TUHS

tuhs@tuhs.org

43 participants
6501 discussions

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote: > Why can't we just stay on big family ? Of course FreeBSD has it's > archives elsewhere, but still no reason to divide instead of unite ? According to Warren's Charter, PUPS and TUHS are both specifically for UNIX. His Charter defines UNIX as follows: "Unix is defined as the set of operating systems who can trace their source code ancestry back to the 1st to 7th Editions of research UNIX from Bell Labs." Any system that fits this definition automatically falls under the original UNIX copyright and may not be distributed outside the circle of UNIX source licensees. Therefore, if you think that FreeBSD fits this definition and belongs in this group, you must stop publicly distributing it. Otherwise, it does not belong in the archive or on these lists. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA05755 for pups-liszt; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:30:18 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Tue Jun 20 00:27:09 2000 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA05751 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:30:09 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from SHOPPA(a)timaxp.trailing-edge.com) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:27:09 -0400 Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:27:09 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU Message-Id: <000619102709.262000b0(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: [Newbie alert!] Disk usage of various Unices Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >I recently obtained a beast which appears to be a PDP 11/53+, and I want >to run some Unix on it (Wahey!). I've got a small problem though: It >only has one(!) RD32A disk (42MB). I know that this probably won't be >enough to hold a complete distribution, but which release can I install >bare-bones on that disk? You can put the root partition of 2.11BSD on there quite nicely, it'll live in 8 Mbytes. Trimming down /usr to 42 Mbytes will depend on what exactly you need from it, though. Certainly you can set up a system with compilers, etc., even though you won't be able to have all the sources online at the same time. >I might be able to slip in another MFM disk (but I don't have something >bigger than 21 MB at hand), provided I can low-level format it. You want to read Terry Kennedy's document on adding third-party disks to DEC RQDX3 controllers. You can find it at ftp://ftp.spc.edu/third-party-disks.txt Information about formatting, jumper settings, etc., is all there. Tim. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA05794 for pups-liszt; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:35:36 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Andrew Sporner <andy.sporner(a)networkengines.com> Tue Jun 20 00:30:39 2000 Received: from neimail.networkengines.com (wks7.networkengines.com [64.55.6.7] (may be forged)) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA05790 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:35:33 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from andy.sporner(a)networkengines.com) Received: by neimail.networkengines.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <NCDB61WD>; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:30:45 -0400 Message-ID: <8D18C4F9CBA1D311900F00A0C990C97F67C8CD(a)neimail.networkengines.com> From: Andrew Sporner <andy.sporner(a)networkengines.com> To: "'db(a)aptant.com'" <db(a)aptant.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: RE: save everything and divisiveness Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:30:39 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk + my $0.02 makes $1.00 >From my perspective I have watched this argument on this list about purism and otherwise. >From a practical sense, historical trueness makes sense when we are considering changes to something. That is to evaluate whether it was better before or after; with the ultimate goal of coming up with a truly usefull sytem. Otherwise O/S researchers would never be able to make advancements because they would be repeating each others mistakes. But to take a lesson from history makes having such an archive of old source important. To get hung up on a particular release makes sense I guess if you are a collector, such as one who collects vases because that is an art form. A vase from the Ming chinesse period is worth more if it has not been modified (for instance some later owner decides that there are not enough flowers on the vase--so he adds some). However with Systems software this is not the case because it is not a tangible item such as a processor such as a PDP-11 or PDP-8. I know many people that still run PDP-8's (I have one myself), but universally ever user of the '8 is trying to make the software on it run better and more efficiently. So I would not be one to castigate some pioneers of systems software whoses names happened not to be K&R. I am sure that the both Kernigan and Richie both are marveled at what Unix has become. In fact I believe one of them went on to write Plan-9 which is really off-the-wall compared to their earlier work. Good software is inherrently in a steady process of evolution. The only piece of software I have ever seen that never evolved was the classic "Hello World" program that everybody learns to write on their first lesson in programming. OK, That's it... Andy Sporner > > My $0.02: > > > I once wondered whether the techniques of literary textual > criticism could be used in order to determine whether a Linux, > FreeBSD, groff -- whatever! -- is in any way derived from an > earlier work. Textual criticism considers a work by examining > several or all of the extant textual variations in an attempt > to determine what the author originally wrote; it has been > used to reconstruct the "original" texts of the ancient as > well as some modern writers, such as James Joyce. It > yields a tree of texts, in which the root is the "original," > and the sibling children of any node are the descendants of a > common, perhaps hypothetical, text. I don't know much > else about it, except that its results may depend on alot > of knowledge and informed speculation. The textual critics > work bottom-up to arrive at an original text; I am thinking > of a top-down process, working from an original text, to show that a > work lower in a tree is derived from the original. If such a > technique were valid at all, its validity would only be improved > with the availablity of many, many "texts." The techniques might be > more useful where, for example, there were several V7 tapes > that people > thought were original, but which, on inspection, turned out > to be different. > In this situation, textual criticism might be used to > reconstruct a "true," V7 > release tape, and, in this situation, would be a bottom-up > application of the techniques. > > In any event, I think that it is important to preserve alot of > tapes, and to keep them separate with as much information as > possible about their pedigree. If someone ever did use such > a technique -- or any other technique -- to reconstruct a > "true" release, > it is important that they document their work and not throw away the > tapes that contributed to the "true" tape, because even more > tapes may appear in the future which could lead to > the reconstruction of an even truer tape. > Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA05825 for pups-liszt; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:41:54 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote: > Had it ever occurred to you that others might not delineate "Unix" > in quite the same way in which you do? In this case my definition of UNIX agrees with that set by the Charters for both lists. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA06069 for pups-liszt; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 01:20:58 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Joseph S. Barrera III" <joe(a)barrera.org> Tue Jun 20 01:17:01 2000 Received: from mail.compwebtech.com (w105.z208036038.lax-ca.dsl.cnc.net [208.36.38.105]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA06058; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 01:20:44 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from joe(a)barrera.org) Received: from joebar ([204.153.177.175]) by mail.compwebtech.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id IAA21587; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 08:11:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joe(a)barrera.org) Reply-To: <joe(a)barrera.org> From: "Joseph S. Barrera III" <joe(a)barrera.org> To: "'Michael Sokolov'" <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Cc: <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>, <tuhs(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: RE: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 08:17:01 -0700 Message-ID: <000001bfda01$6f987c70$0300a8c0@joebar> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <0006191440.AA05429(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > By the Charter I'm asking you to take this elsewhere. Bwa ha ha. That's pretty funny, Michael. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA06137 for pups-liszt; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 01:35:35 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Broadway, Rusel" <RBROADWAY(a)tbs-ltd.co.uk> Tue Jun 20 01:29:44 2000 Received: from relay3.mail.uk.psi.net (relay3.mail.uk.psi.net [154.32.109.6]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA06133 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 01:35:30 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from RBROADWAY(a)tbs-ltd.co.uk) Received: from mail.tbs-ltd.co.uk ([195.153.6.162] helo=mimesweeper.tbs-ltd.co.uk) by relay3.mail.uk.psi.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 1343XJ-0000pI-00 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:32:29 +0100 Received: from coexch.tbs-ltd.co.uk (unverified) by mimesweeper.tbs-ltd.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id <B0000229964(a)mimesweeper.tbs-ltd.co.uk> for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:35:23 +0100 Received: by coexch.tbs-ltd.co.uk.50.130.194.in-addr.arpa with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <LG747B43>; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:29:45 +0100 Message-Id: <9114940C5E0FD31186950008C7B9A6021845D4(a)coexch.tbs-ltd.co.uk.50.130.194.in-addr.arpa> From: "Broadway, Rusel" <RBROADWAY(a)tbs-ltd.co.uk> To: "'pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au'" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:29:44 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_000_01BFDA03.32131372" Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_000_01BFDA03.32131372 Content-Type: text/plain ********************** N O T I C E ********************************* This information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review , retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete all copies of the message. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses, however we cannot guarantee that this message is free from such problems. ********************************************************************** ------_=_NextPart_000_01BFDA03.32131372 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BFDA03.32131372" ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFDA03.32131372 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I agree with Thor: Either grow up or get out! Rusel Broadway Senior Systems Analyst (e-mail Rbroadway(a)tbs-ltd.co.uk <mailto:Rbroadway@tbs-ltd.co.uk> , DDI: 01206-25-5745) The Book Service Ltd. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFDA03.32131372 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2919.6307" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D259143015-19062000>I = agree with Thor:=20 Either grow up or get out!</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <P><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 = Transitional//EN"><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 = Transitional//EN"><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 = Transitional//EN"><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 = Transitional//EN"><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 = Transitional//EN"></P> <P><IMG height=3D48 src=3D"cid:259143015@19062000-0583" = width=3D48><FONT color=3D#800000=20 face=3DScript size=3D6>Rusel Broadway </FONT><BR><FONT face=3DArial = size=3D2>Senior=20 Systems Analyst (e-mail </FONT><A=20 href=3D"mailto:Rbroadway@tbs-ltd.co.uk">Rbroadway(a)tbs-ltd.co.uk</A><FONT= =20 face=3DArial size=3D2>, DDI: 01206-25-5745)</FONT><BR><FONT = face=3DArial size=3D2>The=20 Book Service Ltd.</P></FONT> <DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML> ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFDA03.32131372-- ------_=_NextPart_000_01BFDA03.32131372 Content-Type: image/gif; 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Tue, 20 Jun 2000 04:03:02 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> Tue Jun 20 03:59:54 2000 Received: from relay.nuxi.com (root(a)nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA06941 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 04:02:58 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from obrien(a)NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root(a)trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA76288; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:59:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien(a)dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id KAA37108; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:59:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:59:54 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: The Unix History Graphing Project... Message-ID: <20000619105954.D2592(a)dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien(a)NUXI.com References: <0006191437.AA05415(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <0006191437.AA05415(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG on Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 09:37:31AM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 09:37:31AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > There are also BabyVAXen, which is what NutBSDists and others talking about ^^^^^ This is *TOTALY* uncalled for. Warren, Michael has definitely crossed the bounds of lack of respect for others. Would you please consider moderating his posts? -- -- David (obrien(a)NUXI.com)

24 years, 11 months

Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote: > [snipped discussion of clones and workalikes not containing any original UNIX > code and thus of no relevance to this group] By the Charter I'm asking you to take this elsewhere. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA05998 for pups-liszt; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 01:14:17 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Tue Jun 20 01:11:00 2000 Received: from mail1.panix.com (mail1.panix.com [166.84.0.212]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA05994; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 01:14:08 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from tls(a)panix.com) Received: from panix3.panix.com (panix3.panix.com [166.84.0.228]) by mail1.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68D4530F38; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:11:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tls@localhost) by panix3.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id LAA05865; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:11:00 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:11:00 -0400 From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au, tuhs(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive Message-ID: <20000619111100.A5557(a)rek.tjls.com> Reply-To: tls(a)rek.tjls.com References: <0006191440.AA05429(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <0006191440.AA05429(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG on Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 09:40:50AM -0500 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 09:40:50AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote: > > > [snipped discussion of clones and workalikes not containing any original UNIX > > code and thus of no relevance to this group] > > By the Charter I'm asking you to take this elsewhere. I'm asking you, once more, to take your fanaticism elsewhere. I'm also asking the moderator, once more, in light of this, your recent attacks on Keith Bostic, your totally gratuitous "NutBSD" swipe in your most recent missive, and your general misbehaviour and abysmal nettiquite in your time on this list, to cause you to take your fanaticism elsewhere. Had it ever occurred to you that others might not delineate "Unix" in quite the same way in which you do? Of course not. Your opinion is the only one that matters, and if anyone else doesn't see it that way, well, then, by God, you'll just have to spew flamage until he goes away. Great. Really, absolutely what's needed in a preservation project. Thor Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA06047 for pups-liszt; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 01:19:32 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

Re: The Unix History Graphing Project...

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)cley.com> wrote: > * Markus Leypold wrote: > > On the other side, Michael has ventured, to port BSD4.3 to modern > > VAXens (a noble enterprise in my eyes), > > Weell, I don't know about that. All them modern Vaxens aren't really > *original* are they? Got microprocessors in, half of 'em. Never did > hold with any kind of computer you didn't need a lorry to move, > myself. Now, stop right there! I'm an international agent and I'm armed! :-) To start with, I don't want to use the term "modern", ever. As for what VAXen I support and target, my primary emphasis is on BI/XMI VAXen, which are very big and are absolute miracles of architectural beauty. They don't undermine the original VAXness a single bit. On the opposite, they actually implement many of the astounding miracles of the holy original VAX Architecture Reference Manual that the original VAX-11s were only going to. I also place a high emphasis on Q22-bus MicroVAXen, as they are readily available and don't require special power, and yet they fully comply with the proper VAX architecture. There are also BabyVAXen, which is what NutBSDists and others talking about "modern VAXen" are probably talking about. Those are indeed very cost-reduced, VAXness-deprived, and PeeCee-fied. I do plan on supporting them, just so that I support every VAX ever made, but I by no means endorse them. They are not real VAXen. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA05864 for pups-liszt; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:45:21 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote: > And some use emulators within modern systems to get a feel for 'the > genuine article'. No, no emulator can give you a feel for the genuine article. You won't get that feel until you get your toes crushed by an H9642 side panel, get your knuckles scraped by a BA23, or take a day off with your back hurting after carrying an RA81 across the campus. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA05657 for pups-liszt; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:12:04 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Martijn van Buul <pino(a)dohd.cx> Tue Jun 20 00:08:36 2000 Received: from mud.stack.nl (postfix(a)stack-gw.ipv6.stack.nl [131.155.141.2]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA05653 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:12:00 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from martijnb(a)stack.nl) Received: by mud.stack.nl (Postfix, from userid 587) id 0D8887F08; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:08:36 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:08:36 +0200 From: Martijn van Buul <pino(a)dohd.cx> To: PUPS mailinglist <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: [Newbie alert!] Disk usage of various Unices Message-ID: <20000619160836.A12288(a)mud.stack.nl> Reply-To: Martijn van Buul <pino(a)dohd.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.3i Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hello! I recently obtained a beast which appears to be a PDP 11/53+, and I want to run some Unix on it (Wahey!). I've got a small problem though: It only has one(!) RD32A disk (42MB). I know that this probably won't be enough to hold a complete distribution, but which release can I install bare-bones on that disk? I might be able to slip in another MFM disk (but I don't have something bigger than 21 MB at hand), provided I can low-level format it. Your help is greatly appreciated.. -- Martijn van Buul - Pino(a)dohd.cx - http://www.stack.nl/~martijnb/ Visit OuterSpace: mud.stack.nl 3333 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA05774 for pups-liszt; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:31:17 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

