In article by David O'Brien:
> I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I
> guess one needs to be created) would be possible.
I will create one today or tomorrow:
tuhs(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Unix Heritage
pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au PDP-11 Unix
You will all be subscribed to both lists. To be removed from a list,
send e-mail to majordomo(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au with the line
unsubscribe pups, or
unsubscribe tuhs
For those on the digested list (twice weekly), ditto except
unsubscribe pups-digest, or
unsubscribe tuhs-digest
I will announce the new list(s) using them as a vehicle soon. That way,
the announcement becomes some test mail :)
Until then, tolerate the system-specific e-mail for just a bit longer.
Cheers,
Warren
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>From "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> Tue Jun 13 08:55:42 2000
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From: "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com>
To: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
Cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: New Unix Heritage List, was Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE
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On Tue, Jun 13, 2000 at 08:50:48AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by David O'Brien:
> > I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I
> > guess one needs to be created) would be possible.
Hi Warren,
I was wrong for my email. The feed back has been that people like the
combined list. I have to admit I too like to see some of the PDP-11
info. I just felt the last thread had gotten off topic when it moved on
to purely PDP-11 hardware. I have been told I was wrong.
--
-- David (obrien(a)NUXI.com)
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue Jun 13 09:05:56 2000
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Subject: Re: New Unix Heritage List, was Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE
In-Reply-To: <20000612155542.G27421(a)dragon.nuxi.com> from "David O'Brien" at "Jun 12, 2000 3:55:42 pm"
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In article by David O'Brien:
> I was wrong for my email. The feed back has been that people like the
> combined list. I have to admit I too like to see some of the PDP-11
> info. I just felt the last thread had gotten off topic when it moved on
> to purely PDP-11 hardware. I have been told I was wrong.
> -- David (obrien(a)NUXI.com)
Everybody, here is a person who has courage & honesty. Thanks for that, David.
However, I will still create two groups, because it will allow
more specific content to be addressed where relevant.
Cheers!
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue Jun 13 10:40:04 2000
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: New: PDP-11 Unix Mailing List
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:40:04 +1000 (EST)
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Hello,
This is to inform you that you are subscribed to the PDP Unix
Preservation Society's mailing list at pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au. This
list is specifically to deal with running versions of Unix on the PDP-11
platforms. If you are not interested in this topic, please send some e-mail
to majordomo(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au with the folllwing line in the body of
the message:
unsubscribe pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
If you are subscribed to the digest version, then you can unsubscribe by
sending e-mail to majordomo(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au with the folllwing line
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unsubscribe pups-digest(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Cheers!
Warren
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>From Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Tue Jun 13 18:07:05 2000
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To: tfb(a)cley.com
Cc: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
In-reply-to: <14660.61330.622418.671382(a)cley.com> (message from Tim Bradshaw
on Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:11:30 +0100 (BST))
Subject: Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD)
References: <000609165909.20200fd8(a)trailing-edge.com>
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> Delivered-To: leypold(a)lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)cley.com>
> Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:11:30 +0100 (BST)
> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
>
> * David O'Brien wrote:
>
> > This goes back to the UHS / PUPS discussion. I didn't vote so before,
> > but maybe it is time to separate the mail for the two. I agree that the
> > first posts were interesting in the historical insight that could be
> > gained. But this thread has turned into a rather long hardware
> > discussion applicable to only a handful of people that have this
> > hardware.
>
> > I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I
> > guess one needs to be created) would be possible.
>
> Please don't. I love reading discussions of random old bits of
> hardware, and such discussions have gone on on the PUPS list for a
> long time.
So do I. Actually I can understand the need of some participants to
somehow reduce their mail volume. On the other side, it seems to be
quite difficult to draw the exact line between on- and
offtopic. Personally I try to filter as good as I can, and admittedly I
do not read everything at once (and sometimes only weeks later).
Regards -- Markus
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Jun 13 04:49:12 2000
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To: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: Re: Future Direction for PUPS and UHS
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On Thursday, 1 June 2000 at 10:25:34 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> All,
> A discussion has started up on the PUPS volunteers list about the
> future direction we should take in terms of the PUPS Archive.
>
> For those people new to this list, here's a bit of background. Originally
> I set up the PDP-11 UNIX Preservation Society, the mailing list and the
> Archive as that was my interest.
>
> Since then, we've attracted people with interests in other Unixes, such
> as the 4BSDs, and other hardware platforms such as the Vax, the 68k Suns
> etc.
>
> A while back, I changed the charter of the mailing list to encompass any
> Unix-related questions, epecially to those systems which are now treated
> as `ancient' by the mainstream, even if they are being maintained (e.g
> 2.11BSD and the Quasijarus project).
>
> I also tried to create an umbrella organisation, the Unix Heritage Society
> (http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/) which would allow a number of groups
> like PUPS and Quasijarus to form, and so that we could co-ordinate their
> efforts. I must admit I haven't put much effort into this idea.
>
> Now, the PUPS Archive (PUPS in name, but it contains lots more than PDP-11
> stuff) is accumulating more and more stuff. Some people want to see a
> mainly PDP-11 archive, other want to try and archive everything before it
> goes off to /dev/null.
>
> So, I want to survey the mailing list here for ideas about the charter of
> the Unix Heritage Society, and a way of setting up one or multiple archives,
> mailing lists, web pages etc. as I originally envisioned.
>
> Questions:
> - should we keep one archive, or have multiple archives?
I don't really think it makes any difference. Structure one archive
well, and you can get the individual platform archives simply by going
down a directory level. The problem is, of course, that some software
can be relevant to multiple platforms.
> - if one, what structure (divisions on platforms, on vendors etc.)
I'd be inclined to go for the hardware platform, but I haven't thought
it through. Ultimately it would probably depend on the nature of the
software that came in.
> - if you have a keen interest in one platform/system, would you
> consider becoming the leader of an interest group that could
> sit under the Unix Heritage Society umbrella?
No, I don't think so. But you might be able to twist my arm.
> - do you want to set up and maintain a more specific archive,
> mailing list, web site, that the Unix Heritage Society could
> point to?
No.
> - do you want this current mailing list to stay ``all-encompassing'',
> or would you rather have more specific lists?
Personally I'd like it to be all-encompassing, but then, it's only a
small part of the 1000 messages I get per day, and it's easy to delete
messages I don't want to read.
> [ now stands back for the deluge! ]
That really happened, didn't it?
Greg
--
Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
Hi,
(Sorry if this is a FAQ)
I'm trying to boot the 2.11_rp_unknown image from Boot_Images.
This is what happens:
----------------------
gibbon:/net/scharfzahn/playing/boot_images$ pdp11
PDP-11 simulator V2.3d
sim> set cpu 18b
sim> att rp0 2.11_rp_unknown
sim> boot rp
53Boot from xp(0,0,0) at 0176700
: xp(0,0,0)unix
Boot: bootdev=05000 bootcsr=0176700
2.11 BSD UNIX #11: Tue Jan 6 16:57:02 MET 1998
root@pdp11.begemot.com:/usr/src/sys/HIPPON
panic: buffers
no fs on dev 10/0
dumping to dev 5001 off 512
dump args:EINVAL
HALT instruction, PC: 006606 (JSR R5,3162)
sim>
----------------------
What am I doing wrong?
regards,
chris
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mon Jun 12 09:36:45 2000
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Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 16:36:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <200006112336.QAA12888(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: cpg(a)aladdin.de, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: problems booting 2.11_rp_unknown
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Hi -
> From: "Christian Groessler" <cpg(a)aladdin.de>
>
> I'm trying to boot the 2.11_rp_unknown image from Boot_Images.
> This is what happens:
>
> PDP-11 simulator V2.3d
> sim> set cpu 18b
Try "set cpu 22b" instead. Using 18b tells the simulator you have
a 248kb (and 8kb for the I/O page) machine and that is not enough
for 2.11 to load and allocate all the resources it needs.
> panic: buffers
Yep -that panic message says the kernel could not allocate any
memory for the buffer cache. I am almost certain that means
there is not enough free memory left out of 248kb.
> What am I doing wrong?
Try telling the emulator to use "22bit" mode. If that still
fails let us know. Then it will be time for "Plan B" ;)
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
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>From "Christian Groessler" <cpg(a)aladdin.de> Mon Jun 12 10:37:24 2000
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From: "Christian Groessler" <cpg(a)aladdin.de>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
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Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 01:37:24 +0100
Subject: Re: problems booting 2.11_rp_unknown
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On 06/11/2000 11:36:45 PM GMT "Steven M. Schultz" wrote:
>
>>
>> PDP-11 simulator V2.3d
>> sim> set cpu 18b
>
> Try "set cpu 22b" instead. Using 18b tells the simulator you have
> a 248kb (and 8kb for the I/O page) machine and that is not enough
> for 2.11 to load and allocate all the resources it needs.
>
>> panic: buffers
>
> Yep -that panic message says the kernel could not allocate any
> memory for the buffer cache. I am almost certain that means
> there is not enough free memory left out of 248kb.
>
>> What am I doing wrong?
>
> Try telling the emulator to use "22bit" mode. If that still
> fails let us know. Then it will be time for "Plan B" ;)
Hmm, sorry, it still doesn't work:
---------------------
gibbon:/net/scharfzahn/playing/boot_images$ pdp11
PDP-11 simulator V2.3d
sim> set cpu 22b
sim> att rp0 2.11_rp_unknown
sim> boot rp
53Boot from xp(0,0,0) at 0176700
: xp(0,0,0)unix
Boot: bootdev=05000 bootcsr=0176700
2.11 BSD UNIX #11: Tue Jan 6 16:57:02 MET 1998
root@pdp11.begemot.com:/usr/src/sys/HIPPON
panic: buffers
no fs on dev 10/0
dumping to dev 5001 off 512
dump args:EINVAL
HALT instruction, PC: 006606 (JSR R5,3162)
sim>
---------------------
What is "Plan B"? :-)
regards,
chris
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mon Jun 12 11:33:37 2000
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To: cpg(a)aladdin.de, sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
Subject: Re: problems booting 2.11_rp_unknown
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
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> From: "Christian Groessler" <cpg(a)aladdin.de>
> Hmm, sorry, it still doesn't work:
> sim> set cpu 22b
> sim> att rp0 2.11_rp_unknown
> sim> boot rp
> What is "Plan B"? :-)
Plan B is to specify the amount of memory directly. Simply saying
"set cpu 22B" tells the emulator to use 22 bit addressing - but it
does not say how much memory the system has (it's possible to have
1mb of memory even though ~4mb is possible).
Try using both "set cpu 22B" and "set cpu 2048K" - that worked here.
It may well be that only "set cpu 2048K" is actually needed - I didn't
try that by itself.
