I've just been asked a rather unusual question: when you build a BSD
kernel, the name of the configuration file is traditionally upper
case. Does anybody have insight as to why this should be?
Greg
--
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See complete headers for address and phone numbers
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>From Peter Chubb <peterc(a)aurema.com> Fri Feb 4 08:37:42 2000
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Subject: Re: Why upper case configuration file names in BSD?
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>>>>> "Greg" == Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> writes:
Greg> I've just been asked a rather unusual question: when you build a BSD
Greg> kernel, the name of the configuration file is traditionally upper
Greg> case. Does anybody have insight as to why this should be?
The same reason that Makefile has an upper-case first letter -- so it
appears early in an ls listing, rather than in the middle of a big
long list.
Peter C
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> Also, the white paper on BeOS claims that with all the new advances in
> hardware, modern OS's have too many layers, which they call 'silt', to
> allow them to use the hardware effectively. They argue that only
> starting from scratch allows full use of modern technology, including
> multimedia advances. How can FreeBSD keep up? We don't have kernel
> threading and SMP support is still in the works, and most BSD features
> are 'add-ons'. Should this be a concern for the future?
Unlike BeOS, FreeBSD is multiuser, and supports the concept of
credentials. I was asked to do some work porting some things,
including NFS, SMB, NetWare, and filesystem support to BeOS,
but it has an intrinsic lack of a security model, which can not
be easily overcome. It is not suitable as a server OS.
Terry Lambert
terry(a)lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
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>From Arno Griffioen <arno(a)usn.nl> Thu Feb 3 00:17:11 2000
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From: Arno Griffioen <arno(a)usn.nl>
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Subject: Qbus bootstrap board/ROMS?
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
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Any suggestions as to where I can get my hands on boot ROM's (or
data files. I have access to an EPROM programmer) for use with an 11/73?
A boot-ROM Qbus card would be nice too..
I'm trying to build up a new 11/73 (heh.. 'new' ;-) with an ex-uVAX BA213
chassis. (the original KA650 is in storage as a spare for my running machine)
I have most of the stuff I need (anybody have a spare 4 Mbyte QBUS card??) and
can re-use most of the QBUS cards from the uVAX (with an Emulex UC07
SCSI card! yeah!), but I don't have any boot ROM's or a ROM-card
for the 11/73.
The CPU card is a dual-wide version, so no on-board ROM's :-(
So far my searches have turned up little or nothing in this area, but I
hope that the combined brain-power here knows some addresses I can
try..
Thanx!
Bye, Arno,
--
PSINetworks Europe Fax: +31-23-5699841 | One disk to rule them all,
Siriusdreef 34 Tel: +31-23-5699840 | One disk to bind them,
2132WT Hoofddorp+--------------------------------+ One disk to hold the files
The Netherlands | * Musical Interlude * | And in the darkness grind 'em
----------------+--------------------------------+------------------------------
We say Retribution, We say Vengeance is bliss, We say Revolution,
With a Cast-Iron fist! (Megadeth, 'The Disintegrators')
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>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Thu Feb 3 00:45:17 2000
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Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 9:45:17 -0500
From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
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Subject: Re: Qbus bootstrap board/ROMS?
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>Any suggestions as to where I can get my hands on boot ROM's (or
>data files. I have access to an EPROM programmer) for use with an 11/73?
>A boot-ROM Qbus card would be nice too..
[Later comment indicates a KDJ11-A...]
If you don't mind a toggle-in (err, um, ODT-in) bootstrap, you can
find a selection (some of them with disassemblies) at
http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/
just click on "Bootstraps". If you really insist on rolling your
own from scratch, you can burn these (modified if you want) into your
own EPROM's.
Chances are that if you find a Q-bus card that takes EPROM's it will
already have a boot ROM in it. For more on what's out there, read
Micronote #3 "Compatible Bootstraps for the LSI-11/73" and Micronote #15
"Q-Bus Hardware Bootstraps". If you don't have a printed set of
Micronotes handy, you can click on the above link at metalab and
then click on the Micronote index.
>I have most of the stuff I need (anybody have a spare 4 Mbyte QBUS card??) and
>can re-use most of the QBUS cards from the uVAX (with an Emulex UC07
>SCSI card! yeah!), but I don't have any boot ROM's or a ROM-card
>for the 11/73.
The UC07 has an onboard PDP-11 bootstrap you can enable. Why not just
turn it on?
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
In article by Mirian Crzig Lennox:
> Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> writes:
> >
> > The conditions look rather like the SCO ancient UNIX licences, but
> > it's *cheaper* ($75, which includes deliverables from Sun). Warren,
> > is this ammunition to lobby SCO to drop the prices of Ancient UNIX
> > licenses?
>
> After looking at the site, it seems as though Sun is trying to prevent
> licence holders from sharing code with other licence holders. If this
> is true, it would certainly make the Solaris licence less desirable to
> hobbyists than the ancient UNIX licence, unfortunately.
> --Mirian
Currently out of town. Still, it might be worth asking SCO for a discount!
Does the license cover all of Solaris, or just the kernel??
Cheers,
Warren
----- Original Message -----
From: Jonathon McKitrick <jcm(a)dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>
To: John Rosenberg <jcrosenberg(a)earthlink.net>
Cc: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>; Joerg B. Micheel <joerg(a)begemot.org>;
Steven M. Schultz <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>; <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; FreeBSD
Chat <chat(a)freebsd.org>
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2000 07:24
Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8
> tough sell. Several guys i know say the majority of new unix installs
> are Linux with few BSD. They say the only BSD users that are growing
> are ISPs.
I think, that linux is somehow an entry in the unix world ;-)
After a while you notice, that *BSD is cleaner & more stable.
> Also, the white paper on BeOS claims that with all the new advances in
> hardware, modern OS's have too many layers, which they call 'silt', to
> allow them to use the hardware effectively.
Look what happened to linux & *BSD in the last months/years. They adapting
new technologies very fast ...
> They argue that only
> starting from scratch allows full use of modern technology, including
> multimedia advances. How can FreeBSD keep up? We don't have kernel
> threading and SMP support is still in the works, and most BSD features
> are 'add-ons'. Should this be a concern for the future?
Don't be "concerned", build in the stuff you're missing ;-)
cheers,
emanuel
I have written several device drivers (e.g., disk, DSP, DAT) for Solaris.
It is the slowest OS since Multix. Solaris is buggy, albeit pretty darned
stable. Interesting OS, but I'd stick by BSD (from a systems programmer
type).
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jonathon McKitrick" <jcm(a)dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>
To: "Greg Lehey" <grog(a)lemis.com>
Cc: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org>; "Steven M. Schultz"
<sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>; <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; "FreeBSD Chat"
<chat(a)freebsd.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 8:02 AM
Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8
>
> Message too convoluted to tell who actually wrote this....but i
> believe Greg wrote the second group of lines....
>
> >> That would make quite an interesting test. How much does
> >> ftp.cdrom.com gain by running FreeBSD instead of Solaris ?
> >
> >Good question. My guess is that Solaris 2 just couldn't handle that
> >many connections, but it compete reasonably well with fewer
> >connections (say 1000). I'll copy the FreeBSD chat people and see
> >what they think.
>
> Interestingly, i noticed recently that the response time on usa.net
> seemed much slower. It appears consistently so, either by ppp
> connection or by network/T1 line. A few months ago, netcraft showed
> that they were running FreeBSD. Guess what they are running
> now? Yup... SOlaris. I dropped them a line saying i noticed the speed
> difference.
>
> -=> jm <=-
>
> "I've done questionable things, also extraordinary things....
> Revel in your time!"
>
>
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>From "Jonathon McKitrick" <jcm(a)dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Sat Jan 29 00:24:19 2000
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From: Jonathon McKitrick <jcm(a)dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>
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Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8
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I'm a little concerned where all this leaves FreeBSD. If Solaris goes
open source, or something similar, and tries to compete with w2k, plus
linux is out there growing, and BeOS will be free soon.... FreeBSD might be a
tough sell. Several guys i know say the majority of new unix installs
are Linux with few BSD. They say the only BSD users that are growing
are ISPs. Does anyone have any stats on how fast we are
growing on the desktop, or in general?