Re: List Charter, please

by Warren Toomey

In article by Alan F R Bain: > Warren, > Maybe it would be possible to have list guidelines. > Alan Here is the PUPS list charter. If you have violent opposition to it, then please e-mail me. Warren The PUPS list on minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au promotes communication between those people who are interested in the versions of Unix which ran on PDP-11s. Unix is defined as the set of operating systems who can trace their source code ancestry back to the 1st to 7th Editions of research UNIX from Bell Labs. Topics that fall within the list's charter include: + how to install, configure & maintain a PDP-11 Unix system + discussion of PDP-11 hardware issues related to PDP-11 Unix + applications for PDP-11 Unix systems + modification of PDP-11 Unix systems + technical comparisons between PDP-11 Unix systems + anecdotes relating to the history & development of PDP-11 Unix + discussion & announcements of the contents of the PDP-11 section of the Unix Archive Topics that fall outside of the list's charter include: + discussion on non PDP-11 Unix systems, unless they are being compared technically with PDP-11 Unix systems + attacks on particular individuals, groups or organisations + postings which disenfranchise or alienate a individual list subscriber, a group of subscribers, or a particular version of PDP-11 Unix The list will, in general, not be moderated. However, if a list subscriber continues to send off-charter postings to the list after warnings to that effect, then their postings may be moderated. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA04039 for pups-liszt; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:01:21 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mon Jun 19 17:58:11 2000 Received: from toulon.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (toulon.Informatik.Uni-Tuebingen.De [134.2.12.9]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA04035; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:01:16 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de) Received: from informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (wintermute [134.2.12.56]) by toulon.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0C301060; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 09:58:11 +0200 (MST) Received: (from leypold@localhost) by informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA24577; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 09:58:11 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 09:58:11 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200006190758.JAA24577(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> X-Authentication-Warning: wintermute.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de: leypold set sender to leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de using -f From: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> To: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au, quasijarus(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG, tuhs(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au In-reply-to: <0006162012.AA01527(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> (msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG) Subject: Re: 4.4BSD-Alpha in the TUHS/PUPS archive 4BSD area References: <0006162012.AA01527(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > Delivered-To: leypold(a)lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de > Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 15:12:55 CDT > From: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) > Sender: owner-tuhs(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au > > Quasijarus Consortium members and TUHS/PUPS archive users, > > Today Tim Shoppa has read the HP300 4.4BSD-Alpha distribution on a 9-track 6250 > BPI tape and I have just put it in the archive. It is in > > Distributions/4bsd/4.4BSD-Alpha > > Of course we generally don't do 4.4BSD, but we do include it in the archival > and preservation section of our project. Hi Friends, I really appreciate that. I'm - generally - more a reader than a user of ancient code, so concentration on a certain version (or architecture, i.e. BSD vs the VAX or others) is not as important for me as is an uninterupted, complete coverage of historical versions. Having access to this version of BSD4.4 and (soon) all the other stuff, Tim Shoppa discovered recently, is really GREAT for me. Please keep everything You can. I think I can predict reliably, future generations of software historians will be very thankful. Regards -- Markus Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA04080 for pups-liszt; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:14:54 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mon Jun 19 18:11:45 2000 Received: from toulon.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (toulon.Informatik.Uni-Tuebingen.De [134.2.12.9]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA04076 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:14:49 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de) Received: from informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (wintermute [134.2.12.56]) by toulon.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6B301060; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:11:49 +0200 (MST) Received: (from leypold@localhost) by informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA24592; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:11:45 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:11:45 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200006190811.KAA24592(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> X-Authentication-Warning: wintermute.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de: leypold set sender to leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de using -f From: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> To: apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au In-reply-to: <m2wvjp88lr.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain> (apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org) Subject: Re: The Unix History Graphing Project... References: <0006162041.AA01624(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20000616174408.A20743(a)rek.tjls.com> <20000616161053.F35577(a)dragon.nuxi.com> <m2wvjp88lr.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > Delivered-To: leypold(a)lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de > From: "A. P. Garcia" <apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org> > Date: 17 Jun 2000 00:16:48 +0000 > Lines: 13 > User-Agent: Gnus/5.0804 (Gnus v5.8.4) Emacs/20.6 > Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au > > "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> writes: > > > > I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS > > > projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory > > > material of this nature on the lists. > > > > I have to agree. From his emails, Mr. Solokov is a rather rabid individual. > > No, I agree with whomever it was - I think Patrick Henry - that said > something like "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend > to the death your right to say it." > > You can always send his mail to /dev/null if you don't like it. I agree. Still I'd prefer (and humbly ask) from Michael Solokov a more diplomatic attitude. As far as I can see, Mr Bostic has contributed to UNIX in general and to the PUPS later, which entitles him to being treated somewhat more respectfully :-) UNIX is variance, not a one-size-fits-all system. On the other side, Michael has ventured, to port BSD4.3 to modern VAXens (a noble enterprise in my eyes), and it would make me sad, to see so excellent and noble :-) men fight each other. Let's avoid that, and let there be no war in the (ancient) UNIX camp. I hope Michael had no intention to hurt the feelings of Keith Bostic. Regards -- Markus > Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA04100 for pups-liszt; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:19:08 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mon Jun 19 18:16:01 2000 Received: from toulon.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (toulon.Informatik.Uni-Tuebingen.De [134.2.12.9]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA04096 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:19:04 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de) Received: from informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (wintermute [134.2.12.56]) by toulon.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9DE91060; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:16:04 +0200 (MST) Received: (from leypold@localhost) by informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA24598; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:16:01 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:16:01 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200006190816.KAA24598(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> X-Authentication-Warning: wintermute.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de: leypold set sender to leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de using -f From: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> To: SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com Cc: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU In-reply-to: <000616202913.262000b0(a)trailing-edge.com> (message from Tim Shoppa on Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:29:13 -0400) Subject: Re: Yet Another "where does it fit" question References: <000616202913.262000b0(a)trailing-edge.com> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > Delivered-To: leypold(a)lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de > Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:29:13 -0400 > From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> > Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au > > Yesterday I asked: > > >Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS > >Unix". Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's > >different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-) Terry > >didn't remember... > > Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between > 2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by > Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.) Is this something > worthwhile to put in the archive? At the moment, looking at the > timeline of PDP-11 Unices currently in the archive, we have at the > "fairly recent" end: > > 2.9 from 1983 > 2.9.1BSD from 1983 > 2.10BSD from 1987 > 2.10.1BSD from 1989 > 2.11BSD from the past year > > Would it be a worthwhile thing to put 2.10.2 up as an intermediate > step filling in the ten year gap between 2.10.1 and the current 2.11? > I'm worried that whenever I find a metric buttload of Unix tapes that my Hehe. That seems to be a real danger :-) > proposals of adding everything in them to the archive may just be > adding too much volume that folks simply aren't interested in. Hi Tim, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE. Seriously: If You ever do not want to put something in the archive, give it to me. I have the impression one needs the intermediate versions to be ever able to crosscheck the transfer of features between the diverse branches. Regards Markus. > > -- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA04208 for pups-liszt; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:52:21 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mon Jun 19 18:48:59 2000 Received: from toulon.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (toulon.Informatik.Uni-Tuebingen.De [134.2.12.9]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA04203 for <PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:52:02 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de) Received: from informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (wintermute [134.2.12.56]) by toulon.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C2D81060; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:49:00 +0200 (MST) Received: (from leypold@localhost) by informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA24676; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:48:59 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:48:59 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200006190848.KAA24676(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> X-Authentication-Warning: wintermute.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de: leypold set sender to leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de using -f From: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> To: robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk Cc: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com, PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com In-reply-to: <G$mbSLAfS1S5EweW(a)ruffnready.co.uk> (message from Robin Birch on Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:36:15 +0100) Subject: Re: Yet Another "where does it fit" question References: <200006170209.TAA24691(a)moe.2bsd.com> <G$mbSLAfS1S5EweW(a)ruffnready.co.uk> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > Delivered-To: leypold(a)lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de > Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:36:15 +0100 > Cc: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com > From: Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk> > Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au > > In message <200006170209.TAA24691(a)moe.2bsd.com>, Steven M. Schultz > <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> writes > >Hi -- > > > > I hope I'm in the right mailing list :) > > > >> From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> > >> Yesterday I asked: > >> > >> >Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS > >> >Unix". Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's > >> >different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-) Terry > >> >didn't remember... > >> > >> Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between > >> 2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by > >> Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.) Is this something > > > I think it would be - I didn't save a copy for myself ;) > > > For what it's worth I think this brings in an interesting branch to the > archive. Should there be a space for stuff we should hold for purely > historical reference purposes and a different one for stuff that would > normally be interesting to the average user group punter?. This might > have some effects on the archive structure. Well, perhaps not the archive structure should be changed. What I miss is more something like a getting-started-guide: Which versions you could try first with - let's say the emulator - and how to boot them. Regards -- Markus > > Robin > > ____________________________________________________________________ > Robin Birch robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk > > M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD Old computers and radios always welcome > Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA04250 for pups-liszt; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 19:01:27 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mon Jun 19 18:58:21 2000 Received: from toulon.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (toulon.Informatik.Uni-Tuebingen.De [134.2.12.9]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA04246 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 19:01:22 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de) Received: from informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (wintermute [134.2.12.56]) by toulon.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id C983A1062; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:58:21 +0200 (MST) Received: (from leypold@localhost) by informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA24686; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:58:21 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:58:21 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200006190858.KAA24686(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> X-Authentication-Warning: wintermute.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de: leypold set sender to leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de using -f From: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> To: mallison(a)konnections.com Cc: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au In-reply-to: <007901bfd875$cb8aaea0$ab7a3fd1@oemcomputer> (mallison(a)konnections.com) Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive References: <007901bfd875$cb8aaea0$ab7a3fd1@oemcomputer> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > Delivered-To: leypold(a)lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de > From: "Mike Allison" <mallison(a)konnections.com> > Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:05:01 -0600 > Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au > > I think I understand what Michael is saying. Or at least it means something > to me. > > I don't have a lot vested here, nor have I always followed the issues with > PUPS and now TUHS. > > Certainly a big part of this was running AT&T UNIX systems on these > machines. And, TUHS might only ever be about UNIX as UNIX (R). Well, the demarcation lines are not wuite clearly drawn. Only yesterday my eyes fell on a paragraph in Peter Salus Book: 4.xBSD brought ... improvments ... also a port to the Intel 386/486 Architecture by Bill Jolitz. Well, 386BSD became FreeBSD and it's offspring. Why can't we just stay on big family ? Of course FreeBSD has it's archives elsewhere, but still no reason to divide instead of unite ? > > The fact that you COULD run a unix clone -- Linux, Open BSD, what have you > is fine. We can argue that true BSD was a set of improvements or additions > to UNIX which may even have been sanctioned in part by the UNIX team. But > the fact that you run Linux, Open BSD, MINIX or a MSDOS clone is not > pertinent to running UNIX System N.n > > Using the GNU C Compiler is not pertinent to the AT&T K&R C compiler, per > se. > > Is the ultimate purpose then of the list to keep the machines running > regardless of OS, or to run AT&T UNIX on these systems. > > I won't fault Michael for his perspective. But I guess we should agree to > define the parameters of the list, or agree NOT to define them. Well, not to be disprespectful to honorable members of the community certainly should be a parameter :-) It makes me sad to see all this. Regards -- Markus > Just one insignificant soul's opinion (JOISO) > > -Mike > > Mike Allison > Stranded in Utah, USA > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> > To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> > Date: Saturday, June 17, 2000 9:09 AM > Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive > > > >If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX. > And > >I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't care > >about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are, they > are > >still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article. > > > > Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA04261 for pups-liszt; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 19:02:46 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mon Jun 19 18:59:40 2000 Received: from toulon.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (toulon.Informatik.Uni-Tuebingen.De [134.2.12.9]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA04257 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 19:02:42 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de) Received: from informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (wintermute [134.2.12.56]) by toulon.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D3091062; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:59:44 +0200 (MST) Received: (from leypold@localhost) by informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA24689; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:59:40 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:59:40 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200006190859.KAA24689(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> X-Authentication-Warning: wintermute.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de: leypold set sender to leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de using -f From: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> To: kshuff(a)fast.net Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au In-reply-to: <394BA7D6.52DD(a)fast.net> (message from kshuff on Sat, 17 Jun 2000 12:31:18 -0400) Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive References: <0006171504.AA02620(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> <394BA7D6.52DD(a)fast.net> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > Delivered-To: leypold(a)lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de > Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 12:31:18 -0400 > From: kshuff <kshuff(a)fast.net> > Organization: I'm not organized > Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au > > Michael Sokolov wrote: > > > still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article. > > > > That might be fine and dandy for you, but other people do not share > your views > and should not have to be criticized or belittled because they run > more "modern" > hardware and not true UNIX. We're not all living 20 years in the > past. And some use emulators within modern systems to get a feel for 'the genuine article'. -- Markus Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA04779 for pups-liszt; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 20:36:13 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)cley.com> Mon Jun 19 20:32:14 2000 Received: from lostwithiel.cley.com (lostwithiel.cley.com [212.240.242.98]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA04775 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 20:36:07 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from tfb(a)lostwithiel.cley.com) Received: (from tfb@localhost) by lostwithiel.cley.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id LAA12830; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:32:15 +0100 (BST) X-Mailer: 21.1 (patch 10) "Capitol Reef" XEmacs Lucid (via feedmail 8 I); VM 6.72 under 21.1 (patch 10) "Capitol Reef" XEmacs Lucid From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)cley.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14669.63150.572660.30605(a)cley.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:32:14 +0100 (BST) To: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Cc: apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: The Unix History Graphing Project... In-Reply-To: <200006190811.KAA24592(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> References: <0006162041.AA01624(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20000616174408.A20743(a)rek.tjls.com> <20000616161053.F35577(a)dragon.nuxi.com> <m2wvjp88lr.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain> <200006190811.KAA24592(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk * Markus Leypold wrote: > On the other side, Michael has ventured, to port BSD4.3 to modern > VAXens (a noble enterprise in my eyes), Weell, I don't know about that. All them modern Vaxens aren't really *original* are they? Got microprocessors in, half of 'em. Never did hold with any kind of computer you didn't need a lorry to move, myself. --tim Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA04954 for pups-liszt; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 21:22:24 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Mon Jun 19 21:19:11 2000 Received: from mail2.panix.com (mail2.panix.com [166.84.0.213]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA04949 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 21:22:20 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from tls(a)panix.com) Received: from panix3.panix.com (panix3.panix.com [166.84.0.228]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21BC7156AE; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 07:19:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tls@localhost) by panix3.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id HAA23662; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 07:19:11 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 07:19:11 -0400 From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> To: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive Message-ID: <20000619071911.A23440(a)rek.tjls.com> Reply-To: tls(a)rek.tjls.com References: <007901bfd875$cb8aaea0$ab7a3fd1@oemcomputer> <200006190858.KAA24686(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200006190858.KAA24686(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>; from leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de on Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 10:58:21AM +0200 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 10:58:21AM +0200, Markus Leypold wrote: > > > > Delivered-To: leypold(a)lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de > > From: "Mike Allison" <mallison(a)konnections.com> > > Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:05:01 -0600 > > Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au > > > > I think I understand what Michael is saying. Or at least it means something > > to me. > > > > I don't have a lot vested here, nor have I always followed the issues with > > PUPS and now TUHS. > > > > Certainly a big part of this was running AT&T UNIX systems on these > > machines. And, TUHS might only ever be about UNIX as UNIX (R). > > Well, the demarcation lines are not wuite clearly drawn. Only > yesterday my eyes fell on a paragraph in Peter Salus Book: 4.xBSD > brought ... improvments ... also a port to the Intel 386/486 > Architecture by Bill Jolitz. Well, 386BSD became FreeBSD and it's > offspring. For those trying to keep track of the exact Unix history graph, it should be noted that the above history isn't quite right. Jolitz' original 386 port was partially done for CSRG and partially done for what became BSDI. A somewhat infamous falling-out during Usenix resulted in Jolitz *redoing* his 386 port and releasing it as 386BSD shortly after BSDI released BSD/386. BSD/386 0.0 was released, then 0.1. Jolitz kept saying things about "0.2" but it began to become clear to most people that it wouldn't be released soon, if ever. A semi-official "patchkit" sprung up, and soon most people were running 386BSD 0.1 plus patchkit X. Meanwhile, Adam Glass and Chris Demetriou and, soon, a small number of others, started work on what became NetBSD, a centrally managed free software project that sought to bring some CSRG-like focus to the 386BSD chaos. An early snapshot of this made its way to the patchkit folks, who declined for various reasons to participate. NetBSD 0.8 was released, and a little bit later the patchkit maintainers (mostly) released FreeBSD. Though there was new work -- and would eventually be a *lot* of new work -- there was also clearly a lot of code that came not from 386BSD or the patchkits but from that pre-0.8 NetBSD snapshot. Since these facts are pretty well known among the principals involved it's always been a mystery to me why Unix history graphs seem to get the later wiggles in the xBSD line all wrong. Thor Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA05220 for pups-liszt; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 22:41:55 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Donald Brownlee <db(a)aptant.com> Mon Jun 19 22:37:08 2000 Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA05216 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 22:41:51 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from db(a)aptant.com) Received: from aptant.com (pool0126.cvx19-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.244.126]) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3-EL_1_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA19498 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 05:38:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <394E13B9.19957855(a)aptant.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 05:37:08 -0700 From: Donald Brownlee <db(a)aptant.com> Reply-To: db(a)aptant.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: save everything Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk My $0.02: I once wondered whether the techniques of literary textual criticism could be used in order to determine whether a Linux, FreeBSD, groff -- whatever! -- is in any way derived from an earlier work. Textual criticism considers a work by examining several or all of the extant textual variations in an attempt to determine what the author originally wrote; it has been used to reconstruct the "original" texts of the ancient as well as some modern writers, such as James Joyce. It yields a tree of texts, in which the root is the "original," and the sibling children of any node are the descendants of a common, perhaps hypothetical, text. I don't know much else about it, except that its results may depend on alot of knowledge and informed speculation. The textual critics work bottom-up to arrive at an original text; I am thinking of a top-down process, working from an original text, to show that a work lower in a tree is derived from the original. If such a technique were valid at all, its validity would only be improved with the availablity of many, many "texts." The techniques might be more useful where, for example, there were several V7 tapes that people thought were original, but which, on inspection, turned out to be different. In this situation, textual criticism might be used to reconstruct a "true," V7 release tape, and, in this situation, would be a bottom-up application of the techniques. In any event, I think that it is important to preserve alot of tapes, and to keep them separate with as much information as possible about their pedigree. If someone ever did use such a technique -- or any other technique -- to reconstruct a "true" release, it is important that they document their work and not throw away the tapes that contributed to the "true" tape, because even more tapes may appear in the future which could lead to the reconstruction of an even truer tape. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA05638 for pups-liszt; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:09:12 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

