TUHS

tuhs@tuhs.org

6 participants
6532 discussions

Early file system layouts (was: Splitting / and /usr)

by norman＠nose.cs.utoronto.ca

Warren is right that even the First Edition manual says that init mounts /usr, implying that /usr was a distinct file system even that early. It seems to me that the original question Greg forwarded from the NetBSD list was also after when /usr/bin appeared, which isn't necessarily the same date. A possible answer from old manuals: - Second Edition sh(I) (dated 3/15/72): If the first argument is the name of an executable file, it is invoked; otherwise the string "/bin/" is prepended to the argument. (In this way the standard commands, which reside in "/bin", are found.) If the "/bin" file exists, but is not executable, it is used by the shell as a command file. - Third Edition sh(I) (dated 1/15/73): If the first argument is the name of an executable file, it is invoked; otherwise the string "/bin/" is prepended to the argument. (In this way most standard commands, which reside in "/bin", are found.) If no such command is found, the string "/usr" is further prepended (to give "/usr/bin/command") and another attempt is made to execute the resulting file. (Certain "overflow" commands live in "/usr/bin".) If the "/usr/bin" file exists, but is not executable, it is used by the shell as a command file. Notice the odd detail that non-executable files in /bin (early on) or /usr/bin (later) get special treatment. Does this mean that shell scripts that weren't in /usr/bin had to be invoked explicitly via `sh script' instead of just `script'? Even deeper historic trivia: it occurred to me to check the fragments of the PDP-7 system I have on paper to see whether /usr existed then. I was quickly reminded that it almost certainly didn't because subdirectories weren't really used then; there were no pathnames in that system. (You could open only files in the working directory, though you could link from another directory.) When asked to invoke `x', the shell first tried to open `x', then to link `x' from directory `system' and open the result. (Presumably it remembered to remove the needless link after the open, but I'm not quite certain; the old paper copy is missing a few lines just there.) So even the name `bin' doesn't date back quite to the beginning. Norman Wilson Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA39649 for pups-liszt; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:10:53 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue Apr 18 10:10:41 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA39645 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:10:42 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id KAA42226 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:10:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200004180010.KAA42226(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Early file system layouts In-Reply-To: <200004172217.IAA38973(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> from "norman(a)nose.cs.utoronto.ca" at "Apr 16, 2000 2:43:14 pm" To: Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:10:41 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by norman(a)nose.cs.utoronto.ca: > - Second Edition sh(I) (dated 3/15/72): > If the first argument is the name of an executable file, > it is invoked; otherwise the string "/bin/" is prepended > to the argument. (In this way the standard commands, > which reside in "/bin", are found.) If the "/bin" file > exists, but is not executable, it is used by the shell > as a command file. > Notice the odd detail that non-executable files in /bin (early on) > or /usr/bin (later) get special treatment. Does this mean that > shell scripts that weren't in /usr/bin had to be invoked explicitly > via `sh script' instead of just `script'? Can't tell, we don't have the source code. In the Nsys kernel (dated just before the 4th Edition), files must have the execute bit on or they can't be exec(2)d. Warren

25 years, 2 months

Help running 2.11 on Supnik 2.3d

by lars brinkhoff

I've tried running the image in /Boot_Images/2.11_on_rl02 on Supnik's emulator version 2.3d, but the root filsystem seems corrupted, with many binaries being unexecutable, bad block error messages, etc. Does anyone know how to successfully boot this image? If this is the wrong place for this kind of question, or if there's a FAQ on this, then please point me in the right direction. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA92766 for pups-liszt; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 08:33:33 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Apr 13 08:33:16 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA92762 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 08:33:27 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id IAA06177; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 08:33:16 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200004122233.IAA06177(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Help running 2.11 on Supnik 2.3d In-Reply-To: <85ln2jsewz.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> from lars brinkhoff at "Apr 12, 2000 2: 5:16 pm" To: lars(a)nocrew.org (lars brinkhoff) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 08:33:16 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by lars brinkhoff: > I've tried running the image in /Boot_Images/2.11_on_rl02 [from the PUPS > Archive] on Supnik's emulator version 2.3d, but the root filsystem seems > corrupted, with many binaries being unexecutable, bad block > error messages, etc. > > Does anyone know how to successfully boot this image? Hmm, if I get a chance I'll try it here. Has anybody used this image successfully? Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA94344 for pups-liszt; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 13:23:56 +1000 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu Apr 13 13:22:56 2000 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA94340 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 13:23:38 +1000 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA16968; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 20:22:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 20:22:56 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200004130322.UAA16968(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: lars(a)nocrew.org, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Help running 2.11 on Supnik 2.3d Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi -- > From: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> > I've tried running the image in /Boot_Images/2.11_on_rl02 on > Supnik's emulator version 2.3d, but the root filsystem seems > corrupted, with many binaries being unexecutable, bad block error messages, > etc. > > Does anyone know how to successfully boot this image? Yes. The problem is not with the images (although the whole "on rl02" is a pain - you're far better off using the "xp" or large disk support that Bob added). > If this is the wrong place for this kind of question, or if > there's a FAQ on this, then please point me in the right direction. This is a very good place to ask this type of question. And now the moment you've been waiting for: "the Answer" ;) 2.11BSD is *very* upset at having to run in 256kb of memory. since the kernel plus buffer cache (and other data structures) can easily exceed 200kb there is not enough memory left over to run a program. Programs such as 'fsck' are fairly large split I/D programs and won't fit in the remaining ~56kb or so. The quick fix to the problem is adding the line: set cpu 2048K to the config file before running the simulator. That will give the simulated PDP-11 2Mb of memory which is a real nice size. Oh, if memory is a concern on the system then "set cpu 1024K" will work well. Since there's no networking involved 1Mb will be quite adequate. If you were using "P11" (the Begemot emulator) and had the full IP/TCP stack, etc then the kernel+networking+buffers can reach close to 400Kb and you might want to use 2Mb for the memory size. You might also look into the latest version (2.5) of the Begemot emulator. The two key advantages of P11 are: 1) a emulated DEQNA so you can place the PDP11 on a network, 2) It keeps _good_ time (version 2.4 and earlier had severe timeskew when running compute bound programs, 2.5 is awesomely better and within range of "ntp" to keep the clock correct). P11 also supports (as does Bob Supnik's simulator) large disks such as the RP06 which is much nicer than 4 RL02s and a batch of RK05s. Hmmm, I'm not sure which rev level of 2.11BSD is in the "on_rl02" images - I hope it has the "bounce buffer support" to handle the 18bit RK controller on a 22bit bus... If the RK images show corrupt or the kernel crashes then I would suspect the kernel is a bit too old. Unpack the "211bsd_on_rl02" images from the .gz images, edit the "script" file to increase the system memory and you should be all set to go. Steven Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA94566 for pups-liszt; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 14:56:35 +1000 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Thu Apr 13 14:56:23 2000 Received: from freebie.lemis.com (root(a)freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA94562 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 14:56:26 +1000 (EST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id OAA45453 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 14:26:23 +0930 (CST) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 14:26:23 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: UNIX Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Early file system layouts (was: Splitting / and /usr) Message-ID: <20000413142623.A45386(a)freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Saw this on a NetBSD list. Greg ----- Forwarded message from "Alistair G. Crooks" <agc(a)ftp.netbsd.org> ----- > Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 01:31:41 -0700 (PDT) > To: kre(a)munnari.oz.au > Cc: current-users(a)netbsd.org > Precedence: list > Delivered-To: current-users(a)netbsd.org > > Robert, > > [Off topic warning] > >>> Did you not know that /usr was split off only because the disks were too >>> small to keep everything on one way back in the early days >> >> That's how I heard it too - but this split must have occurred way back >> very early in the days before anyone outside Bell Labs had ever heard of >> unix (as I remember it, even the CACM paper had /usr in it). > > I believe that the topic of splitting / and /usr was discussed > at the Glasgow University meeting of the UKUUG, which was around > 1978, if my memory serves me well. As the first copy of V5 and V6 > came out of the labs in the 1975/1976 timeframe, I suspect it came > later. I don't have my copy of the CACM paper to hand, so I can't > check dates. > > Whilst I attented the University there at that time, I didn't attend > the conference - more fool me. > > I suspect that Alistair Kilgour or Zdravko Podolski could provide > more information, or any of the Bell Labs alumni who were there. > > agc ----- End forwarded message ----- ----- Forwarded message from Robert Elz <kre(a)munnari.OZ.AU> ----- > To: "Alistair G. Crooks" <agc(a)ftp.netbsd.org> > Cc: current-users(a)netbsd.org > Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 10:36:15 +1000 > Precedence: list > Delivered-To: current-users(a)netbsd.org > > Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 01:31:41 -0700 (PDT) > From: "Alistair G. Crooks" <agc(a)ftp.netbsd.org> > Message-ID: <200004120831.BAA06860(a)nbftp.isc.org> > >> [Off topic warning] > > Ditto - but recording history sometimes has its uses... > >> I believe that the topic of splitting / and /usr was discussed >> at the Glasgow University meeting of the UKUUG, which was around >> 1978, > > It was definitely done before that. > > Unfortunately, I can't find a 5th edition manual (or even a reprinted > facsimilie thereof at the minute), but the 6th edition manual for sh(1) > says ... > > If the first argument [ on a command line ] is the name of an > executable file, it is invoked; otherwise the string `/bin' is > prepended to the argument. (In this way most standard commands, > which reside in `/bin', are found.) If no such command is found, > the string `/usr' is further prepended (to give `/usr/bin/command') > and another attempt is made to execute the resulting file. (Certain > lesser-used commands live in `/usr/bin'.) > > The sixth edition manual is dated May 75, but the date on the sh man page > is 5/15/74 (which I interpret as the 15th of May, 1974). > > For those who are new to unix (within the last 20 years) note that there > was no notion of a user settable path... > >> I don't have my copy of the CACM paper to hand, so I can't >> check dates. > > I have checked now, and it says nothing either way, so that is no help. > Kernighan's "Unix for Beginners" (of a generally similar vintage) gives > a diagrammatic view of the filesystem tree, in which all that exists in > /usr are user directories, though that is not really conclusive. > >> I suspect that Alistair Kilgour or Zdravko Podolski could provide >> more information, or any of the Bell Labs alumni who were there. > > I will see if Dennis will tell me... > > kre > ----- End forwarded message ----- ----- Forwarded message from Robert Elz <kre(a)munnari.OZ.AU> ----- > To: "Alistair G. Crooks" <agc(a)ftp.netbsd.org>, current-users(a)netbsd.org > Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 12:45:05 +1000 > Precedence: list > Delivered-To: current-users(a)netbsd.org > > Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 10:36:15 +1000 > From: Robert Elz <kre(a)munnari.OZ.AU> > Message-ID: <353.955586175(a)munnari.OZ.AU> > >> I will see if Dennis will tell me... > > He did, ... > > But early; definitely by the time of the "nsys" system, the > first C version, which was 1973. > > And ... > > The point of /usr/bin was really to find a place to put > those binaries. (The .5MB disk was pretty cramped even > with with two of them, as we later had). > > which (if we ever needed it) is confirmation or the original reason... > > kre > ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA94737 for pups-liszt; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 15:32:38 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Apr 13 15:32:02 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA94732 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 15:32:26 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id PAA08492; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 15:32:02 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200004130532.PAA08492(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Early file system layouts (/ and /usr split) In-Reply-To: <20000413142623.A45386(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Apr 13, 2000 2:26:23 pm" To: grog(a)lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 15:32:02 +1000 (EST) Cc: current-users(a)netbsd.org Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk [ This came to me from a NetBSD mailing list, via Greg Lehey ] Someone said..... > >>> Did you not know that /usr was split off only because the disks were too > >>> small to keep everything on one way back in the early days Someone else said.... > > I believe that the topic of splitting / and /usr was discussed > > at the Glasgow University meeting of the UKUUG, which was around > > 1978, if my memory serves me well. As the first copy of V5 and V6 > > came out of the labs in the 1975/1976 timeframe, I suspect it came > > later. I don't have my copy of the CACM paper to hand, so I can't > > check dates. The answer is: UNIX had / and /usr split by at least the time of the July 1974 CACM paper ``The UNIX Time-sharing system''. Here is the evidence: At http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS/Images/ken-and-den.txt and http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS/Images/ken-and-den.jpg you will find a picture of Ken and Dennis at the PDP-11/20 around 1972. The commentary in the text file from John Holden tell us that the disk drives are RF-11 and RK03 drives. RF-11 drives were fixed head drives with 512K of storage with fast access. RK03s and RK05s could store 2M, but were not as fast as RF-11s. The source code to (nearly) 3rd Edition UNIX, dated August 31, 1973, only has drivers for two disks, RF-11s and RK05s. This source code is in the PUPS Archive, http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS. You need a Unix src license. Now, the July 1974 CACM paper says this: In our installation, for example, the root directory resides on the fixed-head disk, and the large disk drive, which contains user's files, is mounted by the system initialization program; .... To me, this strongly indicates that / and /usr were split by at least July 1974, if not the earlier date of August 1973. Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA94865 for pups-liszt; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 15:50:31 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Apr 13 15:50:17 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA94861 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 15:50:24 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id PAA08605; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 15:50:17 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200004130550.PAA08605(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Early file system layouts (/ and /usr split) In-Reply-To: <200004130532.PAA08492(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> from Warren Toomey at "Apr 13, 2000 3:32: 2 pm" To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 15:50:17 +1000 (EST) Cc: grog(a)lemis.com, current-users(a)netbsd.org Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Warren Toomey: > The answer is: UNIX had / and /usr split by at least the time of the > July 1974 CACM paper ``The UNIX Time-sharing system''. I just found some more evidence. The 2nd Edition UNIX manual is dated June 1972, but the actual man pages have their date of last modification. The manual for init(7), dated 15th June 1972, says: [ If console switches are set to 173030, a shell is attached to the console immediately, i.e single-user mode ] Otherwise, init does some housekeeping: the mode of each DECtape file is changed to [read-write] (in case the system crashed during a tap command); directory /usr is mounted on the RK0 disk; directory /sys is mounted on the RK1 disk. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA94952 for pups-liszt; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 15:59:25 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Apr 13 15:59:06 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA94946 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 15:59:16 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id PAA08671; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 15:59:06 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200004130559.PAA08671(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Early file system layouts (/ and /usr split) In-Reply-To: <200004130550.PAA08605(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> from Warren Toomey at "Apr 13, 2000 3:50:17 pm" To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 15:59:06 +1000 (EST) Cc: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au, grog(a)lemis.com, current-users(a)netbsd.org Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Warren Toomey: > In article by Warren Toomey: > > The answer is: UNIX had / and /usr split by at least the time of the > > July 1974 CACM paper ``The UNIX Time-sharing system''. > > I just found some more evidence. And more, from the 1st Edition init(7) man page dated 3rd November, 1971. Directory usr is assigned via sys mount as resident on the RK disk. and sys mount means the mount(2) system call. Cheers, Warren

