Greg Lehey wondered about the date in
> There's a binary of dc from either 1st or 2nd Edition in the PUPS Archive:
>
> -r---wxrw- 0/0 6846 Apr 14 06:50 1973 bin/dc
1973 is indeed post-Second-Edition. But it's not the right date; just as
the permission flags were different in the early years, so was the date
representation. Here are some gleanings from old manuals that tell the
story.
The relatively recent ls or tar or whatnot that printed the line above
presumably interpreted the date as if it were in modern form: seconds since
1 Jan 1970 UTC. So the raw number stored in the i-node was probably about
105000000 decimal (30 Apr 1973 in my time zone), or about 1200 days into the
epoch.
But the file system described in the First Edition manual takes the date
as a count of clock ticks since 1 Jan 1971. The clock ticked at 60Hz,
so the date is really about 1200/60 = 20 days into the epoch; if this file
came from a 1e file system, it was written on 21 Jan 1971.
The trouble with keeping a 60Hz clock in a 32-bit number is that it takes just
a couple of years before it overflows. A band-aid had been stuck on by the time
the Third Edition manual was printed: the base date changed to 1 Jan 1972. So
maybe bin/dc was written on 21 Jan 1972 instead. There's no way to tell just
from the bits in the i-node.
The modern time format (1-second resolution) appeared in the Fourth Edition manual.
It is probably not a coincidence that the file system format changed a lot at
the same time; groups appeared, permission modes changed to approximately their
current form, directory entries changed, and so on.
The 60Hz scheme seems to have come from the PDP-7, on which it made more sense;
the -7 has 36-bit words, so a 60Hz counter lasts 16 times longer. I bet the
base date changed at least once between the original PDP-7 system and the PDP-11
as well, since 1 Jan 1971 seems too recent for the PDP-7 system.
See http://www.cita.utoronto.ca/~norman/old-unix/old-fs.html for many more such
grotty details, collected in an insomniac night with a stack of old manuals some
months ago.
Norman Wilson
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Oct 28 10:02:25 1999
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: Re: dc and date numerology
In-Reply-To: <199910272349.JAA41914(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> from "norman(a)nose.cita.utoronto.ca" at "Oct 27, 1999 7:48:50 pm"
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In article by norman(a)nose.cita.utoronto.ca:
> Greg Lehey wondered about the date in
> > -r---wxrw- 0/0 6846 Apr 14 06:50 1973 bin/dc
>
> 1973 is indeed post-Second-Edition. But it's not the right date; just as
> the permission flags were different in the early years, so was the date
> representation. Here are some gleanings from old manuals that tell the
> story.
[ much omitted ]
Norman details the fact that early Unixes stored time in 60ths of a second,
i.e the normal clock tick, and as such, a 32-bit integer overflows in
around 2.5 years.
However, I think Norman is not exactly right when he said that the
tar archive was reinterpreting this 1/60 sec time in units of seconds.
Dennis Ritchie, with help from Keith Bostic and a DECtape drive, managed to
retrieve these files from an old DECtape. These old files were stored in
tap(1) archive format.
Dennis wrote a program to read in the tap(1) format archives and extract
their contents while trying to maintain the _correct_ permissions and
timestamps. Here is his email describing this:
The tapes were written in either the 'tap' or 'tp' format, which
are similar in that they have a directory of up to 192 entries at
the start with names and other information including the size and
tape address of the files. 'tp' was the later format, and was in
use by November 1973, the date of the 4th edition manual. With
`tap', the times associated with the files were recorded in pre-modern
units: sixtieths of a second, from an origin that changed. The
first three editions of the manual had BUGS sections noting that
32 bits can represent only about 2.5 years in this unit, and this
implied continuing crises as the time overflowed.
I believe that the change to use seconds for Unix time took place
along with the change to the C version of the operating system,
which occurred about the end of the summer of 1973, and also that
the change from `tap' to `tp' took place at the same time. (This
is consistent with the dates of the 3rd and 4th edition manuals).
Thus the dates recorded with the `tp' tapes probably correspond
reliably to the modification dates of the files at the time of
saving them (of course, this gives only a upper bound on their
creation, since they might have been copied or trivially touched
just before saving them).
Recovering the proper dates for the `tap' tapes is less reliable,
because there was at least one change of epoch (from 1971 to 1972)
during the period they could possibly have been produced. I believe
that the 1972 epoch is most likely the correct one for the tapes here.
In other words, Dennis had to guess the epoch when recovering these files.
He got it right with the `nsys' kernel files, because there is enough other
data lying around documenting the kernel rewrite from assembly to C, and
the inclusion of pipes into the kernel.
However, with the s2.tar archive, I think Dennis got the epoch one year out,
i.e everything should be dated a year earlier. The most obvious is that
there are so many 0405 magic a.out files in the archive, and apparently
this a.out format disappeared in the 2nd Edition.
Cheers all,
Warren
In article by Eric Fischer:
> Brian D. Chase writes,
>
> > Just a quick question. Was the `dc' command introduced with one of the
> > BSD releases or did it exist in an earlier version of Unix like the 6th or
> > 7th Edition?
>
> It appears in the First Edition manual, and according to A Quarter
> Century of Unix, it's even older than that.
> eric
There's a binary of dc from either 1st or 2nd Edition in the PUPS Archive:
-r---wxrw- 0/0 6846 Apr 14 06:50 1973 bin/dc
Warren
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>From Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com> Tue Oct 26 10:23:42 1999
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 17:23:42 -0700
From: Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com>
To: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: When did the `dc' command first appear?
In-Reply-To: <199910260007.KAA16993(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
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On Tue, 26 Oct 1999, Warren Toomey wrote:
> There's a binary of dc from either 1st or 2nd Edition in the PUPS Archive:
>
> -r---wxrw- 0/0 6846 Apr 14 06:50 1973 bin/dc
Hmmm... did the permissions on files have the same meaning back in 1973 as
they do now? Group and "other" writeable system binaries? Tsk tsk tsk.
Well I suppose just because someone has written the Unix operating system,
it doesn't necessarily mean that they're a very good Unix sysadmin.
-brian.
--- Brian Chase | bdc(a)world.std.com | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ -----
"Captain, we're experiencing a high rate of packet collisions!" -- K.
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue Oct 26 10:27:09 1999
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: Re: When did the `dc' command first appear?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.04.9910251718360.7714-100000(a)world.std.com> from Brian D Chase at "Oct 25, 1999 5:23:42 pm"
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:27:09 +1000 (EST)
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In article by Brian D Chase:
> On Tue, 26 Oct 1999, Warren Toomey wrote:
>
> > There's a binary of dc from either 1st or 2nd Edition in the PUPS Archive:
> >
> > -r---wxrw- 0/0 6846 Apr 14 06:50 1973 bin/dc
>
> Hmmm... did the permissions on files have the same meaning back in 1973 as
> they do now? Group and "other" writeable system binaries? Tsk tsk tsk.
>
> Well I suppose just because someone has written the Unix operating system,
> it doesn't necessarily mean that they're a very good Unix sysadmin.
No, the perms have got stuffed up in conversion from 1st Ed permissions
to the tar archive. 1st Edition had no groups, and only had perms
01 write for other
02 read for other
04 write for owner [ all octal values ]
10 read for owner
20 executable
40 set-UID
Warren
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>From Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> Tue Oct 26 10:33:59 1999
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Subject: Re: When did the `dc' command first appear?
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On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Brian D Chase wrote:
> > -r---wxrw- 0/0 6846 Apr 14 06:50 1973 bin/dc
>
> Hmmm... did the permissions on files have the same meaning back in 1973 as
> they do now? Group and "other" writeable system binaries? Tsk tsk tsk.
I don't believe the concept of group permissions existed then...
> Well I suppose just because someone has written the Unix operating system,
> it doesn't necessarily mean that they're a very good Unix sysadmin.