Also, the white paper on BeOS claims that with all the new advances in
hardware, modern OS's have too many layers, which they call 'silt', to
allow them to use the hardware effectively. They argue that only
starting from scratch allows full use of modern technology, including
multimedia advances. How can FreeBSD keep up? We don't have kernel
threading and SMP support is still in the works, and most BSD features
are 'add-ons'. Should this be a concern for the future?
-=> jm <=-
"Do not taunt the Happy Fun Ball."
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>From "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> Sat Jan 29 01:14:48 2000
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Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 08:14:48 -0700
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----- Original Message -----
From: Jonathon McKitrick <jcm(a)dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>
To: John Rosenberg <jcrosenberg(a)earthlink.net>
Cc: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>; Joerg B. Micheel <joerg(a)begemot.org>;
Steven M. Schultz <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>; <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; FreeBSD
Chat <chat(a)freebsd.org>
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2000 07:24
Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8
>
> I'm a little concerned where all this leaves FreeBSD. If Solaris goes
> open source, or something similar, and tries to compete with w2k, plus
> linux is out there growing, and BeOS will be free soon.... FreeBSD might
be a
> tough sell. Several guys i know say the majority of new unix installs
> are Linux with few BSD. They say the only BSD users that are growing
> are ISPs. Does anyone have any stats on how fast we are
> growing on the desktop, or in general?
>
> Also, the white paper on BeOS claims that with all the new advances in
> hardware, modern OS's have too many layers, which they call 'silt', to
> allow them to use the hardware effectively. They argue that only
> starting from scratch allows full use of modern technology, including
> multimedia advances. How can FreeBSD keep up? We don't have kernel
> threading and SMP support is still in the works, and most BSD features
> are 'add-ons'. Should this be a concern for the future?
>
> -=> jm <=-
>
> "Do not taunt the Happy Fun Ball."
>
>
>
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>From Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)cley.com> Sat Jan 29 02:04:35 2000
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To: Mirian Crzig Lennox <lennox(a)alcita.com>
Cc: UNIX Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8
In-Reply-To: <m3ln5b5u9p.fsf(a)shelbyville.oai.com>
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<m3aels1g6u.fsf(a)shelbyville.oai.com>
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* Mirian Crzig Lennox wrote:
> This is in contrast to the Ancient UNIX licence, where it's my
> impression that SCO really doesn't care what you do with UNIX so long
> as you don't share code with unlicensed people.
But that's what you'd expect isn't it? Sun have some reasonable hope
of continuing to make money from Solaris, and they obviously would
like to retain some control, while SCO is unlikely to be regarding
6th-edition Unix as a big earner...
--tim
Sun's releasing the source code to Solaris. Take a look at
http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/source/index.html for more
details.
The conditions look rather like the SCO ancient UNIX licences, but
it's *cheaper* ($75, which includes deliverables from Sun). Warren,
is this ammunition to lobby SCO to drop the prices of Ancient UNIX
licenses?
Greg
--
Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
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>From Mirian Crzig Lennox <lennox(a)alcita.com> Thu Jan 27 11:00:57 2000
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From: Mirian Crzig Lennox <lennox(a)alcita.com>
To: UNIX Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8
References: <20000127110321.I53307(a)freebie.lemis.com>
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Date: 26 Jan 2000 20:00:57 -0500
In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey's message of "Thu, 27 Jan 2000 11:03:21 +1030"
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Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> writes:
>
> The conditions look rather like the SCO ancient UNIX licences, but
> it's *cheaper* ($75, which includes deliverables from Sun). Warren,
> is this ammunition to lobby SCO to drop the prices of Ancient UNIX
> licenses?
After looking at the site, it seems as though Sun is trying to prevent
licence holders from sharing code with other licence holders. If this
is true, it would certainly make the Solaris licence less desirable to
hobbyists than the ancient UNIX licence, unfortunately.
--Mirian
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>From "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org> Thu Jan 27 11:23:07 2000
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To: Mirian Crzig Lennox <lennox(a)alcita.com>
Cc: UNIX Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8
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On Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 08:00:57PM -0500, Mirian Crzig Lennox wrote:
> Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> writes:
> >
> > The conditions look rather like the SCO ancient UNIX licences, but
> > it's *cheaper* ($75, which includes deliverables from Sun). Warren,
> > is this ammunition to lobby SCO to drop the prices of Ancient UNIX
> > licenses?
>
> After looking at the site, it seems as though Sun is trying to prevent
> licence holders from sharing code with other licence holders. If this
> is true, it would certainly make the Solaris licence less desirable to
> hobbyists than the ancient UNIX licence, unfortunately.
You're right, as long as patches do contain portions of Solaris.
Everything that does so has to funnel trough Sun first, this can
be done by putting it onto their secure server. The restriction
is that you can't share it freely, everything must be visible to
Sun. This is slightly different from the original educational
license, which allowed sharing with peers bound by the same
license conditions.
I think, popularity of Solaris might rather be restricted by its
performance. I have run Solaris x86 on my desktop for a while for
evaluation purposes. I don't think you could tune it easily to
become as fast as a regular Linux or *BSD system. Apart from
that, it certainly is the dinosaur solution of the decade.
Joerg
--
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>From "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> Thu Jan 27 11:28:28 2000
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From: "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com>
To: "Mirian Crzig Lennox" <lennox(a)alcita.com>,
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References: <20000127110321.I53307(a)freebie.lemis.com> <m3aels1g6u.fsf(a)shelbyville.oai.com>
Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 18:28:28 -0700
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---- Original Message -----
From: Mirian Crzig Lennox <lennox(a)alcita.com>
To: UNIX Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2000 18:00
Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8
> Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> writes:
> >
> > The conditions look rather like the SCO ancient UNIX licences, but
> > it's *cheaper* ($75, which includes deliverables from Sun). Warren,
> > is this ammunition to lobby SCO to drop the prices of Ancient UNIX
> > licenses?
>
> After looking at the site, it seems as though Sun is trying to prevent
> licence holders from sharing code with other licence holders. If this
> is true, it would certainly make the Solaris licence less desirable to
> hobbyists than the ancient UNIX licence, unfortunately.
They don't "prevent" it, it seems that it is always steered by/at SUN.
>From the Webpage:
> If you want to make your source code modifications available to other
Solaris
> source code licensees, you can do so by passing the changes back to Sun,
and
> Sun will then post them to a secure website that you and other registered
users
> may access.
cheers,
emanuel
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu Jan 27 11:42:54 2000
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From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
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Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8
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> From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org>
> I think, popularity of Solaris might rather be restricted by its
> performance. I have run Solaris x86 on my desktop for a while for
Agreed. I have run Solaris (only up thru 2.6 though) in its
"native" environment (Sun hardware) and even there the performance
is not anything one would write home about. The difference between
SunOS 4.1.x and Solaris 2.x is dramatic in favor on the older leaner
system.
I have not run Solarix x86 though but have heard from others (before
this) that its performance is quite a bit less than a BSD* system.
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Thu Jan 27 14:27:36 2000
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Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:57:36 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: Mirian Crzig Lennox <lennox(a)alcita.com>
Cc: UNIX Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8
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On Wednesday, 26 January 2000 at 20:00:57 -0500, Mirian Crzig Lennox wrote:
> Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> writes:
>>
>> The conditions look rather like the SCO ancient UNIX licences, but
>> it's *cheaper* ($75, which includes deliverables from Sun). Warren,
>> is this ammunition to lobby SCO to drop the prices of Ancient UNIX
>> licenses?
>
> After looking at the site, it seems as though Sun is trying to
> prevent licence holders from sharing code with other licence
> holders.
I'm not 100% sure what they mean here. Nobody can stop you
distributing software you wrote as long as it doesn't contain
proprietary Sun code. You could do that with diffs.
> If this is true, it would certainly make the Solaris licence less
> desirable to hobbyists than the ancient UNIX licence, unfortunately.
I think it is anyway. For hobby purposes, I'd much rather use either
4.4BSD (for modern usage) or one of the old UNIXes.
