[Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> writes:]
>UNIX V7 is contained on a single RL02 disk image. To boot UNIX:
>...
>Hope this helps!
Thanks! (Don't know how I missed this. :-<)
Yes, it helped, and I'm now the proud owner of a (virtual) single-user V7 box.
Time to hack!
Andy Valencia
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>From "Ryan Blair" <rblair(a)webteksdesign.com> Tue Jul 25 10:08:16 2000
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From: "Ryan Blair" <rblair(a)webteksdesign.com>
To: <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: [pups] 2.11 BSD image booting
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:08:16 -0400
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In the same rut as Andy Valencia:
I have tried booting the 2.11 BSD distribution that was in the boot images
directory, it has something like 9 disc pack images, and a script to boot it
with Supnik. Well, it boots all right, but I can't access most of the
filesystem, just the root, and even there most of the files seem corrupt. It
gets even worse when I try to shut it down. It will not even boot back up
after I shut it down in the emulator.
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue Jul 25 10:14:09 2000
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <200007250014.KAA35364(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: [pups] 2.11 BSD image booting
In-Reply-To: <001901bff5cc$8c02f200$2f0e0923@rbp200> from Ryan Blair at "Jul
24, 2000 08:08:16 pm"
To: Ryan Blair <rblair(a)webteksdesign.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:14:09 +1000 (EST)
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In article by Ryan Blair:
[Charset iso-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...]
> In the same rut as Andy Valencia:
> I have tried booting the 2.11 BSD distribution that was in the boot images
> directory, it has something like 9 disc pack images, and a script to boot it
> with Supnik. Well, it boots all right, but I can't access most of the
> filesystem, just the root, and even there most of the files seem corrupt. It
> gets even worse when I try to shut it down. It will not even boot back up
> after I shut it down in the emulator.
I think all the 2.11BSD disk images in Boot_Images are suspect.
I wonder if we could prevail upon Steven Schultz (or someone)
to build some 2.11BSD disk images which would be suitable for the
Supnik and Ersatz emulators.
Cheers,
Warren
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Jul 25 10:22:40 2000
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To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au
Cc: Ryan Blair <rblair(a)webteksdesign.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] 2.11 BSD image booting
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On Tuesday, 25 July 2000 at 10:14:09 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by Ryan Blair:
> [Charset iso-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...]
>> In the same rut as Andy Valencia:
>> I have tried booting the 2.11 BSD distribution that was in the boot images
>> directory, it has something like 9 disc pack images, and a script to boot it
>> with Supnik. Well, it boots all right, but I can't access most of the
>> filesystem, just the root, and even there most of the files seem corrupt. It
>> gets even worse when I try to shut it down. It will not even boot back up
>> after I shut it down in the emulator.
>
> I think all the 2.11BSD disk images in Boot_Images are suspect.
>
> I wonder if we could prevail upon Steven Schultz (or someone)
> to build some 2.11BSD disk images which would be suitable for the
> Supnik and Ersatz emulators.
I had some somewhere, but I haven't run them for a while. They're
also very big.
Greg
--
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See complete headers for address and phone numbers
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>From Jeremy Bingham <jeremy(a)mail.flyingcroc.net> Tue Jul 25 10:37:47 2000
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Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 17:37:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeremy Bingham <jeremy(a)mail.flyingcroc.net>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: [pups] Getting a MicroPDP-11 Running
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I just acquired a MicroPDP-11 from a Goodwill a couple of days ago with a
RX50-A dual 400KB floppy and an RD52 31/33(?)MB hard drive, but it doesn't
have a tape drive. My questions are:
1.) What UNIXes have been successfully loaded onto these types of machines?
2.) Can it be done without a tape? If so, has anybody pulled it off?
3.) Are there any utilities, either DOS or UNIX/Linux/FreeBSD based, to write
and/or format RX50 floppies?
I tried looking through the mail archive, but there didn't seem to be anything
there that addressed this question. Thanks in advance to everybody.
-j
----------------------------------------------------------
You know you've been spending too much time on the computer when your
friend misdates a check, and you suggest adding a "++" to fix it.
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Tue Jul 25 13:00:06 2000
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From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <200007250300.UAA22851(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: rblair(a)webteksdesign.com, wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] 2.11 BSD image booting
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Howdy -
> From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
> In article by Ryan Blair:
> > In the same rut as Andy Valencia:
> > I have tried booting the 2.11 BSD distribution that was in the boot images
> > directory, it has something like 9 disc pack images, and a script to boot it
> > with Supnik. Well, it boots all right, but I can't access most of the
> > filesystem, just the root, and even there most of the files seem corrupt.
>
> I think all the 2.11BSD disk images in Boot_Images are suspect.
Hmmm, I don't think they're corrupt.
Wasn't there a similar posting a month or two ago about someone (I
forget who it was) having "massive corruption". It turned out that
the simulator was only told to use 256kb of memory (18bit mode). Once
the "set cpu 2048k" command was added to the conf file the problems
cleared right up. A good case can be made that it's a bug the system
doesn't outright crash if it's unhappy with the amount of memory but
given it's so easy to 'add memory' to the system I can't work up any
enthusiasm to track down and fix the problem ;)
> I wonder if we could prevail upon Steven Schultz (or someone)
> to build some 2.11BSD disk images which would be suitable for the
> Supnik and Ersatz emulators.
Well, one could take the tape images that are in the archive and
run the suitable tape preparation program ('makesimtape' for Supnik's
simulator and I think makesimtape.c is around in the archive as well).
Might need a "toggle in" boot for that (it's in the 2.11 setup and
installation guide) though since I do not recall the Supnik simulator
knowing how to boot from tape.
Try putting "set cpu 2048k" (I don't _think_ you need both "set cpu
22b" and "set cpu 2048k" but having both doesn't hurt and may help).
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Tue Jul 25 13:18:29 2000
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Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:18:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <200007250318.UAA23005(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: jeremy(a)mail.flyingcroc.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Getting a MicroPDP-11 Running
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Hi!
> From: Jeremy Bingham <jeremy(a)mail.flyingcroc.net>
> I just acquired a MicroPDP-11 from a Goodwill a couple of days ago with a
Wow - that's a source for PDP-11s I would never have thought of :)
> RX50-A dual 400KB floppy and an RD52 31/33(?)MB hard drive, but it doesn't
> have a tape drive. My questions are:
> 1.) What UNIXes have been successfully loaded onto these types of machines?
I think we need just one more little piece of information before we
can match up a version of Unix with your new machine.
We need to know if it's an 11/23 (23+), or an 11/53 (73). The
label "MicroPDP-11" was used on a number of systems. If it's a 53
or better then you can run any of the PDP-11 Unix systems that are
out there. If it's a 23 class machine then you're limited to V7
or earlier (2.9BSD would probably fit but it would be a struggle and
you definitely wouldn't be able to use the networking).
Looking at the system maint register with the console ODT would
probably be the easiest way to determine the cpu type - examine
location 177750 (or 17777750 depending if the system needs the
explicit 22 bit address). Bits 4 thru 7 tell the module type:
5 = KDJ-11E (93, 94), 4 = KDJ-11D (53), 3 = KXJ11-C, 2 = KDJ11B
(quad high 73), 1 = KDJ-11A (dual high board 73). If it's a 23 the
sys maint register probably doesn't exist.
Another way would be to look at the module number on the spine of the
card ;)
> 2.) Can it be done without a tape? If so, has anybody pulled it off?
A ~32mb disk is going to be very tight for any 2BSD system. V7 will
fit I think.
> 3.) Are there any utilities, either DOS or UNIX/Linux/FreeBSD based, to write
> and/or format RX50 floppies?
Hmmm, I thought John Wilson has some utilities that could do that.
Normally you need to buy preformatted RX50 disks or have a DEC Rainbow
(DOS) system around.
On the other hand if the controller is an RQDX3 it is possible with
some luck (and more hardware skill than I have ;)) hook up a standard
5.25" Teac floppy drive. I don't have the location of the info for
that at hand - you might try the alt.sys.pdp11 or vmsnet.pdp-11
newsgroups (lots of knowing folks hang out there).
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
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>From maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com> Tue Jul 25 14:16:09 2000
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From: maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com>
To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
CC: jeremy(a)mail.flyingcroc.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
In-reply-to: <200007250318.UAA23005(a)moe.2bsd.com> (sms(a)moe.2bsd.com)
Subject: Re: [pups] Getting a MicroPDP-11 Running
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>Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:18:29 -0700 (PDT)
>From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
>
>> From: Jeremy Bingham <jeremy(a)mail.flyingcroc.net>
>> [...]
>> 3.) Are there any utilities, either DOS or UNIX/Linux/FreeBSD based, to write
>> and/or format RX50 floppies?
>
> Hmmm, I thought John Wilson has some utilities that could do that.
> Normally you need to buy preformatted RX50 disks or have a DEC Rainbow
> (DOS) system around.
>
> On the other hand if the controller is an RQDX3 it is possible with
> some luck (and more hardware skill than I have ;)) hook up a standard
> 5.25" Teac floppy drive. I don't have the location of the info for
> that at hand - you might try the alt.sys.pdp11 or vmsnet.pdp-11
> newsgroups (lots of knowing folks hang out there).
http://vaxarchive.org/hw/rx50.html
...contains a good FAQ with some useful links, including a link to
John Wilson's stuff at DBIT.
I'm also appending here a file with some informative messages on the
subject. I had this file stored away with a bunch of Venix images for
the Pro. I don't remember if this file (RX50.notes) came with the
Venix stuff, or if I collected them together myself. I'm pretty sure
it's the former, but I couldn't find any links to it by searching the
net. Anyway, here it is...
>From barry(a)chezmoto.ai.mit.edu Tue Aug 4 08:14:38 1992
>From: barry(a)chezmoto.ai.mit.edu (Barry Kort)
>Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro
>Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC
>Date: 2 Aug 92 11:53:41 GMT
>Organization: MicroMuse
>In-reply-to: keithr(a)garfield.cs.mun.ca's message of 1 Aug 92 01:10:53 GMT
>
>I use the RX50DRVR on my AT which allows my 1.2 MB drive to read RX50
>diskettes. What this does is to create a new driveletter (F:) which
>spins the HD drive as if it were an RX50 drive.
>
>RX50DRVR does not know anything about the directory structure on
>the disks. If I do 'dir F:' it assumes DOS directory structure,
>which works fine on Rainbow diskettes, since they use the DOS
>directory structure.
>
>To read RT11 formatted diskettes, there is a utility called RT11
>which groks the RT11 file structure. I have not yet found a similar
>utility which handles the RMS-11 file structure of the PRO 3xx series.
>
>I can use Norton Utilities with RX50DRVR to examine the RX50 diskette
>in the F: drive, but then I am accessing the diskette sector by sector,
>not by logical file.
>
>I haven't explored the new utilities from the gentlemen in the Former
>Soviet Union who have announced some DOS environment tools for
>manipulating RX50 diskettes.
>
>Using RX50DRVR in combination with the RT11 utility program, I can
>low-level format a blank HD diskette as an RX50 diskette, then
>put it in the PRO and do a high-level RMS-11 style Initialization.
>This allows me to create new RX50 diskettes out of plain old unformatted
>or recycled 1.2 MB HD diskettes.
>
>Using Venix on the PRO, I can do a raw image copy of a diskette in one
>drive to a blank diskette in another drive. (This kind of copy will fail
>if the target diskette has any bad sectors, since there is no attempt
>to rearrange sectors to detour around any bad blocks.)
>
>Finally, by hooking up the PRO to a Unix or DOS machine via the
>COM port (or to a Unix host via Ethernet/DECnet if you have a DECNA
>card), you can transfer files via any number of techniques, ranging
>>from straight ASCII upload/capture using ordinary terminal emulators,
>Kermit file transfers if you have Kermit on both machines, or by
>DECnet file transfer using NFT or dcp utilities.
>
>None of this is particularly trivial to implement, but the bottom
>line is that there are many ways to pull files off RX50 diskettes
>and transfer them to Unix or DOS machines.
>
>Barry Kort
>
>From cosc16to(a)menudo.uh.edu Tue Aug 4 08:14:48 1992
>From: cosc16to(a)menudo.uh.edu (Andy Hakim)
>Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro
>Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC
>Date: 2 Aug 92 19:45:22 GMT
>Organization: University of Houston
>X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
>
>barry(a)chezmoto.ai.mit.edu (Barry Kort) writes:
>:
>: Using RX50DRVR in combination with the RT11 utility program, I can
>: low-level format a blank HD diskette as an RX50 diskette, then
>: put it in the PRO and do a high-level RMS-11 style Initialization.
>: This allows me to create new RX50 diskettes out of plain old unformatted
>: or recycled 1.2 MB HD diskettes.
>:
>: Using Venix on the PRO, I can do a raw image copy of a diskette in one
>: drive to a blank diskette in another drive. (This kind of copy will fail
>: if the target diskette has any bad sectors, since there is no attempt
>: to rearrange sectors to detour around any bad blocks.)
>
>
>Another method of obtaining a formatted disk for the Pro-3xx, is to
>use an image copy program called Teledisk (shareware) for the PC. Not only
>does this program allow you to do a disk-to-disk copy, but it can also
>store a disk into a file (on the PC). This way, it is possible to keep an
>image file of a blank P/OS formatted disk, and then crank out new copies
>easily.
>
>In my experience, low density disks (360k) on a high density (1.2m) AT class
>drives seem to work out best.
>
>-andy
>
>From lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu Tue Aug 4 08:14:56 1992
>From: lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
>Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro
>Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC
>Date: 3 Aug 92 06:39:56 GMT
>Reply-To: lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
>Organization: Columbia University
>Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu
>
>In article <1992Aug2.194522.18244(a)menudo.uh.edu> cosc16to(a)menudo.uh.edu (Andy Hakim) writes:
>>
>>Another method of obtaining a formatted disk for the Pro-3xx, is to
>>use an image copy program called Teledisk (shareware) for the PC. Not only
>>does this program allow you to do a disk-to-disk copy, but it can also
>>store a disk into a file (on the PC). This way, it is possible to keep an
>>image file of a blank P/OS formatted disk, and then crank out new copies
>>easily.
>
>Where can I obtain Teledisk? Does it require any low-level preformatting
>of the media on the target?
>
>IF you use DR-DOS and RAINDOS (but not RX50DRVR) you can use DISKCOPY and
>DISKCOMP to copy RX50 MS-DOS diskettes to each other, or to files on the
>hard disk:
>
>DISKCOPY E: C:\RX50DISK.IMG
>
>DISKCOPY E: E:
>
>DISKCOPY C:\RX50DISK.IMG E:
>
>DISKCOMP E: C:\RX50DISK.IMG
>
>When writing the file or disk image onto a target disk, the diskette has to
>be already formatted as a low-level RX50, yet there are no high-level
>considerations, so non-DOS RX50's can be directly used as targets!
>
>Of course input diskettes have to already be MS-DOS RX50 DECmate II/Rainbow
>diskettes because of DOS restrictions.
>
>Note that DOS 5 cannot do anything but "standard" disk sizes, and can't
>copy disk images to files at all.
>
>>
>>In my experience, low density disks (360k) on a high density (1.2m) AT class
>>drives seem to work out best.
>
>And without hub rings is better. If you suspect that a disk is actually
>high-density when it has no hub rings, there is a simple test:
>
>Just format it as a normal 1.2 Meg disk. a low-density diskette will get
>hundreds of Kbytes in bad sectors, while a HD diskette will get little or
>no errors, thus proving it unsuitable for RX50 purposes. Most disks with
>hub rings are already clearly low-density, but after you remove them, this
>will prove a quick check for actual diskette formulation.
>
>cjl
>
>From cosc16to(a)menudo.uh.edu Tue Aug 4 08:15:02 1992
>From: cosc16to(a)menudo.uh.edu (Andy Hakim)
>Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro
>Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC
>Date: 3 Aug 92 16:42:35 GMT
>Organization: University of Houston
>X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
>
>lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) writes:
>:
>: Where can I obtain Teledisk? Does it require any low-level preformatting
>: of the media on the target?