25 years, 2 months

Some interesting old UNIX news

by Warren Toomey

Hi all, I'd just like to welcome the new people to the PUPS list. This is probably the first e-mail in the list for a few weeks. I've been pretty busy at work, but there is some interesting news on the old UNIX front. + SCO has now sold over 220 old Unix licenses, and I have something like 120 license holders with access to the on-line PUPS Archive. We've lost count of the number of CDs produced by the PUPS Volunteers (thanks guys!) + I've got some Y2K patches for Unix coming in from Alexey Chupahin in Russia. Once I get them sorted out, they will be put into the archive. + The baton of old Unix at SCO has been passed from Dion Johnson to David Eyes and now to Paul Kaspian, their Open Source Marketing Manager. There will be some changes to the Ancient UNIX license. If you haven't bought a license, I would recommend NOT sending in any money just yet. This will be good news, but I'm waiting on SCO to announce the details. I'll keep you all informed as usual. Cheers, Warren P.S the Minix operating system has been released under a BSD license. Anybody want to port it to the PDP-11 family?

25 years, 2 months

11/23

by Tim Bradshaw

Someone is offering me an 11/23 with (I think) 2 small disks (RL-something) which are meant to bbe 10Mb each (maybe 5?) Can someone tell me what Unices this will run? It has no media other than the disks (it has, I think, RT-11), but I've read about people getting stuff into things down a serial line -- how practical is that? Thanks --tim

25 years, 3 months

DEC documentation preservation [RE: VS3100m76 ethernet problem (fwd)]

by Brian Chase

I saw the following on the linux-vax list. It seems to me it might be worthwhile for us to get more info on the scope of the project, its terms, and to see if we can collectively contribute to it. We'd all benefit from having better access to old DEC documentation. -brian. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 16:33:44 -0500 (EST) >From: quayle(a)infinet.com Reply-To: linux-vax(a)mithra.physics.montana.edu To: linux-vax(a)mithra.physics.montana.edu Subject: RE: VS3100m76 ethernet problem > > I took out the Owners manual that I forgot to send you, but it > > states that 0000.0001 is normal, and if the last digit is anything > > else it should/could still work normaly. Every error in the Error Code > > table is 0000.x00y (for example: 0000.600C Loopback failed). The Dallas/Fort Worth DECUS local users group is scanning all Digital documentation, no matter how old. You might contact them (denton(a)dsserv.com or wisniewski(a)dwlug.decus.org) to see if they'd like to copy your manuals. You get a free copy of everything they've scanned when they finish.

25 years, 4 months

copies of old AT&T licenses

by Eugene Kim

I'm looking for copies of old AT&T licenses for a book I'm writing on the history of free software. I'm most interested in the source licenses to UNIX V6 and V7 -- I'd like to examine the wording difference between the two -- but I'd be interested in obtaining copies of licenses for all versions, both source and binary. If anyone has copies they'd be willing to make available to me, or if anyone knows where I can get copies, I'd really appreciate the information. Thanks! -Eugene -- +=== Eugene Eric Kim ===== eekim(a)eekim.com ===== http://www.eekim.com/ ===+ | "Writer's block is a fancy term made up by whiners so they | +===== can have an excuse to drink alcohol." --Steve Martin ===========+

25 years, 4 months

Why upper case configuration file names in BSD?

by Greg Lehey

I've just been asked a rather unusual question: when you build a BSD kernel, the name of the configuration file is traditionally upper case. Does anybody have insight as to why this should be? Greg -- Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA70030 for pups-liszt; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 09:38:03 +1100 (EST) >From Peter Chubb <peterc(a)aurema.com> Fri Feb 4 08:37:42 2000 Received: from smtp.sw.oz.au (firewall-user(a)smtp.sw.oz.au [203.31.96.1]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA70021 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 09:37:54 +1100 (EST) Received: (from peterc@localhost) by smtp.sw.oz.au (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id JAA19456; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 09:37:42 +1100 (EST) From: Peter Chubb <peterc(a)aurema.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14490.822.632534.491258(a)swag.sw.oz.au> Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 09:37:42 +1100 (EST) To: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Cc: UNIX Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>, FreeBSD Chat <chat(a)FreeBSD.ORG> Subject: Re: Why upper case configuration file names in BSD? In-Reply-To: <20000204084928.E26290(a)freebie.lemis.com> References: <20000204084928.E26290(a)freebie.lemis.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.71 under 21.1 "Gimme a 6 and 5!" XEmacs Lucid (patch 2) Comments: Hyperbole mail buttons accepted, v04.023. Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Greg" == Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> writes: Greg> I've just been asked a rather unusual question: when you build a BSD Greg> kernel, the name of the configuration file is traditionally upper Greg> case. Does anybody have insight as to why this should be? The same reason that Makefile has an upper-case first letter -- so it appears early in an ls listing, rather than in the middle of a big long list. Peter C Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA70141 for pups-liszt; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 09:47:14 +1100 (EST)