Greg
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Thu Jan 27 14:26:02 2000
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Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:56:02 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8
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On Wednesday, 26 January 2000 at 17:42:54 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
>> From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org>
>> I think, popularity of Solaris might rather be restricted by its
>> performance. I have run Solaris x86 on my desktop for a while for
>
> Agreed. I have run Solaris (only up thru 2.6 though) in its
> "native" environment (Sun hardware) and even there the performance
> is not anything one would write home about. The difference between
> SunOS 4.1.x and Solaris 2.x is dramatic in favor on the older leaner
> system.
That's my experience too, but it may not be typical. For a large
system with a large number of processes (e.g. ftp server) the
comparison could be very different.
> I have not run Solarix x86 though but have heard from others (before
> this) that its performance is quite a bit less than a BSD* system.
Ditto. I have a CD somewhere that I just couldn't be bothered
installing.
Greg
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>From "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org> Thu Jan 27 15:04:06 2000
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From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org>
To: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
Cc: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8
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On Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 02:56:02PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote:
> On Wednesday, 26 January 2000 at 17:42:54 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> >> From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org>
> >> I think, popularity of Solaris might rather be restricted by its
> >> performance. I have run Solaris x86 on my desktop for a while for
> >
> > Agreed. I have run Solaris (only up thru 2.6 though) in its
> > "native" environment (Sun hardware) and even there the performance
> > is not anything one would write home about. The difference between
> > SunOS 4.1.x and Solaris 2.x is dramatic in favor on the older leaner
> > system.
>
> That's my experience too, but it may not be typical. For a large
> system with a large number of processes (e.g. ftp server) the
> comparison could be very different.
That would make quite an interesting test. How much does ftp.cdrom.com
gain by running FreeBSD instead of Solaris ?
Joerg
--
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Begemot Computer Associates Phone: +64 7 8562148
40 Masters Avenue, Hillcrest Fax: +64 7 8562148
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Thu Jan 27 15:08:20 2000
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Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:38:20 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org>
Cc: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au,
FreeBSD Chat <chat(a)FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8
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On Thursday, 27 January 2000 at 18:04:06 +1300, Joerg Micheel wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 02:56:02PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote:
>> On Wednesday, 26 January 2000 at 17:42:54 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
>>>> From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org>
>>>> I think, popularity of Solaris might rather be restricted by its
>>>> performance. I have run Solaris x86 on my desktop for a while for
>>>
>>> Agreed. I have run Solaris (only up thru 2.6 though) in its
>>> "native" environment (Sun hardware) and even there the performance
>>> is not anything one would write home about. The difference between
>>> SunOS 4.1.x and Solaris 2.x is dramatic in favor on the older leaner
>>> system.
>>
>> That's my experience too, but it may not be typical. For a large
>> system with a large number of processes (e.g. ftp server) the
>> comparison could be very different.
>
> That would make quite an interesting test. How much does
> ftp.cdrom.com gain by running FreeBSD instead of Solaris ?
Good question. My guess is that Solaris 2 just couldn't handle that
many connections, but it compete reasonably well with fewer
connections (say 1000). I'll copy the FreeBSD chat people and see
what they think.
For -chat: Sun have announced their intention to release the source
code of Solaris [2.]8. We're discussing what this means. See
http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/source/ for more details.
Greg
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>From Jonathon McKitrick <jcm(a)dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Thu Jan 27 23:02:23 2000
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To: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
cc: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org>,
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Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8
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Message too convoluted to tell who actually wrote this....but i
believe Greg wrote the second group of lines....
>> That would make quite an interesting test. How much does
>> ftp.cdrom.com gain by running FreeBSD instead of Solaris ?
>
>Good question. My guess is that Solaris 2 just couldn't handle that
>many connections, but it compete reasonably well with fewer
>connections (say 1000). I'll copy the FreeBSD chat people and see
>what they think.
Interestingly, i noticed recently that the response time on usa.net
seemed much slower. It appears consistently so, either by ppp
connection or by network/T1 line. A few months ago, netcraft showed
that they were running FreeBSD. Guess what they are running
now? Yup... SOlaris. I dropped them a line saying i noticed the speed
difference.
-=> jm <=-
"I've done questionable things, also extraordinary things....
Revel in your time!"
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>From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Fri Jan 28 00:26:41 2000
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Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 09:26:41 -0500
From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com>
To: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8
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On Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 06:04:06PM +1300, Joerg B. Micheel wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 02:56:02PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote:
> > On Wednesday, 26 January 2000 at 17:42:54 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> > >> From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org>
> > >> I think, popularity of Solaris might rather be restricted by its
> > >> performance. I have run Solaris x86 on my desktop for a while for
> > >
> > > Agreed. I have run Solaris (only up thru 2.6 though) in its
> > > "native" environment (Sun hardware) and even there the performance
> > > is not anything one would write home about. The difference between
> > > SunOS 4.1.x and Solaris 2.x is dramatic in favor on the older leaner
> > > system.
> >
> > That's my experience too, but it may not be typical. For a large
> > system with a large number of processes (e.g. ftp server) the
> > comparison could be very different.
>
> That would make quite an interesting test. How much does ftp.cdrom.com
> gain by running FreeBSD instead of Solaris ?
How can anyone know that it gains anything at all? To begin with, it's
never *run* Solaris, so there's no way to draw any kind of meaningful
comparison.
The dirty little secret of Linux and *BSD is that their ascendance has
been tightly coupled to Sun's utter inability to build fast, cheap
uniprocessor machines. Any way you slice it, a single-processor top-of-
the-line x86 box is just going to be a *lot* faster and cheaper than
Sun's entry-level multiprocessor. The great gamble they made was to
turn their kernel into a highly-multithreaded thing of beauty -- but
that *has* to cost some (even some small) amount of uniprocessor
performance, and since they can't build cheap multiprocesors that are
as fast as the high end of the commodity uniprocessor x86 boxes,
for a lot of applications they lose.
Even on a 2- or 4- processor machine, Solaris is demonstrably far
faster than *BSD or Linux for many workloads. But you can buy a
single-processor x86 that's cheaper than Sun's 2- or 4- processor
box now, which is why people run Linux or FreeBSD or NetBSD. There
is still a point at which the only way to get enough performance is
to add more processors, and at that point Solaris still wins, and
will for the forseeable (by me, at least) future.
--
Thor Lancelot Simon tls(a)rek.tjls.com
"And where do all these highways go, now that we are free?"
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>From "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> Fri Jan 28 01:49:19 2000
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From: "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com>
To: <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
References: <200001270142.RAA00523(a)moe.2bsd.com> <20000127145602.P53307(a)freebie.lemis.com> <20000127180406.A574(a)begemot.org> <20000127092641.A16017(a)rek.tjls.com>
Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 08:49:19 -0700
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----- Original Message -----
From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com>
To: Joerg B. Micheel <joerg(a)begemot.org>
Cc: <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 07:26
Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8
> The dirty little secret of Linux and *BSD is that their ascendance has
> been tightly coupled to Sun's utter inability to build fast, cheap
> uniprocessor machines. Any way you slice it, a single-processor top-of-
> the-line x86 box is just going to be a *lot* faster and cheaper than
> Sun's entry-level multiprocessor. The great gamble they made was to
> turn their kernel into a highly-multithreaded thing of beauty -- but
> that *has* to cost some (even some small) amount of uniprocessor
> performance, and since they can't build cheap multiprocesors that are
> as fast as the high end of the commodity uniprocessor x86 boxes,
> for a lot of applications they lose.
>
> Even on a 2- or 4- processor machine, Solaris is demonstrably far
> faster than *BSD or Linux for many workloads. But you can buy a
> single-processor x86 that's cheaper than Sun's 2- or 4- processor
> box now, which is why people run Linux or FreeBSD or NetBSD. There
> is still a point at which the only way to get enough performance is
> to add more processors, and at that point Solaris still wins, and
> will for the forseeable (by me, at least) future.
Another thing to mention is also, that it is very easy to build your own
kernel, exctly for your needs in Linux or *BSD. (removing all
emulations/compatibility modes, ...) so you get a nice small/fast kernel
excactly for your type of machine & workload.
Don't think it's so easy on a sun.
cheers,
emanuel
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>From Mirian Crzig Lennox <lennox(a)alcita.com> Fri Jan 28 02:55:30 2000
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From: Mirian Crzig Lennox <lennox(a)alcita.com>
To: UNIX Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8
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In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey's message of "Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:57:36 +1030"
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Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> writes:
> > After looking at the site, it seems as though Sun is trying to
> > prevent licence holders from sharing code with other licence
> > holders.
