TUHS

tuhs@tuhs.org

61 participants
6531 discussions

by Bill Gunshannon

It was pointed out to me that I was remiss in not making this announcement here as well as on USENET. Mea culpa, mea culpa. ------- Ok, here it is. An 11/23+ running Ultrix-11 3.1, available on the Net. telnet to 134.198.175.226 login as guest password is ultrix11 Don't expect much. As I said, it's only an 11/23+. It has 3M of memory and an RA81 disk. Things like ftp "run", but they don't "work". Look to be lack of buffer space, but without any documentation I have not found out how to tune it any more than it is now. Of course, if I ever get an 11/73 running I could build a split I&D system which should be considerably better. Please don't try to crash it. It is likely to do that all by itself anyway and you would just keep others from trying it out. No, it's not running any critical applications. If you want to move some code over to try the compiler or something, try "gkermit". But remember, it won;t stream and it needs real small packets. I await any comments and am still hoping someone will find a box of Ultrix-11 docs sitting in a closet somewhere that I will gladly pay to ship here. All the best. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill(a)cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>

24 years, 5 months

[pups] Stupid question..

by Martijn van Buul

Hey. I'm playing around with a /53 running 2.11BSD, trying to port some software, and I have a (probably stupid) problem: environ. When I write a simple program like #include <stdio.h> extern char **environ; void main(argc, argv) int argc; char **argv; { printf("Hello world!"); environ=environ; } and compile & link it using cc ("cc -o test test.c"), things go fine, however if I link things manually ("cc -c test.c ; ld -o test test.o -lc") I get an unresolved _environ. By some experimentation, I noticed that including /lib/crt0.o in the linker helps to some extent - however, the binary generated by cc works like a charm, while the manually linked version quits with a bus error. Any ideas? -- Martijn van Buul - Pino(a)dohd.org - http://www.stack.nl/~martijnb/ Geek code: G-- - Visit OuterSpace: mud.stack.nl 3333 Kees J. Bot: The sum of CPU power and user brain power is a constant. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA08435 for pups-liszt; Tue, 16 Jan 2001 09:22:57 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Tue Jan 16 08:15:45 2001 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA08430 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 16 Jan 2001 09:22:55 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.11.1/8.9.3) id f0FMTm309828 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 16 Jan 2001 09:29:48 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from moe.2bsd.com (MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA08355 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 16 Jan 2001 09:17:00 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f0FMFjJ26746 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Mon, 15 Jan 2001 14:15:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 14:15:45 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200101152215.f0FMFjJ26746(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] Stupid question.. Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > From: Martijn van Buul <pino(a)dohd.org> > > however if I link things manually ("cc -c test.c ; ld -o test test.o -lc") > I get an unresolved _environ. By some experimentation, I noticed that > including /lib/crt0.o in the linker helps to some extent - however, > the binary generated by cc works like a charm, while the manually > linked version quits with a bus error. Any ideas? Try placing /lib/crt0.o before the test.o: ld -o test /lib/crt0.o test.o -lc on another note it's usually not a good idea to call a program 'test' because when you are least expecting it you will end up running /bin/test and wonder what is wrong. Steven

24 years, 5 months

[pups] RL0{1,2} platters available in Portland, OR

by Aaron J. Grier

my company was recently doing some housecleaning and unearthed about a dozen RL01 and RL02 platters, along with a bunch of 8" RT-11 floppies, and doc set for RT-11. seeing that used platters seem to still be rather common, I'm sure I can talk accounting into letting them go for the price of shipping. Likewise with the floppies and documentation. (of course Portland people can pick up for free, or if you're in SE PDX, I can deliver!) We have the original DEC packaging for many of the platters, and can ship worldwide via UPS, DHL, etc... I guess to bring things back on topic a little, what's the background / specs of the RL-series drives? I know they're 5 and 10MB, but that's about it. What interface boards were available for the various PDPs and VAXen? How fast(?)/reliable/cranky were these things? :) -- Aaron J. Grier | "Not your ordinary poofy goof." | agrier(a)poofygoof.com "[I]f you can find the purity in hardcore and gabber, I guess you're already screwed up enough." -- Drew Smith

24 years, 5 months

[pups] Dead period on tuhs, pups lists

by Warren Toomey

All, I'm just off for a 4-day break, so messages for the tuhs and pups mailing lists will be queued until I get back. Hope you all have a safe and happy festive time! Cheers, Warren

24 years, 6 months

[pups] A new list member seeking help.