25 years, 5 months

Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8

by Terry Lambert

> Also, the white paper on BeOS claims that with all the new advances in > hardware, modern OS's have too many layers, which they call 'silt', to > allow them to use the hardware effectively. They argue that only > starting from scratch allows full use of modern technology, including > multimedia advances. How can FreeBSD keep up? We don't have kernel > threading and SMP support is still in the works, and most BSD features > are 'add-ons'. Should this be a concern for the future? Unlike BeOS, FreeBSD is multiuser, and supports the concept of credentials. I was asked to do some work porting some things, including NFS, SMB, NetWare, and filesystem support to BeOS, but it has an intrinsic lack of a security model, which can not be easily overcome. It is not suitable as a server OS. Terry Lambert terry(a)lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA60331 for pups-liszt; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 01:17:36 +1100 (EST) >From Arno Griffioen <arno(a)usn.nl> Thu Feb 3 00:17:11 2000 Received: from superluminal.usn.nl (root(a)superluminal.usn.nl [194.183.103.23]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA60327 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 01:17:26 +1100 (EST) Received: (from arno@localhost) by superluminal.usn.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id PAA13527 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 15:17:12 +0100 From: Arno Griffioen <arno(a)usn.nl> Message-Id: <200002021417.PAA13527(a)superluminal.usn.nl> Subject: Qbus bootstrap board/ROMS? To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 15:17:11 +0100 (CET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL48 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Any suggestions as to where I can get my hands on boot ROM's (or data files. I have access to an EPROM programmer) for use with an 11/73? A boot-ROM Qbus card would be nice too.. I'm trying to build up a new 11/73 (heh.. 'new' ;-) with an ex-uVAX BA213 chassis. (the original KA650 is in storage as a spare for my running machine) I have most of the stuff I need (anybody have a spare 4 Mbyte QBUS card??) and can re-use most of the QBUS cards from the uVAX (with an Emulex UC07 SCSI card! yeah!), but I don't have any boot ROM's or a ROM-card for the 11/73. The CPU card is a dual-wide version, so no on-board ROM's :-( So far my searches have turned up little or nothing in this area, but I hope that the combined brain-power here knows some addresses I can try.. Thanx! Bye, Arno, -- PSINetworks Europe Fax: +31-23-5699841 | One disk to rule them all, Siriusdreef 34 Tel: +31-23-5699840 | One disk to bind them, 2132WT Hoofddorp+--------------------------------+ One disk to hold the files The Netherlands | * Musical Interlude * | And in the darkness grind 'em ----------------+--------------------------------+------------------------------ We say Retribution, We say Vengeance is bliss, We say Revolution, With a Cast-Iron fist! (Megadeth, 'The Disintegrators') -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA60539 for pups-liszt; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 01:45:30 +1100 (EST) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Thu Feb 3 00:45:17 2000 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA60535 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 01:45:22 +1100 (EST) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 9:45:17 -0500 Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 9:45:17 -0500 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU Message-Id: <000202094517.25600527(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: Qbus bootstrap board/ROMS? Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >Any suggestions as to where I can get my hands on boot ROM's (or >data files. I have access to an EPROM programmer) for use with an 11/73? >A boot-ROM Qbus card would be nice too.. [Later comment indicates a KDJ11-A...] If you don't mind a toggle-in (err, um, ODT-in) bootstrap, you can find a selection (some of them with disassemblies) at http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/ just click on "Bootstraps". If you really insist on rolling your own from scratch, you can burn these (modified if you want) into your own EPROM's. Chances are that if you find a Q-bus card that takes EPROM's it will already have a boot ROM in it. For more on what's out there, read Micronote #3 "Compatible Bootstraps for the LSI-11/73" and Micronote #15 "Q-Bus Hardware Bootstraps". If you don't have a printed set of Micronotes handy, you can click on the above link at metalab and then click on the Micronote index. >I have most of the stuff I need (anybody have a spare 4 Mbyte QBUS card??) and >can re-use most of the QBUS cards from the uVAX (with an Emulex UC07 >SCSI card! yeah!), but I don't have any boot ROM's or a ROM-card >for the 11/73. The UC07 has an onboard PDP-11 bootstrap you can enable. Why not just turn it on? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

25 years, 5 months

Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8

by Warren Toomey

In article by Mirian Crzig Lennox: > Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> writes: > > > > The conditions look rather like the SCO ancient UNIX licences, but > > it's *cheaper* ($75, which includes deliverables from Sun). Warren, > > is this ammunition to lobby SCO to drop the prices of Ancient UNIX > > licenses? > > After looking at the site, it seems as though Sun is trying to prevent > licence holders from sharing code with other licence holders. If this > is true, it would certainly make the Solaris licence less desirable to > hobbyists than the ancient UNIX licence, unfortunately. > --Mirian Currently out of town. Still, it might be worth asking SCO for a discount! Does the license cover all of Solaris, or just the kernel?? Cheers, Warren

25 years, 5 months

Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8

by emanuel stiebler

----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathon McKitrick <jcm(a)dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> To: John Rosenberg <jcrosenberg(a)earthlink.net> Cc: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>; Joerg B. Micheel <joerg(a)begemot.org>; Steven M. Schultz <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>; <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; FreeBSD Chat <chat(a)freebsd.org> Sent: Friday, January 28, 2000 07:24 Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 > tough sell. Several guys i know say the majority of new unix installs > are Linux with few BSD. They say the only BSD users that are growing > are ISPs. I think, that linux is somehow an entry in the unix world ;-) After a while you notice, that *BSD is cleaner & more stable. > Also, the white paper on BeOS claims that with all the new advances in > hardware, modern OS's have too many layers, which they call 'silt', to > allow them to use the hardware effectively. Look what happened to linux & *BSD in the last months/years. They adapting new technologies very fast ... > They argue that only > starting from scratch allows full use of modern technology, including > multimedia advances. How can FreeBSD keep up? We don't have kernel > threading and SMP support is still in the works, and most BSD features > are 'add-ons'. Should this be a concern for the future? Don't be "concerned", build in the stuff you're missing ;-) cheers, emanuel

25 years, 5 months

Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8

by John Rosenberg

I have written several device drivers (e.g., disk, DSP, DAT) for Solaris. It is the slowest OS since Multix. Solaris is buggy, albeit pretty darned stable. Interesting OS, but I'd stick by BSD (from a systems programmer type). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathon McKitrick" <jcm(a)dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> To: "Greg Lehey" <grog(a)lemis.com> Cc: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org>; "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>; <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; "FreeBSD Chat" <chat(a)freebsd.org> Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 8:02 AM Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 > > Message too convoluted to tell who actually wrote this....but i > believe Greg wrote the second group of lines.... > > >> That would make quite an interesting test. How much does > >> ftp.cdrom.com gain by running FreeBSD instead of Solaris ? > > > >Good question. My guess is that Solaris 2 just couldn't handle that > >many connections, but it compete reasonably well with fewer > >connections (say 1000). I'll copy the FreeBSD chat people and see > >what they think. > > Interestingly, i noticed recently that the response time on usa.net > seemed much slower. It appears consistently so, either by ppp > connection or by network/T1 line. A few months ago, netcraft showed > that they were running FreeBSD. Guess what they are running > now? Yup... SOlaris. I dropped them a line saying i noticed the speed > difference. > > -=> jm <=- > > "I've done questionable things, also extraordinary things.... > Revel in your time!" > > Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA28243 for pups-liszt; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 01:24:36 +1100 (EST) >From "Jonathon McKitrick" <jcm(a)dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Sat Jan 29 00:24:19 2000 Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA28238 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 01:24:25 +1100 (EST) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12ECJw-000Fek-00; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:24:20 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA65406; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:24:19 GMT (envelope-from jcm(a)dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:24:19 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick <jcm(a)dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> To: John Rosenberg <jcrosenberg(a)earthlink.net> cc: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>, "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org>, "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, FreeBSD Chat <chat(a)freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 In-Reply-To: <002001bf6996$34389ec0$b439bfa8@home> Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0001281418330.65317-100000(a)dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk I'm a little concerned where all this leaves FreeBSD. If Solaris goes open source, or something similar, and tries to compete with w2k, plus linux is out there growing, and BeOS will be free soon.... FreeBSD might be a tough sell. Several guys i know say the majority of new unix installs are Linux with few BSD. They say the only BSD users that are growing are ISPs. Does anyone have any stats on how fast we are growing on the desktop, or in general? Also, the white paper on BeOS claims that with all the new advances in hardware, modern OS's have too many layers, which they call 'silt', to allow them to use the hardware effectively. They argue that only starting from scratch allows full use of modern technology, including multimedia advances. How can FreeBSD keep up? We don't have kernel threading and SMP support is still in the works, and most BSD features are 'add-ons'. Should this be a concern for the future? -=> jm <=- "Do not taunt the Happy Fun Ball." Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA28648 for pups-liszt; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 02:11:14 +1100 (EST) >From "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> Sat Jan 29 01:14:48 2000 Received: from mail08.gte-hosting.net ([209.238.3.57]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA28644 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 02:11:03 +1100 (EST) Received: from 209.238.157.134 (209.238.157.134) by mail08.gte-hosting.net (RS ver 1.0.53) with SMTP id 02704289; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 10:10:37 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <004e01bf69a2$6c768bb0$5d01a8c0@p2350> From: "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> To: "Jonathon McKitrick" <jcm(a)dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Cc: <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> References: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0001281418330.65317-100000(a)dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 08:14:48 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Loop-Detect: 1 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathon McKitrick <jcm(a)dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> To: John Rosenberg <jcrosenberg(a)earthlink.net> Cc: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>; Joerg B. Micheel <joerg(a)begemot.org>; Steven M. Schultz <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>; <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; FreeBSD Chat <chat(a)freebsd.org> Sent: Friday, January 28, 2000 07:24 Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 > > I'm a little concerned where all this leaves FreeBSD. If Solaris goes > open source, or something similar, and tries to compete with w2k, plus > linux is out there growing, and BeOS will be free soon.... FreeBSD might be a > tough sell. Several guys i know say the majority of new unix installs > are Linux with few BSD. They say the only BSD users that are growing > are ISPs. Does anyone have any stats on how fast we are > growing on the desktop, or in general? > > Also, the white paper on BeOS claims that with all the new advances in > hardware, modern OS's have too many layers, which they call 'silt', to > allow them to use the hardware effectively. They argue that only > starting from scratch allows full use of modern technology, including > multimedia advances. How can FreeBSD keep up? We don't have kernel > threading and SMP support is still in the works, and most BSD features > are 'add-ons'. Should this be a concern for the future? > > -=> jm <=- > > "Do not taunt the Happy Fun Ball." > > > Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA29086 for pups-liszt; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 03:05:50 +1100 (EST) >From Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)cley.com> Sat Jan 29 02:04:35 2000 Received: from lostwithiel.cley.com (lostwithiel.cley.com [212.240.242.98]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA29081 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 03:05:40 +1100 (EST) Received: (from tfb@localhost) by lostwithiel.cley.com (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) id QAA28344; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:04:36 GMT X-Mailer: 21.1 (patch 8) "Bryce Canyon" XEmacs Lucid (via feedmail 8 I); VM 6.72 under 21.1 (patch 8) "Bryce Canyon" XEmacs Lucid From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)cley.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14481.48659.525262.366785(a)cley.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:04:35 +0000 (GMT) To: Mirian Crzig Lennox <lennox(a)alcita.com> Cc: UNIX Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 In-Reply-To: <m3ln5b5u9p.fsf(a)shelbyville.oai.com> References: <20000127110321.I53307(a)freebie.lemis.com> <m3aels1g6u.fsf(a)shelbyville.oai.com> <20000127145736.Q53307(a)freebie.lemis.com> <m3ln5b5u9p.fsf(a)shelbyville.oai.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk * Mirian Crzig Lennox wrote: > This is in contrast to the Ancient UNIX licence, where it's my > impression that SCO really doesn't care what you do with UNIX so long > as you don't share code with unlicensed people. But that's what you'd expect isn't it? Sun have some reasonable hope of continuing to make money from Solaris, and they obviously would like to retain some control, while SCO is unlikely to be regarding 6th-edition Unix as a big earner... --tim