Re: The Unix History Graphing Project...

by Eric Fischer

Tim Shoppa writes, > Is there a readable (meaning "not source code") history of *.*BSD > on the McCusick CD set? Most of the comment-type entries in the > Unix History Graphing Project for the BSD releases are pretty good, > but not real complete. Maybe this has already been covered sufficiently, but several of the BSD releases came with lists of what had changed since the previous versions. I've HTMLified the ones I have copies of at http://pobox.com/~enf/lore/unix/bsd/ eric Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA95323 for pups-liszt; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 10:26:24 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Cyrille Lefevre <clefevre(a)no-spam.citeweb.net> Sun Jun 18 10:23:21 2000 Received: from racine.cybercable.fr (racine.cybercable.fr [212.198.0.201]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA95319 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 10:26:18 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from root(a)gits.dyndns.org) Received: (qmail 3176149 invoked from network); 18 Jun 2000 00:23:23 -0000 Received: from r224m65.cybercable.tm.fr (HELO gits.dyndns.org) ([195.132.224.65]) (envelope-sender <root(a)gits.dyndns.org>) by racine.cybercable.fr (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; 18 Jun 2000 00:23:23 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by gits.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA11860; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 02:23:22 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from root) Posted-Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 02:23:22 +0200 (CEST) To: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive References: <0006171504.AA02620(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Reply-To: clefevre(a)citeweb.net X-Face: V|+c;4!|B?E%BE^{E6);aI.[<<r#uCVjK"~Ke!(a)0vxS/.,wki/c|uVnNV!BA-_gY2sfoGc3 f{#/$PT>97Zd*>^#%Y5Cxv;%Y[PT-LW3;A:fRrJ8+^k"e7@+30g0YD0*^^3jgyShN7o?a]C la*Zv'5NA,=963bM%J^o]C From: Cyrille Lefevre <clefevre(a)no-spam.citeweb.net> Date: 18 Jun 2000 02:23:21 +0200 In-Reply-To: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG's message of "Sat, 17 Jun 00 10:04:30 CDT" Message-ID: <em5vbzwm.fsf(a)pc166.gits.fr> X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.45/XEmacs 21.1 - "Canyonlands" Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) writes: [snip] > If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX. And > I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't care > about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are, they are > still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article. are you sure your name isn't "Rev. Don Kool" alias oldno7(a)home.com ? it's a joke :) Cyrille. -- home:mailto:clefevre@no-spam.citeweb.net Supprimer "no-spam." pour me repondre. work:mailto:Cyrille.Lefevre@no-spam.edf.fr Remove "no-spam." to answer me back.

24 years, 11 months

Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

David O'Brien <obrien(a)NUXI.com> wrote: > That is a fine opinion, and one understandable. BUT, I don't see Joy, > McKusick, or Lefler on your list. Their work is an *extension* of the Ritchie/Thompson original UNIX, not a replacement. 3BSD through 4.3BSD are direct logical successors of V7/32V research UNIX. > So why is it again that you do 4.3BSD > rather than some System III/V [...] Because I believe that 3BSD through 4.3BSD are the real trunk successors of V7 and 32V, not System III and System V (more affectionately known as Missed'em- five as you can see in the Jargon File). True UNIX is Research UNIX, UNIX that is for research purposes, not commercial ones. The AT&T Education Software License I have buried in my desk somewhere prohibits any commercial use. System III and V deserted this True UNIX mission, but Berkeley UNIX picked it up instead. Exactly the same later happened with 4.4BSD and 4.3BSD-Quasijarus. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)

24 years, 11 months

Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

kshuff <kshuff(a)fast.net> wrote: > That might be fine and dandy for you, but other people do not share > your views > and should not have to be criticized or belittled because they run > more "modern" > hardware and not true UNIX. We're not all living 20 years in the > past. Then why are you on this list? -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA93867 for pups-liszt; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 04:16:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> Sun Jun 18 04:13:45 2000 Received: from relay.nuxi.com (root(a)nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA93858 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 04:16:36 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from obrien(a)NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root(a)trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA65551; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:13:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien(a)dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id LAA05884; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:13:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:13:45 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive Message-ID: <20000617111345.H69941(a)dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien(a)NUXI.com References: <0006171504.AA02620(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <0006171504.AA02620(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG on Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:04:30AM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:04:30AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX. That is a fine opinion, and one understandable. BUT, I don't see Joy, McKusick, or Lefler on your list. So why is it again that you do 4.3BSD rather than some System III/V + 2BSD?? Joy & McKusick modified the AT&T kernel quite a bit. Or did you not know that they touched that code. -- -- David (obrien(a)NUXI.com) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA94035 for pups-liszt; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 04:44:49 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

David O'Brien <obrien(a)NUXI.com> wrote: > Not to mention we owe the entire Open Source BSD availability to Keith. > > [snipped description of how Bostic, like a murderous American surgeon, cut > out with his butcher knife all the Holy Original True Pure UNIX(R) code, the > code that made BSD Berkeley UNIX(R) and not just some little mortal *BSD, > and replaced it with cheap plastic prostetics] It is *this* that I consider Bostic the killer of CSRG, of True BSD, and of True UNIX for. I don't fscking care whether you call it free or not. The True UNIX code is free to those who have access to it, in the sense that they can make arbitrary modifications to it and freely redistribute it within the circle of accessees. Pure UNIX is completely open source: it is not usable at all without the source, so everyone who has it has the source. Either you have the source or you don't run UNIX. No binary-only distributions. Previously the circle of UNIX accessees was limited to universities, but then they were the only ones who could afford the hardware needed to run UNIX and the electric bills that come with it, so this really wasn't an issue. Someone who wasn't part of a university with a UNIX source license was almost certainly in no position to run UNIX or have an interest in it anyway. Now the situation has changed, and many people run PDP-11s and VAXen on a hobbyist basis in their homes, but the licensing situation has changed accordingly too: now it's a free clickwrap license. If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX. And I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't care about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are, they are still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA92914 for pups-liszt; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 01:24:42 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Soren S. Jorvang" <soren(a)wheel.dk> Sun Jun 18 01:21:41 2000 Received: from gnyf.wheel.dk (IDENT:root@gnyf.wheel.dk [193.162.159.104]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA92910 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 01:24:38 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from soren(a)gnyf.wheel.dk) Received: (from soren@localhost) by gnyf.wheel.dk (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA24275; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 17:21:41 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 17:21:41 +0200 From: "Soren S. Jorvang" <soren(a)wheel.dk> To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive Message-ID: <20000617172141.A24254(a)gnyf.wheel.dk> References: <0006171504.AA02620(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <0006171504.AA02620(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG on Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:04:30AM -0500 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:04:30AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > I think now is a good time for you to leave the PUPS list. -- Soren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA93266 for pups-liszt; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 02:07:23 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Mike Allison" <mallison(a)konnections.com> Sun Jun 18 02:05:01 2000 Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [207.173.185.6]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA93262 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 02:07:19 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from mallison(a)konnections.com) Received: from oemcomputer (ip122-171.konnections.com [209.63.122.171]) by mail.konnections.com (8.9.1/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA16996; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 09:56:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mallison(a)konnections.com) Message-ID: <007901bfd875$cb8aaea0$ab7a3fd1@oemcomputer> From: "Mike Allison" <mallison(a)konnections.com> To: "Michael Sokolov" <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>, <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:05:01 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk I think I understand what Michael is saying. Or at least it means something to me. I don't have a lot vested here, nor have I always followed the issues with PUPS and now TUHS. Certainly a big part of this was running AT&T UNIX systems on these machines. And, TUHS might only ever be about UNIX as UNIX (R). The fact that you COULD run a unix clone -- Linux, Open BSD, what have you is fine. We can argue that true BSD was a set of improvements or additions to UNIX which may even have been sanctioned in part by the UNIX team. But the fact that you run Linux, Open BSD, MINIX or a MSDOS clone is not pertinent to running UNIX System N.n Using the GNU C Compiler is not pertinent to the AT&T K&R C compiler, per se. Is the ultimate purpose then of the list to keep the machines running regardless of OS, or to run AT&T UNIX on these systems. I won't fault Michael for his perspective. But I guess we should agree to define the parameters of the list, or agree NOT to define them. Just one insignificant soul's opinion (JOISO) -Mike Mike Allison Stranded in Utah, USA -----Original Message----- From: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Date: Saturday, June 17, 2000 9:09 AM Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive >If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX. And >I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't care >about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are, they are >still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article. > Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA93311 for pups-liszt; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 02:20:27 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Sat Jun 17 09:09:00 2000 Received: from post3.fast.net (post3.fast.net [198.69.204.24]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA93307 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 02:20:23 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from kshuff(a)fast.net) Received: from homer (maxtnt14-abe-489.fast.net [209.92.93.235]) by post3.fast.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA01931 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 12:17:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <394BA7D6.52DD(a)fast.net> Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 12:31:18 -0400 From: kshuff <kshuff(a)fast.net> Reply-To: kshuff(a)fast.net Organization: I'm not organized X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive References: <0006171504.AA02620(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Michael Sokolov wrote: > If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX. And > I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't care > about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are, they are > still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article. > That might be fine and dandy for you, but other people do not share your views and should not have to be criticized or belittled because they run more "modern" hardware and not true UNIX. We're not all living 20 years in the past. K.S. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA93671 for pups-liszt; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 03:38:21 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

Re: The Unix History Graphing Project...