>:
>I checked the ftp site "wuarchive.wustle.edu", it is in directory
>"mirrors2/msdos/dskutl" as file "teled212.zip".
>
>Nope, this one does not require any low level preformatting. It's possible
>to stick in a brand new ds/dd and let it go. Incidently, teledisk is
>made by the same people, Sydex, who make 22disk.
>
>-andy
>
>From cosc16to(a)menudo.uh.edu Tue Aug 4 08:15:11 1992
>From: cosc16to(a)menudo.uh.edu (Andy Hakim)
>Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro
>Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC
>Date: 3 Aug 92 16:54:30 GMT
>Organization: University of Houston
>X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
>
>: I checked the ftp site "wuarchive.wustle.edu", it is in directory
>: "mirrors2/msdos/dskutl" as file "teled212.zip".
>
>Correction, it's spelled "wuarchive.wustl.edu" with a missing 'e'.
>
>Host nic.switch.ch (130.59.1.40)
> Location: /mirror/msdos/dskutl
> FILE rw-rw-r-- 93805 Dec 23 1990 teled212.zip
>
>Host ftp.uu.net (137.39.1.9)
> Location: /systems/msdos/simtel20/dskutl
> FILE rw-r--r-- 93805 Dec 22 1990 teled212.zip
>
>Host wuarchive.wustl.edu (128.252.135.4)
> Location: /mirrors3/garbo.uwasa.fi/diskutil
> FILE rw-rw-r-- 94075 Dec 11 1990 teled212.zip
> Location: /mirrors/msdos/dskutl
> FILE rw-r--r-- 93805 Dec 23 1990 teled212.zip
>
>archie>
>
>From lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu Tue Aug 4 08:15:17 1992
>From: lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
>Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro
>Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC
>Date: 4 Aug 92 05:55:11 GMT
>Reply-To: lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
>Organization: Columbia University
>Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu
>
>In article <1992Aug3.164235.1187(a)menudo.uh.edu> cosc16to(a)menudo.uh.edu (Andy Hakim) writes:
>>lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) writes:
>>:
>>: Where can I obtain Teledisk? Does it require any low-level preformatting
>>: of the media on the target?
>>:
>>I checked the ftp site "wuarchive.wustle.edu", it is in directory
>>"mirrors2/msdos/dskutl" as file "teled212.zip".
>>
>>Nope, this one does not require any low level preformatting. It's possible
>>to stick in a brand new ds/dd and let it go. Incidently, teledisk is
>>made by the same people, Sydex, who make 22disk.
>>
>>-andy
>
>Sydex also makes RAINDOS.
>
>I suspect that teledisk will only make sector-compatible descendents though,
>so if I have a specially layed-out version of a diskette (such as 2:1
>interleave or staggered, etc.) the descendent will lose that aspect of
>optimization, and will instead become "vanilla" RX50 format in the
>case of RX50 diskette.
>
>The point is that certain software, especially for DECmates not specifically
>geared to CP/M-80, and *any* bootable DECmate diskette (including CP/M-80) the
>format used in stock RX50 layout is non-optimal. There are different
>requirements for different specific applications, but just as on PC's, the
>use of non-interleaved non-staggered disks can be demonstrated to be
>inferior to a variant in terms of sector ordering at the low format level.
>
>Rainbow MS-DOS disks have an implied software interleave of 2:1 for the
>FAT area, and 1:1 in the rest; this is in software, so the standard disk
>layout should be maintained, except that the *stagger* is not taken into
>account. Thus, like a PC, Rainbow MS-DOS disks should be formatted with a
>stagger of 2 per track. Thus track 1 is layed out 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 and
>track 2 is layed out 9,10,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8. When the disk seeks from track 1
>to track 2, it will thus miss 9 and 10, but immediately find 1. Were the
>stagger not there, it would miss 1 and 2, and reject 3,4,5,6,7,8,9 while
>waiting for 1 to come around again. Thus staggering relieves rotational
>latency.
>
>For the DECmate, there are two additional problems:
>
>All bootable diskettes require the logically sequential reading of tracks
>78, 79 in the order 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10. But the RX
>interface of the DECmate can't perform 1:1 interleave ever, so this is
>anti-optimal not only in stagger but more importantly in interleave. Thus,
>this area of the disk should be formatted with an interleave of 2:1 as well
>as a stagger of 2. Thus the disk is layed out:
>
>track 78: 1,6,2,7,3,8,4,9,5,10
>track 79: 5,10,1,6,2,7,3,8,4,9
>
>This restriction is based on the ROM routines that read in this area in linear
>order. This is mostly why all DECmates take so long to boot up! Changing to
>a better sector order will chop seconds out of the boot time.
>
>Further, all systems other than CP/M-80 require some form of help, mostly
>applying the stagger that helps the Rainbow as well (again other than CP/M).
>For DECmate MS-DOS, tracks 0-3 should be in 1-1 interleave because the software
>already maps the disk in 2:1 usage. tracks 4-79 should be formatted 2:1
>interleave to help out the RX interface when the Rainbow-optimal ordering
>is invoked (similar to the DECmate ROM access, and just as inefficient on
>a DECmate).
>
>OS/278 does a software 2:1 interleave, so the only help needed is a
>disk-wide stagger factor of 2.
>
>Note that RT-11 and all other -11-oriented disks should use stock format only
>because this superior software maps all sectors to include both the 2-1
>interleave and stagger of 2 already.
>
>So, if Teledisk is a *really* good utility, it won't disturb the format's
>stagger and interleave as it copies the disks!
>
>cjl
>
>From lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu Tue Aug 4 08:15:23 1992
>From: lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
>Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro
>Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC
>Date: 3 Aug 92 05:39:27 GMT
>Reply-To: lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
>Organization: Columbia University
>Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu
>
>In article <BARRY.92Aug2075341(a)chezmoto.ai.mit.edu> barry(a)chezmoto.ai.mit.edu (Barry Kort) writes:
>>I use the RX50DRVR on my AT which allows my 1.2 MB drive to read RX50
>>diskettes. What this does is to create a new driveletter (F:) which
>>spins the HD drive as if it were an RX50 drive.
>
>RX50DRVR, like RAINDOS, creates a new logical drive past your last existent
>drive, so it's F: for you because you apparently have an A: through E: before
>the driver gets loaded in CONFIG.SYS.
>
>>
>>RX50DRVR does not know anything about the directory structure on
>>the disks. If I do 'dir F:' it assumes DOS directory structure,
>>which works fine on Rainbow diskettes, since they use the DOS
>>directory structure.
>
>That's not quite true, since the disk organization has to be DOS as implemented
>on DECmate II MSDOS/Rainbow MS-DOS only. It is true only in the sense that
>you can make your own BIOS calls to read the disks yourself without caring
>about the significence. But that's no different from doing so with any
>floppy on a PC.
>
>>
>>To read RT11 formatted diskettes, there is a utility called RT11
>>which groks the RT11 file structure. I have not yet found a similar
>>utility which handles the RMS-11 file structure of the PRO 3xx series.
>
>Where can I get this RT11 utility? It sounds useful. Does it specifically
>require/recognize the RX50DRVR or does it merely work in an innocuous way
>with the same drive letter? (Would it work also with A:? or must it have
>RX50DRVR present. If so, would it work with RAINDOS as an alternative?)
>
>>
>>I can use Norton Utilities with RX50DRVR to examine the RX50 diskette
>>in the F: drive, but then I am accessing the diskette sector by sector,
>>not by logical file.
>>
>>I haven't explored the new utilities from the gentlemen in the Former
>>Soviet Union who have announced some DOS environment tools for
>>manipulating RX50 diskettes.
>
>Re the Soviet-originating files:
>
>The files come with a piece of shareware originating in Italy that intercepts
>DOS's calls for formatting commands, so that "odd" sizes, such as using:
>FORMAT A: /T:80 /N:10 are now legal. The result is a double-sided disk that
>is quite suitably low-level formatted for RX50, but the high-level is PC
>compatible, *not* DECmate/Rainbow's idea of MS-DOS, and specifically must be
>used on a "normal" drive and *not* with RX50DRVR. All media indicators are
>stock PC-type, not RX50. However, since the low-level is now correct, and
>errors are recorded in a way that FORMAT indicated when it finished, and can
>be re-confirmed with CHKDSK, etc., the media can be determined to be error-
>free hopefully. If so, then the companion program RX50INIT that comes with
>RX50DRVR can be used to initialize the directory so DECmate/Rainbow MS-DOS
>likes the disk, and of course the RX50DRVR-controlled logical device such as
>F: in your example. Note also that RX50INIT can be used with RAINDOS as well.
>Also, RX50INIT requires ANSI.SYS be loaded purely for cosmetic reasons.
>RX50DRVR and RX50INIT were designed for DOS 3.3 usage. They don't support the
>extensions to DOS brought into versions 4 and 5, so there are some problems.
>RX50INIT fails totally in those two systems, and CHKDSK can't work there
>either. With some adjustment to the BUFFERS= statement in CONFIG.SYS, they
>can be made to work for read/write purposes under DOS 4 or 5.
>
>
>When used with DR-DOS 6.0, all RX50DRVR and RX50INIT functions work fine.
>
>
>>
>>Using RX50DRVR in combination with the RT11 utility program, I can
>>low-level format a blank HD diskette as an RX50 diskette, then
>>put it in the PRO and do a high-level RMS-11 style Initialization.
>>This allows me to create new RX50 diskettes out of plain old unformatted
>>or recycled 1.2 MB HD diskettes.
>
>Just a word about using HD media:
>
>You can't reliably use HD media on an actual RX50, because the coercivity
>is too far off in HD media. It was designed for the higher-frequency
>recording of the "real" 1.2 Meg format (500 KHz) and not the 250 KHz recording
>rate of the RX50, which is actually the same as good 'ol DS/DD media (360K
>kid of media). Some revisions of RX50 drive in comination with certain RX
>controllers in some DEC machins fare better than others, but it can be
>demonstrated that a lot of combinations don't particularly "like" HD
>media.
>
>The designated media for RX50 is Maxell MD1DD-RX50 or equivalent, which is
>what used to be called "quad" media. This is well-honed low-density media,
>so it is rated for use on 96 TPI (80 track) drives, not just 48 TPI (40 track)
>drives as is usual. Note that MD2D is not MD2DD. (The 2 just means two-sided
>which for all intents and purposes today can be ignored; virtuall *all* media
>is actually made double-sided :-).) The DD means 80-track support, but since
>most media are made well-honed, most cheap disks can support 80 tracks anyway.
>These disks will *not* cause I/O errors on any RX50! However, long-term usage
>requires the hub rings be removed completely (use alcohol to get the sticky
>stuff off, or ask your supplier for no-hub disks!). Failing to remove
>hub rings means eventually the disks will get unreliable sooner than they
>ought to due to registration problems. All 96 TPI disks have this problem.
>Note that MD2HD and MD1DD don't have hub rings! It is rumored that there is
>a "premium" line of diskettes from Fuji apart from their standard line of
>inexpensive diskettes that has a specially reinforced hub area, that isn't
>a hub ring per se. If the same mechanism is used in both HD and DD media,
>then the DD type would be the best thing today to use with impunity for
>RX50. Clearly the MD1DD or MD2DD or MD1DD or the 3M equivalents are too
>expensive, considering that what we want are the cheapest types of diskettes
>with the hub rings never added. (We don't want to pay more for less!)
>
>Re RT-11 utility:
>
>I don't know anything about the RT11 utility program, but RX50DRVR cannot
>format disks; the code lacks support for the FORMAT command, and also some
>calls needed by both CHKDSK and FORMAT. Attempts to use either on DOS 4
>or 5 will get error messages. Even on 3.3, where CHKDSK is more "forgiving"
>you still get the message about "format not supported on device" when
>using RX50DRVR. So, if your claim for formatting is true, the RT11 utility
>must contain low-level formatting code of its own, and perhaps only needs
>RX50DRVR to locate the proper device?
>
>RAINDOS is a share-ware mostly superset of RX50DRVR, and it totally supports
>CHKDSK and FORMAT in DOS 4 and 5. It works fine with RX50INIT (assuming that
>RX50INIT can work!) and suffers from only two known problems:
>
>1) Should you specify a format command with the FORMAT F: command,
>and the O/S is DR-DOS 6, then if it really does attempt a low-level format,
>it gets a cryptic error message and fails. Note that MS-DOS 5 and DR-DOS 6
>will always attempt a "quick" format if possible, unless over-ridden. This
>case of a quick format doesn't fail, but also isn't formatting! Just
>rewriting a cleaned-up high-level format directory initialize.
>
>2) It is sometimes strangely slow, as compared to RX50DRVR where both
>could work. When using Norton 4.5's DT program, RX50DRVR handles the
>disk at normal speed, and allows DT to mark bad clusters (if any) quite
>nicely. When RAINDOS is used, it causes many recalibrates for unknown
>reasons. In some cases, the sloth isn't that noticeable, but this is a
>sore point usage.
>
>Otherwise, RAINDOS is a total replacement for RX50DRVR, or so it would seem.
>Norton NU treats RX50DRVR diskettes and RAINDOS diskettes equally since it
>does one-sector I/O.
>
>>
>>Using Venix on the PRO, I can do a raw image copy of a diskette in one
>>drive to a blank diskette in another drive. (This kind of copy will fail
>>if the target diskette has any bad sectors, since there is no attempt
>>to rearrange sectors to detour around any bad blocks.)
>>
>>Finally, by hooking up the PRO to a Unix or DOS machine via the
>>COM port (or to a Unix host via Ethernet/DECnet if you have a DECNA
>>card), you can transfer files via any number of techniques, ranging
>>from straight ASCII upload/capture using ordinary terminal emulators,
>>Kermit file transfers if you have Kermit on both machines, or by
>>DECnet file transfer using NFT or dcp utilities.
>>
>>None of this is particularly trivial to implement, but the bottom
>>line is that there are many ways to pull files off RX50 diskettes
>>and transfer them to Unix or DOS machines.
>>
>>Barry Kort
>
>If the Soviet files prove to work, and apparently requiring the Italian
>TSR shareware program, we can probably make Files-11 RX50 diskettes as well.
>I have just received these programs and will be evaluating them when feasible.
>I am still working with the accompanying Italian shareware which has some
>interesting "generic" features of its own with respect to the entire RX50
>issue. I suspect that its presence enhances any of these utilities, although
>it's possible redundant and perhaps extraneous to some of the utilities.
>
>In any case, there are many ways to get files moved around.
>
>Another excellent package is 22DISK from Sydex, the same shareware author
>as RAINDOS. This package low-level formats RX50's in either DECmate CP/M-80
>or Rainbow CP/M-80/86 format. (They are similar, but not identical, although
>they can read each other's disks no sweat; it's a matter of interleave, etc.
>and a throughput issue, not a format per se issue.) It then high-level
>formats the disks for CP/M usage. So, its a good place to do the low-level
>formatting required for all of these other utilities. For example, on
>DR-DOS 6, you first run 22DISK to format the disk, then use RX50INIT to get
>an RX50 MS-DOS DECmate/Rainbow high-level structure, and then can use
>RAINDOS to transfer files, run CHKDSK, and do quick-formats with FORMAT /Q,
>etc. Notice this avoids all of the Raindos/DR-DOS interaction :-).
>
>22DISK can get directory listings of CP/M disks, and can transfer files
>to/from MS-DOS from/to the designated CP/M diskette. It supports literally
>hundreds of CP/M formats, which implies many low and high-level support
>variants. This program is highly reminiscent of the former Rainbow, and
>later PC-based "Media Master" program, but is for PC/MS-DOS only, and
>requires HD drives for the RX50 formats.
>
>I believe there is an obscure PRO option for a CP/M-80 board, so this might
>be yet another way to get files in/out of a PRO.
>
>So, like cats, there are many ways to "skin" an RX50 :-).
>
>cjl
>
>From lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu Tue Aug 4 08:15:29 1992
>From: lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
>Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro
>Subject: Good report on Teledisk.
>Date: 4 Aug 92 07:27:25 GMT
>Reply-To: lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
>Organization: Columbia University
>Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu
>
>I have down-loaded Sydex's teledisk, and have found it to exceed my
>expectations in some useful ways.
