<DELQA is not 68k, The DEUNA is. The DELQA is a cost reduced version
<(less buggy too) of the DEQNA and is largely logically the same as the
<DEQNA.
Memory parity exception... Eat foot time.
DELQA M7516 is 68k and lance chip... had to pull mine to check. The M7504
however I am correct as I pulled one down from the shelf before dining on
foot. Oh and the reson I forgot it's 68k, was the DELQA is far more
reliable! that and I only open the BA123 one a year to check the fans and
clean dust. It just don't break. ;)
Allison
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>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Fri Feb 19 12:36:11 1999
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From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.cs.adfa.OZ.AU
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Subject: Re: DEQNA (was was Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h)
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><The replacement ethernet controller was the DELQA, which was a complete
><redesign and used a 68000 processor.
>The DELQA was not 68000.
Hate to turn this into a "no it isn't, yet it is" sequence, but all
my DELQA's have prominent 68000's on 'em.
> The board was far to small for that
No, it isn't. The 68000 is the quad pack, and is smaller than either
of the two custom gate arrays that does the Q-bus handshaking.
Tim.
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Fri Feb 19 13:06:14 1999
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Subject: Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h
In-Reply-To: <006401be5baa$06ce3da0$33d1b7c7@eric-edwards> from Eric Edwards at "Feb 18, 1999 8:48:59 pm"
To: eekg(a)ix.netcom.com (Eric Edwards)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 14:06:14 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
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In article by Eric Edwards:
> I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this, but you can build a working 2.9
> kernel (sans network) from the sources by just commenting out the references
> to the networking include files. I think there is an offending reference in
> syslocal.c also.
>
> Eric Edwards
> eekg(a)ix.netcom.com
> mag(a)csh.rit.edu
What is happening is that `make depend' invokes a script which finds
#includes in the source code, and builds a make dependency. However,
it's not very intelligent, and doesn't ignore:
#ifdef INET
#include <stuff>
when INET isn't defined. :-) This bites on several C files.
You just have to hand-prune the Makefile after make depend :-)
This is 2.9BSD, BTW, ignore if you're not using it.
Ciao!
Warren
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>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Fri Feb 19 20:19:31 1999
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Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 11:19:31 +0100 (MET)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Venix (was Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h)
In-Reply-To: <199902190157.AA29020(a)world.std.com>
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On Thu, 18 Feb 1999, Allison J Parent wrote:
> <You obviously knows more about this than I do. :-)
> <However, as I said, atleast the DELQA have an M68K...
> <And the DEQNA is old, yes...
>
> DELQA is not 68k, The DEUNA is. The DELQA is a cost reduced version
> (less buggy too) of the DEQNA and is largely logically the same as the
> DEQNA.
Really? I have a DELQA sitting right in front of me, and when I look at
it, the large chip definitely says M68000. What could that be then?
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Fri Feb 19 20:22:35 1999
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Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 11:22:35 +0100 (MET)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: DEQNA (was was Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h)
In-Reply-To: <199902190214.AA14211(a)world.std.com>
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On Thu, 18 Feb 1999, Allison J Parent wrote:
> <The replacement ethernet controller was the DELQA, which was a complete
> <redesign and used a 68000 processor.
>
> The DELQA was not 68000. The board was far to small for that and had to be
> Qbus dual width and compatable with DEQNA. I have a few of them in my vaxen
> too. The Unibus versions DEUNA and the later DELUA were 68k and very good.
Hate to disagree with you, Alison. The the DELQA really is 68000, take a
peek inside yourself. It is a dual-width too...
And the DEUNA is T-11, while the DELUA is 68000.
I have never bothered plugging in any DEUNAs myself, since DELUAs are
pretty common, and they atleast are pretty good. Never had any problems
with any of them.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
<I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply that you were wrong, just that I was.
Not an argument, just posting to the group what went private by error.
<Never looked carefully at RQDX?, but the DELQA uses an M68K, that much I
<*do* know. (As do the DELUA)
Having two Qbus VAXen and several Qbus PDP-11s it's old turf. Also I worked
for DEC Engineering. that and I've done a lot of hardware level work on my
systems (repaired dead boards) so the designs are more familair.
<You obviously knows more about this than I do. :-)
<However, as I said, atleast the DELQA have an M68K...
<And the DEQNA is old, yes...
DELQA is not 68k, The DEUNA is. The DELQA is a cost reduced version
(less buggy too) of the DEQNA and is largely logically the same as the
DEQNA.
<> The DEUNA is quite different.
<
<Obviously. But it is also pretty old. Not as buggy though, which should
<have been a clue. :-)
Also The DELUA.
Allison
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>From "Eric Edwards" <eekg(a)ix.netcom.com> Fri Feb 19 11:48:59 1999
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Message-ID: <006401be5baa$06ce3da0$33d1b7c7@eric-edwards>
From: "Eric Edwards" <eekg(a)ix.netcom.com>
To: "maximum entropy" <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com>,
<pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 20:48:59 -0500
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I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this, but you can build a working 2.9
kernel (sans network) from the sources by just commenting out the references
to the networking include files. I think there is an offending reference in
syslocal.c also.
Eric Edwards
eekg(a)ix.netcom.com
mag(a)csh.rit.edu
-----Original Message-----
From: maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Date: Tuesday, February 16, 1999 11:36 PM
Subject: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h
>"make unix" failed:
>Make: Don't know how to make /usr/include/sys/mbuf.h. Stop.
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>From maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com> Tue Feb 16 23:36:00 1999
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From: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Message-Id: <199902190214.AA14211(a)world.std.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: DEQNA (was was Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h)
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<The DEQNA uses a Intel 8751 (an EPROM version of 8051 family). I suspect th
<it may deal with the programming protocol and the ring buffers. The
<chip with the F (with bars top and bottom of the letter) is probably
<Fujitsu.
Correct on both cases.
<These boards had a fairly bad reputation for lockups and dropped packets.
<There was a 20+ wire ECO along with a PAL chip (with 8 of the pins cut off
<soldered on top of another chip.
Actually there were revs A->n and each rev had a step. The last one was
N-11... it was marginal. Good one tended to be good and the bad were PITA.
Also they tended to fail far often than MTBF predictions.
<The replacement ethernet controller was the DELQA, which was a complete
<redesign and used a 68000 processor.
The DELQA was not 68000. The board was far to small for that and had to be
Qbus dual width and compatable with DEQNA. I have a few of them in my vaxen
too. The Unibus versions DEUNA and the later DELUA were 68k and very good.
They were partly the reason why 730s and 750s were used for routers long
after they were replaced for other tasks.
Allison
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| Just for the sake of being picky... the DEQNA is based on an Intel
| microcontroller chip (something 8085-ish, I think). The ethernet chipset
| seems to be Fairchild (it's certainly got a big F on it.)
|
The DEQNA uses a Intel 8751 (an EPROM version of 8051 family). I suspect that
it may deal with the programming protocol and the ring buffers. The
chip with the F (with bars top and bottom of the letter) is probably
Fujitsu.
These boards had a fairly bad reputation for lockups and dropped packets.
There was a 20+ wire ECO along with a PAL chip (with 8 of the pins cut off)
soldered on top of another chip.
The replacement ethernet controller was the DELQA, which was a complete
redesign and used a 68000 processor.
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>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Fri Feb 19 10:41:03 1999
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From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Venix (was Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h)
In-Reply-To: <199902190022.AA25325(a)world.std.com>
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Hi, Alison.
> <You might not be totally out. I also thought the DEQNA was T-11 based,
> <since the DEUNA is. :-)
>
> I have a DEQNA in front of me. There is a micro and that is a 8751 8bitter.
> The big chip is a LSI ASIC that is a linked list DMA controller. No t-11.
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply that you were wrong, just that I was.
> The RQDXn(n={1,2,3} uses a t-11. The DELQA also does not use a T-11.
Never looked carefully at RQDX?, but the DELQA uses an M68K, that much I
*do* know. (As do the DELUA)
> Both use lots of logic in PALs and ASICs to perform several state machines
> needed for eithenet. At the time of development there were few complete
> and fast enough chipsets for eithernet. The DEQNA is mid 80s design and
> quite old.
You obviously knows more about this than I do. :-)
However, as I said, atleast the DELQA have an M68K...
And the DEQNA is old, yes...
> The DEUNA is quite different.
Obviously. But it is also pretty old. Not as buggy though, which should
have been a clue. :-)
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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<> I'm going to give up as I seem to remember nothing anymore... sigh.
<> Allison also sent e-mail saying the DEQNA is not T-11 based. I guess
<> I'm thinking of an RQDX3. I've had no place to unpack my old iron in
<> over three years and certainly miss being able to pick up the part in
<> question before foaming at the mouth spouting nonsense. Many apologies
<> for suggesting such major inaccuracies. -- Ken
<>
<> P.S. Allison describe the DEQNA as a state-driven device with PALs
<> (I think) and that "big F" may the the gate array also mentioned.
<
<You might not be totally out. I also thought the DEQNA was T-11 based,
<since the DEUNA is. :-)
I have a DEQNA in front of me. There is a micro and that is a 8751 8bitter.
The big chip is a LSI ASIC that is a linked list DMA controller. No t-11.
The RQDXn(n={1,2,3} uses a t-11. The DELQA also does not use a T-11.
Both use lots of logic in PALs and ASICs to perform several state machines
needed for eithenet. At the time of development there were few complete
and fast enough chipsets for eithernet. The DEQNA is mid 80s design and
quite old.
The DEUNA is quite different.
Allison
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My local computer junk store has a VaxMate for sale. I'm not sure of the
model -- It has a DB-25 serial port, 10-base-2 ethernet, and a phone-jack
like printer port on the back, as well as an internal ST-225 hard drive
and a 5.25 inch floppy drive.
Anyway, when I turn it on it tries to boot up -- the graphical slider
thing on the screen gets about 90% of the way across and it displays the
number 83, which I assume is an eeror code since the number changes if you
boot it up with no keyboard. Anyone know what the 83 means or where I can
get a list of VaxMate error codes? Also, how intelligent is this machine
compared to a terminal? Will it actually run a Vax operating system or
does it need a server?
--------------------------------------------------------
"...color flashing thunder crashing dynamite machine..."
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>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Fri Feb 19 09:24:43 1999
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Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 00:24:43 +0100 (MET)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
cc: James Lothian <simul8(a)simul8.demon.co.uk>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Venix (was Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h)
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On Thu, 18 Feb 1999, Ken Wellsch wrote:
> I'm going to give up as I seem to remember nothing anymore... sigh.
> Allison also sent e-mail saying the DEQNA is not T-11 based. I guess
> I'm thinking of an RQDX3. I've had no place to unpack my old iron in
> over three years and certainly miss being able to pick up the part in
> question before foaming at the mouth spouting nonsense. Many apologies
> for suggesting such major inaccuracies. -- Ken
>
> P.S. Allison describe the DEQNA as a state-driven device with PALs
> (I think) and that "big F" may the the gate array also mentioned.