On the other hand, people actually trusted each other, because you
all worked with each other, and it was common for someone to write a
utility and stick it on the system. Hint: /usr wasn't called that for
no reason...
--
Dave Horsfall VK2KFU dave(a)geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: +61 2 9978-7422
Geac Computers P/L (FGH Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia
Just a quick question. Was the `dc' command introduced with one of the
BSD releases or did it exist in an earlier version of Unix like the 6th or
7th Edition?
-brian.
--- Brian Chase | bdc(a)world.std.com | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ -----
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Brian Chase asked:
> Just a quick question. Was the `dc' command introduced with one of the
> BSD releases or did it exist in an earlier version of Unix like the 6th or
> 7th Edition?
I see it on the System III and Version 7 systems. I don't see it in V6 distro
however.
Cheers,
-skots
--
Scott G. Akmentins-Taylor InterNet: staylor(a)mrynet.com
MRY Systems staylor(a)mrynet.lv
(Skots Gregorijs Akmentins-Teilors -- just call me "Skots")
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>From Eric Fischer <enf(a)pobox.com> Tue Oct 26 04:15:15 1999
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Subject: Re: When did the `dc' command first appear?
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Brian D. Chase writes,
> Just a quick question. Was the `dc' command introduced with one of the
> BSD releases or did it exist in an earlier version of Unix like the 6th or
> 7th Edition?
It appears in the First Edition manual, and according to A Quarter
Century of Unix, it's even older than that. "There was also a version
of dc, desk calculator, a very very early program. That was actually
the first program that ran on the PDP-11. It ran standalone before
there was an operating system." (p. 35)
eric
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>From Mark Green <mark(a)cs.ualberta.ca> Tue Oct 26 04:23:48 1999
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Subject: Re: When did the `dc' command first appear?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.04.9910250931400.1849-100000(a)world.std.com> from Brian D Chase at "Oct 25, 1999 09:34:40 am"
From: Mark Green <mark(a)cs.ualberta.ca>
To: bdc(a)world.std.com (Brian D Chase)
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> Just a quick question. Was the `dc' command introduced with one of the
> BSD releases or did it exist in an earlier version of Unix like the 6th or
> 7th Edition?
>
I think it was in 6th, but thats straining my memory a bit.
--
Dr. Mark Green mark(a)cs.ualberta.ca
Professor (780) 492-4584
Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS)
Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX)
University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada
Hi everyone,
I have already posted this program to the PUPS list back in December 1998, but
people are asking for it again, and also there are people on the Quasijarus
list and not on the PUPS list who want it, so I'm posting it again, to both
lists.
This program can read a tape on a UNIX box without the user having to know
anything about its format. This program automatically determines how many files
are on the tape, what is the record size for each, and whether there are any
oddities such as partial records. It saves each tape file into a separate disk
file and produces a log of everything found on the tape.
It's a simple C program and should compile and run on virtually any UNIX or
UNIX-like system. The original version was written by one guy I met on another
list once and then it was significantly enhanced by me. I include it below as
a uuencoded 'compress -s'ed tarball.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Computer Operation Facility
Special Agent 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY #4
International Free Computing Task Force DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693
ARPA INET: msokolov(a)meson.jpsystems.com
Enclosure: uuencoded cptape.tar.Z:
begin 644 cptape.tar.Z
M'Z'M6&U3&S<0YJOU*P0T@PW&^,`X&3NF0PBT:0G,0-(WFNF(.YU]PUER[^08
MFO#?N[LZ^>X<4MK.0#[D=B;#25KMR[-O<EZ+*QE&L5QZ0/+:[6ZGPY<X]]K=
M'?S+.[NTMN1UGG+>[>[L[NZTM[UM8FOO+O'V0QKE:)H:D7"^-+Y..]U_X'L[
M#,X?PYY'IE6V"A%XG64!#W7"_8D1$\E6&3M]\<.@-A:1:FEV?G:0??N,'1P=
M[W]W/JAMGC)FV7NU;^K`WF`UW^?VDV]J)XM]:3<K^@R='>Z_?'WXL#KNJ7^O
MLUVH_YVGR-;>[5;U_QAD"Y0G4@0I%YP6D>):29Z.M&GR22S\2`VY%/[('E.C
MB)31P)_*B4B$D3R(TBM&)T(%/-;#(5XR(^2$IC(6)M**BTL]-:#,UTG`T^@O
MF;9<`R%%,OTW>NR)$F,9\#7\;BFUUN2SD4PD4XI'*2DV,[T91,/(P.T_IU*9
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MI/U,@U1!%#(&PX(/I=$3P^N-/I/71B;0&$<0X'78%,EPOHFLL!6IH(E_P;)^
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M_Z!_N=E@4'J'&H3/&I?!5A"2093!`4`21JF&)T,@C'#M!AYH".BGZ4*XSI+(
M&*DP"1RHRW>@ZG`X=X^VW/]F<<;W^).XA$@SPQ5H'D?R!S7-B]#RA)F6;+O)
M5X[^NY8[5*69W+R`0#1U192\$#W,&@@6O9E*-]K=;G=NN>4:\$WO_@1#29]-
ML$)^>#;,ME2S?*GE-0T[A9K]-),6BG%Y4.@')2.S4/XL$@61[#E@5P'3<F9C
M4>(F"46XRR(a)[4_,H+.#N$JH0YMJG,?X?=MRO^C;+YV)CFR=&EO.PC5^V4>3M
MK23(N5"ZMUR(1,.6QUV!)^&EXO7ZME#S-N=*F=KU+9Z%]H1E-7UR^N;L</_@
M^\.7N&O=HGF&+\LZC%P??J(DP_=VD.&ZS^Q$7L=M-\3PT"_,$C?DZ`?&@)^\
M/3ZVIZ416#JQ]V@8W'4QGZ,<RR+?!&?#>&AC0)NS$8JNUWW8L\^)@A^0$'%O
MI=%`D`]/CPC>%'Y-P.^3ND\K7T#36XO7>A:]LB/N&6*##0&Z@F]X=HAI;'KN
M[K?NKC6-&G61/XN&M1:CG[GP\6/VID'CT&1HL1[9Y+(:WFG`"SY,4S'$VK</
MOPOXV9?9^8Y`@B3&O*!>L-WH+^HK^)0-;!>.$'M%\1QTS5;<*%[.*ZT\AHL"
M,V?S/E1R=R&^&)(+Z_2[?H$C(*S!E")_DY_^<?;R].3X5^B6F5<TI;,;U"[1
MGWFY@`1Z\=G_%G&EDV/CE;')RN@S3[D^E,>7?N]75%%%%554444555111155
/5%%%7Q_]#6D82E<`*```
`
end
Howdy -
> From: pups(a)mrynet.com (PUPS mailing list)
>
> Has anyone successfully booted either the System III
> (...Distributions/usdl/SysIII/) or Ultrix (...Distritutions/dec/Ultrix*)
> tape images? I don't have a real PDP-11 any more, however both the
I don't know what the problem with Ultrix is but I suspect
your trouble with System-III is similar to what I wasted a couple
days on eons ago
Spent a fruitless couple days trying to get Sys-III going on a 11/44
only to have it dawn on me that Sys-III didn't have *any* UMR support
except for the DH-11 - thus an 11/70 with MASSBUS devices was the
only thing Sys-III would run on.
As far as I know no effort was put into Sys-III to deal with 22
bit machines that didn't have a MASSBUS (a la 11/70). PERHAPS
that is what is biting you? Feels likely. I know that no effort
was put in to supporting UMRs on 22bit systems such as the 11/44.
The Supnik and Begemot emulators offer up a ~kdj-11 (11/53, 73, ...)
and not an 11/70 so it could be that Sys-III is trying to do
something 11/70'ish that KDJ-11 based systems don't offer.