>
>For starters, all of my attentions are based on the problems of distributing
>RX50 diskettes not necessarily in stock format, and not yet having any
>satisfactory way of creating the necessary disks.
>
>Background:
>
>There are several desirable variant formats for RX50 that have been discussed
>elsewhere. The only known program to create them is FDFORMAT for PC's. While
>this freeware program is generally quite good, it has a few crucial bugs that
>make it unsuitable for RX50 usage. It is conceivable that this will be
>solved by using some additional/non-standard parameters to FDFORMAT to create
>usable disks, but in any case, the use of all obvious parameters yields disks
>that are flakey on some RX50's, and downright unreadable on others. In
>addition, these disks are so messed up that a DECmate can't even WRITE on the
>disks and read back what it just wrote reliably! Yet, this isn't a media
>problem because it can be demonstrated that the problem disappears by
>low-level format of the same diskette with either Sydex's RAINDOS or 22DISK
>packages. (Note that *some* RX50 systems using some newer-designed controllers
>and/or higher revision drives and/or RX50-compatibility modes on different
>drives have little or no problems with these FDFORMATted diskettes; indeed
>the diskettes are fine on a PC; there's some low-level detail that's incorrect
>about FDFORMATted diskettes. Some parameter is being set to a PC-acceptable
>value that doesn't center on RX50's requirements. Perhaps this will be
>uncovered at a later time obviating this entire discussion. Until such a
>time, FDFORMAT cannot be used to create RX50 diskettes that are readable on
>*all* RX50 systems. FDFORMAT also has a few other operational bugs, such as
>incorrect recognition of certain I/O errors, etc., but these are exception
>cases, and for all other PC purposes, it serves quite admirably.)
>
>The reason why FDFORMAT is desirable is that it is the only known program
>capable of creating the variant RX50 formats where the format must be
>done with interleave and stagger factors, especially if the disk must have
>"zones" where the format changes. For example, to create a disk best suited
>for DECmate OS/278 usage, the following *TWO* commands should be given:
>
>FDFORMAT A: /T:80 /N:10 /1 /Y:2 /I:2
>FDFORMAT A: /T:78 /N:10 /1 /Y:2
>
>The first command creates a disk with an interleave of 2:1 and a stagger of
>2 throughout. The second command changes tracks 0-77 to have 1:1 interleave
>and a stagger of 2 throughout.
>
>When OS/278 is copied onto such a diskette, the "slushware" tracks are read
>in much faster than on standard RX50 diskettes, and all access to the rest of
>the diskette is speeded somewhat because of the stagger factor which overcomes
>the software's lack of stagger mapping. But since the software does map the
>sector order into a 2:1 interleave, the hardware order must stay in 1:1
>interleave sequence.
>
>This would be a nice disk to use for the intended purpose, but many DECmates
>will be unable to read this diskette. Literally, it will get a CRC error
>on *every* sector! Furthermore, if you attempt to write an image of the
>software onto this diskette, it will get a CRC error on *every* sector even
>though it just wrote the disk out!
>
>Enter Teledisk to the rescue!
>
>When I read Teledisk's documentation, I had doubts that it could solve
>this problem, because I noticed it could be quite "smart", perhaps *too*
>smart! It claims that it can get around certain copy-protection methods
>by virtue of how it operates, so I figured that it would likely copy the
>problems of FDFORMAT as well :-(. Or, alternatively, it might guess that
>the diskette was an RX50 and proceed to format it in a stock manner, thus
>destroying the optimization applied by using the two FDFORMAT commands instead
>of just using RAINDOS or 22DISK to create stock low-level RX50 diskettes.
>
>Well, I was wrong on both counts!
>
>Teledisk understands how to maintain sector order, and pointed out the
>change of interleave from 1:1 to 2:1 at track 78, so that problem is
>hurdled.
>
>Teledisk understands that these sectors should be formatted with apparently
>the same parameters as the formatting routines in 22DISK and RAINDOS, so the
>resultant disk *is* readable on DECmates! Of course, this is *not* an
>"exact" copy, but rather it is a "better" copy. Apparently Teledisk only
>writes sectors in a "sane" format, and the copy-protection they refer to
>is the class of "funny" sector ordering, size, or count, not any lower-level
>details. Apparently the Sydex code at work in RAINDOS and 22DISK is also
>within Teledisk, thus since Teledisk recognizes the disk as a 10-sector/track
>512 bytes/sector disk, it writes it as would RAINDOS, etc., except Teledisk
>is sensitive to sector ordering unlike the other Sydex programs, etc.
>
>Thus, the descendent disk is actually *better* than the original. I can now
>therefore distribute diskettes in the intended format for working-copy usage
>of the best effort of each diskette :-).
>
>Additionally, if I modify distribution diskettes to be in their intended
>format instead of their original stock format (virtually all diskettes that
>need to be distributed are in stock RX50 format, because the need to create
>optimal diskette layout is generally newer than the software; indeed, this
>entire effort is to distribute software that performs *better* than the
>original!), then the master disks should be copied with Teledisk to create
>perfect copies in one step.
>
>There are additional advantages:
>
>Teledisk can also create an MS-DOS file that is the image of the diskette
>in either a rudimentary-compressed or advanced-compressed form. These files
>can be transmitted down the net and then reconstructed on PC-AT's for use
>on RX50 targets. Since they are compressed, this minimizes the overhead
>as well, etc.
>
>So, Teledisk has made my day :-).
>
>cjl
>
>From barry(a)chezmoto.ai.mit.edu Wed Aug 5 10:12:06 1992
>From: barry(a)chezmoto.ai.mit.edu (Barry Kort)
>Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro
>Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC
>Date: 4 Aug 92 12:13:30 GMT
>Organization: MicroMuse
>In-reply-to: lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu's message of 3 Aug 92 05:39:27 GMT
>
>Charles,
>
>You can retreive rt11.zip by anonymous ftp from
>newton.canterbury.ac.nz, 132.181.40.1, in the pub/local directory.
>
>Barry
>
>From lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu Wed Aug 5 10:12:14 1992
>From: lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
>Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro
>Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC
>Date: 4 Aug 92 18:41:23 GMT
>Reply-To: lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
>Organization: Columbia University
>Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu
>
>In article <BARRY.92Aug4081330(a)chezmoto.ai.mit.edu>
>arry(a)chezmoto.ai.mit.edu (Barry Kort) writes:
>
>>Charles,
>
>>You can retreive rt11.zip by anonymous ftp from
>>newton.canterbury.ac.nz, 132.181.40.1, in the pub/local directory.
>
>>Barry
>
>Got it. It looks nice. It produces what appears to be a nice RT-11-like
>environment on a PC for file transfers, etc., but is inferior to Teledisk
>for the purpose of making a compacted image of an entire disk as a DOS
>file. Since this is a frill, it can be completely overlooked :-).
>
>And yes, it does Format DD-type media to stock RX50 as advertised. I will
>only take you to task on the minor point: it doesn't require RX50DRVR at all.
>There was a little confusion as to whether they were tied together, which is
>not the case.
>
>This program is written in Turbo Pascal. It would seem that someone who
>can understand enough TP and the quirky code to call BIOS routines should
>incorporate some of RT11.PAS into FDFORMAT (also a TP-based item) since
>the format routine works fine while FDFORMAT does not for RX50 as discussed
>elsewhere.
>
>Overall a nice program.
>
>cjl
>
>
>
>
>
--
entropy -- it's not just a good idea, it's the second law.
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To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Cc: rblair(a)webteksdesign.com, wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] 2.11 BSD image booting
References: <200007250300.UAA22851(a)moe.2bsd.com>
From: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org>
Date: 25 Jul 2000 07:55:00 +0200
In-Reply-To: "Steven M. Schultz"'s message of "Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:00:06 -0700 (PDT)"
Message-ID: <858zuq21qj.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org>
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"Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> writes:
> > From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
> > I think all the 2.11BSD disk images in Boot_Images are suspect.
> Hmmm, I don't think they're corrupt.
I use the 2.11_rp_unknown (Current Patch Level: 400, Date: January 24,
1998) image without any problems. Well, I didn't know the root
password, so I had to erase it in single user mode.
> Wasn't there a similar posting a month or two ago about someone (I
> forget who it was) having "massive corruption". It turned out that
> the simulator was only told to use 256kb of memory (18bit mode). Once
> the "set cpu 2048k" command was added to the conf file the problems
> cleared right up.
That was probably me.
> Try putting "set cpu 2048k" (I don't _think_ you need both "set cpu
> 22b" and "set cpu 2048k" but having both doesn't hurt and may help).
This is the script I use:
set cpu 22b
set cpu 3072K
at rp0 2.11_rp_unknown
at rl0 x.tar
b rp
I should mention that "at rl0 ..." also doesn't work:
sim> at rl0 /users/vandys/tmp/v7/v7_rl02_1145
sim> b rl0
@/
@/
HALT instruction, PC: 000002 (HALT)
sim>
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>From Andy Valencia <vandys(a)zendo.com> Mon Jul 24 00:03:02 2000
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To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: [pups] UNIX V7 11/45 image booting
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 07:03:02 -0700
From: Andy Valencia <vandys(a)zendo.com>
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I'm trying to boot the image v7_rl02_1145 from sim_2.3d, and get:
PDP-11 simulator V2.3d
sim> at rl02 /users/vandys/tmp/v7/v7_rl02_1145
sim> b rl02
@
I can type things to the '@' prompt, but it never does anything unless I
type '/', at which point it bombs back to the emulator. My scan of the
documentation for bootstraps doesn't point out any state with an '@'
prompt... help?
I can't tell you how many years it's been since I've had access to an '11
running V7. Looking forward to it!
Thanks,
Andy Valencia
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Mon Jul 24 08:22:52 2000
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: Re: [pups] UNIX V7 11/45 image booting
In-Reply-To: <200007231403.HAA00392(a)vandys-pc.zendo.com> from Andy Valencia at
"Jul 23, 2000 07:03:02 am"
To: Andy Valencia <vandys(a)zendo.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 08:22:52 +1000 (EST)
CC: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
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In article by Andy Valencia:
> I'm trying to boot the image v7_rl02_1145 from sim_2.3d, and get:
>
> PDP-11 simulator V2.3d
> sim> at rl02 /users/vandys/tmp/v7/v7_rl02_1145
> sim> b rl02
> @
>
> I can type things to the '@' prompt, but it never does anything...
> Andy Valencia
At the bottom of simh_doc.txt in the Supnik emulator sources, it says:
UNIX V7 is contained on a single RL02 disk image. To boot UNIX:
sim> set cpu 18b
sim> set rl0 RL02
sim> att rl0 unix_v7_rl.dsk
sim> boot rl0
@boot
New Boot, known devices are hp ht rk rl rp tm vt
: rl(0,0)rl2unix
#
A smaller image is contained on a single RK05 disk image. To boot UNIX:
sim> set cpu 18b
sim> att rk0 unix_v7_rk.dsk
sim> boot rk0
@boot
New Boot, known devices are hp ht rk rl rp tm vt
: rk(0,0)rkunix
# STTY -LCASE
#
Hope this helps!
Cheers,
Warren
In a big batch of 9-tracks and RL01 packs rescued this morning, I have
two tapes, one labeled
AT&T
** 66938 **
UNIX OPERATING SYSTEM FOR
WRITERS WORKBENCH SOFTWARE
TPname: LOAD PGM FOR PDP 11/70
the other labeled
AT&T
** 66611 **
UNIX OPERATING SYSTEM
WRITERS WORKBENCH SOFTWARE
TPname: LOAD PGM FOR VAX 11/780 11/750
Both have copyright dates of 1984. You can see scans of the original
labels (high-res scans, they're big files!) at
http://www.trailing-edge.com/www/wwtapes/
I won't be able to make binary copies of these until this evening, but does
anyone know where these tapes fit into the scheme of AT&T stuff? i.e.
are these custom-built SYS III and SYS V systems? Is the PDP-11/70 tape
perhaps eligible for inclusion in the PUPS archive under the SCO license?
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
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>From Cuenta para lectura de e-mail <cjd(a)sunmexico.sun.com> Tue Jul 11 08:54:53 2000
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Subject: Re: [pups] AT&T Unix Operating System for Writers Workbench Software?
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I believe WWB was an offshoot or derivative of PWB, the Programmer's Workbench,
which was a special version of V6. I think WWB was where "pic" first showed
up. PWB was, I think V6 with a few extra utilities added. WWB may be the same.
- Chris
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>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Tue Jul 11 09:51:19 2000
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Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 19:51:19 -0400
From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
Message-Id: <000710195119.202002e2(a)trailing-edge.com>
Subject: Re: [pups] AT&T Unix Operating System for Writers Workbench Software?
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>I believe WWB was an offshoot or derivative of PWB, the Programmer's Workbench,
>which was a special version of V6. I think WWB was where "pic" first showed
>up. PWB was, I think V6 with a few extra utilities added. WWB may be the same.
I don't think what I've found here is that major. It starts
with a Makefile:
# NOTICE-NOT TO BE DISCLOSED OUTSIDE BELL SYS EXCEPT UNDER WRITTEN AGRMT
# Makefile: Writer's Workbench system version 2.0.1.10, 5/26/83
# makefile for the WRITER'S WORKBENCH SYSTEM
# This package includes over 30 programs that suggest improvements
# to written documents, including improved versions of the
# Style and Diction programs as well as many more writing aids.
and the README says:
This file gives instructions for building and installing the Writer's
Workbench system source code. This information is also contained
in the document "UNIX(TM) Writer's Workbench Software Installation
and Administration Guide."
These particular tapes have been stored in absolutely horrible conditions
(pretty much kept in an outdoors storage shed during both winter and summer for
the past decade) and I'm going to have to bake and/or lubricate them before I
make a not-half-assed attempt at recovering them. The PDP11/70 tape is
particularly bad (it actually broke when I was just loading it into
the drive!) and it may be a goner.
I don't see any obvious mentions of 'pic' in what I read so far.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
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>From Grant Maizels <grant.maizels(a)cogita.com.au> Tue Jul 11 10:21:30 2000
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From: Grant Maizels <grant.maizels(a)cogita.com.au>
To: "'Tim Shoppa'" <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>, PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
Subject: RE: [pups] AT&T Unix Operating System for Writers Workbench Softw
are?
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 10:21:30 +1000
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Tim,
Writers Work Bench was an extension to the basic troff/nroff tools developed
earlier, but took new directions. It included a whole lot of new programs
like diction (a grammar checker??) which were more to do with the content
than the formatting. I think that pic was developed separately by bwk for a
research version. I have never used WWB but I have some documentation on it
somewhere at home. I believe that it was sold with source as an add on for
various Unicies.
Grant Maizels
grant(a)maizels.nu
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Shoppa [mailto:SHOPPA@trailing-edge.com]
Sent: Tuesday, 11 July 2000 9:51
To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
Subject: Re: [pups] AT&T Unix Operating System for Writers Workbench
Software?
>I believe WWB was an offshoot or derivative of PWB, the Programmer's
Workbench,
>which was a special version of V6. I think WWB was where "pic" first
showed
>up. PWB was, I think V6 with a few extra utilities added. WWB may be the
same.
I don't think what I've found here is that major. It starts
with a Makefile:
# NOTICE-NOT TO BE DISCLOSED OUTSIDE BELL SYS EXCEPT UNDER WRITTEN AGRMT
# Makefile: Writer's Workbench system version 2.0.1.10, 5/26/83
# makefile for the WRITER'S WORKBENCH SYSTEM
# This package includes over 30 programs that suggest improvements
# to written documents, including improved versions of the
# Style and Diction programs as well as many more writing aids.
and the README says:
This file gives instructions for building and installing the Writer's
Workbench system source code. This information is also contained
in the document "UNIX(TM) Writer's Workbench Software Installation
and Administration Guide."
These particular tapes have been stored in absolutely horrible conditions
(pretty much kept in an outdoors storage shed during both winter and summer
for
the past decade) and I'm going to have to bake and/or lubricate them before
I
make a not-half-assed attempt at recovering them. The PDP11/70 tape is
particularly bad (it actually broke when I was just loading it into
the drive!) and it may be a goner.
