TUHS

tuhs@tuhs.org

43 participants
6501 discussions

by Jason T. Miller

> I freshly formatted a floppy. That's one nice thing about the RX33, > the RQDX3 can format floppies using ZRQF?? - RX50's meant getting > preformat'd media or a Rainbow to do the formatting from what I > remember. Unless you have a Shaffstall 6000 -- a really cool piece of equipment once made by my current employer, which is basically a box full of floppy drives (3.5" HD, 5.25" 48tpi, 5.25" 96tpi, 8", and a few, but not mine, have the Amstrad 3" 'flippy-disk') which are all _really_ well-aligned (20% better than OEM spec) and an intelligent disk controller (which is actually an 8085-based SBC) in a PC. About the only disks I _can't_ read (or write or format) with this thing are the 2.88MB 3.5" 'extended-density' disks -- and I have a NeXTstation to read those. Needless to say, I've got no problem formatting RX50s, in any interleave. > write: Read-only file system > 2+0 records in > 2+0 records out That's what I get. > That probably should have been 2+0 and 1+0 since dd read two sectors but > only successfully wrote one. A bug in 'dd' perhaps that it doesn't > decrement the output count on a write error. I noticed that, too. > After doing the "disklabel -W ra9" the "dd" works fine and the floppy > compares identical to the input file. Still haven't tried it. Had to watch the Pacers game and get some needed sleep. > The MSCP driver hasn't changed in quite a while so if you retrieved > 2.11 fairly recently the problem's not a bug in ra.c that I can > see (or if it is, it's particular to the RX50 somehow). I've gone over ra.c several times -- that's a fun piece of code. I've written device drivers before, but really, was this a test of DEC software engineers by DEC hardware engineers? > One more thing I stuffed into the system. You'll also find > "sigaction" and friends along with RTS/CTS flowcontrol (for devices > which support it), and numerous other goodies imported from 4.4BSD (the > latest addition was 'pselect(2)' just a couple months ago). Well, all my serial cables are three-wire (yes, I'm lazy, but I get 1.8K/sec via SLIP at 19200, so I'm not too concerned), but the 'numerous other goodies' I like. As for the userland environment, it's "vanilla BSD" and that's exactly what I know and love. Give me 2.11BSD on a PDP over Solaris on an UltraSPARC any day (well, if anyone wants to _give me_ and UltraSPARC, I'll do the responsible thing and reevaluate my claims -- and SunOS [4.1.x that is] is a decent OS, but anyway, I digress). The only thing I want is command history and filename completion in the Bourne shell (having grown used to Bash -- although it's a big memory pig and I admit I use it only for the previously mentioned features, though I like the PS variable magic characters, too -- I'm thinking about trying to hack the CH features of tcsh (never been a C shell fan) into sh, maybe we should start a 2BSD 'ports' collection? Any suggestions for a name of this shell? Any suggestions for freeing up my time to write it :)? Also, when I get my RX50 toolset for FreeBSD working, should I put it in the archive? It'd probably be more interesting to PUPS'ers than the FreeBSD community At Large. -jtm Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA29341 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:43:34 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Eric Fischer <enf(a)pobox.com> Fri Jun 9 08:41:25 2000 Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA29337 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:43:29 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from enf(a)shell-2.enteract.com) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (enf(a)shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA75007; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 17:41:25 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from enf(a)shell-2.enteract.com) Received: (from enf@localhost) by shell-2.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA99748; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 17:41:25 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from enf) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 17:41:25 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <200006082241.RAA99748(a)shell-2.enteract.com> From: Eric Fischer <enf(a)pobox.com> To: pdub(a)accesscom.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: unix precursors In-Reply-To: <393F04A1.2A71E151(a)accesscom.com> References: <m21z29f90d.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain> <200006072250.RAA82201(a)shell-1.enteract.com> <393F04A1.2A71E151(a)accesscom.com> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Paul West writes, > BTW, there apparently were two different timesharing systems developed > for the PDP-1, the second one coming from Bolt, Beranek, and Newman > (BBN). Thanks for reminding me about the Jack Dennis article -- I had forgotten about that one. There were, I think, at least *four* time-sharing systems for the PDP-1. Besides the MIT and BBN ones, there was also the Hospital Computer Project (I'm not sure whether that one was descended from the early BBN system or was written from scratch) and the THOR system at Stanford. I can't give proper citations because I'm currently 2000 miles from my book collection. eric Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA29456 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:00:50 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Fri Jun 9 08:58:44 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA29452 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:00:48 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id IAA05733; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:58:44 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200006082258.IAA05733(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: tcsh on 2.11BSD In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006081444001.7342-100000(a)guildenstern.shaffstall.com> from "Jason T. Miller" at "Jun 8, 2000 3:40:15 pm" To: jasomill(a)shaffstall.com (Jason T. Miller) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:58:44 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Jason T. Miller: > The only thing I want is > command history and filename completion in the Bourne shell (having grown > used to Bash -- although it's a big memory pig and I admit I use it only > for the previously mentioned features, though I like the PS variable magic > characters, too -- I'm thinking about trying to hack the CH features of > tcsh (never been a C shell fan) into sh, maybe we should start a 2BSD > 'ports' collection? Any suggestions for a name of this shell? Any > suggestions for freeing up my time to write it :)? I thought there was a port of an early tcsh to 2.*BSD? Maybe I have poor memory. Anyway, I believe that Minix has a very tiny editline(), which could be squeezed into the 2.11BSD csh to give you command-line editing. > Also, when I get my RX50 toolset for FreeBSD working, should I put it in > the archive? It'd probably be more interesting to PUPS'ers than the > FreeBSD community At Large. Yep, it will go into Tools/ Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA29574 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:24:11 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Eric Fischer <enf(a)pobox.com> Fri Jun 9 09:21:44 2000 Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA29569 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:24:05 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from enf(a)shell-1.enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (enf(a)shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA81631; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 18:21:44 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from enf(a)shell-1.enteract.com) Received: (from enf@localhost) by shell-1.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA57997; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 18:21:44 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from enf) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 18:21:44 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <200006082321.SAA57997(a)shell-1.enteract.com> From: Eric Fischer <enf(a)pobox.com> To: lars(a)nocrew.org Subject: Re: unix precursors In-Reply-To: <85snuoenl3.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> References: <m21z29f90d.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain> <85snuoenl3.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Lars Brinkhoff writes, > How about ITS, did it influence Unix? If nothing else, the "more" program began as a copy of an ITS feature. And people think of emacs as a Unix program, but it came to Unix from ITS and brought with it things like the "info" documentation format. eric Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA29906 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:28:15 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Paul West <pdub(a)accesscom.com> Fri Jun 9 10:27:13 2000 Received: from ns2.accesscom.com (root(a)ns2.accesscom.com [64.240.196.3]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA29902 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:28:11 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from pdub(a)accesscom.com) Received: from accesscom.com (ppp19.dialup.accesscom.com [64.240.200.19]) by ns2.accesscom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id RAA28066; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 17:25:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ns2.accesscom.com: Host ppp19.dialup.accesscom.com [64.240.200.19] claimed to be accesscom.com Message-ID: <394039E1.ED6AB226(a)accesscom.com> Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 17:27:13 -0700 From: Paul West <pdub(a)accesscom.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: unix precursors References: <m21z29f90d.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain> <85snuoenl3.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk lars brinkhoff wrote: > How about ITS, did it influence Unix? ITS was quite idiosyncratic, and I do not recall that Richie or Thompson ever mentioned it as an influence on Unix. But you can judge for yourself, if you want. The ITS Reference manual is available at "ftp://publications.ai.mit.edu/ai-publications/0-499/AIM-161A.ps" The source code and system documentation for ITS has been released under the GPL, and is at "ftp://fpt.swiss.ai.mit.edu/pub/its". Happy historical hunting! Paul Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA29925 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:31:08 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Paul West <pdub(a)accesscom.com> Fri Jun 9 10:29:55 2000 Received: from ns2.accesscom.com (root(a)ns2.accesscom.com [64.240.196.3]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA29916 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:30:50 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from pdub(a)accesscom.com) Received: from accesscom.com (ppp19.dialup.accesscom.com [64.240.200.19]) by ns2.accesscom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id RAA28267; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 17:28:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ns2.accesscom.com: Host ppp19.dialup.accesscom.com [64.240.200.19] claimed to be accesscom.com Message-ID: <39403A83.CDDC2592(a)accesscom.com> Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 17:29:55 -0700 From: Paul West <pdub(a)accesscom.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: unix precursors (corrected URL) References: <m21z29f90d.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain> <85snuoenl3.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Sorry for the repeat, I mistyped a URL in the first version. Paul --- lars brinkhoff wrote: > How about ITS, did it influence Unix? ITS was quite idiosyncratic, and I do not recall that Richie or Thompson ever mentioned it as an influence on Unix. But you can judge for yourself, if you want. The ITS Reference manual is available at "ftp://publications.ai.mit.edu/ai-publications/0-499/AIM-161A.ps" The source code and system documentation for ITS has been released under the GPL, and is at "ftp://ftp.swiss.ai.mit.edu/pub/its". Happy historical hunting! Paul Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA32362 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 19:09:04 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)indiana.edu> Fri Jun 9 18:55:11 2000 Received: from sam.on-net.net (sam.on-net.net [204.117.190.8]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA32358 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 19:09:00 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jasomill(a)indiana.edu) Received: from as45.onet.net (as45.onet.net [207.40.154.45]) by sam.on-net.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA11456 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 04:05:03 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 03:55:11 -0500 (EST) From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)indiana.edu> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: RX50 read/write on FreeBSD Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0006090342330.4154-100000(a)lizard.indiana.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Thanks to the good advice of members of the PUPS mailing list, I've completed my first stab at an RX50 read/write toolset for FreeBSD. It consists of two parts, a kernel patch to add the physical format, and a filter set to deal with the logical sector interleave. It's ugly (not only does it only support stdin and stdout, but it uses both 'goto' and the ternary operator; I tend to deeply offend the C style gods, late at night when I think nobody's watching), but it seems to work pretty well. The kernel patch, at least, is clean. Those with good karma and flawlessly aligned drive heads can even try formatting their own RX50s. So how do I submit it to the archive? "incoming" seems to be RO. It's about 3K, tarred and gzipped. Jason T. Miller Self-styled Jack of England "..." -Anonymous Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA33589 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 23:19:02 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com> Fri Jun 9 23:14:11 2000 Received: from sam.on-net.net (sam.on-net.net [204.117.190.8]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA33585 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 23:18:57 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jasomill(a)shaffstall.com) Received: from guildenstern.shaffstall.com (cisdn-2 [206.229.84.2]) by sam.on-net.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA17942; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:14:52 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:14:11 -0500 (EST) From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com> To: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: tcsh on 2.11BSD In-Reply-To: <200006082258.IAA05733(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006090801130.8604-100000(a)guildenstern.shaffstall.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > I thought there was a port of an early tcsh to 2.*BSD? Maybe I have poor > memory. Anyway, I believe that Minix has a very tiny editline(), which > could be squeezed into the 2.11BSD csh to give you command-line editing. Yup. There's a tcsh included in 2.11BSD; thing is, I'm partial to the Bourne shell. Hence, a project. > > Also, when I get my RX50 toolset for FreeBSD working, should I put it in > > the archive? It'd probably be more interesting to PUPS'ers than the > > FreeBSD community At Large. > > Yep, it will go into Tools/ Well, it's kind of ugly (okay, really ugly), but it's working pretty well. The physical I/O portion is a (miniscule) patch against the 4.0-STABLE FreeBSD kernel, but the interleave filters are pretty much standard C (hideous C, but no BSD tricks) and should work on any raw I/O read of an RX50 disk (you can do it in Linux without kernel mods; see setfdprm(8)). Of course, the filters are only applicable to PDP-11-ish or VAX-ish RX50s; Rainbow and DECmate disks are totally different; if someone wants to implement those things, go ahead (Rainbow MS-DOS could be had with careful mods to mtools, and there are a billion ways to skin a CP/M disk; haven't seen anything on UNIX to handle the DEC WPS file management system, but I digress), but they have little to do with UNIX on the PDP and less to do with me personally (my loving father having discarded my DECmate II as junk about ten years ago). -jtm Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA34013 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 00:57:18 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

Re: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again....

