Date: 21 Jan 1999 06:23:56 +0100 In-Reply-To: alejandro gonzalez's message of "Wed, 20 Jan 1999 20:28:31 -0500 (EST)" Message-ID: <8667a1ci6r.fsf(a)barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO> X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.44/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk alejandro gonzalez <agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu> writes: > I have been following these instructions, the problem comes up when > I get the '=' prompt. I type: "tmrk", it just freezes. You're following the wrong instructions. :-) Or, at least, you're taking them too literally. You're trying to use the tape the way it would be done on a real machine, but it's much easier to just split it into disk images under the host UNIX. Looking in my V6 directory, I've got a text file containing something that I believe Warren wrote, in a text file accompanying the tape image: "This is a copy of the Sixth Edition distribution tape which was sent to me by Ken Wellsch. The file v6.tape.gz is the tape image, with the first 100 512-byte tape blocks containing tape bootstrap stuff. Blocks 100 - 4099 are the RK05 root image, blocks 4100 - 8099 are the /usr RK05 image, and the blocks 8100 - 12099 are the /doc RK05 image." So what I did with that tape, for Bob Supnik's PDP-11 simulator, was to run these commands under the host UNIX: % gunzip v6.tape.gz % dd if=v6.tape of=v6.root.rk05 count=4000 skip=100 % dd if=v6.tape of=v6.usr.rk05 count=4000 skip=4100 % dd if=v6.tape of=v6.doc.rk05 count=4000 skip=8100 Then, I made a script file for the simulator: % cat > v6.script attach rk0 V6.root.rk05 attach rk1 V6.usr.rk05 attach rk2 V6.doc.rk05 boot rk0 ^d % ...and finally, I run the resulting system, thus: % pdp11 v6.script PDP-11 simulator V2.3 @unix login: I may have had to modify something in the actual UNIX V6 system to mount rk1 and rk2 properly -- I don't recall. You'll figure it out. Anyway, the system runs like a charm, and I've successfully rebuilt the kernel from sources on it. Fun! Good luck! -tih -- Popularity is the hallmark of mediocrity. --Niles Crane, "Frasier" Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA17828 for pups-liszt; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:28:34 +1100 (EST) >From Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO> Thu Jan 21 15:28:07 1999 Received: from hesiod.nhh.no (hesiod.nhh.no [158.37.96.15]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA17821 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:28:22 +1100 (EST) Received: from athene.nhh.no (athene.nhh.no [158.37.96.16]) by hesiod.nhh.no (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA28825; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 07:28:17 +0100 (CET) Received: from Hamartun.Priv.NO (Uhamartu@localhost) by athene.nhh.no (8.8.8/8.8.8) with UUCP id HAA03795; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 07:20:14 +0100 (CET) Received: (from tih@localhost) by barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA07720; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 06:28:10 +0100 (CET) To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) Subject: Re: Old pic of ken and dmr References: <199901200346.OAA06481(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> From: Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO> Date: 21 Jan 1999 06:28:07 +0100 In-Reply-To: Warren Toomey's message of "Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:46:41 +1100 (EST)" Message-ID: <863e55chzs.fsf(a)barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO> X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.44/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> writes: > Patrick Regan, from Bell Labs, has sent in a 2M jpg of > Ken and Dennis at the console of a PDP-11/20, around 1970. That's neat! I've got a very good print of it here (that huge Epson color inkjet printer we bought at work really does a good job with the expensive "photo quality" paper in it), and will frame it and hang it on the wall of my basement machine room in my home. However (and my ignorance is showing now, I know) who is whom in the picture? -tih -- Popularity is the hallmark of mediocrity. --Niles Crane, "Frasier" Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id CAA19503 for pups-liszt; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 02:20:54 +1100 (EST) >From "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> Fri Jan 22 01:19:45 1999 Received: from biz1.mailsrvcs.net (biz1.gte.net [207.115.153.50]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA19497 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 02:20:40 +1100 (EST) Received: from p2350 ([208.254.194.59]) by biz1.mailsrvcs.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-40549L5000S0) with ESMTP id AAA2583; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:20:33 -0600 From: "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> To: <wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au>, "Tom Ivar Helbekkmo" <tih(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO> Cc: "Unix Heritage Society" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Old pic of ken and dmr Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 08:19:45 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19990121152024.AAA2583@p2350> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi, ---------- > From: Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO> > To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au > Cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> > Subject: Re: Old pic of ken and dmr > Date: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 10:28 PM > on the wall of my basement machine room in my home. However (and my > ignorance is showing now, I know) who is whom in the picture? Dennis is the one with the glasses & beart ... ;-)) cheers, emu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id EAA20117 for pups-liszt; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 04:14:38 +1100 (EST) >From alejandro gonzalez <agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu> Fri Jan 22 03:14:02 1999 Received: from ferret.cs.fiu.edu (ferret.cs.fiu.edu [131.94.125.231]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA20112 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 04:14:24 +1100 (EST) Received: from sdb1.cs.fiu.edu (sdb1.cs.fiu.edu [131.94.131.15]) by ferret.cs.fiu.edu (8.9.1/FIU-CS-1.1) with ESMTP id MAA04037; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:14:02 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:14:02 -0500 (EST) From: alejandro gonzalez <agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu> To: Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO> cc: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: UNIX V6.TAPE In-Reply-To: <8667a1ci6r.fsf(a)barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9901211213500.18250-100000(a)sdb1.cs.fiu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Thanks a lot. It works now. ********************************* Alejandro Gonzalez HPDRC Research Assistant NASA Regional Application Center agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu ********************************* On 21 Jan 1999, Tom Ivar Helbekkmo wrote: > alejandro gonzalez <agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu> writes: > > > I have been following these instructions, the problem comes up when > > I get the '=' prompt. I type: "tmrk", it just freezes. > > You're following the wrong instructions. :-) Or, at least, you're > taking them too literally. You're trying to use the tape the way it > would be done on a real machine, but it's much easier to just split it > into disk images under the host UNIX. Looking in my V6 directory, > I've got a text file containing something that I believe Warren wrote, > in a text file accompanying the tape image: > > "This is a copy of the Sixth Edition distribution tape which was sent > to me by Ken Wellsch. The file v6.tape.gz is the tape image, with the > first 100 512-byte tape blocks containing tape bootstrap stuff. Blocks > 100 - 4099 are the RK05 root image, blocks 4100 - 8099 are the /usr > RK05 image, and the blocks 8100 - 12099 are the /doc RK05 image." > > So what I did with that tape, for Bob Supnik's PDP-11 simulator, was > to run these commands under the host UNIX: > > % gunzip v6.tape.gz > % dd if=v6.tape of=v6.root.rk05 count=4000 skip=100 > % dd if=v6.tape of=v6.usr.rk05 count=4000 skip=4100 > % dd if=v6.tape of=v6.doc.rk05 count=4000 skip=8100 > > Then, I made a script file for the simulator: > > % cat > v6.script > attach rk0 V6.root.rk05 > attach rk1 V6.usr.rk05 > attach rk2 V6.doc.rk05 > boot rk0 > ^d > % > > ...and finally, I run the resulting system, thus: > > % pdp11 v6.script > PDP-11 simulator V2.3 > @unix > login: > > I may have had to modify something in the actual UNIX V6 system to > mount rk1 and rk2 properly -- I don't recall. You'll figure it out. > > Anyway, the system runs like a charm, and I've successfully rebuilt > the kernel from sources on it. Fun! > > Good luck! > > -tih > -- > Popularity is the hallmark of mediocrity. --Niles Crane, "Frasier" > Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id FAA20383 for pups-liszt; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 05:22:49 +1100 (EST) >From "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net> Fri Jan 22 04:26:54 1999 Received: from coffee.corliss.net (erin(a)coffee.gta-tech.com.121.7.12.in-addr.arpa [12.7.121.245] (may be forged)) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA20378 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 05:22:35 +1100 (EST) Received: from localhost (erin@localhost) by coffee.corliss.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA30600 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:26:54 -0800 Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:26:54 -0800 (PST) From: "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: here's a dumb question Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990121101819.30461A-100000(a)coffee.corliss.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk OK, so I was at my ISP the other day and after a talk with the owner I walked home with a bunch of pieces from a microvax II, which I used to completely pimp out my PDP-11/73... One of the new pieces is a hard drive, which allows me to write assembly code with the RSTS/E Macro Assembler, write them to the hard drive, and boot the system up in non-RSTSish ways... I'm new to PDP-11 assembly language, however, and I don't have a really complete manual... The general purpose registers are all 16 bits. Addresses stored in these registers can only point to the first 32K words of memory. My PDP has a 512K words of memory. The only reference I've seen to this problem was one sentence in one of my manuals that says the rest of the memory can be addressed through "memory management". When it says this, does it mean that there is a separate memory management unit that I have to control to flip between pages or banks of memory, or are there extended registers in the CPU itself that allow me to do this? I crashed the machine the other day and I noticed that the monitor listed some registers that started with M... Could that be what these are for? (The computer claims to have 22-bit addressing, BTW.) -- Erin Corliss