You might not be totally out. I also thought the DEQNA was T-11 based,
since the DEUNA is. :-)
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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<As already mentioned in previous messages, I'm working on getting
<2.9BSD onto a Pro 350. I'm using 2.9BSD as a starting point because
<it claims to support machines without split i/d. The 350 uses the
<F-11 chipset, which I have read does not support split i/d.
The F11 does not do I&D split but does have user/system.
<I would prefer to use 2.11BSD because I understand it's still actively
<used, and not as buggy as 2.9. But everything I've read about 2.11BSD
<says that it needs split i/d to run. Can anyone give me more detail
<about this? Was support for machines without split i/d removed from
<the kernel, or is it just that some of the programs are too big to fit
<in a single 64k segment?
It's my understanding that 2.11 will run on F11 systems (pro350 and 11/23)
if properly configured but the only binaries loose are for split I&D.
So if properly configured you can get 2.11 to utilize the user/system
spaces.
Allison
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu Feb 18 11:25:53 1999
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Subject: Re: 2.11BSD, non-split i/d issues
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Hi -
> From: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
> The F11 does not do I&D split but does have user/system.
Correct. Some systems also have an 18bit only MMU which restricts
memory to 248kb max (others have a 22bit MMU and can physically
have more memory).
> It's my understanding that 2.11 will run on F11 systems (pro350 and 11/23)
> if properly configured but the only binaries loose are for split I&D.
Not likely. The kernel won't fit in 48kb that I know of. And there
will be no networking support since that requires supervisor mode
which non-split I/D systems don't have.
> So if properly configured you can get 2.11 to utilize the user/system spaces.
The skeleton of a Makefile for non-split a kernel exists but it
will take much work (it is essentially just a list of file that may
or may not be 100% current) to kick into shape. Also, remember that
programs like 'csh', 'vi' and so on are not only split I/D but
overlaid - they will not run on a non-split machine.
Steven Schultz
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>From Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> Thu Feb 18 11:43:27 1999
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From: Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-Id: <199902180143.UAA01509(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Subject: Re: Venix (was Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h)
To: djenner(a)halcyon.com
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 20:43:27 -0500 (EST)
Cc: entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <36CAEA1F.D5D7C838(a)halcyon.com> from "David C. Jenner" at Feb 17, 99 08:11:12 am
Organization: University of Waterloo, Math Faculty Computing Facility (Alumni)
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| I don't have any docs on the DECNA, but they must exist. It's
| probably pretty close to the DEQNA.
The DECNA uses one of the earlier Intel network chips. It lives
on the CTI bus, a bus like no other. I believe the DEQNA is T-11
based and lives on the vastly better known Q-bus... -- Ken
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>From Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> Fri Feb 19 04:46:35 1999
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From: Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-Id: <199902181846.NAA05766(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Subject: Re: Venix (was Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h)
To: simul8(a)simul8.demon.co.uk (James Lothian)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 13:46:35 -0500 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <01BE5B64.56247680@SONAR> from "James Lothian" at Feb 18, 99 01:14:51 pm
Organization: University of Waterloo, Math Faculty Computing Facility (Alumni)
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I'm going to give up as I seem to remember nothing anymore... sigh.
Allison also sent e-mail saying the DEQNA is not T-11 based. I guess
I'm thinking of an RQDX3. I've had no place to unpack my old iron in
over three years and certainly miss being able to pick up the part in
question before foaming at the mouth spouting nonsense. Many apologies
for suggesting such major inaccuracies. -- Ken
P.S. Allison describe the DEQNA as a state-driven device with PALs
(I think) and that "big F" may the the gate array also mentioned.
| From simul8(a)simul8.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 18 12:27:23 1999
|
| Just for the sake of being picky... the DEQNA is based on an Intel
| microcontroller chip (something 8085-ish, I think). The ethernet chipset
| seems to be Fairchild (it's certainly got a big F on it.)
|
| James
<Venix/Pro is freely available on the Internet at ftp.update.uu.se,
<but Pro/Venix seems to be a little harder to find. Pro/Venix is
<much to be preferred because you can reconfigure the kernel (in
<binary) to include different drivers, etc.
The UU.SE and gatway.dec.com version of it I ahve running on my PRO-350
for the last year or more.
I'd like to have SLIP/PPP running on it or even be able to tweek it.
< 1) Could this be a PUPS addition, if a good copy be found?
Oh hand I'd say yes.
Allison
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In article by David C. Jenner:
> It seems to me that Pro/Venix is a potential candidate for the PUPS
> archive, the snag being DEC/Compaq residual interests in it. PUPS
> covers the AT&T part, VenturCom has "given away" their part, and
> DEC/Compaq is all that's left.
>
> So:
> 1) Could this be a PUPS addition, if a good copy be found?
> 2) If someone has a copy, but worries about the DEC/Compaq
> aspects, can a good copy of the disks I have be acquired?
> (Anyone in this category might want to respond directly
> to me instead of posting to the mailing lists.) After
> all a PUPS licensee is 99.999% covered, and DEC/Compaq
> objections are probably to worry about the AT&T part,
> which the Ancient Unix license covers...
>
> Dave
If we could get DEC/Compaq to allow access to Pro/Venix by UNIX source
license holders, then yes I would certainly add it to the Archive. If
there's no source code, and SCO are happy, then it could go up for anon ftp.
Cheers,
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Feb 18 09:18:40 1999
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199902172318.KAA18083(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Help with regs on Pro serial ports
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:18:40 +1100 (EST)
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I'm trying to help get the kernel for the version of 2.9BSD ported to the
Pro-350. The patches supplied by Rick Macklem are slightly incomplete, e.g
there is no config shell script which knows about the new device drivers etc.
Anyway, one vital missing file is pcreg.h, which holds the structure
describing the registers of the serial ports on the Pro-350. By perusing
the file dev/pc.c, I've worked out that the struct looks something like:
struct pcdevice {
??? baud;
??? cdb;
??? csa;
??? csb;
??? csr;
??? dbuf;
??? mc0;
??? mc1;
??? mode;
??? stat;
}
where the fields are not in the correct order, and I have no idea what
C type each is. If anybody can help recreate this file, could they
email me?!
I've included below the C comments at the top of dev/pc.c.
If anybody has Rick Macklem's email address, could they pass that on too?
I will email him and see if he's got a more complete set of patches somewhere.
Many thanks in advance,
Warren
/*
* This driver handles the two serial ports on the back of the
* pro3xx system unit. Although not software compatible, they
* are handled as minor device 0 & 1 respectively, for the printer
* and communication port. Modem control is included but no sync
* serial support for the com. port.
* NOTE: The DSR line in the printer port is used for carrier
* detect so terminals or modems should be cabled accordingly.
* Local terminal cables should jumper DTR-CDT so that the carrier
* will appear to be up or PC_SOFTCAR defined and devs or'd with 0200.
* NOTE2: The interrupt service routines are as follows:
* plrint - printer port receive
* plxint - printer port transmit
* cmintr - communication port com. interrupt
* Modem transition interrupts are NOT used.
*/
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I'm trying to compile a 2.9BSD kernel using the distribution from the
pups archive.
"make unix" failed:
Make: Don't know how to make /usr/include/sys/mbuf.h. Stop.
I looked in the usr.tar from the distribution, and I don't see mbuf.h
anywhere.
Does anyone know where I can find a copy of this file?
Cheers,
entropy
--
entropy -- it's not just a good idea, it's the second law.
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Feb 17 15:15:02 1999
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From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199902170515.VAA23159(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h
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Hi -
> I'm trying to compile a 2.9BSD kernel using the distribution from the
> pups archive.
>
> "make unix" failed:
> Make: Don't know how to make /usr/include/sys/mbuf.h. Stop.
>
> I looked in the usr.tar from the distribution, and I don't see mbuf.h
> anywhere.
>
> Does anyone know where I can find a copy of this file?
That's not _all_ your missing ;-)
Unless you have the 1985 Seismo (or Harvard - depends where you
got the tape from) update tape to 2.9 the networking code won't
compile much less run. Been there, done that. It was a fun couple
weeks coming to the realization that the networking code hadn't
been fully integrated and compiled in 2.9
I believe the 2.9-Seismo update is in the PUPS archive (should be
on the CD but my memory isn't ECC these days ;-)). It's a fairly
painful upgrade process because it changes the a.out header format
for overlaid processes (goes from 7 to 15 overlays). If you're not
real careful you'll have (as I did ;-)) a real mess: can't finish
the upgrade because the old kernel doesn't support the new overlaid
processes but you can't build a new kernel because doing so needs
those processes. Something like that. It was "interesting" ;)
Steven Schultz
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Feb 17 15:26:09 1999
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199902170526.QAA14818(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h
In-Reply-To: <199902170515.VAA23159(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Feb 16, 1999 9:15: 2 pm"
To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 16:26:09 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
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In article by Steven M. Schultz:
> Hi -
>
> > I'm trying to compile a 2.9BSD kernel using the distribution from the
> > pups archive.
> > Make: Don't know how to make /usr/include/sys/mbuf.h. Stop.
> > Does anyone know where I can find a copy of this file?
>
> That's not _all_ your missing ;-)
>
> Unless you have the 1985 Seismo (or Harvard - depends where you
> got the tape from) update tape to 2.9 the networking code won't
> compile much less run. Been there, done that. It was a fun couple
> weeks coming to the realization that the networking code hadn't
> been fully integrated and compiled in 2.9
>
> I believe the 2.9-Seismo update is in the PUPS archive (should be
> on the CD but my memory isn't ECC these days ;-)). It's a fairly
> painful upgrade process because it changes the a.out header format
> for overlaid processes (goes from 7 to 15 overlays). If you're not
> real careful you'll have (as I did ;-)) a real mess: can't finish
> the upgrade because the old kernel doesn't support the new overlaid
> processes but you can't build a new kernel because doing so needs
> those processes. Something like that. It was "interesting" ;)
>
> Steven Schultz
Don't worry, Nicholas is trying to patch 2.9 to get it to run on a Pro.
I'm sure he will keep us informed :-)
'Night!
Warren
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>From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Wed Feb 17 16:00:45 1999
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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 22:00:45 -0800
From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com>
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To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
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PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h
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Speaking of the Pro, I have one and have been trying to get Venix
to run on it. The rub is, there are two versions: one directly from
VenturCom (Venix/Pro) and one licensed through DEC (Pro/Venix).
Venix/Pro is freely available on the Internet at ftp.update.uu.se,
but Pro/Venix seems to be a little harder to find. Pro/Venix is
much to be preferred because you can reconfigure the kernel (in
binary) to include different drivers, etc.
I've been able to acquire all the documentation and all (almost) the
disks for Pro/Venix 2.0. A couple of the disks are apparently
unusable or missing in the set I have.
