So far as I know (from conversations with insiders in the past), no system
was ever shipped out of Bell Labs with Ken's self-healing trojan horse in
login and the C compiler. (For those who don't remember, both programs
were involved: login buggered so that a secret string was always accepted
as a valid password for any login; the compiler buggered to recognize when
compiling login or itself, and reinsert the buggery. Hence one can remove
the buggered sources, but as long as the binaries remain, so will the bugs.)
Ken's Turing Award lecture doesn't say whether those programs were ever
shipped to the public. He probably left it dangling on purpose, since
the point he is trying to make is that it isn't just code you have to trust,
but the programmer who wrote it; you cannot possibly know everything that's
going on inside unless you created everything involved, including compilers
and assemblers and the operating system.
Dennis's Turing Award lecture in the same issue of CACM is worth re-reading too,
especially for those who think that Open Source is a cure for the common
cold or that it was invented in the 1990s or 1980s.
Norman Wilson
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Jan 6 19:45:17 2000
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: Re: CVS Repository for UNIX
In-Reply-To: <200001060909.UAA48145(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> from "norman(a)nose.cita.utoronto.ca" at "Jan 6, 2000 4: 8:52 am"
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In article by norman(a)nose.cita.utoronto.ca:
> I would argue strongly that the archive should contain absolutely pure
> copies of any historic objects, whether they were proper distributions
> or just snapshots like most of the older boot images. It's important
> to preserve accurate, unbowdlerized history; that is part of what we
> should be doing.
I agree completely.
> Even using a CVS repository somehow doesn't feel kosher to me, though
> that is probably silly as long as it is possible (and clear how) to
> extract the unimproved original, and as long as the very original
> distribution or dump tape or whatnot is kept around too so that future
> archaeologists have the right thing to study.
With CVS you can tag releases, and so you can extract back from a known
release. You can have branches at various points too, and also merge
branches. However, it really needs a CVS guru to make it work properly.
And, of course, when we get to BSD, we should bring the existing
SCCS deltas into the CVS tree, too.
The CVS idea can be someone else's project :-)
Warren
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>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Thu Jan 6 23:16:41 2000
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Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 8:16:41 -0500
From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
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Subject: Re: Viral Unix Compiler
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>So far as I know (from conversations with insiders in the past), no system
>was ever shipped out of Bell Labs with Ken's self-healing trojan horse in
>login and the C compiler. (For those who don't remember, both programs
>were involved: login buggered so that a secret string was always accepted
>as a valid password for any login; the compiler buggered to recognize when
>compiling login or itself, and reinsert the buggery. Hence one can remove
>the buggered sources, but as long as the binaries remain, so will the bugs.)
>
>Ken's Turing Award lecture doesn't say whether those programs were ever
>shipped to the public. He probably left it dangling on purpose, since
>the point he is trying to make is that it isn't just code you have to trust,
>but the programmer who wrote it; you cannot possibly know everything that's
>going on inside unless you created everything involved, including compilers
>and assemblers and the operating system.
Perhaps Ken went even further and distributed buggered binaries of 'od'
as well (along with a 'cc' patch to re-insert the 'od' hole),
so those attempting to hand disassemble the code to *check* for
the existence of the security hole wouldn't find it.
The 'cc+login' hole is nice, sweet, and self-consistent. Attempting
to patch all the other tools to make it impossible to find these holes
sounds incredibly more complicated. Maybe it was just the way Ken
so clearly presented the "how to" lesson that makes anything I try to add
onto it sound incredibly awkward.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
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>From John Foust <jfoust(a)threedee.com> Fri Jan 7 00:23:43 2000
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To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
From: John Foust <jfoust(a)threedee.com>
Subject: Re: Viral Unix Compiler
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Has it ever been independently established that this viral
version of the compiler ever actually existed, or was this
just a parable about viral code?
- John
Tim Shoppa:
This brings up a question: should fixes (and I mean fundamental fixes
like Y2K ones) be incorporated back into the boot images in the archive, or
should they be left in their "pristine" state? (Yes, i know, some of
those boot images aren't quite so pristine.)
I would argue strongly that the archive should contain absolutely pure
copies of any historic objects, whether they were proper distributions
or just snapshots like most of the older boot images. It's important
to preserve accurate, unbowdlerized history; that is part of what we
should be doing.
There's nothing wrong with keeping fixed-up versions too, but but they
should be clearly distinguished from the historic originals. (Perhaps
we could label them `ancient' and `primary platform'?)
Even using a CVS repository somehow doesn't feel kosher to me, though
that is probably silly as long as it is possible (and clear how) to
extract the unimproved original, and as long as the very original
distribution or dump tape or whatnot is kept around too so that future
archaeologists have the right thing to study.
Norman Wilson
684 Crawford Street, Toronto
(Formerly 696 Crawford Street before a renumbering in the 1950s;
I keep thinking of putting the old number up too.)
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In article by Tim Shoppa:
> This brings up a question: should fixes (and I mean fundamental fixes
> like Y2K ones) be incorporated back into the boot images in the archive, or
> should they be left in their "pristine" state? (Yes, i know, some of
> those boot images aren't quite so pristine.)
I'd agree to both. Mind you, once you start patching, where do you stop?
We could bring V6 up to being POSIX compatible with an ANSI C compiler :-)
Seriously, at one stage I did think of trying to check-in every version of
UNIX we have into a single CVS repository. Problem is, files have moved
around, and I want to leave gaps just in case we ever get the missing versions.
> As long as we're on the topic, which versions of Unix had the C
> compiler recognize when it was recompiling [/bin/login] and put a back
> door in for the developers?
I might ask Dennis for the details. From memory, the binaries never got out
of the Labs, and it would have been around the time of V6. Also from memory,
this was the topic of Ken's speech when he won the Turing award. I wonder if
the article is lying around somewhere.
Warren
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>From Andru Luvisi <luvisi(a)andru.sonoma.edu> Thu Jan 6 07:01:27 2000
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From: Andru Luvisi <luvisi(a)andru.sonoma.edu>
To: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Viral Unix Compiler
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On Thu, 6 Jan 2000, Warren Toomey wrote:
[snip]
> I might ask Dennis for the details. From memory, the binaries never got out
> of the Labs, and it would have been around the time of V6. Also from memory,
> this was the topic of Ken's speech when he won the Turing award. I wonder if
> the article is lying around somewhere.
http://www.acm.org/classics/sep95/
Andru
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>From "J. Capp" <jcapp(a)wilkes.kp.net> Thu Jan 6 07:33:48 2000
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From: "J. Capp" <jcapp(a)wilkes.kp.net>
To: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Viral Unix Compiler
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On Thu, 6 Jan 2000, Warren Toomey wrote:
>
> I might ask Dennis for the details. From memory, the binaries never got out
> of the Labs, and it would have been around the time of V6. Also from memory,
> this was the topic of Ken's speech when he won the Turing award. I wonder if
> the article is lying around somewhere.
>
Ken's speech "Reflections on Trusting Trust", was published in the
Communication of the ACM, Vol. 27, No. 8, August 1984. It describes this
"trojan horse" in great detail. But I do believe from this article that
it was an example of what could be done, not necessarily something that
was ever released into the hands of the public.
Jim Capp
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Michael Sokolov grumbled:
> Warren's note reminds me of a few other Y2K bugs I've spotted that affect
> ancient UNIX:
^^^^^^^
Would you please avoid that term? It is offensive to those for whom Kernighan/
Ritchie/Thompson/Berkeley UNIX is the primary and sole computing platform.
Thank you.
If the shoe doesn't fit, feel free not to wear it. I certainly didn't have
`Kernighan/Ritchie/Thompson/Berkeley UNIX' in mind; I rarely do, as I am
much more interested in ancient systems.
Chuckling all the way to the rest home,
Norman Wilson
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Wed Jan 5 19:33:12 2000
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From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
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Subject: Re: 200(0) Ancient UNIX Licenses
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On Tuesday, 4 January 2000 at 7:08:51 -0500, norman(a)nose.cita.utoronto.ca wrote:
> Warren's note reminds me of a few other Y2K bugs I've spotted that affect
> ancient UNIX:
> - date: no way to set the date past 1999 unless in the present year,
> because two-digit input.
I didn't have any problem with 2.11BSD. I just supplied 00 for the
year. Which release were you using?