I don't see any obvious mentions of 'pic' in what I read so far.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
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>From Tim Shoppa [mailto:SHOPPA@trailing-edge.com] Tue Jul 11 12:12:45 2000
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Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 22:12:45 -0400
To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
From: Kevin Schoedel <schoedel(a)kw.igs.net>
Subject: [pups] RE: AT&T Unix Operating System for Writers Workbench Softw are?
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On 2000/07/11 at 10:21am +1000, Grant Maizels
<grant.maizels(a)cogita.com.au> wrote:
>Writers Work Bench was an extension to the basic troff/nroff tools developed
>earlier, but took new directions. It included a whole lot of new programs
>like diction (a grammar checker??) which were more to do with the content
>than the formatting. I think that pic was developed separately by bwk for a
>research version. I have never used WWB but I have some documentation on it
>somewhere at home. I believe that it was sold with source as an add on for
>various Unicies.
I have a little documentation here, mostly three papers from BSTJ vol. 62
no. 6, July/August 1983. It did contain -- as the makefile says --
'diction' (basically a search for 'bad' phrases), 'style' (which
generated readabilty and other statistics for text), 'punct' (a basic
punctuation checker), and a handful of other similar programs.
Importantly for the PUPS archive, I'm pretty certain that AT&T retained
ownership of WWB when it sold UNIX, so it wouldn't be covered by the SCO
license. I have no idea who owns it now.
'pic', along with troff and such, was in *Documenter's* Workbench.
--
Kevin Schoedel
schoedel(a)kw.igs.net
I just (yesterday) aquired a microPDP 11/73 -- it had been used by my
school to operate some sort of geological test equipment that is no
longer present, and was working when it went out of service, who knows
how long ago.
She has a pair of RX02s, an RD52a inside her case, and that's all I've
determined so far, since I haven't opened her up, really, yet.
I'm interested in documentation on monitor commands, what the boot
sequence should look like, and other such software stuff right now.
I'm also wondering about useful things like: `Is the part number in a
standard location on each card', `What is the form factor difference
between Q-bus and Unibus', `Will starting her up trip the breaker', and
`How much space is there in that little rackmount'
In the near future, I'd like to find ethernet and SCSI adaptors for her,
and so am wondering where parts might be aquired.
Thanks,
Suika (very happy)
--
ssfr(a)unm.edu
The computer is not mightier than a cup of coffee, or other liquid, or a young
school age child with a tool box... --L. E. Waltz
<a href="http://www.unm.edu/~ssfr/">Suika no homepage</a>
I'm maybe going to acquire an 11/23. It looks like this is kind of
small for running v7 and/or 2.11 as it has no split I/D (it does have
an MMU in it but only an 18-bit one I think).
How similar is the physical hardware (card cage I mean really) of this
to things like 11/73,11/83? I'm wondering if I might one day be able
to acquire a card-set from something bigger and install it in the same
rack, my logic being that cards are a lot easier to get from far away
than racks, and this machine is only a few miles away.
Thanks
--tim
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>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Sat Jul 1 21:00:37 2000
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Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 7:00:37 -0400
From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
Message-Id: <000701070037.262009c5(a)trailing-edge.com>
Subject: Re: [pups] 11/23 and other qbus machines
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>I'm maybe going to acquire an 11/23. It looks like this is kind of
>small for running v7 and/or 2.11 as it has no split I/D (it does have
>an MMU in it but only an 18-bit one I think).
Yeah, perhaps the best choice here would be the set of RL02's I found with
a V6 system on RL02 packs. Hook up a RLV11 or a RLV12, a couple of
RL02 drives, and you're in business.
>How similar is the physical hardware (card cage I mean really) of this
>to things like 11/73,11/83? I'm wondering if I might one day be able
>to acquire a card-set from something bigger and install it in the same
>rack, my logic being that cards are a lot easier to get from far away
>than racks, and this machine is only a few miles away.
It's very similar, but it's also rather likely that the card cage that your
11/23 comes in will only support 18-bit bus addresses. If you want
to run 2.11BSD that's not really enough memory. For some
details about what Q-bus hardware supports 18-bit stuff and what
Q-bus hardware supports 22-bit stuff, please look at your Micronotes,
specifically #5, _Q22 Compatible Options_. If you aren't lucky enough
to own a set, you can browse them at
http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/microno…
In large part, it's impossible to specify a PDP-11 as a "PDP-11/23" and
know with any certainty what any single part of it is. There's much
more to a system than the CPU (and note there are several very different
CPU boards sold as 11/23's), you also have to consider backplane, memory,
and disk/tape storage. It'd be nice if Warren linked to some not-on-
Minnie resources for these subjects important to many PUPS members (hint hint,
nudge nudge!)
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Sat Jul 1 21:11:44 2000
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: [pups] Re: PDP-11 ptrs on minnie
In-Reply-To: <000701070037.262009c5(a)trailing-edge.com> from Tim Shoppa at "Jul 1, 2000 7: 0:37 am"
To: SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 21:11:44 +1000 (EST)
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In article by Tim Shoppa:
> It'd be nice if Warren linked to some not-on-
> Minnie resources for these subjects important to many PUPS members (hint hint,
> nudge nudge!)
Send me the URLs & tell me where on http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS
you'd like to see them :-)
Warren
OK, I think I'm figuring out how to install Unix System III on a
11/45. In particular, I mount the first tape on a MT tape drive, get
a RP04 up and spinning, and boot from tape:
UNIX tape boot loader
UNIX -- Initial Load: Tape-to-Disk
The type of disk drive on which the Root file system will reside,
as well as the type of tape drive that will be used for Tape 1
must be specified below.
Answer the questions with a 'y' or 'n' followed by
a carriage return or line feed.
There is no type-ahead -- wait for the question to complete.
The character '@' will kill the entire line,
while the character '#' will erase the last character typed.
RP03 at address 176710?: n
RP04/5/6 at address 176700?: y
Drive number (0-7)?: 0
Disk drive 0 selected.
Mount a formatted pack on drive 0.
Ready?: y
TU10/TM11 at address 172520?: y
Drive number (0-7)?: 0
Tape drive 0 selected.
The tape on drive 0 will be read from the current position
at 800bpi, 5120 characters (10 blocks) per record,
and written onto the pack on drive 0 starting at block 0.
Ready?: y
Size of filesystem to be copied is 6000 blocks.
What is the pack volume label? (e.g. p0001): p0001
The pack will be labelled p0001.
The boot block for your type of disk drive will now be installed.
The file system copy is now complete.
To boot the basic unix for your disk and tape drives
as indicated above, mount this pack on drive 0
and read in the boot block (block 0) using
whatever means you have available; see romboot(8), 70boot(8).
Then boot the program unixhptm using diskboot(8).
Normally: #0=unixhptm
The system will initially come up single-user; see init(8).
If you have an upper case only console terminal,
you must execute: stty lcase; see stty(1).
After UNIX is up, link the file unixhptm to unix using ln(1).
# ln /unixhptm /unix
Set the date(1).
Good Luck!
The tape will now be rewound.
[Now I boot from the RP04]:
#0=unixhptm
UNIX/3.0.1: unixhptm
real mem = 253952 bytes
avail mem = 187584 bytes
unix
single-user
# ls -l
total 805
drwxr-xr-x 2 root sys 32 Feb 15 1979 bck
drwxrwxr-x 2 bin bin 1312 Dec 15 1981 bin
drwxr-xr-x 2 root sys 528 Dec 15 1981 dev
drwxr-xr-x 3 root sys 1056 Oct 26 14:57 etc
drwxrwxr-x 2 bin bin 272 Dec 15 1981 lib
drwxrwxrwx 2 bin bin 32 May 31 1980 lost+found
drwxr-xr-x 2 root sys 32 Feb 15 1979 mnt
drwxrwxr-x 3 bin bin 368 Dec 15 1981 stand
-rwxrwxr-x 1 sys sys 51382 Nov 9 1982 unixhpht
-rwxrwxr-x 1 sys sys 50778 Sep 3 1980 unixhptm
-rwxrwxr-x 1 sys sys 49380 Sep 3 1980 unixrkht
-rwxrwxr-x 1 sys sys 48782 Sep 3 1980 unixrktm
-rwxrwxr-x 1 sys sys 50172 Sep 3 1980 unixrlht
-rwxrwxr-x 1 sys sys 49574 Sep 3 1980 unixrltm
-rwxrwxr-x 1 sys sys 49704 Sep 3 1980 unixrpht
-rwxrwxr-x 1 sys sys 49106 Sep 3 1980 unixrptm
drwxr-xr-x 2 sys sys 32 Aug 19 08:46 usr
But what do I do next? There's a bunch of 5120-byte-record files still
on the tape, and the "/bin" on the root filesystem doesn't have "tar" or
"restor". It *does* have cpio, and I think that's what I want to use. So
what's the next step?
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: Re: Installing SYSTEM III; stuck!
In-Reply-To: <000624211802.2620014a(a)trailing-edge.com> from Tim Shoppa at "Jun 24, 2000 9:18: 2 pm"
To: SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 18:52:47 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society)
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In article by Tim Shoppa:
> But what do I do next? There's a bunch of 5120-byte-record files still
> on the tape, and the "/bin" on the root filesystem doesn't have "tar" or
> "restor". It *does* have cpio, and I think that's what I want to use. So
> what's the next step?
>From the PDP-11 SysIII in the archive, the files are cpio archives. The
/usr/src/man/docs/setup file explains what to do next. It's in nroff
format, but I don't know what macro switch to use to print it out
correctly. I'll send it in a separate e-mail to avoid clogging up the list.
Warren
Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:
> Why can't we just stay on big family ? Of course FreeBSD has it's
> archives elsewhere, but still no reason to divide instead of unite ?
According to Warren's Charter, PUPS and TUHS are both specifically for UNIX.
His Charter defines UNIX as follows:
"Unix is defined as the set of operating systems who can trace their source
code ancestry back to the 1st to 7th Editions of research UNIX from Bell Labs."
Any system that fits this definition automatically falls under the original
UNIX copyright and may not be distributed outside the circle of UNIX source
licensees. Therefore, if you think that FreeBSD fits this definition and
belongs in this group, you must stop publicly distributing it. Otherwise, it
does not belong in the archive or on these lists.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
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>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Tue Jun 20 00:27:09 2000
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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:27:09 -0400
From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
Message-Id: <000619102709.262000b0(a)trailing-edge.com>
Subject: Re: [Newbie alert!] Disk usage of various Unices
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>I recently obtained a beast which appears to be a PDP 11/53+, and I want
>to run some Unix on it (Wahey!). I've got a small problem though: It
>only has one(!) RD32A disk (42MB). I know that this probably won't be
>enough to hold a complete distribution, but which release can I install
>bare-bones on that disk?
You can put the root partition of 2.11BSD on there quite nicely, it'll
live in 8 Mbytes. Trimming down /usr to 42 Mbytes will depend on what
exactly you need from it, though. Certainly you can set up a system
with compilers, etc., even though you won't be able to have all the
sources online at the same time.
>I might be able to slip in another MFM disk (but I don't have something
>bigger than 21 MB at hand), provided I can low-level format it.
You want to read Terry Kennedy's document on adding third-party disks
to DEC RQDX3 controllers. You can find it at
ftp://ftp.spc.edu/third-party-disks.txt
Information about formatting, jumper settings, etc., is all there.
Tim.
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>From Andrew Sporner <andy.sporner(a)networkengines.com> Tue Jun 20 00:30:39 2000
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From: Andrew Sporner <andy.sporner(a)networkengines.com>
To: "'db(a)aptant.com'" <db(a)aptant.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: RE: save everything and divisiveness
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:30:39 -0400
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+ my $0.02 makes $1.00
>From my perspective I have watched this argument on this
list about purism and otherwise.
>From a practical sense, historical trueness makes sense
when we are considering changes to something. That is
to evaluate whether it was better before or after; with
the ultimate goal of coming up with a truly usefull sytem.
Otherwise O/S researchers would never be able to make
advancements because they would be repeating each others
mistakes. But to take a lesson from history makes having
such an archive of old source important.
To get hung up on a particular release makes sense I guess
if you are a collector, such as one who collects vases
because that is an art form. A vase from the Ming chinesse
period is worth more if it has not been modified (for instance
some later owner decides that there are not enough flowers
on the vase--so he adds some). However with Systems software
this is not the case because it is not a tangible item such
as a processor such as a PDP-11 or PDP-8. I know many people
that still run PDP-8's (I have one myself), but universally
ever user of the '8 is trying to make the software on it
run better and more efficiently.
So I would not be one to castigate some pioneers of systems
software whoses names happened not to be K&R. I am sure that
the both Kernigan and Richie both are marveled at what Unix
has become. In fact I believe one of them went on to write
Plan-9 which is really off-the-wall compared to their earlier
work.
Good software is inherrently in a steady process of evolution.
The only piece of software I have ever seen that never evolved
was the classic "Hello World" program that everybody learns to
write on their first lesson in programming.
OK, That's it...
Andy Sporner
>
> My $0.02:
>
>
> I once wondered whether the techniques of literary textual
> criticism could be used in order to determine whether a Linux,
> FreeBSD, groff -- whatever! -- is in any way derived from an
> earlier work. Textual criticism considers a work by examining
> several or all of the extant textual variations in an attempt
> to determine what the author originally wrote; it has been
> used to reconstruct the "original" texts of the ancient as
> well as some modern writers, such as James Joyce. It
> yields a tree of texts, in which the root is the "original,"
> and the sibling children of any node are the descendants of a
> common, perhaps hypothetical, text. I don't know much
> else about it, except that its results may depend on alot
> of knowledge and informed speculation. The textual critics
> work bottom-up to arrive at an original text; I am thinking
> of a top-down process, working from an original text, to show that a
> work lower in a tree is derived from the original. If such a
> technique were valid at all, its validity would only be improved
> with the availablity of many, many "texts." The techniques might be
> more useful where, for example, there were several V7 tapes
> that people
> thought were original, but which, on inspection, turned out
> to be different.
> In this situation, textual criticism might be used to
> reconstruct a "true," V7
> release tape, and, in this situation, would be a bottom-up
> application of the techniques.
>
> In any event, I think that it is important to preserve alot of
> tapes, and to keep them separate with as much information as
> possible about their pedigree. If someone ever did use such
> a technique -- or any other technique -- to reconstruct a
> "true" release,
> it is important that they document their work and not throw away the
> tapes that contributed to the "true" tape, because even more
> tapes may appear in the future which could lead to
> the reconstruction of an even truer tape.
>
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Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote:
> Had it ever occurred to you that others might not delineate "Unix"
> in quite the same way in which you do?
In this case my definition of UNIX agrees with that set by the Charters for
both lists.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
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>From "Joseph S. Barrera III" <joe(a)barrera.org> Tue Jun 20 01:17:01 2000
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From: "Joseph S. Barrera III" <joe(a)barrera.org>
To: "'Michael Sokolov'" <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Cc: <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>, <tuhs(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: RE: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 08:17:01 -0700
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> By the Charter I'm asking you to take this elsewhere.
Bwa ha ha.
That's pretty funny, Michael.
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>From "Broadway, Rusel" <RBROADWAY(a)tbs-ltd.co.uk> Tue Jun 20 01:29:44 2000
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From: "Broadway, Rusel" <RBROADWAY(a)tbs-ltd.co.uk>
To: "'pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au'" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:29:44 +0100
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I agree with Thor: Either grow up or get out!
Rusel Broadway
Senior Systems Analyst (e-mail Rbroadway(a)tbs-ltd.co.uk
<mailto:Rbroadway@tbs-ltd.co.uk> , DDI: 01206-25-5745)
The Book Service Ltd.
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D259143015-19062000>I =
agree with Thor:=20
Either grow up or get out!</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 =
Transitional//EN"><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 =
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<P><IMG height=3D48 src=3D"cid:259143015@19062000-0583" =
width=3D48><FONT color=3D#800000=20
face=3DScript size=3D6>Rusel Broadway </FONT><BR><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Senior=20
Systems Analyst (e-mail </FONT><A=20
href=3D"mailto:Rbroadway@tbs-ltd.co.uk">Rbroadway(a)tbs-ltd.co.uk</A><FONT=
=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>, DDI: 01206-25-5745)</FONT><BR><FONT =
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From: "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com>
To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: The Unix History Graphing Project...