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
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From: "P.BASKER" <basker(a)protocol.ece.iisc.ernet.in>
Reply-To: "P.BASKER" <basker(a)protocol.ece.iisc.ernet.in>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: assembler?
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Hi ,
Im interested in a PDP-11 assembler that has the MACRO-11 syntax,
I got a book, "Introduction to Computer Systems using the PDP-11 and
Pascal" by McEwans, Thought it would be nice to have the assembler to
check out. I hope the assembler is a load and go assembler cum simulator.
I want to check out some PDP-11 assembly on my linux machine.
Does anyone remember a program called "apout" I think that might work for
cross development (learning).
Bye
P.Basker
Research Program Asst, ECE Dept IISc, India
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Oct 21 14:02:36 1999
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Subject: Re: assembler?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.991021082828.24006A-100000(a)protocol.ece.iisc.ernet.in> from "P.BASKER" at "Oct 21, 1999 8:34: 9 am"
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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 14:02:36 +1000 (EST)
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In article by P.BASKER:
> Hi ,
> Im interested in a PDP-11 assembler that has the MACRO-11 syntax,
> I got a book, "Introduction to Computer Systems using the PDP-11 and
> Pascal" by McEwans, Thought it would be nice to have the assembler to
> check out. I hope the assembler is a load and go assembler cum simulator.
> I want to check out some PDP-11 assembly on my linux machine.
>
> Does anyone remember a program called "apout" I think that might work for
> cross development (learning).
> Bye
Yes, I wrote Apout. It runs user-mode programs from V5, V6, V7, 2.9BSD
and 2.11BSD. So if you could find an assembler for any of these systems
which met your requirements, and produced .o files which could be linked
using the normal Unix linker, you'd be okay.
However, I haven't heard of a Unix assembler with MACRO-11 syntax, and
Apout only runs PDP-11 Unix binaries. So you probably would be better
off with a full emulator running a DEC OS with MACRO-11.
Cheers,
Warren
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>From Wilko Bulte <wilko(a)yedi.iaf.nl> Thu Oct 21 09:01:53 1999
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From: Wilko Bulte <wilko(a)yedi.iaf.nl>
Message-Id: <199910202301.BAA44603(a)yedi.iaf.nl>
Subject: Re: booting archived Sys III and Ultrix 3.x images
In-Reply-To: <199910202028.NAA49448(a)mrynet.com> from PUPS mailing list at "Oct 20, 1999 1:28:36 pm"
To: pups(a)mrynet.com (PUPS mailing list)
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 01:01:53 +0200 (CEST)
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As PUPS mailing list wrote ...
> Has anyone successfully booted either the System III
> (...Distributions/usdl/SysIII/) or Ultrix (...Distritutions/dec/Ultrix*)
> tape images? I don't have a real PDP-11 any more, however both the
Ultrix-11 V3.1 works just fine on my 11/83. I supplied the binary images
to PUPS from the .5" reel tape ;-) So, yes it can work. My PDP is now
running 2.11BSD btw.
--
| / o / / _ Arnhem, The Netherlands - Powered by FreeBSD -
|/|/ / / /( (_) Bulte WWW : http://www.tcja.nlhttp://www.freebsd.org
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Has anyone successfully booted either the System III
(...Distributions/usdl/SysIII/) or Ultrix (...Distritutions/dec/Ultrix*)
tape images? I don't have a real PDP-11 any more, however both the
Begemot P11 and the Supnik emulators produce the following on a
generated boot disk:
#0=unixhptm
ka6 = 1535
aps = 141774
pc = 1476 ps = 30010
trap type 0
ka6 = 1535
aps = 141666
pc = 113444 ps = 30300
trap type 0
panic: trap
The Ultrix images both fail to actually boot from tape, as they
quit after reading the first boot block. Thus I am unable get as
far as being able to generate a disk image for booting.
I'm somewhat confident that my tape image booting and system generation
procedures used with the Supnik emulator are working properly, since I
successfully generate disk systems from both the V7 (Bostic) and
the 2.11BSD boot-tape images.
Any info and interest of others gleefully appreciated :)
-skots
--
Scott G. Akmentins-Taylor InterNet: staylor(a)mrynet.com
MRY Systems staylor(a)mrynet.lv
(Skots Gregorijs Akmentins-Teilors -- just call me "Skots")
----- Labak miris neka sarkans -----
Hi.
I have been given a Bull DSP 2/300 system. The machine is running B.O.S.
version 02.00.12. The machine boots and runs fine and I cal login as Root
and look around the system. The problem I have is that the B.O.S. operating
system is a Unix look-a-like and I can find no-one who actually knows
anything about the box. Most Unix commands work but, being a VMS guy, I
can't run the machine like my Digital MV 2's. Does anyone know anything
about these machines? I particularly want to have a bash at programming the
machine. It appears to have C (This should be fun. I've not touched C for 12
years!)
Also. I have two Digital Micro Vax 2's. The both have hardware problems in
that a) One machine has a system disk which will not come up to speed and b)
The other has a corrupted system_primitives.exe on VMS 5.5-H and so I can't
run either of them! Anyone know where I can get spares which are pre-loaded?
I really would appreciate any help or advice/ pointers etc that anyone can
give.
Rusel Broadway
Senior Systems Analyst
DDI: 01206-25-5745
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>From James Lothian <simul8(a)simul8.demon.co.uk> Sun Oct 17 05:11:03 1999
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Subject: Re: vtserver
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Hmm.. I seem to remember, from when I was thinking about rolling my own
11 OS a few years ago, that the /34 differs from most of the other
mid-range
11s in automatically restoring the CPU registers on a page fault. I
think I
picked this up from the differences table in the /04, /34 & /60 CPU
handbook.
(This was unfortunately no use at all to me, as I've got a /40 not a
/34.)
Of course, that was a while ago and I might be wrong.
James
"Steven M. Schultz" wrote:
>
> Hi -
>
> > From: Wilko Bulte <wilko(a)yedi.iaf.nl>
>
> I will be doing some more research on this when I get home from
> work tonight.
>
> > I once had Ultrix-11 3.1 running on a dual RK05 11/34. What I'd call a
> > very minimal system ;-) But it ran
>
> That is because DEC put the extra effort into supporting non-split I/D
> machines. The "stock" V7 really wanted a 11/70. In fact there was a
> chapter in the back of one of the manuals/books detailing what it took
> to get V7 running on an 11/40 (it was a non-trivial project).
>
> Several things conspire against V7 and later on 11/34 (or 35, 40, 60,
> etc). The two most notable ones are the limited address space,
> everything (drivers, data structures, general kernel code) must fit
> in 56kb instead of 120kb - (8kb reserved for the I/O page) and lack
> of instruction restart on MMU faults.
>
> I'll take a look at the V7 layout later but my memory is that it
> wanted an 11/70.
>
> Steven Schultz
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sun Oct 17 05:42:14 1999
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Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 12:42:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199910161942.MAA18843(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: vtserver
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Hi -
> From: James Lothian <simul8(a)simul8.demon.co.uk>
>
> Hmm.. I seem to remember, from when I was thinking about rolling my own
> 11 OS a few years ago, that the /34 differs from most of the other
> mid-range 11s in automatically restoring the CPU registers on a page fault. I
It's not the automatically restoring that is the problem - the /34, /40
(/60, etc) lack the MMU registers that record by how much the cpu
registers have incremented/decremented at the time an instruction has
faulted. SSR1 and SSR2 located at 0177574 and 0177576 respectively.
From the module which handles the instruction restart (mch_backup.s):
* 11/40 version of backup, for use with no SSR1 and SSR2. Actually SSR1
* usually exists for all processors except the '34 and '40 but always
* reads as zero on those without separate I&D ...