It seems to me that Pro/Venix is a potential candidate for the PUPS
archive, the snag being DEC/Compaq residual interests in it. PUPS
covers the AT&T part, VenturCom has "given away" their part, and
DEC/Compaq is all that's left.
So:
1) Could this be a PUPS addition, if a good copy be found?
2) If someone has a copy, but worries about the DEC/Compaq
aspects, can a good copy of the disks I have be acquired?
(Anyone in this category might want to respond directly
to me instead of posting to the mailing lists.) After
all a PUPS licensee is 99.999% covered, and DEC/Compaq
objections are probably to worry about the AT&T part,
which the Ancient Unix license covers...
Actually, I'm amazed I've gotten as far as I have with this, because
I've been pretty passive about finding it. It's only taken 2 years
so far.
Dave
Warren Toomey wrote:
>
> In article by Steven M. Schultz:
> > Hi -
> >
> > > I'm trying to compile a 2.9BSD kernel using the distribution from the
> > > pups archive.
> > > Make: Don't know how to make /usr/include/sys/mbuf.h. Stop.
> > > Does anyone know where I can find a copy of this file?
> >
> > That's not _all_ your missing ;-)
> >
> > Unless you have the 1985 Seismo (or Harvard - depends where you
> > got the tape from) update tape to 2.9 the networking code won't
> > compile much less run. Been there, done that. It was a fun couple
> > weeks coming to the realization that the networking code hadn't
> > been fully integrated and compiled in 2.9
> >
> > I believe the 2.9-Seismo update is in the PUPS archive (should be
> > on the CD but my memory isn't ECC these days ;-)). It's a fairly
> > painful upgrade process because it changes the a.out header format
> > for overlaid processes (goes from 7 to 15 overlays). If you're not
> > real careful you'll have (as I did ;-)) a real mess: can't finish
> > the upgrade because the old kernel doesn't support the new overlaid
> > processes but you can't build a new kernel because doing so needs
> > those processes. Something like that. It was "interesting" ;)
> >
> > Steven Schultz
>
> Don't worry, Nicholas is trying to patch 2.9 to get it to run on a Pro.
> I'm sure he will keep us informed :-)
>
> 'Night!
>
> Warren
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>From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Wed Feb 17 16:00:45 1999
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Subject: Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h
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Speaking of the Pro, I have one and have been trying to get Venix
to run on it. The rub is, there are two versions: one directly from
VenturCom (Venix/Pro) and one licensed through DEC (Pro/Venix).
Venix/Pro is freely available on the Internet at ftp.update.uu.se,
but Pro/Venix seems to be a little harder to find. Pro/Venix is
much to be preferred because you can reconfigure the kernel (in
binary) to include different drivers, etc.
I've been able to acquire all the documentation and all (almost) the
disks for Pro/Venix 2.0. A couple of the disks are apparently
unusable or missing in the set I have.
It seems to me that Pro/Venix is a potential candidate for the PUPS
archive, the snag being DEC/Compaq residual interests in it. PUPS
covers the AT&T part, VenturCom has "given away" their part, and
DEC/Compaq is all that's left.
So:
1) Could this be a PUPS addition, if a good copy be found?
2) If someone has a copy, but worries about the DEC/Compaq
aspects, can a good copy of the disks I have be acquired?
(Anyone in this category might want to respond directly
to me instead of posting to the mailing lists.) After
all a PUPS licensee is 99.999% covered, and DEC/Compaq
objections are probably to worry about the AT&T part,
which the Ancient Unix license covers...
Actually, I'm amazed I've gotten as far as I have with this, because
I've been pretty passive about finding it. It's only taken 2 years
so far.
Dave
Warren Toomey wrote:
>
> In article by Steven M. Schultz:
> > Hi -
> >
> > > I'm trying to compile a 2.9BSD kernel using the distribution from the
> > > pups archive.
> > > Make: Don't know how to make /usr/include/sys/mbuf.h. Stop.
> > > Does anyone know where I can find a copy of this file?
> >
> > That's not _all_ your missing ;-)
> >
> > Unless you have the 1985 Seismo (or Harvard - depends where you
> > got the tape from) update tape to 2.9 the networking code won't
> > compile much less run. Been there, done that. It was a fun couple
> > weeks coming to the realization that the networking code hadn't
> > been fully integrated and compiled in 2.9
> >
> > I believe the 2.9-Seismo update is in the PUPS archive (should be
> > on the CD but my memory isn't ECC these days ;-)). It's a fairly
> > painful upgrade process because it changes the a.out header format
> > for overlaid processes (goes from 7 to 15 overlays). If you're not
> > real careful you'll have (as I did ;-)) a real mess: can't finish
> > the upgrade because the old kernel doesn't support the new overlaid
> > processes but you can't build a new kernel because doing so needs
> > those processes. Something like that. It was "interesting" ;)
> >
> > Steven Schultz
>
> Don't worry, Nicholas is trying to patch 2.9 to get it to run on a Pro.
> I'm sure he will keep us informed :-)
>
> 'Night!
>
> Warren
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>From maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com> Wed Feb 17 18:22:50 1999
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Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 03:22:50 -0500 (EST)
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From: maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com>
To: djenner(a)halcyon.com
CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-reply-to: <36CA5B0D.8A2B2629(a)halcyon.com> (djenner(a)halcyon.com)
Subject: Venix (was Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h)
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>Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 22:00:45 -0800
>From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com>
>
>Speaking of the Pro, I have one and have been trying to get Venix
>to run on it. The rub is, there are two versions: one directly from
>VenturCom (Venix/Pro) and one licensed through DEC (Pro/Venix).
Interesting...I know there's a Venix 1.0 and a Venix 2.0. I thought
they were both from Venturcom, with 1.0 being for the Pro-350 and 2.0
for the Pro-380. I never heard of a distinction between Venix/Pro
vs. Pro/Venix. Then again, I got into this game fairly late...I
bought my used Pro-350 around 1993 for US$100, with Venix 1.0 already
installed (also with original install media and docs).
>Venix/Pro is freely available on the Internet at ftp.update.uu.se,
>but Pro/Venix seems to be a little harder to find. Pro/Venix is
>much to be preferred because you can reconfigure the kernel (in
>binary) to include different drivers, etc.
>
>I've been able to acquire all the documentation and all (almost) the
>disks for Pro/Venix 2.0. A couple of the disks are apparently
>unusable or missing in the set I have.
I have the following archives of Venix-related stuff that I snagged
from the net a few years back. If you think any of them might contain
what you're looking for, let me know and I'll give more detail about
their contents.
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 3833 Oct 17 1997 README
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 532 Oct 17 1997 README.VAX
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 30819 Oct 17 1997 RX50.notes
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 2530759 Oct 17 1997 Venix1.tar.Z
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 2503931 Oct 17 1997 Venix2.tar.Z
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 15817 Oct 17 1997 cathang.txt
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 332543 Oct 17 1997 mopimage.tar.Z
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 443 Oct 17 1997 nbsdrx50.readme
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 897510 Oct 17 1997 nbsdrx50.zip
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 155648 Oct 17 1997 pppd
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 193536 Oct 17 1997 pr0801eng.sys
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 14153 Oct 17 1997 raind112.zip
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 6621 Oct 17 1997 rx50.zip
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 81152 Oct 17 1997 teledisk.zip
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 61440 Oct 17 1997 venix.tar
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 116 Oct 17 1997 venix1.readme
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 1119490 Oct 17 1997 venix1s.zip
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 1095824 Oct 17 1997 venix1u.zip
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 424 Oct 17 1997 venix2.readme
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 1058970 Oct 17 1997 venix2s.zip
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 1145720 Oct 17 1997 venix2u.zip
-rw-r--r-- 1 entropy user 332362 Oct 17 1997 vnx2u2u5.zip
--
entropy -- it's not just a good idea, it's the second law.
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Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 03:32:05 -0500 (EST)
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From: maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com>
To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
In-reply-to: <199902170515.VAA23159(a)moe.2bsd.com> (sms(a)moe.2bsd.com)
Subject: Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h
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>Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 21:15:02 -0800 (PST)
>From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
>
> I believe the 2.9-Seismo update is in the PUPS archive (should be
> on the CD but my memory isn't ECC these days ;-)). It's a fairly
> painful upgrade process because it changes the a.out header format
> for overlaid processes (goes from 7 to 15 overlays). If you're not
> real careful you'll have (as I did ;-)) a real mess: can't finish
> the upgrade because the old kernel doesn't support the new overlaid
> processes but you can't build a new kernel because doing so needs
> those processes. Something like that. It was "interesting" ;)
Sounds like fun. Any hints on the correct upgrade path to avoid this
lossage?
Better yet, would you be willing and able to upload a disk image or
tar file of an upgraded system to the PUPS archive (or directly to me
if it's not of general interest), so I could use that as a starting
point?
Cheers,
entropy
--
entropy -- it's not just a good idea, it's the second law.
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>From maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com> Wed Feb 17 18:42:40 1999
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Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 03:42:40 -0500 (EST)
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From: maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: 2.11BSD, non-split i/d issues
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As already mentioned in previous messages, I'm working on getting
2.9BSD onto a Pro 350. I'm using 2.9BSD as a starting point because
it claims to support machines without split i/d. The 350 uses the
F-11 chipset, which I have read does not support split i/d.
I would prefer to use 2.11BSD because I understand it's still actively
used, and not as buggy as 2.9. But everything I've read about 2.11BSD
says that it needs split i/d to run. Can anyone give me more detail
about this? Was support for machines without split i/d removed from
the kernel, or is it just that some of the programs are too big to fit
in a single 64k segment?
--
entropy -- it's not just a good idea, it's the second law.
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>From Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> Thu Feb 18 00:35:30 1999
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From: Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-Id: <199902171435.JAA12462(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Subject: Re: Venix (was Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h)
To: entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com (maximum entropy)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:35:30 -0500 (EST)
Cc: djenner(a)halcyon.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199902170822.DAA24861(a)zippy.bernstein.com> from "maximum entropy" at Feb 17, 99 03:22:50 am
Organization: University of Waterloo, Math Faculty Computing Facility (Alumni)
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| Interesting...I know there's a Venix 1.0 and a Venix 2.0. I thought
| they were both from Venturcom, with 1.0 being for the Pro-350 and 2.0
| for the Pro-380. I never heard of a distinction between Venix/Pro
| vs. Pro/Venix. Then again, I got into this game fairly late...I
| bought my used Pro-350 around 1993 for US$100, with Venix 1.0 already
| installed (also with original install media and docs).
My time playing with Pro's faded out before Venix 2 was available (free)
for me to try. I've played a fair bit with Venix 1.1 on both Pro 350's
and Pro 380's. The Venix 1 series I feel is basically V6 derived while
I understood the Venix 2 series was derived from Sys III.