Greg
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>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Wed Jan 5 23:23:18 2000
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Greg wrote:
>On Tuesday, 4 January 2000 at 7:08:51 -0500, norman(a)nose.cita.utoronto.ca wrote:
>> Warren's note reminds me of a few other Y2K bugs I've spotted that affect
>> ancient UNIX:
>> - date: no way to set the date past 1999 unless in the present year,
>> because two-digit input.
>I didn't have any problem with 2.11BSD. I just supplied 00 for the
>year. Which release were you using?
That's because I did the fix for 2.11BSD back when I was Y2K-ing all
my PDP-11 sources a few years ago, and Steven incorporated it into the
distribution. The fix was quick and dirty, but works fine because
Unix effectively has an expiration date of 2038 when the signed 32-bit time
word goes negative, so it's easy enough to window the centuries.
This brings up a question: should fixes (and I mean fundamental fixes
like Y2K ones) be incorporated back into the boot images in the archive, or
should they be left in their "pristine" state? (Yes, i know, some of
those boot images aren't quite so pristine.)
As long as we're on the topic, which versions of Unix had the C
compiler recognize when it was recompiling the kernel and put a back
door in for the developers? And of course the C compiler recognized
when it was recompiling itself and made sure that the this recognition
code was also inserted. As I understand it, the distributed sources
never had this security hole in them, only the binaries, but of course
the binaries self-perpetuated the security hole even if you recompiled them.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
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>From "A. P. Garcia" <apg(a)execpc.com> Thu Jan 6 00:46:13 2000
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> This brings up a question: should fixes (and I mean fundamental fixes
> like Y2K ones) be incorporated back into the boot images in the archive, or
> should they be left in their "pristine" state? (Yes, i know, some of
> those boot images aren't quite so pristine.)
Ideally, both. Perhaps boot images with these fixes should be available,
yes, but so should the originals.
> As long as we're on the topic, which versions of Unix had the C
> compiler recognize when it was recompiling the kernel and put a back
> door in for the developers?
Good question! I don't know, but it was actually the login command...
Here's Brian Kernighan's note on troff and Y2K:
in n1.c, numtab[YR] is set to localtime()->tm_year, which is the
number of years since 1900. in 2000, this will contain 100.
the troff manual says that \n(yr contains "the last two digits of
the current year", but nowhere in the code is this set, and the
year can be set to anything. so it's really "the current year
minus 1900". the manual and the code are
inconsistent, which is always a problem.
in any case, in most installations troff and nroff are legacy
systems for which there is no source code, so changing them is
not feasible. furthermore, any change to troff is likely to
require changes in macro packages anyway, and may cause silent
errors by conflicting with current behavior or colliding with
previously unused names.
fortunately, it seems straightforward to fix the macro packages
that are the most likely sources of problem; individual macro
packages will have to be fixed by individuals. grepping for
"yr" will find most trouble spots.
typical macros packages use \n(yr in two ways. one is
ds ]W (printed \n(mo/\n(dy/\n(yr)
which assumes that the year is 2 digits and to be printed as 2
digits. presumably the first day of 2000 is to be printed as
1/1/00, so the fix here is to set register yr to 2 digits
.nr yr \n(yr%100
either once at the beginning (under the assumption that the year
isn't changed by the macro package) or each time \n(yr is going
to be used (providing locality at the price of more changes).
the other common usage is
.ds ]W \*(]m \n(dy, 19\n(yr
the easiest way to fix this is to add, at the beginning again,
.nr yr 1900+\n(yr
and change all subsequent uses from 19\n(yr to \n(yr.
any macro package that uses both of these constructions will need
a bit more care to unify things; the easiest fix is likely to be
two registers, one with the full year and one with the last two
digits.
.nr YR 1900+\n(yr \" 4-digit year
.nr yr \n(yr%100 \" last two digits
this will break code that happened to use this register name.
some macro packages (e.g., -mm) try to be clever about dates,
and include explicit tests to determine whether a user-provided
date has 2 or 4 digits, and then adjust by 1900; this is another
case that has to be fiddled by hand.
any approach that changes register yr at the beginning fails if
the year is set explicitly later on, as it might be by some of
the date macros in -ms and -mm. this still seems like the best
fix, however.
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Warren's note reminds me of a few other Y2K bugs I've spotted that affect
ancient UNIX:
- date: no way to set the date past 1999 unless in the present year,
because two-digit input.
- at and atrun: commands are stored in the spooling directory with names
of the form YY.DDD.HHMM.xx, where xx is a unique number. This one is
trickier to fix, because the filename is already exactly 14 characters,
so there's no room for expansion. (On V10, I just rewrote the programs
to use a simple UNIX time expressed as a decimal number. A simpler solution
might be to print the year in hex.)
- Perhaps least consequential and most amusing: nroff and troff store the
year in a number register. The manual says it contains `the last two
digits of the year,' and many macro packages assume that is true, but the
truth is that it contains (year-1900), the same as tm_year. So, for example,
when I ran man on New Year's Day, I was told that the manual page had been
printed on 1/1/100.
I was about to fix the various troff macro packages when I noticed that
the manual implied that I shouldn't. I asked Brian Kernighan for an opinion
(since the code and the manual were both last touched by him); he thinks the
best view is that the manual is just wrong and the macro packages should be
fixed. \n(yr is a read-write register, so `.nr yr \n(yr+1900' is probably
the easiest fix, though Brian points out that it's not always the right one
(maybe you really wanted a two-digit year). If anyone is interested I can
pass along a more detailed note from Brian.
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Welcome back to all the PUPS mailing list members! They've finally turned our
router back on here, so now the list server Minnie is no longer deaf.
Over the past few weeks I've been working on my Apout simulator, with help
from Tim Shoppa, and it now runs binaries from 1st Edition UNIX. The
announcement is below; details of how to obtain the source, and some UNIX
binaries, are also given.
Hope you all had a good festive break, and best wishes for the New Year.
Cheers,
Warren
Apout -- Simulate PDP-11 Unix a.out binaries
Version 2.3 Alpha
Warren Toomey wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au
January 2000
Introduction
------------
This program is a user-level simulator for UNIX a.out binaries. Binaries
for V1, V5, V6, V7, 2.9BSD and 2.11BSD can be run with this simulator. The
user-mode PDP-11 instructions are simulated, and TRAP instructions are
emulated by calling equivalent native-mode system calls.
The advantages of an a.out simulator over a full-blown PDP-11 simulator are:
+ system calls can be done natively, thus speeding up execution
+ the simulator is less of a CPU-hog than a full-blown PDP-11 simulator
+ you don't need a simulated operating system or a simulated file system
Apout can be obtained via anonymous ftp at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au in the
directory pub/PDP-11/Sims/Apout. The directory pub/PDP-11/Sims/Apout/UnixBins
contains tar archives of a.out binaries from several versions of UNIX.
Status
------
The program is now at release 2.3 Alpha1. Most of the binaries from V5, V6
and V7 run fine. All of the V5/V6/V7 system calls are caught, but some are
ignored and some generate EPERM errors. The V1, 2.9BSD and 2.11BSD
environments are still under construction: see the file LIMITATIONS for
details. Finally, the simulator won't run on a big-endian machine.
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue Jan 4 10:08:05 2000
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <200001040008.LAA03372(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: No Answer to `Unix Mallet' Mystery
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 11:08:05 +1100 (EST)
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Hi all,
I just received this e-mail from Keith Bostic, in reply to a
strange question which was discussed on this mailing list months (years?)
ago. Read on.....
----- Forwarded message from Keith Bostic -----
Hi, Warren, I'm digging out some old email, and found the following:
> [Chris] While looking over userland source, calendar(1)'s calendar.computer
> mentions:
> 08/14 First Unix-based mallet created, 1954
> Could someone please explain the joke. :)
>
> [Warren] I can't find it in V6/V7/2.11. According to the SCCS records on
> Kirk McKusick's 4th CD,
> /usr/src/usr.bin/calendar/calendars/calendar.computer was:
> date and time created 89/11/27 14:10:01 by bostic
> Mind you, this was obviously the first time it was checked into SCCS.
>
> The earliest calendar.computer files I can find, apart from the
> SCCS record, are:
>
> 4bsd/43reno.vax/src.tar, calendar.computer dated 1989/11/28
> 4bsd/net2/net2.tar, calendar.computer dated 1989/11/28
> 4bsd/43reno.vax/usr.tar, calendar.computer dated 1990/07/29
>
> so the finger of suspicion does point at Keith Bostic.