26 years, 4 months

Intruiging bits in the nsys kernel

by norman＠nose.cita.utoronto.ca

Some answers to Warren's queries: mknod(II) first shows up in the Fourth Edition; the manual entry is dated 8/5/73. (That having been typed in the US, presumably it means 5 Aug 1973.) getgid(II) shows in the same manual, but with an older date: 3/15/72. This is also the edition in which the documentation for stat(II) first admits a group ID as well as a user ID. Both my hazy memory (made worse by lack of sleep right now) and the clues in the manual suggest that 3e/4e was the period when the system was rewritten in C; e.g. 4e is the first to show C interfaces in section II, complete with structs as well as pure byte-offset descriptions for objects like that filled in by stat, though the structs are nameless, presumably because there were no standard header files yet. Evidently the file system upheaval occurred in the same period. Reading the description of the 3e file system, I see it has been too long since I've read it. A summary: Blocks 0 and 1 are the super-block, consisting of size of free-storage bitmap the map itself size of free-i-node map the map itself Block 2 begins the i-list; data blocks follow. I-nodes 1-40 are reserved for special (device) files, and don't appear in the map. I-node 41 is the root. I-nodes have flags, a link count, a userid, a 16-bit size, creation and modification times, and eight block pointers. Flag bits inclode `allocated', `large file' (the pointers are to indirect blocks), read and write permissions for user and other, set-userid, a single `executable' flag, a `directory' flag (if clear, regular file). BUGS Two blocks are not enough to handle the i- and free- storage maps for an RP02 disk pack, which contains around 10 million words. The 4e file system is more or less that in the more-familiar V6 system: Block 0 reserved for boot block Block 1 is the super-block: file-system and i-list sizes, caches of free block and i-node numbers. The free-block list is now the familiar chain of blocks list free block numbers; the free-inode list is abolished because the i-nodes all have `allocated' flags anyway. Block 2 begins the i-list. I-node 1 is the root. I-nodes differ from 3e in having a group ID,a 24-bit size, access time instead of creation time; the `directory' flag becomes a two-bit `file type' flag; group permissions appear, there are three separate `executable' flags, and set-group-ID appears. No BUGS yet, perhaps because the code was new. Notice how history repeats: 4e replaced the free-block bitmap with a list, which made it simpler to cope with huge file systems but harder to allocate blocks in a simpler order; sundry replacement file systems in the early 1980s (Berkeley FFS, Weinberger's cheap hacks in V8) restored the bitmap, because it's easier to pick a good block when you can see all the blocks available, and because by then computers had enough memory and disks were big enough that a large bitmap wasn't a burden. An anecdote may be (barely) relevant here. I remember once in the late 1980s having a chat with Lee McMahon about group IDs, and how they didn't seem to have done quite what people wanted (hence the multiple-groups-per-process stuff in most current systems, and the special semantics for the set-group-id flag on directories, and various other features that have seemed to me never to quite hit the mark). Lee told me that when Ken first put group IDs into the system, he asked Ken what they were for. Ken allegedly shrugged and said `I dunno.' Norman Wilson Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id DAA15137 for pups-liszt; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 03:49:52 +1100 (EST) >From Mike Jenkins <mjenkins(a)carp.gbr.epa.gov> Thu Jan 21 02:49:27 1999 Received: from carp.gbr.epa.gov (carp.gbr.epa.gov [204.46.159.110]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA15131 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 03:49:37 +1100 (EST) Received: (from mjenkins@localhost) by carp.gbr.epa.gov (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA08238; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:49:27 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from mjenkins) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:49:27 -0600 (CST) From: Mike Jenkins <mjenkins(a)carp.gbr.epa.gov> Message-Id: <199901201649.KAA08238(a)carp.gbr.epa.gov> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Old pic of ken and dmr Cc: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199901200346.OAA06481(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS/Images/ken-and-den.jpg There is a smaller (26K) gif version on the following page: http://www.lucent.com/museum/1969unix.html The URL for the gif is: http://www.lucent.com/museum/images/1950/1969rt.gif Mike