What is a dozen lines of code if those registers exist turns into
over 300 lines and even then there is no guarantee (fortunately the
C compiler does not generate the sequences that can not be handled)
it will work.
What's instruction restart used for? The most common case is growing
the stack. The stack for a process starts out small and then kernel
will automatically extend it downwards IF an instruction faults when
accessing the stack area:
sub $N,sp
mov $xxx, XX(sp)
mov -(r4), X(sp)
for dealing with local variables in a function. The other case
is when calling a function:
mov (r0)+, -(sp)
mov $xxx, -(sp)
jsr pc, function
If the reference to (sp) is made and the instruction faults the
kernel will determine if the current stack needs to be extended. It
will then restart the faulted instruction - but to do that it needs
to know what other registers ('r0', 'r4', etc...) might have been
already changed so that it can back out those changes before
restarting the instruction.
In the case of the 11/44, 70, 73, etc there are MMU registers that
will record the fact that "R0" or "r4" or whatever was changed by
2 or not. On the /34 and /40 that capability does not exist and
the kernel can not _always_ guarantee things will work. MOST of the
time it will but...
Interestingly enough there is a difference between the KDJ-11 (11/73)
family and the other 11s which have the SSR1, and 2. From the
bug report and fix for 2.11BSD (update #150):
"The problem is that the KDJ-11 processes the double word store
of the 'movfi' differently than the 11/44 or 11/70. On other
systems (such as the 11/44) the first word is stored successfully
at 0175000 then the program faults when trying to access 0174776
but SP is left at 0174776 with SSR1 (memory management
status register 1) indicating that 'sp' was decremented by 4. The
kernel adjusts 'sp', grows the stack and restarts the instruction.
The 'movfi' then completes successfully.
On a KDJ-11 cpu the story is different. The fault is generated
as expected BUT 'SP' IS STILL 0175002! The kernel sees that 'sp'
is still within the "valid stack region" and DOES NOT grow the
stack at all. SSR1 indicates that no registers were modified
so the kernel does no adjustment of 'sp'. The instruction is
NOT restarted and a SIGSEGV signal is sent to the program.
The problem appears to be only when doing FP instructions, fixed point
operations do not experience any difficulty. The instruction
"cmp -(sp),-(sp)" for example is handled correctly."
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sun Oct 17 06:07:04 1999
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Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 13:07:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199910162007.NAA19063(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: vtserver
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> From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
> > To: Kirk Davis <kbd(a)ndx.net>
> > Do you know of anyone that has used it on a /34? I've punched in the
> > bootstrap and ran it. It loads the boot file from my Linux system.
> > It appears to call it but it halts somewhere in the 70000-70040 region.
> > Nothing comes up on the console. Looks like the memory is over written
> > with the same values over and over again in this area. Any thoughts?
> >
> Sorry for the delay Kirk. It could be that the V7 bootstrap expects
> split I/D, or a different I/O mapping then what's provided on the /34.
>
> I'll punt this to the PUPS mailing list. I have a suspicion that
> you won't be able to install V7, but you should be able to install V6
> or 2.9BSD instead.
I _think_ I know what the problem is...
While the /34 (and /40, etc) can run a stripped down V7 (the necessary
mch.s code exists for example) the kernels that come with the
distribution are split I&D kernels. /hptmunix, etc are all split I/D
executables. Thus you'll be able to toggle in the bootstrap and
get /boot loaded but then fault when loading and/or trying to execute
the kernel.
As I recall the usual way to get Unix on to a /23, 34,etc was to
have a 11/70 around to do the build on, then stage/create the media
(usually an RL02 or similar) on the 70 and sneakernet the pack over
to the /34.
At least that is how it was done when we shoehorned V7 into an 11/23.
Of course we "cheated" in that we had a fellow around who made the
necessary changes to the assembler/compiler/linker to handle kernel
overlays (preceeded the use of them in 2BSD by several years). Thus
we could run a larger kernel than a pure/stock V7. It was an
"interesting" experience running V7 on an 11/23 (maxed out with 248kb
of memory which was fairly expensive at the time). There was just
enough memory left after the kernel was loaded for a couple user
processes. Thus as the '#' prompt you would run "ls" the shell ('sh')
would get swapped out, the 'ls' would run, and then 'sh' would get
swapped back in. Uh, slowed things down just a _little_ bit :-)
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
Mahlzeit
As Warren Toomey wrote ...
> Sorry for the delay Kirk. It could be that the V7 bootstrap expects
> split I/D, or a different I/O mapping then what's provided on the /34.
I'm 99% sure, that it's V7 which I have running (for lower values
of running, because one drive is dead and the power supply needs
to be replaced) on my 11/34A with 128kB RAM and two RL01. I think
I wanted to install V6, but installed V7 because of the RL01 drivers.
I stripped V7 down, so I only needed one RL01 disk pack (I have only
two.) and transfered the disk image via kermit.
I want to install 2.11BSD on my M70 with 512kB RAM (No, more RAM is
to expensive here. 1MB for over US$500.) and a 120MB ST506-type disk,
but had not much time. I want to avoid the way of the disk image,
because I have no BSD installed for the emulator and don't know,
if the transfere of slices of the disk image would be successfull.
(The RT-11 only handles 32MB "disks".) I think the best way would
be to boot from a 2.11BSD floppy and install it via serial port.
(TU-58 emu? Are there 1.2MB 2.11BSD floppies somewhere?)
Mahlzeit
endergone Zwiebeltuete
--
insanity inside
On Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 11:19:54PM -0700, Kirk Davis wrote:
> Warren,
> I've been checking out your vtserver program. It's a great idea
> and it's been fun to play with. I'm bringing up a /34 and have been
> collecting parts for it for a few months. I've got it set up with
> a few RL02's on it. Few questions for you:
>
> Do you know of anyone that has used it on a /34? I've punched in the
> bootstrap and ran it. It loads the boot file from my Linux system.
> It appears to call it but it halts somewhere in the 70000-70040 region.
> Nothing comes up on the console. Looks like the memory is over written
> with the same values over and over again in this area. Any thoughts?
>
> I'm working on getting a source license from SCO. I'd love to hack on
> this with you if you are interested in any help.
Sorry for the delay Kirk. It could be that the V7 bootstrap expects
split I/D, or a different I/O mapping then what's provided on the /34.
I'll punt this to the PUPS mailing list. I have a suspicion that
you won't be able to install V7, but you should be able to install V6
or 2.9BSD instead.
Cheers,
Warren
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>From Wilko Bulte <wilko(a)yedi.iaf.nl> Fri Oct 15 03:18:02 1999
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From: Wilko Bulte <wilko(a)yedi.iaf.nl>
Message-Id: <199910141718.TAA01066(a)yedi.iaf.nl>
Subject: Re: vtserver
In-Reply-To: <19991014163422.C41213(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> from Warren Toomey at "Oct 14, 1999 4:34:43 pm"
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 19:18:02 +0200 (CEST)
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As Warren Toomey wrote ...
> On Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 11:19:54PM -0700, Kirk Davis wrote:
> > Warren,
> > I've been checking out your vtserver program. It's a great idea
> > and it's been fun to play with. I'm bringing up a /34 and have been
> > collecting parts for it for a few months. I've got it set up with
> > a few RL02's on it. Few questions for you:
> >
> > Do you know of anyone that has used it on a /34? I've punched in the
> > bootstrap and ran it. It loads the boot file from my Linux system.
> > It appears to call it but it halts somewhere in the 70000-70040 region.
> > Nothing comes up on the console. Looks like the memory is over written
> > with the same values over and over again in this area. Any thoughts?
> >
> > I'm working on getting a source license from SCO. I'd love to hack on
> > this with you if you are interested in any help.
>
> Sorry for the delay Kirk. It could be that the V7 bootstrap expects
> split I/D, or a different I/O mapping then what's provided on the /34.