I think I'm just the one that checked it in... around that time
I went through the source tree and committed everything into
SCCS, and, my bet is that those files weren't already under SCCS.
I also broke the single calendar file up into a bunch of different
files as part of re-writing calendar(1) to make it AT&T free.
You might want to look in early releases for a "calendar" source
file, and not "calendar.computer" (although I'm not positive it
was named "calendar", I'm pretty sure that I broke an original
file up into multiple files, so I created the "calendar.computer"
file and filled it with stuff from an already existing file).
> So can you shed any light on this interesting entry in calendar.computer,
> was it a private joke, and were you the perpertrator?
Not me. Did you ever figure out where the line came from?
--keith
----- End of forwarded message from Keith Bostic -----
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue Jan 4 11:40:19 2000
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <200001040140.MAA04392(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: 200 Ancient UNIX Licenses
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 12:40:19 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au
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Hi all,
Just a note to say that I have received SCO Ancient UNIX licenses
up to AU-201 in the mail today. Another note: a bug in the date libraries
in 5th and 6th Edition Unix prevents ctime() from properly displaying
dates after November 1999. I haven't bothered to find/fix it yet.
Cheers,
Warren
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On Mon, 13 Dec 1999, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> > From: Arno Griffioen <arno(a)usn.nl>
> >
> > OK.. Biggie here is that this machine doesn't have a tape drive, just
> > 2 RA92 drives. It used to have a TU81, but it seems to have been junked
>
>
> Congratulations on getting a /94 with RA92 drives! Condolences
> on the tape drive being junked.
Agree. I'd like to get my hands on a /94 myself... :-)
> > No ethernet card either.. (anybody know where to get a DEUNA cheap??)
>
> In the US there are many places which sell used DEC equipment but
> I do not know of any in the Netherlands. If at all possible get
> a DELUA insetad - less power hungry and fewer bugs.
Less powerhungry, yes. It also takes less space on the Unibus, and is
faster. But I wasn't aware that the DEUNA had any more bugs than the
DELUA. Please enlight me. (I only use DELUAs myself, but I have one or two
DEUNAs lying around).
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Sat Dec 18 02:30:33 1999
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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 17:30:33 +0100 (MET)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
In-Reply-To: <199912142119.NAA06698(a)moe.2bsd.com>
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On Tue, 14 Dec 1999, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> Hi -
>
> > From arno(a)usn.nl Mon Dec 13 23:28:32 1999
> > this thing. At least the RA92's are quite a bit more 'civilized' than the
> > RA82 on my uVAX which is more like a howling banshee..
>
> Use less power and are more reliable (also larger capacity I believe)
RA82: 622 MB
RA92: 1.2GB
All with reservations about my memory going bad... :-)
> > Guess my first search will be for either an UNIBUS SCSI controller or
> > a TK50/TK70 controller as I still have some drives for those..
>
> A TK70 controller will run a TK50 drive very nicely _and_ offer
> the benefit of the buffer cache (which speeds things up greatly). I
> do not know if there was a Unibus TK50 adaptor though.
TUK50 was (is) the name of that controller. I've actually played with a
VAX-11/750 with a TK50 once upon a time many moons ago.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sat Dec 18 04:26:03 1999
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From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
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Subject: Re: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
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Hi -
> From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
> RA82: 622 MB
> RA92: 1.2GB
That sounds a little small. AH, let me go check /etc/disktab on
the PDP-11
The RA90 was ~1.2GB:
:pc#2376153:oc#0:bc#1024:fc#1024:
and the RA92 was closer to 1.4GB:
:pc#2940951:oc#0:bc#1024:fc#1024:
> > A TK70 controller will run a TK50 drive very nicely _and_ offer
>
> TUK50 was (is) the name of that controller. I've actually played with a
> VAX-11/750 with a TK50 once upon a time many moons ago.
Was there a TUK70 - or was the TK70 for the Qbus systems only?
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:22:39 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199912171822.KAA04095(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
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Hi -
> From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
> Agree. I'd like to get my hands on a /94 myself... :-)
An 11/93 would be nice too, Qbus systems use less power and make less
noise from what I have seen.
> Less powerhungry, yes. It also takes less space on the Unibus, and is
> faster. But I wasn't aware that the DEUNA had any more bugs than the
> DELUA. Please enlight me. (I only use DELUAs myself, but I have one or two
> DEUNAs lying around).
I know the DEQNA had firmware problems that could cause the board to
lock up under load - perhaps I was confusing the DEQNA and DEUNA.
The later Qbus board (DELQA) was much nicer in the same way that the
DELUA is better than the DEUNA.
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
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>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Sat Dec 18 05:10:31 1999
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From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
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On Fri, 17 Dec 1999, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> Hi -
>
> > From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
> > Agree. I'd like to get my hands on a /94 myself... :-)
>
> An 11/93 would be nice too, Qbus systems use less power and make less
> noise from what I have seen.
Well, I'm in love with Unibus systems... I have an 11/84 at home, and of
course, there is always Magica, which is an 11/70... :-)
(And then we have Knase, which is our 11/70 with 2.11BSD. Unfortunately,
both systems are powered off right now because of cooling problems. :-(
> > Less powerhungry, yes. It also takes less space on the Unibus, and is
> > faster. But I wasn't aware that the DEUNA had any more bugs than the
> > DELUA. Please enlight me. (I only use DELUAs myself, but I have one or two
> > DEUNAs lying around).
>
> I know the DEQNA had firmware problems that could cause the board to
> lock up under load - perhaps I was confusing the DEQNA and DEUNA.
> The later Qbus board (DELQA) was much nicer in the same way that the
> DELUA is better than the DEUNA.
I don't think the DEUNA has that bug which riddles the DEQNA.
Also, the DEUNA/DELUA loads some microcode when I start using them, this
is running RSX. That microcode is located on the RSX system. Beats me what
it is for, or anything.
Worse (parhaps) is that the device driver for the DEUNA/DELUA don't work
with any Q-bus models, which means I don't have a driver for Q-bus
machines...
Anybody know anything more about this? I really don't care to dig around
the sources here, and also, I don't have the sources to all components.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Sat Dec 18 05:12:45 1999
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From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
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On Fri, 17 Dec 1999, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> Hi -
>
> > From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
> > RA82: 622 MB
> > RA92: 1.2GB
>
> That sounds a little small. AH, let me go check /etc/disktab on
> the PDP-11
>
> The RA90 was ~1.2GB:
>
> :pc#2376153:oc#0:bc#1024:fc#1024:
>
> and the RA92 was closer to 1.4GB:
>
> :pc#2940951:oc#0:bc#1024:fc#1024:
You got me. :-)
> > > A TK70 controller will run a TK50 drive very nicely _and_ offer
> >
> > TUK50 was (is) the name of that controller. I've actually played with a
> > VAX-11/750 with a TK50 once upon a time many moons ago.
>
> Was there a TUK70 - or was the TK70 for the Qbus systems only?
Yes, Q-bus only. When the TK70 came out, I guess DEC had decided to stop
development of Unibus peripherials.
I very much doubt they sold that many TUK50, or RUX50 controllers.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
> The "old" firmware will do fine up until the end of 28-Feb-2000, when it
> will promptly wrap back around to 1990. You can use 2.11BSD 'toyset'
> (or the RSX-11 or RT-11 equivalent) to set the TOY clock after that date,
> but at power on it'll reset back to 1990.
No prob.. If I get a SLIP link up and running I'll just suck down the right
date from an NTP server on my net which is synchronized to a radio clock.
Heck, I could just hook up a clock receiver to the machine directly!
I hardly ever bother to set hardware clocks in my machines anymore. The
batteries in my VAX for the clock and stuff ran out quite a while ago, but
no problem either..
> See the discussions in vmsnet.pdp-11 earlier this year for the ordering
> code and cost (I think it's around $25.00) for the new 11/93 and 11/94
> firmware.
Any idea about version numbers I could check? This machine was used until
pretty recently in a production environment and maintained pretty
well on the hardware/firmware level. I don't think it was decomissioned
because of Y2K, but because they were told that they could provide a 'better'
service with a Micro$oft solution.
Last thing I heard is that the new solution is sorta falling apart all over
the place.. Not surprising to me, but they're not getting this machine back! :-)
Bye, Arno.