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote: > If Quasijarus > builds like CSRG 4.3 did, with pcc [...] It does. > [...] it can't even use the optimizer *at all* > for the kernel build, due to severe bugs [...] Wrong, 4.3BSD-Quasijarus *does* use the optimizer for the kernel build, as did plain 4.3BSD, running c2 -i for the drivers and normally for everything else. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)

24 years, 11 months

Re: RQDX3 software interleave

by allisonp＠world.std.com

> And in those cases, you loose as well. The RX02 uses a micro-engine to > control the drive. No chip controller can switch density in the middle of > the track, so RX02 floppies will forever be in the domain of RX02 drives > only. IF you must transfer RX02 resident files to a non dec system the only choice is another RX02 or compatable (DSD880 and friends). However, if that is available the disk can be reformatted to SSSD, data written to it and then standard floppy contoller chips and systems that can handle 8" media will work just fine. RX50 and RX33 formatting do not have this liability. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA27345 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 01:38:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Fri Jun 9 01:36:34 2000 Received: from mail1.panix.com (mail1.panix.com [166.84.0.212]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA27341 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 01:38:39 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from tls(a)panix.com) Received: from panix3.panix.com (panix3.panix.com [166.84.0.228]) by mail1.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1548310EA; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 11:36:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tls@localhost) by panix3.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id LAA27539; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 11:36:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 11:36:34 -0400 From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again.... Message-ID: <20000608113634.A26968(a)rek.tjls.com> Reply-To: tls(a)rek.tjls.com References: <0006072246.AA16781(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <0006072246.AA16781(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG on Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 05:46:55PM -0500 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 05:46:55PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > > > Oh, yes. My VS4000m60 needs only 36 hours to go through a "make build". > > This is pure luxury.=20 > > And 4.3BSD-Quasijarus completes its make build on my CSRG dev mill, which is a > KA655 (3.8 VUPs, whereas your KA46 is 12 VUPs), in a little under 4 hours. The > GENERIC vmunix kernel is another 30 minutes. My experience with compilers on the VAX leads me to believe that the substantial "savings" seen over NetBSD or post-4.3 BSD distributions here is almost entirely due to the compiler and options used. If Quasijarus builds like CSRG 4.3 did, with pcc, it can't even use the optimizer *at all* for the kernel build, due to severe bugs; either way, pcc runs a lot faster than gcc though it generates code that runs a whole lot slower. I'd be willing to bet that gcc -O0 would build NetBSD at least ten times as fast as gcc -O2; the VAX is (as we all know ;-)) a "rather complex" processor, with "rather complex" instruction patterns, gcc is not the swiftest of compilers in the first place, and it does a *lot* of work. Slow machines *are* good for demonstrating how good your compiler is; I recall that rebuilding "compress" with gcc on my 750, way back when, pretty much doubled the amount of Usenet news I could handle in a day. :-) Thor Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA27554 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 01:57:10 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

Re: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again....

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > Oh, yes. My VS4000m60 needs only 36 hours to go through a "make build". > This is pure luxury.=20 And 4.3BSD-Quasijarus completes its make build on my CSRG dev mill, which is a KA655 (3.8 VUPs, whereas your KA46 is 12 VUPs), in a little under 4 hours. The GENERIC vmunix kernel is another 30 minutes. Long live Original UNIX in 4 capitals! Let's reopen the Soviet factories, build new 11/780s with the hammer and sickle on every chip, put the real UNIX on them, and send pee sea-raised revisionists to gulag! -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA23628 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:52:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Eric Fischer <enf(a)pobox.com> Thu Jun 8 08:50:45 2000 Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA23624 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:52:42 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from enf(a)shell-1.enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (enf(a)shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA04229; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:50:45 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from enf(a)shell-1.enteract.com) Received: (from enf@localhost) by shell-1.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA82201; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:50:45 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from enf) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:50:45 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <200006072250.RAA82201(a)shell-1.enteract.com> From: Eric Fischer <enf(a)pobox.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: unix precursors In-Reply-To: <m21z29f90d.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain> References: <m21z29f90d.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > Thompson mentions that unix borrows heavily from CTSS. I think that > Corbato wrote a book on this system, but that book seems nearly as > rare as chicken teeth. I think he also wrote an earlier journal > article on the system, which I imagine shouldn't be hard to locate. The journal article you're thinking of is probably "An Experimental Time Sharing System" by Corbato, Merwin-Daggett, and Daley, which describes an early version of the system (where command arguments were still separated by vertical bars instead of spaces). AFIPS Conference Proceedings vol. 21, 1962. The book is _The Compatible Time-Sharing System: A User's Guide_, which was published in two editions in, I think, 1963 and 1965, by MIT Press. Both editions are in enough libraries you should be able to get them by interlibrary loan. The first edition is more booklike, the second is more like a collection of man pages. The Charles Babbage Institute has copies of some of the on-line updates to the manual (on paper) from after the second edition was published. You will see many similarities to Unix. The arguments to tar, for instance, come straight from the CTSS "ARCHIV" command. > Finally, Thompson also mentions that fork() basically existed in its > current form in the Berkeley Timesharing System. That is the one and > only thing I have ever heard about this system. Anyone know where I > can learn more? You can find out some things about it from Butler Lampson's "A User Machine in a Time-Sharing System," at http://www.research.microsoft.com/lampson/02-UserMachine/Abstract.html Dennis Ritchie cites a real manual for the system in the references for http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/hist.html but I haven't been able to locate a copy, even in the library at the University of California, Berkeley. I've read somewhere that the system is supposed to be similar to the PDP-1 time sharing system developed at MIT, but the only documentation I've located on that is Mario Bonghi's master's thesis, which seems to have been written before the hardware was even upgraded to be able to run the software it describes. eric Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA23737 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:37:35 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Paul West <pdub(a)accesscom.com> Thu Jun 8 09:36:42 2000 Received: from ns2.accesscom.com (root(a)ns2.accesscom.com [64.240.196.3]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA23733 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:37:26 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from pdub(a)accesscom.com) Received: from accesscom.com (ppp85.dialup.accesscom.com [64.240.200.85]) by ns2.accesscom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id QAA06080; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 16:35:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ns2.accesscom.com: Host ppp85.dialup.accesscom.com [64.240.200.85] claimed to be accesscom.com Message-ID: <393EDC8A.237C8423(a)accesscom.com> Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 16:36:42 -0700 From: Paul West <pdub(a)accesscom.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "A. P. Garcia" <apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org> CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: unix precursors References: <m21z29f90d.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk "A. P. Garcia" wrote: > does anyone know where I can learn more about other precursors to > unix? On CTSS: F. J. Corbato et al. "An Experimental Time-Sharing System" Proceedings of the AFIPS, SJCC 1962, vol 21, pp 335-344. P. A. Crisman The Compatible Time-Sharing System: A Programmer's Guide, 2nd ed. MIT Press, 1965. On the Berkeley Timesharing System: W.W. Lichtenberger and M. W. Pirtle "A Facility for Experimentation in Man-Machine Interaction" Proceedings of the AFIPS, FJCC 1965, vol 27, pp 185-196. B. W. Lampson, W.W. Lichtenberger and M. W. Pirtle "A User Machine in a Time-Sharing System" Proceedings of the IEEE, vol 54 no 12 (Dec. 1966), pp 1766-1774. This last paper is reprinted in Chapter 24 of: C. Gordon Bell and Allen Newell Computer Structures: Readings and Examples Mc-Graw Hill, 1971 and this *entire* book is online at "http://www.research.microsoft.com/~gbell/Computer_Structures__Readings_and_…" (the URL needs to be all on one line to cut and paste into your browser). Happy reading :) Paul Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA24483 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 12:28:39 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Paul West <pdub(a)accesscom.com> Thu Jun 8 12:27:45 2000 Received: from ns2.accesscom.com (root(a)ns2.accesscom.com [64.240.196.3]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA24479 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 12:28:34 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from pdub(a)accesscom.com) Received: from accesscom.com (ppp85.dialup.accesscom.com [64.240.200.85]) by ns2.accesscom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id TAA17681; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 19:26:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ns2.accesscom.com: Host ppp85.dialup.accesscom.com [64.240.200.85] claimed to be accesscom.com Message-ID: <393F04A1.2A71E151(a)accesscom.com> Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 19:27:45 -0700 From: Paul West <pdub(a)accesscom.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Fischer <enf(a)pobox.com> CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: unix precursors References: <m21z29f90d.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain> <200006072250.RAA82201(a)shell-1.enteract.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Eric Fischer wrote: > > I've read somewhere that > the system is supposed to be similar to the PDP-1 time sharing > system developed at MIT, but the only documentation I've located > on that is Mario Bonghi's master's thesis, which seems to have been > written before the hardware was even upgraded to be able to run > the software it describes. The book "Computer Engineering" by Bell, Mudge and McNamara gives another reference for the MIT PDP-1 timesharing system: J.B. Dennis, "A Multiuser Computation Facility for Education and Research" Comm. ACM, vol. 7 no. 9 (Sept. 1964), pp 521-529. BTW, there apparently were two different timesharing systems developed for the PDP-1, the second one coming from Bolt, Beranek, and Newman (BBN). "Computer Engineering" gives this reference for the BBN system: J. McCarthy, S. Boilen, E. Fredkin, and J.C.R. Lieklider "A Timesharing Debugging System for a Small Computer" AFIPS Conference Proceedings, SJCC 1963, vol 23, pp 51-57. Yes, that is John McCarthy of LISP fame. Paul Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA25136 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 14:59:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu Jun 8 14:45:32 2000 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA25132 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 14:59:36 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA25310; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 21:45:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 21:45:32 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200006080445.VAA25310(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: jasomill(a)shaffstall.com, sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com> > > Wow, quite a bit of interest in 2.11 these days - I suppose I should > It's the first PDP operating system I've enjoyed working with, and one of > the coolest UNIX implementations I've had the pleasure of working with. Ah, thanks! I can't claim _all_ the credit but 2.10.1 was more or less directly my "fault" and 2.11 was all set to be called 2.11SMS until one of the CSRG folks intervened and gave me the BSD imprimateur. > I unearthed two Teac 55-G series floppy drives, and they're both broken > (won't format w/verify) -- the RX50 isn't the only flakey floppy. I've got Sigh. Anyhow, to the problem you observed dd'ing data to an RX50 and the ensuing compare error. I'm using an RX33 (well, mod'd Teac 5.25" drive) on a RQDX3. I freshly formatted a floppy. That's one nice thing about the RX33, the RQDX3 can format floppies using ZRQF?? - RX50's meant getting preformat'd media or a Rainbow to do the formatting from what I remember. Then before doing anything I enabled a bit of extended logging from the MSCP driver with sysctl -w machdep.mscp.printf=9 The first access to the drive ("disklabel ra9") elicited a "ra9a=entire disk: no disk label" message. This is expected and correct - the kernel saw there was a corrupt/missing label and came up with a label that spanned the 2400 sectors of the drive using the 'a' partition. Next a 1.2mb file (sector 0 having zeroes, sector 1 having ones, etc) was dd'd: dd if=/tmp/data of=/dev/rra9a and almost immediately dd reported: write: Read-only file system 2+0 records in 2+0 records out That probably should have been 2+0 and 1+0 since dd read two sectors but only successfully wrote one. A bug in 'dd' perhaps that it doesn't decrement the output count on a write error. At any rate you should error out if the label area is not write enabled. The 'disklabel' program automatically enables and disables the writeprotect when writing the label in case you were wondering about that ;) After doing the "disklabel -W ra9" the "dd" works fine and the floppy compares identical to the input file. The MSCP driver hasn't changed in quite a while so if you retrieved 2.11 fairly recently the problem's not a bug in ra.c that I can see (or if it is, it's particular to the RX50 somehow). Why 'ra9' (I hear you ask)? Well, the system is currently booted from a different controller (Emulex UC08). The boot controller is *always* 'ra0 thru ra7' no matter what the CSR is. The secondary controller (the RQDX3 in this case) is always 'ra8 thru ra15'. The RD54 is 'ra8' (first drive on the 2nd controller) and the RX33 is ra9 (second drive on the second controller). > > Oh, for debugging purposes you can enable more or all of the MSCP > > messages with the 'sysctl' command: > > > > sysctl -w machdep.mscp.printf=X > > I will. Thanks. I didn't even know 2.11 had 'sysctl'. Cool. One more thing I stuffed into the system. You'll also find "sigaction" and friends along with RTS/CTS flowcontrol (for devices which support it), and numerous other goodies imported from 4.4BSD (the latest addition was 'pselect(2)' just a couple months ago). Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA25267 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 15:43:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Thu Jun 8 15:41:44 2000 Received: from junk.nocrew.org (mail(a)[212.73.17.42]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25263 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 15:43:43 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from lars(a)junk.nocrew.org) Received: from lars by junk.nocrew.org with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au id 12zv4a-0003Tr-00; Thu, 08 Jun 2000 07:41:44 +0200 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: unix precursors References: <m21z29f90d.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain> From: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Date: 08 Jun 2000 07:41:44 +0200 In-Reply-To: "A. P. Garcia"'s message of "07 Jun 2000 21:58:58 +0000" Message-ID: <85snuoenl3.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk "A. P. Garcia" <apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org> writes: > I know that www.multicians.org is a nice web site devoted to Multics, > but does anyone know where I can learn more about other precursors to > unix? How about ITS, did it influence Unix? Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA25534 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 17:15:14 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Thu Jun 8 17:13:02 2000 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.uu.se [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA25530 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 17:15:08 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from bqt(a)Update.UU.SE) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA15445; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:13:03 +0200 Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:13:02 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: Roger Ivie <rivie(a)teraglobal.com> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: RQDX3 software interleave In-Reply-To: <v04210100b564661bc3fe(a)[10.10.50.26]> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000608090825.9260D-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Roger Ivie wrote: > > Speaking of PITA > >device control, wasn't it the DEC RX02 that wrote address information in > >single density and data in DD? > > Yes, it was. But it was usually done by the hardware (I suppose that > would be microcode in the case of the RX02), so unless you wanted to > do something foolish like read RX02 diskettes in your DD CP/M machine > or format floppies you don't have to worry about it. And in those cases, you loose as well. The RX02 uses a micro-engine to control the drive. No chip controller can switch density in the middle of the track, so RX02 floppies will forever be in the domain of RX02 drives only. Note that formatting RX02 floppes is no problem, since you format them in single density. The RX02 sets a bit in the header if the data is DD, and this is controllable from all DEC OSes that I know of. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA26778 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 23:04:30 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