About a year ago Rick Macklem that did a port to the Pro series mailed
me his "Pro stuff" which included a tape and floppies. I've forgotten
what all is in that stash, but taking a peek at some old mail he mentions:
> The stuff I did went out on a Usenix distribution tape in about 1983/84
> and had to be merged into a 2.9BSD distribution. I did generate floppy
> sets for a few people, because that was the only easy way to get it
> installed. (The first install here was actually done by downloading the
> kernel over the serial port talking to the PDP 11 prom (ODS?).)
I had thought his set of patches were in the PUPS archive. In fact I
see the patches under PUPS/Distributions/ucb/2.9-pro350.
-- Ken
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>From Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> Thu Feb 18 00:42:05 1999
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From: Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-Id: <199902171442.JAA15916(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Subject: Re: 2.11BSD, non-split i/d issues
To: entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com (maximum entropy)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:42:05 -0500 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199902170842.DAA24887(a)zippy.bernstein.com> from "maximum entropy" at Feb 17, 99 03:42:40 am
Organization: University of Waterloo, Math Faculty Computing Facility (Alumni)
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| I would prefer to use 2.11BSD because I understand it's still actively
| used, and not as buggy as 2.9. But everything I've read about 2.11BSD
| says that it needs split i/d to run. Can anyone give me more detail
| about this? Was support for machines without split i/d removed from
| the kernel, or is it just that some of the programs are too big to fit
| in a single 64k segment?
Have you been able to acquire the documentation for the DECNA card? I
think that is roughly what it is called. The Pro Ethernet card. A few
old timers like myself and Dan Lanciani talked years ago about running
things on a Pro and no-one seems to know much about this relatively
critical bit of documentation. Again referring to Rick Macklem's
correspondence (I believe I was asking him, again, about these docs):
> Well, the short answer is "I'm not sure what the answers are". At one
> point someone mentioned they were putting the Pro stuff into 2BSD, but
> I'm not sure if they actually did it. (The guys that used it the most
> had it running on a lab of Pro380s at Columbia U. (I think. It's the
> one right in NY city.)) His name was Charlie Kim (again, I think?) and
> did some stuff to it so that it worked reasonably well on a Pro380, but
> I have no idea how you might find him now. (It was a real dog on a Pro350
> because it didn't have separate I and D space.)
The rumors we were able to find all pointed to this place and person
WRT documentation for the ethernet card.
-- Ken
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>From maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com> Thu Feb 18 01:11:36 1999
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Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:11:36 -0500 (EST)
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From: maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com>
To: kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca
CC: djenner(a)halcyon.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-reply-to: <199902171435.JAA12462(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> (message from Ken
Wellsch on Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:35:30 -0500 (EST))
Subject: Re: Venix (was Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h)
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>From: Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
>Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:35:30 -0500 (EST)
>
>About a year ago Rick Macklem that did a port to the Pro series mailed
>me his "Pro stuff" which included a tape and floppies. I've forgotten
>what all is in that stash, but taking a peek at some old mail he mentions:
Would you be able to send images (rx50 teledisk, or plain dd dumps) of
these disks to me or to the archive?
>I had thought his set of patches were in the PUPS archive. In fact I
>see the patches under PUPS/Distributions/ucb/2.9-pro350.
Those files aren't 100% complete. Excerpt of a mail I sent last night
to Warren Toomey:
#The instructions in boot.doc are mangled.
#The patches included are reversed, and didn't apply cleanly to one of
#the files (/usr/src/net/sys/sys/machdep.c). Also, it looks like the
#guy that produced that set of changes forgot to include his
#modifications to /usr/src/sys/conf/config, but I managed to hack
#together something that might work.
Then there's the fact that the 2.9 distribution won't even compile,
and the 2.9 upgrade patches are a nightmare...
Maybe I'll just stick to venix :-)
Cheers,
entropy
--
entropy -- it's not just a good idea, it's the second law.
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From: maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com>
To: kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca
CC: djenner(a)halcyon.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-reply-to: <199902171435.JAA12462(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> (message from Ken
Wellsch on Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:35:30 -0500 (EST))
Subject: Re: Venix (was Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h)
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>From: Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
>Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:35:30 -0500 (EST)
>
>About a year ago Rick Macklem that did a port to the Pro series mailed
>me his "Pro stuff" which included a tape and floppies. I've forgotten
>what all is in that stash, but taking a peek at some old mail he mentions:
Would you be able to send images (rx50 teledisk, or plain dd dumps) of
these disks to me or to the archive?
>I had thought his set of patches were in the PUPS archive. In fact I
>see the patches under PUPS/Distributions/ucb/2.9-pro350.
Those files aren't 100% complete. Excerpt of a mail I sent last night
to Warren Toomey:
#The instructions in boot.doc are mangled.d
#The patches included are reversed, and didn't apply cleanly to one of
#the files (/usr/src/net/sys/sys/machdep.c). Also, it looks like the
#guy that produced that set of changes forgot to include his
#modifications to /usr/src/sys/conf/config, but I managed to hack
#together something that might work.
Then there's the fact that the 2.9 distribution won't even compile,
and the 2.9 upgrade patches are a nightmare...
Maybe I'll just stick to venix :-)
Cheers,
entropy
--
entropy -- it's not just a good idea, it's the second law.
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>From maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com> Thu Feb 18 02:11:24 1999
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From: maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com>
To: kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca
CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-reply-to: <199902171442.JAA15916(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> (message from Ken
Wellsch on Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:42:05 -0500 (EST))
Subject: Re: 2.11BSD, non-split i/d issues
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>From: Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
>Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:42:05 -0500 (EST)
>
>Have you been able to acquire the documentation for the DECNA card? I
I haven't looked for it. The DECNA is optional, and my Pro doesn't
have it. All Pro's came with an AUI port, but without the card it
doesn't do anything.
--
entropy -- it's not just a good idea, it's the second law.
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>From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Thu Feb 18 02:11:12 1999
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To: Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
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Subject: Re: Venix (was Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h)
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I haven't tried the 2.9 stuff at all on a Pro. I have had it
running on an 11/23+ (w/binary license) for 10 years. The
problem is the networking, as you have found.
Venix/Pro 1.1 and 2.0 run just fine on the Pro 380, and it's
pretty painless to install. I have distribution disks for
Pro/Venix 1.1, but the install disk has apparently been
overwritten with the 2.0 installation disk. And my distribution
for 2.0 is missing a couple of original disks; I have copies of
those disks, but they get read errors.
I guess the 2.9 stuff would be interesting if you got it to
work on the Pro, especially if you got networking to work.
I don't have any docs on the DECNA, but they must exist. It's
probably pretty close to the DEQNA.
Dave
Ken Wellsch wrote:
>
> | Interesting...I know there's a Venix 1.0 and a Venix 2.0. I thought
> | they were both from Venturcom, with 1.0 being for the Pro-350 and 2.0
> | for the Pro-380. I never heard of a distinction between Venix/Pro
> | vs. Pro/Venix. Then again, I got into this game fairly late...I
> | bought my used Pro-350 around 1993 for US$100, with Venix 1.0 already
> | installed (also with original install media and docs).
>
> My time playing with Pro's faded out before Venix 2 was available (free)
> for me to try. I've played a fair bit with Venix 1.1 on both Pro 350's
> and Pro 380's. The Venix 1 series I feel is basically V6 derived while
> I understood the Venix 2 series was derived from Sys III.
>
> About a year ago Rick Macklem that did a port to the Pro series mailed
> me his "Pro stuff" which included a tape and floppies. I've forgotten
> what all is in that stash, but taking a peek at some old mail he mentions:
>
> > The stuff I did went out on a Usenix distribution tape in about 1983/84
> > and had to be merged into a 2.9BSD distribution. I did generate floppy
> > sets for a few people, because that was the only easy way to get it
> > installed. (The first install here was actually done by downloading the
> > kernel over the serial port talking to the PDP 11 prom (ODS?).)
>
> I had thought his set of patches were in the PUPS archive. In fact I
> see the patches under PUPS/Distributions/ucb/2.9-pro350.
>
> -- Ken
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu Feb 18 02:15:01 1999
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Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 08:15:01 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199902171615.IAA02324(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com, sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
Subject: Re: 2.9BSD: mbuf.h
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Hi
> Sounds like fun. Any hints on the correct upgrade path to avoid this
> lossage?
Oh, it's not _completely_ irrecoverable and is "fun" in a perverse
way.
First go thru all of the executable directories (/bin, /usr/bin,...)
and identify all of the overlaid executables and save copies of them.
Shouldn't be too many but the important one is 'ex'/'vi'. A number
of programs rely on using 'ex' scripts to edit generated files (the
kernel makefiles are _good_ examples;)), and so on. Having an older
copy of 'ex'/'vi' is the main thing I remember as saving the day.
> Better yet, would you be willing and able to upload a disk image or
> tar file of an upgraded system to the PUPS archive (or directly to me
Oh, I have no 2.9 systems - this was all done 10 years ago. The
systems I run now use MSCP/TMSCP devices and 2.9 lacks support
for those.
Steve
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu Feb 18 02:32:00 1999
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Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 08:32:00 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199902171632.IAA02404(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: 2.11BSD, non-split i/d issues
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Hi -
> From: maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com>
> I would prefer to use 2.11BSD because I understand it's still actively
> used, and not as buggy as 2.9. But everything I've read about 2.11BSD
> says that it needs split i/d to run. Can anyone give me more detail
> about this? Was support for machines without split i/d removed from
> the kernel, or is it just that some of the programs are too big to fit
> in a single 64k segment?
Oh, support was NOT removed. Non-split executables (magic number
0407 and 0410) will still run.
The kernel will not fit - without split I/D it is impossible to
create a /unix image that fits within a single 64kb (actually 48kb
since the kernel stack takes 1 segment and the 'u' area takes
another) address space.
I actually went thru the exercise once (2.10 era) of creating a bare
bones kernel that would fit in - at least the linker said it would.
That was only done by ripping out lots of stuff - no networking, no
statistics gathering, almost no drivers, etc. Never 'ran' it though
since there seemed to be little point in such a stripped down system.
Even V7 was hard pressed to run on a non-split machine! In fact there
was a paper written about shoehorning V7 onto an 11/40 and the hoops
that needed to be jumped thru. Not sure but that document might be
in the /usr/doc tree of one of the PUPS Distributions hierarchy.
Steven
My new address is:
13444 Euclid Ave. Apt. 215
East Cleveland, OH 44112
USA
My new phone # is 216-761-3656 (voice mail not set up yet, will be done in a
couple of days).
I'm still not quite done with all move-related work, so it will be a few more
days before I catch up with my E-mail.
My hardware is laid out a lot better at the new place than at the old one, so
when I'm done hooking everything up, I'll have much better work conditions for
my Project. Also the new place is physically closer to the building where all
Cleveland ISPs are located, reducing the cost of leased lines and increasing
the probability of me getting one some day.
With the hardware taking up most of the space, I originally thought that my
apartment would look like Agent Mulder's, but it actually ended up being more
like Agent Scully's. Oh well, her place is pretty nice too, and so is mine now.