>
> I'm not 100% sure what they mean here. Nobody can stop you
> distributing software you wrote as long as it doesn't contain
> proprietary Sun code. You could do that with diffs.
Can I really? Any diffs are necessarily going to contain some of the
original proprietary code. It depends on how aggressive Sun's lawyers
are going to be about preventing any co-operative development of
Solaris which is not mediated by Sun. From their website, it seems
that Sun wants to be firmly in control of that process.
This is in contrast to the Ancient UNIX licence, where it's my
impression that SCO really doesn't care what you do with UNIX so long
as you don't share code with unlicensed people.
> > If this is true, it would certainly make the Solaris licence less
> > desirable to hobbyists than the ancient UNIX licence, unfortunately.
>
> I think it is anyway. For hobby purposes, I'd much rather use either
> 4.4BSD (for modern usage) or one of the old UNIXes.
For practical purposes I agree, although I'm intrigued enough by the
extremely modular design of Solaris to think it might be fun to spend
some time playing with.
--
Mirian Crzig Lennox Systems Anarchist
Invest in America -- buy a Congressman!
Hi all, I've received another e-mail from Alexey about some Y2K software
for Venix and 2BSD. He's also given me a copy of a Russian UNIX called
Demos. This is based on something like V7M, but Alexey says that its
better than Venix. I've only got a tar file with bins & src, no disk
images. Anyone with a pro350 or 380 interested in looking at this?
Anyway, here's his latest e-mail and Date.c. Warren
From: Alexey Chupahin <achupahi(a)uic.rsu.ru>
Hello Warren, I just receive letter from John Rosenberg. He
recommended me to resend date2 program. May be, my previous letter
didn't go to you, but to John? I just try to resend you date2.
The Date2 is good for first. Now I'm hacking RT-11 DIR (analogue
ls in Unix :-), unlike to Unix one, DIR is very bad for Y2k.)
program with system library SYSLIB.OBJ. When I finish it, I just
try to test and fix BSD system. Unfortunatly, I haven't any documents
described BSD library with utilites to see what subroutines/utilites
to be needed to fix. May be, I can find it on the Web? But I have
documentation for Inmos (Russian version7). I use it to see in
first time. Unlike to poor (but very good!) standard Version 7,
Russian one has 2 screen editors, including vi, and one Russian
multiscreen edit RED, editor like small MSWord for Pro, screen
menu-making/control programs and library, graphic, bisness programs
and libraries for Pro. Unfortunatly, I have only documentation,
no any distributive...
When I finish BSD ( I hope to will finish it soon ) I'll just go
to Unix7 and 6. I've got it from your site yet, Version 7 is booted
Ok... May be, vi from BSD still works in Unix7?
> Also, I am still not sure what to do about Demos. It's a pity that
> you don't have a bootable disk image for it.
Ok... Demos was very good-organized Unix for Pro-350/380... more
good then Inmos, how I'm hear...
Unfortunatly, I'm not rich student, but I wish to small used Alpha
for a long time. I find ready to use Multia in Moscow for 450$.
In Russia we have a nearly 18$ per month (Crysis :-( ) I have
360$ yet. May be, anybody can help me for 90$... ;-)
regards,
Alex
Yeah, that's the machine/software. Terrible software, if an honest
attempt no doubt. Belongs in the Computer Museum. (It's such a pain
to use that I would not bother, that is.)
----- Original Message -----
From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)cley.com>
To: <rdkeys(a)unity.ncsu.edu>
Cc: <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2000 11:44 AM
Subject: Re: Anyone know what a Masscomp 5400 (54S-01) is?
> * rdkeys wrote:
> > On a surplus junket, today, I ran across a 2 dollar chassis that was
> > listed as a Masscomp 5400 (54S-01) computer. It looked rather like
> > a DECish based thing with dual height cards, like some sort of
laboratory
> > digital aquisition machine. On the long-shot that it is some sort of
> > PDP-11ish thing, anyone have any recollection or pointers to any info
> > on that kind of a Masscomp machine?
>
> Masscomps were 68k based machines, they had a whole bunch of stuff for
> real-time and data-acquistion type stuff. They ran something called
> RTU -- real-time Unix -- which was a weirdo sysv / BSD hybrid, not fun
> to use. If the 5400 is the machine I remember it's a 68020 machine
> but it may have a lot of cards for other stuff in. If it *is* the
> machine we had it was deeply unreliable. Masscomp got bought by
> someone else later on but I forget who, so they sometimes get badged
> as some other make.
>
> I would run away, fast.
>
> --tim
>
>
On Friday, 21 January 2000 at 16:44:34 +0000, Tim Bradshaw wrote:
> * rdkeys wrote:
>> On a surplus junket, today, I ran across a 2 dollar chassis that was
>> listed as a Masscomp 5400 (54S-01) computer. It looked rather like
>> a DECish based thing with dual height cards, like some sort of laboratory
>> digital aquisition machine. On the long-shot that it is some sort of
>> PDP-11ish thing, anyone have any recollection or pointers to any info
>> on that kind of a Masscomp machine?
>
> Masscomps were 68k based machines, they had a whole bunch of stuff for
> real-time and data-acquistion type stuff. They ran something called
> RTU -- real-time Unix -- which was a weirdo sysv / BSD hybrid, not fun
> to use. If the 5400 is the machine I remember it's a 68020 machine
> but it may have a lot of cards for other stuff in. If it *is* the
> machine we had it was deeply unreliable. Masscomp got bought by
> someone else later on but I forget who, so they sometimes get badged
> as some other make.
>
> I would run away, fast.
On the other hand, IIRC this was the machine which was the basis for
the Egan/Teixeira (sp?) book on writing UNIX drivers. It might be
amusing for that reason alone. If it's functional and you have the
space, you probably won't regret the $2 you spend for it.
Greg
--
Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
On a surplus junket, today, I ran across a 2 dollar chassis that was
listed as a Masscomp 5400 (54S-01) computer. It looked rather like
a DECish based thing with dual height cards, like some sort of laboratory
digital aquisition machine. On the long-shot that it is some sort of
PDP-11ish thing, anyone have any recollection or pointers to any info
on that kind of a Masscomp machine?
Thanks
Bob
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>From Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)cley.com> Sat Jan 22 02:44:34 2000
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Subject: Re: Anyone know what a Masscomp 5400 (54S-01) is?
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* rdkeys wrote:
> On a surplus junket, today, I ran across a 2 dollar chassis that was
> listed as a Masscomp 5400 (54S-01) computer. It looked rather like
> a DECish based thing with dual height cards, like some sort of laboratory
> digital aquisition machine. On the long-shot that it is some sort of
> PDP-11ish thing, anyone have any recollection or pointers to any info
> on that kind of a Masscomp machine?
Masscomps were 68k based machines, they had a whole bunch of stuff for
real-time and data-acquistion type stuff. They ran something called
RTU -- real-time Unix -- which was a weirdo sysv / BSD hybrid, not fun
to use. If the 5400 is the machine I remember it's a 68020 machine
but it may have a lot of cards for other stuff in. If it *is* the
machine we had it was deeply unreliable. Masscomp got bought by
someone else later on but I forget who, so they sometimes get badged
as some other make.
I would run away, fast.
--tim
In article by emanuel stiebler:
> Hi,
> Anybody here, who made some benchmarks of the different simulators (supnik,
> apout, ...)
>
> What I'm looking for is something like:
> supnik version xxx on pentium 2 350 MHz using linux, is xxx times faster
> than a 11/73.
>
> cheers & thanks,
> emanuel
Here's my no-numbers-just-gut-feelings of the various PDP-11 emulators.
John Wilson's Ersatz is probably the fastest; it's written in assembly
code, and so gains a fair bit that way.
Second would be the Begemot emulator. They've unrolled the instruction
decode loop heavily, and that helps a lot.
Bob Supnik's emulator would be the slowest of the three. However, it's
still not that slow, may 1/3 the speed of Ersatz.