Script started on Sun Jun 11 18:30:40 2000
moe.1-> cat f
set cpu 22B
set cpu 2048K
att rp0 rp
boot rp
moe.2-> pdp11 f
PDP-11 simulator V2.3d
53Boot from xp(0,0,0) at 0176700
:
: xp(0,0,0)unix
Boot: bootdev=05000 bootcsr=0176700
2.11 BSD UNIX #11: Tue Jan 6 16:57:02 MET 1998
root@pdp11.begemot.com:/usr/src/sys/HIPPON
attaching lo0
phys mem = 2097152
avail mem = 1668352
user mem = 307200
January 8 06:50:29 init: configure system
lp 0 csr 177514 vector 200 attached
rl 0 csr 174400 vector 160 attached
tm 0 csr 172520 vector 224 attached
xp 0 csr 176700 vector 254 attached
cn 1 csr 176500 vector 300 skipped: No CSR.
cn 2 csr 176510 vector 310 skipped: No CSR.
cn 3 csr 176520 vector 320 skipped: No CSR.
cn 4 csr 176530 vector 330 skipped: No CSR.
erase, kill ^U, intr ^C
# halt
syncing disks... done
halting
HALT instruction, PC: 000014 (MOV #1,12456)
sim> q
Goodbye
moe.3-> exit
exit
Script done on Sun Jun 11 18:30:59 2000
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>From "Christian Groessler" <cpg(a)aladdin.de> Mon Jun 12 23:34:47 2000
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From: "Christian Groessler" <cpg(a)aladdin.de>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
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Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 14:34:47 +0100
Subject: Re: problems booting 2.11_rp_unknown
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On 06/12/2000 01:33:37 AM GMT "Steven M. Schultz" wrote:
>
> Plan B is to specify the amount of memory directly. Simply saying
> "set cpu 22B" tells the emulator to use 22 bit addressing - but it
> does not say how much memory the system has (it's possible to have
> 1mb of memory even though ~4mb is possible).
>
> Try using both "set cpu 22B" and "set cpu 2048K" - that worked here.
>
> It may well be that only "set cpu 2048K" is actually needed - I didn't
> try that by itself.
It works :-) :-)
Thanks for your help!
regards,
chris
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>From Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)cley.com> Tue Jun 13 00:11:30 2000
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To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD)
In-Reply-To: <20000609152354.A60849(a)dragon.nuxi.com>
References: <000609165909.20200fd8(a)trailing-edge.com>
<20000609152354.A60849(a)dragon.nuxi.com>
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* David O'Brien wrote:
> This goes back to the UHS / PUPS discussion. I didn't vote so before,
> but maybe it is time to separate the mail for the two. I agree that the
> first posts were interesting in the historical insight that could be
> gained. But this thread has turned into a rather long hardware
> discussion applicable to only a handful of people that have this
> hardware.
> I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I
> guess one needs to be created) would be possible.
Please don't. I love reading discussions of random old bits of
hardware, and such discussions have gone on on the PUPS list for a
long time.
--tim
> And in those cases, you loose as well. The RX02 uses a micro-engine to
> control the drive. No chip controller can switch density in the middle
> of
> the track, so RX02 floppies will forever be in the domain of RX02 drives
> only.
Funny thing. I read 'em on my PS/2. I Am Not Making This Up. No
prefabricated single-chip floppy controller, methinks...
-jtm
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>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Sat Jun 10 06:59:09 2000
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From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Message-Id: <000609165909.20200fd8(a)trailing-edge.com>
Subject: Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD)
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> This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others)
> read this list for.
I *think* you wrote this in reply to Steven Schultz's message, (at least
that's the impression I got from the headers indicating it was a direct
reply to his message), but that doesn't make much sense because what he
wrote about was *exactly* on target for what this list is about: Running
Unix on PDP-11's.
OK, his jabs at Solaris probably weren't exactly on topic, but let's
look at what else he discussed:
* The disklabel implementation on 2.11BSD and its roots in other Unices.
* The history of MSCP drivers in 2.11BSD and other BSD-derived Unices.
* Efficient use of DHQ and DHV async multiplexers in Unix.
* The history of sh, csh, and tcsh, some introduction to how they use
overlays on PDP-11 Unices, and the application of split I/D techniques
to their operation.
All of these are, IMHO, very worthy topics of discussion for a mailing
list about PDP-11 Unix, and they were all direct from the expert on the
subject(s). What else would a subscriber to the PUPS list be looking for?
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
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>From Gael Queri <gqueri(a)mail.dotcom.fr> Sat Jun 10 07:20:51 2000
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From: Gael Queri <gqueri(a)mail.dotcom.fr>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: tcsh on 2.11BSD
Message-ID: <20000609232051.A28762(a)baoule.ath.cx>
References: <200006082258.IAA05733(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006090801130.8604-100000(a)guildenstern.shaffstall.com>
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On Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 08:13:49AM -0500, Jason T. Miller wrote:
> > I thought there was a port of an early tcsh to 2.*BSD? Maybe I have poor
> > memory. Anyway, I believe that Minix has a very tiny editline(), which
> > could be squeezed into the 2.11BSD csh to give you command-line editing.
> Yup. There's a tcsh included in 2.11BSD; thing is, I'm partial to the
> Bourne shell. Hence, a project.
And did you try to do something with pdksh? It's smaller than tcsh
and it has filename completion and support for reentrant history
(contrary to bash)
look at ftp.cs.mun.ca:/pub/pdksh/
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>From "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> Sat Jun 10 08:23:55 2000
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From: "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com>
To: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
Cc: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD)
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On Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 04:59:09PM -0400, Tim Shoppa wrote:
> > This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others)
> > read this list for.
>
> I *think* you wrote this in reply to Steven Schultz's message, (at least
Yes, I wrote it in reply to Steven's message. Not it as not directed
directly at Steven, it is for everyone that is engaged in this hardware
discussion.
> All of these are, IMHO, very worthy topics of discussion for a mailing
> list about PDP-11 Unix, and they were all direct from the expert on the
> subject(s). What else would a subscriber to the PUPS list be looking for?
This goes back to the UHS / PUPS discussion. I didn't vote so before,
but maybe it is time to separate the mail for the two. I agree that the
first posts were interesting in the historical insight that could be
gained. But this thread has turned into a rather long hardware
discussion applicable to only a handful of people that have this
hardware.
I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I
guess one needs to be created) would be possible.
--
-- David (obrien(a)NUXI.com)
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>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Sat Jun 10 11:32:24 2000
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From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
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Subject: Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD)
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>> > This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others)
>> > read this list for.
>>
>> I *think* you wrote this in reply to Steven Schultz's message, (at least
>Yes, I wrote it in reply to Steven's message. Not it as not directed
>directly at Steven, it is for everyone that is engaged in this hardware
>discussion.
Actually, Steven did a *very* good job at turning a hardware-oriented
discussion to issues very much related to the history and maintainence
of Unix.
Besides, if anyone here wants to really know about RX50 interleaving,
they should go read one of CJL's posts from the Lasnerian early 90's
to alt.sys.pdp8/PDP8-LOVERS about RX50 interleave. I swear, it was
a tome that was a good chunk of a megabyte long.
>> All of these are, IMHO, very worthy topics of discussion for a mailing
>> list about PDP-11 Unix, and they were all direct from the expert on the
>> subject(s). What else would a subscriber to the PUPS list be looking for?
>This goes back to the UHS / PUPS discussion. I didn't vote so before,
>but maybe it is time to separate the mail for the two. I agree that the
>first posts were interesting in the historical insight that could be
>gained. But this thread has turned into a rather long hardware
>discussion applicable to only a handful of people that have this
>hardware.
I view it the other way - the original posts offered little historical
insight, but the last one by Steven drew it very much back to Unix.
>I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I
>guess one needs to be created) would be possible.
Indeed, there is a PDP-11 mailing list (info-pdp11(a)village.org) already,
gatewayed to the Usenet newsgroup vmsnet.pdp-11. To a large extent, though,
you can't blame members of the PUPS mailing list from occasionally straying
from "Unix in general" to the "PDP-11 in particular", because that's a good
part of what the list was originally created for (even though you might
not have joined until the The Unix Heritage Society solidified...)
If there was a more general "Unix Heritage Society" mailing list, would
platform-specific discussions be banned from that? I probably would be
bored to tears by any such restrictions, as there would be no opportunities
to give concrete examples.
Tim.
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Sat Jun 10 11:54:48 2000
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Subject: Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD)
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On Friday, 9 June 2000 at 15:23:55 -0700, David O'Brien wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 04:59:09PM -0400, Tim Shoppa wrote:
>>> This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others)
>>> read this list for.
>>
>> I *think* you wrote this in reply to Steven Schultz's message, (at least
>
> Yes, I wrote it in reply to Steven's message. Not it as not directed
> directly at Steven, it is for everyone that is engaged in this hardware
> discussion.
>
>> All of these are, IMHO, very worthy topics of discussion for a mailing
>> list about PDP-11 Unix, and they were all direct from the expert on the
>> subject(s). What else would a subscriber to the PUPS list be looking for?
>
> This goes back to the UHS / PUPS discussion. I didn't vote so before,
> but maybe it is time to separate the mail for the two. I agree that the
> first posts were interesting in the historical insight that could be
> gained. But this thread has turned into a rather long hardware
> discussion applicable to only a handful of people that have this
> hardware.
>
> I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I
> guess one needs to be created) would be possible.
Well, FWIW this *is* the PDP-11 list. But I thought it was
interesting way beyond the PDP-11 aspect. Some of these things
(write-protected labels, for example) still shape FreeBSD, for
example.
I don't think we really have enough mail to justify two lists. Most
of us probably ditch more than 50% of their mail every day anyway; if
this doesn't interest you, why not just delete it?
Greg
--
Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote:
> Thanks to Michael for reminding me exactly what the situation with
> the optimizer and kernel builds under 4.3 is. Though I think he
> forgot to mention "inline" (ack! pffffft!)... :-)
We do use inline of course. I love it.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
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To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Cc: jasomill(a)shaffstall.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD)
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This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others)
read this list for.
Jason T. Miller <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com> wrote:
> (my loving father having discarded my
> DECmate II as junk about ten years ago).
Then call your nearest DEC dealer, get a quote on the replacement price, and
sue your dad for the cost! Or report him to NKVD for vandalism of socialist
property.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
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>From Roger Ivie <rivie(a)teraglobal.com> Sat Jun 10 01:16:50 2000
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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:16:50 -0600
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
From: Roger Ivie <rivie(a)teraglobal.com>
Subject: Re: RX50 read/write on FreeBSD
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Jason Miller wrote:
>(not only
>does it only support stdin and stdout, but it uses both 'goto' and the
>ternary operator; I tend to deeply offend the C style gods, late at
>night when I think nobody's watching)
Could be worse. I deeply offend the C style gods right in the open where
everyone can see. Since I'm pretty much a hardware type, I do _everything_
in state machines. While that works great for everything from hardware to
Prolog, it does mean my code tends to assume the only available
control structure is "if( expr ) goto state;". My attitude is that the
state diagram is the program, the code is just an implementation detail.
I used to work for a company that did TURBOchannel devices. I did the
device drivers for all the platforms (VAX/VMS, Alpha/VMS, Ultrix, and
OSF/1) and I shipped source code (it wasn't a conscious decision on the
part of management; since I got to build the distribution kits, the source
code was included and management simply didn't argue with me). One day I
got a letter from someone who had just bought our TURBOchannel parallel
printer port offering to go through the code and remove all those evil
gotos for the low, low price of only $100 a page. I declined the offer.
--
Roger Ivie
rivie(a)teraglobal.com
Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation
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>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Sat Jun 10 03:53:05 2000
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From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com>
cc: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again....
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On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 05:46:55PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> > jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote:
> >
> > > Oh, yes. My VS4000m60 needs only 36 hours to go through a "make build".
> > > This is pure luxury.
> >
> > And 4.3BSD-Quasijarus completes its make build on my CSRG dev mill, which is a
> > KA655 (3.8 VUPs, whereas your KA46 is 12 VUPs), in a little under 4 hours. The
> > GENERIC vmunix kernel is another 30 minutes.