by pups＠mrynet.com

> On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > > Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> wrote: > > > > > Is there a readable (meaning "not source code") history of *.*BSD > > > on the McCusick CD set? Most of the comment-type entries in the > > > Unix History Graphing Project for the BSD releases are pretty good, > > > but not real complete. > > > > The line of True UNIX development is straight: > > > > V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe -> > > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus > > > > There is also a branch which I call Bostic BSD, resulting from Keith Bostic > > taking over CSRG and killing it, that goes: > > [... and more spewage ...] > > I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS > projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory > material of this nature on the lists. > > Thor I second some form of censure here. I already filter this person's email when I can, via my mail handler and client, but I am still subjected to his non-constructive constant arrogance when included in other's replies. Obviously I find his tact, social skills, and ethics reprehensible or I wouldn't have bothered taking the measures I have. Simply put, people are welcome to their opinions, but his are bordering anti-social and are downright rude and insulting. Everyone is welcome to opinions and points-of-view, but having such shoved in faces at every opportunity is intolerable. Regards, Scott G. Taylor Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA89002 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 09:13:49 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> Sat Jun 17 09:10:53 2000 Received: from relay.nuxi.com (root(a)nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA88997 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 09:13:45 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from obrien(a)NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root(a)trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA59906 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:10:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien(a)dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id QAA68731 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:10:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:10:53 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: The Unix History Graphing Project... Message-ID: <20000616161053.F35577(a)dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien(a)NUXI.com References: <0006162041.AA01624(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20000616174408.A20743(a)rek.tjls.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000616174408.A20743(a)rek.tjls.com>; from tls(a)rek.tjls.com on Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 05:44:08PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 05:44:08PM -0400, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote: > > > Most of the comment-type entries in the Unix History Graphing > > > Project for the BSD releases are pretty good, but not real > > > complete. > > > > The line of True UNIX development is straight: > > > > V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe -> > > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus > > > > There is also a branch which I call Bostic BSD, resulting from Keith Bostic > > taking over CSRG and killing it, that goes: > > [... and more spewage ...] > > I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS > projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory > material of this nature on the lists. I have to agree. From his emails, Mr. Solokov is a rather rabid individual. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA89013 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 09:14:36 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> Sat Jun 17 09:11:45 2000 Received: from relay.nuxi.com (root(a)nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA89009 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 09:14:31 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from obrien(a)NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root(a)trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA59924; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:11:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien(a)dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id QAA68746; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:11:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:11:45 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD-Alpha Message-ID: <20000616161145.G35577(a)dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien(a)NUXI.com References: <0006161927.AA01375(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <0006161927.AA01375(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG on Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 02:27:54PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 02:27:54PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > I know this of course, I have one. Of course you do, but others may not. So why are you wasting my disk space with this email? Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA89383 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:24:15 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "A. P. Garcia" <apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org> Sat Jun 17 10:16:48 2000 Received: from hackaholic.org (IDENT:qmailr@d174.as1.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net [169.207.130.240]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA89379 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:24:10 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org) Received: (qmail 484 invoked by uid 501); 17 Jun 2000 00:16:48 -0000 From: "A. P. Garcia" <apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: The Unix History Graphing Project... References: <0006162041.AA01624(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20000616174408.A20743(a)rek.tjls.com> <20000616161053.F35577(a)dragon.nuxi.com> Date: 17 Jun 2000 00:16:48 +0000 In-Reply-To: "David O'Brien"'s message of "Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:10:53 -0700" Message-ID: <m2wvjp88lr.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0804 (Gnus v5.8.4) Emacs/20.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> writes: > > I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS > > projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory > > material of this nature on the lists. > > I have to agree. From his emails, Mr. Solokov is a rather rabid individual. No, I agree with whomever it was - I think Patrick Henry - that said something like "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." You can always send his mail to /dev/null if you don't like it. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA89414 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:31:43 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Sat Jun 17 10:28:59 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA89410 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:31:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id KAA55686 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:28:59 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200006170028.KAA55686(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive In-Reply-To: <20000616174408.A20743(a)rek.tjls.com> from Thor Lancelot Simon at "Jun 16, 2000 5:44: 8 pm" To: Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:28:59 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Thor Lancelot Simon: > On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > > The line of True UNIX development is straight: > > V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe -> > > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus > I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS > projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory > material of this nature on the lists. > Thor While I do not agree with Michael's particular beliefs about True UNIX, as I wear the hat of UNIX Heritage Society, I want to encourage his efforts on 4.3BSD-Quasijarus, as I do with 2.11BSD, NetBSD etc etc. Michael, in order to ease the tension in the mailing lists, would it be possible for you to write a web (or ftp) page describing your beliefs, so that interested people can go read it. For example, in future mailings you could say: As you know, I believe True UNIX flows from V6 to 4.3BSD but not to 4.4BSD, see http://xxx.xxx.xxx for details. I'm not asking you to moderate your beliefs or stop espousing them, but I would rather keep the mailing list inclusive rather than divisive. For the other readers of this list, it is not possible to stop subscribers from saying whatever they want. Therefore, if you feel offended, please try to take any strong exchange of views out of the list. For example, you might post something like: In article by Joe Bloe: > I think turtles are ugly. I disagree violently with this person's views, and I'll take this discussion off-line, so as to keep in charter with the mailing list. I will also change the mailing lists's on-line charter to be inclusive and not divisive. Finally, we now have pups@ (PDP-11 stuff) and tuhs@ (generic Unix stuff, which includes discussion on the Archive). The original posting, and all the followups, should have gone to tuhs@, so please send your mails to the right list!!! Thank you, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA89425 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:32:05 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Sat Jun 17 10:29:13 2000 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA89421 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:32:01 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from SHOPPA(a)timaxp.trailing-edge.com) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:29:13 -0400 Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:29:13 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU Message-Id: <000616202913.262000b0(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: Yet Another "where does it fit" question Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Yesterday I asked: >Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS >Unix". Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's >different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-) Terry >didn't remember... Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between 2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.) Is this something worthwhile to put in the archive? At the moment, looking at the timeline of PDP-11 Unices currently in the archive, we have at the "fairly recent" end: 2.9 from 1983 2.9.1BSD from 1983 2.10BSD from 1987 2.10.1BSD from 1989 2.11BSD from the past year Would it be a worthwhile thing to put 2.10.2 up as an intermediate step filling in the ten year gap between 2.10.1 and the current 2.11? I'm worried that whenever I find a metric buttload of Unix tapes that my proposals of adding everything in them to the archive may just be adding too much volume that folks simply aren't interested in. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA89441 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:33:58 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Sat Jun 17 10:07:24 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA89437 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:33:56 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id KAA55766 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:31:14 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA89331; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:10:15 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id KAA55558; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:07:24 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200006170007.KAA55558(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Digest? In-Reply-To: <394A3D26.86E79289(a)home.com> from Robert Porter at "Jun 16, 2000 7:43:50 am" To: robport(a)home.com (Robert Porter) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:07:24 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society), tuhs(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Robert Porter: > Is there a way to unsubscribe from the PUPS/TUHS lists and subscribe to some > sort of digest? I just can't handle this amount of traffic (much more email > than I get otherwise). Send mail to majordomo(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au with the lines: unsubscribe tuhs unsubscribe pups subscribe pups-digest subscribe tuhs-digest Cheers! Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA89882 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 12:12:25 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sat Jun 17 12:09:00 2000 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA89878 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 12:12:20 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA24691; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 19:09:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 19:09:00 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200006170209.TAA24691(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU, SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com Subject: Re: Yet Another "where does it fit" question Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi -- I hope I'm in the right mailing list :) > From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> > Yesterday I asked: > > >Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS > >Unix". Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's > >different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-) Terry > >didn't remember... > > Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between > 2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by > Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.) Is this something You beat me to it - I was going to respond earlier but got distracted ("real work" the boss wanted ;)). It's more than half way to 2.11 though. Probably closer to 80 or 90%. The work had been going on for a year or more since 2.10.1 came out and I was all set to distribute it on my own when one of the last folks at the CSRG said it should be 2.11 (based on the size and number of changes) and a BSD release with USENIX handling the license issues and distribution. There aren't many major differences between 2.10.2SMS and what would be 2.11BSD a few months later (towards the end of 1990 or beginning of 1991). > timeline of PDP-11 Unices currently in the archive, we have at the > "fairly recent" end: > > 2.9 from 1983 > 2.9.1BSD from 1983 > 2.10BSD from 1987 > 2.10.1BSD from 1989 2.10.2.SMS goes till about the end of 1990 or beginning of 1991 > Would it be a worthwhile thing to put 2.10.2 up as an intermediate > step filling in the ten year gap between 2.10.1 and the current 2.11? I think it would be - I didn't save a copy for myself ;) A "diff -r" of that against the first 2.11 tape (which I think I might have somewhere) would be interesting to do some time. Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA90344 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 13:22:56 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Sat Jun 17 13:20:04 2000 Received: from mail2.panix.com (mail2.panix.com [166.84.0.213]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA90340 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 13:22:51 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from tls(a)panix.com) Received: from panix3.panix.com (panix3.panix.com [166.84.0.228]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F31515509; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 23:20:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tls@localhost) by panix3.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id XAA05112; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 23:20:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 23:20:04 -0400 From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> To: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive Message-ID: <20000616232004.A4545(a)rek.tjls.com> Reply-To: tls(a)rek.tjls.com References: <20000616174408.A20743(a)rek.tjls.com> <200006170028.KAA55686(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200006170028.KAA55686(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>; from wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au on Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:28:59AM +1000 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:28:59AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Thor Lancelot Simon: > > On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > > > The line of True UNIX development is straight: > > > V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe -> > > > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus > > I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS > > projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory > > material of this nature on the lists. > > Thor > > While I do not agree with Michael's particular beliefs about True UNIX, as > I wear the hat of UNIX Heritage Society, I want to encourage his efforts on > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus, as I do with 2.11BSD, NetBSD etc etc. While I largely agree with your sentiments, I note that in responding to my text above you have clipped out Michael's direct personal attack on Keith Bostic. I find this, um, fascinating. I'll also note that denying Mr. Solokov *this particular forum* for the spewage of his venom is hardly the kind of governmental interference with speech that another poster's quotation decried. I don't see why PUPS/TUHS should provide a general soapbox for shouting insults at the people who did a lot of the work PUPS/TUHS collect, catalog, and preserve. Thor Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA90790 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 14:57:58 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> Sat Jun 17 14:55:04 2000 Received: from relay.nuxi.com (root(a)nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA90786 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 14:57:54 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from obrien(a)NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root(a)trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA60868 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 21:55:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien(a)dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id VAA69857 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 21:55:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 21:55:04 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive Message-ID: <20000616215504.I35577(a)dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien(a)NUXI.com References: <20000616174408.A20743(a)rek.tjls.com> <200006170028.KAA55686(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> <20000616232004.A4545(a)rek.tjls.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000616232004.A4545(a)rek.tjls.com>; from tls(a)rek.tjls.com on Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 11:20:04PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 11:20:04PM -0400, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote: > I don't see why PUPS/TUHS should provide a general soapbox for shouting > insults at the people who did a lot of the work PUPS/TUHS collect, > catalog, and preserve. Not to mention we owe the entire Open Source BSD availability to Keith. Those that have not heard Kirk McKusick's "History of UNIX at Berkeley" talk should go read his "Twenty Years of Berkeley Unix From AT&T-Owned to Freely Redistributable" chapter in "Open Sources: Voices from the Open Source Revolution". This is on-line at http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/kirkmck.html. To quote: During one of our weekly group meetings at the CSRG, Keith Bostic brought up the subject of the popularity of the freely-redistributable networking release and inquired about the possibility of doing an expanded release that included more of the BSD code. Mike Karels and I pointed out to Bostic that releasing large parts of the system was a huge task, but we agreed that if he could sort out how to deal with reimplementing the hundreds of utilities and the massive C library then we would tackle the kernel. Privately, Karels and I felt that would be the end of the discussion. Undeterred, Bostic pioneered the technique of doing a mass net-based development effort. He solicited folks to rewrite the Unix utilities from scratch based solely on their published descriptions. Their only compensation would be to have their name listed among the Berkeley contributors next to the name of the utility that they rewrote. The contributions started slowly and were mostly for the trivial utilities. But as the list of completed utilities grew and Bostic continued to hold forth for contributions at public events such as Usenix, the rate of contributions continued to grow. Soon the list crossed one hundred utilities and within 18 months nearly all the important utilities and libraries had been rewritten. Proudly, Bostic marched into Mike Karels' and my office, list in hand, wanting to know how we were doing on the kernel. Resigned to our task, Karels, Bostic, and I spent the next several months going over the entire distribution, file by file, removing code that had originated in the 32/V release. With what we owe him, I do not think any continual bad mouthing of Keith should be tolerated. -- -- David (obrien(a)NUXI.com) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA91896 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 20:42:16 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk> Sat Jun 17 20:38:09 2000 Received: from anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.91]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA91892 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 20:42:11 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk) Received: from falstaf.demon.co.uk ([158.152.152.109]) by anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 133G0Y-000AxM-0X; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:39:23 +0100 Message-ID: <Hf1bqXARU1S5EwcL(a)ruffnready.co.uk> Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:38:09 +0100 To: obrien(a)NUXI.com Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au From: Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk> Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive References: <20000616174408.A20743(a)rek.tjls.com> <200006170028.KAA55686(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> <20000616232004.A4545(a)rek.tjls.com> <20000616215504.I35577(a)dragon.nuxi.com> In-Reply-To: <20000616215504.I35577(a)dragon.nuxi.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 5.00 U <YSkKJATYm0AxAbv6xwlBrCeVCW> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In message <20000616215504.I35577(a)dragon.nuxi.com>, David O'Brien <obrien(a)NUXI.com> writes >On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 11:20:04PM -0400, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote: >> I don't see why PUPS/TUHS should provide a general soapbox for shouting >> insults at the people who did a lot of the work PUPS/TUHS collect, >> catalog, and preserve. > >Not to mention we owe the entire Open Source BSD availability to Keith. > >Those that have not heard Kirk McKusick's "History of UNIX at Berkeley" >talk should go read his "Twenty Years of Berkeley Unix From AT&T-Owned to >Freely Redistributable" chapter in "Open Sources: Voices from the Open >Source Revolution". This is on-line at >http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/kirkmck.html. To quote: > > During one of our weekly group meetings at the CSRG, Keith Bostic > brought up the subject of the popularity of the > freely-redistributable networking release and inquired about the > possibility of doing an expanded release that included more of the > BSD code. Mike Karels and I pointed out to Bostic that releasing > large parts of the system was a huge task, but we agreed that if he > could sort out how to deal with reimplementing the hundreds of > utilities and the massive C library then we would tackle the kernel. > Privately, Karels and I felt that would be the end of the discussion. > > Undeterred, Bostic pioneered the technique of doing a mass net-based > development effort. He solicited folks to rewrite the Unix utilities > from scratch based solely on their published descriptions. Their > only compensation would be to have their name listed among the > Berkeley contributors next to the name of the utility that they > rewrote. The contributions started slowly and were mostly for the > trivial utilities. But as the list of completed utilities grew and > Bostic continued to hold forth for contributions at public events > such as Usenix, the rate of contributions continued to grow. Soon > the list crossed one hundred utilities and within 18 months nearly > all the important utilities and libraries had been rewritten. > > Proudly, Bostic marched into Mike Karels' and my office, list in > hand, wanting to know how we were doing on the kernel. Resigned to > our task, Karels, Bostic, and I spent the next several months going > over the entire distribution, file by file, removing code that had > originated in the 32/V release. > >With what we owe him, I do not think any continual bad mouthing of Keith >should be tolerated. > Seconded!!! ____________________________________________________________________ Robin Birch robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD Old computers and radios always welcome Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA91880 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 20:40:26 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk> Sat Jun 17 20:36:15 2000 Received: from anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.91]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA91876 for <PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 20:40:20 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk) Received: from falstaf.demon.co.uk ([158.152.152.109]) by anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 133Fyd-000Auo-0X; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:37:24 +0100 Message-ID: <G$mbSLAfS1S5EweW(a)ruffnready.co.uk> Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:36:15 +0100 To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Cc: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com From: Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk> Subject: Re: Yet Another "where does it fit" question References: <200006170209.TAA24691(a)moe.2bsd.com> In-Reply-To: <200006170209.TAA24691(a)moe.2bsd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 5.00 U <YSkKJATYm0AxAbv6xwlBrCeVCW> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In message <200006170209.TAA24691(a)moe.2bsd.com>, Steven M. Schultz <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> writes >Hi -- > > I hope I'm in the right mailing list :) > >> From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> >> Yesterday I asked: >> >> >Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS >> >Unix". Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's >> >different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-) Terry >> >didn't remember... >> >> Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between >> 2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by >> Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.) Is this something > I think it would be - I didn't save a copy for myself ;) > For what it's worth I think this brings in an interesting branch to the archive. Should there be a space for stuff we should hold for purely historical reference purposes and a different one for stuff that would normally be interesting to the average user group punter?. This might have some effects on the archive structure. Robin ____________________________________________________________________ Robin Birch robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD Old computers and radios always welcome Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA92845 for pups-liszt; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 01:08:39 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

Re: The Unix History Graphing Project...

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> wrote: > Is there a readable (meaning "not source code") history of *.*BSD > on the McCusick CD set? Most of the comment-type entries in the > Unix History Graphing Project for the BSD releases are pretty good, > but not real complete. The line of True UNIX development is straight: V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe -> 4.3BSD-Quasijarus There is also a branch which I call Bostic BSD, resulting from Keith Bostic taking over CSRG and killing it, that goes: 4.BSD-Tahoe -> Net/1 -> 4.3BSD-Reno -> Net/2 -> 4.4BSD-Alpha -> 4.4BSD 1BSD and 2BSD were collections of userland bits without a kernel or a compiler toolchain or anything else that defines a system and its hardware platform, so it's generally incorrect to consider them as versions of UNIX, much less as versions of PDP-11 UNIX. They were bits to be added to an existing UNIX system, which could conceptualy be anything, although V6 and V7 for the PDP-11 were the intended targets. Berkeley UNIX never ran on PDP-11s, only on VAXen, that is, there has never been a Berkeley UNIX kernel or compiler toolchain for the PDP-11, only for the VAX. As for 2.xBSD, that's an ex-post-facto backport of BSD UNIX to PDP-11s, ex-post-facto in the sense that it was made after the torch of UNIX passed from PDP-11 to VAX, and is a human-alien hybrid of PDP-11 V7 on steroids with dumbed down VAX 4.xBSD. It comes nowhere near to mainline UNIX or mainline BSD. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA88616 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 07:47:06 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Sat Jun 17 07:44:08 2000 Received: from mail2.panix.com (mail2.panix.com [166.84.0.213]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA88612 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 07:46:59 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from tls(a)panix.com) Received: from panix3.panix.com (panix3.panix.com [166.84.0.228]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86CB6155AB for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 17:44:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tls@localhost) by panix3.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id RAA20868 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 17:44:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 17:44:08 -0400 From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: The Unix History Graphing Project... Message-ID: <20000616174408.A20743(a)rek.tjls.com> Reply-To: tls(a)rek.tjls.com References: <0006162041.AA01624(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <0006162041.AA01624(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG on Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> wrote: > > > Is there a readable (meaning "not source code") history of *.*BSD > > on the McCusick CD set? Most of the comment-type entries in the > > Unix History Graphing Project for the BSD releases are pretty good, > > but not real complete. > > The line of True UNIX development is straight: > > V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe -> > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus > > There is also a branch which I call Bostic BSD, resulting from Keith Bostic > taking over CSRG and killing it, that goes: [... and more spewage ...] I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory material of this nature on the lists. Thor Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA88970 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 09:05:53 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

4.4BSD-Alpha in the TUHS/PUPS archive 4BSD area

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Quasijarus Consortium members and TUHS/PUPS archive users, Today Tim Shoppa has read the HP300 4.4BSD-Alpha distribution on a 9-track 6250 BPI tape and I have just put it in the archive. It is in Distributions/4bsd/4.4BSD-Alpha Of course we generally don't do 4.4BSD, but we do include it in the archival and preservation section of our project. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA88281 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 06:18:49 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Sat Jun 17 06:16:00 2000 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA88277 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 06:18:45 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from SHOPPA(a)timaxp.trailing-edge.com) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:16:00 -0400 Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:16:00 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU Message-Id: <000616161600.262000b2(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: The Unix History Graphing Project... Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >It may have already been discussed before, but here is the list of >distirbutions on McKusick's "The CSRG Archives" 4-CD set: > >1BSD, 2BSD, 3BSD, 2.9pucc, 2.10, 2.79, 2.8, 2.9, 4.0, 4.1, 4.1a, 4.1c.1, >4.1c.2, 4.1.snap, 4.2, 4.3, VM.snapshot.1, VM.snapshot.2, 4.3Tahoe, >4.3Reno, Net/1, Net/2, 4.4, 4.4-Lite1, 4.4-Lite2, and /usr/src SCCS >files. That suggestion got me looking at "The Unix History Graphing Project" at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/Unix_History/index.html Is there a readable (meaning "not source code") history of *.*BSD on the McCusick CD set? Most of the comment-type entries in the Unix History Graphing Project for the BSD releases are pretty good, but not real complete. Do any of the Ultrix versions show up somewhere in the The Unix History Graphing project? I know that they're offshoots from 2BSD and 4BSD, but I wouldn't mind seeing someone annotate when they shot off and what was changed/added/deleted. (Did I just volunteer?!?) Another history question: Anyone know if there's any 2.9BSD-Seismo distributions kicking around? Tim. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA88374 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 06:45:23 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