by Bill Gunshannon

Although some here may recognize me from the PDP-11 newsgroups, I am a new member of the mailing list. And I come with a problem right off the bat!! Is there anyone here who can give me hand figuring out how to get more than 1M of memory working on an 11/23+ and an 11/73?? This has me pulling my hair out!! I have a couple of M7551 4M modules but can't seem to make them work beyond setting them for 1M. I have Ultrix-11 3.1 running (even with TCPIP!) and really would like to get more memory so I can make them functional rather than just running. Is there anyone here who can offer any help. And as long as I have everyones attention, anyone here who knows anything about the H777 power supply in the 11/24?? I've got a dead one and I really miss my only UNIBUS machine. Come to think of it, it would run ULTRIX-11 pretty good as well if I could revive it. Any help greatly appreciated. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill(a)cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>

24 years, 6 months

[pups] BSD2.11 Floating Point Simulator

by Robin Birch

Dear All, I am currently looking at making the 2.11 FP simulator work. Unfortunately I don't have a non floating point PDP to check things on. Can some one who has please try running some FP code on the Generic Kernel for 2.11 and let me know what happens. I am slowly going through the code but some symptoms would be useful. regards Robin ____________________________________________________________________ Robin Birch robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD Old computers and radios always welcome

24 years, 8 months

[pups] 9 track reelers on MVII.... will an IBM differential drive work?

by rdkeys＠unity.ncsu.edu

On a lark, my ol' propeller headed beanie was whirring, again, today. Problem: how to use old IBM differential scsi reel tape deck to make reel tapes for antique unix.... Discussion: I picked up a perfectly fine looking IBM 9348-001 differential scsi interface tape deck from an AS400 box. I had thought of using a differential to single-ended scsi converter, but, they are a tad dear for this olde man's beer bellie peanut computer budget. Thinking there had to be some other way of making use of this deck to write some fine old reels, I saw, buried deep in the pdp-11 cards list a differential tape card by Dilogic, and though... hmmm, can the old MVII crank out to the 9 track via such a card? Solutions: anyone have any insights on trying something like this or know if such a shennanigan will work? Are there any other such differential scsi cards available that might work? Anyone got such a critter gathering dust? Is this really a scsi card or is it some other interface? Thanks Bob

24 years, 8 months

Re: [pups] What hard drives to look for for PDP-11 use?

by rdkeys＠unity.ncsu.edu

> It is going to take some creative symlink and mount point work to > fit 2.11 into 20MB disks - the system really expects to have ~80MB > at least for /usr. An RD54 at 159MB is more than enough but a RD53 > paired with a couple RD32/3 would be adequate. > > Steven Schultz > sms(a)to.gd-es.com Steven.... I have been thinking of trying to find a PDP-11 of some sort (like hunting for needles in a hay stack in this part of the woods, but maybe something will surface). Anyway... for the sake of discussion, and general dumpster diving knowledge.... 1. What mfm hard drives from the non-DEC world could be adapted to work on a PDP-11? 2. Can any scsi drives be used (RZ-23's or that kind of thing?). I often run across lots of smaller DEC scsi drives in MooU surplus, as well as assorted MFM drives from retired AT crates. IF I can find out what is worth saving to use, that would be great info to have handy, whilst dumpster diving. At a buck or two a chassis, it is worth saving a few drives, provided I know what to save. I will assume the target OS is 2.11BSD or 2.9BSD, since those seem to handle the greatest assortment of hardware types. Can any of these non-DEC drives be adapted to MVII use? Can any of the early MFM or ESDI Sun drives be used? I vaguely remember some notes on some of this somewhere. Any urls or pointers thereto would be appreciated. Thanks Bob Keys rdkeys(a)unity.ncsu.edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA99702 for pups-liszt; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 13:17:44 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 8 months

Re: [pups] What hard drives to look for for PDP-11 use?