>
> I'll punt this to the PUPS mailing list. I have a suspicion that
> you won't be able to install V7, but you should be able to install V6
> or 2.9BSD instead.
I once had Ultrix-11 3.1 running on a dual RK05 11/34. What I'd call a
very minimal system ;-) But it ran
--
| / o / / _ Arnhem, The Netherlands - Powered by FreeBSD -
|/|/ / / /( (_) Bulte WWW : http://www.tcja.nlhttp://www.freebsd.org
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Fri Oct 15 04:36:52 1999
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From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199910141836.LAA21478(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: wilko(a)yedi.iaf.nl, wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: vtserver
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Hi -
> From: Wilko Bulte <wilko(a)yedi.iaf.nl>
I will be doing some more research on this when I get home from
work tonight.
> I once had Ultrix-11 3.1 running on a dual RK05 11/34. What I'd call a
> very minimal system ;-) But it ran
That is because DEC put the extra effort into supporting non-split I/D
machines. The "stock" V7 really wanted a 11/70. In fact there was a
chapter in the back of one of the manuals/books detailing what it took
to get V7 running on an 11/40 (it was a non-trivial project).
Several things conspire against V7 and later on 11/34 (or 35, 40, 60,
etc). The two most notable ones are the limited address space,
everything (drivers, data structures, general kernel code) must fit
in 56kb instead of 120kb - (8kb reserved for the I/O page) and lack
of instruction restart on MMU faults.
I'll take a look at the V7 layout later but my memory is that it
wanted an 11/70.
Steven Schultz
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Anybody here interested in helping?
Greg
----- Forwarded message from Christoph Kaeder <hh-city(a)lehmanns.de> -----
> Delivered-To: freebsd-questions(a)freebsd.org
> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 23:53:14 +0200
> Organization: Lehmanns Fachbuchhandlung
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> To: freebsd-questions(a)FreeBSD.ORG
> X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG
> Precedence: bulk
>
> Hello.
>
> Lehmanns bookshop in Germany will print a
> Unix-Freeware-Calender in
> postersize and give it away for FREE (300.000 copies /
> 4-colour!).
>
> The calendar will include over 100 remarkable days from the
> History of Unix, Linux, Freeware and Open Source.
>
>
> Would you like to add some remarkable days from the
> FreeBSD-History?
> Release days or ...
>
>
> - calendar-home : http://www.lob.de/cal0
> - first look (JPEG): http://www.lob.de/cal1
> - a detail: http://www.lob.de/cal2
> - form to add your remarkable days: http://www.lob.de/cal3
>
> And if you agree we would like to add the FreeBSD Daemon on
> this calender beside the Tux, TeX-Lion, Perl Camel ...
>
> Do you agree to this and can you send us a Tif or JPEG?
> We need it with 300 dpi, 4-colour, about 1 inch high
>
> Thanks.
> Christoph Kaeder
> --
>
> * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * -
> * -- *
> Lehmanns Fachbuchhandlung fuer Informatik, Medizin und
> Psychologie
> Hermannstrasse 17 / 20095 Hamburg / GERMANY /
> hh-city(a)lehmanns.de
> Telefon 040 - 336384 / Fax 040-338955 / International:
> 0049-40-...
> http://www.lob.de / Mo - Fr von 10 bis 20 und Sa von 10 bis
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> * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * -
> * -- *
>
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo(a)FreeBSD.org
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--
See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
In article by Lord Isildur:
> hello,
>
> alas, i do not have an account on the PUPS Archive machine! could i have one?
> i remember vaguely something about requiring pgp-signed stuff, and i dont
> use pgp, and so dont have a public (or any other) key.
> isildur
Here's the policy for the machine holding the PUPS Archive:
+ People with UNIX source licenses can get at least
guest FTP access to the archive, with S/Key as the
authentication mechanism.
+ People with UNIX source licenses, and who either
help to maintain the archive, or who have volunteered
to distribute the archive, can get ssh access to the
machine.
+ No telnet access, no e-mail. The box runs with `reserved
tolerance' from the real system administrators :-)
If you fall into either category, and can prove you have a UNIX source
license, then I can either PGP e-mail you, or fax you, the access
details.
Apologies for the cross-post to the 3 old UNIX-related mailing lists!
Cheers,
Warren
In article by johna(a)babel.apana.org.au:
> Hi Warren,
> I have a set (11 I think) of manuals for the Unisys 5000 / 7000 series
> which I'd be happy to give away. Not sure if they are of historical
> interest (too recent, perhaps) or if it was a landmark computer ...
>
> Anyway, I'd be happy to donate them to the Unix archive if you're
> interested. I'm in Sydney, North Ryde, and would be happy to pass them
> on next time we're in earshot of each other
Actually, your email made me think: if I collect _erverything_ offered to
me, then I _will_ run out of room soon.
So, how about the idea of a register? You tell me what you have & your
contact details. I put up a web page with the stuff, your name, and
your contact details if you are happy.
Then, if people want access to them, they can contact you. Or, if you'd
rather not have your contact details on the web, they can contact me.
And if you feel like getting rid of them, you can email me and I'll see
if anybody wants them.
Let me know what you think. P.S I'm cc'ing this to the PUPS mail list
for similar comments.
Cheers,
Warren
Hi -
> From: Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au>
> Do you recall the PC-board hack on the sep-ID machines that changed
No, I do not recall seeing a PCB hack (hacking on an 11/70 was
frowned upon ;))
> the MFPI instruction to do something that was expressly prohibited?
But I do know what that 'something' was. In "user" or "supervisor"
mode MPFI functioned as "MFPD" - a user program could not read its own
I(nstruction) space. Only for "kernel" mode did MFPI access the
I space.
> Something about allowing a user program to access something else, for
> some obscure hack or other...
It was aimed at providing "execute only" code - a program could "run"
but not "read" its code space.
This caused problems though if trap handlers (floating point exception
handling comes to mind) needed to retrieve the faulted instruction
for inspection/analysis. Thus in 2BSD there is a system call that
programs can issue to request the KERNEL to do the 'mfpi' for them
and return the value.
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
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>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Thu Sep 9 19:58:19 1999
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From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Diff between 11/20 and 11/45?
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On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, Warren Toomey wrote:
> These executables were written for a PDP-11/20. Are there any significant
> USER-MODE differences between the 11/20 and later PDP-11 models? I'm
> thinking missing instructions, different addressing mode behaviour etc.
As far as I can remember, there aren't any huge differences. However, some
stuff behave differently in the 11/20. On the other hand, some stuff
behave differently in just about every implementation...
Condition flags on some instructions specifically. And the 11/20 might
have had some limitations on using the PC which differed as well.
I have a processor handbook for the "modern" -11s, which has a chart with
all differences between different models. I started writing it down, to
place in the PDP-11 FAQ, but haven't come that far yet...
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Are, I was afraid of that. The KE11-A wasn't a real CPU option, but
was a peripheral that sat on the Unibus
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>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Wed Sep 8 11:12:00 1999
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Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 21:12:00 -0400
From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
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Subject: Re: Diff between 11/20 and 11/45?
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>These executables were written for a PDP-11/20. Are there any significant
>USER-MODE differences between the 11/20 and later PDP-11 models? I'm
>thinking missing instructions, different addressing mode behaviour etc.
Well, first of all, there is no "User mode" on the 11/20 unless you have
a KT11 installed. Everything is kernel mode with no KT11. Maybe the
executables are trying to go out and directly bang on the console CSR's,
the switch register, or the interrupt vectors themselves?