Re: 4.4BSD-Alpha

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

David O'Brien <obrien(a)NUXI.com> wrote: > It may have already been discussed before, but here is the list of > distirbutions on McKusick's "The CSRG Archives" 4-CD set: > > 1BSD, 2BSD, 3BSD, 2.9pucc, 2.10, 2.79, 2.8, 2.9, 4.0, 4.1, 4.1a, 4.1c.1, > 4.1c.2, 4.1.snap, 4.2, 4.3, VM.snapshot.1, VM.snapshot.2, 4.3Tahoe, > 4.3Reno, Net/1, Net/2, 4.4, 4.4-Lite1, 4.4-Lite2, and /usr/src SCCS > files. I know this of course, I have one. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)

24 years, 11 months

Re: 4.4BSD-Alpha

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> wrote: > I found a separate tape, labeled "August 23, 1992", with a matching cover > letter (signed by Kirk McKusick) saying "This is a distribution tape > for the 4.4BSD-Alpha release ... The binaries and kernel on the > tape support the HP 9000/300 68000-based workstations...". Is this > the holy grail? OK, I dunno whether it qualifies as "the holy grail" or not, but yes, it is the 4.4BSD-Alpha dist. > I would guess the "4.4BSD snapshot 4/1/92" is pre-release. OK, just upload both if you can, I'll be happy to put them in the archive and I'm sure Warren will be too. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA84892 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 02:42:25 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com> Sat Jun 17 02:31:18 2000 Received: from sam.on-net.net (sam.on-net.net [204.117.190.8]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA84888 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 02:42:21 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jasomill(a)shaffstall.com) Received: from guildenstern.shaffstall.com (cisdn-2 [206.229.84.2]) by sam.on-net.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA05790 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:37:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:31:18 -0500 (EST) From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: RX50 vocoder timing; FreeBSD kernel woes Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006161046320.22889-100000(a)guildenstern.shaffstall.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Sorry in advance if you unintentionally deleted this message because of the topic, I'm an incorrigable smart-arse and couldn't resist. My other idea was ILOVEYOU, but that's been done before... > This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others) > read this list for. The initiator of this post was yours truly. I have been silet since this post. I hate politics. I figured, "just let it simmer down and then rationally respond." I hate flamefesten. Sorry. Can't please everybody all the time. Hey, I don't even try, most of the time. I find that sitting on the fence can be quite an uncomfortable position to be in, especially if you're on one of the fenceposts. But, wie immer, I digress. I didn't mean to crowd your (that is, the royal "your") mailbox with my hardware woes. I had some issues, directly related to my _usage_ of PDP-11 UNIX, and, insofar as both the mentioned PDP-11 mailing list and the DECUS PDP-11 list on eisner.decus.org are both ghost towns, and several members of this mailing list seem to know quite a bit about both the hardware platform and the software I choose to run (2.11BSD), I dreamt of things that never were and said "why not." Thanks to the knowledge of fellow list-members, my questions were answered, my problem was solved, and the result is now available in the PUPS archive under Tools/Disks/rx50-FreeBSD.tar.gz (no comments on code quality to the group, please; that would be off-topic [read: embarassing] :) Qs and Cs to jasomill(a)indiana.edu welcome), which is useful to me and may possibly be of some interest to other PDP-11 UNIX hobbyists trying to solve the same problem. I read the entire PUPS mailing list archive before making my first post. I've noticed that the top three platform-specific topics seem to be (in order of appearance): 1) emulator software 2) VAX hardware 3) PDP hardware I don't use an emulator and I don't have a VAX (though I want one very very much, but admittably to run VMS mostly), but the discussions don't bother me. As a matter of fact, some of them interest me; those that don't, I skip. Anyway, just an observation. I know it's not the PHPS, but I can not be dissuaded in my belief that actually _using_ the systems is a vital part of a living preservation effort, and using them without functional hardware is a bit difficult, emulators notwithstanding. But please don't deactivate me :), I'll read a UHS list and a PUPS list and a VAX list and an RT-PC list (I've been wanting to get my hands on one of those buggers for awhile, actually), desirous of everything at the same time, and try my best not to yawn and say commonplace things (apologizes to Jack Kerouac). Thanks again for help and interesting discussion, to all parties involved, mad to talk or less so. What about archiving PDP hardware information? I don't mean discussing obscure timing details of RK05 controllers or anything, but having a section of the archive for random hardware tidbits re: PDP. It's not _directly_ related to UNIX preservation, but it'd be a boon to PDP UNIX users (not to mention keeping list traffic down in re: these things), and its space requirements are miniscule. Maybe wait until the PDP-specific stuff is split off, and create a directory. I'd be happy to maintain it (I'm also attempting to contact DEC ne Compaq about getting some legacy docs released; those, of course, would be included; no, that's not what Mentec bought, I don't think, that's RSX and RSTS/E and RT-11, maybe even Ultrix. They provide engineering support to DEC PDP-11 customers as well as compatible hardware, but I believe Compaq still owns the copyrights to the Digital hardware documentation. Not 100% sure though). Once again, sorry, once again, thanks, and in closing, AWWWW, jasomill Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA87825 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 05:14:27 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> Sat Jun 17 05:11:28 2000 Received: from relay.nuxi.com (root(a)nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA87821 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 05:14:22 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from obrien(a)NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root(a)trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA58858 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:11:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien(a)dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id MAA67489 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:11:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:11:28 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD-Alpha Message-ID: <20000616121128.A35577(a)dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien(a)NUXI.com References: <0006161444.AA00776(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <0006161444.AA00776(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG on Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 09:44:07AM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk It may have already been discussed before, but here is the list of distirbutions on McKusick's "The CSRG Archives" 4-CD set: 1BSD, 2BSD, 3BSD, 2.9pucc, 2.10, 2.79, 2.8, 2.9, 4.0, 4.1, 4.1a, 4.1c.1, 4.1c.2, 4.1.snap, 4.2, 4.3, VM.snapshot.1, VM.snapshot.2, 4.3Tahoe, 4.3Reno, Net/1, Net/2, 4.4, 4.4-Lite1, 4.4-Lite2, and /usr/src SCCS files. -- -- David (obrien(a)NUXI.com) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA87954 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 05:31:49 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

4.2BSD dist in the TUHS/PUPS archive: resolution

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Quasijarus Consortium members and TUHS/PUPS archive users, Since early fall 1998 the archive has had an incomplete distribution of 4.2BSD reconstructed from some bogus tape images from Per Andersson. This morning Tim Shoppa read an authentic 4.2BSD tape dist. I compared it with the incomplete dist in the archive and found that it is the same dist, Tim Shoppa's version is complete and correct, and Per Andersson's version was incomplete. The files that were in the archive were correct. I added the missing files this morning, making the 4.2BSD dist in the archive complete. It is in Distributions/4bsd/4.2BSD, it is a superset of what was there before (because what was there before was just missing some files), and it identically matches Tim Shoppa's copy in his home directory. I left Per Andersson's original (bogus) files in the Per_Andersson subdirectory. Warren, it's up to you if you want to keep or delete them. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA84202 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 00:48:04 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

Re: Yet Another "where does it fit" question

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> wrote: > * A 4.3BSD-Reno VAX tape dated "1/2/91". I suppose I have to get down > on my hands and knees and see how this differs from the version dated > "30 Jul 90" currently in Distributions/4bsd/4.3BSD-Reno. This has > the original UCB stickers on it. Yes. > * A set of tar files on a tape claiming to be the "4.4BSD snapshot > 4/1/92". Is PUPS/TUHS collecting anything anything this late? Is > something like this already in Kirk's archive? Kirk, you'll have to fill me in on this one. Is this the "4.4BSD-Alpha" I've seen mentioned in some places? In any case this is not on Kirk's CD-ROMs and I'll include it in my 4BSD collection. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA82759 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 00:09:54 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Sat Jun 17 00:07:07 2000 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA82755 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 00:09:50 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from SHOPPA(a)timaxp.trailing-edge.com) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:07:07 -0400 Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:07:07 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU Message-Id: <000616100707.2620009e(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: 4.4BSD-Alpha Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >> * A set of tar files on a tape claiming to be the "4.4BSD snapshot >> 4/1/92". Is PUPS/TUHS collecting anything anything this late? Is >> something like this already in Kirk's archive? >Kirk, you'll have to fill me in on this one. Is this the "4.4BSD-Alpha" I've >seen mentioned in some places? In any case this is not on Kirk's CD-ROMs and >I'll include it in my 4BSD collection. I found a separate tape, labeled "August 23, 1992", with a matching cover letter (signed by Kirk McKusick) saying "This is a distribution tape for the 4.4BSD-Alpha release ... The binaries and kernel on the tape support the HP 9000/300 68000-based workstations...". Is this the holy grail? I would guess the "4.4BSD snapshot 4/1/92" is pre-release. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA84172 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 00:40:20 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

Re: Bunch of Unix tapes rescued

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> wrote: > And Tapes 6 and 7 seem to be a complete distribution set of 4.2BSD, > they ought to form a good replacement for the supposedly damaged and > incomplete set in /Distributions/4bsd/4.2BSD. > > [contents skipped, perfectly matches CSRG 4.2BSD dist] Yes, please read them and I'll put them in the archive. I maintain the 4BSD area. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA78621 for pups-liszt; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:06:55 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Fri Jun 16 12:04:11 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA78617 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:06:53 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id MAA46483; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:04:11 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200006160204.MAA46483(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Bunch of Unix tapes rescued In-Reply-To: <000615210631.262000b2(a)trailing-edge.com> from Tim Shoppa at "Jun 15, 2000 9: 6:31 pm" To: SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:04:11 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Tim Shoppa: > On an Expedition to NJ Tuesday, I rescued about 3/4 of a ton of magtapes. > Tape 1: > > AT&T 60462 > Unix System V Release 2.0 > VAX Version 2 for 11/780 and 11/750 > TPName: Root and Selectables Yes please, I have sysVR0 in the archive at the moment. > Tape 2: > AT&T 60463 > Unix System V Release 2.0 > VAX Version 2 for 11/780 and 11/750 > TPName: USR File System Yes please. Don't have it yet! > Tape 3: > UNIX* System III > PDP 11/70,45 - 800 BPI Could be the same as Distributions/usdl/SysIII, but read it anyway! > And Tapes 6 and 7 seem to be a complete distribution set of 4.2BSD, > they ought to form a good replacement for the supposedly damaged and > incomplete set in /Distributions/4bsd/4.2BSD. Again, yes please!!! Thanks Tim. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA79038 for pups-liszt; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:27:36 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Fri Jun 16 13:24:51 2000 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA79034 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:27:32 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from SHOPPA(a)timaxp.trailing-edge.com) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:24:51 -0400 Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:24:51 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU Message-Id: <000615232451.262000b2(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: Bunch of Unix tapes rescued Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > Again, yes please!!! Would it be useful if I also uploaded GIF's or JPG's or TIFF's of scans of the labels on the original tapes? If so, is there any preference for the format of the scan? These are all (as Tommy Smothers would say) "the original virgin" tapes. Tim. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA81018 for pups-liszt; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 18:07:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Fri Jun 16 18:04:53 2000 Received: from toulon.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (toulon.Informatik.Uni-Tuebingen.De [134.2.12.9]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA81014 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 18:07:42 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de) Received: from informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (wintermute [134.2.12.56]) by toulon.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A8B71067; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:04:55 +0200 (MST) Received: (from leypold@localhost) by informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA12190; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:04:53 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:04:53 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200006160804.KAA12190(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> X-Authentication-Warning: wintermute.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de: leypold set sender to leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de using -f From: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> To: SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com Cc: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU In-reply-to: <000615210631.262000b2(a)trailing-edge.com> (message from Tim Shoppa on Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:06:31 -0400) Subject: Re: Bunch of Unix tapes rescued References: <000615210631.262000b2(a)trailing-edge.com> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk WOW. Great. Super !! :-) ------------------ > Delivered-To: leypold(a)lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de > Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:06:31 -0400 > From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> > Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au > > On an Expedition to NJ Tuesday, I rescued about 3/4 of a ton of magtapes. > Some of these will probably be interesting for the PUPS archive. In particular, > I'm reading through seven of 'em tonight. If someone could explain to > me how "Unix System V Release 2.0" and "Unix System III" work into the > grand scheme of AT&T Unices already in the PUPS archive, and how 2.9.1 BSD > might be different from (or the same as) the 2.9 BSD stuff already in the > archive, I'd forever appreciate it :-). > > The first two tapes are AT&T Unix System V tapes for VAXen: > > Tape 1: > > AT&T 60462 > Unix System V Release 2.0 > VAX Version 2 for 11/780 and 11/750 > TPName: Root and Selectables > > AT&T 60462 > Dwg: j1p077c-3 List:1M1 > TP No: OTP-1P550-01 IS: 2.0V2 > Order: VX501404 Spec:000 Item:1 > BPI 1600 Max Blksize: 05120 Files:0009 > Date:01/13/86 Opr: jlc Drv: tu-2 > > > Tape 2: > AT&T 60463 > Unix System V Release 2.0 > VAX Version 2 for 11/780 and 11/750 > TPName: USR File System > > AT&T 60463 > Dwg: j1p077c-3 List:2m2 > TP No: OTP-1P550-02 IS: 2.0V2 > Order: UX501404 Spec:000 Item:1 > BPI 1600 Max Blksize: 05120 Files:0009 > Date:01/13/86 Opr: jlc Drv: tu-0 > > > The third tape is UNIX System III from AT&T: > > Tape 3: > UNIX* System III > PDP 11/70,45 - 800 BPI > Release Tape #1 > *UNIX is a trademark of Bell Laboratories > > Restricted Rights > Use Duplication or Disclosure is Subject > To Restrictions Stated in your contract with > American Telephone & Telegraph > > The Fourth and Fifth tape are either 2.9BSD or 2.9.1BSD (I > can't tell the difference until I compare these tapes with the > files already in the PUPS archives): > > Tape 4: > > Berkeley UNIX (Rev. 2.9.1) 2.9BSD > Sun Nov 20 14:55:50 PST 1983 > 800 BPI HT/TM boot tape. For tar files > skip the first 7 tape files with > ``mt -t /dev/nrmt0 fsf 7'' > Reel 1 of 2 Tape # > > Tape 5: > Berkeley UNIX (Rev. 2.9.1) 2.9BSD > Sun Nov 20 14:55:50 PST 1983 > 800 BPI Tar of /usr/src > Reel 2 of 2 > > And Tapes 6 and 7 seem to be a complete distribution set of 4.2BSD, > they ought to form a good replacement for the supposedly damaged and > incomplete set in /Distributions/4bsd/4.2BSD. > > Tape 6: > 4.2bsd VAX UNIX System 8/23/83 > 6 files on tape: > 1 (boot stuff) 2 (mini root) > 3 ((root dump) 4 (/sys) 5 (/usr) > 6 (/usr/lib/vfont) > last three are tar; 1600 bpi > > Tape 7: > 4.2bsd VAX UNIX System 8/23/83 > tape 2: 3 files on tape > 1 (/usr/src) > 2 (user contributed software) > 3 (/usr/ingres) > all files are tar; 1600 bpi > > Like I said, there's about 3/4 of a ton of tapes in total, I'm sure there > are some other PUPS-related goodies deeper in the pile... > > -- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > > Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA81036 for pups-liszt; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 18:10:53 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Fri Jun 16 18:08:07 2000 Received: from toulon.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (toulon.Informatik.Uni-Tuebingen.De [134.2.12.9]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA81032 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 18:10:49 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de) Received: from informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (wintermute [134.2.12.56]) by toulon.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEBC51067; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:08:08 +0200 (MST) Received: (from leypold@localhost) by informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA12196; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:08:07 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:08:07 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200006160808.KAA12196(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> X-Authentication-Warning: wintermute.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de: leypold set sender to leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de using -f From: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> To: SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com Cc: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU In-reply-to: <000615232451.262000b2(a)trailing-edge.com> (message from Tim Shoppa on Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:24:51 -0400) Subject: Re: Bunch of Unix tapes rescued References: <000615232451.262000b2(a)trailing-edge.com> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > Delivered-To: leypold(a)lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de > Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:24:51 -0400 > From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> > Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au > > > Again, yes please!!! > > Would it be useful if I also uploaded GIF's or JPG's or TIFF's of scans > of the labels on the original tapes? If so, is there any preference for > the format of the scan? These are all (as Tommy Smothers > would say) "the original virgin" tapes. Well, I'm presently only a client of the archive, so to say, but why not use png (the gif replacement advocated by the FSF). Better not use GIF for all this licensing issues. And as far as I see, png can be shown by -- well -- Netscape, whereas TIFF requires a plugin or an external viewer. Regards - Markus Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA81738 for pups-liszt; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 21:24:43 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Fri Jun 16 21:21:56 2000 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA81734 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 21:24:38 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from SHOPPA(a)timaxp.trailing-edge.com) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 7:21:56 -0400 Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 7:21:56 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU Message-Id: <000616072156.262000b2(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Yet Another "where does it fit" question Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk OK, I started sorting through some more piles of tapes, and I found a one more thing that I'm-not-quite-sure-where-it-fits: Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS Unix". Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-) Terry didn't remember... Also, more goodies that may (or may not) be appropriate to add: * A 4.3BSD-Reno VAX tape dated "1/2/91". I suppose I have to get down on my hands and knees and see how this differs from the version dated "30 Jul 90" currently in Distributions/4bsd/4.3BSD-Reno. This has the original UCB stickers on it. * A set of tar files on a tape claiming to be the "4.4BSD snapshot 4/1/92". Is PUPS/TUHS collecting anything anything this late? Is something like this already in Kirk's archive? Tim. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA81919 for pups-liszt; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 22:03:25 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