by rdkeys＠unity.ncsu.edu

> Hi Bob - Hello..... > > From: rdkeys(a)unity.ncsu.edu > > Steven.... I have been thinking of trying to find a PDP-11 of some sort > > (like hunting for needles in a hay stack in this part of the woods, but > > Interesting. I wouldn't have thought an 11/73 or similar would > be too hard to find. Most of the PDP stuff has long since been surplussed, and I have trolled the local newsfeeds but nothing seems to turn up. VAXen are the usual fare, since PDP's were not that common around here. The RTP NC area did not really get big into computering until the VAX era. > > 1. What mfm hard drives from the non-DEC world could be adapted to > > work on a PDP-11? > > Tim has already jumped in with a pointer or two. > > > 2. Can any scsi drives be used (RZ-23's or that kind of thing?). > > Oh yes! But you need to have a Qbus SCSI<->MSCP controller. They > are easy to _find_ but quite *expensive*. Not as expensive as > they were when I shelled out US$1500 for a new Emulex UC08 (and that > with a good discount - the sales person was sympathetic to my > explanation this was for a 'hobby'). Used CMD, Emulex or Dilog > controllers will run around $500-900. I fell into a MVII yesterday that has a Dilog controller. Is that the one you are talking about? If so, that could be a lucky find. Here's a crazy, but possible thought.... can I write 211BSD drives from a MicroVAX II and move the card/drives over to the PDP-11 and have a reasonable expectation that they will work, or at least boot to a root or a miniroot or such? It is a long shot, but if I am just dd'ing images, it might work, I would think. One of my goals with the MVII is to use it to write 9 track tapes, IFF I can lay hands on one of several 9 trackkers in surplus in the next few weeks. They were originally used on a local VAXsystem 5400 crate and are single ended scsi Ciphers. Could they be used on a PDP-11, too? > Once you have gotten over the sticker/exchequer shock the upside > is that you can use about many SCSI disk or tape drives that other > folks are tossing otu because they're too small. The older ~300MB > and 1GB disks that are not useful on modern systems are great in > a PDP-11 environment. Uh, don't bother putting a 73GB Cheetah > on an 11 ;) I have plenty of the RZ55/56/57/58ish things that have popped up in surplus that I am using on my VAXstation toyz. All the PeeCee types avoid them like the plague, and I truck them out by the handfull. MooU was big on those and DS5000/200 crates. They are now hitting surplus quite frequently. > One place that lists CMD and Emulex controllers is: > > http://www.ficompinc.com > > > I will assume the target OS is 2.11BSD or 2.9BSD, since those seem > > to handle the greatest assortment of hardware types. > > > > Can any of these non-DEC drives be adapted to MVII use? > > At one time I had a uVax-II with a Dilog DQ696 (I think that was > the model number) that had a couple ESDI drives on it - a ~300MB > Miniscribe disk and a couple Maxtor RD53 sized drives. I had one of those, too, a few months back, but stripped the MVI it came out of, without thinking of hanging onto that card. Minus two points for me. Someone else was lucky that day.....(:+}}... > > Can any of the early MFM or ESDI Sun drives be used? > > Definitely. Emulex QD33 and QD35 adaptors (in addition to the > Dilog DQ696) ring a bell as far as non-SCSI disks go. I have half a dozen of these early Sun drives in storage, so that is good to know, and I did save the 650mb esdi drive from the MVI, thinking I could use it on a Sun, but never got around to it. > Steven Schultz > sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Thanks for the tidbits folks! Bob Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA06738 for pups-liszt; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 09:51:38 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Wilko Bulte <wkb(a)freebie.demon.nl> Thu Oct 12 18:11:06 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA06734 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 09:51:36 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA93998 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 09:52:37 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from post.mail.nl.demon.net (post-10.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.20]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA05927 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 07:02:30 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkb(a)freebie.demon.nl) Received: from [212.238.54.101] (helo=freebie.demon.nl) by post.mail.nl.demon.net with smtp (Exim 3.14 #2) id 13joXg-0003AX-00; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 20:01:28 +0000 Received: (from wkb@localhost) by freebie.demon.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e9C8B6o18660; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 10:11:06 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wkb) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 10:11:06 +0200 From: Wilko Bulte <wkb(a)freebie.demon.nl> To: rdkeys(a)unity.ncsu.edu Cc: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] What hard drives to look for for PDP-11 use? Message-ID: <20001012101105.B18613(a)freebie.demon.nl> References: <200010110012.RAA13052(a)moe.2bsd.com> <200010111429.KAA23987(a)uni04du.unity.ncsu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200010111429.KAA23987(a)uni04du.unity.ncsu.edu>; from rdkeys(a)unity.ncsu.edu on Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 10:29:18AM -0400 X-OS: FreeBSD 4.1-STABLE X-PGP: finger wilko(a)freebsd.org Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 10:29:18AM -0400, rdkeys(a)unity.ncsu.edu wrote: > > It is going to take some creative symlink and mount point work to > > fit 2.11 into 20MB disks - the system really expects to have ~80MB > > at least for /usr. An RD54 at 159MB is more than enough but a RD53 > > paired with a couple RD32/3 would be adequate. > > > > Steven Schultz > > sms(a)to.gd-es.com > > Steven.... I have been thinking of trying to find a PDP-11 of some sort > (like hunting for needles in a hay stack in this part of the woods, but > maybe something will surface). Anyway... for the sake of discussion, > and general dumpster diving knowledge.... > > 1. What mfm hard drives from the non-DEC world could be adapted to > work on a PDP-11? RD53 is a Micropolis 1375 (eh, no the MFM variant of it.. 75 is SCSI. Maybe 1325??). RD54 is a Maxtor or Newbury data drive. I can look up the details if needed. As far as MFM drives go I would not consider anything smaller than a 53. -- Wilko Bulte wilko(a)freebsd.org Arnhem, the Netherlands Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA06732 for pups-liszt; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 09:51:34 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 8 months