>
> My experience with compilers on the VAX leads me to believe that the
> substantial "savings" seen over NetBSD or post-4.3 BSD distributions here
> is almost entirely due to the compiler and options used. If Quasijarus
> builds like CSRG 4.3 did, with pcc, it can't even use the optimizer *at all*
> for the kernel build, due to severe bugs; either way, pcc runs a lot faster
> than gcc though it generates code that runs a whole lot slower.
Um. Let me put it this way... Userland is a *lot* smaller in 4.3 than
NetBSD... How much time do you think that makes up? The same goes for the
kernel. It's not that 4.3 is faster per se, just that it has a lot less to
build.
> I'd be willing to bet that gcc -O0 would build NetBSD at least ten times
> as fast as gcc -O2; the VAX is (as we all know ;-)) a "rather complex"
> processor, with "rather complex" instruction patterns, gcc is not the
> swiftest of compilers in the first place, and it does a *lot* of work.
True.
> Slow machines *are* good for demonstrating how good your compiler is;
> I recall that rebuilding "compress" with gcc on my 750, way back when,
> pretty much doubled the amount of Usenet news I could handle in a day. :-)
:-)
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sat Jun 10 04:42:16 2000
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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 11:42:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <200006091842.LAA18214(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: jasomill(a)shaffstall.com, sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
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> From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com>
> > write: Read-only file system
> > 2+0 records in
> > 2+0 records out
> That's what I get.
Oh - ok. I must have misread the initial posting that indicated the
complete copy went thru
dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/ra12a
800+0 records in
800+0 records out
If the writing of the floppy bailed out after "2+0" then it is no
wonder the compare later fails - only the first sector was written.
> > After doing the "disklabel -W ra9" the "dd" works fine and the floppy
> > compares identical to the input file.
>
> Still haven't tried it. Had to watch the Pacers game and get some needed
> sleep.
Sleep I can understand :)
I really think (and sure hope!) that write enabling the label area
will fix the problem.
Having to do a "disklabel -W" on a disk before doing 'raw' I/O was
a change that came in when labels were implemented. Before labels
the tables were compiled into the driver and 'raw' I/O could scribble
all over the disk and the system would still know about the
partitioning. When I ported over disklabels from 4.3-Reno it seemed
like a "Good Thing" to be paranoid about preserving the label sector ;)
> I've gone over ra.c several times -- that's a fun piece of code. I've
> written device drivers before, but really, was this a test of DEC
> software engineers by DEC hardware engineers?
You know - I think it was a contest inside DEC to see who would go
crazy first. Reading the comments in the Ultrix drivers gave me
the impression that even within DEC getting clear and correct
documentation wasn't a given. Then there are Chris Torek's comments
in the 4.3-Reno and later MSCP drivers when he was in essence reverse
engineering (or outright guessing) the MSCP commands, options, etc.
> Well, all my serial cables are three-wire (yes, I'm lazy, but I get
> 1.8K/sec via SLIP at 19200, so I'm not too concerned), but the 'numerous
> other goodies' I like.
Hmmm, that's got to be a DHQ or similar. I had real problems with a
DHV-11 and character loss when going over 9600. Also, if you want
to use "Kermit" you have to have RTS/CTS because that's a fairly
heavy weight protocol and the system can't keep up if the rate is
too high. With RTS/CTS in place I was able to use 38400 and not
loose a single character.
> what I know and love. Give me 2.11BSD on a PDP over Solaris on an
> UltraSPARC any day (well, if anyone wants to _give me_ and UltraSPARC,
Slowaris? "Just say no" - I have to deal with that at work and
it was light night and day going from SunOS 4.1.x to Slowaris 2.x
on the same hardware. You *need* an UltraSparc just to restore the
system responsiveness.
> I'll do the responsible thing and reevaluate my claims -- and SunOS [4.1.x
> that is] is a decent OS, but anyway, I digress). The only thing I want is
Bit long in the tooth and missing a lot of the improvements (and
fixes) in the IP/TCP stack that have been made over time. Still, it
was a much nicer system.
> command history and filename completion in the Bourne shell (having grown
> used to Bash -- although it's a big memory pig and I admit I use it only
> for the previously mentioned features, though I like the PS variable magic
> characters, too -- I'm thinking about trying to hack the CH features of
> tcsh (never been a C shell fan) into sh, maybe we should start a 2BSD
> 'ports' collection? Any suggestions for a name of this shell? Any
> suggestions for freeing up my time to write it :)?
Might I suggest "pig"? <grin!>
I like and use 'csh' for everything except the basic scripts that go
into the system. Csh has filename completion that works fairly well,
only thing it doesn't have is arrowkey driven command editing.
But observe the bloat factor that comes with "niceties" such as
command history and command editing:
First there's the honest to Bourne shell:
text data bss dec hex
16576 2356 416 19348 4b94 /bin/sh
Then take a look at /bin/csh where there's history and a nicer
(to me scripting capability - doing arithmetic in csh is so much
easier than in sh):
55744 7104 3682 66530 103e2 total text: 69120
overlays: 7360,6016
Overlaid! Efficiently (the one overlay is called seldom) but overlaid
none the less.
And lastly 'tcsh' (and yes, there is a port of an older version of
tcsh for 2.11):
48960 14844 11986 75790 1280e total text: 140864
overlays: 15424,16000,14144,14016,16256,16064
Zounds! No hope of really being efficient - modules were packed where
they would fit. More than doubling the size of 'csh' seems to be
a VERY high price to pay for using the arrow keys if you ask me.
Oh, and 'tcsh' has another problem due to it's appetite for memory.
If it runs out of D space (more likely since it's so much larger)
you get logged out. Doing filename completion in 'tcsh' and being
in a directory with too many files is a sure way to be staring at
the login prompt shortly there after ;)
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
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>From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Sat Jun 10 04:59:38 2000
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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 14:59:38 -0400
From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com>
To: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again....
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On Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 07:53:05PM +0200, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> >
> > My experience with compilers on the VAX leads me to believe that the
> > substantial "savings" seen over NetBSD or post-4.3 BSD distributions here
> > is almost entirely due to the compiler and options used. If Quasijarus
> > builds like CSRG 4.3 did, with pcc, it can't even use the optimizer *at all*
> > for the kernel build, due to severe bugs; either way, pcc runs a lot faster
> > than gcc though it generates code that runs a whole lot slower.
>
> Um. Let me put it this way... Userland is a *lot* smaller in 4.3 than
> NetBSD... How much time do you think that makes up? The same goes for the
> kernel. It's not that 4.3 is faster per se, just that it has a lot less to
> build.
Well, of course it does. But it's also well worth keeping in mind that
while pcc is generally inferior to gcc in almost every other way, due
to its simplicity it *is* probably at least five times as fast. A lot
of the difference in speed we're talking about here, particularly
with regard to the kernel, is due to the use of a much slower compiler;
as much of the kernel as you *have* to build for a VAX (as opposed to
what you *can* build if you *want to*) hasn't really bloated a lot
between 4.3 and NetBSD. Runtime memory use is a somewhat different
matter, but we do still fit into Ragge's smaller VAXen pretty well.
Thanks to Michael for reminding me exactly what the situation with
the optimizer and kernel builds under 4.3 is. Though I think he
forgot to mention "inline" (ack! pffffft!)... :-)
--
Thor Lancelot Simon tls(a)rek.tjls.com
"And where do all these highways go, now that we are free?"
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> I freshly formatted a floppy. That's one nice thing about the RX33,
> the RQDX3 can format floppies using ZRQF?? - RX50's meant getting
> preformat'd media or a Rainbow to do the formatting from what I
> remember.
Unless you have a Shaffstall 6000 -- a really cool piece of equipment once
made by my current employer, which is basically a box full of floppy
drives (3.5" HD, 5.25" 48tpi, 5.25" 96tpi, 8", and a few, but not mine,
have the Amstrad 3" 'flippy-disk') which are all _really_ well-aligned
(20% better than OEM spec) and an intelligent disk controller (which is
actually an 8085-based SBC) in a PC. About the only disks I _can't_ read
(or write or format) with this thing are the 2.88MB 3.5"
'extended-density' disks -- and I have a NeXTstation to read those.
Needless to say, I've got no problem formatting RX50s, in any interleave.
> write: Read-only file system
> 2+0 records in
> 2+0 records out
That's what I get.
> That probably should have been 2+0 and 1+0 since dd read two sectors but
> only successfully wrote one. A bug in 'dd' perhaps that it doesn't
> decrement the output count on a write error.
I noticed that, too.
> After doing the "disklabel -W ra9" the "dd" works fine and the floppy
> compares identical to the input file.
Still haven't tried it. Had to watch the Pacers game and get some needed
sleep.
> The MSCP driver hasn't changed in quite a while so if you retrieved
> 2.11 fairly recently the problem's not a bug in ra.c that I can
> see (or if it is, it's particular to the RX50 somehow).
I've gone over ra.c several times -- that's a fun piece of code. I've
written device drivers before, but really, was this a test of DEC
software engineers by DEC hardware engineers?
> One more thing I stuffed into the system. You'll also find
> "sigaction" and friends along with RTS/CTS flowcontrol (for devices
> which support it), and numerous other goodies imported from 4.4BSD (the
> latest addition was 'pselect(2)' just a couple months ago).
Well, all my serial cables are three-wire (yes, I'm lazy, but I get
1.8K/sec via SLIP at 19200, so I'm not too concerned), but the 'numerous
other goodies' I like.
As for the userland environment, it's "vanilla BSD" and that's exactly
what I know and love. Give me 2.11BSD on a PDP over Solaris on an
UltraSPARC any day (well, if anyone wants to _give me_ and UltraSPARC,
I'll do the responsible thing and reevaluate my claims -- and SunOS [4.1.x
that is] is a decent OS, but anyway, I digress). The only thing I want is
command history and filename completion in the Bourne shell (having grown
used to Bash -- although it's a big memory pig and I admit I use it only
for the previously mentioned features, though I like the PS variable magic
characters, too -- I'm thinking about trying to hack the CH features of
tcsh (never been a C shell fan) into sh, maybe we should start a 2BSD
'ports' collection? Any suggestions for a name of this shell? Any
suggestions for freeing up my time to write it :)?
Also, when I get my RX50 toolset for FreeBSD working, should I put it in
the archive? It'd probably be more interesting to PUPS'ers than the
FreeBSD community At Large.
-jtm
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>From Eric Fischer <enf(a)pobox.com> Fri Jun 9 08:41:25 2000
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Paul West writes,
> BTW, there apparently were two different timesharing systems developed
> for the PDP-1, the second one coming from Bolt, Beranek, and Newman
> (BBN).
Thanks for reminding me about the Jack Dennis article -- I had
forgotten about that one.
There were, I think, at least *four* time-sharing systems for the
PDP-1. Besides the MIT and BBN ones, there was also the Hospital
Computer Project (I'm not sure whether that one was descended from
the early BBN system or was written from scratch) and the THOR
system at Stanford. I can't give proper citations because I'm
currently 2000 miles from my book collection.
eric
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Fri Jun 9 08:58:44 2000
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Subject: Re: tcsh on 2.11BSD
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006081444001.7342-100000(a)guildenstern.shaffstall.com> from "Jason T. Miller" at "Jun 8, 2000 3:40:15 pm"
To: jasomill(a)shaffstall.com (Jason T. Miller)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:58:44 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society)
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In article by Jason T. Miller:
> The only thing I want is
> command history and filename completion in the Bourne shell (having grown
> used to Bash -- although it's a big memory pig and I admit I use it only
> for the previously mentioned features, though I like the PS variable magic
> characters, too -- I'm thinking about trying to hack the CH features of
> tcsh (never been a C shell fan) into sh, maybe we should start a 2BSD
> 'ports' collection? Any suggestions for a name of this shell? Any
> suggestions for freeing up my time to write it :)?