Help reviewing PDP-11 model processors

by lars brinkhoff

The following message is a courtesy copy of an article that has been posted to alt.sys.pdp11 as well. Time for the second round of assembler source code review. If the user specifies a PDP-11 model to the assembler (e.g. -m11/45), this code is used to tell the assembler what processor to assemble for. Also, in one case (11/34a), the model enables FP-11 floating-point instructions. Should this be done for 11/34c too? If there are any other models with otherwise optional features installed, I'd like to know. if (strcmp (arg, "03") == 0) /* 11/03 */ return set_cpu_model ("kd11f"); /* KD11-F */ else if (strcmp (arg, "04") == 0) /* 11/04 */ return set_cpu_model ("kd11d"); /* KD11-D */ else if (strcmp (arg, "05") == 0 || /* 11/05 or 11/10 */ strcmp (arg, "10") == 0) return set_cpu_model ("kd11b"); /* KD11-B */ else if (strcmp (arg, "15") == 0 || /* 11/15 or 11/20 */ strcmp (arg, "20") == 0) return set_cpu_model ("ka11"); /* KA11 */ else if (strcmp (arg, "21") == 0) /* 11/21 */ return set_cpu_model ("t11"); /* T11 */ else if (strcmp (arg, "24") == 0) /* 11/24 */ return set_cpu_model ("f11"); /* F11 */ else if (strcmp (arg, "34") == 0) /* 11/34 */ return set_cpu_model ("kd11e"); /* KD11-E */ else if (strcmp (arg, "34a") == 0) /* 11/34a */ return set_cpu_model ("kd11e") && /* KD11-E with FP-11 */ set_option ("fpp"); else if (strcmp (arg, "35") == 0 || /* 11/35 or 11/40 */ strcmp (arg, "40") == 0) return set_cpu_model ("kd11da"); /* KD11-A */ else if (strcmp (arg, "44") == 0) /* 11/44 */ return set_cpu_model ("kd11dz"); /* KD11-Z */ else if (strcmp (arg, "45") == 0 || /* 11/45/50/55/70 */ strcmp (arg, "50") == 0 || strcmp (arg, "55") == 0 || strcmp (arg, "70") == 0) return set_cpu_model ("kb11"); /* KB11 */ else if (strcmp (arg, "60") == 0) /* 11/60 */ return set_cpu_model ("kd11k"); /* KD11-K */ else if (strcmp (arg, "53") == 0 || /* 11/53/73/83/84/93/94 */ strcmp (arg, "73") == 0 || strcmp (arg, "83") == 0 || strcmp (arg, "84") == 0 || strcmp (arg, "93") == 0 || strcmp (arg, "94") == 0) return set_cpu_model ("j11"); /* J11 */ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA78381 for pups-liszt; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:09:19 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Fri Jun 16 11:06:31 2000 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA78377 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:09:14 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from SHOPPA(a)timaxp.trailing-edge.com) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:06:31 -0400 Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:06:31 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU Message-Id: <000615210631.262000b2(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Bunch of Unix tapes rescued Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On an Expedition to NJ Tuesday, I rescued about 3/4 of a ton of magtapes. Some of these will probably be interesting for the PUPS archive. In particular, I'm reading through seven of 'em tonight. If someone could explain to me how "Unix System V Release 2.0" and "Unix System III" work into the grand scheme of AT&T Unices already in the PUPS archive, and how 2.9.1 BSD might be different from (or the same as) the 2.9 BSD stuff already in the archive, I'd forever appreciate it :-). The first two tapes are AT&T Unix System V tapes for VAXen: Tape 1: AT&T 60462 Unix System V Release 2.0 VAX Version 2 for 11/780 and 11/750 TPName: Root and Selectables AT&T 60462 Dwg: j1p077c-3 List:1M1 TP No: OTP-1P550-01 IS: 2.0V2 Order: VX501404 Spec:000 Item:1 BPI 1600 Max Blksize: 05120 Files:0009 Date:01/13/86 Opr: jlc Drv: tu-2 Tape 2: AT&T 60463 Unix System V Release 2.0 VAX Version 2 for 11/780 and 11/750 TPName: USR File System AT&T 60463 Dwg: j1p077c-3 List:2m2 TP No: OTP-1P550-02 IS: 2.0V2 Order: UX501404 Spec:000 Item:1 BPI 1600 Max Blksize: 05120 Files:0009 Date:01/13/86 Opr: jlc Drv: tu-0 The third tape is UNIX System III from AT&T: Tape 3: UNIX* System III PDP 11/70,45 - 800 BPI Release Tape #1 *UNIX is a trademark of Bell Laboratories Restricted Rights Use Duplication or Disclosure is Subject To Restrictions Stated in your contract with American Telephone & Telegraph The Fourth and Fifth tape are either 2.9BSD or 2.9.1BSD (I can't tell the difference until I compare these tapes with the files already in the PUPS archives): Tape 4: Berkeley UNIX (Rev. 2.9.1) 2.9BSD Sun Nov 20 14:55:50 PST 1983 800 BPI HT/TM boot tape. For tar files skip the first 7 tape files with ``mt -t /dev/nrmt0 fsf 7'' Reel 1 of 2 Tape # Tape 5: Berkeley UNIX (Rev. 2.9.1) 2.9BSD Sun Nov 20 14:55:50 PST 1983 800 BPI Tar of /usr/src Reel 2 of 2 And Tapes 6 and 7 seem to be a complete distribution set of 4.2BSD, they ought to form a good replacement for the supposedly damaged and incomplete set in /Distributions/4bsd/4.2BSD. Tape 6: 4.2bsd VAX UNIX System 8/23/83 6 files on tape: 1 (boot stuff) 2 (mini root) 3 ((root dump) 4 (/sys) 5 (/usr) 6 (/usr/lib/vfont) last three are tar; 1600 bpi Tape 7: 4.2bsd VAX UNIX System 8/23/83 tape 2: 3 files on tape 1 (/usr/src) 2 (user contributed software) 3 (/usr/ingres) all files are tar; 1600 bpi Like I said, there's about 3/4 of a ton of tapes in total, I'm sure there are some other PUPS-related goodies deeper in the pile... -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA78462 for pups-liszt; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:34:34 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

Re: New: PDP-11 Unix Mailing List

by William King

Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA67358 for pups-liszt; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 21:39:21 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Wed Jun 14 19:32:07 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA67354 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 21:39:19 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id VAA36479 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 21:36:51 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from junk.nocrew.org (mail(a)[212.73.17.42]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA66909 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 19:34:59 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from lars(a)junk.nocrew.org) Received: from lars by junk.nocrew.org with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au id 1329Wp-0003Na-00; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:32:07 +0200 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Help reviewing processor features From: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Date: 14 Jun 2000 11:32:07 +0200 In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey's message of "Mon, 12 Jun 2000 11:49:12 -0700" Message-ID: <85itvcbobs.fsf_-_(a)junk.nocrew.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk The following is source code taken verbatim from my PDP-11 support code for the GNU assembler. Any help correcting errors would be appreciated. This code tells the assembler what instruction set features to recognize depending on what processor the user wants to assemble for. Individual features can also be enabled, e.g. if a processor option is installed. The instruction set features are: cis Commersial instruction set (optional on all processors?). csm CSM instruction. eis Extended instruction set: MUL, DIV, ASH, ASHC, and all of limited-eis. fis KEV11 floating-point instructions. fpp FP-11 floating-point instructions. limited-eis Limited extended instruction set: RTT, MARK, SXT, XOR, SOB. mfpt MFPT instruction. multiproc Multiprocessor instructions: TSTSET, WRTLCK. mxps MFPS and MTPS instructions. spl SPLx instructions. ucode Microcode instructions: LDUB, MED, XFC. if (strncmp (buf, "a", 1) == 0) /* KA11 (11/15/20) */ return 1; /* no extensions */ else if (strncmp (buf, "b", 1) == 0) /* KB11 (11/45/50/55/70) */ return set_option ("eis") && set_option ("spl"); else if (strncmp (buf, "da", 2) == 0) /* KD11-A (11/35/40) */ return set_option ("limited-eis"); else if (strncmp (buf, "db", 2) == 0 || /* KD11-B (11/05/10) */ strncmp (buf, "dd", 2) == 0) /* KD11-D (11/04) */ return 1; /* no extensions */ else if (strncmp (buf, "de", 2) == 0) /* KD11-E (11/34) */ return set_option ("eis") && set_option ("mxps"); else if (strncmp (buf, "df", 2) == 0 || /* KD11-F (11/03) */ strncmp (buf, "dh", 2) == 0 || /* KD11-H (11/03) */ strncmp (buf, "dq", 2) == 0) /* KD11-Q (11/03) */ return set_option ("limited-eis") && set_option ("mxps"); else if (strncmp (buf, "dk", 2) == 0) /* KD11-K (11/60) */ return set_option ("eis") && set_option ("mxps") && set_option ("ucode"); else if (strncmp (buf, "dz", 2) == 0) /* KD11-Z (11/44) */ return set_option ("csm") && set_option ("eis") && set_option ("mfpt") && set_option ("mxps") && set_option ("spl"); else if (strncmp (buf, "f", 1) == 0) /* F11 (11/24) */ return set_option ("eis") && set_option ("mfpt") && set_option ("mxps"); else if (strncmp (buf, "j", 1) == 0) /* J11 (11/53/73/83/84/93/94)*/ return set_option ("csm") && set_option ("eis") && set_option ("mfpt") && set_option ("multiproc") && set_option ("mxps") && set_option ("spl"); else if (strncmp (buf, "t", 1) == 0) /* T11 (11/21) */ return set_option ("limited-eis") && set_option ("mxps");

24 years, 11 months

New Unix Heritage List, was Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE

by Warren Toomey

In article by David O'Brien: > I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I > guess one needs to be created) would be possible. I will create one today or tomorrow: tuhs(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Unix Heritage pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au PDP-11 Unix You will all be subscribed to both lists. To be removed from a list, send e-mail to majordomo(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au with the line unsubscribe pups, or unsubscribe tuhs For those on the digested list (twice weekly), ditto except unsubscribe pups-digest, or unsubscribe tuhs-digest I will announce the new list(s) using them as a vehicle soon. That way, the announcement becomes some test mail :) Until then, tolerate the system-specific e-mail for just a bit longer. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA57976 for pups-liszt; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 08:57:48 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> Tue Jun 13 08:55:42 2000 Received: from relay.nuxi.com (root(a)nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA57972 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 08:57:44 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from obrien(a)NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root(a)trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA33183; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:55:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien(a)dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id PAA33560; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:55:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:55:42 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> To: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: New Unix Heritage List, was Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE Message-ID: <20000612155542.G27421(a)dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien(a)NUXI.com References: <20000609152354.A60849(a)dragon.nuxi.com> <200006122250.IAA24777(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200006122250.IAA24777(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>; from wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au on Tue, Jun 13, 2000 at 08:50:48AM +1000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, Jun 13, 2000 at 08:50:48AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by David O'Brien: > > I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I > > guess one needs to be created) would be possible. Hi Warren, I was wrong for my email. The feed back has been that people like the combined list. I have to admit I too like to see some of the PDP-11 info. I just felt the last thread had gotten off topic when it moved on to purely PDP-11 hardware. I have been told I was wrong. -- -- David (obrien(a)NUXI.com) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA58018 for pups-liszt; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:08:23 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue Jun 13 09:05:56 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA58014 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:08:21 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id JAA24939; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:05:56 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200006122305.JAA24939(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: New Unix Heritage List, was Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE In-Reply-To: <20000612155542.G27421(a)dragon.nuxi.com> from "David O'Brien" at "Jun 12, 2000 3:55:42 pm" To: obrien(a)NUXI.com Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:05:56 +1000 (EST) Cc: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by David O'Brien: > I was wrong for my email. The feed back has been that people like the > combined list. I have to admit I too like to see some of the PDP-11 > info. I just felt the last thread had gotten off topic when it moved on > to purely PDP-11 hardware. I have been told I was wrong. > -- David (obrien(a)NUXI.com) Everybody, here is a person who has courage & honesty. Thanks for that, David. However, I will still create two groups, because it will allow more specific content to be addressed where relevant. Cheers! Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA58497 for pups-liszt; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:45:22 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue Jun 13 10:40:04 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA58493 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:45:20 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id KAA25646 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:43:00 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA58474 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:42:25 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id KAA25608 for pups@minnie; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:40:04 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200006130040.KAA25608(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: New: PDP-11 Unix Mailing List To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:40:04 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hello, This is to inform you that you are subscribed to the PDP Unix Preservation Society's mailing list at pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au. This list is specifically to deal with running versions of Unix on the PDP-11 platforms. If you are not interested in this topic, please send some e-mail to majordomo(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au with the folllwing line in the body of the message: unsubscribe pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au If you are subscribed to the digest version, then you can unsubscribe by sending e-mail to majordomo(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au with the folllwing line in the body of the message: unsubscribe pups-digest(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Cheers! Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA60574 for pups-liszt; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 18:09:44 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Tue Jun 13 18:07:05 2000 Received: from toulon.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (toulon.Informatik.Uni-Tuebingen.De [134.2.12.9]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA60570 for <PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 18:09:40 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de) Received: from informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (wintermute [134.2.12.56]) by toulon.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98E551062; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:07:05 +0200 (MST) Received: (from leypold@localhost) by informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA54220; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:07:05 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:07:05 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200006130807.KAA54220(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> X-Authentication-Warning: wintermute.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de: leypold set sender to leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de using -f From: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> To: tfb(a)cley.com Cc: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au In-reply-to: <14660.61330.622418.671382(a)cley.com> (message from Tim Bradshaw on Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:11:30 +0100 (BST)) Subject: Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD) References: <000609165909.20200fd8(a)trailing-edge.com> <20000609152354.A60849(a)dragon.nuxi.com> <14660.61330.622418.671382(a)cley.com> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > Delivered-To: leypold(a)lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de > From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)cley.com> > Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:11:30 +0100 (BST) > Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au > > * David O'Brien wrote: > > > This goes back to the UHS / PUPS discussion. I didn't vote so before, > > but maybe it is time to separate the mail for the two. I agree that the > > first posts were interesting in the historical insight that could be > > gained. But this thread has turned into a rather long hardware > > discussion applicable to only a handful of people that have this > > hardware. > > > I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I > > guess one needs to be created) would be possible. > > Please don't. I love reading discussions of random old bits of > hardware, and such discussions have gone on on the PUPS list for a > long time. So do I. Actually I can understand the need of some participants to somehow reduce their mail volume. On the other side, it seems to be quite difficult to draw the exact line between on- and offtopic. Personally I try to filter as good as I can, and admittedly I do not read everything at once (and sometimes only weeks later). Regards -- Markus Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA63516 for pups-liszt; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 05:00:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Jun 13 04:49:12 2000 Received: from sydney.worldwide.lemis.com ([216.88.157.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA63512 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 05:00:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from grog(a)sydney.worldwide.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA00661; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 11:49:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 11:49:12 -0700 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Future Direction for PUPS and UHS Message-ID: <20000612114912.G242(a)sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> References: <200006010025.KAA49471(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <200006010025.KAA49471(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Thursday, 1 June 2000 at 10:25:34 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > All, > A discussion has started up on the PUPS volunteers list about the > future direction we should take in terms of the PUPS Archive. > > For those people new to this list, here's a bit of background. Originally > I set up the PDP-11 UNIX Preservation Society, the mailing list and the > Archive as that was my interest. > > Since then, we've attracted people with interests in other Unixes, such > as the 4BSDs, and other hardware platforms such as the Vax, the 68k Suns > etc. > > A while back, I changed the charter of the mailing list to encompass any > Unix-related questions, epecially to those systems which are now treated > as `ancient' by the mainstream, even if they are being maintained (e.g > 2.11BSD and the Quasijarus project). > > I also tried to create an umbrella organisation, the Unix Heritage Society > (http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/) which would allow a number of groups > like PUPS and Quasijarus to form, and so that we could co-ordinate their > efforts. I must admit I haven't put much effort into this idea. > > Now, the PUPS Archive (PUPS in name, but it contains lots more than PDP-11 > stuff) is accumulating more and more stuff. Some people want to see a > mainly PDP-11 archive, other want to try and archive everything before it > goes off to /dev/null. > > So, I want to survey the mailing list here for ideas about the charter of > the Unix Heritage Society, and a way of setting up one or multiple archives, > mailing lists, web pages etc. as I originally envisioned. > > Questions: > - should we keep one archive, or have multiple archives? I don't really think it makes any difference. Structure one archive well, and you can get the individual platform archives simply by going down a directory level. The problem is, of course, that some software can be relevant to multiple platforms. > - if one, what structure (divisions on platforms, on vendors etc.) I'd be inclined to go for the hardware platform, but I haven't thought it through. Ultimately it would probably depend on the nature of the software that came in. > - if you have a keen interest in one platform/system, would you > consider becoming the leader of an interest group that could > sit under the Unix Heritage Society umbrella? No, I don't think so. But you might be able to twist my arm. > - do you want to set up and maintain a more specific archive, > mailing list, web site, that the Unix Heritage Society could > point to? No. > - do you want this current mailing list to stay ``all-encompassing'', > or would you rather have more specific lists? Personally I'd like it to be all-encompassing, but then, it's only a small part of the 1000 messages I get per day, and it's easy to delete messages I don't want to read. > [ now stands back for the deluge! ] That really happened, didn't it? Greg -- Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers

24 years, 11 months

problems booting 2.11_rp_unknown

by Christian Groessler

Hi, (Sorry if this is a FAQ) I'm trying to boot the 2.11_rp_unknown image from Boot_Images. This is what happens: ---------------------- gibbon:/net/scharfzahn/playing/boot_images$ pdp11 PDP-11 simulator V2.3d sim> set cpu 18b sim> att rp0 2.11_rp_unknown sim> boot rp 53Boot from xp(0,0,0) at 0176700 : xp(0,0,0)unix Boot: bootdev=05000 bootcsr=0176700 2.11 BSD UNIX #11: Tue Jan 6 16:57:02 MET 1998 root@pdp11.begemot.com:/usr/src/sys/HIPPON panic: buffers no fs on dev 10/0 dumping to dev 5001 off 512 dump args:EINVAL HALT instruction, PC: 006606 (JSR R5,3162) sim> ---------------------- What am I doing wrong? regards, chris Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA51856 for pups-liszt; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 09:41:54 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mon Jun 12 09:36:45 2000 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA51851 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 09:41:49 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA12888; Sun, 11 Jun 2000 16:36:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 16:36:45 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200006112336.QAA12888(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: cpg(a)aladdin.de, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: problems booting 2.11_rp_unknown Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > From: "Christian Groessler" <cpg(a)aladdin.de> > > I'm trying to boot the 2.11_rp_unknown image from Boot_Images. > This is what happens: > > PDP-11 simulator V2.3d > sim> set cpu 18b Try "set cpu 22b" instead. Using 18b tells the simulator you have a 248kb (and 8kb for the I/O page) machine and that is not enough for 2.11 to load and allocate all the resources it needs. > panic: buffers Yep -that panic message says the kernel could not allocate any memory for the buffer cache. I am almost certain that means there is not enough free memory left out of 248kb. > What am I doing wrong? Try telling the emulator to use "22bit" mode. If that still fails let us know. Then it will be time for "Plan B" ;) Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA52060 for pups-liszt; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:45:16 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Christian Groessler" <cpg(a)aladdin.de> Mon Jun 12 10:37:24 2000 Received: from saturn.aladdin.de (saturn.aladdin.de [194.123.19.66]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA52056 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:45:11 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from cpg(a)aladdin.de) Received: by saturn.aladdin.de(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.2 (693.3 8-11-1998)) id 412568FC.00097079 ; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 02:43:06 +0100 X-Lotus-FromDomain: AKS From: "Christian Groessler" <cpg(a)aladdin.de> To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Message-ID: <412568FC.00096F95.00(a)saturn.aladdin.de> Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 01:37:24 +0100 Subject: Re: problems booting 2.11_rp_unknown Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On 06/11/2000 11:36:45 PM GMT "Steven M. Schultz" wrote: > >> >> PDP-11 simulator V2.3d >> sim> set cpu 18b > > Try "set cpu 22b" instead. Using 18b tells the simulator you have > a 248kb (and 8kb for the I/O page) machine and that is not enough > for 2.11 to load and allocate all the resources it needs. > >> panic: buffers > > Yep -that panic message says the kernel could not allocate any > memory for the buffer cache. I am almost certain that means > there is not enough free memory left out of 248kb. > >> What am I doing wrong? > > Try telling the emulator to use "22bit" mode. If that still > fails let us know. Then it will be time for "Plan B" ;) Hmm, sorry, it still doesn't work: --------------------- gibbon:/net/scharfzahn/playing/boot_images$ pdp11 PDP-11 simulator V2.3d sim> set cpu 22b sim> att rp0 2.11_rp_unknown sim> boot rp 53Boot from xp(0,0,0) at 0176700 : xp(0,0,0)unix Boot: bootdev=05000 bootcsr=0176700 2.11 BSD UNIX #11: Tue Jan 6 16:57:02 MET 1998 root@pdp11.begemot.com:/usr/src/sys/HIPPON panic: buffers no fs on dev 10/0 dumping to dev 5001 off 512 dump args:EINVAL HALT instruction, PC: 006606 (JSR R5,3162) sim> --------------------- What is "Plan B"? :-) regards, chris Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA52223 for pups-liszt; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 11:41:50 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mon Jun 12 11:33:37 2000 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA52219 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 11:41:46 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA13674; Sun, 11 Jun 2000 18:33:37 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 18:33:37 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200006120133.SAA13674(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: cpg(a)aladdin.de, sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Subject: Re: problems booting 2.11_rp_unknown Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > From: "Christian Groessler" <cpg(a)aladdin.de> > Hmm, sorry, it still doesn't work: > sim> set cpu 22b > sim> att rp0 2.11_rp_unknown > sim> boot rp > What is "Plan B"? :-) Plan B is to specify the amount of memory directly. Simply saying "set cpu 22B" tells the emulator to use 22 bit addressing - but it does not say how much memory the system has (it's possible to have 1mb of memory even though ~4mb is possible). Try using both "set cpu 22B" and "set cpu 2048K" - that worked here. It may well be that only "set cpu 2048K" is actually needed - I didn't try that by itself. Script started on Sun Jun 11 18:30:40 2000 moe.1-> cat f set cpu 22B set cpu 2048K att rp0 rp boot rp moe.2-> pdp11 f PDP-11 simulator V2.3d 53Boot from xp(0,0,0) at 0176700 : : xp(0,0,0)unix Boot: bootdev=05000 bootcsr=0176700 2.11 BSD UNIX #11: Tue Jan 6 16:57:02 MET 1998 root@pdp11.begemot.com:/usr/src/sys/HIPPON attaching lo0 phys mem = 2097152 avail mem = 1668352 user mem = 307200 January 8 06:50:29 init: configure system lp 0 csr 177514 vector 200 attached rl 0 csr 174400 vector 160 attached tm 0 csr 172520 vector 224 attached xp 0 csr 176700 vector 254 attached cn 1 csr 176500 vector 300 skipped: No CSR. cn 2 csr 176510 vector 310 skipped: No CSR. cn 3 csr 176520 vector 320 skipped: No CSR. cn 4 csr 176530 vector 330 skipped: No CSR. erase, kill ^U, intr ^C # halt syncing disks... done halting HALT instruction, PC: 000014 (MOV #1,12456) sim> q Goodbye moe.3-> exit exit Script done on Sun Jun 11 18:30:59 2000 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA55064 for pups-liszt; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 23:39:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Christian Groessler" <cpg(a)aladdin.de> Mon Jun 12 23:34:47 2000 Received: from saturn.aladdin.de (saturn.aladdin.de [194.123.19.66]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA55060 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 23:39:35 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from cpg(a)aladdin.de) Received: by saturn.aladdin.de(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.2 (693.3 8-11-1998)) id 412568FC.00505777 ; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:37:32 +0100 X-Lotus-FromDomain: AKS From: "Christian Groessler" <cpg(a)aladdin.de> To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Message-ID: <412568FC.005055C9.00(a)saturn.aladdin.de> Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 14:34:47 +0100 Subject: Re: problems booting 2.11_rp_unknown Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On 06/12/2000 01:33:37 AM GMT "Steven M. Schultz" wrote: > > Plan B is to specify the amount of memory directly. Simply saying > "set cpu 22B" tells the emulator to use 22 bit addressing - but it > does not say how much memory the system has (it's possible to have > 1mb of memory even though ~4mb is possible). > > Try using both "set cpu 22B" and "set cpu 2048K" - that worked here. > > It may well be that only "set cpu 2048K" is actually needed - I didn't > try that by itself. It works :-) :-) Thanks for your help! regards, chris Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA55279 for pups-liszt; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 00:14:34 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)cley.com> Tue Jun 13 00:11:30 2000 Received: from lostwithiel.cley.com (lostwithiel.cley.com [212.240.242.98]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA55275 for <PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 00:14:29 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from tfb(a)lostwithiel.cley.com) Received: (from tfb@localhost) by lostwithiel.cley.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id PAA20719 for PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:11:31 +0100 (BST) X-Mailer: 21.1 (patch 10) "Capitol Reef" XEmacs Lucid (via feedmail 8 I); VM 6.72 under 21.1 (patch 10) "Capitol Reef" XEmacs Lucid From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)cley.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14660.61330.622418.671382(a)cley.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:11:30 +0100 (BST) To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD) In-Reply-To: <20000609152354.A60849(a)dragon.nuxi.com> References: <000609165909.20200fd8(a)trailing-edge.com> <20000609152354.A60849(a)dragon.nuxi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk * David O'Brien wrote: > This goes back to the UHS / PUPS discussion. I didn't vote so before, > but maybe it is time to separate the mail for the two. I agree that the > first posts were interesting in the historical insight that could be > gained. But this thread has turned into a rather long hardware > discussion applicable to only a handful of people that have this > hardware. > I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I > guess one needs to be created) would be possible. Please don't. I love reading discussions of random old bits of hardware, and such discussions have gone on on the PUPS list for a long time. --tim