Apout can't be compared to the above 3 emulators, because it doesn't emulate
peripherals nor supervisor mode. User-mode instructions run at about the
same speed as Supnik's emulator, but system calls are done by native code.
The sole benchmark I have is: FreeBSD identifies my desktop box as
Pentium II/Xeon/Celeron (348.93-MHz 686-class CPU). Using Apout, I can
compile the 2.11BSD GENERIC kernel in 4 minutes 15 seconds.
I'll try building Supnik and Begemot and getting comparative results.
Last comment: all the simulators have strengths & shortcomings, and that
applies not just to ease of use but also to CPU, I/O performance etc. You
really have to try them all & find the one that suits you.
Warren
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>From "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org> Fri Jan 21 12:45:24 2000
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(envelope-from joerg)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 15:45:24 +1300
From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org>
To: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
Cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>, joerg(a)begemot.org,
"Hartmut B. Brandt" <brandt(a)fokus.gmd.de>
Subject: Re: Emulators
Message-ID: <20000121154524.A71774(a)begemot.org>
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On Fri, Jan 21, 2000 at 01:16:40PM +1100, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by emanuel stiebler:
> > Hi,
> > Anybody here, who made some benchmarks of the different simulators (supnik,
> > apout, ...)
> >
> > What I'm looking for is something like:
> > supnik version xxx on pentium 2 350 MHz using linux, is xxx times faster
> > than a 11/73.
Us too! :-)
The problem is that it doesn't scale that simple. Each and every
instruction has the parsing overhead. Next comes execution overhead.
You'll find that the parsing is pretty constant, no matter whether
it is a NOP or some sophisticated MUL command. The execution speed
varies heavily, very often it is alot faster than the original
hardware. IO has seen a tremendous speedup, we can benefit here
from todays hardware alot. Just remeber how long it took to get
a prompt or echo when hitting the keyboard. As a result, the
original feeling of the real machine is lost, very unfortunate.
As a rough summary, simple commands do not improve (much), whereas
everything complex speeds up with the emulator. Harti has done quite
a bit of testing on different instructions and compared them to an
LSI11/73 (KDJ11A). The emulator was run on a i486 at the time. Have
a look at the p11 distribution, it should be in Tests somewhere.
Regards,
Joerg
--
Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)begemot.org>
Begemot Computer Associates Phone: +64 7 8562148
40 Masters Avenue, Hillcrest Fax: +64 7 8562148
Hamilton, New Zealand Pager: +64 868 38222
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Hi all,
Several new things have arrived in the PUPS Archive, so I thought
I'd pass on details of what and where.
Tim Shoppa has found & recovered the tapes from the following Usenix
conferences: 1983, 1987, 1988 and 1989. Their contents are now in
Applications/Shoppa_Tapes in the archive.
Dennis Ritchie has sent in two DECtape images, s1-bits and s2-bits.
s2-bits dates from 1972, and contains several 1st Edition binaries and
the binaries of an early C compiler. s1-bits is part of a disk image,
but I've been able to recover some of its contents: some application
source in both assembly and C. It seems to date from early 1973. Both
tapes are in Distributions/research/1972_stuff in the archive.
By using the C compiler binaries on s2-bits, I've been able to recompile
the two primeval C compilers whose source is in Applications/Early_C_Compilers
and which are described by Dennis on his web page at
http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/dmr/primevalC.html
Most recently, Dennis has also unearthed the on-line manual pages for
3rd and 4th Edition UNIX. They are in Distributions/research/Dennis_v3
and Distributions/research/Dennis_v3, respectively.
It still looks like all kernel code before 5th Edition is gone, except
for the nsys kernel code in Distributions/research/Dennis_v3 and a few bits
on paper that Dennis has.
Cheers,
Warren
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>From "A. P. Garcia" <apg(a)execpc.com> Fri Jan 21 03:25:39 2000
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> Several new things have arrived in the PUPS Archive, so I thought
> I'd pass on details of what and where.
Could someone please burn a new snapshot of the archive for me? I'm happy
to compensate you, of course.
Thanks,
Phil Garcia
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA
Please do not trash me on this one! I think that 4000 series µVAX is just a little more than I need. Would anyone care to swap this puppy for a table-top PDP-8 or PDP-11 of any sort? I have a working machine & keyboard; it wants your basic RGB with or without sync (i.e. sync on green). Whaddadya think? Happy new year! --JCR
On Fri, Jan 14, 2000 at 07:52:53PM -0500, Tim Shoppa wrote:
> As the possibly only member of this list who still makes a living writing
> MACRO-11 code, I'm gonna take two shots at this:
I believe the SEP RELAG-3 system (www.sep.de) is based on LSI-11, not sure
it is written in assembler, though. Perhaps Torsten could tell ...
Joerg
--
Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)begemot.org>
Begemot Computer Associates Phone: +64 7 8562148
40 Masters Avenue, Hillcrest Fax: +64 7 8562148
Hamilton, New Zealand Pager: +64 868 38222
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>From Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> Tue Jan 18 15:17:43 2000
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From: Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu>
Message-Id: <200001180517.VAA04673(a)chiton.ucsd.edu>
To: SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com
Subject: Re: macro-11 for V7-Unix
Cc: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
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> From owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Fri Jan 14 17:09 PST 2000
> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 19:52:53 -0500
> From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
> To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
> Subject: Re: macro-11 for V7-Unix
>
> >In article by Prof. Karl Kleine:
> >> once upon a time, it was around 1981, I used a pdp11/45 with V7
> >> (I started my life with Unix with V6 in 1977/8), doing some research
> >> in compilers, portability, dense code schemes for interpreters.
> >> For that I used a port of DEC MACRO-11 to Unix. There was also
> >>...
> >> I have the Supnik emulator to play with, and I wonder if this
> >> macro-11 and linker is still somewhere around. I would love to
> >> prepare a few examples for my lessons here (I'm a professor in
>
> >Hi Karl, I think this came up on Usenet recently. No I don't know
> >of a port of Macro-11 to Unix. I'll pass this on to our mailing list,
> >just in case anybody knows of it.
>
> As the possibly only member of this list who still makes a living writing
> MACRO-11 code, I'm gonna take two shots at this:
>
> One possibility is the "as11" assembler from Xinu. It's a fairly portable
> PDP-11 assembler, but doesn't have all the real macro facilities of
> real Macro-11. You can find this at
>
> http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/xinu/un…
>
> The other (and more likely) possibility is the "m11" macro package from
> Harvard, which *does* come with a linker ("l11") as Karl described. The
> full distribution is in the 2.11BSD source tree, at "/usr/src/new/m11".
>
> Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Let me toss in another possibility. Around that time (late 70's -
early 80's) we (Marine Physical Lab) were running an RT-11 emulator on
a couple of our PDP-11 Unix systems. Product of Human Computing
Resources, as I remember. Once you can emulate RT-11, you can run all
of its CUSPs: assembler, linker, Fortran, what have you. Assuming, of
course, that you have appropriate licenses etc.
We did it to get a reasonably capable Fortran compiler with our Unix.
carl
carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego
{decvax|ucbvax} !ucsd!mpl!cdl cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu
clowenstein(a)ucsd.edu
In article by Prof. Karl Kleine:
>
> Dear Warren,
>
> once upon a time, it was around 1981, I used a pdp11/45 with V7
> (I started my life with Unix with V6 in 1977/8), doing some research
> in compilers, portability, dense code schemes for interpreters.
> For that I used a port of DEC MACRO-11 to Unix. There was also
> an associated linker and the package offered also Fortran, though
> I didnt't use the latter. As far as I remember, this port was
> done at Harvard and distributed to some academic sites. I was
> at the University of Nijmegen, The Netherlands, at that time.
>
> I have the Supnik emulator to play with, and I wonder if this
> macro-11 and linker is still somewhere around. I would love to
> prepare a few examples for my lessons here (I'm a professor in
> computer science these days, at the University of Applied Sciences
> here in Jena).
>
> Any ideas? Might there be copies in yours archive? I would like
> to know before I go through the motions of getting teh SCO source
> licence and all that...
>
> Thanks for your help!
> Karl Kleine
Hi Karl, I think this came up on Usenet recently. No I don't know
of a port of Macro-11 to Unix. I'll pass this on to our mailing list,
just in case anybody knows of it.