26 years, 4 months

Intruiging bits in the nsys kernel

by Warren Toomey

In article by Eric Fischer: > Congratulations on getting the nsys kernel running! I have > a couple of random comments on what you posted to the list: > > > Syscalls in `nsys' but not in V5: > > --------------------------------- > > 1, &quit, /* 26 = quit */ > > 1, &intr, /* 27 = intr */ > > 1, &cemt, /* 29 = cemt */ > > 1, &ilgins, /* 33 = ilgins */ > > 1, &fpe, /* 40 = fpe */ > > > > These deliver signals QUIT, INTR, EMT, INS or FPE > > to the pid in arg0. Any user can send these signals. > > I think this is backwards -- these system calls don't deliver > signals, they trap them. That is, they're the predecessors > of signal(), not kill(). Eric is quite correct, and I realised this after reading some comments on the V2 kernel. The nsys kernel also has a sig() system call which allows a process to trap an arbitrary signal. This is why the syscalls above were removed: there was a more general system call available. > > > Syscalls in V5 but not in `nsys': > > --------------------------------- > > 0, &getpid, /* 20 = getpid */ > > 1, &smdate, /* 30 = smdate */ > > 0, &nice, /* 34 = nice */ > > 0, &pipe, /* 42 = pipe */ !!! > > 4, &profil, /* 44 = prof */ > > This part seems really weird. Since it has fpe() but not nice() and > pipe(), that would have to mean it's somewhere intermediate between > v2 and v3, at least if the details in Doug McIlroy's "Research Unix > Reader" are all accurate. And I *really* don't understand why there > would be space reserved in the system call table for nice and pipe > but no implementations of the functions. > > The other weird part is that McIlroy says that smdate() was in v1 > through v3 but disappeared after that. I don't have the v5 kernel > source at hand right now, so I can't check up on that, but it's > strange that smdate should be missing here if this is an early v3. > > Actually, on further inspection this must be a *late* v3, since it > has mknod(), getgid(), and setgid(), which aren't supposed to have > shown up until v4. (No signal(), though, so it's not quite v4.) > That's still very odd that pipes would be left out, unless this > version was crunched to run in an especially small memory or something. > > And yet, v3 was supposed to have been released in February, 1973, and > this is earlier than that, so what are any v4 features doing there at > all? This just gets stranger and stranger... > eric I've had some chat with Dennis about this kernel, and how it fitted into development. The summary is: Ken tried to rewrite the assembly version of the kernel in B (or NB) in 1972, but gave up because structures didn't exist. Once B -> NB -> C and got structures, they tried again. Apparently, the `new' kernel (aka nsys) was developed in parallel with the `old' assembly kernel during early to mid-1973. Then, Dennis says: I'm pretty sure that we didn't adopt [the C version of the kernel] as the standard "production" system until about September 1973. It is very likely that the real "sys" was still in assembler. Pipes were probably added first to [the sys] version, given the evidence in "nsys." Dennis also says: During 1972, Ken finally puts pipes into Unix at McIlroy's urging. which would explain why there is a reserved syscall in `nsys', but no code as yet. I can't explain the existence of the mknod(), getgid(), and setgid() system calls. Norman and Bob Keys, I think one/both of you have got the old manuals, can you look through them and find out when these syscalls appeared? Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA12788 for pups-liszt; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:45:43 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jan 20 13:46:41 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA12783 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:45:35 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA06481 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:46:41 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901200346.OAA06481(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Old pic of ken and dmr To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:46:41 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk All, Patrick Regan, from Bell Labs, has sent in a 2M jpg of Ken and Dennis at the console of a PDP-11/20, around 1970. It's at: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS/Images/ken-and-den.jpg Ciao, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id CAA14984 for pups-liszt; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 02:45:02 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 4 months