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On Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 09:37:31AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> There are also BabyVAXen, which is what NutBSDists and others talking about
^^^^^
This is *TOTALY* uncalled for.
Warren, Michael has definitely crossed the bounds of lack of respect for
others. Would you please consider moderating his posts?
--
-- David (obrien(a)NUXI.com)
Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote:
> [snipped discussion of clones and workalikes not containing any original UNIX
> code and thus of no relevance to this group]
By the Charter I'm asking you to take this elsewhere.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
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>From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Tue Jun 20 01:11:00 2000
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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:11:00 -0400
From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com>
To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au, tuhs(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
Message-ID: <20000619111100.A5557(a)rek.tjls.com>
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On Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 09:40:50AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote:
>
> > [snipped discussion of clones and workalikes not containing any original UNIX
> > code and thus of no relevance to this group]
>
> By the Charter I'm asking you to take this elsewhere.
I'm asking you, once more, to take your fanaticism elsewhere. I'm also
asking the moderator, once more, in light of this, your recent attacks
on Keith Bostic, your totally gratuitous "NutBSD" swipe in your most
recent missive, and your general misbehaviour and abysmal nettiquite in
your time on this list, to cause you to take your fanaticism elsewhere.
Had it ever occurred to you that others might not delineate "Unix"
in quite the same way in which you do? Of course not. Your opinion
is the only one that matters, and if anyone else doesn't see it that
way, well, then, by God, you'll just have to spew flamage until he
goes away. Great. Really, absolutely what's needed in a preservation
project.
Thor
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Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)cley.com> wrote:
> * Markus Leypold wrote:
> > On the other side, Michael has ventured, to port BSD4.3 to modern
> > VAXens (a noble enterprise in my eyes),
>
> Weell, I don't know about that. All them modern Vaxens aren't really
> *original* are they? Got microprocessors in, half of 'em. Never did
> hold with any kind of computer you didn't need a lorry to move,
> myself.
Now, stop right there! I'm an international agent and I'm armed! :-)
To start with, I don't want to use the term "modern", ever. As for what VAXen I
support and target, my primary emphasis is on BI/XMI VAXen, which are very big
and are absolute miracles of architectural beauty. They don't undermine the
original VAXness a single bit. On the opposite, they actually implement many of
the astounding miracles of the holy original VAX Architecture Reference Manual
that the original VAX-11s were only going to. I also place a high emphasis on
Q22-bus MicroVAXen, as they are readily available and don't require special
power, and yet they fully comply with the proper VAX architecture.
There are also BabyVAXen, which is what NutBSDists and others talking about
"modern VAXen" are probably talking about. Those are indeed very cost-reduced,
VAXness-deprived, and PeeCee-fied. I do plan on supporting them, just so that I
support every VAX ever made, but I by no means endorse them. They are not real
VAXen.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
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Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:
> And some use emulators within modern systems to get a feel for 'the
> genuine article'.
No, no emulator can give you a feel for the genuine article. You won't get that
feel until you get your toes crushed by an H9642 side panel, get your knuckles
scraped by a BA23, or take a day off with your back hurting after carrying an
RA81 across the campus.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
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>From Martijn van Buul <pino(a)dohd.cx> Tue Jun 20 00:08:36 2000
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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:08:36 +0200
From: Martijn van Buul <pino(a)dohd.cx>
To: PUPS mailinglist <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: [Newbie alert!] Disk usage of various Unices
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Hello!
I recently obtained a beast which appears to be a PDP 11/53+, and I want
to run some Unix on it (Wahey!). I've got a small problem though: It
only has one(!) RD32A disk (42MB). I know that this probably won't be
enough to hold a complete distribution, but which release can I install
bare-bones on that disk?
I might be able to slip in another MFM disk (but I don't have something
bigger than 21 MB at hand), provided I can low-level format it.
Your help is greatly appreciated..
--
Martijn van Buul - Pino(a)dohd.cx - http://www.stack.nl/~martijnb/
Visit OuterSpace: mud.stack.nl 3333
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In article by Alan F R Bain:
> Warren,
> Maybe it would be possible to have list guidelines.
> Alan
Here is the PUPS list charter. If you have violent opposition to it, then
please e-mail me.
Warren
The PUPS list on minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au promotes communication between those
people who are interested in the versions of Unix which ran on PDP-11s. Unix
is defined as the set of operating systems who can trace their source code
ancestry back to the 1st to 7th Editions of research UNIX from Bell Labs.
Topics that fall within the list's charter include:
+ how to install, configure & maintain a PDP-11 Unix system
+ discussion of PDP-11 hardware issues related to PDP-11 Unix
+ applications for PDP-11 Unix systems
+ modification of PDP-11 Unix systems
+ technical comparisons between PDP-11 Unix systems
+ anecdotes relating to the history & development of PDP-11 Unix
+ discussion & announcements of the contents of the PDP-11
section of the Unix Archive
Topics that fall outside of the list's charter include:
+ discussion on non PDP-11 Unix systems, unless they are being
compared technically with PDP-11 Unix systems
+ attacks on particular individuals, groups or organisations
+ postings which disenfranchise or alienate a individual list
subscriber, a group of subscribers, or a particular version
of PDP-11 Unix
The list will, in general, not be moderated. However, if a list subscriber
continues to send off-charter postings to the list after warnings to that
effect, then their postings may be moderated.
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>From Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mon Jun 19 17:58:11 2000
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From: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
To: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au, quasijarus(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG,
tuhs(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
In-reply-to: <0006162012.AA01527(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> (msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG)
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD-Alpha in the TUHS/PUPS archive 4BSD area
References: <0006162012.AA01527(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>
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> Delivered-To: leypold(a)lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 15:12:55 CDT
> From: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
> Sender: owner-tuhs(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
>
> Quasijarus Consortium members and TUHS/PUPS archive users,
>
> Today Tim Shoppa has read the HP300 4.4BSD-Alpha distribution on a 9-track 6250
> BPI tape and I have just put it in the archive. It is in
>
> Distributions/4bsd/4.4BSD-Alpha
>
> Of course we generally don't do 4.4BSD, but we do include it in the archival
> and preservation section of our project.
Hi Friends,
I really appreciate that. I'm - generally - more a reader than a user
of ancient code, so concentration on a certain version (or
architecture, i.e. BSD vs the VAX or others) is not as important for
me as is an uninterupted, complete coverage of historical versions.
Having access to this version of BSD4.4 and (soon) all the other
stuff, Tim Shoppa discovered recently, is really GREAT for me.
Please keep everything You can. I think I can predict reliably, future
generations of software historians will be very thankful.
Regards -- Markus
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>From Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mon Jun 19 18:11:45 2000
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From: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
To: apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
In-reply-to: <m2wvjp88lr.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain> (apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org)
Subject: Re: The Unix History Graphing Project...
References: <0006162041.AA01624(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20000616174408.A20743(a)rek.tjls.com> <20000616161053.F35577(a)dragon.nuxi.com> <m2wvjp88lr.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain>
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> Delivered-To: leypold(a)lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> From: "A. P. Garcia" <apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org>
> Date: 17 Jun 2000 00:16:48 +0000
> Lines: 13
> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0804 (Gnus v5.8.4) Emacs/20.6
> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
>
> "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> writes:
>
> > > I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS
> > > projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory
> > > material of this nature on the lists.
> >
> > I have to agree. From his emails, Mr. Solokov is a rather rabid individual.
>
> No, I agree with whomever it was - I think Patrick Henry - that said
> something like "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend
> to the death your right to say it."
>
> You can always send his mail to /dev/null if you don't like it.
I agree. Still I'd prefer (and humbly ask) from Michael Solokov a more
diplomatic attitude. As far as I can see, Mr Bostic has contributed to
UNIX in general and to the PUPS later, which entitles him to being
treated somewhat more respectfully :-)
UNIX is variance, not a one-size-fits-all system.
On the other side, Michael has ventured, to port BSD4.3 to modern
VAXens (a noble enterprise in my eyes), and it would make me sad, to
see so excellent and noble :-) men fight each other. Let's avoid that,
and let there be no war in the (ancient) UNIX camp.
I hope Michael had no intention to hurt the feelings of Keith Bostic.
Regards -- Markus
>
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>From Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mon Jun 19 18:16:01 2000
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From: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
To: SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com
Cc: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
In-reply-to: <000616202913.262000b0(a)trailing-edge.com> (message from Tim
Shoppa on Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:29:13 -0400)
Subject: Re: Yet Another "where does it fit" question
References: <000616202913.262000b0(a)trailing-edge.com>
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> Delivered-To: leypold(a)lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:29:13 -0400
> From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
>
> Yesterday I asked:
>
> >Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS
> >Unix". Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's
> >different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-) Terry
> >didn't remember...
>
> Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between
> 2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by
> Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.) Is this something
> worthwhile to put in the archive? At the moment, looking at the
> timeline of PDP-11 Unices currently in the archive, we have at the
> "fairly recent" end:
>
> 2.9 from 1983
> 2.9.1BSD from 1983
> 2.10BSD from 1987
> 2.10.1BSD from 1989
> 2.11BSD from the past year
>
> Would it be a worthwhile thing to put 2.10.2 up as an intermediate
> step filling in the ten year gap between 2.10.1 and the current 2.11?
> I'm worried that whenever I find a metric buttload of Unix tapes that my
Hehe. That seems to be a real danger :-)
> proposals of adding everything in them to the archive may just be
> adding too much volume that folks simply aren't interested in.
Hi Tim,
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE. Seriously: If You ever do not want to put
something in the archive, give it to me. I have the impression one
needs the intermediate versions to be ever able to crosscheck the
transfer of features between the diverse branches.
Regards Markus.
>
> --
> Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
> Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
> 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
> Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
>
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>From Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mon Jun 19 18:48:59 2000
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From: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
To: robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk
Cc: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com, PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com
In-reply-to: <G$mbSLAfS1S5EweW(a)ruffnready.co.uk> (message from Robin Birch on
Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:36:15 +0100)
Subject: Re: Yet Another "where does it fit" question
References: <200006170209.TAA24691(a)moe.2bsd.com> <G$mbSLAfS1S5EweW(a)ruffnready.co.uk>
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> Delivered-To: leypold(a)lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:36:15 +0100
> Cc: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com
> From: Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk>
> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
>
> In message <200006170209.TAA24691(a)moe.2bsd.com>, Steven M. Schultz
> <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> writes
> >Hi --
> >
> > I hope I'm in the right mailing list :)
> >
> >> From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
> >> Yesterday I asked:
> >>
> >> >Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS
> >> >Unix". Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's
> >> >different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-) Terry
> >> >didn't remember...
> >>
> >> Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between
> >> 2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by
> >> Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.) Is this something
>
> > I think it would be - I didn't save a copy for myself ;)
> >
> For what it's worth I think this brings in an interesting branch to the
> archive. Should there be a space for stuff we should hold for purely
> historical reference purposes and a different one for stuff that would
> normally be interesting to the average user group punter?. This might
> have some effects on the archive structure.
Well, perhaps not the archive structure should be changed. What I miss
is more something like a getting-started-guide: Which versions you
could try first with - let's say the emulator - and how to boot them.
Regards -- Markus
>
> Robin
>
> ____________________________________________________________________
> Robin Birch robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk
>
> M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD Old computers and radios always welcome
>
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>From Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mon Jun 19 18:58:21 2000
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From: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
To: mallison(a)konnections.com
Cc: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
In-reply-to: <007901bfd875$cb8aaea0$ab7a3fd1@oemcomputer>
(mallison(a)konnections.com)
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
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> Delivered-To: leypold(a)lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> From: "Mike Allison" <mallison(a)konnections.com>
> Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:05:01 -0600
> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
>
> I think I understand what Michael is saying. Or at least it means something
> to me.
>
> I don't have a lot vested here, nor have I always followed the issues with
> PUPS and now TUHS.
>
> Certainly a big part of this was running AT&T UNIX systems on these
> machines. And, TUHS might only ever be about UNIX as UNIX (R).
Well, the demarcation lines are not wuite clearly drawn. Only
yesterday my eyes fell on a paragraph in Peter Salus Book: 4.xBSD
brought ... improvments ... also a port to the Intel 386/486
Architecture by Bill Jolitz. Well, 386BSD became FreeBSD and it's
offspring.
Why can't we just stay on big family ? Of course FreeBSD has it's
archives elsewhere, but still no reason to divide instead of unite ?
>
> The fact that you COULD run a unix clone -- Linux, Open BSD, what have you
> is fine. We can argue that true BSD was a set of improvements or additions
> to UNIX which may even have been sanctioned in part by the UNIX team. But
> the fact that you run Linux, Open BSD, MINIX or a MSDOS clone is not
> pertinent to running UNIX System N.n
>
> Using the GNU C Compiler is not pertinent to the AT&T K&R C compiler, per
> se.
>
> Is the ultimate purpose then of the list to keep the machines running
> regardless of OS, or to run AT&T UNIX on these systems.
>
> I won't fault Michael for his perspective. But I guess we should agree to
> define the parameters of the list, or agree NOT to define them.
Well, not to be disprespectful to honorable members of the community
certainly should be a parameter :-)
It makes me sad to see all this.
Regards -- Markus
> Just one insignificant soul's opinion (JOISO)
>
> -Mike
>
> Mike Allison
> Stranded in Utah, USA
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>
> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
> Date: Saturday, June 17, 2000 9:09 AM
> Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
>
>
> >If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX.
> And
> >I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't care
> >about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are, they
> are
> >still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article.
> >
>
>
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>From Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mon Jun 19 18:59:40 2000
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From: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
To: kshuff(a)fast.net
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
In-reply-to: <394BA7D6.52DD(a)fast.net> (message from kshuff on Sat, 17 Jun 2000
12:31:18 -0400)
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
References: <0006171504.AA02620(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> <394BA7D6.52DD(a)fast.net>
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> Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 12:31:18 -0400
> From: kshuff <kshuff(a)fast.net>
> Organization: I'm not organized
> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
>
> Michael Sokolov wrote:
>
> > still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article.
> >
>
> That might be fine and dandy for you, but other people do not share
> your views
> and should not have to be criticized or belittled because they run
> more "modern"
> hardware and not true UNIX. We're not all living 20 years in the
> past.
And some use emulators within modern systems to get a feel for 'the
genuine article'.
-- Markus
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>From Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)cley.com> Mon Jun 19 20:32:14 2000
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To: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
Cc: apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: The Unix History Graphing Project...
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* Markus Leypold wrote:
> On the other side, Michael has ventured, to port BSD4.3 to modern
> VAXens (a noble enterprise in my eyes),
Weell, I don't know about that. All them modern Vaxens aren't really
*original* are they? Got microprocessors in, half of 'em. Never did
hold with any kind of computer you didn't need a lorry to move,
myself.
--tim
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>From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Mon Jun 19 21:19:11 2000
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From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com>
To: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
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On Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 10:58:21AM +0200, Markus Leypold wrote:
>
>
> > Delivered-To: leypold(a)lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> > From: "Mike Allison" <mallison(a)konnections.com>
> > Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:05:01 -0600
> > Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
> >
> > I think I understand what Michael is saying. Or at least it means something
> > to me.
> >
> > I don't have a lot vested here, nor have I always followed the issues with
> > PUPS and now TUHS.
> >
> > Certainly a big part of this was running AT&T UNIX systems on these
> > machines. And, TUHS might only ever be about UNIX as UNIX (R).
>
> Well, the demarcation lines are not wuite clearly drawn. Only
> yesterday my eyes fell on a paragraph in Peter Salus Book: 4.xBSD
> brought ... improvments ... also a port to the Intel 386/486
> Architecture by Bill Jolitz. Well, 386BSD became FreeBSD and it's
> offspring.
For those trying to keep track of the exact Unix history graph,
it should be noted that the above history isn't quite right.