I thought there was a port of an early tcsh to 2.*BSD? Maybe I have poor
memory. Anyway, I believe that Minix has a very tiny editline(), which
could be squeezed into the 2.11BSD csh to give you command-line editing.
> Also, when I get my RX50 toolset for FreeBSD working, should I put it in
> the archive? It'd probably be more interesting to PUPS'ers than the
> FreeBSD community At Large.
Yep, it will go into Tools/
Warren
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>From Eric Fischer <enf(a)pobox.com> Fri Jun 9 09:21:44 2000
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From: Eric Fischer <enf(a)pobox.com>
To: lars(a)nocrew.org
Subject: Re: unix precursors
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Lars Brinkhoff writes,
> How about ITS, did it influence Unix?
If nothing else, the "more" program began as a copy of an ITS feature.
And people think of emacs as a Unix program, but it came to Unix from
ITS and brought with it things like the "info" documentation format.
eric
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>From Paul West <pdub(a)accesscom.com> Fri Jun 9 10:27:13 2000
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To: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org>
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Subject: Re: unix precursors
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lars brinkhoff wrote:
> How about ITS, did it influence Unix?
ITS was quite idiosyncratic, and I do not recall that Richie or Thompson
ever mentioned it as an influence on Unix. But you can judge for
yourself, if you want.
The ITS Reference manual is available at
"ftp://publications.ai.mit.edu/ai-publications/0-499/AIM-161A.ps"
The source code and system documentation for ITS has been released under
the GPL, and is at
"ftp://fpt.swiss.ai.mit.edu/pub/its".
Happy historical hunting!
Paul
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>From Paul West <pdub(a)accesscom.com> Fri Jun 9 10:29:55 2000
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To: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org>
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Subject: Re: unix precursors (corrected URL)
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Sorry for the repeat, I mistyped a URL in the first version.
Paul
---
lars brinkhoff wrote:
> How about ITS, did it influence Unix?
ITS was quite idiosyncratic, and I do not recall that Richie or Thompson
ever mentioned it as an influence on Unix. But you can judge for
yourself, if you want.
The ITS Reference manual is available at
"ftp://publications.ai.mit.edu/ai-publications/0-499/AIM-161A.ps"
The source code and system documentation for ITS has been released under
the GPL, and is at
"ftp://ftp.swiss.ai.mit.edu/pub/its".
Happy historical hunting!
Paul
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>From "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)indiana.edu> Fri Jun 9 18:55:11 2000
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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 03:55:11 -0500 (EST)
From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)indiana.edu>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: RX50 read/write on FreeBSD
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Thanks to the good advice of members of the PUPS mailing list, I've
completed my first stab at an RX50 read/write toolset for FreeBSD. It
consists of two parts, a kernel patch to add the physical format, and a
filter set to deal with the logical sector interleave. It's ugly (not only
does it only support stdin and stdout, but it uses both 'goto' and the
ternary operator; I tend to deeply offend the C style gods, late at
night when I think nobody's watching), but it seems to work pretty
well. The kernel patch, at least, is clean. Those with good karma and
flawlessly aligned drive heads can even try formatting their own RX50s.
So how do I submit it to the archive? "incoming" seems to be RO. It's
about 3K, tarred and gzipped.
Jason T. Miller
Self-styled Jack of England
"..." -Anonymous
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>From "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com> Fri Jun 9 23:14:11 2000
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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:14:11 -0500 (EST)
From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com>
To: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: tcsh on 2.11BSD
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> I thought there was a port of an early tcsh to 2.*BSD? Maybe I have poor
> memory. Anyway, I believe that Minix has a very tiny editline(), which
> could be squeezed into the 2.11BSD csh to give you command-line editing.
Yup. There's a tcsh included in 2.11BSD; thing is, I'm partial to the
Bourne shell. Hence, a project.
> > Also, when I get my RX50 toolset for FreeBSD working, should I put it in
> > the archive? It'd probably be more interesting to PUPS'ers than the
> > FreeBSD community At Large.
>
> Yep, it will go into Tools/
Well, it's kind of ugly (okay, really ugly), but it's working pretty well.
The physical I/O portion is a (miniscule) patch against the 4.0-STABLE
FreeBSD kernel, but the interleave filters are pretty much standard C
(hideous C, but no BSD tricks) and should work on any raw I/O read of an
RX50 disk (you can do it in Linux without kernel mods; see setfdprm(8)).
Of course, the filters are only applicable to PDP-11-ish or VAX-ish RX50s;
Rainbow and DECmate disks are totally different; if someone wants to
implement those things, go ahead (Rainbow MS-DOS could be had with careful
mods to mtools, and there are a billion ways to skin a CP/M disk;
haven't seen anything on UNIX to handle the DEC WPS file management
system, but I digress), but they have little to do with UNIX on the PDP
and less to do with me personally (my loving father having discarded my
DECmate II as junk about ten years ago).
-jtm
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Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote:
> If Quasijarus
> builds like CSRG 4.3 did, with pcc [...]
It does.
> [...] it can't even use the optimizer *at all*
> for the kernel build, due to severe bugs [...]
Wrong, 4.3BSD-Quasijarus *does* use the optimizer for the kernel build, as did
plain 4.3BSD, running c2 -i for the drivers and normally for everything else.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
> And in those cases, you loose as well. The RX02 uses a micro-engine to
> control the drive. No chip controller can switch density in the middle of
> the track, so RX02 floppies will forever be in the domain of RX02 drives
> only.
IF you must transfer RX02 resident files to a non dec system the only
choice is another RX02 or compatable (DSD880 and friends). However,
if that is available the disk can be reformatted to SSSD, data written to
it and then standard floppy contoller chips and systems that can handle 8"
media will work just fine.
RX50 and RX33 formatting do not have this liability.
Allison
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>From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Fri Jun 9 01:36:34 2000
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From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com>
To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again....
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On Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 05:46:55PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote:
>
> > Oh, yes. My VS4000m60 needs only 36 hours to go through a "make build".
> > This is pure luxury.=20
>
> And 4.3BSD-Quasijarus completes its make build on my CSRG dev mill, which is a
> KA655 (3.8 VUPs, whereas your KA46 is 12 VUPs), in a little under 4 hours. The
> GENERIC vmunix kernel is another 30 minutes.
My experience with compilers on the VAX leads me to believe that the
substantial "savings" seen over NetBSD or post-4.3 BSD distributions here
is almost entirely due to the compiler and options used. If Quasijarus
builds like CSRG 4.3 did, with pcc, it can't even use the optimizer *at all*
for the kernel build, due to severe bugs; either way, pcc runs a lot faster
than gcc though it generates code that runs a whole lot slower.
I'd be willing to bet that gcc -O0 would build NetBSD at least ten times
as fast as gcc -O2; the VAX is (as we all know ;-)) a "rather complex"
processor, with "rather complex" instruction patterns, gcc is not the
swiftest of compilers in the first place, and it does a *lot* of work.
Slow machines *are* good for demonstrating how good your compiler is;
I recall that rebuilding "compress" with gcc on my 750, way back when,
pretty much doubled the amount of Usenet news I could handle in a day. :-)
Thor
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jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote:
> Oh, yes. My VS4000m60 needs only 36 hours to go through a "make build".
> This is pure luxury.=20
And 4.3BSD-Quasijarus completes its make build on my CSRG dev mill, which is a
KA655 (3.8 VUPs, whereas your KA46 is 12 VUPs), in a little under 4 hours. The
GENERIC vmunix kernel is another 30 minutes.
Long live Original UNIX in 4 capitals! Let's reopen the Soviet factories, build
new 11/780s with the hammer and sickle on every chip, put the real UNIX on
them, and send pee sea-raised revisionists to gulag!
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
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>From Eric Fischer <enf(a)pobox.com> Thu Jun 8 08:50:45 2000
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From: Eric Fischer <enf(a)pobox.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: unix precursors
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> Thompson mentions that unix borrows heavily from CTSS. I think that
> Corbato wrote a book on this system, but that book seems nearly as
> rare as chicken teeth. I think he also wrote an earlier journal
> article on the system, which I imagine shouldn't be hard to locate.
The journal article you're thinking of is probably "An Experimental
Time Sharing System" by Corbato, Merwin-Daggett, and Daley, which
describes an early version of the system (where command arguments
were still separated by vertical bars instead of spaces). AFIPS
Conference Proceedings vol. 21, 1962.
The book is _The Compatible Time-Sharing System: A User's Guide_,
which was published in two editions in, I think, 1963 and 1965,
by MIT Press. Both editions are in enough libraries you should
be able to get them by interlibrary loan. The first edition is
more booklike, the second is more like a collection of man pages.
The Charles Babbage Institute has copies of some of the on-line
updates to the manual (on paper) from after the second edition
was published.
You will see many similarities to Unix. The arguments to tar,
for instance, come straight from the CTSS "ARCHIV" command.
> Finally, Thompson also mentions that fork() basically existed in its
> current form in the Berkeley Timesharing System. That is the one and
> only thing I have ever heard about this system. Anyone know where I
> can learn more?
You can find out some things about it from Butler Lampson's "A User
Machine in a Time-Sharing System," at
http://www.research.microsoft.com/lampson/02-UserMachine/Abstract.html
Dennis Ritchie cites a real manual for the system in the references for
http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/hist.html
but I haven't been able to locate a copy, even in the library at
the University of California, Berkeley. I've read somewhere that
the system is supposed to be similar to the PDP-1 time sharing
system developed at MIT, but the only documentation I've located
on that is Mario Bonghi's master's thesis, which seems to have been
written before the hardware was even upgraded to be able to run
the software it describes.
eric
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Subject: Re: unix precursors
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"A. P. Garcia" wrote:
> does anyone know where I can learn more about other precursors to
> unix?
On CTSS:
F. J. Corbato et al.
"An Experimental Time-Sharing System"
Proceedings of the AFIPS, SJCC 1962, vol 21, pp 335-344.
P. A. Crisman
The Compatible Time-Sharing System: A Programmer's Guide, 2nd ed.
MIT Press, 1965.
On the Berkeley Timesharing System:
W.W. Lichtenberger and M. W. Pirtle
"A Facility for Experimentation in Man-Machine Interaction"
Proceedings of the AFIPS, FJCC 1965, vol 27, pp 185-196.
B. W. Lampson, W.W. Lichtenberger and M. W. Pirtle
"A User Machine in a Time-Sharing System"
Proceedings of the IEEE, vol 54 no 12 (Dec. 1966), pp 1766-1774.
This last paper is reprinted in Chapter 24 of:
C. Gordon Bell and Allen Newell
Computer Structures: Readings and Examples
Mc-Graw Hill, 1971
and this *entire* book is online at
"http://www.research.microsoft.com/~gbell/Computer_Structures__Readings_and_…"
(the URL needs to be all on one line to cut and paste into your
browser).
Happy reading :)
Paul
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>From Paul West <pdub(a)accesscom.com> Thu Jun 8 12:27:45 2000
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To: Eric Fischer <enf(a)pobox.com>
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Eric Fischer wrote:
>
> I've read somewhere that
> the system is supposed to be similar to the PDP-1 time sharing
> system developed at MIT, but the only documentation I've located
> on that is Mario Bonghi's master's thesis, which seems to have been
> written before the hardware was even upgraded to be able to run
> the software it describes.