Just a reminder to all Quasijarus Project folks living in the USA, be sure to
watch the X-Files this evening. They'll finally tell us what really happened to
Mulder's sister, who is the cigarette-smoking man, and all the other cool
stuff.
Special Agent Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 216-761-3656
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
> From owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Wed Feb 3 11:35 PST 1999
> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 11:11:56 -0800 (PDT)
> From: Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com>
> To: PUPS Mailing List <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
> Subject: MicroVAX I console port question.
> Mime-Version: 1.0
>
> Off-topic, but maybe somewhat related to MicroPDP-11's... I've got a
> MicroVAX I in a BA23 enclosure. I'm presently a bit thrown by the serial
> console port. I'm used to the 9pin MicroVAX II ports. From what I've
> been told, the DB25-M connector for the console requires a special serial
> cable for connecting the MicroVAX I up to a terminal. A null modem cable
> is not adequate.
My MicroVax (I and only) handbook vintage 1984 says the cable is a "BC22D-10".
VAX Systems and Options Catalog Oct 1984 describes the BC22D-10 as
"A fully shielded null modem cable". Two DB25F connectors, 6 wires.
The pins in use are 1,2,3,6,7,20. I would expect that "null modem"
means (from one end to the other) connect 2-3, 3-2, 7-7, 6-20, 20-6.
The implication is that the computer might need to see DTR asserted
before it talks to the terminal.
carl
carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego
{decvax|ucbvax} !ucsd!mpl!cdl cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu
clowenstein(a)ucsd.edu
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>From Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com> Thu Feb 4 07:24:36 1999
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From: Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com>
To: Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: MicroVAX I console port question.
In-Reply-To: <199902032037.MAA03843(a)mpl.ucsd.edu>
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On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Carl Lowenstein wrote:
> My MicroVax (I and only) handbook vintage 1984 says the cable is a "BC22D-10".
>
> VAX Systems and Options Catalog Oct 1984 describes the BC22D-10 as
> "A fully shielded null modem cable". Two DB25F connectors, 6 wires.
>
> The pins in use are 1,2,3,6,7,20. I would expect that "null modem"
> means (from one end to the other) connect 2-3, 3-2, 7-7, 6-20, 20-6.
>
> The implication is that the computer might need to see DTR asserted
> before it talks to the terminal.
Or given that everything seems to be fine on my end null modem cable-wise,
it's possible that something more serious is wrong with my MicroVAX I.
Does your handbook list what a flashing "1" LED error code means?
I'll double-check my cabling as well.
-brian.
---
Brian "JARAI" Chase | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ | VAXZilla LIVES!!!
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>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Fri Feb 5 05:07:56 1999
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Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 20:07:56 +0100 (MET)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Memory Management
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On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Erin W. Corliss wrote:
> The documentation that Warren gave me describes the memory management
> scheme. It says that when the machine is first started, the memory
> management unit is disabled -- anyone know how to enable it, and where the
> segmentation registers are (I'm assuming they are in the 0160000-0177777
> range somewhere)?
I haven't seen anyone answering this, so here I go...
Reg. Addr.
MMR0 777572
MMR1 777574
MMR2 777576
MMR3 772516
UIPAR 777640-777656
UDPAR 777660-777676
UIPDR 777600-777616
UDPDR 777620-777636
SIPAR 772240-772256
SDPAR 772260-772276
SIPDR 772200-772216
SDPDR 772220-772236
KIPAR 772340-772356
KDPAR 772360-772376
KIPDR 772300-772316
KDPDR 772320-772336
xy in xyP?R is:
x: U - User
S - Supervisor
K - Kernel
y: I - Instruction
D - Data
PAR is Page Address Register
PDR is Page Description Register
Okay, so for the layout of the registers...
MMR0:
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
! ! ! ! ! ! ! \-/ ! \---/ +-- Enable relocation
! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! +------ Page number
! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! +---------- Page address space I/D
! ! ! ! ! ! ! +------------- Page mode
! ! ! ! ! ! +---------------- Instruction completed
! ! ! ! ! +------------------ Maintenance mode
! ! ! ! +-------------------- Enable memory management trap
! ! ! +-------------------------- Trap-Memory management
! ! +---------------------------- Abort-Read only access violation
! +------------------------------ Abort-Page length error
+-------------------------------- Abort-Non resident
The page info is for when a trap/fault occurs, and tells in which page it
occured.The rest should be pretty obvious.
MMR1:
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
\-------/ \---/ \-------/ \---/
! ! ! +---- Register number
! ! +------------ Amount changed (2 compl.)
! +-------------------- Register numbe
+---------------------------- Amount changed (2 compl.)
Low byte is written first, and this register tells how much registers have
changed part way through an instruction, which needs to be undone to start
the intruction again.
MMR2:
Virtual address of instruction where fault occured.
MMR3:
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
! ! ! ! +--- Enable user D space
! ! ! +----- Enable supervisor D space
! ! +------- Enable kernel D space
! +----------- Enable 22-bit mapping
+------------- Enable unibus map
If 22-bit mapping isn't enabled, the machine will be in 18-bit addressign
when MMU is enabled. Unibus-mapping is something I'll skip for now. You
need it for DMA on a 22-bit unibus machine only.
Note that at the end of a MMU trap/abort, MMR0 bit 15-12 must be cleared
for MMR1 and MMR2 to become active again.
>From a virtual address (VA), you get to the physical address (PA) like
this:
APF=VA[15:13]
DF=VA[12:0]
PA=PAR(APF)*64+DF
The PDR looks loke this:
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
\-----------/ ! ! ! \---/
! ! ! ! +----- ACF
! ! ! +--------- ED
! ! +--------------- W
! +----------------- A
+------------------------- PLF
ACF - Access Control Field
000 - Non resident; abort on all accesses
001 - Read only; abort on write attempt, memory mgmt trap on read
010 - Read only; abort on write attempt
011 - Unused; abort on all accesses - reserved for future use
100 - Read/Write; memory mgmt trap upon completion of read or write
101 - Read/Write; memory mgmt trap upon completion of write
110 - Read/Write; no system trap/abort action
111 - Unused; abort on all accesses - reserved for future use
A - Access to page has been made.
W - Page has been written to since PAR/PDR was loaded
ED - Expansion direction
PLF - Page length field
Now, have fun...
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Off-topic, but maybe somewhat related to MicroPDP-11's... I've got a
MicroVAX I in a BA23 enclosure. I'm presently a bit thrown by the serial
console port. I'm used to the 9pin MicroVAX II ports. From what I've
been told, the DB25-M connector for the console requires a special serial
cable for connecting the MicroVAX I up to a terminal. A null modem cable
is not adequate.
First, I just wanted to verify that this is correct. So far I haven't
been able to access a console prompt using either a null modem cable, or a
straight through cable. So either the system isn't working correctly, or
I need to get the cable right. Secondly, if it does require a special
cable, then what are the pinouts for that cable?
I'm guessing that aside from the processor itself, the MicroVAX I is
probably a lot closer in design to its contemporary MicroPDP-11 systems.
So I'm hoping that the 25pin console port is simillar to what some of you
have worked with on your Q-bus PDP-11's.
-brian.
---
Brian "JARAI" Chase | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ | VAXZilla LIVES!!!
Dear Ladies and Gentlemen,
I have got some hardware I have to get rid of by the end of February, and it's
free to any of you guys if you are willing to come and pick it up in Cleveland,
Ohio, USA.
Last November I received a load of equipment from one company here in
Cleveland. It was a complicated network of CPUs and peripherals of all makes
and models put together by Xerox and intended to be used as a dedicated
document processing system. The CPUs included one VAX, three unidentifiable
towers, and a bunch of PCs. I'm using the VAX and all disk and tape drives
myself for my own purposes, and I'm selling the PCs, but still I've got those
three unidentifiable towers and three very funky monitors that were attached to
them. There is also a very funky laser printer attached to one of them. Given
that the VAX and all disk and tape drives have been taken out of the equation,
it's unlikely that the rest of the stuff can still be used for that dedicated
document processing whatever thing, but the towers have some apparently generic
controller boards in them (VME or something like that) and other parts that can
be raided for. Who knows, maybe even the CPUs are standard (probably some 68K),
in which case someone who knows more about this than I do (NULL) may be able to
actually use these machines for something.
The only identification on this equipment are the Xerox model numbers. One of
the towers was called NS8090 File Server. It had an external SCSI hard disk and
an Exabyte tape drive, but I've reused these for my own purposes. The other two
towers were called 6085 workstations, and they were diskless from the beginning
(as far as I can tell they don't have any mass storage controllers). All three
have monitors with very funny connectors. Aside from the Xerox model numbers
which tell me absolutely nothing, there are no hints whatsoever as to what the
CPU architecture is and all that. All towers have AUI Ethernet ports.
The laser printer is called NS8000 Laser CP, and it was attached to the tower
that was called the NS8090 File Server. The connectors are 25-pin like the
serial and parallel ones, but they have slide locks like on AUI. These slide
locks and the fact that the printer was apparently never intended to be
connected to anything except an "NS8090 File Server" suggest that the printer's
interface is not parallel or serial, but something very funny.
It has been suggested to me that I take the boxes apart, ID as many boards as
possible, and try to sell/donate them to whoever finds them useful (and the
cabinets and such would probably have to be scrapped). However, the thing is,
I don't really have time for all this, and it's naive to think that any of this
stuff has any significant cash value.
Right now I'm in the process of moving to another (cheaper) apartment in
another part of Cleveland, and really don't feel like hauling that junk around
with me. I have got these three CPU towers, three monitors, and one laser
printer, all absolutely unidentifiable, that I have to get rid of. Given what a
great job I've done at identifying and describing this stuff, it would be naive
for me to expect to sell it. Therefore, I'm giving it away for free to anyone
who is willing to come and pick it up. I have to vacate this apartment by the
end of February, and if no one picks this stuff up, I will have no choice but
to throw it in the big dumpster, which would be a great pity if this stuff is
actually useful for something.
Once again, I'm in Cleveland, Ohio, USA.
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
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>From Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> Wed Feb 3 00:52:35 1999
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From: Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-Id: <199902021452.JAA29320(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Subject: Re: Old UNIX file system formats
To: erin(a)coffee.corliss.net (Erin W. Corliss)
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:52:35 -0500 (EST)
Cc: norman(a)nose.cita.utoronto.ca, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990201095832.20104A-100000(a)coffee.corliss.net> from "Erin W. Corliss" at Feb 1, 99 10:01:14 am
Organization: University of Waterloo, Math Faculty Computing Facility (Alumni)
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I shouldn't have posted without doing the proper research. I took a
gander at PUPS/Tools/Filesys/traverse.c.gz which I'm quite sure is one
of the tools I wrote when I was finally able to figure out the contents
of that V6 tape I had (also with no docs - it was such irony to look
at the setup document on the tape *after* figuring the format out that
clearly describes the block layout 8-). I notice traverse.c.gz does
indeed use the LARG flag, not HUGE. Since few care, I'll not bother
extracting enough of Venix 1.x to see whether that is where I met the
HUGE flag or it is just my faulty memory... -- Ken
| From owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Mon Feb 1 13:06:04 1999
|
| Hmm... I wrote a disk image editor in Visual Basic without knowing the
| specs for the filesystem -- I set it up so that if the 9th pointer is zero
| and the filesize is greater than one block, then it assumed the block
| pointed to by the 8th pointer was a list of blocks in the file.