--
PSINetworks Europe Fax: +31-23-5699841 | One disk to rule them all,
Siriusdreef 34 Tel: +31-23-5699840 | One disk to bind them,
2132WT Hoofddorp+--------------------------------+ One disk to hold the files
The Netherlands | * Musical Interlude * | And in the darkness grind 'em
----------------+--------------------------------+------------------------------
We say Retribution, We say Vengeance is bliss, We say Revolution,
With a Cast-Iron fist! (Megadeth, 'The Disintegrators')
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi -
> From arno(a)usn.nl Mon Dec 13 23:28:32 1999
> The '94 is way cool! I'm amazed at the extensive menu-based boot ROM in
Yep - I have seen that on the 11/93 at my place. Nice. Having the
"toyclock" to get the date/time from is real good too.
> this thing. At least the RA92's are quite a bit more 'civilized' than the
> RA82 on my uVAX which is more like a howling banshee..
Use less power and are more reliable (also larger capacity I believe)
> otherwise I wouldn't have had the problem.. I have an UC07 SCSI controller
> I could use for a while (but it's QBUS) to hook up a tape drive.
As I was reminded a short time ago - don't put a Qbus board into a
Unibus machine (or the other way around) :-)
> Any network connection will be OK.. I hope BSD has PPP support? That
> should give at least some rudimentary network connectivity (even if it's
> just 9600)
SL/IP yes but 2.11 predates PPP and I am not sure there is room in
the kernel/networking for PPP (which is a much more complex protocol).
I've run SL/IP just fine - and if you have the (fairly) recent updates
to enable hardware flowcontrol you can run considerably faster than
9600 and not worry about dropped characters or truncated packets.
> Or I could use 1 RA92 (with the problem you describe) and use it to
> run the install on the second drive? (partitioning that properly)
Ah, yes indeed! As long as the kernel's idea of the drive size
is less than what the actual disk image is then you should not have
any problems - i.e. if you put an RA60 sized image on an RA92 it
should work (at least well enough to configure the 2nd drive correctly).
Obviously the other way around would not work ;)
> Guess my first search will be for either an UNIBUS SCSI controller or
> a TK50/TK70 controller as I still have some drives for those..
A TK70 controller will run a TK50 drive very nicely _and_ offer
the benefit of the buffer cache (which speeds things up greatly). I
do not know if there was a Unibus TK50 adaptor though.
An inexpensive TS05 would be a real nice thing to have about now ;)
Steve
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>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Wed Dec 15 07:55:41 1999
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From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
CC: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
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Subject: Re: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
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>> From arno(a)usn.nl Mon Dec 13 23:28:32 1999
>> The '94 is way cool! I'm amazed at the extensive menu-based boot ROM in
> Yep - I have seen that on the 11/93 at my place. Nice. Having the
> "toyclock" to get the date/time from is real good too.
As long as you've updated to the Y2K-compliant KDJ11-E firmware, that is.
The "old" firmware will do fine up until the end of 28-Feb-2000, when it
will promptly wrap back around to 1990. You can use 2.11BSD 'toyset'
(or the RSX-11 or RT-11 equivalent) to set the TOY clock after that date,
but at power on it'll reset back to 1990.
See the discussions in vmsnet.pdp-11 earlier this year for the ordering
code and cost (I think it's around $25.00) for the new 11/93 and 11/94
firmware.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
>> I was thinking of using one of those TU58 emulators on the PC, but I
>> didn't find any mention of booting an 11/94 of these tape drives
>> or installing UNIX from it..
> No support for the TU58 in the kernel or boot program. At 256kb
> it's barely large enough to hold the standalone programs much less
> a dump of the root filesystem or anything like that.
Even if there was support, it'd be just plain cruel, even with emulated
TU58's. Reminds me of "The Wagner Ring Cycle on Convenient 45's".
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Tue Dec 14 06:56:53 1999
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From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
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To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
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> From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
>
> Even if there was support, it'd be just plain cruel, even with emulated
> TU58's. Reminds me of "The Wagner Ring Cycle on Convenient 45's".
That wasn't too bad. You should try Das Rheingold on 78's :)
Steve
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>From Arno Griffioen <arno(a)usn.nl> Tue Dec 14 17:28:16 1999
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Subject: Re: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
In-Reply-To: <199912131935.LAA18041(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Dec 13, 1999 11:35:35 am"
To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:28:16 +0100 (CET)
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> > OK.. Biggie here is that this machine doesn't have a tape drive, just
> > 2 RA92 drives. It used to have a TU81, but it seems to have been junked
>
>
> Congratulations on getting a /94 with RA92 drives! Condolences
> on the tape drive being junked.
The '94 is way cool! I'm amazed at the extensive menu-based boot ROM in
this thing. At least the RA92's are quite a bit more 'civilized' than the
RA82 on my uVAX which is more like a howling banshee..
Pity I have little UNIBUS stuff.. Most of my other DEC hardware is QBUS based,
otherwise I wouldn't have had the problem.. I have an UC07 SCSI controller
I could use for a while (but it's QBUS) to hook up a tape drive.
The machine itself seems to work fine (and seems to be pretty much 'lodaded').
Runs RSX-11 now (at least a partial setup as I wasn't able to get all drives)
> > No ethernet card either.. (anybody know where to get a DEUNA cheap??)
>
> In the US there are many places which sell used DEC equipment but
> I do not know of any in the Netherlands. If at all possible get
> a DELUA insetad - less power hungry and fewer bugs.
Any network connection will be OK.. I hope BSD has PPP support? That
should give at least some rudimentary network connectivity (even if it's
just 9600)
> RP06 or 7. Then at the last minute install the MSCP bootblock.
> DD that image to an RA92 and hoo that up to the /94.
Worth a shot..
> The problem you will most likely encounter is that the size will not
> be exactly right for the last partition. Experimenting with the
> standalone 'disklabel' program and adjusting the sizes/geometry may
> be needed. If the size is changed then 'fsck -s' to force a
> rebuild of the freelist will be needed.
Or I could use 1 RA92 (with the problem you describe) and use it to
run the install on the second drive? (partitioning that properly)
> No support for the TU58 in the kernel or boot program. At 256kb
> it's barely large enough to hold the standalone programs much less
> a dump of the root filesystem or anything like that.
OK. Got that.
Guess my first search will be for either an UNIBUS SCSI controller or
a TK50/TK70 controller as I still have some drives for those..
I have little or no 9-track reel tape stuff :-)
Thanx for the help!
Bye, Arno.
--
PSINetworks Europe Fax: +31-23-5699841 | One disk to rule them all,
Siriusdreef 34 Tel: +31-23-5699840 | One disk to bind them,
2132WT Hoofddorp+--------------------------------+ One disk to hold the files
The Netherlands | * Musical Interlude * | And in the darkness grind 'em
----------------+--------------------------------+------------------------------
We say Retribution, We say Vengeance is bliss, We say Revolution,
With a Cast-Iron fist! (Megadeth, 'The Disintegrators')
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OK.. Biggie here is that this machine doesn't have a tape drive, just
2 RA92 drives. It used to have a TU81, but it seems to have been junked
along the way.
No ethernet card either.. (anybody know where to get a DEUNA cheap??)
What are my options to get 2.11BSD running on this beast?
I have a uVAX 3600 running NetBSD, so I could possibly dump a raw
filesystem image onto one of the RA92's and perhaps boot the 11/94
off of it. Is this feasible? I haven't looked into it yet..
I was thinking of using one of those TU58 emulators on the PC, but I
didn't find any mention of booting an 11/94 of these tape drives
or installing UNIX from it..
I don't have any other UNIBUS cards, so I can't plug my TK70 into
the 11/94..
Any thoughts on the subject are welcome..
Bye, Arno.
--
PSINetworks Europe Fax: +31-23-5699841 | One disk to rule them all,
Siriusdreef 34 Tel: +31-23-5699840 | One disk to bind them,
2132WT Hoofddorp+--------------------------------+ One disk to hold the files
The Netherlands | * Musical Interlude * | And in the darkness grind 'em
----------------+--------------------------------+------------------------------
We say Retribution, We say Vengeance is bliss, We say Revolution,
With a Cast-Iron fist! (Megadeth, 'The Disintegrators')
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Tue Dec 14 05:35:35 1999
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From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199912131935.LAA18041(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
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Hi -
> From: Arno Griffioen <arno(a)usn.nl>
>
> OK.. Biggie here is that this machine doesn't have a tape drive, just
> 2 RA92 drives. It used to have a TU81, but it seems to have been junked
Congratulations on getting a /94 with RA92 drives! Condolences
on the tape drive being junked.