Re: [pups] What hard drives to look for for PDP-11 use?

by SHOPPA＠trailing-edge.com

Bob Keys wrote: >1. What mfm hard drives from the non-DEC world could be adapted to > work on a PDP-11? Perhaps the number one most frequently asked question on this list :-). See http://ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/hardware/th… for Terry Kennedy's excellent collection of DECUServe articles with lots of juicy details about using non-DEC MFM drives and floppy drives on DEC RQDXn controllers. Tim. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA99851 for pups-liszt; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 13:39:10 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 8 months

Re: [pups] How to arrange bootable media for 2.11BSD?

by Martijn van Buul

*whoops*. I've been mailing personal replies, instead of replies to the list. Too much relying on procmail, I suppose. Steven M. Schultz wrote: > It is an 11/53 or better (73, 83, 93)? There were numerous "MicroPDP" > systems made but some of them were 11/23 or 23+ and those will not > run 2.11BSD It's a 11/53+ (aka: 1.5 MB RAM), which *should* be able to run 2.11BSD. > What OS did you manage to get Kermit running under? Micro/RSX > I do not believe Kermit itself can handle the multiple block sizes used > when writing the files that make up the "boot tape". Do you have any > development facilities on the currently running system? If so then it > might be possible to write a program to create a tape from the files > brought over via kermit. There is a Macro-assembler, and reportedly a PASCAL compiler. However, my Micro/RSX skills (let alone -programming skills) should be considered rudimentary - the only resource I have is the on-line helpfile (which isn't very clear every now and then). > If you've a PC with a 5.25" drive and the ability to do image copies > to it ('dd' on a *BSD* or Linux system) that might be one way to > get 2.11 over to the MicroPDP. A single RX33 can easily hold the > standalone programs (boot, disklabel, restore, mkfs, icheck) and > it only takes 3 or 4 RX33 disks to hold a root filesystem dump. The "RX33" is working (that's how I was able to low-level format two MFM disks, and how I got Kermit running). And yes, I have a Minix-VMD box with a 5.25" HD drive. For the sake of completeness, I'll include the currently available hardware: KJD11-D/S (processor), DZQ11, TK50, RQDX3 with one RD32A, a third-party 21MB MFM disk (ST225, RD33? 31? Something like that), a second 21MB MFM disk standing by (A microscribe of some sort), a 5.25" PC floppy drive shoe-horned into a RX33, and a DELQA card. (Well, that's what I have installed right now. I do have some other cards, including a DRV11-J "Hi-density parallell line unit" and some strange VG-Electronics cards (which they claim are specific to surface analysis)) And a spare TK50 mechanic.. -- Martijn van Buul - Pino(a)dohd.org - http://www.stack.nl/~martijnb/ Geek code: G-- - Visit OuterSpace: mud.stack.nl 3333 Kees J. Bot: The sum of CPU power and user brain power is a constant. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA89483 for pups-liszt; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 09:01:31 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Wilko Bulte <wkb(a)freebie.demon.nl> Wed Oct 11 07:20:11 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA89479 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 09:01:30 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA86567 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 09:02:41 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from post.mail.nl.demon.net (post-11.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.21]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA89039 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 08:18:58 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkb(a)freebie.demon.nl) Received: from [212.238.54.101] (helo=freebie.demon.nl) by post.mail.nl.demon.net with smtp (Exim 3.14 #4) id 13j6mm-000Msu-00; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 21:18:08 +0000 Received: (from wkb@localhost) by freebie.demon.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e9ALKBR08942; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 23:20:11 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wkb) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 23:20:11 +0200 From: Wilko Bulte <wkb(a)freebie.demon.nl> To: Martijn van Buul <pino(a)dohd.org> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] How to arrange bootable media for 2.11BSD? Message-ID: <20001010232011.A8918(a)freebie.demon.nl> References: <20001009153936.A18313(a)mud.stack.