Re: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > Ahhh! Why is there no note in the distribution directory? OK, I'll add one. > Ehhh? And where to get the code? Why is there no hint to it on the web > page? Distributions/4bsd/components/compress.tar ??? Yes. > The Web-Page says: "The strong compression code is available as a > separate package in the BSD distribution archive (it is itself > uncompressed)." Hmm, I thought this was enough info for folks to figure out that components/compress.tar is the right tarball... > But the Distributions/4bsd/4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a directory > does not contain it. It's in the components directory, as opposed to the tape distribution directory for any particular release, because it's a grabbed-out BSD component that can be used with any release. The tape distribution directories have exactly what goes on the tape in the format it goes there, nothing more, nothing less. > > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus is more original CSRG than 4.3BSD-Reno. Reno doesn't follow > > the True UNIX line of V1 thru V7 thru 4.3BSD, Quasijarus does. > [...] > Is there some documentation available about this? I have something along these lines on the front page of the Quasijarus project. But sure, I should elaborate. I will when I respond to Warren's PUPS/TUHS reorg thing, which I'm still procrastinating on. :-) -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA16405 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 04:39:39 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Peter Zhivkov <pzh(a)bia-bg.com> Wed Jun 7 03:36:05 2000 Received: from mmail.bia-bg.com (qmailr(a)mmail.bia-bg.com [212.116.129.29]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA16400 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 04:39:28 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from pzh(a)bia-bg.com) Received: (qmail 16852 invoked by uid 0); 6 Jun 2000 17:36:05 -0000 Received: from mmail.bia-bg.com (pzh(a)212.116.129.29) by mmail.bia-bg.com with SMTP; 6 Jun 2000 17:36:05 -0000 Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 20:36:05 +0300 (EET DST) From: Peter Zhivkov <pzh(a)bia-bg.com> To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II In-Reply-To: <0006061447.AA13729(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.1000606203205.16815A-100000(a)mmail.bia-bg.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, 6 Jun 2000, Michael Sokolov wrote: > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus is more original CSRG than 4.3BSD-Reno. Reno doesn't follow > the True UNIX line of V1 thru V7 thru 4.3BSD, Quasijarus does. Reno breaks all > traditional CSRG ideology and is not CSRG in any way other than having been > built in Evans Hall. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus hasn't been built in Evans Hall, but is > CSRG in every other way. > people, please administer proper dosage...and do not let patients out of the boundaries of the asylum... > -- > Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory > Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force > International Engineering and Science Task Force > 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 > DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA > > Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) > E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) > > P.S. please take me off the quasijarus list Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA16600 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 05:10:46 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com> Wed Jun 7 05:06:40 2000 Received: from guildenstern.shaffstall.com (cisdn-2.on-net.net [206.229.84.2]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA16596 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 05:10:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jasomill(a)shaffstall.com) Received: from localhost (jasomill@localhost) by guildenstern.shaffstall.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA05700 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:06:40 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: guildenstern.shaffstall.com: jasomill owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:06:40 -0500 (EST) From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD In-Reply-To: <200005261407.AAA44464(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006061323100.5676-100000(a)guildenstern.shaffstall.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Does anyone have experience using the RX50 floppy drive under 2.11BSD? I patched my FreeBSD kernel to handle RX50-format (80 cyl / 1 hd / 10 sec) diskettes, and noticed what seemed to be some sort of logical sector interleave (I also have hardware that does physical diskette reads / dumps, which assured me that I was getting the physical data off the disk in the order prescribed by the sector ID address marks); so, back to the old '11 for another round of test-disk making. My test data was simple enough: 512 bytes of 16-bit unsigned integer one, followed by 512 bytes of UINT16 2, usw. to UINT16 800; the easier to figure out the interleave, my precious... But I didna even get that far: observe (testrx50.img is 409,600 bytes): $ dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/ra12a 800+0 records in 800+0 records out $ dd if=/dev/ra12a of=test 800+0 records in 800+0 records out $ diff testrx50.img test Binary files testrx50.img and test differ WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it? In my late-night screwings-around, I recall the following Additional Facts: - Disks formatted with my PC floppy drive (using my kernel hacks - available on request [although until I get them working, no guarantees in re: their applicability to this or any other use; although I will attest that they won't make your kernel crash, at least not in 4.0-STABLE]) usually work okay, but sometimes give hard errors. - Disks formatted with the aforementioned Custom Hardware (a Shaffstall 6000 media conversion system, for the curious) for a) DEC Rainbow, b) RT-11, and c) DECmate II, seem to work flawlessly, at the physical level, but exhibit the below-mentioned quirks, logically. I'll note at this point that the media I'm using is 3M DS/DD 96tpi (_not_ high density), and disks formatted with the 6000 (RT-11) worked perfectly under RSX-11. Also: - The '11/2.11BSD never seem to write the first two sectors, although no error is returned to this effect; in fact, the data in sector three is from offset 1024 in the input data (0x0003 in the above example). Is this due to disk label support or something? The raw (character) device reports itself as read-only, even for root. - The remaining data sometimes (but not always; the specific circumstances involved I have not yet figured out conclusively -- physical interleave, preexisting data (!), or, something else?) carries an interleave, though I admit I haven't figured it out yet (meaning I haven't sat down and done it, not that I don't know how). Finally, I noticed there is no floppy-specific code in the MSCP driver, so all the gory details of floppy control (along with the gory details of the above) must be dealt with by the RQDX3. Anybody got documentation for this little slice 'o heaven? And, er, _really_ finally, is it really true that I can put any HD AT drive (well, any one that sports DS jumpers) on the RQDX3 and it'll function as an RX33? Does this void my field service contract, as my field service engineer is growing bored with staying up all night trying to understand funky DEC floppy hardware, as Parts currently has Guinness on a 180-day lead and it is a neccessary part of such an operation? Wonder what DEC would think of allowing (providing?) old PDP hardware docs for the archive? JasoMill

24 years, 11 months

Re: Hardware info in Unix Archive

by rdkeys＠unity.ncsu.edu

> We need more affiliated groups! Bob, you want to lead an IBM group? > David, how about an encumbered BSD group? Minnie will provide web space, > archive area, mail list as required. What sort of interest do we have in doing something like this? IF the interest was there, I could probably make some time to chair an IBM RT related group. So far it seems about half a dozen folks were interested in the RT things. Let's see where it goes..... Bob Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA23361 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:05:58 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "A. P. Garcia" <apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org> Thu Jun 8 07:58:58 2000 Received: from hackaholic.org (IDENT:qmailr@d130.as6.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net [169.207.130.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA23356 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:05:53 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org) Received: (qmail 395 invoked by uid 501); 7 Jun 2000 21:58:58 -0000 From: "A. P. Garcia" <apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: unix precursors Date: 07 Jun 2000 21:58:58 +0000 Message-ID: <m21z29f90d.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0804 (Gnus v5.8.4) Emacs/20.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk I know that www.multicians.org is a nice web site devoted to Multics, but does anyone know where I can learn more about other precursors to unix? Thompson mentions that unix borrows heavily from CTSS. I think that Corbato wrote a book on this system, but that book seems nearly as rare as chicken teeth. I think he also wrote an earlier journal article on the system, which I imagine shouldn't be hard to locate. Finally, Thompson also mentions that fork() basically existed in its current form in the Berkeley Timesharing System. That is the one and only thing I have ever heard about this system. Anyone know where I can learn more? Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA23424 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:16:53 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Cyrille Lefevre <root(a)gits.dyndns.org> Thu Jun 8 08:14:46 2000 Received: from racine.cybercable.fr (racine.cybercable.fr [212.198.0.201]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA23420 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:16:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from root(a)gits.dyndns.org) Received: (qmail 3677127 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2000 22:14:49 -0000 Received: from r226m12.cybercable.tm.fr (HELO gits.dyndns.org) ([195.132.226.12]) (envelope-sender <root(a)gits.dyndns.org>) by racine.cybercable.fr (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; 7 Jun 2000 22:14:49 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by gits.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA04762; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 00:14:47 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from root) From: Cyrille Lefevre <root(a)gits.dyndns.org> Posted-Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 00:14:47 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200006072214.AAA04762(a)gits.dyndns.org> Subject: Re: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II In-Reply-To: <200006060836.KAA24484(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> "from jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de at Jun 6, 2000 10:36:49 am" To: jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 00:14:46 +0200 (CEST) CC: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Reply-To: clefevre(a)citeweb.net Organization: ACME X-Face: V|+c;4!|B?E%BE^{E6);aI.[<<r#uCVjK"~Ke!(a)0vxS/.,wki/c|uVnNV!BA-_gY2sfoGc3 f{#/$PT>97Zd*>^#%Y5Cxv;%Y[PT-LW3;A:fRrJ8+^k"e7@+30g0YD0*^^3jgyShN7o?a]C la*Zv'5NA,=963bM%J^o]C X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > On 6 Jun, Michael Sokolov wrote: > > > 4.3BSD-Reno is spoiled and bloated, > This is what I was waiting for. ;-) > > > and won't fit on an RD53. > I have a Dilog DQ686 MCSP ESDI controler with three 320MB disks hany... > And a QD33 with two 9" 940MB SMD disks. But these disks are nor very > hany. ;-) > > > The true 4.3BSD however, 4.3BSD-Quasijarus, will. > Hmm. > > [jkunz@MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ file stand.Z > stand.Z: data > [jkunz@MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ uncompress -c stand.Z > /bigtmp/tmp/stand > uncompress: stand.Z: Inappropriate file type or format > > The same for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0. This is my local PUPS / TUHS archive > mirror, rsynced last week. MissSophie is a i386 box with NetBSD 1.4.2. you have to use the "Quasijarus" compress which is, in the pups archive, Distributions/4bsd/components/compress.tar. > > Go to > > > > http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ > > Been there, sounds good, but see above... An other reason was: I wanted > to install some "original" CSRG stuff. So I took 4.3BSD-Reno. The > version in the archive is complete and supports my CPU/disk/tape. Cyrille. -- home: mailto:clefevre@citeweb.net work: mailto:Cyrille.Lefevre@edf.fr Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA23490 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:23:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

Re: RQDX3 software interleave

by Jason T. Miller

> Yes, the RQDX3 is supposed to do this for you so you don't have to deal > with it, ... I guess I should have sat down and thought about it, I never even considered the hardware doing software interleave (quite a dumb thing to do, IMHO, unless you want to sell preformatted diskettes for use in systems with widely varying performance characteristics; who would want to do that :). Thanks, Herr Ivie, for that insight. Also thanks to SMS for the disklabel enlightenment. I should have a workable solution soon, though doing the interleave code in 4.4BSD kernelland doesn't seem like much fun and would reduce the general applicability of the driver (I'd like to see what the FreeBSD committers would think when I suggest _that_!); I think I'll just write an "interleave filter" in userland and leave it at that. > What sort of info are you looking for? Floppy drivers are a PITA to write > and you should be happy the RQDX3 is hiding it from you. Don't get me wrong, I _am_ happy. I like smart hardware as long as it doesn't try to second-guess me; I'm a big fan of SCSI. Just a natural and (usually, but not always) healty curiousity. And I know how much fun floppy drivers are to write; one of the products developed by my employer (though before I was thus employed) was a disk conversion system. And we even used one of the more "intelligent" floppy controllers, an experimental TI 9909 that handled "pretty much everything" for you (as long as "pretty much everything" involved writing single-density IBM 8" diskettes -- reminds me of the line in Raising Arizona, when N. Cage asks the cashier if he has balloons in funny shapes and he replies: "if you think a circle is a funny shape"). So I have the source code to a floppy driver that handles almost any disk type imaginable (as long as the data rate isn't too high: 2.88MB disks zum beispiel), all written in assembler and PLM for an 8085; talk about tight code. Speaking of PITA device control, wasn't it the DEC RX02 that wrote address information in single density and data in DD? Once again, thanks for everyone for all the help. I'll have this thing working soon. -jtm Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA23073 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 06:56:27 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Roger Ivie <rivie(a)teraglobal.com> Thu Jun 8 06:54:01 2000 Received: from ns1.teraglobal.com (ns1.teraglobal.com [63.210.171.3]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA23069 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 06:56:24 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from rivie(a)teraglobal.com) Received: from [10.10.50.26] (208.186.13.23) by ns1.teraglobal.com with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2.2); Wed, 7 Jun 2000 13:54:07 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rivie(a)ns1.teraglobal.com Message-Id: <v04210100b564661bc3fe(a)[10.10.50.26]> In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006071443590.6772-100000(a)guildenstern.shaffstall.com> References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006071443590.6772-100000(a)guildenstern.shaffstall.com> Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 14:54:01 -0600 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au From: Roger Ivie <rivie(a)teraglobal.com> Subject: Re: RQDX3 software interleave Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > Speaking of PITA >device control, wasn't it the DEC RX02 that wrote address information in >single density and data in DD? Yes, it was. But it was usually done by the hardware (I suppose that would be microcode in the case of the RX02), so unless you wanted to do something foolish like read RX02 diskettes in your DD CP/M machine or format floppies you don't have to worry about it. -- Roger Ivie rivie(a)teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA23245 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 07:38:22 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

Re: RT confusedness....

by rdkeys＠unity.ncsu.edu

> ; In standard RT-PC mode, a 2:1 interleave is used on a single track and > ; a 2 sector skew is used across tracks. > > ("RT-PC" means "RT-11 on a DEC Professional", roughly!) Gee, let's not forget the old IBM RT-PC dinosaur.....(:+}}... It was an entirely different beastie by the same name, that I am sure a few of us have played with over the years. It's a prime candidate for the UHS style fodder, if there were any interest in the thing besides with me. Anyone else aboard play with that dinosaur critter? ...... > Terry Kennedy's THIRD-PARTY-DISKS.TXT, available via anonymous FTP > from > > ftp://ftp.spc.edu/third-party-disks.txt > > Since this subject comes up several times a year, would it be possible > to link to the above document from somewhere in the PUPS archive, Warren? Yes, I would like to see Warren mirror such things, as space and utility dictate. Sometimes some redundancy in these forgotten lores is good. I am sure there are other such docs and texts of wisdom that collectively we should centralize in the archives, space, copyrights, permissions, etc., to be worked out in some way. At least, link to the urls, as long as the urls don't break. Bob Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA17435 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 07:59:37 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

Re: VAX group in TUHS?