The book "Computer Engineering" by Bell, Mudge and McNamara gives
another reference for the MIT PDP-1 timesharing system:
J.B. Dennis,
"A Multiuser Computation Facility for Education and Research"
Comm. ACM, vol. 7 no. 9 (Sept. 1964), pp 521-529.
BTW, there apparently were two different timesharing systems developed
for the PDP-1, the second one coming from Bolt, Beranek, and Newman
(BBN). "Computer Engineering" gives this reference for the BBN system:
J. McCarthy, S. Boilen, E. Fredkin, and J.C.R. Lieklider
"A Timesharing Debugging System for a Small Computer"
AFIPS Conference Proceedings, SJCC 1963, vol 23, pp 51-57.
Yes, that is John McCarthy of LISP fame.
Paul
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu Jun 8 14:45:32 2000
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From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <200006080445.VAA25310(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: jasomill(a)shaffstall.com, sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
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Hi -
> From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com>
> > Wow, quite a bit of interest in 2.11 these days - I suppose I should
> It's the first PDP operating system I've enjoyed working with, and one of
> the coolest UNIX implementations I've had the pleasure of working with.
Ah, thanks! I can't claim _all_ the credit but 2.10.1 was more or
less directly my "fault" and 2.11 was all set to be called 2.11SMS
until one of the CSRG folks intervened and gave me the BSD imprimateur.
> I unearthed two Teac 55-G series floppy drives, and they're both broken
> (won't format w/verify) -- the RX50 isn't the only flakey floppy. I've got
Sigh.
Anyhow, to the problem you observed dd'ing data to an RX50 and the
ensuing compare error.
I'm using an RX33 (well, mod'd Teac 5.25" drive) on a RQDX3.
I freshly formatted a floppy. That's one nice thing about the RX33,
the RQDX3 can format floppies using ZRQF?? - RX50's meant getting
preformat'd media or a Rainbow to do the formatting from what I
remember.
Then before doing anything I enabled a bit of extended logging from
the MSCP driver with
sysctl -w machdep.mscp.printf=9
The first access to the drive ("disklabel ra9") elicited a
"ra9a=entire disk: no disk label" message. This is expected and
correct - the kernel saw there was a corrupt/missing label and came
up with a label that spanned the 2400 sectors of the drive using the
'a' partition.
Next a 1.2mb file (sector 0 having zeroes, sector 1 having ones, etc)
was dd'd:
dd if=/tmp/data of=/dev/rra9a
and almost immediately dd reported:
write: Read-only file system
2+0 records in
2+0 records out
That probably should have been 2+0 and 1+0 since dd read two sectors but
only successfully wrote one. A bug in 'dd' perhaps that it doesn't
decrement the output count on a write error.
At any rate you should error out if the label area is not write
enabled. The 'disklabel' program automatically enables and disables
the writeprotect when writing the label in case you were wondering
about that ;)
After doing the "disklabel -W ra9" the "dd" works fine and the floppy
compares identical to the input file.
The MSCP driver hasn't changed in quite a while so if you retrieved
2.11 fairly recently the problem's not a bug in ra.c that I can
see (or if it is, it's particular to the RX50 somehow).
Why 'ra9' (I hear you ask)? Well, the system is currently booted
from a different controller (Emulex UC08). The boot controller is
*always* 'ra0 thru ra7' no matter what the CSR is. The secondary
controller (the RQDX3 in this case) is always 'ra8 thru ra15'. The
RD54 is 'ra8' (first drive on the 2nd controller) and the RX33 is
ra9 (second drive on the second controller).
> > Oh, for debugging purposes you can enable more or all of the MSCP
> > messages with the 'sysctl' command:
> >
> > sysctl -w machdep.mscp.printf=X
>
> I will. Thanks. I didn't even know 2.11 had 'sysctl'. Cool.
One more thing I stuffed into the system. You'll also find
"sigaction" and friends along with RTS/CTS flowcontrol (for devices
which support it), and numerous other goodies imported from 4.4BSD (the
latest addition was 'pselect(2)' just a couple months ago).
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
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>From lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Thu Jun 8 15:41:44 2000
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Subject: Re: unix precursors
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From: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org>
Date: 08 Jun 2000 07:41:44 +0200
In-Reply-To: "A. P. Garcia"'s message of "07 Jun 2000 21:58:58 +0000"
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"A. P. Garcia" <apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org> writes:
> I know that www.multicians.org is a nice web site devoted to Multics,
> but does anyone know where I can learn more about other precursors to
> unix?
How about ITS, did it influence Unix?
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>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Thu Jun 8 17:13:02 2000
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From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: Roger Ivie <rivie(a)teraglobal.com>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: RQDX3 software interleave
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On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Roger Ivie wrote:
> > Speaking of PITA
> >device control, wasn't it the DEC RX02 that wrote address information in
> >single density and data in DD?
>
> Yes, it was. But it was usually done by the hardware (I suppose that
> would be microcode in the case of the RX02), so unless you wanted to
> do something foolish like read RX02 diskettes in your DD CP/M machine
> or format floppies you don't have to worry about it.
And in those cases, you loose as well. The RX02 uses a micro-engine to
control the drive. No chip controller can switch density in the middle of
the track, so RX02 floppies will forever be in the domain of RX02 drives
only.
Note that formatting RX02 floppes is no problem, since you format them in
single density. The RX02 sets a bit in the header if the data is DD, and
this is controllable from all DEC OSes that I know of.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote:
> Ahhh! Why is there no note in the distribution directory?
OK, I'll add one.
> Ehhh? And where to get the code? Why is there no hint to it on the web
> page? Distributions/4bsd/components/compress.tar ???
Yes.
> The Web-Page says: "The strong compression code is available as a
> separate package in the BSD distribution archive (it is itself
> uncompressed)."
Hmm, I thought this was enough info for folks to figure out that
components/compress.tar is the right tarball...
> But the Distributions/4bsd/4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a directory
> does not contain it.
It's in the components directory, as opposed to the tape distribution directory
for any particular release, because it's a grabbed-out BSD component that can
be used with any release. The tape distribution directories have exactly what
goes on the tape in the format it goes there, nothing more, nothing less.
> > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus is more original CSRG than 4.3BSD-Reno. Reno doesn't follow
> > the True UNIX line of V1 thru V7 thru 4.3BSD, Quasijarus does.
> [...]
> Is there some documentation available about this?
I have something along these lines on the front page of the Quasijarus project.
But sure, I should elaborate. I will when I respond to Warren's PUPS/TUHS reorg
thing, which I'm still procrastinating on. :-)
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
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>From Peter Zhivkov <pzh(a)bia-bg.com> Wed Jun 7 03:36:05 2000
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From: Peter Zhivkov <pzh(a)bia-bg.com>
To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II
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On Tue, 6 Jun 2000, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> 4.3BSD-Quasijarus is more original CSRG than 4.3BSD-Reno. Reno doesn't follow
> the True UNIX line of V1 thru V7 thru 4.3BSD, Quasijarus does. Reno breaks all
> traditional CSRG ideology and is not CSRG in any way other than having been
> built in Evans Hall. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus hasn't been built in Evans Hall, but is
> CSRG in every other way.
>
people, please administer proper dosage...and do not let patients out
of the boundaries of the asylum...
> --
> Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
> Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
> International Engineering and Science Task Force
> 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
> DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
>
> Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
> E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
>
>
P.S. please take me off the quasijarus list
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>From "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com> Wed Jun 7 05:06:40 2000
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From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
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Does anyone have experience using the RX50 floppy drive under 2.11BSD? I
patched my FreeBSD kernel to handle RX50-format (80 cyl / 1 hd / 10 sec)
diskettes, and noticed what seemed to be some sort of logical sector
interleave (I also have hardware that does physical diskette reads /
dumps, which assured me that I was getting the physical data off the disk
in the order prescribed by the sector ID address marks); so, back to the
old '11 for another round of test-disk making. My test data was simple
enough: 512 bytes of 16-bit unsigned integer one, followed by 512 bytes of
UINT16 2, usw. to UINT16 800; the easier to figure out the interleave, my
precious... But I didna even get that far: observe (testrx50.img is
409,600 bytes):
$ dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/ra12a
800+0 records in
800+0 records out
$ dd if=/dev/ra12a of=test
800+0 records in
800+0 records out
$ diff testrx50.img test
Binary files testrx50.img and test differ
WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it? In my late-night screwings-around,
I recall the following Additional Facts:
- Disks formatted with my PC floppy drive (using my kernel hacks -
available on request [although until I get them working, no guarantees in
re: their applicability to this or any other use; although I will attest
that they won't make your kernel crash, at least not in 4.0-STABLE])
usually work okay, but sometimes give hard errors.
- Disks formatted with the aforementioned Custom Hardware (a Shaffstall
6000 media conversion system, for the curious) for a) DEC Rainbow, b)
RT-11, and c) DECmate II, seem to work flawlessly, at the physical level,
but exhibit the below-mentioned quirks, logically.
I'll note at this point that the media I'm using is 3M DS/DD 96tpi (_not_
high density), and disks formatted with the 6000 (RT-11) worked perfectly
under RSX-11.
Also:
- The '11/2.11BSD never seem to write the first two sectors, although
no error is returned to this effect; in fact, the data in sector three is
from offset 1024 in the input data (0x0003 in the above example). Is this
due to disk label support or something? The raw (character) device reports
itself as read-only, even for root.
- The remaining data sometimes (but not always; the specific
circumstances involved I have not yet figured out conclusively -- physical
interleave, preexisting data (!), or, something else?) carries an
interleave, though I admit I haven't figured it out yet (meaning I haven't
sat down and done it, not that I don't know how).
Finally, I noticed there is no floppy-specific code in the MSCP driver, so
all the gory details of floppy control (along with the gory details of the
above) must be dealt with by the RQDX3. Anybody got documentation for this
little slice 'o heaven?
And, er, _really_ finally, is it really true that I can put any HD AT
drive (well, any one that sports DS jumpers) on the RQDX3 and it'll
function as an RX33? Does this void my field service contract, as my field
service engineer is growing bored with staying up all night trying to
understand funky DEC floppy hardware, as Parts currently has Guinness on
a 180-day lead and it is a neccessary part of such an operation?
Wonder what DEC would think of allowing (providing?) old PDP hardware docs
for the archive?
JasoMill
> We need more affiliated groups! Bob, you want to lead an IBM group?
> David, how about an encumbered BSD group? Minnie will provide web space,
> archive area, mail list as required.
What sort of interest do we have in doing something like this?
IF the interest was there, I could probably make some time to chair an
IBM RT related group. So far it seems about half a dozen folks were
interested in the RT things. Let's see where it goes.....
Bob
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>From "A. P. Garcia" <apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org> Thu Jun 8 07:58:58 2000
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From: "A. P. Garcia" <apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: unix precursors
Date: 07 Jun 2000 21:58:58 +0000
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I know that www.multicians.org is a nice web site devoted to Multics,
but does anyone know where I can learn more about other precursors to
unix?
Thompson mentions that unix borrows heavily from CTSS. I think that
Corbato wrote a book on this system, but that book seems nearly as
rare as chicken teeth. I think he also wrote an earlier journal
article on the system, which I imagine shouldn't be hard to locate.
Finally, Thompson also mentions that fork() basically existed in its
current form in the Berkeley Timesharing System. That is the one and
only thing I have ever heard about this system. Anyone know where I
can learn more?