24 years, 11 months

RX02 diskettes

by Jason T. Miller

> And in those cases, you loose as well. The RX02 uses a micro-engine to > control the drive. No chip controller can switch density in the middle > of > the track, so RX02 floppies will forever be in the domain of RX02 drives > only. Funny thing. I read 'em on my PS/2. I Am Not Making This Up. No prefabricated single-chip floppy controller, methinks... -jtm Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA38020 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 07:01:22 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Sat Jun 10 06:59:09 2000 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA38016 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU>; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 07:01:17 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from SHOPPA(a)timaxp.trailing-edge.com) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 16:59:09 -0400 Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 16:59:09 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Message-Id: <000609165909.20200fd8(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD) Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others) > read this list for. I *think* you wrote this in reply to Steven Schultz's message, (at least that's the impression I got from the headers indicating it was a direct reply to his message), but that doesn't make much sense because what he wrote about was *exactly* on target for what this list is about: Running Unix on PDP-11's. OK, his jabs at Solaris probably weren't exactly on topic, but let's look at what else he discussed: * The disklabel implementation on 2.11BSD and its roots in other Unices. * The history of MSCP drivers in 2.11BSD and other BSD-derived Unices. * Efficient use of DHQ and DHV async multiplexers in Unix. * The history of sh, csh, and tcsh, some introduction to how they use overlays on PDP-11 Unices, and the application of split I/D techniques to their operation. All of these are, IMHO, very worthy topics of discussion for a mailing list about PDP-11 Unix, and they were all direct from the expert on the subject(s). What else would a subscriber to the PUPS list be looking for? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA38149 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 07:23:38 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Gael Queri <gqueri(a)mail.dotcom.fr> Sat Jun 10 07:20:51 2000 Received: from baoule.ath.cx (daemon(a)ppp-44-48-96.wmar.club-internet.fr [213.44.48.96]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA38142 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 07:23:32 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from gqueri(a)mail.dotcom.fr) Received: (from gael@localhost) by baoule.ath.cx (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e59LKp129969 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 23:20:51 +0200 Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 23:20:51 +0200 From: Gael Queri <gqueri(a)mail.dotcom.fr> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: tcsh on 2.11BSD Message-ID: <20000609232051.A28762(a)baoule.ath.cx> References: <200006082258.IAA05733(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006090801130.8604-100000(a)guildenstern.shaffstall.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.1.11i In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006090801130.8604-100000(a)guildenstern.shaffstall.com>; from jasomill(a)shaffstall.com on Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 08:13:49AM -0500 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.16 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 08:13:49AM -0500, Jason T. Miller wrote: > > I thought there was a port of an early tcsh to 2.*BSD? Maybe I have poor > > memory. Anyway, I believe that Minix has a very tiny editline(), which > > could be squeezed into the 2.11BSD csh to give you command-line editing. > Yup. There's a tcsh included in 2.11BSD; thing is, I'm partial to the > Bourne shell. Hence, a project. And did you try to do something with pdksh? It's smaller than tcsh and it has filename completion and support for reentrant history (contrary to bash) look at ftp.cs.mun.ca:/pub/pdksh/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA38483 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 08:25:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> Sat Jun 10 08:23:55 2000 Received: from relay.nuxi.com (root(a)nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA38479 for <PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 08:25:36 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from obrien(a)NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root(a)trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA03297; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 15:23:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien(a)dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id PAA60924; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 15:23:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 15:23:55 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> To: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Cc: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD) Message-ID: <20000609152354.A60849(a)dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien(a)NUXI.com References: <000609165909.20200fd8(a)trailing-edge.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <000609165909.20200fd8(a)trailing-edge.com>; from SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com on Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 04:59:09PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 04:59:09PM -0400, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others) > > read this list for. > > I *think* you wrote this in reply to Steven Schultz's message, (at least Yes, I wrote it in reply to Steven's message. Not it as not directed directly at Steven, it is for everyone that is engaged in this hardware discussion. > All of these are, IMHO, very worthy topics of discussion for a mailing > list about PDP-11 Unix, and they were all direct from the expert on the > subject(s). What else would a subscriber to the PUPS list be looking for? This goes back to the UHS / PUPS discussion. I didn't vote so before, but maybe it is time to separate the mail for the two. I agree that the first posts were interesting in the historical insight that could be gained. But this thread has turned into a rather long hardware discussion applicable to only a handful of people that have this hardware. I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I guess one needs to be created) would be possible. -- -- David (obrien(a)NUXI.com) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA39191 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 11:34:36 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Sat Jun 10 11:32:24 2000 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA39187 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 11:34:32 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from SHOPPA(a)timaxp.trailing-edge.com) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 21:32:24 -0400 Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 21:32:24 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU Message-Id: <000609213224.20200fd8(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD) Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >> > This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others) >> > read this list for. >> >> I *think* you wrote this in reply to Steven Schultz's message, (at least >Yes, I wrote it in reply to Steven's message. Not it as not directed >directly at Steven, it is for everyone that is engaged in this hardware >discussion. Actually, Steven did a *very* good job at turning a hardware-oriented discussion to issues very much related to the history and maintainence of Unix. Besides, if anyone here wants to really know about RX50 interleaving, they should go read one of CJL's posts from the Lasnerian early 90's to alt.sys.pdp8/PDP8-LOVERS about RX50 interleave. I swear, it was a tome that was a good chunk of a megabyte long. >> All of these are, IMHO, very worthy topics of discussion for a mailing >> list about PDP-11 Unix, and they were all direct from the expert on the >> subject(s). What else would a subscriber to the PUPS list be looking for? >This goes back to the UHS / PUPS discussion. I didn't vote so before, >but maybe it is time to separate the mail for the two. I agree that the >first posts were interesting in the historical insight that could be >gained. But this thread has turned into a rather long hardware >discussion applicable to only a handful of people that have this >hardware. I view it the other way - the original posts offered little historical insight, but the last one by Steven drew it very much back to Unix. >I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I >guess one needs to be created) would be possible. Indeed, there is a PDP-11 mailing list (info-pdp11(a)village.org) already, gatewayed to the Usenet newsgroup vmsnet.pdp-11. To a large extent, though, you can't blame members of the PUPS mailing list from occasionally straying from "Unix in general" to the "PDP-11 in particular", because that's a good part of what the list was originally created for (even though you might not have joined until the The Unix Heritage Society solidified...) If there was a more general "Unix Heritage Society" mailing list, would platform-specific discussions be banned from that? I probably would be bored to tears by any such restrictions, as there would be no opportunities to give concrete examples. Tim. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA39261 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 11:57:16 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Sat Jun 10 11:54:48 2000 Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (root(a)wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA39257 for <PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 11:57:09 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from grog(a)wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA63170; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 11:24:48 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 11:24:48 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> Cc: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>, PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD) Message-ID: <20000610112448.K81728(a)wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <000609165909.20200fd8(a)trailing-edge.com> <20000609152354.A60849(a)dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <20000609152354.A60849(a)dragon.nuxi.com> Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Friday, 9 June 2000 at 15:23:55 -0700, David O'Brien wrote: > On Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 04:59:09PM -0400, Tim Shoppa wrote: >>> This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others) >>> read this list for. >> >> I *think* you wrote this in reply to Steven Schultz's message, (at least > > Yes, I wrote it in reply to Steven's message. Not it as not directed > directly at Steven, it is for everyone that is engaged in this hardware > discussion. > >> All of these are, IMHO, very worthy topics of discussion for a mailing >> list about PDP-11 Unix, and they were all direct from the expert on the >> subject(s). What else would a subscriber to the PUPS list be looking for? > > This goes back to the UHS / PUPS discussion. I didn't vote so before, > but maybe it is time to separate the mail for the two. I agree that the > first posts were interesting in the historical insight that could be > gained. But this thread has turned into a rather long hardware > discussion applicable to only a handful of people that have this > hardware. > > I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I > guess one needs to be created) would be possible. Well, FWIW this *is* the PDP-11 list. But I thought it was interesting way beyond the PDP-11 aspect. Some of these things (write-protected labels, for example) still shape FreeBSD, for example. I don't think we really have enough mail to justify two lists. Most of us probably ditch more than 50% of their mail every day anyway; if this doesn't interest you, why not just delete it? Greg -- Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers

24 years, 11 months

Re: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again....

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote: > Thanks to Michael for reminding me exactly what the situation with > the optimizer and kernel builds under 4.3 is. Though I think he > forgot to mention "inline" (ack! pffffft!)... :-) We do use inline of course. I love it. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA37569 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 05:39:28 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> Sat Jun 10 05:37:25 2000 Received: from relay.nuxi.com (root(a)nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA37565 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 05:39:19 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from obrien(a)NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root(a)[209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA02370; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 12:37:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien(a)dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id MAA49090; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 12:37:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 12:37:25 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Cc: jasomill(a)shaffstall.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD) Message-ID: <20000609123725.S55675(a)dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien(a)NUXI.com References: <200006091842.LAA18214(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200006091842.LAA18214(a)moe.2bsd.com>; from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com on Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 11:42:16AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others) read this list for.

24 years, 11 months

Re: tcsh on 2.11BSD

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Jason T. Miller <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com> wrote: > (my loving father having discarded my > DECmate II as junk about ten years ago). Then call your nearest DEC dealer, get a quote on the replacement price, and sue your dad for the cost! Or report him to NKVD for vandalism of socialist property. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA34141 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 01:19:23 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Roger Ivie <rivie(a)teraglobal.com> Sat Jun 10 01:16:50 2000 Received: from ns1.teraglobal.com (ns1.teraglobal.com [63.210.171.3]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA34137 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 01:19:19 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from rivie(a)teraglobal.com) Received: from [10.10.50.26] (208.186.13.23) by ns1.teraglobal.com with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2.2); Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:16:57 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rivie(a)ns1.teraglobal.com Message-Id: <v0421010ab566b93d974a(a)[10.10.50.26]> In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0006090342330.4154-100000(a)lizard.indiana.edu> References: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0006090342330.4154-100000(a)lizard.indiana.edu> Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:16:50 -0600 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au From: Roger Ivie <rivie(a)teraglobal.com> Subject: Re: RX50 read/write on FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Jason Miller wrote: >(not only >does it only support stdin and stdout, but it uses both 'goto' and the >ternary operator; I tend to deeply offend the C style gods, late at >night when I think nobody's watching) Could be worse. I deeply offend the C style gods right in the open where everyone can see. Since I'm pretty much a hardware type, I do _everything_ in state machines. While that works great for everything from hardware to Prolog, it does mean my code tends to assume the only available control structure is "if( expr ) goto state;". My attitude is that the state diagram is the program, the code is just an implementation detail. I used to work for a company that did TURBOchannel devices. I did the device drivers for all the platforms (VAX/VMS, Alpha/VMS, Ultrix, and OSF/1) and I shipped source code (it wasn't a conscious decision on the part of management; since I got to build the distribution kits, the source code was included and management simply didn't argue with me). One day I got a letter from someone who had just bought our TURBOchannel parallel printer port offering to go through the code and remove all those evil gotos for the low, low price of only $100 a page. I declined the offer. -- Roger Ivie rivie(a)teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA37120 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 03:55:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Sat Jun 10 03:53:05 2000 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.uu.se [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA37116 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 03:55:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from bqt(a)Update.UU.SE) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA10654; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 19:53:06 +0200 Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 19:53:05 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> cc: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again.... In-Reply-To: <20000608113634.A26968(a)rek.tjls.com> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000609195015.10628B-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote: > On Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 05:46:55PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > > jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > > > > > Oh, yes. My VS4000m60 needs only 36 hours to go through a "make build". > > > This is pure luxury. > > > > And 4.3BSD-Quasijarus completes its make build on my CSRG dev mill, which is a > > KA655 (3.8 VUPs, whereas your KA46 is 12 VUPs), in a little under 4 hours. The > > GENERIC vmunix kernel is another 30 minutes. > > My experience with compilers on the VAX leads me to believe that the > substantial "savings" seen over NetBSD or post-4.3 BSD distributions here > is almost entirely due to the compiler and options used. If Quasijarus > builds like CSRG 4.3 did, with pcc, it can't even use the optimizer *at all* > for the kernel build, due to severe bugs; either way, pcc runs a lot faster > than gcc though it generates code that runs a whole lot slower. Um. Let me put it this way... Userland is a *lot* smaller in 4.3 than NetBSD... How much time do you think that makes up? The same goes for the kernel. It's not that 4.3 is faster per se, just that it has a lot less to build. > I'd be willing to bet that gcc -O0 would build NetBSD at least ten times > as fast as gcc -O2; the VAX is (as we all know ;-)) a "rather complex" > processor, with "rather complex" instruction patterns, gcc is not the > swiftest of compilers in the first place, and it does a *lot* of work. True. > Slow machines *are* good for demonstrating how good your compiler is; > I recall that rebuilding "compress" with gcc on my 750, way back when, > pretty much doubled the amount of Usenet news I could handle in a day. :-) :-) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA37260 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 04:45:23 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sat Jun 10 04:42:16 2000 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA37256 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 04:45:09 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA18214; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 11:42:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 11:42:16 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200006091842.LAA18214(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: jasomill(a)shaffstall.com, sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com> > > write: Read-only file system > > 2+0 records in > > 2+0 records out > That's what I get. Oh - ok. I must have misread the initial posting that indicated the complete copy went thru dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/ra12a 800+0 records in 800+0 records out If the writing of the floppy bailed out after "2+0" then it is no wonder the compare later fails - only the first sector was written. > > After doing the "disklabel -W ra9" the "dd" works fine and the floppy > > compares identical to the input file. > > Still haven't tried it. Had to watch the Pacers game and get some needed > sleep. Sleep I can understand :) I really think (and sure hope!) that write enabling the label area will fix the problem. Having to do a "disklabel -W" on a disk before doing 'raw' I/O was a change that came in when labels were implemented. Before labels the tables were compiled into the driver and 'raw' I/O could scribble all over the disk and the system would still know about the partitioning. When I ported over disklabels from 4.3-Reno it seemed like a "Good Thing" to be paranoid about preserving the label sector ;) > I've gone over ra.c several times -- that's a fun piece of code. I've > written device drivers before, but really, was this a test of DEC > software engineers by DEC hardware engineers? You know - I think it was a contest inside DEC to see who would go crazy first. Reading the comments in the Ultrix drivers gave me the impression that even within DEC getting clear and correct documentation wasn't a given. Then there are Chris Torek's comments in the 4.3-Reno and later MSCP drivers when he was in essence reverse engineering (or outright guessing) the MSCP commands, options, etc. > Well, all my serial cables are three-wire (yes, I'm lazy, but I get > 1.8K/sec via SLIP at 19200, so I'm not too concerned), but the 'numerous > other goodies' I like. Hmmm, that's got to be a DHQ or similar. I had real problems with a DHV-11 and character loss when going over 9600. Also, if you want to use "Kermit" you have to have RTS/CTS because that's a fairly heavy weight protocol and the system can't keep up if the rate is too high. With RTS/CTS in place I was able to use 38400 and not loose a single character. > what I know and love. Give me 2.11BSD on a PDP over Solaris on an > UltraSPARC any day (well, if anyone wants to _give me_ and UltraSPARC, Slowaris? "Just say no" - I have to deal with that at work and it was light night and day going from SunOS 4.1.x to Slowaris 2.x on the same hardware. You *need* an UltraSparc just to restore the system responsiveness. > I'll do the responsible thing and reevaluate my claims -- and SunOS [4.1.x > that is] is a decent OS, but anyway, I digress). The only thing I want is Bit long in the tooth and missing a lot of the improvements (and fixes) in the IP/TCP stack that have been made over time. Still, it was a much nicer system. > command history and filename completion in the Bourne shell (having grown > used to Bash -- although it's a big memory pig and I admit I use it only > for the previously mentioned features, though I like the PS variable magic > characters, too -- I'm thinking about trying to hack the CH features of > tcsh (never been a C shell fan) into sh, maybe we should start a 2BSD > 'ports' collection? Any suggestions for a name of this shell? Any > suggestions for freeing up my time to write it :)? Might I suggest "pig"? <grin!> I like and use 'csh' for everything except the basic scripts that go into the system. Csh has filename completion that works fairly well, only thing it doesn't have is arrowkey driven command editing. But observe the bloat factor that comes with "niceties" such as command history and command editing: First there's the honest to Bourne shell: text data bss dec hex 16576 2356 416 19348 4b94 /bin/sh Then take a look at /bin/csh where there's history and a nicer (to me scripting capability - doing arithmetic in csh is so much easier than in sh): 55744 7104 3682 66530 103e2 total text: 69120 overlays: 7360,6016 Overlaid! Efficiently (the one overlay is called seldom) but overlaid none the less. And lastly 'tcsh' (and yes, there is a port of an older version of tcsh for 2.11): 48960 14844 11986 75790 1280e total text: 140864 overlays: 15424,16000,14144,14016,16256,16064 Zounds! No hope of really being efficient - modules were packed where they would fit. More than doubling the size of 'csh' seems to be a VERY high price to pay for using the arrow keys if you ask me. Oh, and 'tcsh' has another problem due to it's appetite for memory. If it runs out of D space (more likely since it's so much larger) you get logged out. Doing filename completion in 'tcsh' and being in a directory with too many files is a sure way to be staring at the login prompt shortly there after ;) Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA37372 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 05:01:53 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Sat Jun 10 04:59:38 2000 Received: from mail2.panix.com (mail2.panix.com [166.84.0.213]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA37368 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 05:01:48 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from tls(a)panix.com) Received: from panix3.panix.com (panix3.panix.com [166.84.0.228]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CACD615573; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 14:59:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tls@localhost) by panix3.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id OAA06564; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 14:59:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 14:59:38 -0400 From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> To: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again.... Message-ID: <20000609145938.A6135(a)rek.tjls.com> Reply-To: tls(a)rek.tjls.com References: <20000608113634.A26968(a)rek.tjls.com> <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000609195015.10628B-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000609195015.10628B-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE>; from bqt(a)Update.UU.SE on Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 07:53:05PM +0200 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 07:53:05PM +0200, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > > > My experience with compilers on the VAX leads me to believe that the > > substantial "savings" seen over NetBSD or post-4.3 BSD distributions here > > is almost entirely due to the compiler and options used. If Quasijarus > > builds like CSRG 4.3 did, with pcc, it can't even use the optimizer *at all* > > for the kernel build, due to severe bugs; either way, pcc runs a lot faster > > than gcc though it generates code that runs a whole lot slower. > > Um. Let me put it this way... Userland is a *lot* smaller in 4.3 than > NetBSD... How much time do you think that makes up? The same goes for the > kernel. It's not that 4.3 is faster per se, just that it has a lot less to > build. Well, of course it does. But it's also well worth keeping in mind that while pcc is generally inferior to gcc in almost every other way, due to its simplicity it *is* probably at least five times as fast. A lot of the difference in speed we're talking about here, particularly with regard to the kernel, is due to the use of a much slower compiler; as much of the kernel as you *have* to build for a VAX (as opposed to what you *can* build if you *want to*) hasn't really bloated a lot between 4.3 and NetBSD. Runtime memory use is a somewhat different matter, but we do still fit into Ragge's smaller VAXen pretty well. Thanks to Michael for reminding me exactly what the situation with the optimizer and kernel builds under 4.3 is. Though I think he forgot to mention "inline" (ack! pffffft!)... :-) -- Thor Lancelot Simon tls(a)rek.tjls.com "And where do all these highways go, now that we are free?" Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA37445 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 05:21:16 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

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