Jolitz' original 386 port was partially done for CSRG and partially
done for what became BSDI. A somewhat infamous falling-out during
Usenix resulted in Jolitz *redoing* his 386 port and releasing it
as 386BSD shortly after BSDI released BSD/386.
BSD/386 0.0 was released, then 0.1. Jolitz kept saying things
about "0.2" but it began to become clear to most people that it
wouldn't be released soon, if ever. A semi-official "patchkit"
sprung up, and soon most people were running 386BSD 0.1 plus
patchkit X.
Meanwhile, Adam Glass and Chris Demetriou and, soon, a small
number of others, started work on what became NetBSD, a centrally
managed free software project that sought to bring some CSRG-like
focus to the 386BSD chaos. An early snapshot of this made its
way to the patchkit folks, who declined for various reasons to
participate. NetBSD 0.8 was released, and a little bit later
the patchkit maintainers (mostly) released FreeBSD. Though there
was new work -- and would eventually be a *lot* of new work --
there was also clearly a lot of code that came not from 386BSD
or the patchkits but from that pre-0.8 NetBSD snapshot. Since
these facts are pretty well known among the principals involved
it's always been a mystery to me why Unix history graphs seem
to get the later wiggles in the xBSD line all wrong.
Thor
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>From Donald Brownlee <db(a)aptant.com> Mon Jun 19 22:37:08 2000
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My $0.02:
I once wondered whether the techniques of literary textual
criticism could be used in order to determine whether a Linux,
FreeBSD, groff -- whatever! -- is in any way derived from an
earlier work. Textual criticism considers a work by examining
several or all of the extant textual variations in an attempt
to determine what the author originally wrote; it has been
used to reconstruct the "original" texts of the ancient as
well as some modern writers, such as James Joyce. It
yields a tree of texts, in which the root is the "original,"
and the sibling children of any node are the descendants of a
common, perhaps hypothetical, text. I don't know much
else about it, except that its results may depend on alot
of knowledge and informed speculation. The textual critics
work bottom-up to arrive at an original text; I am thinking
of a top-down process, working from an original text, to show that a
work lower in a tree is derived from the original. If such a
technique were valid at all, its validity would only be improved
with the availablity of many, many "texts." The techniques might be
more useful where, for example, there were several V7 tapes that people
thought were original, but which, on inspection, turned out to be different.
In this situation, textual criticism might be used to reconstruct a "true," V7
release tape, and, in this situation, would be a bottom-up application of the techniques.
In any event, I think that it is important to preserve alot of
tapes, and to keep them separate with as much information as
possible about their pedigree. If someone ever did use such
a technique -- or any other technique -- to reconstruct a "true" release,
it is important that they document their work and not throw away the
tapes that contributed to the "true" tape, because even more
tapes may appear in the future which could lead to
the reconstruction of an even truer tape.
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Tim Shoppa writes,
> Is there a readable (meaning "not source code") history of *.*BSD
> on the McCusick CD set? Most of the comment-type entries in the
> Unix History Graphing Project for the BSD releases are pretty good,
> but not real complete.
Maybe this has already been covered sufficiently, but several of
the BSD releases came with lists of what had changed since the
previous versions. I've HTMLified the ones I have copies of at
http://pobox.com/~enf/lore/unix/bsd/
eric
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>From Cyrille Lefevre <clefevre(a)no-spam.citeweb.net> Sun Jun 18 10:23:21 2000
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Posted-Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 02:23:22 +0200 (CEST)
To: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
References: <0006171504.AA02620(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>
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msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) writes:
[snip]
> If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX. And
> I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't care
> about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are, they are
> still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article.
are you sure your name isn't "Rev. Don Kool" alias oldno7(a)home.com ?
it's a joke :)
Cyrille.
--
home:mailto:clefevre@no-spam.citeweb.net Supprimer "no-spam." pour me repondre.
work:mailto:Cyrille.Lefevre@no-spam.edf.fr Remove "no-spam." to answer me back.
David O'Brien <obrien(a)NUXI.com> wrote:
> That is a fine opinion, and one understandable. BUT, I don't see Joy,
> McKusick, or Lefler on your list.
Their work is an *extension* of the Ritchie/Thompson original UNIX, not a
replacement. 3BSD through 4.3BSD are direct logical successors of V7/32V
research UNIX.
> So why is it again that you do 4.3BSD
> rather than some System III/V [...]
Because I believe that 3BSD through 4.3BSD are the real trunk successors of V7
and 32V, not System III and System V (more affectionately known as Missed'em-
five as you can see in the Jargon File). True UNIX is Research UNIX, UNIX that
is for research purposes, not commercial ones. The AT&T Education Software
License I have buried in my desk somewhere prohibits any commercial use. System
III and V deserted this True UNIX mission, but Berkeley UNIX picked it up
instead.
Exactly the same later happened with 4.4BSD and 4.3BSD-Quasijarus.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
kshuff <kshuff(a)fast.net> wrote:
> That might be fine and dandy for you, but other people do not share
> your views
> and should not have to be criticized or belittled because they run
> more "modern"
> hardware and not true UNIX. We're not all living 20 years in the
> past.
Then why are you on this list?
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
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From: "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com>
To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
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On Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:04:30AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX.
That is a fine opinion, and one understandable. BUT, I don't see Joy,
McKusick, or Lefler on your list. So why is it again that you do 4.3BSD
rather than some System III/V + 2BSD?? Joy & McKusick modified the AT&T
kernel quite a bit. Or did you not know that they touched that code.
--
-- David (obrien(a)NUXI.com)
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David O'Brien <obrien(a)NUXI.com> wrote:
> Not to mention we owe the entire Open Source BSD availability to Keith.
>
> [snipped description of how Bostic, like a murderous American surgeon, cut
> out with his butcher knife all the Holy Original True Pure UNIX(R) code, the
> code that made BSD Berkeley UNIX(R) and not just some little mortal *BSD,
> and replaced it with cheap plastic prostetics]
It is *this* that I consider Bostic the killer of CSRG, of True BSD, and of
True UNIX for. I don't fscking care whether you call it free or not. The True
UNIX code is free to those who have access to it, in the sense that they can
make arbitrary modifications to it and freely redistribute it within the circle
of accessees. Pure UNIX is completely open source: it is not usable at all
without the source, so everyone who has it has the source. Either you have the
source or you don't run UNIX. No binary-only distributions. Previously the
circle of UNIX accessees was limited to universities, but then they were the
only ones who could afford the hardware needed to run UNIX and the electric
bills that come with it, so this really wasn't an issue. Someone who wasn't
part of a university with a UNIX source license was almost certainly in no
position to run UNIX or have an interest in it anyway. Now the situation has
changed, and many people run PDP-11s and VAXen on a hobbyist basis in their
homes, but the licensing situation has changed accordingly too: now it's a free
clickwrap license.
If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX. And
I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't care
about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are, they are
still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
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>From "Soren S. Jorvang" <soren(a)wheel.dk> Sun Jun 18 01:21:41 2000
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Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 17:21:41 +0200
From: "Soren S. Jorvang" <soren(a)wheel.dk>
To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
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On Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:04:30AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
>
I think now is a good time for you to leave the PUPS list.
--
Soren
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>From "Mike Allison" <mallison(a)konnections.com> Sun Jun 18 02:05:01 2000
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From: "Mike Allison" <mallison(a)konnections.com>
To: "Michael Sokolov" <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>, <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
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I think I understand what Michael is saying. Or at least it means something
to me.
I don't have a lot vested here, nor have I always followed the issues with
PUPS and now TUHS.
Certainly a big part of this was running AT&T UNIX systems on these
machines. And, TUHS might only ever be about UNIX as UNIX (R).
The fact that you COULD run a unix clone -- Linux, Open BSD, what have you
is fine. We can argue that true BSD was a set of improvements or additions
to UNIX which may even have been sanctioned in part by the UNIX team. But
the fact that you run Linux, Open BSD, MINIX or a MSDOS clone is not
pertinent to running UNIX System N.n
Using the GNU C Compiler is not pertinent to the AT&T K&R C compiler, per
se.
Is the ultimate purpose then of the list to keep the machines running
regardless of OS, or to run AT&T UNIX on these systems.
I won't fault Michael for his perspective. But I guess we should agree to
define the parameters of the list, or agree NOT to define them.
Just one insignificant soul's opinion (JOISO)
-Mike
Mike Allison
Stranded in Utah, USA
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Date: Saturday, June 17, 2000 9:09 AM
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
>If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX.
And
>I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't care
>about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are, they
are
>still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article.
>
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>From Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Sat Jun 17 09:09:00 2000
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Michael Sokolov wrote:
> If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX. And
> I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't care
> about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are, they are
> still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article.
>
That might be fine and dandy for you, but other people do not share
your views
and should not have to be criticized or belittled because they run
more "modern"
hardware and not true UNIX. We're not all living 20 years in the
past.
K.S.
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> On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> > Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Is there a readable (meaning "not source code") history of *.*BSD
> > > on the McCusick CD set? Most of the comment-type entries in the
> > > Unix History Graphing Project for the BSD releases are pretty good,
> > > but not real complete.
> >
> > The line of True UNIX development is straight:
> >
> > V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe ->
> > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus
> >
> > There is also a branch which I call Bostic BSD, resulting from Keith Bostic
> > taking over CSRG and killing it, that goes:
>
> [... and more spewage ...]
>
> I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS
> projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory
> material of this nature on the lists.
>
> Thor
I second some form of censure here. I already filter this person's email
when I can, via my mail handler and client, but I am still subjected to his
non-constructive constant arrogance when included in other's replies.
Obviously I find his tact, social skills, and ethics reprehensible or I
wouldn't have bothered taking the measures I have. Simply put, people
are welcome to their opinions, but his are bordering anti-social and
are downright rude and insulting.
Everyone is welcome to opinions and points-of-view, but having such shoved
in faces at every opportunity is intolerable.
Regards,
Scott G. Taylor
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>From "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> Sat Jun 17 09:10:53 2000
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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:10:53 -0700
From: "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: The Unix History Graphing Project...
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On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 05:44:08PM -0400, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:
> > > Most of the comment-type entries in the Unix History Graphing
> > > Project for the BSD releases are pretty good, but not real
> > > complete.
> >
> > The line of True UNIX development is straight:
> >
> > V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe ->
> > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus
> >
> > There is also a branch which I call Bostic BSD, resulting from Keith Bostic
> > taking over CSRG and killing it, that goes:
>
> [... and more spewage ...]
>
> I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS
> projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory
> material of this nature on the lists.
I have to agree. From his emails, Mr. Solokov is a rather rabid individual.
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>From "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> Sat Jun 17 09:11:45 2000
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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:11:45 -0700
From: "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com>
To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD-Alpha
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On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 02:27:54PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> I know this of course, I have one.
Of course you do, but others may not. So why are you wasting my disk
space with this email?
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>From "A. P. Garcia" <apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org> Sat Jun 17 10:16:48 2000
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Subject: Re: The Unix History Graphing Project...
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"David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> writes:
> > I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS
> > projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory
> > material of this nature on the lists.
>
> I have to agree. From his emails, Mr. Solokov is a rather rabid individual.
No, I agree with whomever it was - I think Patrick Henry - that said
something like "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend
to the death your right to say it."
You can always send his mail to /dev/null if you don't like it.
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Sat Jun 17 10:28:59 2000
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
In-Reply-To: <20000616174408.A20743(a)rek.tjls.com> from Thor Lancelot Simon at "Jun 16, 2000 5:44: 8 pm"
To:
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:28:59 +1000 (EST)
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In article by Thor Lancelot Simon:
> On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> > The line of True UNIX development is straight:
> > V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe ->
> > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus
> I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS
> projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory
> material of this nature on the lists.
> Thor
While I do not agree with Michael's particular beliefs about True UNIX, as
I wear the hat of UNIX Heritage Society, I want to encourage his efforts on
4.3BSD-Quasijarus, as I do with 2.11BSD, NetBSD etc etc.
Michael, in order to ease the tension in the mailing lists, would it
be possible for you to write a web (or ftp) page describing your beliefs,
so that interested people can go read it. For example, in future mailings
you could say:
As you know, I believe True UNIX flows from V6 to 4.3BSD
but not to 4.4BSD, see http://xxx.xxx.xxx for details.
I'm not asking you to moderate your beliefs or stop espousing them, but
I would rather keep the mailing list inclusive rather than divisive.
For the other readers of this list, it is not possible to stop subscribers
from saying whatever they want. Therefore, if you feel offended, please
try to take any strong exchange of views out of the list. For example, you
might post something like:
In article by Joe Bloe:
> I think turtles are ugly.
I disagree violently with this person's views, and I'll
take this discussion off-line, so as to keep in charter
with the mailing list.
I will also change the mailing lists's on-line charter to be inclusive
and not divisive.
Finally, we now have pups@ (PDP-11 stuff) and tuhs@ (generic Unix stuff,
which includes discussion on the Archive). The original posting, and all
the followups, should have gone to tuhs@, so please send your mails to
the right list!!!
Thank you,
Warren
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>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Sat Jun 17 10:29:13 2000
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From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
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Subject: Re: Yet Another "where does it fit" question
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Yesterday I asked:
>Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS
>Unix". Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's
>different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-) Terry
>didn't remember...
Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between
2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by
Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.) Is this something
worthwhile to put in the archive? At the moment, looking at the
timeline of PDP-11 Unices currently in the archive, we have at the
"fairly recent" end:
2.9 from 1983
2.9.1BSD from 1983
2.10BSD from 1987
2.10.1BSD from 1989
2.11BSD from the past year
Would it be a worthwhile thing to put 2.10.2 up as an intermediate
step filling in the ten year gap between 2.10.1 and the current 2.11?
I'm worried that whenever I find a metric buttload of Unix tapes that my
proposals of adding everything in them to the archive may just be
adding too much volume that folks simply aren't interested in.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Sat Jun 17 10:07:24 2000
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: Re: Digest?
In-Reply-To: <394A3D26.86E79289(a)home.com> from Robert Porter at "Jun 16, 2000 7:43:50 am"
To: robport(a)home.com (Robert Porter)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:07:24 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society),
tuhs(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
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In article by Robert Porter:
> Is there a way to unsubscribe from the PUPS/TUHS lists and subscribe to some
> sort of digest? I just can't handle this amount of traffic (much more email
> than I get otherwise).
Send mail to majordomo(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au with the lines:
unsubscribe tuhs
unsubscribe pups
subscribe pups-digest
subscribe tuhs-digest
Cheers!
Warren
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sat Jun 17 12:09:00 2000
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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 19:09:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
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To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU, SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com
Subject: Re: Yet Another "where does it fit" question
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Hi --
I hope I'm in the right mailing list :)
> From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
> Yesterday I asked:
>
> >Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS
> >Unix". Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's
> >different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-) Terry
> >didn't remember...
>
> Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between
> 2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by
> Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.) Is this something
You beat me to it - I was going to respond earlier but got distracted
("real work" the boss wanted ;)).
It's more than half way to 2.11 though. Probably closer to 80 or 90%.
The work had been going on for a year or more since 2.10.1 came out
and I was all set to distribute it on my own when one of the last
folks at the CSRG said it should be 2.11 (based on the size and number
of changes) and a BSD release with USENIX handling the license issues
and distribution.
There aren't many major differences between 2.10.2SMS and what would
be 2.11BSD a few months later (towards the end of 1990 or beginning
of 1991).
> timeline of PDP-11 Unices currently in the archive, we have at the
> "fairly recent" end:
>
> 2.9 from 1983
> 2.9.1BSD from 1983
> 2.10BSD from 1987
> 2.10.1BSD from 1989
2.10.2.SMS goes till about the end of 1990 or beginning of 1991
> Would it be a worthwhile thing to put 2.10.2 up as an intermediate
> step filling in the ten year gap between 2.10.1 and the current 2.11?
I think it would be - I didn't save a copy for myself ;)
A "diff -r" of that against the first 2.11 tape (which I think I might
have somewhere) would be interesting to do some time.
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
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>From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Sat Jun 17 13:20:04 2000
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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 23:20:04 -0400
From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com>
To: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
Message-ID: <20000616232004.A4545(a)rek.tjls.com>
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On Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:28:59AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by Thor Lancelot Simon:
> > On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> > > The line of True UNIX development is straight:
> > > V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe ->
> > > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus
> > I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS
> > projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory
> > material of this nature on the lists.