25 years, 5 months

Sun release source code for Solaris 8

by Greg Lehey

Sun's releasing the source code to Solaris. Take a look at http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/source/index.html for more details. The conditions look rather like the SCO ancient UNIX licences, but it's *cheaper* ($75, which includes deliverables from Sun). Warren, is this ammunition to lobby SCO to drop the prices of Ancient UNIX licenses? Greg -- Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA19237 for pups-liszt; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:08:01 +1100 (EST) >From Mirian Crzig Lennox <lennox(a)alcita.com> Thu Jan 27 11:00:57 2000 Received: from shelbyville.oai.com (IDENT:root@shelbyville.alcita.com [204.57.59.144] (may be forged)) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA19231 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:07:52 +1100 (EST) Received: (from mirian@localhost) by shelbyville.oai.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA03298; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 20:00:59 -0500 From: Mirian Crzig Lennox <lennox(a)alcita.com> To: UNIX Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 References: <20000127110321.I53307(a)freebie.lemis.com> Original-Sender: lennox(a)alcita.com Organization: Alcita Technologies, Inc. Date: 26 Jan 2000 20:00:57 -0500 In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey's message of "Thu, 27 Jan 2000 11:03:21 +1030" Message-ID: <m3aels1g6u.fsf(a)shelbyville.oai.com> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> writes: > > The conditions look rather like the SCO ancient UNIX licences, but > it's *cheaper* ($75, which includes deliverables from Sun). Warren, > is this ammunition to lobby SCO to drop the prices of Ancient UNIX > licenses? After looking at the site, it seems as though Sun is trying to prevent licence holders from sharing code with other licence holders. If this is true, it would certainly make the Solaris licence less desirable to hobbyists than the ancient UNIX licence, unfortunately. --Mirian Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA19344 for pups-liszt; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:21:43 +1100 (EST) >From "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org> Thu Jan 27 11:23:07 2000 Received: from begemot.org (negara.cs.waikato.ac.nz [130.217.248.112]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA19340 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:21:35 +1100 (EST) Received: (from joerg@localhost) by begemot.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) id OAA98715; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:23:07 +1300 (NZDT) (envelope-from joerg) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:23:07 +1300 From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org> To: Mirian Crzig Lennox <lennox(a)alcita.com> Cc: UNIX Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 Message-ID: <20000127142307.A98693(a)begemot.org> References: <20000127110321.I53307(a)freebie.lemis.com> <m3aels1g6u.fsf(a)shelbyville.oai.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: <m3aels1g6u.fsf(a)shelbyville.oai.com>; from Mirian Crzig Lennox on Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 08:00:57PM -0500 Organization: Begemot Computer Associates Operating-System: ... powered by FreeBSD Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 08:00:57PM -0500, Mirian Crzig Lennox wrote: > Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> writes: > > > > The conditions look rather like the SCO ancient UNIX licences, but > > it's *cheaper* ($75, which includes deliverables from Sun). Warren, > > is this ammunition to lobby SCO to drop the prices of Ancient UNIX > > licenses? > > After looking at the site, it seems as though Sun is trying to prevent > licence holders from sharing code with other licence holders. If this > is true, it would certainly make the Solaris licence less desirable to > hobbyists than the ancient UNIX licence, unfortunately. You're right, as long as patches do contain portions of Solaris. Everything that does so has to funnel trough Sun first, this can be done by putting it onto their secure server. The restriction is that you can't share it freely, everything must be visible to Sun. This is slightly different from the original educational license, which allowed sharing with peers bound by the same license conditions. I think, popularity of Solaris might rather be restricted by its performance. I have run Solaris x86 on my desktop for a while for evaluation purposes. I don't think you could tune it easily to become as fast as a regular Linux or *BSD system. Apart from that, it certainly is the dinosaur solution of the decade. Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)begemot.org> Begemot Computer Associates Phone: +64 7 8562148 40 Masters Avenue, Hillcrest Fax: +64 7 8562148 Hamilton, New Zealand Pager: +64 868 38222 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA19380 for pups-liszt; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:25:03 +1100 (EST) >From "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> Thu Jan 27 11:28:28 2000 Received: from mail08.gte-hosting.net ([209.238.3.57]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA19369 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:24:55 +1100 (EST) Received: from 209.238.157.134 (209.238.157.134) by mail08.gte-hosting.net (RS ver 1.0.53) with SMTP id 01034407; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 20:24:29 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <01ea01bf6865$d7844a20$5d01a8c0@p2350> From: "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> To: "Mirian Crzig Lennox" <lennox(a)alcita.com>, "UNIX Heritage Society" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> References: <20000127110321.I53307(a)freebie.lemis.com> <m3aels1g6u.fsf(a)shelbyville.oai.com> Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 18:28:28 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Loop-Detect: 1 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk ---- Original Message ----- From: Mirian Crzig Lennox <lennox(a)alcita.com> To: UNIX Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2000 18:00 Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 > Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> writes: > > > > The conditions look rather like the SCO ancient UNIX licences, but > > it's *cheaper* ($75, which includes deliverables from Sun). Warren, > > is this ammunition to lobby SCO to drop the prices of Ancient UNIX > > licenses? > > After looking at the site, it seems as though Sun is trying to prevent > licence holders from sharing code with other licence holders. If this > is true, it would certainly make the Solaris licence less desirable to > hobbyists than the ancient UNIX licence, unfortunately. They don't "prevent" it, it seems that it is always steered by/at SUN. >From the Webpage: > If you want to make your source code modifications available to other Solaris > source code licensees, you can do so by passing the changes back to Sun, and > Sun will then post them to a secure website that you and other registered users > may access. cheers, emanuel Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA19666 for pups-liszt; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:51:11 +1100 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu Jan 27 11:42:54 2000 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA19660 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:51:02 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id RAA00523 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 17:42:54 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 17:42:54 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200001270142.RAA00523(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org> > I think, popularity of Solaris might rather be restricted by its > performance. I have run Solaris x86 on my desktop for a while for Agreed. I have run Solaris (only up thru 2.6 though) in its "native" environment (Sun hardware) and even there the performance is not anything one would write home about. The difference between SunOS 4.1.x and Solaris 2.x is dramatic in favor on the older leaner system. I have not run Solarix x86 though but have heard from others (before this) that its performance is quite a bit less than a BSD* system. Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA20265 for pups-liszt; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:28:36 +1100 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Thu Jan 27 14:27:36 2000 Received: from freebie.lemis.com (root(a)freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA20254 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:27:45 +1100 (EST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id OAA17254; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:57:36 +1030 (CST) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:57:36 +1030 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: Mirian Crzig Lennox <lennox(a)alcita.com> Cc: UNIX Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 Message-ID: <20000127145736.Q53307(a)freebie.lemis.com> References: <20000127110321.I53307(a)freebie.lemis.com> <m3aels1g6u.fsf(a)shelbyville.oai.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <m3aels1g6u.fsf(a)shelbyville.oai.com> WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Wednesday, 26 January 2000 at 20:00:57 -0500, Mirian Crzig Lennox wrote: > Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> writes: >> >> The conditions look rather like the SCO ancient UNIX licences, but >> it's *cheaper* ($75, which includes deliverables from Sun). Warren, >> is this ammunition to lobby SCO to drop the prices of Ancient UNIX >> licenses? > > After looking at the site, it seems as though Sun is trying to > prevent licence holders from sharing code with other licence > holders. I'm not 100% sure what they mean here. Nobody can stop you distributing software you wrote as long as it doesn't contain proprietary Sun code. You could do that with diffs. > If this is true, it would certainly make the Solaris licence less > desirable to hobbyists than the ancient UNIX licence, unfortunately. I think it is anyway. For hobby purposes, I'd much rather use either 4.4BSD (for modern usage) or one of the old UNIXes. Greg -- Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA20252 for pups-liszt; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:26:27 +1100 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Thu Jan 27 14:26:02 2000 Received: from freebie.lemis.com (root(a)freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA20248 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:26:20 +1100 (EST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id OAA15877; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:56:02 +1030 (CST) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:56:02 +1030 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 Message-ID: <20000127145602.P53307(a)freebie.lemis.com> References: <200001270142.RAA00523(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <200001270142.RAA00523(a)moe.2bsd.com> WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Wednesday, 26 January 2000 at 17:42:54 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote: >> From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org> >> I think, popularity of Solaris might rather be restricted by its >> performance. I have run Solaris x86 on my desktop for a while for > > Agreed. I have run Solaris (only up thru 2.6 though) in its > "native" environment (Sun hardware) and even there the performance > is not anything one would write home about. The difference between > SunOS 4.1.x and Solaris 2.x is dramatic in favor on the older leaner > system. That's my experience too, but it may not be typical. For a large system with a large number of processes (e.g. ftp server) the comparison could be very different. > I have not run Solarix x86 though but have heard from others (before > this) that its performance is quite a bit less than a BSD* system. Ditto. I have a CD somewhere that I just couldn't be bothered installing. Greg -- Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA20540 for pups-liszt; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 16:03:31 +1100 (EST) >From "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org> Thu Jan 27 15:04:06 2000 Received: from begemot.org (negara.cs.waikato.ac.nz [130.217.248.112]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA20536 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 16:03:23 +1100 (EST) Received: (from joerg@localhost) by begemot.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) id SAA00589; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 18:04:07 +1300 (NZDT) (envelope-from joerg) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 18:04:06 +1300 From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org> To: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Cc: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 Message-ID: <20000127180406.A574(a)begemot.org> References: <200001270142.RAA00523(a)moe.2bsd.com> <20000127145602.P53307(a)freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: <20000127145602.P53307(a)freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 02:56:02PM +1030 Organization: Begemot Computer Associates Operating-System: ... powered by FreeBSD Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 02:56:02PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Wednesday, 26 January 2000 at 17:42:54 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > >> From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org> > >> I think, popularity of Solaris might rather be restricted by its > >> performance. I have run Solaris x86 on my desktop for a while for > > > > Agreed. I have run Solaris (only up thru 2.6 though) in its > > "native" environment (Sun hardware) and even there the performance > > is not anything one would write home about. The difference between > > SunOS 4.1.x and Solaris 2.x is dramatic in favor on the older leaner > > system. > > That's my experience too, but it may not be typical. For a large > system with a large number of processes (e.g. ftp server) the > comparison could be very different. That would make quite an interesting test. How much does ftp.cdrom.com gain by running FreeBSD instead of Solaris ? Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)begemot.org> Begemot Computer Associates Phone: +64 7 8562148 40 Masters Avenue, Hillcrest Fax: +64 7 8562148 Hamilton, New Zealand Pager: +64 868 38222 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA20597 for pups-liszt; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 16:09:02 +1100 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Thu Jan 27 15:08:20 2000 Received: from freebie.lemis.com (root(a)freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA20592 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 16:08:38 +1100 (EST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id PAA44566; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:38:21 +1030 (CST) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:38:20 +1030 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org> Cc: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, FreeBSD Chat <chat(a)FreeBSD.ORG> Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 Message-ID: <20000127153820.T53307(a)freebie.lemis.com> References: <200001270142.RAA00523(a)moe.2bsd.com> <20000127145602.P53307(a)freebie.lemis.com> <20000127180406.A574(a)begemot.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <20000127180406.A574(a)begemot.org> WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Thursday, 27 January 2000 at 18:04:06 +1300, Joerg Micheel wrote: > On Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 02:56:02PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Wednesday, 26 January 2000 at 17:42:54 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote: >>>> From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org> >>>> I think, popularity of Solaris might rather be restricted by its >>>> performance. I have run Solaris x86 on my desktop for a while for >>> >>> Agreed. I have run Solaris (only up thru 2.6 though) in its >>> "native" environment (Sun hardware) and even there the performance >>> is not anything one would write home about. The difference between >>> SunOS 4.1.x and Solaris 2.x is dramatic in favor on the older leaner >>> system. >> >> That's my experience too, but it may not be typical. For a large >> system with a large number of processes (e.g. ftp server) the >> comparison could be very different. > > That would make quite an interesting test. How much does > ftp.cdrom.com gain by running FreeBSD instead of Solaris ? Good question. My guess is that Solaris 2 just couldn't handle that many connections, but it compete reasonably well with fewer connections (say 1000). I'll copy the FreeBSD chat people and see what they think. For -chat: Sun have announced their intention to release the source code of Solaris [2.]8. We're discussing what this means. See http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/source/ for more details. Greg -- Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA22317 for pups-liszt; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 00:02:40 +1100 (EST) >From Jonathon McKitrick <jcm(a)dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Thu Jan 27 23:02:23 2000 Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA22313 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 00:02:31 +1100 (EST) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12DoZ6-000JNg-00; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 13:02:24 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA48336; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 13:02:23 GMT (envelope-from jcm(a)dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 13:02:23 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick <jcm(a)dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> To: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> cc: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org>, "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, FreeBSD Chat <chat(a)freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 In-Reply-To: <20000127153820.T53307(a)freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0001271255430.48240-100000(a)dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Message too convoluted to tell who actually wrote this....but i believe Greg wrote the second group of lines.... >> That would make quite an interesting test. How much does >> ftp.cdrom.com gain by running FreeBSD instead of Solaris ? > >Good question. My guess is that Solaris 2 just couldn't handle that >many connections, but it compete reasonably well with fewer >connections (say 1000). I'll copy the FreeBSD chat people and see >what they think. Interestingly, i noticed recently that the response time on usa.net seemed much slower. It appears consistently so, either by ppp connection or by network/T1 line. A few months ago, netcraft showed that they were running FreeBSD. Guess what they are running now? Yup... SOlaris. I dropped them a line saying i noticed the speed difference. -=> jm <=- "I've done questionable things, also extraordinary things.... Revel in your time!" Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA22669 for pups-liszt; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 01:26:55 +1100 (EST) >From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Fri Jan 28 00:26:41 2000 Received: from mail2.panix.com (mail2.panix.com [166.84.0.213]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA22665 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 01:26:46 +1100 (EST) Received: from panix3.panix.com (panix3.panix.com [166.84.0.228]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62093155AD; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 09:26:41 -0500 (EST) Received: (from tls@localhost) by panix3.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id JAA12242; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 09:26:41 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 09:26:41 -0500 From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> To: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 Message-ID: <20000127092641.A16017(a)rek.tjls.com> Reply-To: tls(a)rek.tjls.com References: <200001270142.RAA00523(a)moe.2bsd.com> <20000127145602.P53307(a)freebie.lemis.com> <20000127180406.A574(a)begemot.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000127180406.A574(a)begemot.org>; from joerg(a)begemot.org on Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 06:04:06PM +1300 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 06:04:06PM +1300, Joerg B. Micheel wrote: > On Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 02:56:02PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Wednesday, 26 January 2000 at 17:42:54 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > > >> From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org> > > >> I think, popularity of Solaris might rather be restricted by its > > >> performance. I have run Solaris x86 on my desktop for a while for > > > > > > Agreed. I have run Solaris (only up thru 2.6 though) in its > > > "native" environment (Sun hardware) and even there the performance > > > is not anything one would write home about. The difference between > > > SunOS 4.1.x and Solaris 2.x is dramatic in favor on the older leaner > > > system. > > > > That's my experience too, but it may not be typical. For a large > > system with a large number of processes (e.g. ftp server) the > > comparison could be very different. > > That would make quite an interesting test. How much does ftp.cdrom.com > gain by running FreeBSD instead of Solaris ? How can anyone know that it gains anything at all? To begin with, it's never *run* Solaris, so there's no way to draw any kind of meaningful comparison. The dirty little secret of Linux and *BSD is that their ascendance has been tightly coupled to Sun's utter inability to build fast, cheap uniprocessor machines. Any way you slice it, a single-processor top-of- the-line x86 box is just going to be a *lot* faster and cheaper than Sun's entry-level multiprocessor. The great gamble they made was to turn their kernel into a highly-multithreaded thing of beauty -- but that *has* to cost some (even some small) amount of uniprocessor performance, and since they can't build cheap multiprocesors that are as fast as the high end of the commodity uniprocessor x86 boxes, for a lot of applications they lose. Even on a 2- or 4- processor machine, Solaris is demonstrably far faster than *BSD or Linux for many workloads. But you can buy a single-processor x86 that's cheaper than Sun's 2- or 4- processor box now, which is why people run Linux or FreeBSD or NetBSD. There is still a point at which the only way to get enough performance is to add more processors, and at that point Solaris still wins, and will for the forseeable (by me, at least) future. -- Thor Lancelot Simon tls(a)rek.tjls.com "And where do all these highways go, now that we are free?" Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA23125 for pups-liszt; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 02:53:03 +1100 (EST) >From "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> Fri Jan 28 01:49:19 2000 Received: from mail08.gte-hosting.net ([209.238.3.57]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA23120 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 02:52:55 +1100 (EST) Received: from 209.238.157.134 (209.238.157.134) by mail08.gte-hosting.net (RS ver 1.0.53) with SMTP id 02004956 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 10:45:11 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <002101bf68de$142f8430$5d01a8c0@p2350> From: "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> To: <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> References: <200001270142.RAA00523(a)moe.2bsd.com> <20000127145602.P53307(a)freebie.lemis.com> <20000127180406.A574(a)begemot.org> <20000127092641.A16017(a)rek.tjls.com> Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 08:49:19 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Loop-Detect: 1 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk ----- Original Message ----- From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> To: Joerg B. Micheel <joerg(a)begemot.org> Cc: <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 07:26 Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 > The dirty little secret of Linux and *BSD is that their ascendance has > been tightly coupled to Sun's utter inability to build fast, cheap > uniprocessor machines. Any way you slice it, a single-processor top-of- > the-line x86 box is just going to be a *lot* faster and cheaper than > Sun's entry-level multiprocessor. The great gamble they made was to > turn their kernel into a highly-multithreaded thing of beauty -- but > that *has* to cost some (even some small) amount of uniprocessor > performance, and since they can't build cheap multiprocesors that are > as fast as the high end of the commodity uniprocessor x86 boxes, > for a lot of applications they lose. > > Even on a 2- or 4- processor machine, Solaris is demonstrably far > faster than *BSD or Linux for many workloads. But you can buy a > single-processor x86 that's cheaper than Sun's 2- or 4- processor > box now, which is why people run Linux or FreeBSD or NetBSD. There > is still a point at which the only way to get enough performance is > to add more processors, and at that point Solaris still wins, and > will for the forseeable (by me, at least) future. Another thing to mention is also, that it is very easy to build your own kernel, exctly for your needs in Linux or *BSD. (removing all emulations/compatibility modes, ...) so you get a nice small/fast kernel excactly for your type of machine & workload. Don't think it's so easy on a sun. cheers, emanuel Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA23440 for pups-liszt; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 04:02:33 +1100 (EST) >From Mirian Crzig Lennox <lennox(a)alcita.com> Fri Jan 28 02:55:30 2000 Received: from shelbyville.oai.com (IDENT:root@shelbyville.alcita.com [204.57.59.144] (may be forged)) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA23436 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 04:02:23 +1100 (EST) Received: (from mirian@localhost) by shelbyville.oai.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA04656; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 11:55:30 -0500 From: Mirian Crzig Lennox <lennox(a)alcita.com> To: UNIX Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 References: <20000127110321.I53307(a)freebie.lemis.com> <m3aels1g6u.fsf(a)shelbyville.oai.com> <20000127145736.Q53307(a)freebie.lemis.com> Original-Sender: lennox(a)alcita.com Organization: Alcita Technologies, Inc. Date: 27 Jan 2000 11:55:30 -0500 In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey's message of "Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:57:36 +1030" Message-ID: <m3ln5b5u9p.fsf(a)shelbyville.oai.com> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> writes: > > After looking at the site, it seems as though Sun is trying to > > prevent licence holders from sharing code with other licence > > holders. > > I'm not 100% sure what they mean here. Nobody can stop you > distributing software you wrote as long as it doesn't contain > proprietary Sun code. You could do that with diffs. Can I really? Any diffs are necessarily going to contain some of the original proprietary code. It depends on how aggressive Sun's lawyers are going to be about preventing any co-operative development of Solaris which is not mediated by Sun. From their website, it seems that Sun wants to be firmly in control of that process. This is in contrast to the Ancient UNIX licence, where it's my impression that SCO really doesn't care what you do with UNIX so long as you don't share code with unlicensed people. > > If this is true, it would certainly make the Solaris licence less > > desirable to hobbyists than the ancient UNIX licence, unfortunately. > > I think it is anyway. For hobby purposes, I'd much rather use either > 4.4BSD (for modern usage) or one of the old UNIXes. For practical purposes I agree, although I'm intrigued enough by the extremely modular design of Solaris to think it might be fun to spend some time playing with. -- Mirian Crzig Lennox Systems Anarchist Invest in America -- buy a Congressman!