Cheers,
Warren
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>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Sat Jan 15 10:52:53 2000
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>In article by Prof. Karl Kleine:
>> once upon a time, it was around 1981, I used a pdp11/45 with V7
>> (I started my life with Unix with V6 in 1977/8), doing some research
>> in compilers, portability, dense code schemes for interpreters.
>> For that I used a port of DEC MACRO-11 to Unix. There was also
>>...
>> I have the Supnik emulator to play with, and I wonder if this
>> macro-11 and linker is still somewhere around. I would love to
>> prepare a few examples for my lessons here (I'm a professor in
>Hi Karl, I think this came up on Usenet recently. No I don't know
>of a port of Macro-11 to Unix. I'll pass this on to our mailing list,
>just in case anybody knows of it.
As the possibly only member of this list who still makes a living writing
MACRO-11 code, I'm gonna take two shots at this:
One possibility is the "as11" assembler from Xinu. It's a fairly portable
PDP-11 assembler, but doesn't have all the real macro facilities of
real Macro-11. You can find this at
http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/xinu/un…
The other (and more likely) possibility is the "m11" macro package from
Harvard, which *does* come with a linker ("l11") as Karl described. The
full distribution is in the 2.11BSD source tree, at "/usr/src/new/m11".
Here's the man page - look at the "NOTES" section near the bottom for
the history.
M11(1) M11(1)
NAME
m11 - Macro-11 assembler for UNIX
SYNOPSIS
m11 [ option1 option2 ... ] file1 file2 ... filen
DESCRIPTION
M11 assembles the concatenation of the specified files
(file1, etc.) and terminates when an ``.end'' statement
is encountered. The resulting object file is usually
named filen.obj (see below). If a file argument, filei
does not contain a ``.'' in its name, the file filei.m11
will be sought before filei itself.
Options, if desired, may appear anywhere in the command,
and are chosen from the following list. All options are
interpreted before any files are read.
-ls Produce an assembly listing and place in filen.lst
-lt Produce an assembly listing on the standard output.
-fl If coupled with the -ls or -lt directives, makes
the listing have a shortened format. It is short<AD>
hand for -nl:seq:loc:bin:bex:me:meb:ttm:toc:sym.
-uc Simulate an initial .dsabl lc directive. Force all
characters in macro definitions to be upper case.
This flag makes lower-case handling in m11 compat<AD>
able with the DEC Macro-11 assemblers.
-um Force all characters in macro definitions to be
upper case. This flag makes lower-case handling in
this release of m11 compatable with previous ver<AD>
sions of m11.
-de Make all option choices needed to make assembly
mimic DEC Macro-11. Implies (inter alia) the -uc
flag. This includes the Johns Hopkins asm assem<AD>
bler.
-ha Make all option choices needed to make assembly
mimic earlier (Harvard) releases of m11. This
implies the -um flag. Default .psect and .csect
attributes are set up in the funny Harvard way.
-mx Produce a listing of the source program as it
appears after macro expansion. Macro calls, condi<AD>
tional directives and so on appear in the listing
as comments. Listing appears on standard output.
No machine code is generated or listed. This
option is meant to correspond to the -E or -P
options of the C compiler cc(1).
-my Like -mx, except that macro calls and conditional
directives do not show up in the listing.
-10 Generate an error whenever op codes not in the
PDP-11 ``standard instruction set'' are encoun<AD>
tered. Programmers writing for a PDP 11/10 can
catch instructions illegal for that machine by
using this argument.
-dp:args
The default attributes for a .psect or unnamed
.csect are redefined, using the colon-separated
list args of valid .psect attributes.
-da:args
The default attributes for an .asect are redefined.
-dp:c The default attributes for a named .csect are rede<AD>
fined.
-li:arglist
Simulate an initial .list arglist directive. All
.list and .nlist directives in the program text
which attempt to change the settings established
with the -li flag will be ignored.
-nl:arglist
Like -li:arglist, but for the .nlist directive.
-en:arglist
Similarly, for the .enabl directive.
-ds:arglist
Similarly, but for the .dsabl directive.
-cr:arglist
Produces a cross-reference listing. If the -ls
option is also included, the cross-reference list<AD>
ing will follow the assembly listing in filen.lst.
References which are tagged with the symbol # are
definitions. References tagged with * are destuc<AD>
tive references: the value of the symbol or vari<AD>
able in question is changed. Arglist consists of
colon-separated keywords from the following set.
The keywords may be prefix abbreviated:
sym All user-defined symbols are indexed.
mac All macro names are indexed.
per All uses of permanent symbols - op codes,
directives, etc - are indexed.
pse All psect names are indexed. For compata<AD>
bility with the RT-11 CREF program, the
argument cse is synonymous with pse.
err All errors are indexed.
reg All register uses are indexed.
If no arglist is specified the default sym:mac:err
is used. In the listing page and line numbers for
uses of symbols are followed by a # sign if the
symbol is defined and by a * sign if the symbol is
modified.
-lp Same as -ls, but also spools filen.lst for printing
upon completion.
-no No object file is produced. This is useful for
syntax checking or list producing.
-xs:n Allots nK words of extra space for symbol table and
macro storage. NOTE: This option is currently
inoperative: m11 automatically allots core for its
tables as needed.
-xx Debug flag: generate all kinds of wierd hack flack.
-ns No symbol table is included in the object file
(thus ddt knows of no symbols from this assembly).
-sx Make the symbol table contain ``local symbols'' as
well as ordinary symbols.
-u Treat form feed characters as spaces. This will
make m11's idea of line numbers coincide with the
UNIX text editors. Macro-11 statements containing
imbedded form feed characters will be parsed dif<AD>
ferently when the -u flag is in effect.
-na:file
Override the convention of using last name as file
name. Instead, use names file.obj and file.lst for
object and listing files.
NOTES
This implementation of Macro-11 is a distant hand-me down
from an old DEC Macro-11 modified at Harvard University in
the early 1970's. It is grubby with smudges by Brent
Byer, F. J. Howard, Bob Bowering, and Jim Reeds. It does
not implement keyword arguments such as are described in
section 7.3.6 of the DEC manual. The .enabl abs option
does not work. Listing control is by default .list ttm.
Unlike earlier editions of m11 at UCB and at Harvard, it
does treat immediate constants of floating point opera<AD>
tions correctly: see the last paragraph of section 6.4.2
on the middle of page 6-27 of the DEC manual. M11 has
several directives not described in the DEC manual. See
the New UCB M11 Manual. The default attributes for
.psects are different from those described in the DEC man<AD>
ual, but may be changed by the -dp flag. The .enabl glb
feature is implemented: undefined symbols are taken as
undefined global externals.
FILES
/usr/share/misc/sysmac.smlsystem macro library (for .mcall
directive)
filen.xrf intermediate cross-reference temporary
file
lpr(1) spooler
/usr/ucb/macxrf cross-reference post-processor
SEE ALSO
PDP-11 MACRO-11 Language Reference Manual , Digital Equip<AD>
ment Corp. Order No. AA-5075A-TC, August 1977.
New UCB M11 Manual , notional document by Jim Reeds.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
I just wrote:
> [...]
> --
> Michael Sokolov 2695 VILLA CREEK DR STE 240
> Software Engineer DALLAS TX 75234-7329 USA
> JP Systems, Inc. Phone: +1-972-484-5432 x247
> or +1-888-665-2460 x247
> E-mail: msokolov(a)meson.jpsystems.com Fax: +1-972-484-4154
Argh! Used the wrong sig file again! Here is the right one:
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Computer Operation Facility
Special Agent 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY #4
International Free Computing Task Force DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693
ARPA INET: msokolov(a)meson.jpsystems.com
I guess I'll keep bumping into this one until I set up separate mail addresses
for my two affiliations and subscribe to all lists from the right one... Sorry
about that.
John Rosenberg <jcrosenberg(a)earthlink.net> wrote:
> Recently I came into posession of a MicroVAX 4000 series machine at an
> auction, and the question now is: What do I do with the darned thing?