James Lothian's /usr/src tarball

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Dear PUPS/TUHS members, I have just uploaded James Lothian's /usr/src tarball. You can find it in the Distributions/4bsd/thirdparty/UWisc4.3/James_Lothian_mods directory in the PUPS archive. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 440-449-0299 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu

26 years, 4 months

University of Wisconsin's hacked 4.3BSD

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Dear PUPS/TUHS members, I have just uploaded the distribution images for the University of Winconsin's hacked 4.3BSD contributed by James Lothian. You can find them in the Distributions/4bsd/thirdparty/UWisc4.3 directory in the PUPS archive. I haven't uploaded James' own changed /usr/src yet, will probably do it later at night. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 440-449-0299 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA06758 for pups-liszt; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:07:24 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue Jan 19 12:08:22 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA06753 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:07:17 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA02324 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:08:22 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901190208.NAA02324(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Co-authors for Unix history paper? To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:08:22 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi all, I recently approached the IEEE Annals of Computing History journal to see if they would be interested in a paper on our efforts to find and preserve the old versions of Unix. They said yes, so I was wondering if anybody might want to be co-author. This is what I suggested: > I'd like to write an article which describes the efforts to find and > preserve historical material which is related to UNIX. This includes > finding tapes, reading them, decoding their formats etc. > > The article would also discuss the mechanisms available for running > these old UNIX systems: by using old hardware (and the difficulties > of maintaining such equipment), by using software emulators (and > possibly a discussion of what they provide). > > In other words, the actual history of UNIX and its influence would not > be covered, but the `archaeology' and preservation of artifacts from > the early days of UNIX would be. Given that there are people on the list who deal with old hardware, reading ancient tapes, etc., I thought they might like to add some input to the paper. I think the paper size is limited to around 25-30 pages, and has be formal in tone. If anybody has any suggestions as to what should go in (or even wants to write a section), then I would welcome some email! Cheers all, Warren P.S I'm giving a similar, but much more informal, paper at a local conference next month. The paper is at: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Seminars/Saving_Unix/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id TAA08164 for pups-liszt; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 19:33:12 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 4 months

Jump to page:

2025

2024

2023

2022

2021

2020

2019

2018

2017

2016

2015

2014

2013

2012

2011

2010

2009

2008

2007

2006

2005

2004

2003

2002

2001

2000

1999

1998

1997

1996

1995

1994

1993

1992

1991

1990

TUHS