> > Thor
>
> While I do not agree with Michael's particular beliefs about True UNIX, as
> I wear the hat of UNIX Heritage Society, I want to encourage his efforts on
> 4.3BSD-Quasijarus, as I do with 2.11BSD, NetBSD etc etc.
While I largely agree with your sentiments, I note that in responding to
my text above you have clipped out Michael's direct personal attack
on Keith Bostic. I find this, um, fascinating.
I'll also note that denying Mr. Solokov *this particular forum* for
the spewage of his venom is hardly the kind of governmental interference
with speech that another poster's quotation decried. I don't see why
PUPS/TUHS should provide a general soapbox for shouting insults at the
people who did a lot of the work PUPS/TUHS collect, catalog, and preserve.
Thor
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>From "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> Sat Jun 17 14:55:04 2000
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From: "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
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On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 11:20:04PM -0400, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:
> I don't see why PUPS/TUHS should provide a general soapbox for shouting
> insults at the people who did a lot of the work PUPS/TUHS collect,
> catalog, and preserve.
Not to mention we owe the entire Open Source BSD availability to Keith.
Those that have not heard Kirk McKusick's "History of UNIX at Berkeley"
talk should go read his "Twenty Years of Berkeley Unix From AT&T-Owned to
Freely Redistributable" chapter in "Open Sources: Voices from the Open
Source Revolution". This is on-line at
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/kirkmck.html. To quote:
During one of our weekly group meetings at the CSRG, Keith Bostic
brought up the subject of the popularity of the
freely-redistributable networking release and inquired about the
possibility of doing an expanded release that included more of the
BSD code. Mike Karels and I pointed out to Bostic that releasing
large parts of the system was a huge task, but we agreed that if he
could sort out how to deal with reimplementing the hundreds of
utilities and the massive C library then we would tackle the kernel.
Privately, Karels and I felt that would be the end of the discussion.
Undeterred, Bostic pioneered the technique of doing a mass net-based
development effort. He solicited folks to rewrite the Unix utilities
from scratch based solely on their published descriptions. Their
only compensation would be to have their name listed among the
Berkeley contributors next to the name of the utility that they
rewrote. The contributions started slowly and were mostly for the
trivial utilities. But as the list of completed utilities grew and
Bostic continued to hold forth for contributions at public events
such as Usenix, the rate of contributions continued to grow. Soon
the list crossed one hundred utilities and within 18 months nearly
all the important utilities and libraries had been rewritten.
Proudly, Bostic marched into Mike Karels' and my office, list in
hand, wanting to know how we were doing on the kernel. Resigned to
our task, Karels, Bostic, and I spent the next several months going
over the entire distribution, file by file, removing code that had
originated in the 32/V release.
With what we owe him, I do not think any continual bad mouthing of Keith
should be tolerated.
--
-- David (obrien(a)NUXI.com)
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>From Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk> Sat Jun 17 20:38:09 2000
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Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:38:09 +0100
To: obrien(a)NUXI.com
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
From: Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk>
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
References: <20000616174408.A20743(a)rek.tjls.com>
<200006170028.KAA55686(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
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In message <20000616215504.I35577(a)dragon.nuxi.com>, David O'Brien
<obrien(a)NUXI.com> writes
>On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 11:20:04PM -0400, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:
>> I don't see why PUPS/TUHS should provide a general soapbox for shouting
>> insults at the people who did a lot of the work PUPS/TUHS collect,
>> catalog, and preserve.
>
>Not to mention we owe the entire Open Source BSD availability to Keith.
>
>Those that have not heard Kirk McKusick's "History of UNIX at Berkeley"
>talk should go read his "Twenty Years of Berkeley Unix From AT&T-Owned to
>Freely Redistributable" chapter in "Open Sources: Voices from the Open
>Source Revolution". This is on-line at
>http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/kirkmck.html. To quote:
>
> During one of our weekly group meetings at the CSRG, Keith Bostic
> brought up the subject of the popularity of the
> freely-redistributable networking release and inquired about the
> possibility of doing an expanded release that included more of the
> BSD code. Mike Karels and I pointed out to Bostic that releasing
> large parts of the system was a huge task, but we agreed that if he
> could sort out how to deal with reimplementing the hundreds of
> utilities and the massive C library then we would tackle the kernel.
> Privately, Karels and I felt that would be the end of the discussion.
>
> Undeterred, Bostic pioneered the technique of doing a mass net-based
> development effort. He solicited folks to rewrite the Unix utilities
> from scratch based solely on their published descriptions. Their
> only compensation would be to have their name listed among the
> Berkeley contributors next to the name of the utility that they
> rewrote. The contributions started slowly and were mostly for the
> trivial utilities. But as the list of completed utilities grew and
> Bostic continued to hold forth for contributions at public events
> such as Usenix, the rate of contributions continued to grow. Soon
> the list crossed one hundred utilities and within 18 months nearly
> all the important utilities and libraries had been rewritten.
>
> Proudly, Bostic marched into Mike Karels' and my office, list in
> hand, wanting to know how we were doing on the kernel. Resigned to
> our task, Karels, Bostic, and I spent the next several months going
> over the entire distribution, file by file, removing code that had
> originated in the 32/V release.
>
>With what we owe him, I do not think any continual bad mouthing of Keith
>should be tolerated.
>
Seconded!!!
____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk
M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD Old computers and radios always welcome
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>From Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk> Sat Jun 17 20:36:15 2000
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Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:36:15 +0100
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Cc: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com
From: Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Yet Another "where does it fit" question
References: <200006170209.TAA24691(a)moe.2bsd.com>
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In message <200006170209.TAA24691(a)moe.2bsd.com>, Steven M. Schultz
<sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> writes
>Hi --
>
> I hope I'm in the right mailing list :)
>
>> From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
>> Yesterday I asked:
>>
>> >Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS
>> >Unix". Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's
>> >different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-) Terry
>> >didn't remember...
>>
>> Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between
>> 2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by
>> Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.) Is this something
> I think it would be - I didn't save a copy for myself ;)
>
For what it's worth I think this brings in an interesting branch to the
archive. Should there be a space for stuff we should hold for purely
historical reference purposes and a different one for stuff that would
normally be interesting to the average user group punter?. This might
have some effects on the archive structure.
Robin
____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk
M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD Old computers and radios always welcome
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Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> wrote:
> Is there a readable (meaning "not source code") history of *.*BSD
> on the McCusick CD set? Most of the comment-type entries in the
> Unix History Graphing Project for the BSD releases are pretty good,
> but not real complete.
The line of True UNIX development is straight:
V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe ->
4.3BSD-Quasijarus
There is also a branch which I call Bostic BSD, resulting from Keith Bostic
taking over CSRG and killing it, that goes:
4.BSD-Tahoe -> Net/1 -> 4.3BSD-Reno -> Net/2 -> 4.4BSD-Alpha -> 4.4BSD
1BSD and 2BSD were collections of userland bits without a kernel or a compiler
toolchain or anything else that defines a system and its hardware platform, so
it's generally incorrect to consider them as versions of UNIX, much less as
versions of PDP-11 UNIX. They were bits to be added to an existing UNIX system,
which could conceptualy be anything, although V6 and V7 for the PDP-11 were the
intended targets.
Berkeley UNIX never ran on PDP-11s, only on VAXen, that is, there has never
been a Berkeley UNIX kernel or compiler toolchain for the PDP-11, only for the
VAX. As for 2.xBSD, that's an ex-post-facto backport of BSD UNIX to PDP-11s,
ex-post-facto in the sense that it was made after the torch of UNIX passed from
PDP-11 to VAX, and is a human-alien hybrid of PDP-11 V7 on steroids with dumbed
down VAX 4.xBSD. It comes nowhere near to mainline UNIX or mainline BSD.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
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>From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Sat Jun 17 07:44:08 2000
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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 17:44:08 -0400
From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: The Unix History Graphing Project...
Message-ID: <20000616174408.A20743(a)rek.tjls.com>
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On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> wrote:
>
> > Is there a readable (meaning "not source code") history of *.*BSD
> > on the McCusick CD set? Most of the comment-type entries in the
> > Unix History Graphing Project for the BSD releases are pretty good,
> > but not real complete.
>
> The line of True UNIX development is straight:
>
> V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe ->
> 4.3BSD-Quasijarus
>
> There is also a branch which I call Bostic BSD, resulting from Keith Bostic
> taking over CSRG and killing it, that goes:
[... and more spewage ...]
I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS
projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory
material of this nature on the lists.
Thor
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Quasijarus Consortium members and TUHS/PUPS archive users,
Today Tim Shoppa has read the HP300 4.4BSD-Alpha distribution on a 9-track 6250
BPI tape and I have just put it in the archive. It is in
Distributions/4bsd/4.4BSD-Alpha
Of course we generally don't do 4.4BSD, but we do include it in the archival
and preservation section of our project.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
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>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Sat Jun 17 06:16:00 2000
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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:16:00 -0400
From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
Message-Id: <000616161600.262000b2(a)trailing-edge.com>
Subject: The Unix History Graphing Project...
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>It may have already been discussed before, but here is the list of
>distirbutions on McKusick's "The CSRG Archives" 4-CD set:
>
>1BSD, 2BSD, 3BSD, 2.9pucc, 2.10, 2.79, 2.8, 2.9, 4.0, 4.1, 4.1a, 4.1c.1,
>4.1c.2, 4.1.snap, 4.2, 4.3, VM.snapshot.1, VM.snapshot.2, 4.3Tahoe,
>4.3Reno, Net/1, Net/2, 4.4, 4.4-Lite1, 4.4-Lite2, and /usr/src SCCS
>files.
That suggestion got me looking at "The Unix History Graphing Project" at
http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/Unix_History/index.html
Is there a readable (meaning "not source code") history of *.*BSD
on the McCusick CD set? Most of the comment-type entries in the
Unix History Graphing Project for the BSD releases are pretty good,
but not real complete.
Do any of the Ultrix versions show up somewhere in the The Unix History
Graphing project? I know that they're offshoots from 2BSD and 4BSD, but
I wouldn't mind seeing someone annotate when they shot off and what
was changed/added/deleted. (Did I just volunteer?!?)
Another history question: Anyone know if there's any 2.9BSD-Seismo
distributions kicking around?
Tim.
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David O'Brien <obrien(a)NUXI.com> wrote:
> It may have already been discussed before, but here is the list of
> distirbutions on McKusick's "The CSRG Archives" 4-CD set:
>
> 1BSD, 2BSD, 3BSD, 2.9pucc, 2.10, 2.79, 2.8, 2.9, 4.0, 4.1, 4.1a, 4.1c.1,
> 4.1c.2, 4.1.snap, 4.2, 4.3, VM.snapshot.1, VM.snapshot.2, 4.3Tahoe,
> 4.3Reno, Net/1, Net/2, 4.4, 4.4-Lite1, 4.4-Lite2, and /usr/src SCCS
> files.
I know this of course, I have one.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> wrote:
> I found a separate tape, labeled "August 23, 1992", with a matching cover
> letter (signed by Kirk McKusick) saying "This is a distribution tape
> for the 4.4BSD-Alpha release ... The binaries and kernel on the
> tape support the HP 9000/300 68000-based workstations...". Is this
> the holy grail?
OK, I dunno whether it qualifies as "the holy grail" or not, but yes, it is the
4.4BSD-Alpha dist.
> I would guess the "4.4BSD snapshot 4/1/92" is pre-release.
OK, just upload both if you can, I'll be happy to put them in the archive and
I'm sure Warren will be too.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
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>From "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com> Sat Jun 17 02:31:18 2000
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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:31:18 -0500 (EST)
From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: RX50 vocoder timing; FreeBSD kernel woes
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Sorry in advance if you unintentionally deleted this message because of
the topic, I'm an incorrigable smart-arse and couldn't resist. My other
idea was ILOVEYOU, but that's been done before...
> This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others)
> read this list for.
The initiator of this post was yours truly. I have been silet since this
post. I hate politics. I figured, "just let it simmer down and then
rationally respond." I hate flamefesten.
Sorry. Can't please everybody all the time. Hey, I don't even try, most of
the time. I find that sitting on the fence can be quite an uncomfortable
position to be in, especially if you're on one of the fenceposts. But, wie
immer, I digress. I didn't mean to crowd your (that is, the royal "your")
mailbox with my hardware woes. I had some issues, directly related to my
_usage_ of PDP-11 UNIX, and, insofar as both the mentioned PDP-11 mailing
list and the DECUS PDP-11 list on eisner.decus.org are both ghost towns,
and several members of this mailing list seem to know quite a bit about
both the hardware platform and the software I choose to run (2.11BSD), I
dreamt of things that never were and said "why not." Thanks to the
knowledge of fellow list-members, my questions were answered, my problem
was solved, and the result is now available in the PUPS archive under
Tools/Disks/rx50-FreeBSD.tar.gz (no comments on code quality to the group,
please; that would be off-topic [read: embarassing] :) Qs and Cs to
jasomill(a)indiana.edu welcome), which is useful to me and may possibly be
of some interest to other PDP-11 UNIX hobbyists trying to solve the same
problem.
I read the entire PUPS mailing list archive before making my first post.
I've noticed that the top three platform-specific topics seem to be (in
order of appearance):
1) emulator software
2) VAX hardware
3) PDP hardware
I don't use an emulator and I don't have a VAX (though I want one very
very much, but admittably to run VMS mostly), but the discussions don't
bother me. As a matter of fact, some of them interest me; those that
don't, I skip. Anyway, just an observation.
I know it's not the PHPS, but I can not be dissuaded in my belief that
actually _using_ the systems is a vital part of a living preservation
effort, and using them without functional hardware is a bit difficult,
emulators notwithstanding. But please don't deactivate me :), I'll read a
UHS list and a PUPS list and a VAX list and an RT-PC list (I've been
wanting to get my hands on one of those buggers for awhile, actually),
desirous of everything at the same time, and try my best not to yawn and
say commonplace things (apologizes to Jack Kerouac). Thanks again for help
and interesting discussion, to all parties involved, mad to talk or less
so.
What about archiving PDP hardware information? I don't mean discussing
obscure timing details of RK05 controllers or anything, but having a
section of the archive for random hardware tidbits re: PDP. It's not
_directly_ related to UNIX preservation, but it'd be a boon to PDP UNIX
users (not to mention keeping list traffic down in re: these things), and
its space requirements are miniscule. Maybe wait until the PDP-specific
stuff is split off, and create a directory. I'd be happy to maintain it
(I'm also attempting to contact DEC ne Compaq about getting some legacy
docs released; those, of course, would be included; no, that's not what
Mentec bought, I don't think, that's RSX and RSTS/E and RT-11, maybe even
Ultrix. They provide engineering support to DEC PDP-11 customers as well
as compatible hardware, but I believe Compaq still owns the copyrights to
the Digital hardware documentation. Not 100% sure though).
Once again, sorry, once again, thanks, and in closing,
AWWWW,
jasomill
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>From "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> Sat Jun 17 05:11:28 2000
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From: "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD-Alpha
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It may have already been discussed before, but here is the list of
distirbutions on McKusick's "The CSRG Archives" 4-CD set:
1BSD, 2BSD, 3BSD, 2.9pucc, 2.10, 2.79, 2.8, 2.9, 4.0, 4.1, 4.1a, 4.1c.1,
4.1c.2, 4.1.snap, 4.2, 4.3, VM.snapshot.1, VM.snapshot.2, 4.3Tahoe,
4.3Reno, Net/1, Net/2, 4.4, 4.4-Lite1, 4.4-Lite2, and /usr/src SCCS
files.
--
-- David (obrien(a)NUXI.com)
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Quasijarus Consortium members and TUHS/PUPS archive users,
Since early fall 1998 the archive has had an incomplete distribution of 4.2BSD
reconstructed from some bogus tape images from Per Andersson. This morning Tim
Shoppa read an authentic 4.2BSD tape dist. I compared it with the incomplete
dist in the archive and found that it is the same dist, Tim Shoppa's version is
complete and correct, and Per Andersson's version was incomplete. The files
that were in the archive were correct. I added the missing files this morning,
making the 4.2BSD dist in the archive complete. It is in
Distributions/4bsd/4.2BSD, it is a superset of what was there before (because
what was there before was just missing some files), and it identically matches
Tim Shoppa's copy in his home directory.