Alan F R Bain <A.F.R.Bain(a)dpmms.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> I think this is being grossly unfair and irrelevant; the information
> provided was that NetBSD was a viable alternative which is correct.
> All my modern machines run NetBSD and the only non supported hardware
> is a 9 track magtape drive on a sun -- I don't consider that
> unreasonable as it's rather an unusal model.
How is this relevant to NetBSD/vax? Remember, architectures other than VAX do
not exist as far as I am concerned, so when I say "NetBSD", I always always
always mean NetBSD/vax.
> I don't think PUPS
> is the place for OS favouritism arguments, so please desist.
It is necessary, however, to protect the innocent novice users from falling
into the claws of that predator.
> To add a constructive comment, there's been a lot written about the
> history and tree of development of early unix up to the SYSV
> and BSD split occured, but I'm pretty unsure about the rest.
> It seems that BSD2 and BSD4 developed pretty much in parallel,
> the former targetting the PDP and the latter the VAX; Warren's
> graphing data provide an interesting view of what happened,
> but I'm unsure how closely related the two developments were
> (especially in time of releases, introduction of new features
> etc.). I'd be grateful if someone more knowledgable could fill
> in some of the details.
First of all, this is absolutely irrelevant to the question of binary
compatibility between 4.2BSD, 4.3BSD, and Ultrix.
Second, the development didn't "split" into PDP-11 and VAX. Instead, the
MAINSTREAM UNIX system _CONVERTED_ from PDP-11 to VAX, and did so at AT&T,
before the torch was turned over to UC Berkeley. 2BSD was not mainstream UNIX.
In fact, it was not UNIX at all, since it didn't contain a kernel, only a
patchkit of userland enhancements. Now if you are talking about 2.xBSD, as
opposed to the real 2BSD, it is a different story altogether, and it isn't
really Berkeley Software DIstribution, since it wasn't developed at Berkeley.
2.xBSD is an unauthorized, unapproved, and unblessed side branch, and as far as
I'm concerned, it doesn't exist.
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
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>From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Sat Jan 30 10:50:36 1999
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Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 19:50:36 -0500
From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: low-end vaxen and unix
Message-ID: <19990129195036.A7942(a)rek.tjls.com>
Reply-To: tls(a)rek.tjls.com
References: <199901292249.RAA04815(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
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On Fri, Jan 29, 1999 at 05:49:42PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote:
>
> > As far as I recall, stock 4.3 won't run on the MV2000, 3100, etc.
>
> 4.3BSD-Quasijarus will eventually. For now if you want to run the
> 4.3BSD-Quasijarus userland, run it atop of an Ultrix kernel. Will work
> beautifully.
>
> > There is a reasonable alternative. NetBSD runs on the 2000, many 3100 models,
> > and even the 4000/60, which Ultrix never ran on.
>
> A warning for naive list readers. NetBSD's definition of "runs on" means that
> you have to part with all of your mass storage devices and use the bare CPU as
> diskless peering-at toy.
That's nonsense. As I stated in the message to which you were purportedly
responding, NetBSD supports both SCSI and MFM (RD-series) disks on the machines
in question. It also supports MSCP disks on most systems to which they
can be attached, and TMSCP tapes; and, for the truly masochistic, last
time I tried the RL02 on my '750 worked, too.
Let me ask you once again: why do you become so combative when others simply
express technical opinions (or, in this case, state facts) with which you
happen to disagree?
Are you actively _trying_ to disrupt this list just so that nobody can
mention the word "NetBSD" on it for fear of being flamed?
Thor
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Sat Jan 30 11:09:36 1999
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901300109.MAA09808(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: low-end vaxen and unix
In-Reply-To: <19990129195036.A7942(a)rek.tjls.com> from Thor Lancelot Simon at "Jan 29, 1999 7:50:36 pm"
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 12:09:36 +1100 (EST)
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In article by Thor Lancelot Simon:
> On Fri, Jan 29, 1999 at 05:49:42PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
>> A warning for naive list readers. NetBSD's definition of "runs on" means that
>>you have to part with all of your mass storage devices and use the bare CPU as
> > diskless peering-at toy.
>
> That's nonsense. As I stated in the message to which you were purportedly
> responding, NetBSD supports both SCSI and MFM (RD-series) disks on the machines
> in question. It also supports MSCP disks on most systems to which they
> can be attached, and TMSCP tapes; and, for the truly masochistic, last
> time I tried the RL02 on my '750 worked, too.
>
> Let me ask you once again: why do you become so combative when others simply
> express technical opinions (or, in this case, state facts) with which you
> happen to disagree?
>
> Are you actively _trying_ to disrupt this list just so that nobody can
> mention the word "NetBSD" on it for fear of being flamed?
> Thor
Ok, this is a warning to anybody who posts a reply to the thread above
in the mailing list. If you say something which is religious, zealous
or inflammatory, then I will issue a warning to you in the list. 2nd
time I issue a warning, I will start to moderate your postings.
This whole issue is like Linux vs. FreeBSD. The BEST answer to the
question: which is the best? is to get the user to try both out, and
they can make their own choice. As several people have explained, the
choice is a combination of technical issues AND aesthetics. And we all
have different tastes.
So respect each others tastes, and don't hassle them.
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Sat Jan 30 11:21:28 1999
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: Is 2.xBSD `approved'?
In-Reply-To: <199901300010.TAA04883(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Jan 29, 1999 7:10:23 pm"
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 12:21:28 +1100 (EST)
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In article by Michael Sokolov:
> Now if you are talking about 2.xBSD, as
> opposed to the real 2BSD, it is a different story altogether, and it isn't
> really Berkeley Software DIstribution, since it wasn't developed at Berkeley.
>2.xBSD is an unauthorized, unapproved, and unblessed side branch, and as far as
> I'm concerned, it doesn't exist.
I hate to say this, but 2.xBSD, where x was 8, 9 and 10, was developed with
the involvement of several people at the CSRG, e.g Keith Bostic, Mike Karels,
Kirk McKusick. I'm sure Steven Schultz could give me some more names.
Although 2.xBSD is definitely not the branch which got the most attention,
I wouldn't say it was unauthorised, unapproved nor unblessed.
Actually, given that the CSRG is now disbanded, it is fair to say that
both 2.11BSD and 4.3-Quasijarus are in exactly the same boat: side branches
of the main BSD development, maintained by individuals who were not members
of the original CSRG.
Now, let us return to the more important issue of helping each other out,
rather than getting at each other. All UNIXes are worthy topics, and do
not deserve ridicule.
Warren
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Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
> On a KA410 (VAXstation 2000 etc.) the MFM controller and the NCR 5380
> both do DMA to a shared 16Kb private memory buffer. You then have to
> pull your data out into the regular VAXen memory. I believe the Lance
> chip (ethernet) is the only DMA to main memory capable device.
Correct.
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
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>From Alan F R Bain <A.F.R.Bain(a)dpmms.cam.ac.uk> Sat Jan 30 08:54:33 1999
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To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: low-end vaxen and unix
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:49:42 EST."
<199901292249.RAA04815(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 22:54:33 +0000
From: Alan F R Bain <A.F.R.Bain(a)dpmms.cam.ac.uk>
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Michael Sokolov wrote:
>A warning for naive list readers. NetBSD's definition of "runs on" means that
>you have to part with all of your mass storage devices and use the bare CPU as
>diskless peering-at toy.
I think this is being grossly unfair and irrelevant; the information
provided was that NetBSD was a viable alternative which is correct.
All my modern machines run NetBSD and the only non supported hardware
is a 9 track magtape drive on a sun -- I don't consider that
unreasonable as it's rather an unusal model. I don't think PUPS
is the place for OS favouritism arguments, so please desist.
>4.3BSD-Quasijarus will eventually run on nearly every VAX ever made? When will
>this happen? To speed it up, subscribe to the Quasijarus mailing list and join
>our team.
>
>> It will also run 4.3BSD
>> binaries -- in fact, in my experience, more of them than Ultrix will. I
>> ran Ultrix on a 3100 on my desk when I worked at DEC, and it was even odds
>> whether binaries I'd built on 4.3 would work correctly -- remember, Ultrix
>> branched from 4.2, not 4.3.
>
>The fact that Ultrix originally started from 4.2 is absolutely irrelevant,
>since when 4.3BSD came out, Ultrix fully caught up with it. As the principal
>maintainer and software architect of 4.3BSD-*, I know this better than anyone
>else, and I state authoritatively that the complete 4.3BSD-Quasijarus userland
I don't feel that there is any need to be silly and pretentious
here; techinical arguments may be of interest, but `I'm right and
I know I am' arguments are just childish.
To add a constructive comment, there's been a lot written about the
history and tree of development of early unix up to the SYSV
and BSD split occured, but I'm pretty unsure about the rest.
It seems that BSD2 and BSD4 developed pretty much in parallel,
the former targetting the PDP and the latter the VAX; Warren's
graphing data provide an interesting view of what happened,
but I'm unsure how closely related the two developments were
(especially in time of releases, introduction of new features
etc.). I'd be grateful if someone more knowledgable could fill
in some of the details.
Alan Bain
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Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote:
> As far as I recall, stock 4.3 won't run on the MV2000, 3100, etc.
4.3BSD-Quasijarus will eventually. For now if you want to run the
4.3BSD-Quasijarus userland, run it atop of an Ultrix kernel. Will work
beautifully.
> There is a reasonable alternative. NetBSD runs on the 2000, many 3100 models,
> and even the 4000/60, which Ultrix never ran on.
A warning for naive list readers. NetBSD's definition of "runs on" means that
you have to part with all of your mass storage devices and use the bare CPU as
diskless peering-at toy.
4.3BSD-Quasijarus will eventually run on nearly every VAX ever made? When will
this happen? To speed it up, subscribe to the Quasijarus mailing list and join
our team.
> It will also run 4.3BSD
> binaries -- in fact, in my experience, more of them than Ultrix will. I
> ran Ultrix on a 3100 on my desk when I worked at DEC, and it was even odds
> whether binaries I'd built on 4.3 would work correctly -- remember, Ultrix
> branched from 4.2, not 4.3.
The fact that Ultrix originally started from 4.2 is absolutely irrelevant,
since when 4.3BSD came out, Ultrix fully caught up with it. As the principal
maintainer and software architect of 4.3BSD-*, I know this better than anyone
else, and I state authoritatively that the complete 4.3BSD-Quasijarus userland
will run perfectly atop of an Ultrix kernel.