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>From Cyrille Lefevre <root(a)gits.dyndns.org> Thu Jun 8 08:14:46 2000
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From: Cyrille Lefevre <root(a)gits.dyndns.org>
Posted-Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 00:14:47 +0200 (CEST)
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Subject: Re: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II
In-Reply-To: <200006060836.KAA24484(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> "from jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de
at Jun 6, 2000 10:36:49 am"
To: jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 00:14:46 +0200 (CEST)
CC: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Reply-To: clefevre(a)citeweb.net
Organization: ACME
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jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote:
> On 6 Jun, Michael Sokolov wrote:
>
> > 4.3BSD-Reno is spoiled and bloated,
> This is what I was waiting for. ;-)
>
> > and won't fit on an RD53.
> I have a Dilog DQ686 MCSP ESDI controler with three 320MB disks hany...
> And a QD33 with two 9" 940MB SMD disks. But these disks are nor very
> hany. ;-)
>
> > The true 4.3BSD however, 4.3BSD-Quasijarus, will.
> Hmm.
>
> [jkunz@MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ file stand.Z
> stand.Z: data
> [jkunz@MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ uncompress -c stand.Z > /bigtmp/tmp/stand
> uncompress: stand.Z: Inappropriate file type or format
>
> The same for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0. This is my local PUPS / TUHS archive
> mirror, rsynced last week. MissSophie is a i386 box with NetBSD 1.4.2.
you have to use the "Quasijarus" compress which is, in the
pups archive, Distributions/4bsd/components/compress.tar.
> > Go to
> >
> > http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
>
> Been there, sounds good, but see above... An other reason was: I wanted
> to install some "original" CSRG stuff. So I took 4.3BSD-Reno. The
> version in the archive is complete and supports my CPU/disk/tape.
Cyrille.
--
home: mailto:clefevre@citeweb.net work: mailto:Cyrille.Lefevre@edf.fr
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> Yes, the RQDX3 is supposed to do this for you so you don't have to deal
> with it, ...
I guess I should have sat down and thought about it, I never even
considered the hardware doing software interleave (quite a dumb thing to
do, IMHO, unless you want to sell preformatted diskettes for use in
systems with widely varying performance characteristics; who would want to
do that :). Thanks, Herr Ivie, for that insight. Also thanks to SMS for
the disklabel enlightenment. I should have a workable solution soon,
though doing the interleave code in 4.4BSD kernelland doesn't seem like
much fun and would reduce the general applicability of the driver (I'd
like to see what the FreeBSD committers would think when I suggest
_that_!); I think I'll just write an "interleave filter" in userland and
leave it at that.
> What sort of info are you looking for? Floppy drivers are a PITA to
write
> and you should be happy the RQDX3 is hiding it from you.
Don't get me wrong, I _am_ happy. I like smart hardware as long as it
doesn't try to second-guess me; I'm a big fan of SCSI. Just a natural
and (usually, but not always) healty curiousity. And I know how much
fun floppy drivers are to write; one of the products developed by my
employer (though before I was thus employed) was a disk conversion system.
And we even used one of the more "intelligent" floppy controllers, an
experimental TI 9909 that handled "pretty much everything" for you (as
long as "pretty much everything" involved writing single-density IBM 8"
diskettes -- reminds me of the line in Raising Arizona, when N. Cage asks
the cashier if he has balloons in funny shapes and he replies: "if you
think a circle is a funny shape"). So I have the source code to a floppy
driver that handles almost any disk type imaginable (as long as the
data rate isn't too high: 2.88MB disks zum beispiel), all written in
assembler and PLM for an 8085; talk about tight code. Speaking of PITA
device control, wasn't it the DEC RX02 that wrote address information in
single density and data in DD?
Once again, thanks for everyone for all the help. I'll have this thing
working soon.
-jtm
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>From Roger Ivie <rivie(a)teraglobal.com> Thu Jun 8 06:54:01 2000
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Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 14:54:01 -0600
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
From: Roger Ivie <rivie(a)teraglobal.com>
Subject: Re: RQDX3 software interleave
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> Speaking of PITA
>device control, wasn't it the DEC RX02 that wrote address information in
>single density and data in DD?
Yes, it was. But it was usually done by the hardware (I suppose that
would be microcode in the case of the RX02), so unless you wanted to
do something foolish like read RX02 diskettes in your DD CP/M machine
or format floppies you don't have to worry about it.
--
Roger Ivie
rivie(a)teraglobal.com
Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation
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> ; In standard RT-PC mode, a 2:1 interleave is used on a single track and
> ; a 2 sector skew is used across tracks.
>
> ("RT-PC" means "RT-11 on a DEC Professional", roughly!)
Gee, let's not forget the old IBM RT-PC dinosaur.....(:+}}...
It was an entirely different beastie by the same name, that I am sure
a few of us have played with over the years. It's a prime candidate for
the UHS style fodder, if there were any interest in the thing besides
with me. Anyone else aboard play with that dinosaur critter?
......
> Terry Kennedy's THIRD-PARTY-DISKS.TXT, available via anonymous FTP
> from
>
> ftp://ftp.spc.edu/third-party-disks.txt
>
> Since this subject comes up several times a year, would it be possible
> to link to the above document from somewhere in the PUPS archive, Warren?
Yes, I would like to see Warren mirror such things, as space and utility
dictate. Sometimes some redundancy in these forgotten lores is good.
I am sure there are other such docs and texts of wisdom that collectively
we should centralize in the archives, space, copyrights, permissions, etc.,
to be worked out in some way. At least, link to the urls, as long as the
urls don't break.
Bob
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Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> wrote:
> At present, Michael Sokolov looks after the 4BSD VAX section of the
> archive under the aegis of the Quasijarus project.
Yes.
> Michael, do you want to continue to do this?
Yes.
> Or should we separate the historical 4BSDs for
> someone to curate while you manage the ongoing Quasijarus work?
No, I do not and will not separate these.
Warren, can we talk about all this sometime later, leaving the affected areas
intact for now? I'm *really* swamped right now.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
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>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Wed Jun 7 16:09:07 2000
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From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
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On Tue, 6 Jun 2000, Jason T. Miller wrote:
[...floppy stuff on 2.11 deleted...]
> $ diff testrx50.img test
> Binary files testrx50.img and test differ
>
> WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it?
Well... No... But...
You later note that 2.11 don't write the first two sectors, even though it
don't give you any errors. So, I'm not surprised by the result. the first
1K are probably very different. Try to compare everything after that 1K
and see if that is the same.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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On Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 02:06:40PM -0500, Jason T. Miller wrote:
> Wonder what DEC would think of allowing (providing?) old PDP hardware docs
> for the archive?
I'm afraid you'd have to ask Mentec.
--
Wilko Bulte FreeBSD, the power to serve http://www.freebsd.orghttp://www.nlfug.nl
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>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Wed Jun 7 05:38:29 2000
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Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:38:29 -0400
From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
Message-Id: <000606153829.20200e60(a)trailing-edge.com>
Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
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>Does anyone have experience using the RX50 floppy drive under 2.11BSD?
Yeah, sure.
> I
>patched my FreeBSD kernel to handle RX50-format (80 cyl / 1 hd / 10 sec)
>diskettes, and noticed what seemed to be some sort of logical sector
>interleave (I also have hardware that does physical diskette reads /
<dumps, which assured me that I was getting the physical data off the disk
>in the order prescribed by the sector ID address marks); so, back to the
>old '11 for another round of test-disk making. My test data was simple
>enough: 512 bytes of 16-bit unsigned integer one, followed by 512 bytes of
>UINT16 2, usw. to UINT16 800; the easier to figure out the interleave, my
>precious... But I didna even get that far: observe (testrx50.img is
>409,600 bytes):
>
> $ dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/ra12a
> 800+0 records in
> 800+0 records out
> $ dd if=/dev/ra12a of=test
> 800+0 records in
> 800+0 records out
> $ diff testrx50.img test
> Binary files testrx50.img and test differ
>
>WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it?
No, it shouldn't, but I'm confused as to where you're doing this at.
Is this on FreeBSD?
>Also:
> - The '11/2.11BSD never seem to write the first two sectors, although
>no error is returned to this effect; in fact, the data in sector three is
>from offset 1024 in the input data (0x0003 in the above example). Is this
>due to disk label support or something? The raw (character) device reports
>itself as read-only, even for root.
This must have something to do with the 2.11BSD disk label. The raw
character device should be writable, can you try rm'ing the appropriate
entries and remaking them with /dev/MAKEDEV?
Also note that you may have to issue a disklabel command to make it
possible for you to clobber the sectors where the disk label would otherwise
live.
> - The remaining data sometimes (but not always; the specific
>circumstances involved I have not yet figured out conclusively -- physical
>interleave, preexisting data (!), or, something else?) carries an
>interleave, though I admit I haven't figured it out yet (meaning I haven't
>sat down and done it, not that I don't know how).
Yes, there is a physical<->logical block interleave on the RX50. See, for
example, John Wilson's PUTR source code ( at ftp://ftp.dbit.com/pub/ibmpc/putr/
- assuming that ftp.dbit.com is back up by now!) for details and
example code.
>Finally, I noticed there is no floppy-specific code in the MSCP driver, so
>all the gory details of floppy control (along with the gory details of the
>above) must be dealt with by the RQDX3.
That's true, the RQDX3 takes care of all that. If you look at any DEC
Professional RX50 driver source code, you'll see the interleave code in there.
For example, from RT-11's DZ.MAC sources:
;
; In standard RT-PC mode, a 2:1 interleave is used on a single track and
; a 2 sector skew is used across tracks.
("RT-PC" means "RT-11 on a DEC Professional", roughly!)
and later, in a breathtaking example of tight driver interleave code
(really, study it very closely, this is good stuff!):
; Normal I/O, convert block number to track and sector number and interleave
;
ASL R2 ;Make word count unsigned byte count
MOV (PC)+,R4 ;Loop count for 8 bit division
.BYTE -7.,-10. ;Count becomes 0, -10 in high byte for later
50$: CMP #1280.,R5 ;Does 10 go into dividend (10.*200)?
BHI 60$ ;Branch if not, C-bit clear
ADD #-1280.,R5 ;Subtract 10 from dividend, and set C-bit
;(10.*200)
60$: ROL R5 ;Shift dividend and quotient
INCB R4 ;Decrement loop count
BLE 50$ ;Branch until divide done
MOVB R5,R1 ;Copy track number 0:79, zero extend
ADD R4,R5 ;Make sector < 0
MOV R1,R4 ;Copy track number
ASL R1 ;Multiply by 2 (skew)
70$: SUB #10.,R1 ;Reduce track number * 2 MOD 10
BGT 70$ ; to find offset for this track, -10:0
MOV R1,TRKOFF ;Save it
BR 100$ ;Go save parameters and start
>And, er, _really_ finally, is it really true that I can put any HD AT
>drive (well, any one that sports DS jumpers) on the RQDX3 and it'll
>function as an RX33? Does this void my field service contract, as my field
>service engineer is growing bored with staying up all night trying to
>understand funky DEC floppy hardware, as Parts currently has Guinness on
>a 180-day lead and it is a neccessary part of such an operation?
The DEC RX33 floppy drive *is* a TEAC FD55GFR, also commonly found
on PC-clones.
Not just *any* HD AT floppy drive will work. Not only does it need
to support the drive select jumpers, it also needs a bit more jumper
configurability. The exact jumper settings vary depending on which
exact FD55 model and revision you're using. As of a few months
ago many of the jumper setting legends were decoded on the spec sheets
you could get from TEAC's faxback service.
The standard reference on this subject for the past decade has been
Terry Kennedy's THIRD-PARTY-DISKS.TXT, available via anonymous FTP
from
ftp://ftp.spc.edu/third-party-disks.txt
Since this subject comes up several times a year, would it be possible
to link to the above document from somewhere in the PUPS archive, Warren?