11/20's also frequently had the EAE (Extended Arithmetic Element)
installed, to make up for the fact that there was no multiply, divide,
or multiple shift instructions in the native instruction set (and
wouldn't be until the EIS came along.) The EAE was a peripheral
living in I/O space (773000-777316); you wrote the operands to the EAE
locations and read the results later. You can put a EAE in a machine
with EIS, but generally you only did this if you had some binaries without
sources using the EAE (I know of several sites running 11/24's and 11/44's
with EAE's today)
There are many other differences, especially dealing with "funny" address
modes. Generally, folks like me who have to code so that something works
across all the -11's know better than to do these things, but back when
there was *only* the 11/20 some folks didn't know any better and used
them anyway.
First, we have instructions that use the same register as source
and destination, with an auto-increment one or the other:
1. OPR R,(R)+ on an 11/20 increments R before it's used as a source
operand. On an 11/45 the initial contents of R are used.
2. Same thing for OPR R,-(R).
3. JMP (R)+ or JSR reg,(R)+ increments R before putting it in the PC
on the 11/20; on the 11/45 R isn't incremented until after the old
value is put in the PC.
4. On an 11/20, JMP %R traps to 4; on an 11/45, JMP %R traps to 10
5. On an 11/20, SWAB does not change the V flag; on every other machine,
SWAB clears V. (In the 11/20 processor handbook, it *says* that SWAB
clears the V flag, but that's not the way the machine actually worked!)
6. On an 11/20, R0-R7 can be used by the program at addresses 177700-
177717; on any other machine, they can't be used that way and will
result in a non-existent memory (NXM) trap. This can be used for some
neat tricks where you run code out of the registers (which of course
is quite non-portable!)
There's lots more differences, having to do with T bits and interrupt
handling, but I don't know if you're getting that far... and these
aren't things that you have to worry about in user mode, anyway.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
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>From Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> Wed Sep 8 11:15:48 1999
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Subject: Re: Diff between 11/20 and 11/45?
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On Mon, 6 Sep 1999, Carl Lowenstein wrote:
> The first genuine user-mode difference that I remember coming across was
> an incompatibility in the result of
>
> MOV SP, -(SP)
Anything involving the same register as src and dst in this way was,
err, different...
And I have an annotation that the JSR does not behave as documented.
Unlike page 91, the sequence is not (tmp) <- (dst) / v(SP) <- reg /
reg <- PC / PC <- (tmp). The first ISP code is not present i.e. the
SP is decremented first, not saved, and the last is PC <- (dst).
> It isn't really clear to me why one would want to use this particular
> instruction, however it turned out to hang both BASIC and FOCAL at the
> time. A zero-length patch wasn't too hard to figure out.
Some sort of frame pointer linking, on an architecture that didn't
have separate frame pointers (like the Vax)?
--
Dave Horsfall VK2KFU dave(a)geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: +61 2 9978-7422
Geac Computers P/L (FGH Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia
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>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Wed Sep 8 10:48:50 1999
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Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 20:48:50 -0400
From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Message-Id: <990907204850.202001b4(a)trailing-edge.com>
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> MOV SP, -(SP)
>
>It isn't really clear to me why one would want to use this particular
>instruction
"MOV SP" is often-used shorthand for "MOV some-non-zero-value", since no
sane implementation would ever have a zero in the SP. So this would
put a non-zero value on top of the stack (perhaps as a flag, to be
cleared by CLR (SP) when ready) - at least on machines where this was legal!
On which machine does this fail, BTW? On a 11/15, 11/20, 11/23, 11/35
or 11/40 this ought to work, decrementing SP by two before putting it on
the stack, and on the 11/03, 11/04, 11/05, 11/10, 11/34, and 11/45
SP is decremented by two before being put on the stack, according to my
notes.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
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>From Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> Tue Sep 7 14:13:30 1999
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Subject: Re: Diff between 11/20 and 11/45?
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On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, Warren Toomey wrote:
> I've got a few working. cat works. ls and date run, but sort of give
> strange outputs.
What sort of strange output? My guess is that kernel-wise, date-handling
would have changed.
> These executables were written for a PDP-11/20. Are there any significant
> USER-MODE differences between the 11/20 and later PDP-11 models? I'm
> thinking missing instructions, different addressing mode behaviour etc.
Ummm... No floating point (all emulated), and I seem to recall that
it didn't even have multiply/divide; could this be the problem? The
/20 was certainly a subset of the "classic" 11. No memory management,
but users won't see that. Also had some quirks, long-forgotten.
My experience is based on the GT-40, which was basically a /20 with a
graphics processor attached to it (which had a mean Lunar Lander game!).
--
Dave Horsfall VK2KFU dave(a)geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: +61 2 9978-7422
Geac Computers P/L (FGH Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia
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>From Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> Wed Sep 8 14:43:16 1999
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Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 21:43:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu>
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To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: Diff between 11/20 and 11/45?
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> From owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Tue Sep 7 18:24 PDT 1999
> Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 17:49:36 -0700 (PDT)
> From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
> Subject: Re: Diff between 11/20 and 11/45?
>
> > From: Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu>
> >
> > MOV SP, -(SP)
>
> Similarily
>
> MOV R0,(R0)+
>
> won't work as expected on some 11s. I suspect that the even less
> likely case of "mov pc,-(pc)" won't work either :-)
>
> > It isn't really clear to me why one would want to use this particular
> > instruction, however it turned out to hang both BASIC and FOCAL at the
>
> Fairly common when setting up call frames, etc. You want the
> address of where the arguments start and since they're pushed on the
> stack 'sp' is the value you want.
>
> There's a comment in 2BSD (I think it came from V7) where mention is
> made that "we can't do sp,-(sp) because it won't work on the 11/40".
>
> > time. A zero-length patch wasn't too hard to figure out.
>
> Hmmm, interesting. The workaround I saw took an extra instruction.
Abbreviated due to fading memory over the years, but refreshed by some
of the current discussion. The patch was zero-length but involved more
than the one instruction. Something similar to:
MOV SP, -(SP) MOV SP, R0
MOV (sP), R0 MOV R0, -(SP)
The net result being that the initial value of SP is now both in R0 and
on the stack. Without doing both a SRC and DST operation on SP in the
same instruction, which is the thing that is incompatible across different
processor hardware.
carl
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>From Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> Wed Sep 8 15:03:09 1999
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Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 22:03:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu>
Message-Id: <199909080503.WAA08055(a)mpl.ucsd.edu>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: Diff between 11/20 and 11/45?
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> Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 14:13:30 +1000 (EST)
> From: Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au>
> To: PDP Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
> Subject: Re: Diff between 11/20 and 11/45?
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, Warren Toomey wrote:
>
> > I've got a few working. cat works. ls and date run, but sort of give
> > strange outputs.
>
> What sort of strange output? My guess is that kernel-wise, date-handling
> would have changed.
It occurs to me that really early Unix used a time word in PDP-11 ticks,
not seconds. So it ran out of time a lot sooner than 2038, like maybe
only a year after it started, at 60 ticks per second, 31.5 Megaseconds per
year. This information was gleaned from a Mt.Xinu calendar from a few
years ago.
carl
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Sep 8 15:40:58 1999
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Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 22:40:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199909080540.WAA17669(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: Diff between 11/20 and 11/45?
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Howdy -
> From: Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu>
> Abbreviated due to fading memory over the years, but refreshed by some
> of the current discussion. The patch was zero-length but involved more
It has been a long long ('quad'? ;)) time since I first encountered
the problem.
> than the one instruction. Something similar to:
>
> MOV SP, -(SP) MOV SP, R0
> MOV (SP), R0 MOV R0, -(SP)
Ah, thank you for bringing that memory back to the front of the brain!
If R0 is available for that then yes indeed that'll do the trick very
nicely.
> on the stack. Without doing both a SRC and DST operation on SP in the
> same instruction, which is the thing that is incompatible across different
> processor hardware.
The 11/45 (and 70) behave as "expected" as do the KDJ-11 systems
(11/73, etc) so unless a person had an 11/40 (or a /20) around it
would be fairly easy to get bit by the "feature".