The right answer for you is the Quasijarus project. See its WWW page at:
http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
The project has a mailing list to which I have already subscribed you. To post
to the list, send to quasijarus(a)meson.jpsystems.com. If anyone else wants to
subscribe, drop a line to quasijarus-request(a)meson.jpsystems.com.
--
Michael Sokolov 2695 VILLA CREEK DR STE 240
Software Engineer DALLAS TX 75234-7329 USA
JP Systems, Inc. Phone: +1-972-484-5432 x247
or +1-888-665-2460 x247
E-mail: msokolov(a)meson.jpsystems.com Fax: +1-972-484-4154
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On a recent expedition, I recovered some additional USENIX tapes:
Usenix 83
Usenix 87
Usenix 88
Usenix 89
Now, none of these are as "classic" as the current Usenix tapes in the
PUPS archive (by my searching, Usenix 77, 78, 79, 80, and 81.) Is
there perhaps some other on-line archive out there that would be
interested in copies of these tapes? My E-mails to various addresses
on www.usenix.org so far have left me with the impression that they
have no library of material older than 1993 and they have no interest
in older material, though I strongly suspect that I'm talking with all
the wrong people.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
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>From "John Rosenberg" <jcrosenberg(a)earthlink.net> Thu Jan 13 02:03:04 2000
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From: "John Rosenberg" <jcrosenberg(a)earthlink.net>
To: <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>, "Unix Heritage Society" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
References: <200001100540.QAA64928(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: New member
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 11:03:04 -0500
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Kind greetings, all. I am a new member of the Society, and have been
delighted with the messages I have seen.
Recently I came into posession of a MicroVAX 4000 series machine at an
auction, and the question now is: What do I do with the darned thing? It was
really a bargain I could not pass up; and I'm pretty sure that it is in
entirely usable condition. (I still have to fully test it.)
Suggesetions? I have no Web site to run, even if I did want to spend the
money on the required infrastructure & maintenance.
Much obliged in advance, and again, I am more than happy to have joined the
Society.
John Rosenberg
33 Pond Ave. #601
Brookline, MA 02445
617-277-7868
jcrosenberg(a)earthlink.net (generally preferred)
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Hi All,
With a lot of help from Norman Wilson, Tim Shoppa and Dennis Ritchie
himself, I've been able to modify my Apout emulator to run the 2nd Edition
UNIX C compiler binaries. Using these, I've been able to recompile the
`last1120' C compiler described by Dennis on his web page at:
http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/primevalC.html
The new version of Apout, as always, is available at:
ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/pub/PDP-11/Sims/Apout/
I've also put the source code to the last1120 C compiler in UnixBins/
Soren also pointed out a code problem stopping compilation on NetBSD,
which has been fixed.
Cheers all,
Warren
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>From "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Tue Jan 11 01:08:33 2000
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Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 07:08:33 -0800
From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com>
Subject: I need help rewriting the 2.11BSD bootblock...
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
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Problem as follows:
I have a PDP-11/44, 2 DZ11s, a (currently nonfunctional) Emulex TC12
tape controller, a Pertec-type drive for that (known working), and a
Viking UDT MSCP <> SCSI disk controller. Problem is, the Viking doesn't
raise the RACMDI bit upon completion of a command because interrupts are
off, so the boot loops forever. I tried taking out the test for RACMDI
and just putting in delay loops, but that doesn't work. (The boot hangs
later on trying to reset the controller. I dunno if the I/O went or not.)
The controller and system are known good. I can put RT-11 back on the disk
and it will run fine (excepting the date). I have a 200 meg SCSI-1 drive
on there, it will get a 540 meg drive later.
Anyway, I need to change the boot. I was told others had this problem too.
I lack MSCP docs and don't really have the knowledge to do this. Can someone
help me, or at least point me at someone who can? I'm more or less stuck for
now.
-------
So far as I know (from conversations with insiders in the past), no system
was ever shipped out of Bell Labs with Ken's self-healing trojan horse in
login and the C compiler. (For those who don't remember, both programs
were involved: login buggered so that a secret string was always accepted
as a valid password for any login; the compiler buggered to recognize when
compiling login or itself, and reinsert the buggery. Hence one can remove
the buggered sources, but as long as the binaries remain, so will the bugs.)
Ken's Turing Award lecture doesn't say whether those programs were ever
shipped to the public. He probably left it dangling on purpose, since
the point he is trying to make is that it isn't just code you have to trust,
but the programmer who wrote it; you cannot possibly know everything that's
going on inside unless you created everything involved, including compilers
and assemblers and the operating system.
Dennis's Turing Award lecture in the same issue of CACM is worth re-reading too,
especially for those who think that Open Source is a cure for the common
cold or that it was invented in the 1990s or 1980s.
Norman Wilson
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Jan 6 19:45:17 2000
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <200001060945.UAA35060(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: CVS Repository for UNIX
In-Reply-To: <200001060909.UAA48145(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> from "norman(a)nose.cita.utoronto.ca" at "Jan 6, 2000 4: 8:52 am"
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 20:45:17 +1100 (EST)
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In article by norman(a)nose.cita.utoronto.ca:
> I would argue strongly that the archive should contain absolutely pure
> copies of any historic objects, whether they were proper distributions
> or just snapshots like most of the older boot images. It's important
> to preserve accurate, unbowdlerized history; that is part of what we
> should be doing.
I agree completely.
> Even using a CVS repository somehow doesn't feel kosher to me, though
> that is probably silly as long as it is possible (and clear how) to
> extract the unimproved original, and as long as the very original
> distribution or dump tape or whatnot is kept around too so that future
> archaeologists have the right thing to study.
With CVS you can tag releases, and so you can extract back from a known
release. You can have branches at various points too, and also merge
branches. However, it really needs a CVS guru to make it work properly.
And, of course, when we get to BSD, we should bring the existing
SCCS deltas into the CVS tree, too.
The CVS idea can be someone else's project :-)
Warren
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>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Thu Jan 6 23:16:41 2000
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Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 8:16:41 -0500
From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Message-Id: <000106081641.202001e1(a)trailing-edge.com>
Subject: Re: Viral Unix Compiler
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>So far as I know (from conversations with insiders in the past), no system
>was ever shipped out of Bell Labs with Ken's self-healing trojan horse in
>login and the C compiler. (For those who don't remember, both programs
>were involved: login buggered so that a secret string was always accepted
>as a valid password for any login; the compiler buggered to recognize when
>compiling login or itself, and reinsert the buggery. Hence one can remove
>the buggered sources, but as long as the binaries remain, so will the bugs.)
>
>Ken's Turing Award lecture doesn't say whether those programs were ever
>shipped to the public. He probably left it dangling on purpose, since
>the point he is trying to make is that it isn't just code you have to trust,
>but the programmer who wrote it; you cannot possibly know everything that's
>going on inside unless you created everything involved, including compilers
>and assemblers and the operating system.
Perhaps Ken went even further and distributed buggered binaries of 'od'
as well (along with a 'cc' patch to re-insert the 'od' hole),
so those attempting to hand disassemble the code to *check* for
the existence of the security hole wouldn't find it.
The 'cc+login' hole is nice, sweet, and self-consistent. Attempting
to patch all the other tools to make it impossible to find these holes
sounds incredibly more complicated. Maybe it was just the way Ken
so clearly presented the "how to" lesson that makes anything I try to add
onto it sound incredibly awkward.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
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>From John Foust <jfoust(a)threedee.com> Fri Jan 7 00:23:43 2000
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To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
From: John Foust <jfoust(a)threedee.com>
Subject: Re: Viral Unix Compiler
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Has it ever been independently established that this viral
version of the compiler ever actually existed, or was this
just a parable about viral code?
- John
Tim Shoppa:
This brings up a question: should fixes (and I mean fundamental fixes
like Y2K ones) be incorporated back into the boot images in the archive, or
should they be left in their "pristine" state? (Yes, i know, some of
those boot images aren't quite so pristine.)
I would argue strongly that the archive should contain absolutely pure
copies of any historic objects, whether they were proper distributions
or just snapshots like most of the older boot images. It's important
to preserve accurate, unbowdlerized history; that is part of what we
should be doing.
There's nothing wrong with keeping fixed-up versions too, but but they
should be clearly distinguished from the historic originals. (Perhaps
we could label them `ancient' and `primary platform'?)