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
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Pat Barron <pat(a)transarc.com> wrote:
> As I recall, you can attach an external SCSI hard disk to a MicroVAX 2000,
> and Ultrix will be able to use it, but you can't boot from it. The
> Centronics expansion port really is a SCSI port, even though it was never
> billed as such (and the TZK50 tape drive really is a SCSI drive, and you
> can use it on other systems that have SCSI - not sure why you'd want to,
> though....).
Correct, except that since Ultrix is binary-only chainware, you would have to
disassemble and patch some of its kernel .o files in order to force is to
recognize SCSI disks. It uses the CPU code (a byte-sized number constructed
from the SID and SID extension longwords) to index into a table of pointers to
routines for different CPUs, and the routines that get called when the CPU is
KA410 (VS/MV 2000) don't bother to probe for SCSI disks. This means that any
SCSI disks you may have attached will be silently ignored, even though the
drivers are present and they would work if they weren't artificially blocked.
> 4.3BSD (and its variants) for the VAX has no SCSI support at all, so
> you're out of luck if you want to use SCSI disks on a MicroVAX under 4.3.
Adding BabyVAX support (with MFM, SCSI, LANCE, and everything) to
4.3BSD-Quasijarus is in my plans. For more information, subscribe to the
Quasijarus mailing list.
If you want to have something running now, you can either run Ultrix and learn
to live in binary-only chains, or you can construct a system consisting of the
Ultrix kernel and the 4.3BSD-Quasijarus userland. There is enough syscall
compatibility between 4.3BSD and Ultrix to make this possible.
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
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>From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Sat Jan 30 07:41:53 1999
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Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:41:53 -0500
From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: low-end vaxen and unix
Message-ID: <19990129164152.A3563(a)rek.tjls.com>
Reply-To: tls(a)rek.tjls.com
References: <Pine.SGI.3.95.990129133718.11015C-100000(a)world.std.com> <Pine.GSO.3.96.990129150954.25336E-100000(a)smithfield.transarc.com>
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In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.990129150954.25336E-100000(a)smithfield.transarc.com>; from Pat Barron on Fri, Jan 29, 1999 at 03:28:52PM -0500
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On Fri, Jan 29, 1999 at 03:28:52PM -0500, Pat Barron wrote:
> As I recall, you can attach an external SCSI hard disk to a MicroVAX 2000,
> and Ultrix will be able to use it, but you can't boot from it. The
> Centronics expansion port really is a SCSI port, even though it was never
> billed as such (and the TZK50 tape drive really is a SCSI drive, and you
> can use it on other systems that have SCSI - not sure why you'd want to,
> though....).
>
> 4.3BSD (and its variants) for the VAX has no SCSI support at all, so
> you're out of luck if you want to use SCSI disks on a MicroVAX under 4.3.
As far as I recall, stock 4.3 won't run on the MV2000, 3100, etc. The
people who made it do so used the relevant source bits from Ultrix, I
think, so even with a 32V source license you're out of luck.
There is a reasonable alternative. NetBSD runs on the 2000, many 3100 models,
and even the 4000/60, which Ultrix never ran on. It will also run 4.3BSD
binaries -- in fact, in my experience, more of them than Ultrix will. I
ran Ultrix on a 3100 on my desk when I worked at DEC, and it was even odds
whether binaries I'd built on 4.3 would work correctly -- remember, Ultrix
branched from 4.2, not 4.3.
SCSI on the 2000 is supposed to work pretty well, SCSI on some 3100 models
less so; the LANCE ethernet on the older boxes and the SGEC on the 4000/60
work; a few models support graphical console on a QDSS or equivalent. For
the boxes where you're stuck with small RD series disks, shared libraries
may help a bit.
Hope this helps.
THor
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>From Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> Sat Jan 30 08:07:36 1999
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From: Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-Id: <199901292207.RAA18899(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Subject: Re: low-end vaxen and unix
To: allisonp(a)world.std.com
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:07:36 -0500 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.3.95.990129160049.19225A-100000(a)world.std.com> from "allisonp(a)world.std.com" at Jan 29, 99 04:06:28 pm
Organization: University of Waterloo, Math Faculty Computing Facility (Alumni)
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On a KA410 (VAXstation 2000 etc.) the MFM controller and the NCR 5380
both do DMA to a shared 16Kb private memory buffer. You then have to
pull your data out into the regular VAXen memory. I believe the Lance
chip (ethernet) is the only DMA to main memory capable device.
-- Ken
> [...] There are however issues in that the hard disk
> interface and the SCSI chip use the same DMA channel and it would cause
> some performance degrdation. [...]
>
> Allison
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How well can the so-called "desktop vaxen" run 4.3 BSD? I'm thinking
about systems like the MicroVAX 2000, etc. I'd like to set up a
system to run some sort of 4.3 system (maybe Michael Sokolov's
Quasijarus distribution) and I've noticed the occasional desktop vax
show up in places like eBay. Is it possible to avoid the hernia and
use one of these "2nd floor apartment-friendly" computers?
--Mirian
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Mirian Crzig Lennox <mirian(a)xensei.com> wrote:
> How well can the so-called "desktop vaxen" run 4.3 BSD? I'm thinking
> about systems like the MicroVAX 2000, etc. I'd like to set up a
> system to run some sort of 4.3 system (maybe Michael Sokolov's
> Quasijarus distribution) and I've noticed the occasional desktop vax
> show up in places like eBay. Is it possible to avoid the hernia and
> use one of these "2nd floor apartment-friendly" computers?
Subscribe to the Quasijarus mailing list using standard Majordomo commands and
post your question there. I'll answer it.
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
On Tue, 26 Jan 1999 "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> wrote:
> I maintain the opposite. VMS _was_ (past tense) the driver of
> VAXEN but that was due to Ken "UNIX is Snake Oil" Olsen. Since DEC
I got a whole different perspective on that Snake Oil thing after reading
"A Quarter Century of UNIX" by Peter Salus. According to Armando Stettner
(DEC Ultrix Architect) Ken Olsen meant, "Much the way people were peddling
snake oil a century ago, now every vendor is hyping Unix as a cure for
everything". He was only making a analogy but the statement was "taken
out of context". Anyway, the book has been enjoyable.
Mike
P.S. Where is Armando now? Is he still doing Unix stuff?
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Thu Jan 28 09:10:55 1999
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Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:40:55 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com>
Cc: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: UNIX robustness
Message-ID: <19990128094055.E66239(a)freebie.lemis.com>
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On Wednesday, 27 January 1999 at 5:23:58 -0800, David C. Jenner wrote:
> "Steven M. Schultz" wrote:
>>
>> At least it's a different thread... ;-)
>>
>> I had a UNIX system in my house that ran (and was working hard
>> the whole time) for over 2 years before pity was taken on it
>> and a beefier replacement system installed. The original system
>> was a 386/33 serving as a rather busy secondary nameserver and was
>> never touched/rebooted/powercycled for 2+ years. As time went on the
>> load increased and it became apparent the system was overloaded (and
>> paging excessively) so a P5/90 with more memory was installed. A
>> couple months after that the disk died ;-)
>
> I had (still have) a PDP-11/23+ that ran (still runs) 2.9BSD (with an
> honest-to-goodness AT&T binary license) that was my UUCP link to the
> net from 1989-1993. At one stretch, it ran almost two years before a
> power failure finally got it.
>
> It was unusual to go that long without a power failure, so the limiting
> factor was clearly the power and not the hardware or software. The
> system has a watchdog timer, so when there was a problem the system would
> usually automatically reboot, unless there was a serious hardware problem.
> Reboots were fairly rare and usually a power problem, so it would be hard
> for me to pinpoint the cause of non-power-instigated reboots.
I think you'd have to consider a reboot to be a failure. Steveen
could say better than I, but I'd expect 2.9BSD to have told you why it
died. 2.11BSD certainly does.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu Jan 28 10:07:22 1999
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Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:07:22 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199901280007.QAA27431(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: djenner(a)halcyon.com, grog(a)lemis.com
Subject: Re: UNIX robustness
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
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Hi -
> From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
>
> I think you'd have to consider a reboot to be a failure. Steveen
> could say better than I, but I'd expect 2.9BSD to have told you why it
> died. 2.11BSD certainly does.
Well, it tries its darndest to do so. If the system gets its
knickers sufficiently twisted I've seen it hang part way thru
printing the panic message. 'course then there are the self
inflicted crashes where an errant driver scribbles all over memory,
in which case you may not get a meaningful indication of what
went wrong ;)
Steven
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>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Thu Jan 28 10:11:56 1999
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Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 01:11:56 +0100 (MET)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: emanuel stiebler <emu(a)ecubics.com>
cc: Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.eu.org>,
PDP11 UNIX Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
In-Reply-To: <19990127174150.AAA5105@p2350>
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> > What's that? When I want to edit text I want an editor, not an vi-itor
> > or an emacsitor, those aren't even words! ED is the standard editor. :)
>
> SURE !!!
> I think most people simply forget, that emacs doesn't work so well on a
> line printer console ;-))
I have only one things to say to you guys; TECO.
(And besides, EMACS is just a bunch of macros for TECO, GNU-EMACS don't
even count... ;-)
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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>From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Thu Jan 28 13:24:31 1999
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To: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: UNIX robustness
References: <199901270512.VAA15671(a)moe.2bsd.com> <36AF136E.8FB4C233(a)halcyon.com> <19990128094055.E66239(a)freebie.lemis.com>
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Yes, and it was almost 2 years between reboots. Otherwise, they were
rather rare, and I can't remember why. I have all the console logs
around somewhere under a pile, and if/when I uncover them, I'll look
through them to see what happened. Maybe I'll suddenly report it here
in 6 months--after my next reboot, err, cleanup.
Dave
Greg Lehey wrote:
>
>
> I think you'd have to consider a reboot to be a failure. Steveen
> could say better than I, but I'd expect 2.9BSD to have told you why it
> died. 2.11BSD certainly does.
>
> Greg
> --
> See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
> finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
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>From Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com> Thu Jan 28 18:05:26 1999
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Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:05:26 -0800 (PDT)
From: Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
In-Reply-To: <199901260840.DAA03265(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
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On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote:
> > I frankly consider this to be silly, somewhat presumptious, and, for myself,
> > at least, a waste of time. But if it's something _you_ want to do, I
> > encourage you to do it, I suppose.
>
> You may believe whatever you want, but I will only remark that several very
> prominent VAX hardware gurus (some of them on this list) support my work very
> eagerly. Whatever you or the NetBSD gang may believe,
"Death to the murderous NetBSD grandparents and the atrocities they've
commited against the true Unix." -- Bee S. D'argic
-brian.
---
Brian "JARAI" Chase | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ | VAXZilla LIVES!!!
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>From "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net> Fri Jan 29 03:54:42 1999
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From: "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
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On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, Brian D Chase wrote:
> "Death to the murderous NetBSD grandparents and the atrocities they've
> commited against the true Unix." -- Bee S. D'argic
Yeah, what kind of sadistic, malicious bastards would create a *free*
version of unix, then port it to nearly every platform imaginable!!?!?