When it comes time for MMU "features" I know of one difference between
the KDJ-11 and the other members that had an MMU (11/44, /70, etc). Was
fun tracking it down but not something I'd want to do again ;)
Steven
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>From Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> Wed Sep 8 16:29:16 1999
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Subject: Re: Diff between 11/20 and 11/45?
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On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> > MOV SP, -(SP) MOV SP, R0
> > MOV (SP), R0 MOV R0, -(SP)
>
> Ah, thank you for bringing that memory back to the front of the brain!
> If R0 is available for that then yes indeed that'll do the trick very
> nicely.
Yep, I remember that now! Often thought it was odd, but it worked
on all platforms.
The convention was that R0/1 were scratch (used to return results)
and R2/3/4 had to be saved (they were the caller's first three register
variables). R5 was used as a frame pointer (?) and R6/7 you know
better as SP/PC.
> The 11/45 (and 70) behave as "expected" as do the KDJ-11 systems
> (11/73, etc) so unless a person had an 11/40 (or a /20) around it
> would be fairly easy to get bit by the "feature".
We had 40s, and used to dream of owning a 70... I learned a lot about
porting Edition 6 to the /23, /60, etc.
> When it comes time for MMU "features" I know of one difference between
> the KDJ-11 and the other members that had an MMU (11/44, /70, etc). Was
> fun tracking it down but not something I'd want to do again ;)
Do you recall the PC-board hack on the sep-ID machines that changed
the MFPI instruction to do something that was expressly prohibited?
Something about allowing a user program to access something else, for
some obscure hack or other...
--
Dave Horsfall VK2KFU dave(a)geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: +61 2 9978-7422
Geac Computers P/L (FGH Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia
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>From Wim Fournier <hsmade(a)dds.nl> Wed Sep 8 20:41:32 1999
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Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 12:41:32 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Wim Fournier <hsmade(a)dds.nl>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Newbie question
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Hi,
I am the happy owner of a pdp-11/94. I've got it from our local telecom
provider (kpn). As I am not a specialist on these machines, I would like
to ask some questions:
- My pdp won't accept mains... when I supply power it doesn't do
anything.. I've heard it could be something with the power-supply not
being closed.. but I cannot find what it is.. it's fully closed.
- I've got sdi / tu80 and an other diskcontroller... What type of disks
can I use to boot from?? (disks = floppy / tape / harddrive)
- What about the 2 connectors at the back.. 1 has 3 pins and can be
connected to the mains regulator (or something (a box for switching the
mains)) an other one has got 2 pins and no info...
- Is there some info on hardware to connect at the diverse controllers
(modem / serial??)
GreetZz
Wim Fournier
hsmade(a)dds.nl
> From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
> Subject: Diff between 11/20 and 11/45?
> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society)
> Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 09:56:09 +1000 (EST)
>
> Dennis Ritchie has unearthed some really old Unix a.out
> executables from around 1st Edition - 2nd Edition period: see
> Distributions/research/1973_stuff in the PUPS Archive.
>
> These executables were written for a PDP-11/20. Are there any significant
> USER-MODE differences between the 11/20 and later PDP-11 models? I'm
> thinking missing instructions, different addressing mode behaviour etc.
There's a good table in the back of the more recent micro-11 manuals.
The first genuine user-mode difference that I remember coming across was
an incompatibility in the result of
MOV SP, -(SP)
It isn't really clear to me why one would want to use this particular
instruction, however it turned out to hang both BASIC and FOCAL at the
time. A zero-length patch wasn't too hard to figure out.
carl
carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego
{decvax|ucbvax} !ucsd!mpl!cdl cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu
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There is huge difference between the machines, but not backwards!
The 11/20 doesn't have :-
EIS instructions like div, mul, ash etc
FPU instructions like fmul ...
MMU no memory management of any sort, 56Kb memory, 8Kb I/O page
and hence no user modes, 16 bit addressing
So a program written for a 11/20 should work untouched on an 11/45 except for
some very minor (and ugly) instruction sequences involving using the same
register for both source and destination eg mov r2,-(r2), or jmp (r2)+.
The behaviour of the trace trap and T bit is also different.
There is a list of differences some some of the PDP/11 handbooks (perhaps the
latter architecture book).
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>From Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> Wed Sep 8 10:50:39 1999
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Subject: Re: KE11-A! (was Diff between 11/20 and 11/45?)
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On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, Warren Toomey wrote:
> I also see that unit 1 lives at 777300 - 777316, and the date a.out
> executable does this:
Yep; I read through my own 11/20 handbook, and I remembered that
EAE weirdness.
--
Dave Horsfall VK2KFU dave(a)geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: +61 2 9978-7422
Geac Computers P/L (FGH Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Sep 8 10:49:36 1999
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From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
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To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: Diff between 11/20 and 11/45?
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> From: Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu>
> The first genuine user-mode difference that I remember coming across was
> an incompatibility in the result of
>
> MOV SP, -(SP)
Similarily
MOV R0,(R0)+
won't work as expected on some 11s. I suspect that the even less
likely case of "mov pc,-(pc)" won't work either :-)
> It isn't really clear to me why one would want to use this particular
> instruction, however it turned out to hang both BASIC and FOCAL at the
Fairly common when setting up call frames, etc. You want the
address of where the arguments start and since they're pushed on the
stack 'sp' is the value you want.
There's a comment in 2BSD (I think it came from V7) where mention is
made that "we can't do sp,-(sp) because it won't work on the 11/40".
> time. A zero-length patch wasn't too hard to figure out.
Hmmm, interesting. The workaround I saw took an extra instruction.
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
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Hi all,
Dennis Ritchie has unearthed some really old Unix a.out
executables from around 1st Edition - 2nd Edition period: see
Distributions/research/1973_stuff in the PUPS Archive.
[ Actually, I suspect his dates are a year off: they should be 1972 ]
I've printed off the 1st Ed manuals from Dennis' web page, and I'm
attempting to get my a.out emulator, Apout, to run these old binaries.
I've got a few working. cat works. ls and date run, but sort of give
strange outputs.
These executables were written for a PDP-11/20. Are there any significant
USER-MODE differences between the 11/20 and later PDP-11 models? I'm
thinking missing instructions, different addressing mode behaviour etc.
There is no source code with these binaries, so I can't use that to help
debug the emulator. I do have the following processor handbooks:
PDP-11 /20 /15 /R20 1972
PDP-11 /45 1973
PDP-11 /04 /34 /45 /55 /60 1978-79
I just thought I'd ask for pointers here before I hit them for details.
Cheers,
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue Sep 7 11:10:25 1999
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199909070110.LAA12638(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: KE11-A! (was Diff between 11/20 and 11/45?)
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 11:10:25 +1000 (EST)
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Hi all,
I've just answered my own question. Reading thru the 11/20
processor handbook, I see the section on the extended arithmetic element,
KE11-A, which is ``an option to perform multiplication, division,
multiple position shifts and normalization significantly faster than
software routines''.
I also see that unit 1 lives at 777300 - 777316, and the date a.out
executable does this:
230: TRAP 15 time syscall
232: MOV #177770,@#177314
240: MOV #47432,@#177300
246: ADD #5,@#177304
254: MOV #7,@#177300
262: MOV @#177302,@#177304
270: MOV #5,@#177306
276: ADD #40622,@#177304
304: MOV @#177304,320
. . .
So it looks like I need to add KE11-A support to my emulator :-)
Cheers,
Warren
The sub-disks that one divide real disks into on UNIX systems are usually
called `partitions' these days. But that's not what they were originally
called on UNIX:
- V7 hp(4) and rp(4) refer to `sections' and `pseudo-disks'. 32V hp(4)
refers to `portions' and `pseudo-disks.' Later Research UNIX manuals,
once Section 4 was being edited again, settled on `sections.'