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> wrote: > At present, Michael Sokolov looks after the 4BSD VAX section of the > archive under the aegis of the Quasijarus project. Yes. > Michael, do you want to continue to do this? Yes. > Or should we separate the historical 4BSDs for > someone to curate while you manage the ongoing Quasijarus work? No, I do not and will not separate these. Warren, can we talk about all this sometime later, leaving the affected areas intact for now? I'm *really* swamped right now. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA19425 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 16:11:25 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Wed Jun 7 16:09:07 2000 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA19421 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 16:11:19 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from bqt(a)Update.UU.SE) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA24583; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:09:09 +0200 Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:09:07 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006061323100.5676-100000(a)guildenstern.shaffstall.com> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000607080633.9260B-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, 6 Jun 2000, Jason T. Miller wrote: [...floppy stuff on 2.11 deleted...] > $ diff testrx50.img test > Binary files testrx50.img and test differ > > WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it? Well... No... But... You later note that 2.11 don't write the first two sectors, even though it don't give you any errors. So, I'm not surprised by the result. the first 1K are probably very different. Try to compare everything after that 1K and see if that is the same. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA21593 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 01:39:19 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD

by Wilko Bulte

On Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 02:06:40PM -0500, Jason T. Miller wrote: > Wonder what DEC would think of allowing (providing?) old PDP hardware docs > for the archive? I'm afraid you'd have to ask Mentec. -- Wilko Bulte FreeBSD, the power to serve http://www.freebsd.org http://www.nlfug.nl Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA16881 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 05:40:28 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Wed Jun 7 05:38:29 2000 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA16877 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 05:40:23 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from SHOPPA(a)timaxp.trailing-edge.com) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:38:29 -0400 Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:38:29 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU Message-Id: <000606153829.20200e60(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >Does anyone have experience using the RX50 floppy drive under 2.11BSD? Yeah, sure. > I >patched my FreeBSD kernel to handle RX50-format (80 cyl / 1 hd / 10 sec) >diskettes, and noticed what seemed to be some sort of logical sector >interleave (I also have hardware that does physical diskette reads / <dumps, which assured me that I was getting the physical data off the disk >in the order prescribed by the sector ID address marks); so, back to the >old '11 for another round of test-disk making. My test data was simple >enough: 512 bytes of 16-bit unsigned integer one, followed by 512 bytes of >UINT16 2, usw. to UINT16 800; the easier to figure out the interleave, my >precious... But I didna even get that far: observe (testrx50.img is >409,600 bytes): > > $ dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/ra12a > 800+0 records in > 800+0 records out > $ dd if=/dev/ra12a of=test > 800+0 records in > 800+0 records out > $ diff testrx50.img test > Binary files testrx50.img and test differ > >WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it? No, it shouldn't, but I'm confused as to where you're doing this at. Is this on FreeBSD? >Also: > - The '11/2.11BSD never seem to write the first two sectors, although >no error is returned to this effect; in fact, the data in sector three is >from offset 1024 in the input data (0x0003 in the above example). Is this >due to disk label support or something? The raw (character) device reports >itself as read-only, even for root. This must have something to do with the 2.11BSD disk label. The raw character device should be writable, can you try rm'ing the appropriate entries and remaking them with /dev/MAKEDEV? Also note that you may have to issue a disklabel command to make it possible for you to clobber the sectors where the disk label would otherwise live. > - The remaining data sometimes (but not always; the specific >circumstances involved I have not yet figured out conclusively -- physical >interleave, preexisting data (!), or, something else?) carries an >interleave, though I admit I haven't figured it out yet (meaning I haven't >sat down and done it, not that I don't know how). Yes, there is a physical<->logical block interleave on the RX50. See, for example, John Wilson's PUTR source code ( at ftp://ftp.dbit.com/pub/ibmpc/putr/ - assuming that ftp.dbit.com is back up by now!) for details and example code. >Finally, I noticed there is no floppy-specific code in the MSCP driver, so >all the gory details of floppy control (along with the gory details of the >above) must be dealt with by the RQDX3. That's true, the RQDX3 takes care of all that. If you look at any DEC Professional RX50 driver source code, you'll see the interleave code in there. For example, from RT-11's DZ.MAC sources: ; ; In standard RT-PC mode, a 2:1 interleave is used on a single track and ; a 2 sector skew is used across tracks. ("RT-PC" means "RT-11 on a DEC Professional", roughly!) and later, in a breathtaking example of tight driver interleave code (really, study it very closely, this is good stuff!): ; Normal I/O, convert block number to track and sector number and interleave ; ASL R2 ;Make word count unsigned byte count MOV (PC)+,R4 ;Loop count for 8 bit division .BYTE -7.,-10. ;Count becomes 0, -10 in high byte for later 50$: CMP #1280.,R5 ;Does 10 go into dividend (10.*200)? BHI 60$ ;Branch if not, C-bit clear ADD #-1280.,R5 ;Subtract 10 from dividend, and set C-bit ;(10.*200) 60$: ROL R5 ;Shift dividend and quotient INCB R4 ;Decrement loop count BLE 50$ ;Branch until divide done MOVB R5,R1 ;Copy track number 0:79, zero extend ADD R4,R5 ;Make sector < 0 MOV R1,R4 ;Copy track number ASL R1 ;Multiply by 2 (skew) 70$: SUB #10.,R1 ;Reduce track number * 2 MOD 10 BGT 70$ ; to find offset for this track, -10:0 MOV R1,TRKOFF ;Save it BR 100$ ;Go save parameters and start >And, er, _really_ finally, is it really true that I can put any HD AT >drive (well, any one that sports DS jumpers) on the RQDX3 and it'll >function as an RX33? Does this void my field service contract, as my field >service engineer is growing bored with staying up all night trying to >understand funky DEC floppy hardware, as Parts currently has Guinness on >a 180-day lead and it is a neccessary part of such an operation? The DEC RX33 floppy drive *is* a TEAC FD55GFR, also commonly found on PC-clones. Not just *any* HD AT floppy drive will work. Not only does it need to support the drive select jumpers, it also needs a bit more jumper configurability. The exact jumper settings vary depending on which exact FD55 model and revision you're using. As of a few months ago many of the jumper setting legends were decoded on the spec sheets you could get from TEAC's faxback service. The standard reference on this subject for the past decade has been Terry Kennedy's THIRD-PARTY-DISKS.TXT, available via anonymous FTP from ftp://ftp.spc.edu/third-party-disks.txt Since this subject comes up several times a year, would it be possible to link to the above document from somewhere in the PUPS archive, Warren? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA16978 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 06:01:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Wed Jun 7 05:59:51 2000 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA16974 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU>; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 06:01:42 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from SHOPPA(a)timaxp.trailing-edge.com) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:59:51 -0400 Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:59:51 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Message-Id: <000606155951.20200e60(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >> Wonder what DEC would think of allowing (providing?) old PDP hardware docs >> for the archive? >I'm afraid you'd have to ask Mentec. No, Mentec doesn't (generally) own the rights to those. Mentec owns the rights to several former DEC OS's, most notably RT-11, RSX-11M, RSX-11M+, and RSTS/E, and many of the corresponding layered products. But they don't even own all the former DEC PDP-11 software; for instance, they don't have XXDP, DOS-11, PAL-11, etc... Of probable interest to many of the readers of this mailing list, Mentec is gearing up to offer a hobbyist license for the RT, RSX-11M, RSX-11M+, and RSTS/E. Note, in particular, that there is a "PDP-11 Hobbyist" link on Mentec's page at http://www.mentec.com/mentecinc/default.asp The link is currently disabled, but I expect it'll be active in the next week or so. Tim. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA17027 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 06:14:35 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Roger Ivie <rivie(a)teraglobal.com> Wed Jun 7 06:12:14 2000 Received: from ns1.teraglobal.com (ns1.teraglobal.com [63.210.171.3]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA17023 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 06:14:32 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from rivie(a)teraglobal.com) Received: from [10.10.50.26] (208.186.13.23) by ns1.teraglobal.com with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2.2); Tue, 6 Jun 2000 13:12:22 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rivie(a)ns1.teraglobal.com Message-Id: <v0421010eb563058aacb7(a)[10.10.50.26]> In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006061323100.5676-100000(a)guildenstern.shaffstall.com> References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006061323100.5676-100000(a)guildenstern.shaffstall.com> Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:12:14 -0600 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au From: Roger Ivie <rivie(a)teraglobal.com> Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >Does anyone have experience using the RX50 floppy drive under 2.11BSD? I >patched my FreeBSD kernel to handle RX50-format (80 cyl / 1 hd / 10 sec) >diskettes, and noticed what seemed to be some sort of logical sector >interleave (I also have hardware that does physical diskette reads / >dumps, which assured me that I was getting the physical data off the disk >in the order prescribed by the sector ID address marks); Yes, there is a software interleave on RX50 diskettes. It also varies from system to system; I'm pretty certain PDP-11s and VAXes use the same software interleave (otherwise you couldn't exchange diskettes between a Pro350 and a MicroVAX II), but the DECmate II and III use a different software interleave. I have a memo here somewhere; it's getting a bit faded, perhaps I should do an underground HTML translation of it... Ah yes, here it is: DEC format supported by RQDX controller (this is 1984, so the only RQDX controller is RQDX1 at the time) used by Pro300, Micro-PDPs, MicroVAX I: - 10 sectors per track - 2 for 1 interleaving with 3 to 1 intercylinder skew - Physical track # = (LBN/10) + 1 with wraparound to track 0 [IOW, logical track 0 is physical track 1 and physical track 0 is logical track 79] - Physical sector # = X ( m ) where m = LBN mod 50, n = m/10, c = m mod 10: |c=0|c=1|c=2|c=3|c=4|c=5|c=6|c=7|c=8|c=9| ---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ n=0| 01| 03| 05| 07| 09| 02| 04| 06| 08| 10| ---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ n=1| 03| 05| 07| 09| 01| 04| 06| 08| 10| 02| ---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ n=2| 05| 07| 09| 01| 03| 06| 08| 10| 02| 04| ---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ n=3| 07| 09| 01| 03| 05| 08| 10| 02| 04| 06| ---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ n=4| 09| 01| 03| 05| 07| 10| 02| 04| 06| 08| ---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ DECmates and Rainbows don't use an intercylinder skew. Rainbows have the whacky logical track wrapping while DECmates don't. Yes, the RQDX3 is supposed to do this for you so you don't have to deal with it, unless you're foolishly trying to read DECmate or Rainbow disks on an RQDX3, at which point you need to carefully figure out how the lack of intercylinder skew on the DECmates interacts with the cylinder skew on the RQDX3. I know the RQDX3 implements the soft interleave because I did the firmware for Digital's SCSI floppy controller. I maintained that the device driver should deal with the interleave because it varies from format to format and the SCSI controller can't tell whether a particular RX50 is a DECmate RX50 or a VAX RX50. VMS didn't want to deal with the soft interleave because they don't have to on the RQDX3. I lost the fight and had to go back into the SCSI controller and rev the firmware to deal with the soft interleave. > $ dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/ra12a > 800+0 records in > 800+0 records out > $ dd if=/dev/ra12a of=test > 800+0 records in > 800+0 records out > $ diff testrx50.img test > Binary files testrx50.img and test differ > >WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it? No, it shouldn't, at least AFAIK. > In my late-night screwings-around, >I recall the following Additional Facts: > - Disks formatted with my PC floppy drive (using my kernel hacks - >available on request [although until I get them working, no guarantees in >re: their applicability to this or any other use; although I will attest >that they won't make your kernel crash, at least not in 4.0-STABLE]) >usually work okay, but sometimes give hard errors. This shouldn't be a problem. There are some potential difficulties involving the gap lengths; IIRC it's possible to format floppies that work on a PC but don't work with the HDC 9224 used on the RQDX3 because the 9224 requires a little bit more time to clean itself up in one of the gaps. Unfortunately, I don't recall the details; this was all a long time ago. I think it involves the gap between the header and data fields of a sector, but don't hold me to that. >I'll note at this point that the media I'm using is 3M DS/DD 96tpi (_not_ >high density), and disks formatted with the 6000 (RT-11) worked perfectly >under RSX-11. That's good. You should not be using high-density disks. >Finally, I noticed there is no floppy-specific code in the MSCP driver, so >all the gory details of floppy control (along with the gory details of the >above) must be dealt with by the RQDX3. Anybody got documentation for this >little slice 'o heaven? What sort of info are you looking for? Floppy drivers are a PITA to write and you should be happy the RQDX3 is hiding it from you. >And, er, _really_ finally, is it really true that I can put any HD AT >drive (well, any one that sports DS jumpers) on the RQDX3 and it'll >function as an RX33? The DEC drive changes speed based on the head write current signal of the interface. AT drives don't change speed; the data separator on an AT controller runs at 300KHz for low-density instead of 250KHz to deal with that little slice o' heaven. If you stick any HD AT drive on an RQDX3, you may be able to read high-density disks, but you probably will not be able to read low-density disks (i.e., RX50s). Oh yeah. Since the DEC drives change speed, that means there's an extra little slice o' heaven in the floppy support code to wait for the drive to change speed when the density changes. Are you _sure_ you want documentation for that little slice o' heaven? -- Roger Ivie rivie(a)teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA17070 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 06:22:55 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