25 years, 5 months

More Mail from Alexey: anohrt Unix for Pro350

by Warren Toomey

Hi all, I've received another e-mail from Alexey about some Y2K software for Venix and 2BSD. He's also given me a copy of a Russian UNIX called Demos. This is based on something like V7M, but Alexey says that its better than Venix. I've only got a tar file with bins & src, no disk images. Anyone with a pro350 or 380 interested in looking at this? Anyway, here's his latest e-mail and Date.c. Warren From: Alexey Chupahin <achupahi(a)uic.rsu.ru> Hello Warren, I just receive letter from John Rosenberg. He recommended me to resend date2 program. May be, my previous letter didn't go to you, but to John? I just try to resend you date2. The Date2 is good for first. Now I'm hacking RT-11 DIR (analogue ls in Unix :-), unlike to Unix one, DIR is very bad for Y2k.) program with system library SYSLIB.OBJ. When I finish it, I just try to test and fix BSD system. Unfortunatly, I haven't any documents described BSD library with utilites to see what subroutines/utilites to be needed to fix. May be, I can find it on the Web? But I have documentation for Inmos (Russian version7). I use it to see in first time. Unlike to poor (but very good!) standard Version 7, Russian one has 2 screen editors, including vi, and one Russian multiscreen edit RED, editor like small MSWord for Pro, screen menu-making/control programs and library, graphic, bisness programs and libraries for Pro. Unfortunatly, I have only documentation, no any distributive... When I finish BSD ( I hope to will finish it soon ) I'll just go to Unix7 and 6. I've got it from your site yet, Version 7 is booted Ok... May be, vi from BSD still works in Unix7? > Also, I am still not sure what to do about Demos. It's a pity that > you don't have a bootable disk image for it. Ok... Demos was very good-organized Unix for Pro-350/380... more good then Inmos, how I'm hear... Unfortunatly, I'm not rich student, but I wish to small used Alpha for a long time. I find ready to use Multia in Moscow for 450$. In Russia we have a nearly 18$ per month (Crysis :-( ) I have 360$ yet. May be, anybody can help me for 90$... ;-) regards, Alex

25 years, 5 months

Re: Anyone know what a Masscomp 5400 (54S-01) is?

by John Rosenberg

Yeah, that's the machine/software. Terrible software, if an honest attempt no doubt. Belongs in the Computer Museum. (It's such a pain to use that I would not bother, that is.) ----- Original Message ----- From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)cley.com> To: <rdkeys(a)unity.ncsu.edu> Cc: <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Sent: Friday, January 21, 2000 11:44 AM Subject: Re: Anyone know what a Masscomp 5400 (54S-01) is? > * rdkeys wrote: > > On a surplus junket, today, I ran across a 2 dollar chassis that was > > listed as a Masscomp 5400 (54S-01) computer. It looked rather like > > a DECish based thing with dual height cards, like some sort of laboratory > > digital aquisition machine. On the long-shot that it is some sort of > > PDP-11ish thing, anyone have any recollection or pointers to any info > > on that kind of a Masscomp machine? > > Masscomps were 68k based machines, they had a whole bunch of stuff for > real-time and data-acquistion type stuff. They ran something called > RTU -- real-time Unix -- which was a weirdo sysv / BSD hybrid, not fun > to use. If the 5400 is the machine I remember it's a 68020 machine > but it may have a lot of cards for other stuff in. If it *is* the > machine we had it was deeply unreliable. Masscomp got bought by > someone else later on but I forget who, so they sometimes get badged > as some other make. > > I would run away, fast. > > --tim > >

25 years, 5 months

Re: Anyone know what a Masscomp 5400 (54S-01) is?

by Greg Lehey

On Friday, 21 January 2000 at 16:44:34 +0000, Tim Bradshaw wrote: > * rdkeys wrote: >> On a surplus junket, today, I ran across a 2 dollar chassis that was >> listed as a Masscomp 5400 (54S-01) computer. It looked rather like >> a DECish based thing with dual height cards, like some sort of laboratory >> digital aquisition machine. On the long-shot that it is some sort of >> PDP-11ish thing, anyone have any recollection or pointers to any info >> on that kind of a Masscomp machine? > > Masscomps were 68k based machines, they had a whole bunch of stuff for > real-time and data-acquistion type stuff. They ran something called > RTU -- real-time Unix -- which was a weirdo sysv / BSD hybrid, not fun > to use. If the 5400 is the machine I remember it's a 68020 machine > but it may have a lot of cards for other stuff in. If it *is* the > machine we had it was deeply unreliable. Masscomp got bought by > someone else later on but I forget who, so they sometimes get badged > as some other make. > > I would run away, fast. On the other hand, IIRC this was the machine which was the basis for the Egan/Teixeira (sp?) book on writing UNIX drivers. It might be amusing for that reason alone. If it's functional and you have the space, you probably won't regret the $2 you spend for it. Greg -- Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers

25 years, 5 months

Anyone know what a Masscomp 5400 (54S-01) is?

by rdkeys＠unity.ncsu.edu

On a surplus junket, today, I ran across a 2 dollar chassis that was listed as a Masscomp 5400 (54S-01) computer. It looked rather like a DECish based thing with dual height cards, like some sort of laboratory digital aquisition machine. On the long-shot that it is some sort of PDP-11ish thing, anyone have any recollection or pointers to any info on that kind of a Masscomp machine? Thanks Bob Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA42516 for pups-liszt; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 03:45:56 +1100 (EST) >From Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)cley.com> Sat Jan 22 02:44:34 2000 Received: from lostwithiel.cley.com (lostwithiel.cley.com [212.240.242.98]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA42512 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 03:45:33 +1100 (EST) Received: (from tfb@localhost) by lostwithiel.cley.com (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) id QAA04637; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:44:35 GMT X-Mailer: 21.1 (patch 8) "Bryce Canyon" XEmacs Lucid (via feedmail 8 I); VM 6.72 under 21.1 (patch 8) "Bryce Canyon" XEmacs Lucid From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)cley.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14472.36082.530024.331321(a)cley.com> Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:44:34 +0000 (GMT) To: rdkeys(a)unity.ncsu.edu Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Anyone know what a Masscomp 5400 (54S-01) is? In-Reply-To: <200001211607.LAA12512(a)uni02du.unity.ncsu.edu> References: <200001211607.LAA12512(a)uni02du.unity.ncsu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk * rdkeys wrote: > On a surplus junket, today, I ran across a 2 dollar chassis that was > listed as a Masscomp 5400 (54S-01) computer. It looked rather like > a DECish based thing with dual height cards, like some sort of laboratory > digital aquisition machine. On the long-shot that it is some sort of > PDP-11ish thing, anyone have any recollection or pointers to any info > on that kind of a Masscomp machine? Masscomps were 68k based machines, they had a whole bunch of stuff for real-time and data-acquistion type stuff. They ran something called RTU -- real-time Unix -- which was a weirdo sysv / BSD hybrid, not fun to use. If the 5400 is the machine I remember it's a 68020 machine but it may have a lot of cards for other stuff in. If it *is* the machine we had it was deeply unreliable. Masscomp got bought by someone else later on but I forget who, so they sometimes get badged as some other make. I would run away, fast. --tim

25 years, 5 months

Re: Emulators

by Warren Toomey

In article by emanuel stiebler: > Hi, > Anybody here, who made some benchmarks of the different simulators (supnik, > apout, ...) > > What I'm looking for is something like: > supnik version xxx on pentium 2 350 MHz using linux, is xxx times faster > than a 11/73. > > cheers & thanks, > emanuel Here's my no-numbers-just-gut-feelings of the various PDP-11 emulators. John Wilson's Ersatz is probably the fastest; it's written in assembly code, and so gains a fair bit that way. Second would be the Begemot emulator. They've unrolled the instruction decode loop heavily, and that helps a lot. Bob Supnik's emulator would be the slowest of the three. However, it's still not that slow, may 1/3 the speed of Ersatz. Apout can't be compared to the above 3 emulators, because it doesn't emulate peripherals nor supervisor mode. User-mode instructions run at about the same speed as Supnik's emulator, but system calls are done by native code. The sole benchmark I have is: FreeBSD identifies my desktop box as Pentium II/Xeon/Celeron (348.93-MHz 686-class CPU). Using Apout, I can compile the 2.11BSD GENERIC kernel in 4 minutes 15 seconds. I'll try building Supnik and Begemot and getting comparative results. Last comment: all the simulators have strengths & shortcomings, and that applies not just to ease of use but also to CPU, I/O performance etc. You really have to try them all & find the one that suits you. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA35744 for pups-liszt; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:44:42 +1100 (EST) >From "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org> Fri Jan 21 12:45:24 2000 Received: from begemot.org (negara.cs.waikato.ac.nz [130.217.248.112]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA35740 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:44:20 +1100 (EST) Received: (from joerg@localhost) by begemot.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) id PAA71802; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 15:45:24 +1300 (NZDT) (envelope-from joerg) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 15:45:24 +1300 From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org> To: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>, joerg(a)begemot.org, "Hartmut B. Brandt" <brandt(a)fokus.gmd.de> Subject: Re: Emulators Message-ID: <20000121154524.A71774(a)begemot.org> References: <034201bf63ad$8ad414b0$5d01a8c0@p2350> <200001210216.NAA53527(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: <200001210216.NAA53527(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>; from Warren Toomey on Fri, Jan 21, 2000 at 01:16:40PM +1100 Organization: Begemot Computer Associates Operating-System: ... powered by FreeBSD Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, Jan 21, 2000 at 01:16:40PM +1100, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by emanuel stiebler: > > Hi, > > Anybody here, who made some benchmarks of the different simulators (supnik, > > apout, ...) > > > > What I'm looking for is something like: > > supnik version xxx on pentium 2 350 MHz using linux, is xxx times faster > > than a 11/73. Us too! :-) The problem is that it doesn't scale that simple. Each and every instruction has the parsing overhead. Next comes execution overhead. You'll find that the parsing is pretty constant, no matter whether it is a NOP or some sophisticated MUL command. The execution speed varies heavily, very often it is alot faster than the original hardware. IO has seen a tremendous speedup, we can benefit here from todays hardware alot. Just remeber how long it took to get a prompt or echo when hitting the keyboard. As a result, the original feeling of the real machine is lost, very unfortunate. As a rough summary, simple commands do not improve (much), whereas everything complex speeds up with the emulator. Harti has done quite a bit of testing on different instructions and compared them to an LSI11/73 (KDJ11A). The emulator was run on a i486 at the time. Have a look at the p11 distribution, it should be in Tests somewhere. Regards, Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)begemot.org> Begemot Computer Associates Phone: +64 7 8562148 40 Masters Avenue, Hillcrest Fax: +64 7 8562148 Hamilton, New Zealand Pager: +64 868 38222 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA39169 for pups-liszt; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 03:08:07 +1100 (EST)