> No ethernet card either.. (anybody know where to get a DEUNA cheap??)
In the US there are many places which sell used DEC equipment but
I do not know of any in the Netherlands. If at all possible get
a DELUA insetad - less power hungry and fewer bugs.
> What are my options to get 2.11BSD running on this beast?
>
> I have a uVAX 3600 running NetBSD, so I could possibly dump a raw
> filesystem image onto one of the RA92's and perhaps boot the 11/94
> off of it. Is this feasible? I haven't looked into it yet..
Yes, it should be possible. You will need to run one of the emulators
(either Bob Supnik's or Willi Begemot's "P11"). The tricky part
will be in the geometry/size of the disk image. The emulators
do not know about MSCP drives so you will have to go thru the bootstrap
process using an SMD ('xp' driver) drive and pretend you have a
RP06 or 7. Then at the last minute install the MSCP bootblock.
DD that image to an RA92 and hoo that up to the /94.
The problem you will most likely encounter is that the size will not
be exactly right for the last partition. Experimenting with the
standalone 'disklabel' program and adjusting the sizes/geometry may
be needed. If the size is changed then 'fsck -s' to force a
rebuild of the freelist will be needed.
Experimentation - I think it'd take a few tries to get it right ;)
> I was thinking of using one of those TU58 emulators on the PC, but I
> didn't find any mention of booting an 11/94 of these tape drives
> or installing UNIX from it..
No support for the TU58 in the kernel or boot program. At 256kb
it's barely large enough to hold the standalone programs much less
a dump of the root filesystem or anything like that.
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
[ apologies to those who receive this e-mail multiple times ]
This e-mail is being sent to you via a mailing list run on the machine
minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au. I've been informed that our entire network is
going to be shut down from Friday 24 December until Monday 3 January 2000.
In other words, all services on Minnie (web, ftp, CGI scripts, this mailing
list) will be temporarily unavailable during this period. Minnie, as always,
will be sitting here under my desk, waiting for someone to talk to her. So
as soon as the routers come back up, Minnie will reappear.
I'll take this opportunity to wish everybody a happy festive season; take it
safe on the roads, don't go anywhere near the CBD of Sydney on New Year's Eve,
and we'll catch you again in 2000, assuming your Microsloth Windoze box isn't
infected with gazillions of viruses :-)
Cheers all,
Warren Toomey wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au
[Snip instructions for installing a bootstrap]
No, I got the installation of the bootstrap just fine. I was told that
the bootstrap for MSCP disks uses a bug in the UDA50 that some 3rd party
controllers don't exhibit. (In my case, I have a Viking UDT SCSI controller)
I was saying I needed to know where/how to change the bootstrap (modify the
bootstrap, not use a different one) so that it will work.
I got a pointer at some 3BSD stuff on Minnie, but that code used a boot ROM on
the VAX 750 to get it's job done.
I don't have any MSCP books so I don't know where or how to change the
bootstrap to make it work on my machine.
-------
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Fri Dec 10 10:50:12 1999
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From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199912100050.QAA18487(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: 2.11BSD boot looping
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> From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com>
> I was saying I needed to know where/how to change the bootstrap (modify the
> bootstrap, not use a different one) so that it will work.
Hmmm, ok - that wasn't clear. It read as if the documentation was
needed to install a new/different bootblock.
> I got a pointer at some 3BSD stuff on Minnie, but that code used a boot ROM on
> the VAX 750 to get it's job done.
Yep - same in 4BSD too, I remember thinking at one time "ah, I'll
just use the 4BSD bootcode as a guide" only to find out it was
calling into the ROMs.
> I don't have any MSCP books so I don't know where or how to change the
> bootstrap to make it work on my machine.
IF the bug is what has been suspected so far then presenting a
vector to the controller during the 4 step init process is what
needs to be done.
Looking at the standalone MSCP driver (/sys/pdpstand/ra.c) which has
the logic to specify a vector even though interrupts are not use the
logic is:
if (rainit[ctlr] == 0) {
again: raaddr->raip = 0;
if (ra_step(raaddr, RA_STEP1, 1))
goto again;
raaddr->rasa = RA_ERR | (0154/4);
if (ra_step(raaddr, RA_STEP2, 2))
goto again;
iomapadr(&racom->ra_ca.ca_ringbase, &bae, &lo16);
raaddr->rasa = lo16;
if (ra_step(raaddr, RA_STEP3, 3))
goto again;
raaddr->rasa = bae;
if (ra_step(raaddr, RA_STEP4, 4))
goto again;
raaddr->rasa = RA_GO;
if (racmd(M_OP_STCON, io) < 0) {
printf("%s STCON err\n", devname(io));
return(-1);
}
rainit[ctlr] = 1;
}
Thus it is only done on 'first open'.
It is in step 1 that the vector divided by 4 needs to be "OR"'d into
the work presented to the controller.
The ra boot block code (/sys/mdec/rauboot.s) has a loop:
/
/ RA initialize controller
/
mov $RASTEP1,r0
mov raip,r1
clr (r1)+ / go through controller init seq.
mov $icons,r2
1:
bit r0,(r1)
beq 1b
---->>>>
mov (r2)+,(r1)
asl r0
bpl 1b
mov $ra+RARSPREF,*$ra+RARSPL / set controller characteristics
mov $ra+RACMDREF,*$ra+RACMDL
mov $RASTCON,r0
jsr pc,racmd
mov unit,*$ra+RAUNIT / bring boot unit online
mov $RAONLIN,r0
jsr pc,racmd
...
I suspect that the loop at ---->>> needs to be modified to do something
special for step 1.
Steve
Hi -
> From: James Lothian <simul8(a)simul8.demon.co.uk>
> For what it's worth, this does sound suspiciously like what the 4.3
> boot code did with the Viking. As far as I can remember, there is a
> flag in one of the UDA50 registers that is set to 1 one the device
> interrupts. The 4.3 boot code runs the UDA50 with interrupts disabled,
Actually it's in the response packet rather than a UDA 'register' but
yep - that sounds very familiar.
> but polls this flag to find out when the controller has finished a
> command.
> On the UDA50, even if interrupts are disabled, this flag gets set. On
> the viking, it doesn't. I can't remember the exact change I made, but I
At least one of the changes was to give the MSCP adaptor a vector
during the 3 or 4 step init process. Normally 4.3/2.11 didn't bother
to give a vector since interrupts were disabled. It doesn't
reall matter what the vector is as long as it's non zero - the
value used was 0154 (primary/1st MSCP adaptor).
Some other 3rd party adaptors (can't recall if it was Dilog or
Emulex or ...) had the same problem.
> "Daniel A. Seagraves" wrote:
> >
> > It's looping around at 157702.
> >
> > 157702 contains 001776
Hmmm, I wonder if that's in the bootblock code or the actual boot
program.
The standalone MSCP driver in 2.11 has the "give a vector to the
adaptor" change so my guess is that the bootblock is where the
looping is happening. The bootbock (rauboot.s from /sys/mdec)
relocates itself to 0160000-01000 or 0157000 so a loop at 0157702
would be where the 'racmd:' routine is looping waiting for a
command to complete (or the adaptor to come ready the first time).
I thought the same "give a vector" change had been made to rauboot.s
but it would appear that's not the case ;-(
Steven Schultz
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>From Martin Crehan <mjcrehan(a)earthlink.net> Wed Dec 1 01:59:21 1999
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To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
From: Martin Crehan <mjcrehan(a)earthlink.net>
Subject: Salon.com article on John Lions book
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The site Salon.com has an article:
http://www.Salon1999.com/tech/feature/1999/11/30/lions/index.html
on John Lions' book about Sixth Edition Unix, written by from a non-computer
geek's viewpoint.
Martin Crehan
For what it's worth, this does sound suspiciously like what the 4.3
boot code did with the Viking. As far as I can remember, there is a
flag in one of the UDA50 registers that is set to 1 one the device
interrupts. The 4.3 boot code runs the UDA50 with interrupts disabled,
but polls this flag to find out when the controller has finished a
command.
On the UDA50, even if interrupts are disabled, this flag gets set. On
the viking, it doesn't. I can't remember the exact change I made, but I
got it from the sources for some later version of 4.3, which I probably
found on the internet. I'll try firing the beast up tonight, and see if
I
can figure out what I did.