Re: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > [jkunz@MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ file stand.Z=20 > stand.Z: data > [jkunz@MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ uncompress -c stand.Z > /bigtmp/t= > mp/stand > uncompress: stand.Z: Inappropriate file type or format See http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/compress.html > An other reason was: I wanted > to install some "original" CSRG stuff. So I took 4.3BSD-Reno. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus is more original CSRG than 4.3BSD-Reno. Reno doesn't follow the True UNIX line of V1 thru V7 thru 4.3BSD, Quasijarus does. Reno breaks all traditional CSRG ideology and is not CSRG in any way other than having been built in Evans Hall. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus hasn't been built in Evans Hall, but is CSRG in every other way. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA15719 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 02:19:28 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

Re: profesional 350 & 380

by allisonp＠world.std.com

> I have an incomplete set of Pro/Venix. A couple of > the floppies are bad. I would like to find a copy > of Pro/Venix that is installable, as it is more > flexible than Venix/Pro. If anyone out there has > any Pro/Venix floppies, I'd be grateful to hear about > it. > I thought this one was up on uu.se site. I got my copy from there years ago. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA15060 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 00:50:13 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

Re: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > Today I tried to install 4.3BSD-Reno on a MicroVAX II. The machine has > 13MB RAM, DHV11, TK50, DELQA, one RD53 with RQDX3 and a Sigma DLV11-J > clone. 4.3BSD-Reno is spoiled and bloated, and won't fit on an RD53. The true 4.3BSD, however, 4.3BSD-Quasijarus, will. Go to http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ to learn about the project and subscribe to its mailing list, then ask any further questions there. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA11891 for pups-liszt; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 11:09:01 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> Tue Jun 6 11:12:19 2000 Received: from mail.rapidsite.net ([209.238.3.57]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA11887 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 11:08:58 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from emu(a)ecubics.com) Received: from 209.238.157.134 (209.238.157.134) by mail08.gte-hosting.net (RS ver 1.0.53) with SMTP id 05418584 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 21:07:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <005b01bfcf54$49da50b0$5d01a8c0@p2350> From: "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> To: <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> References: <200006052246.AAA20067(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Subject: profesional 350 & 380 Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 19:12:19 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Loop-Detect: 1 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi all, Any chance to get a unix running on them ? cheers & thanks, emanuel Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA12552 for pups-liszt; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 13:52:45 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Tue Jun 6 13:50:14 2000 Received: from smtp10.nwnexus.com (smtp10.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.53]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA12548 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 13:52:34 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from djenner(a)halcyon.com) Received: from halcyon.com (jenner.net [206.63.251.66]) by smtp10.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA28397; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 20:50:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <393C74F6.A19267C0(a)halcyon.com> Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 20:50:14 -0700 From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Organization: Northwest Nexus Net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: emanuel stiebler <emu(a)ecubics.com> CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: profesional 350 & 380 References: <200006052246.AAA20067(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <005b01bfcf54$49da50b0$5d01a8c0@p2350> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk There are at least two *NIXes that run on the Pro. There are apparently patches for 2.9BSD available that allow that version to run on the Pro. I don't have any experience with that. There are two versions of Venix that run on the Pro. 1) Venix/Pro came directly from Venturecom. It exists in Version 1 and Version 2. 2) Pro/Venix came from DEC, but was a slight rework of Venix originally from Venturecom. I.e., DEC worked over Venix/Pro and issued a version itself called Pro/Venix. Venix/Pro versions 1 and 2 are available from the archives at ftp.update.uu.se. This means, ostensibly, that Venix/Pro is in the "public domain". Pro/Venix could also be in the public domain, subject to the Ancient Unix License, since it originates from Version 7 and System III from AT&T. Bob Supnick, who was at DEC, once stated he saw no reason why it couldn't be a part of the PUPS archive under the AU License. I have an incomplete set of Pro/Venix. A couple of the floppies are bad. I would like to find a copy of Pro/Venix that is installable, as it is more flexible than Venix/Pro. If anyone out there has any Pro/Venix floppies, I'd be grateful to hear about it. Thanks, Dave emanuel stiebler wrote: > > Hi all, > > Any chance to get a unix running on them ? > > cheers & thanks, > emanuel Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA12967 for pups-liszt; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 16:04:09 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Tue Jun 6 16:01:20 2000 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.uu.se [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA12963 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 16:03:50 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from bqt(a)Update.UU.SE) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA02730; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 08:01:21 +0200 Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 08:01:20 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: emanuel stiebler <emu(a)ecubics.com> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: profesional 350 & 380 In-Reply-To: <005b01bfcf54$49da50b0$5d01a8c0@p2350> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000606080102.2608A-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, emanuel stiebler wrote: > Hi all, > > Any chance to get a unix running on them ? There is Venix. I even think it's free now... Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA13672 for pups-liszt; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 18:40:07 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II

by jkunz＠unixag-kl.fh-kl.de

Hi. Today I tried to install 4.3BSD-Reno on a MicroVAX II. The machine has 13MB RAM, DHV11, TK50, DELQA, one RD53 with RQDX3 and a Sigma DLV11-J clone. I created a boot tape using a netbooted NetBSD 1.4.2 on this machine. I dd-ed "stand", "miniroot" and "rootdump" onto a tape with the blocksizes listed in the file "Rick_Copeland_Note". I also used "maketape" from the 2.11BSD distribution. >>> b mua0 2..1..0.. ?06 HLT INST PC = 00074C1E >>> Every time the same. :-( Do I make a mistake? Is my hardware not supported? Is there a other way to get 4.3BSD-Reno instaled? (Puting a disklabel, ffs and data with NetBSD onto the disk, but how to boot?) ??? -- tschüß, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA11618 for pups-liszt; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 10:17:02 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

Warren's Position on Future of PUPS/TUHS

by Warren Toomey

Hi all, Well I've had a few comments back from people about the future of things on the PUPS & TUHS front. I've sat down & knocked up a short proposal which I'd be happy with. The overarching goal is to give everybody what they want :-) Anyway, send me comments and suggestions, or plain old disagreements! Thanks, Warren A Discussion Paper on The Future of PUPS, TUHS and the Archive ============================================================== Policy ------ The PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society (PUPS) goes back to being a group specifically focussed on the versions of Unix for the PDP-11 platform. The Unix Heritage Society (TUHS) will be an umbrella group to support efforts to preserve or maintain all versions of Unix that are no longer considered to be mainstream. The type of support is outlined below. Mechanism --------- The pups@minnie mailing list will remain an ``all-encompassing'' mailing list for those people who are active in, or interested in, the aims of the Unix Heritage Society. It will be renamed to be tuhs(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au If enough people request it, a PUPS-specific mailing list will be set up. As part of TUHS aim of support, mailing lists on minnie can be set up for those groups who wish to come under the TUHS umbrella. One or more people from each group will be the list maintainer. If the information is not huge, minnie can offer web space for these groups, too. I'm already doing this for the Quasijarus project. The PUPS Archive will be renamed `The Unix Heritage Archive'. The top-level will contain files & information that is generic. There will be sublevels in the form platform/vendor/version. We might need some other categories for multi-platform systems like the 4BSDs. As an example, nearly all of the current archive will move under a PDP-11/ directory. But directories like Applications/ and Lists/ will stay where they are. If possible and where there are volunteers, each section of the archive will be maintained by its own maintainer. Minnie will provide disk space for all sections, so that there is a `one-stop' place to keep things. However, some groups may want to maintain a separate archive & existence. In this case, TUHS will set up pointers to their efforts. Volunteers & Mirrors -------------------- Some of the existing volunteers and archive mirror maintainers may not wish to maintain a copy of the full TUHS archive. That's their perogative. In fact, it might be useful to `name' each section of the full archive. For example, someone might only want to mirror the VAX section. Perhaps this can be called the VAX Unix Archive. I can modify the mechanism of ordering archive copies so that: + specific volunteers can nominate which archive sections they carry + requesters can order specific sections, or all, and find out how big each section is + requests will only be sent to those volunteers who can do them Copyright & License Issues -------------------------- At present, most things in the archive are protected by licenses and/or copyright. This probably isn't going to change soon. The current mechanisms to ensure access by license holders will be preserved. Given the aims of TUHS, I am prepared to keep in the archive anything that is Unix-related for antiquated or non-mainstream systems. We may not be able to release some of this due to license or copyright reasons. In that case, it will be kept hidden away in the archive until it can be released. It won't be mirrored or be available for copying in any way until that time. A Personal Note --------------- I'd like to maintain the PDP-11 archive, and initially do the TUHS stuff (including web pages, mailing lists, top-level of the archive). I'll set up platform-specific (or other-specific) levels as long as there is someone who will volunteer to maintain that area, and any web pages and mailing lists associated with them. It would also be a good idea to have an understudy or two in the wings, just in case I get hit by a bus or something. Conclusion ---------- I'm sure there are other issues (especially implementation ones) that I've missed above, but hopefully you get the general idea of my proposal for future direction of PUPS and TUHS. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA97124 for pups-liszt; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 18:00:42 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk> Sat Jun 3 17:57:30 2000 Received: from anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.89]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA97120 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 18:00:35 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk) Received: from falstaf.demon.co.uk ([158.152.152.109]) by anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 12y8pg-0008iK-0V; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 08:59:01 +0100 Message-ID: <Q8wFPIAqpLO5Ew82(a)ruffnready.co.uk> Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 08:57:30 +0100 To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au Cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> From: Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk> Subject: Re: Warren's Position on Future of PUPS/TUHS References: <200006030158.LAA08504(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In-Reply-To: <200006030158.LAA08504(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 5.00 U <YSkKJATYm0AxAbv6xwlBrCeVCW> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In message <200006030158.LAA08504(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>, Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> writes >Hi all, > Well I've had a few comments back from people about the future of >things on the PUPS & TUHS front. I've sat down & knocked up a short >proposal which I'd be happy with. The overarching goal is to give everybody >what they want :-) Anyway, send me comments and suggestions, or plain old >disagreements! > >Thanks, > Warren > Sounds basically ok to me Robin > > A Discussion Paper on The Future of PUPS, TUHS and the Archive > ============================================================== > >Policy >------ > >The PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society (PUPS) goes back to being a group >specifically focussed on the versions of Unix for the PDP-11 platform. > >The Unix Heritage Society (TUHS) will be an umbrella group to support >efforts to preserve or maintain all versions of Unix that are no longer >considered to be mainstream. The type of support is outlined below. > >Mechanism >--------- > >The pups@minnie mailing list will remain an ``all-encompassing'' mailing >list for those people who are active in, or interested in, the aims of the >Unix Heritage Society. It will be renamed to be tuhs(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au >If enough people request it, a PUPS-specific mailing list will be set up. > >As part of TUHS aim of support, mailing lists on minnie can be set up >for those groups who wish to come under the TUHS umbrella. One or more >people from each group will be the list maintainer. > >If the information is not huge, minnie can offer web space for these >groups, too. I'm already doing this for the Quasijarus project. > >The PUPS Archive will be renamed `The Unix Heritage Archive'. The top-level >will contain files & information that is generic. There will be sublevels >in the form platform/vendor/version. We might need some other categories >for multi-platform systems like the 4BSDs. As an example, nearly all of the >current archive will move under a PDP-11/ directory. But directories like >Applications/ and Lists/ will stay where they are. > >If possible and where there are volunteers, each section of the archive >will be maintained by its own maintainer. Minnie will provide disk space >for all sections, so that there is a `one-stop' place to keep things. >However, some groups may want to maintain a separate archive & existence. >In this case, TUHS will set up pointers to their efforts. > > >Volunteers & Mirrors >-------------------- > >Some of the existing volunteers and archive mirror maintainers may not >wish to maintain a copy of the full TUHS archive. That's their perogative. >In fact, it might be useful to `name' each section of the full archive. >For example, someone might only want to mirror the VAX section. Perhaps >this can be called the VAX Unix Archive. > >I can modify the mechanism of ordering archive copies so that: > > + specific volunteers can nominate which archive sections they carry > + requesters can order specific sections, or all, and find out how > big each section is > + requests will only be sent to those volunteers who can do them > > >Copyright & License Issues >-------------------------- > >At present, most things in the archive are protected by licenses and/or >copyright. This probably isn't going to change soon. The current mechanisms >to ensure access by license holders will be preserved. > >Given the aims of TUHS, I am prepared to keep in the archive anything that >is Unix-related for antiquated or non-mainstream systems. We may not >be able to release some of this due to license or copyright reasons. In >that case, it will be kept hidden away in the archive until it can be >released. It won't be mirrored or be available for copying in any way >until that time. > >A Personal Note >--------------- > >I'd like to maintain the PDP-11 archive, and initially do the TUHS stuff >(including web pages, mailing lists, top-level of the archive). I'll set >up platform-specific (or other-specific) levels as long as there is someone >who will volunteer to maintain that area, and any web pages and mailing >lists associated with them. > >It would also be a good idea to have an understudy or two in the wings, >just in case I get hit by a bus or something. > >Conclusion >---------- > >I'm sure there are other issues (especially implementation ones) that >I've missed above, but hopefully you get the general idea of my proposal >for future direction of PUPS and TUHS. ____________________________________________________________________ Robin Birch robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD Old computers and radios always welcome

24 years, 11 months

What to look for in a PDP machine?