25 years, 5 months

Recent PUPS Archive additions

by Warren Toomey

Hi all, Several new things have arrived in the PUPS Archive, so I thought I'd pass on details of what and where. Tim Shoppa has found & recovered the tapes from the following Usenix conferences: 1983, 1987, 1988 and 1989. Their contents are now in Applications/Shoppa_Tapes in the archive. Dennis Ritchie has sent in two DECtape images, s1-bits and s2-bits. s2-bits dates from 1972, and contains several 1st Edition binaries and the binaries of an early C compiler. s1-bits is part of a disk image, but I've been able to recover some of its contents: some application source in both assembly and C. It seems to date from early 1973. Both tapes are in Distributions/research/1972_stuff in the archive. By using the C compiler binaries on s2-bits, I've been able to recompile the two primeval C compilers whose source is in Applications/Early_C_Compilers and which are described by Dennis on his web page at http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/dmr/primevalC.html Most recently, Dennis has also unearthed the on-line manual pages for 3rd and 4th Edition UNIX. They are in Distributions/research/Dennis_v3 and Distributions/research/Dennis_v3, respectively. It still looks like all kernel code before 5th Edition is gone, except for the nsys kernel code in Distributions/research/Dennis_v3 and a few bits on paper that Dennis has. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA33093 for pups-liszt; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 04:31:59 +1100 (EST) >From "A. P. Garcia" <apg(a)execpc.com> Fri Jan 21 03:25:39 2000 Received: from playground.lan (qmailr(a)androzani-1-151.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.95.25]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA33089 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 04:31:40 +1100 (EST) Received: (qmail 478 invoked by uid 1000); 20 Jan 2000 17:25:39 -0000 Date: 20 Jan 2000 17:25:39 -0000 Message-ID: <20000120172539.477.qmail(a)playground.lan> From: "A. P. Garcia" <apg(a)execpc.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: CD-R request Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > Several new things have arrived in the PUPS Archive, so I thought > I'd pass on details of what and where. Could someone please burn a new snapshot of the archive for me? I'm happy to compensate you, of course. Thanks, Phil Garcia Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA

25 years, 5 months

µVAX

by John Rosenberg

Please do not trash me on this one! I think that 4000 series µVAX is just a little more than I need. Would anyone care to swap this puppy for a table-top PDP-8 or PDP-11 of any sort? I have a working machine & keyboard; it wants your basic RGB with or without sync (i.e. sync on green). Whaddadya think? Happy new year! --JCR

25 years, 5 months

Re: macro-11 for V7-Unix

by Joerg B. Micheel

On Fri, Jan 14, 2000 at 07:52:53PM -0500, Tim Shoppa wrote: > As the possibly only member of this list who still makes a living writing > MACRO-11 code, I'm gonna take two shots at this: I believe the SEP RELAG-3 system (www.sep.de) is based on LSI-11, not sure it is written in assembler, though. Perhaps Torsten could tell ... Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)begemot.org> Begemot Computer Associates Phone: +64 7 8562148 40 Masters Avenue, Hillcrest Fax: +64 7 8562148 Hamilton, New Zealand Pager: +64 868 38222 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA19013 for pups-liszt; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:18:09 +1100 (EST) >From Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> Tue Jan 18 15:17:43 2000 Received: from chiton.ucsd.edu (chiton.ucsd.edu [192.135.238.128]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA19009 for <PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:17:48 +1100 (EST) Received: (from cdl@localhost) by chiton.ucsd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA04673; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:17:43 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:17:43 -0800 (PST) From: Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> Message-Id: <200001180517.VAA04673(a)chiton.ucsd.edu> To: SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com Subject: Re: macro-11 for V7-Unix Cc: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > From owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Fri Jan 14 17:09 PST 2000 > Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 19:52:53 -0500 > From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> > To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au > Subject: Re: macro-11 for V7-Unix > > >In article by Prof. Karl Kleine: > >> once upon a time, it was around 1981, I used a pdp11/45 with V7 > >> (I started my life with Unix with V6 in 1977/8), doing some research > >> in compilers, portability, dense code schemes for interpreters. > >> For that I used a port of DEC MACRO-11 to Unix. There was also > >>... > >> I have the Supnik emulator to play with, and I wonder if this > >> macro-11 and linker is still somewhere around. I would love to > >> prepare a few examples for my lessons here (I'm a professor in > > >Hi Karl, I think this came up on Usenet recently. No I don't know > >of a port of Macro-11 to Unix. I'll pass this on to our mailing list, > >just in case anybody knows of it. > > As the possibly only member of this list who still makes a living writing > MACRO-11 code, I'm gonna take two shots at this: > > One possibility is the "as11" assembler from Xinu. It's a fairly portable > PDP-11 assembler, but doesn't have all the real macro facilities of > real Macro-11. You can find this at > > http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/xinu/un… > > The other (and more likely) possibility is the "m11" macro package from > Harvard, which *does* come with a linker ("l11") as Karl described. The > full distribution is in the 2.11BSD source tree, at "/usr/src/new/m11". > > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Let me toss in another possibility. Around that time (late 70's - early 80's) we (Marine Physical Lab) were running an RT-11 emulator on a couple of our PDP-11 Unix systems. Product of Human Computing Resources, as I remember. Once you can emulate RT-11, you can run all of its CUSPs: assembler, linker, Fortran, what have you. Assuming, of course, that you have appropriate licenses etc. We did it to get a reasonably capable Fortran compiler with our Unix. carl carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego {decvax|ucbvax} !ucsd!mpl!cdl cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu clowenstein(a)ucsd.edu