My hacked around version of UW 4.3+NFS that Michael Sokolov uploaded
to PUPS should also contain this modification. Somebody could try
comparing my version to the original UW version -- they're both in the
archive, as far as I know.
James
"Daniel A. Seagraves" wrote:
>
> It's looping around at 157702.
>
> 157702 contains 001776
>
> -------
Hi -
> From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
> Did the version of 2.11BSD you're working from have disklabel support in
> the hk driver? Disklabel support there was added recently (where "recent"
> = 2 years ago).
And even then the disklabel changes to the HK (rk06/7) driver have
not been actually tested - the site that was going to do that had
equipment failures and that combined with the lack of interest in
or curiosity about PDP-11s resulted the the entire 11 collection being
scrapped.
So, I went and make the changes anyhow and they "should work" since
adding disklabel support to a driver is mostly a boilerplate type of
activity but there's always the chance that an error crept in.
Disklabel support for the XP (rp03/4/5/6/7) driver is known to work
well.
Steven Schultz
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From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199911272100.NAA04124(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: 2.11BSD
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> From: pups(a)mrynet.com (PUPS mailing list)
> Scott G. Akmentins-Taylor InterNet: staylor(a)mrynet.com
> Did you successfully build from a boot-tape image on the emulator, or did
> you copy the RP06 image (such as on the PUPS archive) directly to the disk
> and tranfer the physical drive to the PDP? (And what method/command did
> you use?)
>
> > Has anyone done this before? I would use a SCSI tape to boot from but the
> > SCSI tape drive I have died. (Roached literally - one of the little fsckers
>
> I do this regularly for my vaxen. 10 to 1 Steven Schultz has been this route
> on the PDP-11's tho (Hi Steven :).
'fraid I haven't been _that_ route before.
What I would do today, given the presence of a Qbus SCSI adaptor in the
system, is either
1) Use a cheesy old 4mm drive (I've a Sony SDT5000 that's too small
and/or slow today for the Intel system - upgrade it to an 8mm
drive), hook that up to the PC and blast the 2.11BSD boot kit
on it (using the instructions, etc provided in the PUPS archive).
Then move the 4mm drive over to the PDP-11 and boot the tape .
2) Get a SCSI Zip drive, hook it up to the "PC" and use one of the
emulators to create a ~96mb image of a system containing the
standalone utilities + dump of root fs + tar files for usr.
Then march the Zip drive over to the PDP-11 and boot. Instead
of specifying "tape file numbers" to the standalone programs
(as in "tms(0,1)") you would use "ra(1,0)disklabel" and so on.
A Zip drive is _real nice_ to have on the 11/73 - the Zip is actually
quite a bit faster than an RD53/RD54 and the media and drives are
cheap for Zips (Internal SCSI zip drives and a 3.5" shoebox run perhaps
$150 or so).
Steven Schultz
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>From "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Sun Nov 28 07:23:30 1999
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From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com>
Subject: Re: 2.11BSD
To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
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[Given the presence of...]
Like I said, I tried #2 there, and failed. But it is possible to do?
That's all I was really after.
Halt address coming in about 1/2 hour or an hour, depends on when they're
done with the cord.
Oh, and a Qbus SCSI card in this box would likely go FUMP!
This is an 11/44.
I plan on taking pictures sometime. ^_^
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sun Nov 28 09:23:37 1999
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Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 15:23:37 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199911272323.PAA04916(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: 2.11BSD
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> From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com>
> Like I said, I tried #2 there, and failed. But it is possible to do?
> That's all I was really after.
Oh, it _should_ work - so yes, it's possible if all the underlying
pieces are in place.
Hmmm, rather than trying to use a pre-existing RP06 disk image
perhaps it would be better to get the tape images (should be
in the pups archive) and use 'makesimtape' or whatever to create
a bootable tape image for one of the emulators. Going thru a
"cold install" to create a disk image should work.
You do have floating point hardware in the 11/44, correct?
> Halt address coming in about 1/2 hour or an hour, depends on when they're
> done with the cord.
>
> Oh, and a Qbus SCSI card in this box would likely go FUMP!
> This is an 11/44.
Doh! That's what comes from dashing off a mail item in a rush
to go off to lunch ;)
Steven
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>From "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Sun Nov 28 09:42:58 1999
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Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 15:42:58 -0800
From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com>
Subject: Re: 2.11BSD
To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
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[Use an image built from an install tape...]
I did.
[Have floating point?]
Yup. Floating point and I'm one memory board short of 2 meg of RAM.
(I'm at 19xx bytes, forgot the exact number.)
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>From "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Sun Nov 28 10:35:47 1999
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Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 16:35:47 -0800
From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com>
Subject: 2.11BSD boot looping
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
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It's looping around at 157702.
157702 contains 001776
-------
I am now dangerously close to getting 2.11BSD on my 11/44. ^_^
I got a SCSI disk controller (Viking UDT) and TS11 tapes, and 16 ports of
DZ11s (Anyone got jumper/DIP switch info on these?), but my problem is
lack of a boot tape.
Anyway, since I have other machines around which can grok SCSI disks, I tried
making an RP06 image on Supnik's emulator, installing the rauboot instead of
hkuboot, but it failed. The PDP-11 read the bootstrap in OK and the bootstrap
was running but it was looping (I forgot the address).
Has anyone done this before? I would use a SCSI tape to boot from but the
SCSI tape drive I have died. (Roached literally - one of the little fsckers
got inside it and got fried.)
-------
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>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Sun Nov 28 05:13:59 1999
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Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 14:13:59 -0500
From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
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Subject: Re: 2.11BSD
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>Anyway, since I have other machines around which can grok SCSI disks, I tried
>making an RP06 image on Supnik's emulator, installing the rauboot instead of
>hkuboot, but it failed.
Are you sure it was a RP06 image? hkuboot is the RK06/07 bootstrap.
How did you move the RP06 (or RK06) image to the physical SCSI drive? You
were asking about doing it with RT-11 a few weeks ago, but you *do*
know that RT-11 won't conventionally access the 65536th (and
2*65536th, and 3*65536th...) blocks on a MSCP partition, don't you? (There
is a way of accessing that last block, but you have to code it with
a .SPFUN call to the DU driver, and none of the distributed RT-11 utilities
work on that last block, even with the /DEVICE qualifier.)
Did the version of 2.11BSD you're working from have disklabel support in
the hk driver? Disklabel support there was added recently (where "recent"
= 2 years ago).
> The PDP-11 read the bootstrap in OK and the bootstrap
>was running but it was looping (I forgot the address).
Get us the address (HALT the 11/44, either with the front panel toggle
or control-P from the console) and we'll find out why it's looping.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
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> I am now dangerously close to getting 2.11BSD on my 11/44. ^_^
> I got a SCSI disk controller (Viking UDT) and TS11 tapes, and 16 ports of
> DZ11s (Anyone got jumper/DIP switch info on these?), but my problem is
> lack of a boot tape.
I have the DZ11 (M7814) user's guide right here.
1) Priority insert level 5 goes in E41.
2) E72 -- Address.
Closed (on) is binary 1.
A12 A11 A10 A9 A8 A7 A6 A5 A4 A3
-----------------------------------------
| 10| 9 | 8 | 7 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 |
on | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | |
off | | | | | | | | | | |
-----------------------------------------
Addressing examples:
160000 -- A12 thru A3 OFF
160010 -- A12 thru A4 OFF, A3 ON
177770 -- A12 thru A3 ON
(OFF=Logical 0, ON=Logical 1)
3) E81 -- Vector
Closed (on) is a binary 0.
-unused- V3 V4 V5 V6 V7 V8
---------------------------------
| 8 | 7 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 |
on | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | |
off | | | | | | | | |
---------------------------------
Vectoring examples:
Vector V8 V7 V6 V5 V4 V3
300 ON OFF OFF ON ON ON
310 ON OFF OFF ON ON OFF
770 OFF OFF OFF OFF OFF OFF
(ON=Logical 0, OFF=Logical 1)
Let me know if you need any more info.
> Anyway, since I have other machines around which can grok SCSI disks, I tried
> making an RP06 image on Supnik's emulator, installing the rauboot instead of
> hkuboot, but it failed. The PDP-11 read the bootstrap in OK and the bootstrap
> was running but it was looping (I forgot the address).
Did you successfully build from a boot-tape image on the emulator, or did you copy
the RP06 image (such as on the PUPS archive) directly to the disk and tranfer
the physical drive to the PDP? (And what method/command did you use?)