by rdkeys＠unity.ncsu.edu

Interesting, there may be a PDPsomethingorother machine come available in surplus here. A quick glance at it showed it to be in a 1/2 height rack, with some custom name that meant nothing to me. But, it had two rack cabinets about 6 inches high each, with definite looking DEC cards, 4 wide cards, with an interconnecting cable between the two cases. The thing had a half gig scsi drive and scsi tape (60 or 150mb). Alas, I was able only to make a quick glance at it, before I had to leave. What might such a critter actually be? It had half a dozen RS232 terminal lines out the back, and a wyse terminal sitting on top of the case. It is not the kind of thing the PeeCee mongers are going to dive into, so it might go for a song if I wait a couple of weeks. It was not DEC badged, but definitely had what I would interpret as DEC boards inside. Bob

24 years, 11 months

Re: Dead MicroVAX II :(

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > If you want a modern Unix OS [...] If he did, why would he want a VAX? Someone who detests "modern" pee sea hardware and prefers the vastly superior classical DEC stuff (like I do) would surely feel the same way about software (again like I do). Why should one treat hardware and software differently in this respect? Why mix-and-match the wonderful classical hardware with crappy bloated "modern" software? -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA48765 for pups-liszt; Sat, 27 May 2000 08:22:49 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Brian Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com> Sat May 27 08:21:49 2000 Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA48761 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 27 May 2000 08:22:44 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from bdc(a)world.std.com) Received: from world.std.com (bdc(a)world-f.std.com [199.172.62.5]) by europe.std.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA20256 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 26 May 2000 18:21:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (bdc@localhost) by world.std.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA28977 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 26 May 2000 18:21:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:21:49 -0700 From: Brian Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Dead MicroVAX II :( In-Reply-To: <0005262051.AA18987(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.21.0005261515050.22157-100000(a)world.std.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, 26 May 2000, Michael Sokolov wrote: > jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > > If you want a modern Unix OS [...] > > If he did, why would he want a VAX? Someone who detests "modern" pee > sea hardware and prefers the vastly superior classical DEC stuff (like > I do) would surely feel the same way about software (again like I do). > Why should one treat hardware and software differently in this > respect? Why mix-and-match the wonderful classical hardware with > crappy bloated "modern" software? This list is definitely geared towards people running classic OSes on classic systems. I actually really enjoy having lots of the bloated modern hardware running on my VAXen. So much contemporary software compiles and runs right out of the tarballs under NetBSD/vax. And honestly, a lot of it performs quite admirably on even my humblest of MicroVAX II's. I see nothing incompatible with loving modern OSes running well on ancient hardware. :-) -brian. --- Brian Chase | bdc(a)world.std.com | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ ----- All math equations have a fistfight on at least one side. -- K. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA51832 for pups-liszt; Sun, 28 May 2000 01:50:42 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 12 months

Re: Dead MicroVAX II :(

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

David O'Brien <obrien(a)NUXI.com> wrote: > The port-vax(a)netbsd.org list is full of very VAX clueful people. So is quasijarus(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA48519 for pups-liszt; Sat, 27 May 2000 06:52:57 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 12 months

Re: Dead MicroVAX II :(

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

In article by Mike W.: > I have a digital microvax II in a 'world case'. I was wondering how to > hook it up and make it fly. I was told that it runs the Micro VMS OS, > but no to get get it on the machine, Model: one of two: VS12W-B2 or > V512W-B2. It is an old sticker, could be a 5 or an S. A tape drive is > installed, but no tape disk came with it. Is there another OS it can > run? Yes, it will run UNIX, the timesharing system by Ritchie and Thompson, Berkeley VAX version thereof, the current version of which is 4.3BSD-Quasijarus maintained by me, the WWW page for which is: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/ Running UNIX requires a UNIX source license (True UNIX never had, doesn't have, and never will have a concept of "binary only"), but these days SCO gives them out for FREE! You have a tape drive, so you will have no problem with installation. I have supply you with the boot tape, but you'll have to reimburse me for the tape and shipping. > How do I hook up the Console to work on it. For that matter, what does > the console look like? You need a standard RS-232 terminal. The console port connector on the MicroVAX is of a rather odd standard, though. A DEC BCC05 or BCC08 cable will connect it to a standard RS-232 DB25M terminal. If you want or have to make your own cable, I've got the pinout for the MicroVAX console port connector somewhere. > [...] nothing on 'where and > how the cables go on the back (bulkhead). The I/O distribution panel on the back provides external connections for all Q-bus modules you have. You'll have to tell us what Q-bus modules you have so that we can tell you what external connections they need. You obviously have the CPU, which has one external connection: the console port which I just told you about. > I need to know how, why and > when to turn the knobs on the back. On the CPU module bulkhead there are two knobs and one switch. One knob selects the console port baud rate. I think this one is obvious. You can use any of the baud rates printed around the knob, but 9600 baud is standard. The other knob selects between normal operation (the arrow icon), console language selection (the talking face icon), and console port loopback test (the T in the circle icon). I always leave it on the arrow icon. Finally, the switch selects between maintenance mode (halt enabled, stay in the console on power-up) and production mode (halt disabled, boot the OS on power-up). These correspond to the dot- inside-the-circle and dot-outside-the-circle icons, respectively. For now leave the dot inside the circle. For more info subscribe to the Quasijarus mailing list and ask there. Send subscription requests to: quasijarus-request(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA48495 for pups-liszt; Sat, 27 May 2000 06:46:12 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 12 months