25 years, 5 months

Re: macro-11 for V7-Unix

by Warren Toomey

In article by Prof. Karl Kleine: > > Dear Warren, > > once upon a time, it was around 1981, I used a pdp11/45 with V7 > (I started my life with Unix with V6 in 1977/8), doing some research > in compilers, portability, dense code schemes for interpreters. > For that I used a port of DEC MACRO-11 to Unix. There was also > an associated linker and the package offered also Fortran, though > I didnt't use the latter. As far as I remember, this port was > done at Harvard and distributed to some academic sites. I was > at the University of Nijmegen, The Netherlands, at that time. > > I have the Supnik emulator to play with, and I wonder if this > macro-11 and linker is still somewhere around. I would love to > prepare a few examples for my lessons here (I'm a professor in > computer science these days, at the University of Applied Sciences > here in Jena). > > Any ideas? Might there be copies in yours archive? I would like > to know before I go through the motions of getting teh SCO source > licence and all that... > > Thanks for your help! > Karl Kleine Hi Karl, I think this came up on Usenet recently. No I don't know of a port of Macro-11 to Unix. I'll pass this on to our mailing list, just in case anybody knows of it. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA03424 for pups-liszt; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 11:53:18 +1100 (EST) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Sat Jan 15 10:52:53 2000 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA03418 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 11:52:57 +1100 (EST) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 19:52:53 -0500 Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 19:52:53 -0500 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU Message-Id: <000114195253.20200992(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: macro-11 for V7-Unix Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >In article by Prof. Karl Kleine: >> once upon a time, it was around 1981, I used a pdp11/45 with V7 >> (I started my life with Unix with V6 in 1977/8), doing some research >> in compilers, portability, dense code schemes for interpreters. >> For that I used a port of DEC MACRO-11 to Unix. There was also >>... >> I have the Supnik emulator to play with, and I wonder if this >> macro-11 and linker is still somewhere around. I would love to >> prepare a few examples for my lessons here (I'm a professor in >Hi Karl, I think this came up on Usenet recently. No I don't know >of a port of Macro-11 to Unix. I'll pass this on to our mailing list, >just in case anybody knows of it. As the possibly only member of this list who still makes a living writing MACRO-11 code, I'm gonna take two shots at this: One possibility is the "as11" assembler from Xinu. It's a fairly portable PDP-11 assembler, but doesn't have all the real macro facilities of real Macro-11. You can find this at http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/xinu/un… The other (and more likely) possibility is the "m11" macro package from Harvard, which *does* come with a linker ("l11") as Karl described. The full distribution is in the 2.11BSD source tree, at "/usr/src/new/m11". Here's the man page - look at the "NOTES" section near the bottom for the history. M11(1) M11(1) NAME m11 - Macro-11 assembler for UNIX SYNOPSIS m11 [ option1 option2 ... ] file1 file2 ... filen DESCRIPTION M11 assembles the concatenation of the specified files (file1, etc.) and terminates when an ``.end'' statement is encountered. The resulting object file is usually named filen.obj (see below). If a file argument, filei does not contain a ``.'' in its name, the file filei.m11 will be sought before filei itself. Options, if desired, may appear anywhere in the command, and are chosen from the following list. All options are interpreted before any files are read. -ls Produce an assembly listing and place in filen.lst -lt Produce an assembly listing on the standard output. -fl If coupled with the -ls or -lt directives, makes the listing have a shortened format. It is short<AD> hand for -nl:seq:loc:bin:bex:me:meb:ttm:toc:sym. -uc Simulate an initial .dsabl lc directive. Force all characters in macro definitions to be upper case. This flag makes lower-case handling in m11 compat<AD> able with the DEC Macro-11 assemblers. -um Force all characters in macro definitions to be upper case. This flag makes lower-case handling in this release of m11 compatable with previous ver<AD> sions of m11. -de Make all option choices needed to make assembly mimic DEC Macro-11. Implies (inter alia) the -uc flag. This includes the Johns Hopkins asm assem<AD> bler. -ha Make all option choices needed to make assembly mimic earlier (Harvard) releases of m11. This implies the -um flag. Default .psect and .csect attributes are set up in the funny Harvard way. -mx Produce a listing of the source program as it appears after macro expansion. Macro calls, condi<AD> tional directives and so on appear in the listing as comments. Listing appears on standard output. No machine code is generated or listed. This option is meant to correspond to the -E or -P options of the C compiler cc(1). -my Like -mx, except that macro calls and conditional directives do not show up in the listing. -10 Generate an error whenever op codes not in the PDP-11 ``standard instruction set'' are encoun<AD> tered. Programmers writing for a PDP 11/10 can catch instructions illegal for that machine by using this argument. -dp:args The default attributes for a .psect or unnamed .csect are redefined, using the colon-separated list args of valid .psect attributes. -da:args The default attributes for an .asect are redefined. -dp:c The default attributes for a named .csect are rede<AD> fined. -li:arglist Simulate an initial .list arglist directive. All .list and .nlist directives in the program text which attempt to change the settings established with the -li flag will be ignored. -nl:arglist Like -li:arglist, but for the .nlist directive. -en:arglist Similarly, for the .enabl directive. -ds:arglist Similarly, but for the .dsabl directive. -cr:arglist Produces a cross-reference listing. If the -ls option is also included, the cross-reference list<AD> ing will follow the assembly listing in filen.lst. References which are tagged with the symbol # are definitions. References tagged with * are destuc<AD> tive references: the value of the symbol or vari<AD> able in question is changed. Arglist consists of colon-separated keywords from the following set. The keywords may be prefix abbreviated: sym All user-defined symbols are indexed. mac All macro names are indexed. per All uses of permanent symbols - op codes, directives, etc - are indexed. pse All psect names are indexed. For compata<AD> bility with the RT-11 CREF program, the argument cse is synonymous with pse. err All errors are indexed. reg All register uses are indexed. If no arglist is specified the default sym:mac:err is used. In the listing page and line numbers for uses of symbols are followed by a # sign if the symbol is defined and by a * sign if the symbol is modified. -lp Same as -ls, but also spools filen.lst for printing upon completion. -no No object file is produced. This is useful for syntax checking or list producing. -xs:n Allots nK words of extra space for symbol table and macro storage. NOTE: This option is currently inoperative: m11 automatically allots core for its tables as needed. -xx Debug flag: generate all kinds of wierd hack flack. -ns No symbol table is included in the object file (thus ddt knows of no symbols from this assembly). -sx Make the symbol table contain ``local symbols'' as well as ordinary symbols. -u Treat form feed characters as spaces. This will make m11's idea of line numbers coincide with the UNIX text editors. Macro-11 statements containing imbedded form feed characters will be parsed dif<AD> ferently when the -u flag is in effect. -na:file Override the convention of using last name as file name. Instead, use names file.obj and file.lst for object and listing files. NOTES This implementation of Macro-11 is a distant hand-me down from an old DEC Macro-11 modified at Harvard University in the early 1970's. It is grubby with smudges by Brent Byer, F. J. Howard, Bob Bowering, and Jim Reeds. It does not implement keyword arguments such as are described in section 7.3.6 of the DEC manual. The .enabl abs option does not work. Listing control is by default .list ttm. Unlike earlier editions of m11 at UCB and at Harvard, it does treat immediate constants of floating point opera<AD> tions correctly: see the last paragraph of section 6.4.2 on the middle of page 6-27 of the DEC manual. M11 has several directives not described in the DEC manual. See the New UCB M11 Manual. The default attributes for .psects are different from those described in the DEC man<AD> ual, but may be changed by the -dp flag. The .enabl glb feature is implemented: undefined symbols are taken as undefined global externals. FILES /usr/share/misc/sysmac.smlsystem macro library (for .mcall directive) filen.xrf intermediate cross-reference temporary file lpr(1) spooler /usr/ucb/macxrf cross-reference post-processor SEE ALSO PDP-11 MACRO-11 Language Reference Manual , Digital Equip<AD> ment Corp. Order No. AA-5075A-TC, August 1977. New UCB M11 Manual , notional document by Jim Reeds. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

25 years, 5 months

Re: New member

by msokolov＠meson.jpsystems.com

I just wrote: > [...] > -- > Michael Sokolov 2695 VILLA CREEK DR STE 240 > Software Engineer DALLAS TX 75234-7329 USA > JP Systems, Inc. Phone: +1-972-484-5432 x247 > or +1-888-665-2460 x247 > E-mail: msokolov(a)meson.jpsystems.com Fax: +1-972-484-4154 Argh! Used the wrong sig file again! Here is the right one: -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Computer Operation Facility Special Agent 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY #4 International Free Computing Task Force DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 ARPA INET: msokolov(a)meson.jpsystems.com I guess I'll keep bumping into this one until I set up separate mail addresses for my two affiliations and subscribe to all lists from the right one... Sorry about that.

25 years, 5 months

Re: New member

by msokolov＠meson.jpsystems.com

John Rosenberg <jcrosenberg(a)earthlink.net> wrote: > Recently I came into posession of a MicroVAX 4000 series machine at an > auction, and the question now is: What do I do with the darned thing? The right answer for you is the Quasijarus project. See its WWW page at: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ The project has a mailing list to which I have already subscribed you. To post to the list, send to quasijarus(a)meson.jpsystems.com. If anyone else wants to subscribe, drop a line to quasijarus-request(a)meson.jpsystems.com. -- Michael Sokolov 2695 VILLA CREEK DR STE 240 Software Engineer DALLAS TX 75234-7329 USA JP Systems, Inc. Phone: +1-972-484-5432 x247 or +1-888-665-2460 x247 E-mail: msokolov(a)meson.jpsystems.com Fax: +1-972-484-4154 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA86111 for pups-liszt; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 03:36:54 +1100 (EST)

25 years, 5 months

More USENIX tapes recovered

by Tim Shoppa

On a recent expedition, I recovered some additional USENIX tapes: Usenix 83 Usenix 87 Usenix 88 Usenix 89 Now, none of these are as "classic" as the current Usenix tapes in the PUPS archive (by my searching, Usenix 77, 78, 79, 80, and 81.) Is there perhaps some other on-line archive out there that would be interested in copies of these tapes? My E-mails to various addresses on www.usenix.org so far have left me with the impression that they have no library of material older than 1993 and they have no interest in older material, though I strongly suspect that I'm talking with all the wrong people. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA85888 for pups-liszt; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 03:04:56 +1100 (EST) >From "John Rosenberg" <jcrosenberg(a)earthlink.net> Thu Jan 13 02:03:04 2000 Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.85]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA85879 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 03:04:29 +1100 (EST) Received: from home (sdn-ar-001mabostP216.dialsprint.net [168.191.54.130]) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA27448; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 08:04:19 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <003f01bf5d16$a0ccc020$c469fea9@home> From: "John Rosenberg" <jcrosenberg(a)earthlink.net> To: <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>, "Unix Heritage Society" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> References: <200001100540.QAA64928(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: New member Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 11:03:04 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Kind greetings, all. I am a new member of the Society, and have been delighted with the messages I have seen. Recently I came into posession of a MicroVAX 4000 series machine at an auction, and the question now is: What do I do with the darned thing? It was really a bargain I could not pass up; and I'm pretty sure that it is in entirely usable condition. (I still have to fully test it.) Suggesetions? I have no Web site to run, even if I did want to spend the money on the required infrastructure & maintenance. Much obliged in advance, and again, I am more than happy to have joined the Society. John Rosenberg 33 Pond Ave. #601 Brookline, MA 02445 617-277-7868 jcrosenberg(a)earthlink.net (generally preferred) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA86073 for pups-liszt; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 03:33:14 +1100 (EST)

25 years, 5 months

Successful recompilation of last1120 C compiler

by Warren Toomey

Hi All, With a lot of help from Norman Wilson, Tim Shoppa and Dennis Ritchie himself, I've been able to modify my Apout emulator to run the 2nd Edition UNIX C compiler binaries. Using these, I've been able to recompile the `last1120' C compiler described by Dennis on his web page at: http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/primevalC.html The new version of Apout, as always, is available at: ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/pub/PDP-11/Sims/Apout/ I've also put the source code to the last1120 C compiler in UnixBins/ Soren also pointed out a code problem stopping compilation on NetBSD, which has been fixed. Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA74341 for pups-liszt; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 02:10:03 +1100 (EST) >From "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Tue Jan 11 01:08:33 2000 Received: from toad.xkl.com (toad.xkl.com [192.94.202.40]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA74301 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 02:09:41 +1100 (EST) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 07:08:33 -0800 From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Subject: I need help rewriting the 2.11BSD bootblock... To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Message-ID: <13514475029.13.DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Problem as follows: I have a PDP-11/44, 2 DZ11s, a (currently nonfunctional) Emulex TC12 tape controller, a Pertec-type drive for that (known working), and a Viking UDT MSCP <> SCSI disk controller. Problem is, the Viking doesn't raise the RACMDI bit upon completion of a command because interrupts are off, so the boot loops forever. I tried taking out the test for RACMDI and just putting in delay loops, but that doesn't work. (The boot hangs later on trying to reset the controller. I dunno if the I/O went or not.) The controller and system are known good. I can put RT-11 back on the disk and it will run fine (excepting the date). I have a 200 meg SCSI-1 drive on there, it will get a 540 meg drive later. Anyway, I need to change the boot. I was told others had this problem too. I lack MSCP docs and don't really have the knowledge to do this. Can someone help me, or at least point me at someone who can? I'm more or less stuck for now. -------

25 years, 6 months

Jump to page:

2025

2024

2023

2022

2021

2020

2019

2018

2017

2016

2015

2014

2013

2012

2011

2010

2009

2008

2007

2006

2005

2004

2003

2002

2001

2000

1999

1998

1997

1996

1995

1994

1993

1992

1991

1990

TUHS