> Has anyone done this before? I would use a SCSI tape to boot from but the
> SCSI tape drive I have died. (Roached literally - one of the little fsckers
> got inside it and got fried.)
I do this regularly for my vaxen. 10 to 1 Steven Schultz has been this route
on the PDP-11's tho (Hi Steven :).
Lemme know if I can help more.
Regards,
-skots
--
Scott G. Akmentins-Taylor InterNet: staylor(a)mrynet.com
MRY Systems staylor(a)mrynet.lv
(Skots Gregorijs Akmentins-Teilors -- just call me "Skots")
----- Labak miris neka sarkans -----
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>From James Lothian <simul8(a)simul8.demon.co.uk> Sun Nov 28 05:26:19 1999
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To: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com>
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Subject: Re: 2.11BSD
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Hmm.. I've got a manual for the Viking UDT, and I'll try to remember to
bring it in on Monday.
I don't know anything about how 2.11BSD boots. However, I had an
interesting
time trying to get 4.3BSD on my 750 to boot off this controller. It
turned out
that the Viking's emulation of the UDA50 isn't *quite* accurate, and
that the 4.3 boot
code was using one of the edge-of-the-envelope features that the Viking
didn't quite
emulate right. I modified the bootstrap slightly and got it going.
Whether this
has anything to do with your problem, I don't know. (It was worth all
the effort
in the end, to see the monster hulking 750 booting of a little dinky
plastic zip drive!)
James
"Daniel A. Seagraves" wrote:
>
> I am now dangerously close to getting 2.11BSD on my 11/44. ^_^
> I got a SCSI disk controller (Viking UDT) and TS11 tapes, and 16 ports of
> DZ11s (Anyone got jumper/DIP switch info on these?), but my problem is
> lack of a boot tape.
>
> Anyway, since I have other machines around which can grok SCSI disks, I tried
> making an RP06 image on Supnik's emulator, installing the rauboot instead of
> hkuboot, but it failed. The PDP-11 read the bootstrap in OK and the bootstrap
> was running but it was looping (I forgot the address).
>
> Has anyone done this before? I would use a SCSI tape to boot from but the
> SCSI tape drive I have died. (Roached literally - one of the little fsckers
> got inside it and got fried.)
>
> -------
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>From "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Sun Nov 28 05:28:56 1999
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Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 11:28:56 -0800
From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com>
Subject: Re: 2.11BSD
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
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[Replied to Tim but not the list - oops!]
Method to transfer drive: FTPd disk image to MicroVAX running NetBSD,
used cat. Saved the RT11 image beforehand. When BSD died I put RT11 back.
RT11 works.
Disk image was an RP06 constructed from a boot tape I made. It used stuff
from the PUPS archive but wasn't the image from the archive.
I will get the loop address shortly - I have to get an extension cord back to
power the machine.
-------
Thanks to Eric for passing on that posting from Dennis re PDP-7 dsw.
For those who don't read the newsgroups, there's a new version of the
Begemot PDP-11 emulator:
------------------
From: Hartmut Brandt <brandt(a)fokus.gmd.de>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp11
Subject: Version 2.4 of the p11 PDP-11 emulator
Date: 19 Nov 1999 15:04:33 GMT
Version 2.4 of p11 - the Begemot PDP-11 emulator - is available on
ftp.fokus.gmd.de:/pub/cats/usr/harti/p11. This release supports the following
platforms:
FreeBSD 4.0
Sparc-Solaris 2.[5678]
Redhat-Linux
It will possibly work on FreeBSD [23].* and other Linux variants.
To build it you need libbegemot (avalaible in the same location), gcc and
gmake. Previous versions also built on BSD/OS and SunOS.
------------------
Cheers,
Warren
Sorry for the repetition if you've already seen this. The
source code for the PDP-7 Unix dsw command was just reposted
in alt.sysadmin.recovery. Here's the article:
Newsgroups: alt.sysadmin.recovery
From: flaps(a)dgp.toronto.edu (Alan J Rosenthal)
Subject: Re: Time to train not one, but 15 PFY's. . .
Date: 23 Nov 99 22:17:39 GMT
SKaranyi+n0(a)localhost.ruhr.de (Wolfgang Schelongowski) writes:
>>NAME dsw -- delete interactively
...
>Radio hams with contact to the `Evil Empire' know that it's the short
>form of doswidanye or so. IOW "Bye".
Fascinating. It appears that although it was claimed to stand for "delete
from switches", and this is what it actually did, it was also a pun on the
amateur radio abbreviation.
The later program described in the previous article seems to be named after
the original (and no longer deserves the name "dsw"). And the original "dsw"
was *not* interactive.
The original "dsw" program uses the console switches to specify the file
to be deleted, for file names with funny characters in them. It was
astonishingly round-about: you would set the number 'n' on the switches,
then run dsw, and it found the name of file #n in the current directory,
and then created a core dump which when executed, would delete that file.
Sheesh. It's not like there wasn't an unlink() system call; why not just
unlink it? Well, I guess the idea is that you would examine the core file
and make sure it was deleting the right file. But there are still obvious
trivial improvements. And why not take the number in argv[1]?
Of course this was well before it was possible to write something like
"rm `command`".
It is interesting that the 1971(?) man page mentions that really there should
be an option to rm, and then goes on to specify "rm -i *" behaviour as
appropriate for a serious version of this command. That "BUGS" section sure
was a good idea. I still can't believe the sysV people renamed it to "NOTES".
dmr posted the man page of the original dsw program to net.general in 1981,
and it can thus be found at
http://communication.ucsd.edu/A-News/NET.general/81.08.12_research.19_net.g…
(there is an earlier posting about dsw, which is a joke)
dmr also posted the source code to net.unix-wizards in 1984. This is too
late for the "oldnews" archive, so I'll include the article here. I love
his comment that he considered posting instead to net.sources.
Date: 8 Dec 84 09:45:09 GMT
From: dmr(a)research.UUCP
Newsgroups: net.unix-wizards
Subject: dsw: pdp7 memorabilia
I happened to dredge up an old notebook and found a listing
of the PDP-7 version of dsw. Because several people have approached
me recently about reviving a version of PDP-7 Unix as a sort of
paleontological exhibit, and because the subject has been discussed
here, I thought people might be interested in seeing the code.
I first considered net.sources, but decided not to carry whimsy too far.
Dennis Ritchie
Notes:
1) The assembler has Knuth-style temporary labels but no literals.
2) The name of the current directory was evidently ".."
3) Formatting is faithfully reproduced.
4) "sys save" makes a core image.
------
" dsw
lac djmp
dac .-1
oas cla
cma
tad d1
dac t1
sys open; dd; 0
1:
lac d2
sys read; dir; 8
sna
sys exit
lac dir
sna
jmp 1b
isz t1
jmp 1b
wr:
lac d1
sys write; dir+1; 4
lac d1
sys write; o12; 1
sys save
do:
sys unlink; dir+1
sys exit
d1: 1
d2: 2
o12: 012
t1: 0
djmp: jmp do
dd: 056056; 040040; 040040; 040040
dir: .=.+8
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All,
I got this message from Guus Ellenkamp, <Ellenkamp.Guus(a)kpmg.nl>.
Can anybody help?
----- Forwarded message from Ellenkamp, Guus -----
I have a PDP-11/73, but without standard operating system. How to get and
install an operating system? Preferebly RSX11M or UNIX. I have an ST-60
tape. I don't know what disks are in it. It has 2 disks. How to see what
type they are?
Guus
----- End of forwarded message from Ellenkamp, Guus -----
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>From Wilko Bulte <wilko(a)yedi.iaf.nl> Tue Nov 2 16:24:29 1999
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(envelope-from wilko)
From: Wilko Bulte <wilko(a)yedi.iaf.nl>
Message-Id: <199911020624.HAA46208(a)yedi.iaf.nl>
Subject: Re: Info on PDP-11 (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199911020027.LAA59610(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> from Warren Toomey at "Nov 2, 1999 11:27:29 am"
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 07:24:29 +0100 (CET)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au, Ellenkamp.Guus(a)kpmg.nl
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As Warren Toomey wrote ...
I can. I'm close by, both physically and timezone wise.
Guus: please send me email. I'm quite busy this week with NLUUG buth
I'll try to help asap.