Even using a CVS repository somehow doesn't feel kosher to me, though
that is probably silly as long as it is possible (and clear how) to
extract the unimproved original, and as long as the very original
distribution or dump tape or whatnot is kept around too so that future
archaeologists have the right thing to study.
Norman Wilson
684 Crawford Street, Toronto
(Formerly 696 Crawford Street before a renumbering in the 1950s;
I keep thinking of putting the old number up too.)
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In article by Tim Shoppa:
> This brings up a question: should fixes (and I mean fundamental fixes
> like Y2K ones) be incorporated back into the boot images in the archive, or
> should they be left in their "pristine" state? (Yes, i know, some of
> those boot images aren't quite so pristine.)
I'd agree to both. Mind you, once you start patching, where do you stop?
We could bring V6 up to being POSIX compatible with an ANSI C compiler :-)
Seriously, at one stage I did think of trying to check-in every version of
UNIX we have into a single CVS repository. Problem is, files have moved
around, and I want to leave gaps just in case we ever get the missing versions.
> As long as we're on the topic, which versions of Unix had the C
> compiler recognize when it was recompiling [/bin/login] and put a back
> door in for the developers?
I might ask Dennis for the details. From memory, the binaries never got out
of the Labs, and it would have been around the time of V6. Also from memory,
this was the topic of Ken's speech when he won the Turing award. I wonder if
the article is lying around somewhere.
Warren
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>From Andru Luvisi <luvisi(a)andru.sonoma.edu> Thu Jan 6 07:01:27 2000
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From: Andru Luvisi <luvisi(a)andru.sonoma.edu>
To: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Viral Unix Compiler
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On Thu, 6 Jan 2000, Warren Toomey wrote:
[snip]
> I might ask Dennis for the details. From memory, the binaries never got out
> of the Labs, and it would have been around the time of V6. Also from memory,
> this was the topic of Ken's speech when he won the Turing award. I wonder if
> the article is lying around somewhere.
http://www.acm.org/classics/sep95/
Andru
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>From "J. Capp" <jcapp(a)wilkes.kp.net> Thu Jan 6 07:33:48 2000
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From: "J. Capp" <jcapp(a)wilkes.kp.net>
To: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Viral Unix Compiler
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On Thu, 6 Jan 2000, Warren Toomey wrote:
>
> I might ask Dennis for the details. From memory, the binaries never got out
> of the Labs, and it would have been around the time of V6. Also from memory,
> this was the topic of Ken's speech when he won the Turing award. I wonder if
> the article is lying around somewhere.
>
Ken's speech "Reflections on Trusting Trust", was published in the
Communication of the ACM, Vol. 27, No. 8, August 1984. It describes this
"trojan horse" in great detail. But I do believe from this article that
it was an example of what could be done, not necessarily something that
was ever released into the hands of the public.
Jim Capp
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Michael Sokolov grumbled:
> Warren's note reminds me of a few other Y2K bugs I've spotted that affect
> ancient UNIX:
^^^^^^^
Would you please avoid that term? It is offensive to those for whom Kernighan/
Ritchie/Thompson/Berkeley UNIX is the primary and sole computing platform.
Thank you.
If the shoe doesn't fit, feel free not to wear it. I certainly didn't have
`Kernighan/Ritchie/Thompson/Berkeley UNIX' in mind; I rarely do, as I am
much more interested in ancient systems.
Chuckling all the way to the rest home,
Norman Wilson
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Wed Jan 5 19:33:12 2000
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From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: norman(a)nose.cita.utoronto.ca
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Subject: Re: 200(0) Ancient UNIX Licenses
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On Tuesday, 4 January 2000 at 7:08:51 -0500, norman(a)nose.cita.utoronto.ca wrote:
> Warren's note reminds me of a few other Y2K bugs I've spotted that affect
> ancient UNIX:
> - date: no way to set the date past 1999 unless in the present year,
> because two-digit input.
I didn't have any problem with 2.11BSD. I just supplied 00 for the
year. Which release were you using?
Greg
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>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Wed Jan 5 23:23:18 2000
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Greg wrote:
>On Tuesday, 4 January 2000 at 7:08:51 -0500, norman(a)nose.cita.utoronto.ca wrote:
>> Warren's note reminds me of a few other Y2K bugs I've spotted that affect
>> ancient UNIX:
>> - date: no way to set the date past 1999 unless in the present year,
>> because two-digit input.
>I didn't have any problem with 2.11BSD. I just supplied 00 for the
>year. Which release were you using?
That's because I did the fix for 2.11BSD back when I was Y2K-ing all
my PDP-11 sources a few years ago, and Steven incorporated it into the
distribution. The fix was quick and dirty, but works fine because
Unix effectively has an expiration date of 2038 when the signed 32-bit time
word goes negative, so it's easy enough to window the centuries.
This brings up a question: should fixes (and I mean fundamental fixes
like Y2K ones) be incorporated back into the boot images in the archive, or
should they be left in their "pristine" state? (Yes, i know, some of
those boot images aren't quite so pristine.)
As long as we're on the topic, which versions of Unix had the C
compiler recognize when it was recompiling the kernel and put a back
door in for the developers? And of course the C compiler recognized
when it was recompiling itself and made sure that the this recognition
code was also inserted. As I understand it, the distributed sources
never had this security hole in them, only the binaries, but of course
the binaries self-perpetuated the security hole even if you recompiled them.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
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>From "A. P. Garcia" <apg(a)execpc.com> Thu Jan 6 00:46:13 2000
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> This brings up a question: should fixes (and I mean fundamental fixes
> like Y2K ones) be incorporated back into the boot images in the archive, or
> should they be left in their "pristine" state? (Yes, i know, some of
> those boot images aren't quite so pristine.)
Ideally, both. Perhaps boot images with these fixes should be available,
yes, but so should the originals.
> As long as we're on the topic, which versions of Unix had the C
> compiler recognize when it was recompiling the kernel and put a back
> door in for the developers?
Good question! I don't know, but it was actually the login command...
Here's Brian Kernighan's note on troff and Y2K:
in n1.c, numtab[YR] is set to localtime()->tm_year, which is the
number of years since 1900. in 2000, this will contain 100.
the troff manual says that \n(yr contains "the last two digits of
the current year", but nowhere in the code is this set, and the
year can be set to anything. so it's really "the current year
minus 1900". the manual and the code are
inconsistent, which is always a problem.
in any case, in most installations troff and nroff are legacy
systems for which there is no source code, so changing them is
not feasible. furthermore, any change to troff is likely to
require changes in macro packages anyway, and may cause silent
errors by conflicting with current behavior or colliding with
previously unused names.
fortunately, it seems straightforward to fix the macro packages
that are the most likely sources of problem; individual macro
packages will have to be fixed by individuals. grepping for
"yr" will find most trouble spots.
typical macros packages use \n(yr in two ways. one is
ds ]W (printed \n(mo/\n(dy/\n(yr)
which assumes that the year is 2 digits and to be printed as 2
digits. presumably the first day of 2000 is to be printed as
1/1/00, so the fix here is to set register yr to 2 digits
.nr yr \n(yr%100
either once at the beginning (under the assumption that the year
isn't changed by the macro package) or each time \n(yr is going
to be used (providing locality at the price of more changes).
the other common usage is
.ds ]W \*(]m \n(dy, 19\n(yr
the easiest way to fix this is to add, at the beginning again,
.nr yr 1900+\n(yr
and change all subsequent uses from 19\n(yr to \n(yr.
any macro package that uses both of these constructions will need
a bit more care to unify things; the easiest fix is likely to be
two registers, one with the full year and one with the last two
digits.
.nr YR 1900+\n(yr \" 4-digit year
.nr yr \n(yr%100 \" last two digits
this will break code that happened to use this register name.
some macro packages (e.g., -mm) try to be clever about dates,
and include explicit tests to determine whether a user-provided
date has 2 or 4 digits, and then adjust by 1900; this is another
case that has to be fiddled by hand.
any approach that changes register yr at the beginning fails if
the year is set explicitly later on, as it might be by some of
the date macros in -ms and -mm. this still seems like the best
fix, however.
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