Re: Dead MicroVAX II :(

by jkunz＠unixag-kl.fh-kl.de

On 25 May, David O'Brien wrote: > On Fri, May 26, 2000 at 08:33:51AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: >> In article by Mike W.: >> > I have a digital microvax II in a 'world case'. I was wondering how to >> > hook it up and make it fly. I was told that it runs the Micro VMS OS, > > The port-vax(a)netbsd.org list is full of very VAX clueful people. Yes. port-vax is the right audience. (I am part of it. ;-) ) There is an excellent site with information about VAX hardware. http://www.vaxarchive.org/hw/index.html mirror at http://vaxarchive.sevensages.org/hw/index.html There you can find a link to the KA630/MicroVAX II page http://www.telnet.hu/hamster/dr/ka630.html This will answer most of your questions. If you want a modern Unix OS look at www.netbsd.org. Or look at http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ (Hi Michael :-) ) -- tschüß, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA43336 for pups-liszt; Fri, 26 May 2000 19:19:50 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org> Fri May 26 19:22:21 2000 Received: from begemot.org (negara.cs.waikato.ac.nz [130.217.248.112]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA43332 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 26 May 2000 19:19:44 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from joerg(a)begemot.org) Received: (from joerg@localhost) by begemot.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) id VAA04812; Fri, 26 May 2000 21:22:21 +1200 (NZST) (envelope-from joerg) Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 21:22:21 +1200 From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Cc: joerg(a)begemot.org Subject: Begemot emulator and Harti Message-ID: <20000526212221.A4801(a)begemot.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Organization: Begemot Computer Associates Operating-System: ... powered by FreeBSD Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Just as a side note: if you think Harti's Emulator is a useful piece of software: sent him flowers. He's celebrating wedding this morning in Berlin, marrying a friendly young lady from Sibiria, Russia, her name is Larissa. Regards, Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)begemot.org> Begemot Computer Associates Phone: +64 7 8562148 40 Masters Avenue, Hillcrest Fax: +64 7 8562148 Hamilton, New Zealand Pager: +64 868 38222 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA44458 for pups-liszt; Sat, 27 May 2000 00:07:05 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com> Sat May 27 00:04:37 2000 Received: from guildenstern.shaffstall.com (cisdn-2.on-net.net [206.229.84.2]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA44454 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 27 May 2000 00:07:00 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jasomill(a)shaffstall.com) Received: from localhost (jasomill@localhost) by guildenstern.shaffstall.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA31910; Fri, 26 May 2000 09:04:37 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: guildenstern.shaffstall.com: jasomill owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 09:04:37 -0500 (EST) From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com> To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Hello and thanks! In-Reply-To: <200005260320.UAA27315(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10005260850030.31892-100000(a)guildenstern.shaffstall.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Well, I keep calling the hardware support folks, and it keeps ringing busy. Of course, since I don't have call waiting or voice mail, that is to be expected :) I've actually thought about trying to acquire an MSCP<->SCSI card and using one of the SCSI drives I have lying around, but the 19" rackmount stuff is too cool (unfortunately, my spares cabinet is full of dirty laundry and ruined CD-R media at the moment), though I suppose an RA92 would suffice (anybody got one? :) though my budget is henceforth nonexistant -- $300 wouldn't break the bank, because they wouldn't give it to me. Don't know about the RQDX3, either, but more likely the KDA50 (which drives my RA81 -- the RQDX3 is for RXen, no more). The '81 was up all last night, so I don't have error numbers yet; I'll try to repeat the RX50 problem sometime this weekend. The only FS, I have, is yours, though I've started reading through it. Though the SCSI spec is thousands of pages long, it's pretty easy to program; I just finished some raw-tape-read routines for Hewlett-Packard CS/80 tape drives, that was even simpler. In both cases, however, I do have documentation (exhaustive documentation in re: SCSI -- again, work related). I take it from your reply that such docs aren't to be had for MSCP? At any price? Jason T. Miller jasomill(a)shaffstall.com On Thu, 25 May 2000, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > Hi - > > > From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com> > > After about a week of work (mainly due to a dying RA81 ... see below), I > > have successfully installed 2.11BSD on my 11/83. First and foremost, > > thanks to a) Steven M. Shultz for so carefully maintaining and updating > > (!) CSRG's PDP-11 code to work with hardware such as my MSCP drives and > > TMSCP TK50 and b) everyone involved in prodding SCO to release free > > You're welcome! I can't take all of the credit (or blame depending > how you look at it) for the MSCP driver - that came about in 2.10 > just before I became heavily involved. Changes/rewrites/whatever > are my fault though ;) The TMSCP driver for 2BSD is my doing (based > on a *heavily* mauled version of the 4.3BSD one with some Ultrix > influences). > > > The only problems I've been having seem to be coming from disk controllers > > without media. More specifically, I get a hard error, followed by an > > endless loop of error indications if I try to access one of my RX50s (on > > an RQDX3 controller), and the only recourse is a reset. Okay, so the > > Hmmm, that's a new one to me. I used to have RX50s but they were > so d$&$*&^!d flakey that I put a standard "pc" 5.25" floppy on > instead (TEAC something or other). I didn't do the hardware stuff, > Terry Kennedy did that. Details on jumper setting to use a 5.25" > floppy in place of RX50s are floating around somewhere on the net > but I don't have the reference handy. > > Can't say I've had a problem with the floppy drive with no media. > It spins and eventually spits out an error but nothing bad happens > to the system. > > Hmmmm, what rev level of 2.11BSD do you have installed? The latest > from the PUPS archive (or at least fairly recent)? > > > solution here is simple: don't do it. The bigger problem comes with my > > flake-job of an RA81, which, FWIW, is the only fixed disk storage I have. > > It has a strange habit: the "A" light goes off and the controller can no > > Been there, seen that - on 11/44s with UDA50 controllers. When that > happened I picked up the phone and got the hardware support folks to > get me a new RA81 ;) After a while they got tired of maintaining > old hardware and when the RA81 died the last time they just turned off > the system and later sold it for scrap (instead of spending $300 for > a RA92 drive). Boo hiss. > > RA81s have been the worst drive I've seen for failures - it should > be fairly cheap to get a RA92 (8" desktop enclosure if I recall > right) to replace the RA81. Does the RQDX3 support the larger > drives though I wonder? > > > the same loop-of-errors syndrome as an empty RX50. Anyone have any > > pointers or sage advice? I figured I may try to modify the MSCP driver to > > re-init the controller on a hard error, and try again. But the MSCP code > > is fairly complicated, and I know nothing of the protocol. Anyone have any > > You're not just whistling Dixie there - it's the most complex > convoluted protocol I've seen for handling disks (and tapes). Well, > SCSI these days might be just as complex - but there's a difference: > I can get lots better specs and documentation for SCSI than I can for > MSCP. If you've access to other systems (RSX, IAS, etc) sources you > can RTFS (Read The Fine Source) and try to puzzle out how MSCP works > what the errors are and what to do about them but that's a far > cry from a complete, detailed, tabular, whatever document on how to > write a MSCP driver. > > > MSCP documentation which I could beg, borrow, or steal? I'd give the > > specific error codes, but I haven't written any down yet and I'm at work. > > I know I did do some work (mostly in the TMSCP part though) to improve > error handling and not leave drives stranded and the like. If you > can jot down the error codes I can take a look at the driver and > perhaps see what can be done to recover more gracefully. > > Cheers! > > Steven Schultz > sms(a)moe.2bsd.com > Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA44573 for pups-liszt; Sat, 27 May 2000 00:41:22 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Sat May 27 00:40:23 2000 Received: from toulon.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (toulon.Informatik.Uni-Tuebingen.De [134.2.12.9]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA44569 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 27 May 2000 00:41:17 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de) Received: from informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (wintermute [134.2.12.56]) by toulon.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DC1E1061 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 26 May 2000 16:40:23 +0200 (DFT) Received: (from leypold@localhost) by informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA12383; Fri, 26 May 2000 16:40:23 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de) Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 16:40:23 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200005261440.QAA12383(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> X-Authentication-Warning: wintermute.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de: leypold set sender to leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de using -f From: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Building a 2.11BSD tape for Supnik's emulator Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hello Seth, I never worked with a real PDP-11. I tried to build a V7 Boot tape for the Supnick and still did not succeed, but I got the following impressions: * V7 Doc says, You can't use the bootstrap from the DEC bulk ROM, but need to key in a custom bootstrap. Have a look into the V7 Manual Volume 2B (Essay about Installing UNIX). * It seems, a tape also needs to contain labels for the files (512 Byte Records), kind of directory. Regards -- Markus Original Message: --------------------------------- Hello folks, I'm trying to build a 2.11BSD boot tape for Bob Supnik's emulator. I downloaded the tape files from Distributions/ucb/2.11BSD, and put them together with the following commands (on Linux): cat mtboot mtboot boot | dd of=file0 obs=512 dd if=disklabel of=file1 obs=1024 dd if=mkfs of=file2 obs=1024 dd if=restor of=file3 obs=1024 dd if=icheck of=file4 obs=1024 dd if=root.dump of=file5 obs=10240 dd if=file6.tar of=file6 obs=10240 dd if=file7.tar of=file7 obs=10240 dd if=file8.tar of=file8 obs=10240 cat file? > boot.tape [I've verified the shell expands this expression to the correct file order] But when I run the simulator and try to boot from the tape (with or without the -o optiont to 'boot'), it fails, like so: % pdp11 PDP-11 simulator V2.3d sim> set cpu 18b sim> set cpu 2048K sim> att tm0 boot.tape sim> boot tm0 HALT instruction, PC: 000002 (HALT) sim> boot -o tm0 HALT instruction, PC: 000002 (HALT) sim> It's like the bootstrap code isn't working. Or possibly I've completely misunderstood the proper way to build a tape image. Is there a better way to go about it? - -Seth Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA45296 for pups-liszt; Sat, 27 May 2000 02:31:58 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sat May 27 02:26:28 2000 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA45292 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 27 May 2000 02:31:49 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA08996 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Fri, 26 May 2000 09:26:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 09:26:28 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200005261626.JAA08996(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Building a 2.11BSD tape for Supnik's emulator Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > From: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> > I never worked with a real PDP-11. I tried to build a V7 Boot tape for > the Supnick and still did not succeed, but I got the following impressions: > > * It seems, a tape also needs to contain labels for the files > (512 Byte Records), kind of directory. Not exactly. The boot tape consists of files with different block sizes but has no "labels". > Original Message: > --------------------------------- > I'm trying to build a 2.11BSD boot tape for Bob Supnik's emulator. I > downloaded the tape files from Distributions/ucb/2.11BSD, and put them > together with the following commands (on Linux): > > cat mtboot mtboot boot | dd of=file0 obs=512 > dd if=disklabel of=file1 obs=1024 > dd if=mkfs of=file2 obs=1024 > dd if=restor of=file3 obs=1024 > dd if=icheck of=file4 obs=1024 > dd if=root.dump of=file5 obs=10240 > dd if=file6.tar of=file6 obs=10240 > dd if=file7.tar of=file7 obs=10240 > dd if=file8.tar of=file8 obs=10240 > cat file? > boot.tape [I've verified the shell expands this > expression to the correct file order] So close yet so far. You do not need to "reblock" the files - they already have the correct sizes. What you do need to do is run a program to add the record length information for the emulator. The emulator needs to have "virtual" file and record mark information added. If you look in the "usr/src/sys/pdpstand" directory you will find a source file "makesimtape.c". This is a slightly modified version of the 'maketape' program which 2.11 uses to create its own boot tapes. The modifications consist of changes to add the virtual tape marks for Bob's emulator. I will include a copy of makesimtape.c below in case anyone has trouble finding it in the source tree. makesimtape should compile on almost anything (I've used it on 2.11BSD, BSD/OS, and I think FreeBSD). Compile that program. Then create a small file (maketape.data) containing: mtboot 1 mtboot 1 boot 1 * 1 disklabel 2 * 1 mkfs 2 * 1 restor 2 * 1 icheck 2 * 1 root.dump 20 * 1 file6.tar 20 * 1 file7.tar 20 * 1 file8.tar 20 *1 Then "makesimtape -i maketape.data -o your_tape_file" will create the virtual tape file in 'your_tape_file'. Actually to make sure things work (and the tape is bootable and can run the standalone programs) all you need are the files up thru root.dump - that is enough to load the root filesystem. With a real tape drive you use the "maketape" program that comes with 2.11 of course since it wants to issue ioctl calls to place real tape marks, etc on a tape. > It's like the bootstrap code isn't working. Or possibly I've completely > misunderstood the proper way to build a tape image. Is there a better > way to go about it? Hopefully the method described above will be closer to what's needed. it has been quite a while since I've actually created a simulated tape so I might have left out a step or something. Good Luck! Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com =====================makesimtape.c========================= /* * @(#)makesimtape.c 2.1 (2.11BSD) 1998/12/31 * Hacked 'maketape.c' to write a file in a format suitable for * use with Bob Supnik's PDP-11 simulator (V2.3) emulated tape * driver. * * NOTE: a PDP-11 has to flip the shorts within the long when writing out * the record size. Seems a PDP-11 is neither a little-endian * machine nor a big-endian one. */ #include <stdio.h> #include <errno.h> #include <fcntl.h> #include <stdlib.h> #include <sys/types.h> #include <sys/stat.h> #include <sys/uio.h> #define MAXB 30 char buf[MAXB * 512]; char name[50]; long recsz, flipped, trl(); int blksz; int mt, fd, cnt; struct iovec iovec[3]; struct iovec tmark[2]; void usage(); main(argc, argv) int argc; char *argv[]; { int i, j = 0, k = 0; long zero = 0; register char *outfile = NULL, *infile = NULL; FILE *mf; struct stat st; while ((i = getopt(argc, argv, "i:o:")) != EOF) { switch (i) { case 'o': outfile = optarg; break; case 'i': infile = optarg; break; default: usage(); /* NOTREACHED */ } } if (!outfile || !infile) usage(); /* NOTREACHED */ /* * Stat the outfile and make sure it either 1) Does not exist, or * 2) Exists but is a regular file. */ if (stat(outfile, &st) != -1 && !(S_ISREG(st.st_mode))) errx(1, "outfile must either not exist or be a regular file"); /* NOTREACHED */ mt = open(outfile, O_WRONLY|O_CREAT|O_TRUNC, 0600); if (mt < 0) err(1, "Can not create %s", outfile); /* NOTREACHED */ mf = fopen(infile, "r"); if (!mf) err(1, "Can not open %s", infile); /* NOTREACHED*/ tmark[0].iov_len = sizeof (long); tmark[0].iov_base = (char *)&zero; while (1) { if ((i = fscanf(mf, "%s %d", name, &blksz))== EOF) exit(0); if (i != 2) { fprintf(stderr,"Help! Scanf didn't read 2 things (%d)\n", i); exit(1); } if (blksz <= 0 || blksz > MAXB) { fprintf(stderr, "Block size %u is invalid\n", blksz); exit(1); } recsz = blksz * 512; /* convert to bytes */ iovec[0].iov_len = sizeof (recsz); #ifdef pdp11 iovec[0].iov_base = (char *)&flipped; #else iovec[0].iov_base = (char *)&recsz; #endif iovec[1].iov_len = (int)recsz; iovec[1].iov_base = buf; iovec[2].iov_len = iovec[0].iov_len; iovec[2].iov_base = iovec[0].iov_base; if (strcmp(name, "*") == 0) { if (writev(mt, tmark, 1) < 0) warn(1, "writev of pseudo tapemark failed"); k++; continue; } fd = open(name, 0); if (fd < 0) err(1, "Can't open %s for reading", name); /* NOTREACHED */ printf("%s: block %d, file %d\n", name, j, k); /* * we pad the last record with nulls * (instead of the bell std. of padding with trash). * this allows you to access text files on the * tape without garbage at the end of the file. * (note that there is no record length associated * with tape files) */ while ((cnt=read(fd, buf, (int)recsz)) == (int)recsz) { j++; #ifdef pdp11 flipped = trl(recsz); #endif if (writev(mt, iovec, 3) < 0) err(1, "writev #1"); /* NOTREACHED */ } if (cnt > 0) { j++; bzero(buf + cnt, (int)recsz - cnt); #ifdef pdp11 flipped = trl(recsz); #endif if (writev(mt, iovec, 3) < 0) err(1, "writev #2"); /* NOTREACHED */ } close(fd); } /* * Write two tape marks to simulate EOT */ writev(mt, tmark, 1); writev(mt, tmark, 1); } long trl(l) long l; { union { long l; short s[2]; } foo; register short x; foo.l = l; x = foo.s[0]; foo.s[0] = foo.s[1]; foo.s[1] = x; return(foo.l); } void usage() { fprintf(stderr, "usage: makesimtape -o outfilefile -i inputfile\n"); exit(1); }

24 years, 12 months

Hello and thanks!