What could have been going through their twisted minds?
----------------------------------------------------------
"...and an eternity, my friend, is a long f*cking time..."
Allison Parent is probably correct that Ultrix doesn't have as impressive
a record of robustness as VMS, but there are certainly application-specific
cases where the system did pretty well. The collection of MicroVAX II parts
I have at home mostly used to be the University of Toronto's backbone IP
routers, which ran an early Ultrix (I forget if it was 2.0 or 3.0).
Evidently most of these systems just ran and ran and ran, stopping only
for hardware failures. (Probably mostly broken RD53 disks--most of the
disks that came in the parts collection were broken in one way or another.)
Although I am not a first-hand witness, the claim is that some of these
systems had uptimes as long as five years when they were finally decommissioned
in 1990 or 1991.
Anyone else got any my-UNIX-ran-longer-than-yours stories?
Norman Wilson
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jan 27 14:38:23 1999
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Subject: Re: UNIX robustness
In-Reply-To: <199901270434.PAA00279(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> from "norman(a)nose.cita.utoronto.ca" at "Jan 26, 1999 11:32:49 pm"
To: norman(a)nose.cita.utoronto.ca
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:38:23 +1100 (EST)
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In article by norman(a)nose.cita.utoronto.ca:
> Anyone else got any my-UNIX-ran-longer-than-yours stories?
> Norman Wilson
Only <200 days here for a PC-based system, usually brought down by
power failure.
Warren
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Jan 27 15:12:57 1999
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Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:12:57 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199901270512.VAA15671(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: UNIX robustness
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At least it's a different thread... ;-)
I had a UNIX system in my house that ran (and was working hard
the whole time) for over 2 years before pity was taken on it
and a beefier replacement system installed. The original system
was a 386/33 serving as a rather busy secondary nameserver and was
never touched/rebooted/powercycled for 2+ years. As time went on the
load increased and it became apparent the system was overloaded (and
paging excessively) so a P5/90 with more memory was installed. A
couple months after that the disk died ;-)
Steven
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Jan 27 15:15:08 1999
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Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:15:08 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
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Subject: Addendum to Unix robustness
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Hi -
I've personally seen/run a PDP-11/44 under 2.11BSD for 1 year without
reboooting. Then the power went out and spoiled the streak. Started
over and was a couple months into the new uptime and the RA81 died.
Sigh.
Steven
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>From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Wed Jan 27 23:23:58 1999
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Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 05:23:58 -0800
From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com>
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To: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: UNIX robustness
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I had (still have) a PDP-11/23+ that ran (still runs) 2.9BSD (with an
honest-to-goodness AT&T binary license) that was my UUCP link to the
net from 1989-1993. At one stretch, it ran almost two years before a
power failure finally got it.
It was unusual to go that long without a power failure, so the limiting
factor was clearly the power and not the hardware or software. The
system has a watchdog timer, so when there was a problem the system would
usually automatically reboot, unless there was a serious hardware problem.
Reboots were fairly rare and usually a power problem, so it would be hard
for me to pinpoint the cause of non-power-instigated reboots.
Dave
"Steven M. Schultz" wrote:
>
> At least it's a different thread... ;-)
>
> I had a UNIX system in my house that ran (and was working hard
> the whole time) for over 2 years before pity was taken on it
> and a beefier replacement system installed. The original system
> was a 386/33 serving as a rather busy secondary nameserver and was
> never touched/rebooted/powercycled for 2+ years. As time went on the
> load increased and it became apparent the system was overloaded (and
> paging excessively) so a P5/90 with more memory was installed. A
> couple months after that the disk died ;-)
>
> Steven
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>From Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> Thu Jan 28 01:14:30 1999
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From: Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-Id: <199901271514.KAA30920(a)math.uwaterloo.ca>
Subject: Re: UNIX V6 Enhancements/Games
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:14:30 -0500 (EST)
Cc: agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199901262238.JAA05749(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> from "Warren Toomey" at Jan 27, 99 09:38:32 am
Organization: University of Waterloo, Math Faculty Computing Facility (Alumni)
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Alas I don't know the precise details, but I do remember that the
University of Waterloo had an explicit license (seperate from the UNIX
one) just for the *real* troff code. When I say "real" I mean the code
that drove a real typesetting device etc. (in PDP-11 assembler I think).
We had a highly modified copy in use for more than a decade I think,
driving successive generations of new typeset quality engines. I can
check with the fellow that really knows all this history and details
if someone is interested. -- Ken
| In article by alejandro gonzalez:
| >
| > Reading the Unix Summary, I have noticed that some packages are
| > distributed as Enhancements: Like TROFF, or some of the Games, and not in
| > the orginial distribution
| >
| > The Unix System the comes with the tapes does not come with Man, Troff,
| > etc.. Is any of this extra stuff in the Pups Archive? If so, Where?
| >
| > Alex
|
| All we have are the tapes as donated to us by Dennis Ritchie and Ken
| Wellsch. I don't know if a copy of the enhancements still exist. However,
| they may have been part of PWB UNIX, which was around at the same time as
| Research UNIX. Have a look in the Distributions/usdl section for PWB UNIX.
|
| Warren
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>From Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.eu.org> Thu Jan 28 03:21:11 1999
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From: Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.eu.org>
To: PDP11 UNIX Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
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Thor Lancelot Simon < tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote:
>...or vi versus Emacs.
What's that? When I want to edit text I want an editor, not an vi-itor
or an emacsitor, those aren't even words! ED is the standard editor. :)
--
Jorgen Pehrson (HP 9000/380, VAX2000, DECstation 5000/200 (NetBSD 1.3))
jp(a)spektr.eu.org (PDP11/73, PDP11/83, PDP11/83 (2.11BSD)), Intergraph 200
spektr.eu.org/~jp/ MicroVAX 3100 (NetBSD 1.3), VAXstation 4000/90 (VAX/VMS)
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>From "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> Thu Jan 28 03:41:15 1999
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From: "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com>
To: "Jorgen Pehrson" <jp(a)spektr.eu.org>,
"PDP11 UNIX Preservation Society" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:41:15 -0700
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Hi Jorgen,
----------
> From: Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.eu.org>
> To: PDP11 UNIX Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
> Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
> Date: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 10:21 AM
> What's that? When I want to edit text I want an editor, not an vi-itor
> or an emacsitor, those aren't even words! ED is the standard editor. :)
SURE !!!
I think most people simply forget, that emacs doesn't work so well on a
line printer console ;-))
cheers,
emanuel
<Eventually I will support almost every VAX ever made, just like Ultrix. The
<is no reason why it can't be done. If Ultrix, a close 4.3BSD derivative, co
<do this, so can 4.3BSD-* itself.
Then it might almst be as common as VMS... not likely. Ultrix never drive
every VAX nor was it as robust as VMS. It will still not be a 24x7x365 OS
of any standing until proven so by use, not assertion.
Allison
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<What I was saying that if someone, no matter who, tries to use the governme
<oppression mechanism (formally known as intellectual property law) to obstr
The rom code for the KA650 is not public domain nor was it ever relased
with public domain trimmings to anyone. Calling it opression or anything
else is a transparent attempt to evade the law.
<supposed to cooperate, not fight. Using legal quirks to obstruct the work o
<non-profit software developer for ideological reasons would probably be
<universally agreed to be unethical.
When applied to "freely copyable code" no problem. Copyrighted firmware
is not that.
Allison
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<Let's look at things from the practical viewpoint, OK? One of my goals is t
<establish a repository containing the latest available microcode revision f
That is not the problem. You are putting up the ROM contents off the cpu
card and that is unreleased copyrighted code.
<Come on, removing the KA650 from the list of CPUs for which I make microcod
<updates available won't change anything. I will still have to carry a ragba
<DEC-copyrighted bits and pieces in order to make my OS project successful.
Then I expect you will get propper permissions or paperwork showing that
they were grandfatherd. In either case by not doing that your potentially
liable( and involing others) in a copyright infingment suit. Copyright is
a legal issue.
<UNIX will require a copy of VMB.EXE in order to boot from MSCP disks and TM
Not an issue and that is not the rom image.
<The thing of it is, all this hardware is orphaned. If you have a DEBNA and
<to upgrade it to DEBNI to run UNIX, or if you have KA650 V1.1 and want to
<upgrade it to V1.2 to run UNIX, if you call COMPAQ and ask them for a firmw
<upgrade they'll laugh at you. If DEC still existed and supported this stuff
<would be a different story, but with all this hardware orphaned, the poor V
<UNIX users have no one to turn to for microcode upgrades and troubleshootin
<support except the VAX UNIX maintainer, i.e., me.
Not true. While Compaq/DEC may or may not supply products it is still
their ownership. Further I'd bet that through field service spares parts
are still quite available.
Allison
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My two cents' worth on the latest fuss:
It seems premature to discuss splitting the list unless there is a concrete
proposal for how to split it, but I cannot think of a split that would solve
the present problem. The real trouble right now is one or two people who
cannot resist waving their antlers around in public. We could eliminate
them by declaring UNIX on anything but the PDP11 (and perhaps the PDP-7)
to be out of bounds, but unless we also refuse to talk about anything post-V7,
that is an artificial cutoff; there's a fair bit of shared code between
2.11BSD and 4BSD (wasn't that the point of 2.11 et al?). There's also a
genuine link between PDP11 and VAX hardware (nearly all the pre-VAXBI
peripheral devices for a start).
More important than any of the above, I'd like to ask everyone to try to
keep their remarks civil and reasonably to-the-point (difficult though both
of those often are in e-mail), and to take conversations that are marginal
to the main purpose of the list to direct e-mail rather than broadcasting
everything to everyone no matter how peripheral. (Which is not to say that
discussion of peripherals aren't relevant.) For example, I had a handful
of comments both philosophical and technical on Michael Sokolov's recent
postings; they didn't strike me as of general interest, so I mailed them
directly to him.
To close with a reference nearer to ancient UNIX, I think it was Dennis who
once suggested that netnews would have had a much higher signal-to-noise ratio
if there had been no `followup' command, so it was easier to send e-mail
directly to the original poster than to make a fool of one's self in public.
Norman Wilson
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jan 27 13:38:45 1999
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901270338.OAA01601(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Split of PUPS mail list??
In-Reply-To: <19990127035054.L496(a)krdl.org.sg> from "Joerg B. Micheel" at "Jan 27, 1999 3:50:54 am"
To: joerg(a)krdl.org.sg (Joerg B. Micheel)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:38:45 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
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In article by Joerg B. Micheel:
> > Please email me your suggestions, desires etc w.r.t this issue. I will
> > post a summary sometime next week, and we can then decide what to do.
>
> You don't mention a specific scheme to do the split.
No. I'll take suggestions, then summarise the suggestions and post them
next week.
Warren
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