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
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>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Wed Jun 7 05:59:51 2000
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Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:59:51 -0400
From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Message-Id: <000606155951.20200e60(a)trailing-edge.com>
Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
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>> Wonder what DEC would think of allowing (providing?) old PDP hardware docs
>> for the archive?
>I'm afraid you'd have to ask Mentec.
No, Mentec doesn't (generally) own the rights to those. Mentec owns the
rights to several former DEC OS's, most notably RT-11, RSX-11M, RSX-11M+,
and RSTS/E, and many of the corresponding layered products. But they
don't even own all the former DEC PDP-11 software; for instance, they
don't have XXDP, DOS-11, PAL-11, etc...
Of probable interest to many of the readers of this mailing list,
Mentec is gearing up to offer a hobbyist license for the RT, RSX-11M, RSX-11M+,
and RSTS/E. Note, in particular, that there is a "PDP-11 Hobbyist" link
on Mentec's page at
http://www.mentec.com/mentecinc/default.asp
The link is currently disabled, but I expect it'll be active in the next
week or so.
Tim.
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>From Roger Ivie <rivie(a)teraglobal.com> Wed Jun 7 06:12:14 2000
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Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:12:14 -0600
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
From: Roger Ivie <rivie(a)teraglobal.com>
Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
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>Does anyone have experience using the RX50 floppy drive under 2.11BSD? I
>patched my FreeBSD kernel to handle RX50-format (80 cyl / 1 hd / 10 sec)
>diskettes, and noticed what seemed to be some sort of logical sector
>interleave (I also have hardware that does physical diskette reads /
>dumps, which assured me that I was getting the physical data off the disk
>in the order prescribed by the sector ID address marks);
Yes, there is a software interleave on RX50 diskettes. It also varies
from system
to system; I'm pretty certain PDP-11s and VAXes use the same software
interleave
(otherwise you couldn't exchange diskettes between a Pro350 and a MicroVAX II),
but the DECmate II and III use a different software interleave. I
have a memo here
somewhere; it's getting a bit faded, perhaps I should do an underground HTML
translation of it... Ah yes, here it is:
DEC format supported by RQDX controller (this is 1984, so the only
RQDX controller
is RQDX1 at the time) used by Pro300, Micro-PDPs, MicroVAX I:
- 10 sectors per track
- 2 for 1 interleaving with 3 to 1 intercylinder skew
- Physical track # = (LBN/10) + 1 with wraparound to track 0 [IOW, logical
track 0 is physical track 1 and physical track 0 is logical track 79]
- Physical sector # = X ( m ) where m = LBN mod 50, n = m/10, c = m mod 10:
|c=0|c=1|c=2|c=3|c=4|c=5|c=6|c=7|c=8|c=9|
---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
n=0| 01| 03| 05| 07| 09| 02| 04| 06| 08| 10|
---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
n=1| 03| 05| 07| 09| 01| 04| 06| 08| 10| 02|
---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
n=2| 05| 07| 09| 01| 03| 06| 08| 10| 02| 04|
---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
n=3| 07| 09| 01| 03| 05| 08| 10| 02| 04| 06|
---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
n=4| 09| 01| 03| 05| 07| 10| 02| 04| 06| 08|
---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
DECmates and Rainbows don't use an intercylinder skew. Rainbows have the
whacky logical track wrapping while DECmates don't.
Yes, the RQDX3 is supposed to do this for you so you don't have to deal
with it, unless you're foolishly trying to read DECmate or Rainbow disks
on an RQDX3, at which point you need to carefully figure out how the lack
of intercylinder skew on the DECmates interacts with the cylinder skew
on the RQDX3.
I know the RQDX3 implements the soft interleave because I did the firmware
for Digital's SCSI floppy controller. I maintained that the device driver
should deal with the interleave because it varies from format to format and
the SCSI controller can't tell whether a particular RX50 is a DECmate RX50
or a VAX RX50. VMS didn't want to deal with the soft interleave because they
don't have to on the RQDX3. I lost the fight and had to go back into the
SCSI controller and rev the firmware to deal with the soft interleave.
> $ dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/ra12a
> 800+0 records in
> 800+0 records out
> $ dd if=/dev/ra12a of=test
> 800+0 records in
> 800+0 records out
> $ diff testrx50.img test
> Binary files testrx50.img and test differ
>
>WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it?
No, it shouldn't, at least AFAIK.
> In my late-night screwings-around,
>I recall the following Additional Facts:
> - Disks formatted with my PC floppy drive (using my kernel hacks -
>available on request [although until I get them working, no guarantees in
>re: their applicability to this or any other use; although I will attest
>that they won't make your kernel crash, at least not in 4.0-STABLE])
>usually work okay, but sometimes give hard errors.
This shouldn't be a problem. There are some potential difficulties
involving the gap lengths; IIRC it's possible to format floppies that
work on a PC but don't work with the HDC 9224 used on the RQDX3 because
the 9224 requires a little bit more time to clean itself up in one of
the gaps. Unfortunately, I don't recall the details; this was all a long
time ago. I think it involves the gap between the header and data fields of
a sector, but don't hold me to that.
>I'll note at this point that the media I'm using is 3M DS/DD 96tpi (_not_
>high density), and disks formatted with the 6000 (RT-11) worked perfectly
>under RSX-11.
That's good. You should not be using high-density disks.
>Finally, I noticed there is no floppy-specific code in the MSCP driver, so
>all the gory details of floppy control (along with the gory details of the
>above) must be dealt with by the RQDX3. Anybody got documentation for this
>little slice 'o heaven?
What sort of info are you looking for? Floppy drivers are a PITA to write
and you should be happy the RQDX3 is hiding it from you.
>And, er, _really_ finally, is it really true that I can put any HD AT
>drive (well, any one that sports DS jumpers) on the RQDX3 and it'll
>function as an RX33?
The DEC drive changes speed based on the head write current signal of
the interface. AT drives don't change speed; the data separator on an
AT controller runs at 300KHz for low-density instead of 250KHz to deal
with that little slice o' heaven. If you stick any HD AT drive on an
RQDX3, you may be able to read high-density disks, but you probably will
not be able to read low-density disks (i.e., RX50s).
Oh yeah. Since the DEC drives change speed, that means there's an extra
little slice o' heaven in the floppy support code to wait for the drive
to change speed when the density changes. Are you _sure_ you want
documentation for that little slice o' heaven?
--
Roger Ivie
rivie(a)teraglobal.com
Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation
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jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote:
> [jkunz@MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ file stand.Z=20
> stand.Z: data
> [jkunz@MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ uncompress -c stand.Z > /bigtmp/t=
> mp/stand
> uncompress: stand.Z: Inappropriate file type or format
See
http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/compress.html
> An other reason was: I wanted
> to install some "original" CSRG stuff. So I took 4.3BSD-Reno.
4.3BSD-Quasijarus is more original CSRG than 4.3BSD-Reno. Reno doesn't follow
the True UNIX line of V1 thru V7 thru 4.3BSD, Quasijarus does. Reno breaks all
traditional CSRG ideology and is not CSRG in any way other than having been
built in Evans Hall. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus hasn't been built in Evans Hall, but is
CSRG in every other way.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
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> I have an incomplete set of Pro/Venix. A couple of
> the floppies are bad. I would like to find a copy
> of Pro/Venix that is installable, as it is more
> flexible than Venix/Pro. If anyone out there has
> any Pro/Venix floppies, I'd be grateful to hear about
> it.
>
I thought this one was up on uu.se site. I got my copy from there years
ago.
Allison
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jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote:
> Today I tried to install 4.3BSD-Reno on a MicroVAX II. The machine has
> 13MB RAM, DHV11, TK50, DELQA, one RD53 with RQDX3 and a Sigma DLV11-J
> clone.
4.3BSD-Reno is spoiled and bloated, and won't fit on an RD53. The true 4.3BSD,
however, 4.3BSD-Quasijarus, will. Go to
http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
to learn about the project and subscribe to its mailing list, then ask any
further questions there.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
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>From "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> Tue Jun 6 11:12:19 2000
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From: "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com>
To: <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
References: <200006052246.AAA20067(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
Subject: profesional 350 & 380
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 19:12:19 -0600
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Hi all,
Any chance to get a unix running on them ?
cheers & thanks,
emanuel
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>From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Tue Jun 6 13:50:14 2000
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To: emanuel stiebler <emu(a)ecubics.com>
CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: profesional 350 & 380
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There are at least two *NIXes that run on the Pro.
There are apparently patches for 2.9BSD available
that allow that version to run on the Pro. I don't
have any experience with that.
There are two versions of Venix that run on the Pro.
1) Venix/Pro came directly from Venturecom.
It exists in Version 1 and Version 2.
2) Pro/Venix came from DEC, but was a slight
rework of Venix originally from Venturecom.
I.e., DEC worked over Venix/Pro and issued a
version itself called Pro/Venix.
Venix/Pro versions 1 and 2 are available from the
archives at ftp.update.uu.se. This means, ostensibly,
that Venix/Pro is in the "public domain". Pro/Venix
could also be in the public domain, subject to the
Ancient Unix License, since it originates from Version
7 and System III from AT&T. Bob Supnick, who was at
DEC, once stated he saw no reason why it couldn't be
a part of the PUPS archive under the AU License.
I have an incomplete set of Pro/Venix. A couple of
the floppies are bad. I would like to find a copy
of Pro/Venix that is installable, as it is more
flexible than Venix/Pro. If anyone out there has
any Pro/Venix floppies, I'd be grateful to hear about
it.
Thanks,
Dave
emanuel stiebler wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> Any chance to get a unix running on them ?
>
> cheers & thanks,
> emanuel
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>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Tue Jun 6 16:01:20 2000
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Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 08:01:20 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: emanuel stiebler <emu(a)ecubics.com>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: profesional 350 & 380
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On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, emanuel stiebler wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Any chance to get a unix running on them ?
There is Venix. I even think it's free now...
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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Hi.
Today I tried to install 4.3BSD-Reno on a MicroVAX II. The machine has
13MB RAM, DHV11, TK50, DELQA, one RD53 with RQDX3 and a Sigma DLV11-J
clone. I created a boot tape using a netbooted NetBSD 1.4.2 on this
machine. I dd-ed "stand", "miniroot" and "rootdump" onto a tape with
the blocksizes listed in the file "Rick_Copeland_Note". I also used
"maketape" from the 2.11BSD distribution.
>>> b mua0
2..1..0..
?06 HLT INST
PC = 00074C1E
>>>
Every time the same. :-(
Do I make a mistake? Is my hardware not supported? Is there a other way
to get 4.3BSD-Reno instaled? (Puting a disklabel, ffs and data with
NetBSD onto the disk, but how to boot?) ???
--
tschüß,
Jochen
Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/
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Hi all,
Well I've had a few comments back from people about the future of
things on the PUPS & TUHS front. I've sat down & knocked up a short
proposal which I'd be happy with. The overarching goal is to give everybody
what they want :-) Anyway, send me comments and suggestions, or plain old
disagreements!
Thanks,
Warren
A Discussion Paper on The Future of PUPS, TUHS and the Archive
==============================================================
Policy
------
The PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society (PUPS) goes back to being a group
specifically focussed on the versions of Unix for the PDP-11 platform.
The Unix Heritage Society (TUHS) will be an umbrella group to support
efforts to preserve or maintain all versions of Unix that are no longer
considered to be mainstream. The type of support is outlined below.
Mechanism
---------
The pups@minnie mailing list will remain an ``all-encompassing'' mailing
list for those people who are active in, or interested in, the aims of the
Unix Heritage Society. It will be renamed to be tuhs(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
If enough people request it, a PUPS-specific mailing list will be set up.
As part of TUHS aim of support, mailing lists on minnie can be set up
for those groups who wish to come under the TUHS umbrella. One or more
people from each group will be the list maintainer.
If the information is not huge, minnie can offer web space for these
groups, too. I'm already doing this for the Quasijarus project.
The PUPS Archive will be renamed `The Unix Heritage Archive'. The top-level
will contain files & information that is generic. There will be sublevels
in the form platform/vendor/version. We might need some other categories
for multi-platform systems like the 4BSDs. As an example, nearly all of the
current archive will move under a PDP-11/ directory. But directories like
Applications/ and Lists/ will stay where they are.
If possible and where there are volunteers, each section of the archive
will be maintained by its own maintainer. Minnie will provide disk space
for all sections, so that there is a `one-stop' place to keep things.
However, some groups may want to maintain a separate archive & existence.
In this case, TUHS will set up pointers to their efforts.
Volunteers & Mirrors
--------------------
Some of the existing volunteers and archive mirror maintainers may not
wish to maintain a copy of the full TUHS archive. That's their perogative.
In fact, it might be useful to `name' each section of the full archive.
For example, someone might only want to mirror the VAX section. Perhaps
this can be called the VAX Unix Archive.
I can modify the mechanism of ordering archive copies so that:
+ specific volunteers can nominate which archive sections they carry
+ requesters can order specific sections, or all, and find out how
big each section is
+ requests will only be sent to those volunteers who can do them
Copyright & License Issues
--------------------------
At present, most things in the archive are protected by licenses and/or
copyright. This probably isn't going to change soon. The current mechanisms
to ensure access by license holders will be preserved.
Given the aims of TUHS, I am prepared to keep in the archive anything that
is Unix-related for antiquated or non-mainstream systems. We may not
be able to release some of this due to license or copyright reasons. In
that case, it will be kept hidden away in the archive until it can be
released. It won't be mirrored or be available for copying in any way
until that time.
A Personal Note
---------------
I'd like to maintain the PDP-11 archive, and initially do the TUHS stuff
(including web pages, mailing lists, top-level of the archive). I'll set
up platform-specific (or other-specific) levels as long as there is someone
who will volunteer to maintain that area, and any web pages and mailing
lists associated with them.
It would also be a good idea to have an understudy or two in the wings,
just in case I get hit by a bus or something.
Conclusion
----------
I'm sure there are other issues (especially implementation ones) that
I've missed above, but hopefully you get the general idea of my proposal
for future direction of PUPS and TUHS.
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>From Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk> Sat Jun 3 17:57:30 2000
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Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 08:57:30 +0100
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au
Cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
From: Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Warren's Position on Future of PUPS/TUHS
References: <200006030158.LAA08504(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
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In message <200006030158.LAA08504(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>, Warren Toomey
<wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> writes
>Hi all,
> Well I've had a few comments back from people about the future of
>things on the PUPS & TUHS front. I've sat down & knocked up a short
>proposal which I'd be happy with. The overarching goal is to give everybody
>what they want :-) Anyway, send me comments and suggestions, or plain old
>disagreements!
>
>Thanks,
> Warren
>
Sounds basically ok to me
Robin
>
> A Discussion Paper on The Future of PUPS, TUHS and the Archive
> ==============================================================
>
>Policy
>------
>
>The PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society (PUPS) goes back to being a group
>specifically focussed on the versions of Unix for the PDP-11 platform.
>
>The Unix Heritage Society (TUHS) will be an umbrella group to support
>efforts to preserve or maintain all versions of Unix that are no longer
>considered to be mainstream. The type of support is outlined below.
>
>Mechanism
>---------
>
>The pups@minnie mailing list will remain an ``all-encompassing'' mailing
>list for those people who are active in, or interested in, the aims of the
>Unix Heritage Society. It will be renamed to be tuhs(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
>If enough people request it, a PUPS-specific mailing list will be set up.
>
>As part of TUHS aim of support, mailing lists on minnie can be set up
>for those groups who wish to come under the TUHS umbrella. One or more
>people from each group will be the list maintainer.
>
>If the information is not huge, minnie can offer web space for these
>groups, too. I'm already doing this for the Quasijarus project.
>
>The PUPS Archive will be renamed `The Unix Heritage Archive'. The top-level
>will contain files & information that is generic. There will be sublevels
>in the form platform/vendor/version. We might need some other categories
>for multi-platform systems like the 4BSDs. As an example, nearly all of the
>current archive will move under a PDP-11/ directory. But directories like
>Applications/ and Lists/ will stay where they are.
>
>If possible and where there are volunteers, each section of the archive
>will be maintained by its own maintainer. Minnie will provide disk space
>for all sections, so that there is a `one-stop' place to keep things.
>However, some groups may want to maintain a separate archive & existence.
>In this case, TUHS will set up pointers to their efforts.
>
>
>Volunteers & Mirrors
>--------------------
>
>Some of the existing volunteers and archive mirror maintainers may not
>wish to maintain a copy of the full TUHS archive. That's their perogative.
>In fact, it might be useful to `name' each section of the full archive.
>For example, someone might only want to mirror the VAX section. Perhaps
>this can be called the VAX Unix Archive.
>
>I can modify the mechanism of ordering archive copies so that:
>
> + specific volunteers can nominate which archive sections they carry
> + requesters can order specific sections, or all, and find out how
> big each section is
> + requests will only be sent to those volunteers who can do them
>
>
>Copyright & License Issues
>--------------------------
>
>At present, most things in the archive are protected by licenses and/or
>copyright. This probably isn't going to change soon. The current mechanisms
>to ensure access by license holders will be preserved.
>
>Given the aims of TUHS, I am prepared to keep in the archive anything that
>is Unix-related for antiquated or non-mainstream systems. We may not
>be able to release some of this due to license or copyright reasons. In
>that case, it will be kept hidden away in the archive until it can be
>released. It won't be mirrored or be available for copying in any way
>until that time.
>
>A Personal Note
>---------------
>
>I'd like to maintain the PDP-11 archive, and initially do the TUHS stuff
>(including web pages, mailing lists, top-level of the archive). I'll set
>up platform-specific (or other-specific) levels as long as there is someone
>who will volunteer to maintain that area, and any web pages and mailing
>lists associated with them.
>
>It would also be a good idea to have an understudy or two in the wings,
>just in case I get hit by a bus or something.
>
>Conclusion
>----------
>
>I'm sure there are other issues (especially implementation ones) that
>I've missed above, but hopefully you get the general idea of my proposal
>for future direction of PUPS and TUHS.
____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk
M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD Old computers and radios always welcome
Interesting, there may be a PDPsomethingorother machine come available in
surplus here. A quick glance at it showed it to be in a 1/2 height rack,
with some custom name that meant nothing to me. But, it had two rack
cabinets about 6 inches high each, with definite looking DEC cards,
4 wide cards, with an interconnecting cable between the two cases.
The thing had a half gig scsi drive and scsi tape (60 or 150mb).
Alas, I was able only to make a quick glance at it, before I had to
leave. What might such a critter actually be? It had half a dozen
RS232 terminal lines out the back, and a wyse terminal sitting on top
of the case. It is not the kind of thing the PeeCee mongers are going
to dive into, so it might go for a song if I wait a couple of weeks.
It was not DEC badged, but definitely had what I would interpret as
DEC boards inside.
Bob
jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote:
> If you want a modern Unix OS [...]
If he did, why would he want a VAX? Someone who detests "modern" pee sea
hardware and prefers the vastly superior classical DEC stuff (like I do) would
surely feel the same way about software (again like I do). Why should one treat
hardware and software differently in this respect? Why mix-and-match the
wonderful classical hardware with crappy bloated "modern" software?
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
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>From Brian Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com> Sat May 27 08:21:49 2000
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Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:21:49 -0700
From: Brian Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: Dead MicroVAX II :(
In-Reply-To: <0005262051.AA18987(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>
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On Fri, 26 May 2000, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote:
> > If you want a modern Unix OS [...]
>
> If he did, why would he want a VAX? Someone who detests "modern" pee
> sea hardware and prefers the vastly superior classical DEC stuff (like
> I do) would surely feel the same way about software (again like I do).
> Why should one treat hardware and software differently in this
> respect? Why mix-and-match the wonderful classical hardware with
> crappy bloated "modern" software?
This list is definitely geared towards people running classic OSes on
classic systems. I actually really enjoy having lots of the bloated
modern hardware running on my VAXen. So much contemporary software
compiles and runs right out of the tarballs under NetBSD/vax. And
honestly, a lot of it performs quite admirably on even my humblest of
MicroVAX II's.
I see nothing incompatible with loving modern OSes running well on ancient
hardware. :-)
-brian.
--- Brian Chase | bdc(a)world.std.com | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ -----
All math equations have a fistfight on at least one side. -- K.
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David O'Brien <obrien(a)NUXI.com> wrote:
> The port-vax(a)netbsd.org list is full of very VAX clueful people.
So is quasijarus(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
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In article by Mike W.:
> I have a digital microvax II in a 'world case'. I was wondering how to
> hook it up and make it fly. I was told that it runs the Micro VMS OS,
> but no to get get it on the machine, Model: one of two: VS12W-B2 or
> V512W-B2. It is an old sticker, could be a 5 or an S. A tape drive is
> installed, but no tape disk came with it. Is there another OS it can
> run?
Yes, it will run UNIX, the timesharing system by Ritchie and Thompson, Berkeley
VAX version thereof, the current version of which is 4.3BSD-Quasijarus
maintained by me, the WWW page for which is:
http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/
Running UNIX requires a UNIX source license (True UNIX never had, doesn't have,
and never will have a concept of "binary only"), but these days SCO gives them
out for FREE! You have a tape drive, so you will have no problem with
installation. I have supply you with the boot tape, but you'll have to
reimburse me for the tape and shipping.
> How do I hook up the Console to work on it. For that matter, what does
> the console look like?
You need a standard RS-232 terminal. The console port connector on the MicroVAX
is of a rather odd standard, though. A DEC BCC05 or BCC08 cable will connect it
to a standard RS-232 DB25M terminal. If you want or have to make your own
cable, I've got the pinout for the MicroVAX console port connector somewhere.
> [...] nothing on 'where and
> how the cables go on the back (bulkhead).
The I/O distribution panel on the back provides external connections for all
Q-bus modules you have. You'll have to tell us what Q-bus modules you have so
that we can tell you what external connections they need. You obviously have
the CPU, which has one external connection: the console port which I just told
you about.
> I need to know how, why and
> when to turn the knobs on the back.
On the CPU module bulkhead there are two knobs and one switch. One knob selects
the console port baud rate. I think this one is obvious. You can use any of the
baud rates printed around the knob, but 9600 baud is standard. The other knob
selects between normal operation (the arrow icon), console language selection
(the talking face icon), and console port loopback test (the T in the circle
icon). I always leave it on the arrow icon. Finally, the switch selects between
maintenance mode (halt enabled, stay in the console on power-up) and production
mode (halt disabled, boot the OS on power-up). These correspond to the dot-
inside-the-circle and dot-outside-the-circle icons, respectively. For now leave
the dot inside the circle.
For more info subscribe to the Quasijarus mailing list and ask there. Send
subscription requests to:
quasijarus-request(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
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