by Jason T. Miller

After about a week of work (mainly due to a dying RA81 ... see below), I have successfully installed 2.11BSD on my 11/83. First and foremost, thanks to a) Steven M. Shultz for so carefully maintaining and updating (!) CSRG's PDP-11 code to work with hardware such as my MSCP drives and TMSCP TK50 and b) everyone involved in prodding SCO to release free Ancient UNIX source licenses. After dealing with a crippled binary-only Micro/RSX lack-of-a-kit, and as a FreeBSD user of five-odd years, I decided to bite the bullet and see what UNIX was/is like on a PDP. Thanks to the work of Steven and a cast of thousands, it's pretty damned impressive. The only problems I've been having seem to be coming from disk controllers without media. More specifically, I get a hard error, followed by an endless loop of error indications if I try to access one of my RX50s (on an RQDX3 controller), and the only recourse is a reset. Okay, so the solution here is simple: don't do it. The bigger problem comes with my flake-job of an RA81, which, FWIW, is the only fixed disk storage I have. It has a strange habit: the "A" light goes off and the controller can no longer access it. If I soft-restart the PDP (under either RSX or UNIX), the driver connects back to the drive without a glitch. And this gives me the same loop-of-errors syndrome as an empty RX50. Anyone have any pointers or sage advice? I figured I may try to modify the MSCP driver to re-init the controller on a hard error, and try again. But the MSCP code is fairly complicated, and I know nothing of the protocol. Anyone have any MSCP documentation which I could beg, borrow, or steal? I'd give the specific error codes, but I haven't written any down yet and I'm at work. Also, I am willing to provide a Good Home for any 19" rackmount MSCP drives in the midwest. Let me rephrase that: any one or two; I have a one bedroom apartment, and I'm saving a bit of floorspace for a (yet to materialize) VAX. Also Qbus thinnet or SCSI would be nice, whilst on cloud 780... TIA, jasomill Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA39885 for pups-liszt; Fri, 26 May 2000 08:30:23 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com> Fri May 26 08:28:09 2000 Received: from guildenstern.shaffstall.com (cisdn-2.on-net.net [206.229.84.2]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA39881 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 26 May 2000 08:30:17 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jasomill(a)shaffstall.com) Received: from localhost (jasomill@localhost) by guildenstern.shaffstall.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA21354 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 25 May 2000 17:28:10 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: guildenstern.shaffstall.com: jasomill owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 17:28:09 -0500 (EST) From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: to change without notice Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10005251726530.20729-100000(a)guildenstern.shaffstall.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk After reading the _entire_ archive of PUPS messages, and realizing that, no, I'm not crazy and, no, I'm not the only one still interested in old hardware and software, I dug up two old 16-bit UNIX distributions and promptly archived 'em. Unfortunately, they're binary only and System-V based, so I can't just throw 'em in the archive. But when the game is up on the System-V codebase, I hope these CD-Rs are still around. They are: - SCO XENIX 286 2.2, complete OS with development system and text processing ([tn]roff, etc) - Microport System V/AT Development System (runtimes say both 1.3 and 2.3, development stuff says 1.3 - don't know, never booted this one) All the floppies read without errors, and I've actually booted and run the XENIX (used it for a tape conversion job a couple years ago) - works as long as you have a 5.25" floppy drive and reasonably old hardware - I ran it on a 386 but it doesn't grok VGA. Also, I have the ability to write TK50 tapes along with a wide range of other formats (my employer makes tape conversion equipment and software); no TK25 (unless the old IBM Tandberg VarBlock format is identical - don't know) or TK70, but just about anything else (need PDP UNIX on an HP 9144A cartridge tape; a) why? and b) I can help*!). I'd be happy to cut PDP UNIX tapes for media and shipping. Finally, anyone ever used the mtools package to read MS-DOS disks from an RX50 from a DEC Rainbow? I'm working on it (no Rainbow, but I've got a box that writes Rainbow disks) and I'd be glad to help anyone interested; I'm also working on R/W RX50 on FreeBSD. Jason T. Miller jasomill(a)shaffstall.com * but not much, unless someone is willing to replace the rubber roller thingy on my HP drive, but, as usual, I digress. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA39928 for pups-liszt; Fri, 26 May 2000 08:34:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Fri May 26 08:33:51 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA39924 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 26 May 2000 08:34:45 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id IAA07703; Fri, 26 May 2000 08:33:51 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200005252233.IAA07703(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Dead MicroVAX II :( In-Reply-To: <392CE14B.597E81B8(a)willapabay.org> from "Mike W." at "May 25, 2000 1:16:11 am" To: tscowboy(a)willapabay.org (Mike W.) Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 08:33:51 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Mike W.: > I have a digital microvax II in a 'world case'. I was wondering how to > hook it up and make it fly. I was told that it runs the Micro VMS OS, > but no to get get it on the machine, Model: one of two: VS12W-B2 or > V512W-B2. It is an old sticker, could be a 5 or an S. A tape drive is > installed, but no tape disk came with it. Is there another OS it can > run? I wish I knew what to do. I turn it on and it reads something like > 8, 7, 6, 5, 8, B, C, 3 and then after a VERY long pause, it reads E for > another long period, then 6 for another long wait and then E forever. > How do I hook up the Console to work on it. For that matter, what does > the console look like? How do I go to console mode? Is there some kind > of manual on it? I have about 8 or 9 monitors and the same amount of > keyboards and most of the cables. I would like to bring it back to life > and put it in a show room or something. I have no money, the whole thing > was given to me. The drives > were wiped clean (it was at the Hospital, they upgraded). I take it the > E on the readout tells me, "There is no OS installed". After a month or > so of searching the internet, I have found a few 'commands' and how to > wire one cable, a picture and QBUS routing, but nothing on 'where and > how the cables go on the back (bulkhead). I need to know how, why and > when to turn the knobs on the back. > Yes, I know nothing of this thing and would like to learn. I know the > MAC a little, MS-DOS in my sleep. Anyway..... > > Mike Williams > 4212 S. Pacific Way > Seaview, Wa. 98644-0068 > tscowboy(a)willapabay.org I'll cc this to the Pups mailing list. You should subscribe so that you can get any answers! Details at: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS/maillist.html Ciao, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA40418 for pups-liszt; Fri, 26 May 2000 10:13:29 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Fri May 26 10:12:40 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA40414 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 26 May 2000 10:13:26 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id KAA08415 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Fri, 26 May 2000 10:12:40 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200005260012.KAA08415(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Who uploaded these to the PUPS ARchive? To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 10:12:40 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi all, I'm just doing some house cleaning on the PUPS Archive. I've forgotten who uploaded these into the incoming directory? -rw-r----- 1 wkt pupsarc 53634 Feb 24 1999 29pro_inclsys.tar.gz -rw-r----- 1 wkt pupsarc 777081 Feb 24 1999 29pro_sys.tar.gz -rw-r--r-- 1 pups pupsarc 5332873 Jan 17 01:48 old-ultrix-32.tar.gz -rw-r--r-- 1 pups pupsarc 371111664 Mar 20 06:00 old-ultrix.tar.gz As well, can you supply a README saying what is in these files, too :-) My memory isn't what it used to me. Thanks! Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA41586 for pups-liszt; Fri, 26 May 2000 14:35:06 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Fri May 26 14:34:18 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA41582 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 26 May 2000 14:35:03 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id OAA09658 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Fri, 26 May 2000 14:34:19 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200005260434.OAA09658(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: More PUPS Donations & Volunteers To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 14:34:18 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi all, Since the free SCO license, we've had an enormous demand on our PUPS volunteers. If there is anybody in Japan who can burn CDs, could you contact me if you are prepared to burn a few copies of the PUPS CD. I've made a start on tidying up the archive & moving recently donated things to appropriate directories. Are there other systems out there which could be donated to the archive? I've just have a Z8000 SystemIII system being donated. I'm happy to take donations, but they may not be moved into the main archive because I don't want to have my butt sued off. Ages ago, George Colouris at QMC in the UK had a 9-track tape containing QED, the visual Unix editor which influenced the development of vi. Can anybody in the UK read 9-tracks. If so, I'll put you in contact with George. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA41696 for pups-liszt; Fri, 26 May 2000 14:51:59 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> Fri May 26 14:44:17 2000 Received: from relay.nuxi.com (root(a)nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA41692 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 26 May 2000 14:51:55 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from obrien(a)NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (nobody(a)relay.nuxi.com [169.237.7.38]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA06137; Thu, 25 May 2000 21:51:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien(a)dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id VAA42078; Thu, 25 May 2000 21:44:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 21:44:17 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> To: "Mike W." <tscowboy(a)willapabay.org> Cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Dead MicroVAX II :( Message-ID: <20000525214417.A58091(a)dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien(a)NUXI.com References: <392CE14B.597E81B8(a)willapabay.org> <200005252233.IAA07703(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200005252233.IAA07703(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>; from wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au on Fri, May 26, 2000 at 08:33:51AM +1000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, May 26, 2000 at 08:33:51AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Mike W.: > > I have a digital microvax II in a 'world case'. I was wondering how to > > hook it up and make it fly. I was told that it runs the Micro VMS OS, The port-vax(a)netbsd.org list is full of very VAX clueful people. -- -- David (obrien(a)NUXI.com) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA42383 for pups-liszt; Fri, 26 May 2000 16:00:58 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Fri May 26 15:59:56 2000 Received: from junk.nocrew.org (mail(a)[212.73.17.42]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA42379 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 26 May 2000 16:00:53 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from lars(a)junk.nocrew.org) Received: from lars by junk.nocrew.org with local (Exim 3.03 #1 (Debian)) id 12vDA4-00039I-00; Fri, 26 May 2000 07:59:56 +0200 To: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: PDP-11 MMU docs? References: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000525173018.7767F-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> From: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Date: 26 May 2000 07:59:56 +0200 In-Reply-To: Johnny Billquist's message of "Thu, 25 May 2000 17:30:37 +0200 (MET DST)" Message-ID: <85em6pvokj.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> writes: > On 25 May 2000, lars brinkhoff wrote: > > Is there any PDP-11 MMU documentation available? > Don't remember seeing any. What do you want to know? Everything necessary to emulate one in software. I have Supnik's simulator, but it would be easier if I had proper docs. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA42466 for pups-liszt; Fri, 26 May 2000 16:20:11 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Fri May 26 16:18:57 2000 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA42459 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 26 May 2000 16:20:00 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA29942 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Thu, 25 May 2000 23:18:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 23:18:57 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200005260618.XAA29942(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: PDP-11 MMU docs? Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > From: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> > Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> writes: > > On 25 May 2000, lars brinkhoff wrote: > > > Is there any PDP-11 MMU documentation available? > > Don't remember seeing any. What do you want to know? > > Everything necessary to emulate one in software. I have Supnik's > simulator, but it would be easier if I had proper docs. Do you also have Harti Brandt's P11 ("Begemot") emulator? That is a _work of art_! Has an emulated DEQNA so you can place the "PDP-11" on a LAN, the timeskew problem has been fixed (the emulated pdp-11 keeps good time), and it also has a TOY clock now. Check out http://www.begemot.org Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA43074 for pups-liszt; Fri, 26 May 2000 18:55:33 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 12 months

Re: Installing an OS on my little friendly VAX-11.

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> wrote: > I'd recommend you look into the Quasijarus project at > http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ > > and join their mailing list by sending a request to Michael Sokolov: > msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG Thanks, Warren, for helping me out with awareness-raising! I have to disappoint Jeff a little bit, though, that 4.3BSD-Quasijarus support for BabyVAXen is still a while away, but trust me, we will get there some day! But my project pages and mailing list are definitely a tremendous resource. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA36284 for pups-liszt; Thu, 25 May 2000 18:45:11 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 12 months

Re: Installing an OS on my little friendly VAX-11.

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Jeff Johnson <jeff+pups(a)websitefactory.net> wrote: > I've got a VAXstation 2000 with 12MB of RAM, and two RD54 drives, > one of which is developing bad sectors (the secondary). I've got the > eight bitplane graphics card and no terminal available. Two RD54s? At least one of them must be external then, as there's only room for one full-height device in the VS2K box itself. I'm going to assume that you have the standard DEC configuration with one RD54 internal and an expansion adapter (pizza box) at the bottom with the 2nd external RD54 connected to it. Hey, except for the lack of TK50Z, you've got pretty much the maximum configuration from DEC for VS2K: maximum memory, maximum number of disks of top-of-the-line type, expansion adapter, and top-of-the-line graphics card! On your expansion adapter, right next to the connector for the external RD54, you should see a 50-lead Amphenol (aka Centronics) SCSI connector. It is indeed real SCSI, but the boot ROM, VMS, and Ultrix only support one SCSI device on it, the TK50Z. > I also don't have a TK50 or any external storage, Note that if you can get hold of a TK50Z (a box just like your external RD54, but with a TK50 drive and a TK50-to-SCSI adapter inside), you can readily plug it into the connector I just described. I don't think a TK50Z would be that expensive. Here in Dallas, TX, USA I get bare TK50 drives for $75 apiece and TK50 drive + TQK50 controller (for Q-bus) pairs for $100 apiece, and I don't think a TK50Z would be much more expensive. > so it looks like I'll be netbooting. Sorry, can't help you with that, I and netbooting have never been able to successfully coexist in the same machine room at the same time. > The machine currently has OpenVMS 7.2 on it which I can re-license and get > running if it would help for an install. If you have VMS running on one disk, you can use it to install Ultrix on the other. Talk to me directly for the instructions. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA97968 for pups-liszt; Thu, 25 May 2000 13:46:08 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 12 months

Installing an OS on my little friendly VAX-11.

by Jeff Johnson

Hey guys. I've got a VAXstation 2000 with 12MB of RAM, and two RD54 drives, one of which is developing bad sectors (the secondary). I've got the eight bitplane graphics card and no terminal available. I'd really love to get a copy of Ultrix 4.2 installed on this machine, but from what I can tell it isn't available. I also don't have a TK50 or any external storage, so it looks like I'll be netbooting. The machine currently has OpenVMS 7.2 on it which I can re-license and get running if it would help for an install. I've had almost no success with NetBSD either. The only kernel that would boot was a 1.3 snapshot release. All of the 1.4 kernels crap out immediately upon booting, and nobodys seems to be able to help me. Also, if anyone has a source for additional expansion for this machine, I'd be grateful. Thanks very much for your time. I really want to get this machine up and running again. -- Jeffrey H. Johnson - jeff(a)websitefactory.net - System Administration - TrN Barnet Worldwide Enterprises - The Website Factory - www.websitefactory.net

24 years, 12 months

ACMS, Questions on Internet History. (fwd)

by Dave Horsfall

Perhaps some of the learned people on this list can help this chappie out? The ACMS is the Australian Computer Museum Society, and could in turn be a valuable resource for this list; note that he signs himself as a "PDP-11 Support Consultant"... Replies to him, please, unless deemed of interest to the list. -- Dave Horsfall VK2KFU dave(a)geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: +61 2 9978-7422 Geac Computers P/L (FGH Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 12:53:26 From: John G E R E M I N <megajohn(a)sneaker.net.au> To: ACS NSW List <acsnsw-l(a)onelist.com> Subject: ACMS, Questions on Internet History. Greetings All, (from a Netscape v3, Eudora and Win-3.11 system), The ACMS has been asked about the History Of The Internet In Australia. This assumes that the 'Internet' is defined as using IP protocols, and the World-Wide-Web that provided permanent (or semi-permanent) connections between major nodes and the end-users. We also know that DEC had world-wide DECNET for its corporate use. We know that U**X systems had FTP, TELNET etc available on systems using fixed line connections (eg within Unis, etc). We know about the ArpaNet origins (we hope) We know? that the first Internet users here were the CSIRO and Unis. But were they connected initially to the overseas Internet ? So some questions, designed to sort out some confusions. First hand experiences would be good as would pointers to documentation. Note - all these relate to Australia (but answers may include info relating to overseas contexts). a1 First use of Fido-Net or other BBS using Dial-up messaging ? a2 First use of E-MAIL via FidoNet or other BBS ? a3 First use of FreeWare/File Distribution via FidoNet or other BBS ? a4 First use of Message/Conference Areas/Groups on BBS ? b1 First use of permanent IP addresses ? b2 First use of E-MAIL via IP addresses ? b3 First use of File Transfers via Internet ? b4 First use of NewsGroups via Internet ? b5 First use of Graphical Displays via Internet ? b6 First use of 'http://www' type URL addressing via Internet ? b7 First use of two-way (interactive) audio via Internet ? b8 First use of two-way (intereactive) video via Internet ? c1 Any other major Internet milestones in the Australian environment ? Many thanks, John G. (PS you don't need to answer all questions!) John GEREMIN, megajohn(a)sneaker.net.au Ph. 02-9764 4855 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ PDP-11 Support Consultant, MEGATRONICS, Australia. http://www.posit.com.au/megatronics/ NEW Mob. => 0427 10 20 60 <= Hon. Treasurer, Australian COMPUTER MUSEUM Society Inc. http://www.terrigal.net.au/~acms/ Fax: 02-9764 4679 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA75969 for pups-liszt; Mon, 22 May 2000 23:57:33 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From John G E R E M I N <megajohn(a)sneaker.net.au> Sun May 21 12:53:26 2000 Received: from threedee.com (mail.threedee.com [209.83.65.10]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA75965 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 22 May 2000 23:57:26 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jfoust(a)threedee.com) Received: from winnie.threedee.com (winnie [192.198.5.13]) by threedee.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA29050; Mon, 22 May 2000 08:56:39 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.0.20000522085035.01c28580@pc> X-Sender: jfoust@pc X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3 Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 08:54:53 -0500 To: <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> From: John Foust <jfoust(a)threedee.com> Subject: Re: ACMS, Questions on Internet History. (fwd) Cc: John G E R E M I N <megajohn(a)sneaker.net.au> In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0005221634220.26282-100000(a)fgh.geac.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk At 04:39 PM 5/22/00 +1000, Dave Horsfall wrote: > a1 First use of Fido-Net or other BBS using Dial-up messaging ? > a2 First use of E-MAIL via FidoNet or other BBS ? > a3 First use of FreeWare/File Distribution via FidoNet or other BBS ? Tom Jennings, the creator of FidoNet, is still available at <tomj(a)wps.com> and there's a history at http://wps.com/FidoNet/source/Fido-FidoNet/fhist.html. Tom is now moderating the Dead Media Project at http://wps.com/dead-media/index.html. But by no means was FidoNet the first BBS. - John

25 years

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