- System V Release 5.0 (the most recent system for which I have the device
driver part of the manual) also refers just to `sections.' (So far as I
can remember, this convergence was a coincidence; I think I'm the one who
decided to use `sections' on the Research side, and I think I did so just
because it was the more graceful of the historic cases, though my memory
is not clear.)
- 3BSD and 4.0BSD follow 32V; in 4.1BSD, the term `partition' appears as well.
The System V preference for `section' lives on in the device naming scheme
on System-V-derived, but the documentation even on those systems just says
`partition' these days.
It looks to me like `partition' came in from the Berkeley world. Does anyone
on the list remember where it came from? Was the new term introduced on
purpose, or did it just creep in in the way language usually changes?
Norman Wilson
Occasional pursuer of arcana
For any MSCP disk, the proper way to find out how many sectors there are
is to ask the disk. The `unit online' command (which has to be used anyway,
to tell the controller to connect to the disk) reports the unit size in
sectors; the `get unit status' command reports the number of sectors per
track, tracks per group, and groups per cylinder. (The term `group' here
is MSCP-speak which I've never really understood; the idea seems to be that
groups are collections of cylinders that can be switched between with relatively
little time penalty, whereas switching between even adjacent cylinders is more
expensive.)
Beware, however, that modern disks usually don't have a fixed number of
sectors per track; the tracks furthest from the spindle have more sectors,
so that more of the disk surface can be used without too much density
variation. Such `zoned' disks weren't common (maybe they didn't even exist)
when the MSCP spec was first written; maybe the RA92 is new enough that it
has zones.
I've never been convinced that worrying in great detail about track and
cylinder sizes gains much performance anyway, but that's another story.
Hi,
I wonder, does anyone know for sure what is the user capacity of an RA92 in
blocks? I'm now updating disktab(5) and the driver tables in 4.3BSD-Quasijarus
to cover new RA disks, and I can't figure out the user capacity of RA92 in
blocks. For all other RA disks with no exceptions (all RA8x, all RA7x, and
RA90) the user capacity in blocks is exactly equal to the number of cylinders
multiplied by the number of heads multiplied by the number of sectors, i.e., no
funny reserved sectors or tracks or anything like that. Looking in the
disktab(5) from Ultrix V4.2 I see a perfect match between the geometry and the
partition sizes for all disks except RA92. The RA92 entry indicates 3279
cylinders, 13 heads, and 69 sectors per track, but partition c is listed as
2940951 blocks instead of 3279*13*69=2941263 blocks. Does anyone know for sure
whether the user capacity of an RA92 is 2940951 blocks, 2941263 blocks, or
something else altogether?
--
Michael Sokolov
Special Agent
International Free Computing Task Force
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)meson.jpsystems.com
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Hi,
Having solved the RA72 problem and the KDA50 problem, I'm ready to attack the
next problem. :-( This time the TK50. I have a very odd problem with it. When I
first power up the VAX, everything works fine. I can read tapes, restore dumps,
etc. Then after some uptime (apparently something heat-related) it starts
behaving very oddly. Tapes with 512-byte records still read just fine, but
trying to read a tape with 10240-byte records (such as a UNIX filesystem dump
tape) results in the controller returning a hard error indication of "record
data truncated". This is so odd that I first thought it was a software problem,
but it isn't, because this happens identically under 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 and
Ultrix V4.0, whose TMSCP drivers are completely different. The fact that the
problem occurs only after some uptime suggests some kind of overheat, which
would normally be a very low-level physical problem, but the record size
dependence suggests something high-level, more likely the controller than the
drive. This MicroVAX is still under the dealer's warranty (I just bought it on
Monday), so if this is a bad drive or controller, I can replace it, which which
of the two is it? Has anyone ever seen this problem before? Does anyone know
whether it is the drive or the controller that's bad? TIA.
--
Michael Sokolov
Special Agent
International Free Computing Task Force
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)meson.jpsystems.com
P.S. The temperature in the machine room is 70F. Not the best for a machine
room, but the best you'd ever expect for an office, and I think the VAX has no
right to go on strike at 70F.
V7M was the DEC distribution of V7 (pre Ultrix days). Fred Canter did
most of the work, along with Jerry Brenner and Armando Stettner. It
supported non ID space machines, and some of the newer DEC hardware.
My manual lists it as working with :-
CPUS:- 11/23, 34, 44, 45/50/55, 60 and 70
Disks:- RL02, RK06, RK07, RM02/3, RP04/5
Tapes:- TU10, TE10, TU16, TE16, TS11
There was a strip down of V6 called Miniunix that would run on machines
without memory management, such at the 11/20, 05, 10 and 35/40 (without MMU
option). It required a full 56Kb machine, used the first 28Kb for the kernel
and swapped the last 28Kb for each process. Pipes worked by using a temporary
inode to store the data and swapping the processes. It was realllllllll slow.
The was also a similar version for 11/03's. I remember that there was an early
bug in that updates would always rewrite open inodes (last access time had
changed). You could physically wear out a floppy disk, since it was forever
rewriting the sector with the inode for the console terminal.
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>From Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> Thu Sep 2 16:06:50 1999
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Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 23:06:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu>
Message-Id: <199909020606.XAA06196(a)mpl.ucsd.edu>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: V7M
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> Subject: Re: V7M
> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
> Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 16:44:29 -0700
> From: Kirk McKusick <mckusick(a)flamingo.mckusick.com>
>
> My recollection is that V7M stood for V7-mini. It was a
> striped down version of V7 that was designed to run on
> the very low-end PDP-11's (like the 11/20).
Well, actually the M was for Modified. Particularly modified to work
with some more DEC peripherals.
What ran on 11/20's was Mini-Unix, which was a stripped-down 6th
Edition. By the way I'm not sure that the PUPS archive has a Mini-Unix
tape. I have one, although it has not been read since the days when I
had an 11/20.
carl
carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego
{decvax|ucbvax} !ucsd!mpl!cdl cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu
clowenstein(a)ucsd.edu
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Sep 2 16:09:16 1999
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: Re: V7M
In-Reply-To: <199909020606.XAA06196(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> from Carl Lowenstein at "Sep 1, 1999 11: 6:50 pm"
To: cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 16:09:16 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
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In article by Carl Lowenstein:
> Well, actually the M was for Modified. Particularly modified to work
> with some more DEC peripherals.
>
> What ran on 11/20's was Mini-Unix, which was a stripped-down 6th
> Edition. By the way I'm not sure that the PUPS archive has a Mini-Unix
> tape. I have one, although it has not been read since the days when I
> had an 11/20.
> carl
Yep, it's in Distributions/usdl/Mini-Unix. It's not in the research/
dir because it was not done in the labs, but elsewhere.
Cheers,
Warren
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>From Anders Magnusson <ragge(a)ludd.luth.se> Thu Sep 2 18:05:23 1999
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Subject: Re: KDA50 woes
To: quasijarus(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 10:05:23 +0200 (MET DST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au, quasijarus(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
In-Reply-To: <9909020115.AA00610(a)meson.jpsystems.com> from Michael Sokolov at "Sep 1, 99 08:15:23 pm"
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> Hi,
>
> I wonder, does anyone here know anything about the KDA50? I've solved my RA72
>
Well, something I think... :-)
[...]
>
> So my questions to the folks are: First, is my understanding of the situation
> correct? Second, what can be done about it? I guess as a temporary solution I
> can remove this problematic IPL autodetection code and hard-code the IPL of my
> KDA50, but what is it? Is the IPL set with switches on the KDA50 or how? And
> what do the KDA50 switches do in the first place? Does anyone know? TIA.
>
The IPL autodetect code has seemed to me as unneccessary. You know that
the KDA50 will always interrupt at spl5, so you can hard-code it in
the interrupt driver and nuke the autodetect code. The same with the
other drivers that can be on Qbus:
if (uh->uh_type == QBA)
spl5();
-- Ragge