I left Per Andersson's original (bogus) files in the Per_Andersson
subdirectory. Warren, it's up to you if you want to keep or delete them.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
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Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> wrote:
> * A 4.3BSD-Reno VAX tape dated "1/2/91". I suppose I have to get down
> on my hands and knees and see how this differs from the version dated
> "30 Jul 90" currently in Distributions/4bsd/4.3BSD-Reno. This has
> the original UCB stickers on it.
Yes.
> * A set of tar files on a tape claiming to be the "4.4BSD snapshot
> 4/1/92". Is PUPS/TUHS collecting anything anything this late? Is
> something like this already in Kirk's archive?
Kirk, you'll have to fill me in on this one. Is this the "4.4BSD-Alpha" I've
seen mentioned in some places? In any case this is not on Kirk's CD-ROMs and
I'll include it in my 4BSD collection.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
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>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Sat Jun 17 00:07:07 2000
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From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
Message-Id: <000616100707.2620009e(a)trailing-edge.com>
Subject: 4.4BSD-Alpha
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>> * A set of tar files on a tape claiming to be the "4.4BSD snapshot
>> 4/1/92". Is PUPS/TUHS collecting anything anything this late? Is
>> something like this already in Kirk's archive?
>Kirk, you'll have to fill me in on this one. Is this the "4.4BSD-Alpha" I've
>seen mentioned in some places? In any case this is not on Kirk's CD-ROMs and
>I'll include it in my 4BSD collection.
I found a separate tape, labeled "August 23, 1992", with a matching cover
letter (signed by Kirk McKusick) saying "This is a distribution tape
for the 4.4BSD-Alpha release ... The binaries and kernel on the
tape support the HP 9000/300 68000-based workstations...". Is this
the holy grail?
I would guess the "4.4BSD snapshot 4/1/92" is pre-release.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
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Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> wrote:
> And Tapes 6 and 7 seem to be a complete distribution set of 4.2BSD,
> they ought to form a good replacement for the supposedly damaged and
> incomplete set in /Distributions/4bsd/4.2BSD.
>
> [contents skipped, perfectly matches CSRG 4.2BSD dist]
Yes, please read them and I'll put them in the archive. I maintain the 4BSD
area.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Fri Jun 16 12:04:11 2000
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: Re: Bunch of Unix tapes rescued
In-Reply-To: <000615210631.262000b2(a)trailing-edge.com> from Tim Shoppa at "Jun 15, 2000 9: 6:31 pm"
To: SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:04:11 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society)
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In article by Tim Shoppa:
> On an Expedition to NJ Tuesday, I rescued about 3/4 of a ton of magtapes.
> Tape 1:
>
> AT&T 60462
> Unix System V Release 2.0
> VAX Version 2 for 11/780 and 11/750
> TPName: Root and Selectables
Yes please, I have sysVR0 in the archive at the moment.
> Tape 2:
> AT&T 60463
> Unix System V Release 2.0
> VAX Version 2 for 11/780 and 11/750
> TPName: USR File System
Yes please. Don't have it yet!
> Tape 3:
> UNIX* System III
> PDP 11/70,45 - 800 BPI
Could be the same as Distributions/usdl/SysIII, but read it anyway!
> And Tapes 6 and 7 seem to be a complete distribution set of 4.2BSD,
> they ought to form a good replacement for the supposedly damaged and
> incomplete set in /Distributions/4bsd/4.2BSD.
Again, yes please!!!
Thanks Tim.
Warren
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>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Fri Jun 16 13:24:51 2000
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Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:24:51 -0400
From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
Message-Id: <000615232451.262000b2(a)trailing-edge.com>
Subject: Re: Bunch of Unix tapes rescued
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> Again, yes please!!!
Would it be useful if I also uploaded GIF's or JPG's or TIFF's of scans
of the labels on the original tapes? If so, is there any preference for
the format of the scan? These are all (as Tommy Smothers
would say) "the original virgin" tapes.
Tim.
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>From Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Fri Jun 16 18:04:53 2000
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From: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
To: SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com
Cc: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
In-reply-to: <000615210631.262000b2(a)trailing-edge.com> (message from Tim
Shoppa on Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:06:31 -0400)
Subject: Re: Bunch of Unix tapes rescued
References: <000615210631.262000b2(a)trailing-edge.com>
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WOW. Great. Super !! :-)
------------------
> Delivered-To: leypold(a)lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:06:31 -0400
> From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
>
> On an Expedition to NJ Tuesday, I rescued about 3/4 of a ton of magtapes.
> Some of these will probably be interesting for the PUPS archive. In particular,
> I'm reading through seven of 'em tonight. If someone could explain to
> me how "Unix System V Release 2.0" and "Unix System III" work into the
> grand scheme of AT&T Unices already in the PUPS archive, and how 2.9.1 BSD
> might be different from (or the same as) the 2.9 BSD stuff already in the
> archive, I'd forever appreciate it :-).
>
> The first two tapes are AT&T Unix System V tapes for VAXen:
>
> Tape 1:
>
> AT&T 60462
> Unix System V Release 2.0
> VAX Version 2 for 11/780 and 11/750
> TPName: Root and Selectables
>
> AT&T 60462
> Dwg: j1p077c-3 List:1M1
> TP No: OTP-1P550-01 IS: 2.0V2
> Order: VX501404 Spec:000 Item:1
> BPI 1600 Max Blksize: 05120 Files:0009
> Date:01/13/86 Opr: jlc Drv: tu-2
>
>
> Tape 2:
> AT&T 60463
> Unix System V Release 2.0
> VAX Version 2 for 11/780 and 11/750
> TPName: USR File System
>
> AT&T 60463
> Dwg: j1p077c-3 List:2m2
> TP No: OTP-1P550-02 IS: 2.0V2
> Order: UX501404 Spec:000 Item:1
> BPI 1600 Max Blksize: 05120 Files:0009
> Date:01/13/86 Opr: jlc Drv: tu-0
>
>
> The third tape is UNIX System III from AT&T:
>
> Tape 3:
> UNIX* System III
> PDP 11/70,45 - 800 BPI
> Release Tape #1
> *UNIX is a trademark of Bell Laboratories
>
> Restricted Rights
> Use Duplication or Disclosure is Subject
> To Restrictions Stated in your contract with
> American Telephone & Telegraph
>
> The Fourth and Fifth tape are either 2.9BSD or 2.9.1BSD (I
> can't tell the difference until I compare these tapes with the
> files already in the PUPS archives):
>
> Tape 4:
>
> Berkeley UNIX (Rev. 2.9.1) 2.9BSD
> Sun Nov 20 14:55:50 PST 1983
> 800 BPI HT/TM boot tape. For tar files
> skip the first 7 tape files with
> ``mt -t /dev/nrmt0 fsf 7''
> Reel 1 of 2 Tape #
>
> Tape 5:
> Berkeley UNIX (Rev. 2.9.1) 2.9BSD
> Sun Nov 20 14:55:50 PST 1983
> 800 BPI Tar of /usr/src
> Reel 2 of 2
>
> And Tapes 6 and 7 seem to be a complete distribution set of 4.2BSD,
> they ought to form a good replacement for the supposedly damaged and
> incomplete set in /Distributions/4bsd/4.2BSD.
>
> Tape 6:
> 4.2bsd VAX UNIX System 8/23/83
> 6 files on tape:
> 1 (boot stuff) 2 (mini root)
> 3 ((root dump) 4 (/sys) 5 (/usr)
> 6 (/usr/lib/vfont)
> last three are tar; 1600 bpi
>
> Tape 7:
> 4.2bsd VAX UNIX System 8/23/83
> tape 2: 3 files on tape
> 1 (/usr/src)
> 2 (user contributed software)
> 3 (/usr/ingres)
> all files are tar; 1600 bpi
>
> Like I said, there's about 3/4 of a ton of tapes in total, I'm sure there
> are some other PUPS-related goodies deeper in the pile...
>
> --
> Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
> Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
> 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
> Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
>
>
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>From Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Fri Jun 16 18:08:07 2000
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From: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
To: SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com
Cc: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
In-reply-to: <000615232451.262000b2(a)trailing-edge.com> (message from Tim
Shoppa on Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:24:51 -0400)
Subject: Re: Bunch of Unix tapes rescued
References: <000615232451.262000b2(a)trailing-edge.com>
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> Delivered-To: leypold(a)lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:24:51 -0400
> From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
>
> > Again, yes please!!!
>
> Would it be useful if I also uploaded GIF's or JPG's or TIFF's of scans
> of the labels on the original tapes? If so, is there any preference for
> the format of the scan? These are all (as Tommy Smothers
> would say) "the original virgin" tapes.
Well, I'm presently only a client of the archive, so to say, but why not use
png (the gif replacement advocated by the FSF). Better not use GIF for all
this licensing issues. And as far as I see, png can be shown by -- well --
Netscape, whereas TIFF requires a plugin or an external viewer.
Regards - Markus
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>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Fri Jun 16 21:21:56 2000
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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 7:21:56 -0400
From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
Message-Id: <000616072156.262000b2(a)trailing-edge.com>
Subject: Yet Another "where does it fit" question
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OK, I started sorting through some more piles of tapes, and I found
a one more thing that I'm-not-quite-sure-where-it-fits:
Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS
Unix". Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's
different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-) Terry
didn't remember...
Also, more goodies that may (or may not) be appropriate to add:
* A 4.3BSD-Reno VAX tape dated "1/2/91". I suppose I have to get down
on my hands and knees and see how this differs from the version dated
"30 Jul 90" currently in Distributions/4bsd/4.3BSD-Reno. This has
the original UCB stickers on it.
* A set of tar files on a tape claiming to be the "4.4BSD snapshot
4/1/92". Is PUPS/TUHS collecting anything anything this late? Is
something like this already in Kirk's archive?
Tim.
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The following message is a courtesy copy of an article
that has been posted to alt.sys.pdp11 as well.
Time for the second round of assembler source code review.
If the user specifies a PDP-11 model to the assembler (e.g. -m11/45),
this code is used to tell the assembler what processor to assemble for.
Also, in one case (11/34a), the model enables FP-11 floating-point
instructions. Should this be done for 11/34c too? If there are any
other models with otherwise optional features installed, I'd like to
know.
if (strcmp (arg, "03") == 0) /* 11/03 */
return set_cpu_model ("kd11f"); /* KD11-F */
else if (strcmp (arg, "04") == 0) /* 11/04 */
return set_cpu_model ("kd11d"); /* KD11-D */
else if (strcmp (arg, "05") == 0 || /* 11/05 or 11/10 */
strcmp (arg, "10") == 0)
return set_cpu_model ("kd11b"); /* KD11-B */
else if (strcmp (arg, "15") == 0 || /* 11/15 or 11/20 */
strcmp (arg, "20") == 0)
return set_cpu_model ("ka11"); /* KA11 */
else if (strcmp (arg, "21") == 0) /* 11/21 */
return set_cpu_model ("t11"); /* T11 */
else if (strcmp (arg, "24") == 0) /* 11/24 */
return set_cpu_model ("f11"); /* F11 */
else if (strcmp (arg, "34") == 0) /* 11/34 */
return set_cpu_model ("kd11e"); /* KD11-E */
else if (strcmp (arg, "34a") == 0) /* 11/34a */
return set_cpu_model ("kd11e") && /* KD11-E with FP-11 */
set_option ("fpp");
else if (strcmp (arg, "35") == 0 || /* 11/35 or 11/40 */
strcmp (arg, "40") == 0)
return set_cpu_model ("kd11da"); /* KD11-A */
else if (strcmp (arg, "44") == 0) /* 11/44 */
return set_cpu_model ("kd11dz"); /* KD11-Z */
else if (strcmp (arg, "45") == 0 || /* 11/45/50/55/70 */
strcmp (arg, "50") == 0 ||
strcmp (arg, "55") == 0 ||
strcmp (arg, "70") == 0)
return set_cpu_model ("kb11"); /* KB11 */
else if (strcmp (arg, "60") == 0) /* 11/60 */
return set_cpu_model ("kd11k"); /* KD11-K */
else if (strcmp (arg, "53") == 0 || /* 11/53/73/83/84/93/94 */
strcmp (arg, "73") == 0 ||
strcmp (arg, "83") == 0 ||
strcmp (arg, "84") == 0 ||
strcmp (arg, "93") == 0 ||
strcmp (arg, "94") == 0)
return set_cpu_model ("j11"); /* J11 */
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>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Fri Jun 16 11:06:31 2000
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Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:06:31 -0400
From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
Message-Id: <000615210631.262000b2(a)trailing-edge.com>
Subject: Bunch of Unix tapes rescued
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
On an Expedition to NJ Tuesday, I rescued about 3/4 of a ton of magtapes.
Some of these will probably be interesting for the PUPS archive. In particular,
I'm reading through seven of 'em tonight. If someone could explain to
me how "Unix System V Release 2.0" and "Unix System III" work into the
grand scheme of AT&T Unices already in the PUPS archive, and how 2.9.1 BSD
might be different from (or the same as) the 2.9 BSD stuff already in the
archive, I'd forever appreciate it :-).
The first two tapes are AT&T Unix System V tapes for VAXen:
Tape 1:
AT&T 60462
Unix System V Release 2.0
VAX Version 2 for 11/780 and 11/750
TPName: Root and Selectables
AT&T 60462
Dwg: j1p077c-3 List:1M1
TP No: OTP-1P550-01 IS: 2.0V2
Order: VX501404 Spec:000 Item:1
BPI 1600 Max Blksize: 05120 Files:0009
Date:01/13/86 Opr: jlc Drv: tu-2
Tape 2:
AT&T 60463
Unix System V Release 2.0
VAX Version 2 for 11/780 and 11/750
TPName: USR File System
AT&T 60463
Dwg: j1p077c-3 List:2m2
TP No: OTP-1P550-02 IS: 2.0V2
Order: UX501404 Spec:000 Item:1
BPI 1600 Max Blksize: 05120 Files:0009
Date:01/13/86 Opr: jlc Drv: tu-0
The third tape is UNIX System III from AT&T:
Tape 3:
UNIX* System III
PDP 11/70,45 - 800 BPI
Release Tape #1
*UNIX is a trademark of Bell Laboratories
Restricted Rights
Use Duplication or Disclosure is Subject
To Restrictions Stated in your contract with
American Telephone & Telegraph
The Fourth and Fifth tape are either 2.9BSD or 2.9.1BSD (I
can't tell the difference until I compare these tapes with the
files already in the PUPS archives):
Tape 4:
Berkeley UNIX (Rev. 2.9.1) 2.9BSD
Sun Nov 20 14:55:50 PST 1983
800 BPI HT/TM boot tape. For tar files
skip the first 7 tape files with
``mt -t /dev/nrmt0 fsf 7''
Reel 1 of 2 Tape #
Tape 5:
Berkeley UNIX (Rev. 2.9.1) 2.9BSD
Sun Nov 20 14:55:50 PST 1983
800 BPI Tar of /usr/src
Reel 2 of 2
And Tapes 6 and 7 seem to be a complete distribution set of 4.2BSD,
they ought to form a good replacement for the supposedly damaged and
incomplete set in /Distributions/4bsd/4.2BSD.
Tape 6:
4.2bsd VAX UNIX System 8/23/83
6 files on tape:
1 (boot stuff) 2 (mini root)
3 ((root dump) 4 (/sys) 5 (/usr)
6 (/usr/lib/vfont)
last three are tar; 1600 bpi
Tape 7:
4.2bsd VAX UNIX System 8/23/83
tape 2: 3 files on tape
1 (/usr/src)
2 (user contributed software)
3 (/usr/ingres)
all files are tar; 1600 bpi
Like I said, there's about 3/4 of a ton of tapes in total, I'm sure there
are some other PUPS-related goodies deeper in the pile...
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
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