Wilko
> All,
> I got this message from Guus Ellenkamp, <Ellenkamp.Guus(a)kpmg.nl>.
> Can anybody help?
>
> ----- Forwarded message from Ellenkamp, Guus -----
> I have a PDP-11/73, but without standard operating system. How to get and
> install an operating system? Preferebly RSX11M or UNIX. I have an ST-60
> tape. I don't know what disks are in it. It has 2 disks. How to see what
> type they are?
>
> Guus
> ----- End of forwarded message from Ellenkamp, Guus -----
>
--
| / o / / _ Arnhem, The Netherlands - Powered by FreeBSD -
|/|/ / / /( (_) Bulte WWW : http://www.tcja.nlhttp://www.freebsd.org
Greg Lehey wondered about the date in
> There's a binary of dc from either 1st or 2nd Edition in the PUPS Archive:
>
> -r---wxrw- 0/0 6846 Apr 14 06:50 1973 bin/dc
1973 is indeed post-Second-Edition. But it's not the right date; just as
the permission flags were different in the early years, so was the date
representation. Here are some gleanings from old manuals that tell the
story.
The relatively recent ls or tar or whatnot that printed the line above
presumably interpreted the date as if it were in modern form: seconds since
1 Jan 1970 UTC. So the raw number stored in the i-node was probably about
105000000 decimal (30 Apr 1973 in my time zone), or about 1200 days into the
epoch.
But the file system described in the First Edition manual takes the date
as a count of clock ticks since 1 Jan 1971. The clock ticked at 60Hz,
so the date is really about 1200/60 = 20 days into the epoch; if this file
came from a 1e file system, it was written on 21 Jan 1971.
The trouble with keeping a 60Hz clock in a 32-bit number is that it takes just
a couple of years before it overflows. A band-aid had been stuck on by the time
the Third Edition manual was printed: the base date changed to 1 Jan 1972. So
maybe bin/dc was written on 21 Jan 1972 instead. There's no way to tell just
from the bits in the i-node.
The modern time format (1-second resolution) appeared in the Fourth Edition manual.
It is probably not a coincidence that the file system format changed a lot at
the same time; groups appeared, permission modes changed to approximately their
current form, directory entries changed, and so on.
The 60Hz scheme seems to have come from the PDP-7, on which it made more sense;
the -7 has 36-bit words, so a 60Hz counter lasts 16 times longer. I bet the
base date changed at least once between the original PDP-7 system and the PDP-11
as well, since 1 Jan 1971 seems too recent for the PDP-7 system.
See http://www.cita.utoronto.ca/~norman/old-unix/old-fs.html for many more such
grotty details, collected in an insomniac night with a stack of old manuals some
months ago.
Norman Wilson
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: Re: dc and date numerology
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In article by norman(a)nose.cita.utoronto.ca:
> Greg Lehey wondered about the date in
> > -r---wxrw- 0/0 6846 Apr 14 06:50 1973 bin/dc
>
> 1973 is indeed post-Second-Edition. But it's not the right date; just as
> the permission flags were different in the early years, so was the date
> representation. Here are some gleanings from old manuals that tell the
> story.
[ much omitted ]
Norman details the fact that early Unixes stored time in 60ths of a second,
i.e the normal clock tick, and as such, a 32-bit integer overflows in
around 2.5 years.
However, I think Norman is not exactly right when he said that the
tar archive was reinterpreting this 1/60 sec time in units of seconds.
Dennis Ritchie, with help from Keith Bostic and a DECtape drive, managed to
retrieve these files from an old DECtape. These old files were stored in
tap(1) archive format.
Dennis wrote a program to read in the tap(1) format archives and extract
their contents while trying to maintain the _correct_ permissions and
timestamps. Here is his email describing this:
The tapes were written in either the 'tap' or 'tp' format, which
are similar in that they have a directory of up to 192 entries at
the start with names and other information including the size and
tape address of the files. 'tp' was the later format, and was in
use by November 1973, the date of the 4th edition manual. With
`tap', the times associated with the files were recorded in pre-modern
units: sixtieths of a second, from an origin that changed. The
first three editions of the manual had BUGS sections noting that
32 bits can represent only about 2.5 years in this unit, and this
implied continuing crises as the time overflowed.
I believe that the change to use seconds for Unix time took place
along with the change to the C version of the operating system,
which occurred about the end of the summer of 1973, and also that
the change from `tap' to `tp' took place at the same time. (This
is consistent with the dates of the 3rd and 4th edition manuals).
Thus the dates recorded with the `tp' tapes probably correspond
reliably to the modification dates of the files at the time of
saving them (of course, this gives only a upper bound on their
creation, since they might have been copied or trivially touched
just before saving them).
Recovering the proper dates for the `tap' tapes is less reliable,
because there was at least one change of epoch (from 1971 to 1972)
during the period they could possibly have been produced. I believe
that the 1972 epoch is most likely the correct one for the tapes here.
In other words, Dennis had to guess the epoch when recovering these files.
He got it right with the `nsys' kernel files, because there is enough other
data lying around documenting the kernel rewrite from assembly to C, and
the inclusion of pipes into the kernel.
However, with the s2.tar archive, I think Dennis got the epoch one year out,
i.e everything should be dated a year earlier. The most obvious is that
there are so many 0405 magic a.out files in the archive, and apparently
this a.out format disappeared in the 2nd Edition.
Cheers all,
Warren
In article by Eric Fischer:
> Brian D. Chase writes,
>
> > Just a quick question. Was the `dc' command introduced with one of the
> > BSD releases or did it exist in an earlier version of Unix like the 6th or
> > 7th Edition?
>
> It appears in the First Edition manual, and according to A Quarter
> Century of Unix, it's even older than that.
> eric
There's a binary of dc from either 1st or 2nd Edition in the PUPS Archive:
-r---wxrw- 0/0 6846 Apr 14 06:50 1973 bin/dc
Warren
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>From Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com> Tue Oct 26 10:23:42 1999
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 17:23:42 -0700
From: Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com>
To: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: When did the `dc' command first appear?
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On Tue, 26 Oct 1999, Warren Toomey wrote:
> There's a binary of dc from either 1st or 2nd Edition in the PUPS Archive:
>
> -r---wxrw- 0/0 6846 Apr 14 06:50 1973 bin/dc
Hmmm... did the permissions on files have the same meaning back in 1973 as
they do now? Group and "other" writeable system binaries? Tsk tsk tsk.
Well I suppose just because someone has written the Unix operating system,
it doesn't necessarily mean that they're a very good Unix sysadmin.
-brian.
--- Brian Chase | bdc(a)world.std.com | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ -----
"Captain, we're experiencing a high rate of packet collisions!" -- K.
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: Re: When did the `dc' command first appear?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.04.9910251718360.7714-100000(a)world.std.com> from Brian D Chase at "Oct 25, 1999 5:23:42 pm"
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In article by Brian D Chase:
> On Tue, 26 Oct 1999, Warren Toomey wrote:
>
> > There's a binary of dc from either 1st or 2nd Edition in the PUPS Archive:
> >
> > -r---wxrw- 0/0 6846 Apr 14 06:50 1973 bin/dc
>
> Hmmm... did the permissions on files have the same meaning back in 1973 as
> they do now? Group and "other" writeable system binaries? Tsk tsk tsk.
>
> Well I suppose just because someone has written the Unix operating system,
> it doesn't necessarily mean that they're a very good Unix sysadmin.
No, the perms have got stuffed up in conversion from 1st Ed permissions
to the tar archive. 1st Edition had no groups, and only had perms
01 write for other
02 read for other
04 write for owner [ all octal values ]
10 read for owner
20 executable
40 set-UID
Warren
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>From Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> Tue Oct 26 10:33:59 1999
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On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Brian D Chase wrote:
> > -r---wxrw- 0/0 6846 Apr 14 06:50 1973 bin/dc
>
> Hmmm... did the permissions on files have the same meaning back in 1973 as
> they do now? Group and "other" writeable system binaries? Tsk tsk tsk.
I don't believe the concept of group permissions existed then...
> Well I suppose just because someone has written the Unix operating system,
> it doesn't necessarily mean that they're a very good Unix sysadmin.
On the other hand, people actually trusted each other, because you
all worked with each other, and it was common for someone to write a
utility and stick it on the system. Hint: /usr wasn't called that for
no reason...
--
Dave Horsfall VK2KFU dave(a)geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: +61 2 9978-7422
Geac Computers P/L (FGH Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia