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20001009153936.A18313(a)mud.stack.nl>; from pino(a)dohd.org on Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 03:39:36PM +0200 X-OS: FreeBSD 4.1-STABLE X-PGP: finger wilko(a)freebsd.org Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 03:39:36PM +0200, Martijn van Buul wrote: > I've about given up hope to create a 2.11 boottape myself[1], so I'm wondering > what to do next. I have this MicroPDP, with a DELQA network card, a PC > 5.25" diskdrive shoe-horned into working as RX33 and a TK50 tape drive. > If it helps: I've managed to get Kermit running on the PDP, but I haven't > figured out if it is possible to "kermit" to the tapedrive directly. Probably > not. > > Any hints? Well... you can borrow one of my TK50s with 2.11 on it ;-) -- Wilko Bulte wilko(a)freebsd.org Arnhem, the Netherlands Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA89462 for pups-liszt; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 09:00:59 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Mark Green <mark(a)cs.ualberta.ca> Wed Oct 11 00:30:24 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA89458 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 09:00:57 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA86549 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 09:02:09 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from scapa.cs.ualberta.ca (root(a)scapa.cs.ualberta.ca [129.128.4.44]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA86250 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 01:31:16 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from mark(a)cs.ualberta.ca) Received: (from localhost user: 'mark' uid#150 fake: goodfare.cs.ualberta.ca) by scapa.cs.ualberta.ca id <S433793AbQJJOaZ>; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 08:30:25 -0600 Subject: Re: [pups] How to arrange bootable media for 2.11BSD? In-Reply-To: <20001009153936.A18313(a)mud.stack.nl> from Martijn van Buul at "Oct 9, 2000 03:39:36 pm" From: Mark Green <mark(a)cs.ualberta.ca> To: Martijn van Buul <pino(a)dohd.org> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 08:30:24 -0600 (MDT) CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL66 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20001010143026Z433793-12555+100(a)scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > Ahoy! > > I've about given up hope to create a 2.11 boottape myself[1], so I'm wondering > what to do next. I have this MicroPDP, with a DELQA network card, a PC > 5.25" diskdrive shoe-horned into working as RX33 and a TK50 tape drive. > If it helps: I've managed to get Kermit running on the PDP, but I haven't > figured out if it is possible to "kermit" to the tapedrive directly. Probably > not. > > Any hints? If you need a TK50 with 2.11 on it I could produce one for you (provided that you have jumped through all the license hoops). The only sticky point might be shipping, where are you located? I'm travelling a lot this month, so it may take a week or so to get it done. -- Dr. Mark Green mark(a)cs.ualberta.ca McCalla Professor (780) 492-4584 Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA90520 for pups-liszt; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 11:24:54 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Oct 11 10:12:18 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA90516 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 11:24:53 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA87119 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 11:26:04 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA90503 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 11:23:56 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA13052 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 17:12:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 17:12:18 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200010110012.RAA13052(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] How to arrange bootable media for 2.11BSD? Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > From: Martijn van Buul <pino(a)dohd.org> > *whoops*. > > I've been mailing personal replies, instead of replies to the list. Too much > relying on procmail, I suppose. ;) > It's a 11/53+ (aka: 1.5 MB RAM), which *should* be able to run 2.11BSD. Indeed it should be able to. I personally have not done so but the processor/mmu meet all the criteria and 1.5MB is perfect. > The "RX33" is working (that's how I was able to low-level format two I have a "RX33" on my 11/73 so I can create a boot disk and the root filesystem dump (split over 3 or 4 1.2MB disk images). > For the sake of completeness, I'll include the currently available > hardware: Ah, thanks! That answers some other questions I was going to ask ;) > KJD11-D/S (processor), DZQ11, TK50, RQDX3 with one RD32A, a third-party > 21MB MFM disk (ST225, RD33? 31? Something like that), a second 21MB > MFM disk standing by (A microscribe of some sort), a 5.25" PC floppy > drive shoe-horned into a RX33, and a DELQA card. It is going to take some creative symlink and mount point work to fit 2.11 into 20MB disks - the system really expects to have ~80MB at least for /usr. An RD54 at 159MB is more than enough but a RD53 paired with a couple RD32/3 would be adequate. Steven Schultz sms(a)to.gd-es.com

24 years, 8 months

[pups] How to arrange bootable media for 2.11BSD?

by Martijn van Buul

Ahoy! I've about given up hope to create a 2.11 boottape myself[1], so I'm wondering what to do next. I have this MicroPDP, with a DELQA network card, a PC 5.25" diskdrive shoe-horned into working as RX33 and a TK50 tape drive. If it helps: I've managed to get Kermit running on the PDP, but I haven't figured out if it is possible to "kermit" to the tapedrive directly. Probably not. Any hints? Kind regards, Martijn. [1] My hopes have vaporized into thin air by two "not so overly bright" persons. One of them decided that the TKZ-50 drive we (the local user group) had should be split into controllerboard and actual drive (and stored seperately), the other one didn't recognize the TKZ50 controller, couldn't figure out what it was used for, and threw it away... Some people deserve to be shot. -- Martijn van Buul - Pino(a)dohd.org - http://www.stack.nl/~martijnb/ Geek code: G-- - Visit OuterSpace: mud.stack.nl 3333 Kees J. Bot: The sum of CPU power and user brain power is a constant. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA80663 for pups-liszt; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 09:47:32 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Tue Oct 10 08:46:18 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA80659 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 09:47:31 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA81255 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 09:48:46 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA80647 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 09:47:08 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from bqt(a)Update.UU.SE) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA26636; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 00:46:19 +0200 Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 00:46:18 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: Martijn van Buul <pino(a)dohd.org> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] How to arrange bootable media for 2.11BSD? In-Reply-To: <20001009153936.A18313(a)mud.stack.nl> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1001010004455.25207B-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, 9 Oct 2000, Martijn van Buul wrote: > Ahoy! > > I've about given up hope to create a 2.11 boottape myself[1], so I'm wondering > what to do next. I have this MicroPDP, with a DELQA network card, a PC > 5.25" diskdrive shoe-horned into working as RX33 and a TK50 tape drive. > If it helps: I've managed to get Kermit running on the PDP, but I haven't > figured out if it is possible to "kermit" to the tapedrive directly. Probably > not. > > Any hints? Perhaps you should start by telling what you have running on the PDP-11 right now? Both software and hardware wise. > [1] My hopes have vaporized into thin air by two "not so overly bright" > persons. One of them decided that the TKZ-50 drive we (the local > user group) had should be split into controllerboard and actual > drive (and stored seperately), the other one didn't recognize > the TKZ50 controller, couldn't figure out what it was used for, and > threw it away... Some people deserve to be shot. Wow. Impressive stupidity! Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA82929 for pups-liszt; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:40:22 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Tue Oct 10 14:36:03 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA82925 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:40:20 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA83764 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:41:35 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA82907 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:39:03 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA01412; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 21:36:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 21:36:03 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200010100436.VAA01412(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pino(a)dohd.org, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] How to arrange bootable media for 2.11BSD? Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Greetings - > From: Martijn van Buul <pino(a)dohd.org> > I've about given up hope to create a 2.11 boottape myself[1], so I'm wondering > what to do next. I have this MicroPDP, with a DELQA network card, a PC It is an 11/53 or better (73, 83, 93)? There were numerous "MicroPDP" systems made but some of them were 11/23 or 23+ and those will not run 2.11BSD > 5.25" diskdrive shoe-horned into working as RX33 and a TK50 tape drive. > If it helps: I've managed to get Kermit running on the PDP, but I haven't > figured out if it is possible to "kermit" to the tapedrive directly. Probably > not. What OS did you manage to get Kermit running under? I do not believe Kermit itself can handle the multiple block sizes used when writing the files that make up the "boot tape". Do you have any development facilities on the currently running system? If so then it might be possible to write a program to create a tape from the files brought over via kermit. > Any hints? First shoot the individuals mentioned in [1]? ;) If you've a PC with a 5.25" drive and the ability to do image copies to it ('dd' on a *BSD* or Linux system) that might be one way to get 2.11 over to the MicroPDP. A single RX33 can easily hold the standalone programs (boot, disklabel, restore, mkfs, icheck) and it only takes 3 or 4 RX33 disks to hold a root filesystem dump. The bad part is that the GENERIC kernel lacks networking due to space contraints. Someone would have to create a custom kernel+ networking root filesystem and create 3 or 4 RX33 images to be dd'd out to floppies. Then, once a networking based root filesystem was loaded it should be possible to get pull the remaining data over the network with a "rsh ... | tar ..." command. Much depends on the ability to create floppy disks from images on a PC that can be read on the RX33 which the PDP-11 has. If that works then the rest will be timeconsuming (and the install instructions will of course be heavily modified ;)) but at least possible. Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com

24 years, 8 months

Re: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator

by Steven M. Schultz

Hi - > From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> > > revision 1.1 > > date: 2000/07/20 17:01:10; author: nsayer; state: Exp; > > Add the tap driver. > > Ah well, I still haven't used it. Neither have I ;) I thought (for 30 seconds or less) about porting it to BSD/OS - it's not that big and didn't appear to be overly tricky. Only reason I knew about 'tap' was that P11 has support for it and a pointer where to fetch 'tap' from. > > The reason for publishing an ARP entry on the hosting system is... > > I did that with a static route entry. Publishing an ARP entry has the benefit of not needing to wander around to all the systems on the LAN (I've several) and add a static route. In my case I don't own/run the local router so I couldn't add a static route if I wanted to. Having the host system 'arp ... pub' works was the simplest way to deal with the situation. > As I say, it's not that simple. I used it without trouble for years. Well, i'd have to see it working or have it explained in a bit more detail. Having been thru the DEQNA driver and IP stack in 2.11 I can't see how an 11 will communicate with anything over an ethernet if it can't perform the IP<->ethernet address mapping. > Recently something broke, and I suspect it trashed my root file > system, and I haven't had time to go back and fix it. Since others Ouch! On the 11 side? Or on the hosting system's side? Steven Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA53881 for pups-liszt; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 16:12:11 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Jay Jaeger <cube1(a)home.com> Fri Oct 6 12:25:17 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA53877 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 16:12:09 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA66088 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 16:13:45 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from mail1.rdc1.il.home.com (mail1.rdc1.il.home.com [24.2.1.76]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA53111 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 13:42:43 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from cube1(a)home.com) Received: from ddjay.home.com ([24.10.213.208]) by mail1.rdc1.il.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20001006024207.JBOT7359.mail1.rdc1.il.home.com(a)ddjay.home.com> for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 19:42:07 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001005212349.06086580@cirithi> X-Sender: cube1@cirithi X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 21:25:17 -0500 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (UNIX Heritage Society Digest) From: Jay Jaeger <cube1(a)home.com> Subject: [pups] Re: UNIX Heritage Society Digest V1 #137 In-Reply-To: <200009241945.GAA72267(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk I had to replace the RS 423 drives on my PDP-11/24 and in the connected VT-100 terminal after a problem on a PC clobbered the 11/24 console ports which in turn clobbered the VT-100 some time ago. --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection cube1(a)home.com visit http://members.home.net/thecomputercollection Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA53897 for pups-liszt; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 16:14:08 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Fri Oct 6 13:35:03 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA53893 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 16:14:06 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA66113 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 16:15:42 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (root(a)wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA53333 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 14:35:53 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from grog(a)wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.11.0/8.9.3) id e963Z3N21875; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 13:05:03 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 13:05:03 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator Message-ID: <20001006130503.A21828(a)wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200010051642.JAA03467(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200010051642.JAA03467(a)moe.2bsd.com>; from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com on Thu, Oct 05, 2000 at 09:42:05AM -0700 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Thursday, 5 October 2000 at 9:42:05 -0700, Steven M. Schultz wrote: >>> The reason for publishing an ARP entry on the hosting system is... >> I did that with a static route entry. > > Publishing an ARP entry has the benefit of not needing to wander > around to all the systems on the LAN (I've several) and add a static > route. In my case I don't own/run the local router so I couldn't > add a static route if I wanted to. Having the host system > 'arp ... pub' works was the simplest way to deal with the situation. > >> As I say, it's not that simple. I used it without trouble for years. > > Well, i'd have to see it working or have it explained in a bit more > detail. Having been thru the DEQNA driver and IP stack in 2.11 I > can't see how an 11 will communicate with anything over an ethernet > if it can't perform the IP<->ethernet address mapping. I don't know the details either, unfortunately. I really need to find some time to get the thing running again. >> Recently something broke, and I suspect it trashed my root file >> system, and I haven't had time to go back and fix it. Since others > > Ouch! On the 11 side? Or on the hosting system's side? On the 11 side. I'm not sure what happened, but it looks like it. It's not a big deal, since I have backups somewhere. Greg -- Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers

24 years, 8 months

Re: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator

by Frank Wortner

Just to let everyone know, Stephen Schultz was right: I needed arp table entries as he described.` Thanks to him and Greg Lehey for their useful replies. Frank Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA44035 for pups-liszt; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 08:00:59 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Frank Wortner <frank(a)wortner.com> Thu Oct 5 04:37:09 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA44023 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 08:00:56 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA61588 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 08:02:39 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from mail1.panix.com (mail1.panix.com [166.84.0.212]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA43020 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 05:37:32 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from frank(a)wortner.com) Received: from panix3.panix.com (panix3.panix.com [166.84.0.228]) by mail1.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12733487A4 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 14:37:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by panix3.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) with ESMTP id OAA22748 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 14:37:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: panix3.panix.com: frank owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 14:37:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Frank Wortner <frank(a)wortner.com> X-Sender: frank(a)panix3.panix.com To: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: [pups] Default P11 Emulator Clock Rate Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.21.0010041418140.20682-100000(a)panix3.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk This is just an FYI for anyone playing with the Begemot P11 emulator ... The default clock rate on P11 is 50 Hz. While this corresponds to AC line frequency in many parts of the world, it is not correct for the U.S., where 60 Hz is the norm. Since PDP-11 Unix was developed in the U.S., the bootable distributions probably assume a 60 Hz clock also. When the software and "hardware" disagree on clock rates, problems happen. My emulated 11 had difficulties keeping accurate time until I discovered the 50 Hz clock rate. After I changed it to 60, the emulator's time was remarkably accurate! If you want to change the default clock rate, you can do so in the source (look for the symbol "clock_rate" in "main.c"), or you can just add set clock_rate 60 into your p11conf file. This will override the default in the emulator program. Have fun -- I certainly am! :-) Frank Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA44015 for pups-liszt; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 08:00:13 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu Oct 5 01:24:07 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA44011 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 08:00:11 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA61560 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 08:01:55 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA42100 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 02:40:33 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA19559 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 08:24:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 08:24:07 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200010041524.IAA19559(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> > No, that wasn't me. FreeBSD doesn't have a tap driver. Do you mean > Frank? Sure it does. The FreeBSD 4.1.1 release notes say so ;) Before that the 'if_tap.c' module was available (for some time) as a download that could be retrieved from the author's site. > > The missing piece I forgot earlier was on the hosting machine's > > side to publish an ARP entry for the simulated 11. > > I'm pretty sure we weren't using arp at all. tun is a point-to-point > interface. The reason for publishing an ARP entry on the hosting system is so that other systems on the LAN know how to get to the simulated 11 via the P11 hosting system. If the hosting system doesn't publish an ARP entry the gateway, etc won't know to send the packets to the machine running P11. > > I'm not sure how ARP can be made to work thru the 'tun' device. > > I don't think it can. I think Harti used some magic there. I know it can't - I asked him about it :) That's when I first discovered that nothing was able to communicate with the simulated 11 - the 11 will not send anything unless it's able to get a response to its ARP request. On the hosting side it would be possible perhaps to use a "interface route" but 2.11 can not do that and will block waiting for an ARPREPLY. Steven Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA44583 for pups-liszt; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 09:38:50 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu Oct 5 08:27:58 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA44579 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 09:38:48 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA62065 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 09:40:31 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA44571 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 09:38:23 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA21951 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 15:27:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 15:27:58 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200010042227.PAA21951(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] Default P11 Emulator Clock Rate Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > From: Frank Wortner <frank(a)wortner.com> > The default clock rate on P11 is 50 Hz. While this corresponds to AC line > frequency in many parts of the world, it is not correct for the > U.S., where 60 Hz is the norm. Since PDP-11 Unix was developed in the > U.S., the bootable distributions probably assume a 60 Hz clock Yes, the bootable 2.11 distribution assumes a 60Hz clock. That is easily changed though for folks that live in 50Hz areas. Edit the kernel config file and change LINEHZ to 50. The rest of the system has been changed to ask the kernel for the clockrate so there shouldn't be any compiled in assumptions outside the kernel (if I overlooked any let me know and I'll fix it). > My emulated 11 had difficulties keeping accurate time until I discovered > the 50 Hz clock rate. After I changed it to 60, the emulator's time was > remarkably accurate! Indeed it is accurate. Earlier versions of P11 would lose time very rapidly if the PDP-11 was "busy" - but the latest version of P11 is fantastic at keeping time. If you run 'ntpd' on the 11 the time stays even closer to "real". Steven Schultz Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA46919 for pups-liszt; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 18:03:16 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Thu Oct 5 13:03:25 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA46914 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 18:03:14 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA63282 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 18:04:55 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (root(a)wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA45823 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 14:03:57 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from grog(a)wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.11.0/8.9.3) id e9533Pt12494; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 12:33:25 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 12:33:25 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator Message-ID: <20001005123324.C12234(a)wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200010041524.IAA19559(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200010041524.IAA19559(a)moe.2bsd.com>; from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com on Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 08:24:07AM -0700 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Wednesday, 4 October 2000 at 8:24:07 -0700, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > Hi - > >> From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> >> No, that wasn't me. FreeBSD doesn't have a tap driver. Do you mean >> Frank? > > Sure it does. The FreeBSD 4.1.1 release notes say so ;) > Before that the 'if_tap.c' module was available (for some time) > as a download that could be retrieved from the author's site. I stand corrected: > revision 1.1 > date: 2000/07/20 17:01:10; author: nsayer; state: Exp; > Add the tap driver. > > The tap driver is used to present a virtual Ethernet interface to the > system. Packets presented by the network stack to the interface are > made available to a character device in /dev. With tap and the bridge > code, you can make remote bridge configurations where both sides of > the bridge are separated by userland daemons. > > This driver also has a special naming hack to allow it to serve a similar > purpose to the vmware port. > > Submitted by: myevmenkin(a)att.com, vsilyaev(a)mindspring.com Ah well, I still haven't used it. >>> The missing piece I forgot earlier was on the hosting machine's >>> side to publish an ARP entry for the simulated 11. >> >> I'm pretty sure we weren't using arp at all. tun is a point-to-point >> interface. > > The reason for publishing an ARP entry on the hosting system is > so that other systems on the LAN know how to get to the simulated > 11 via the P11 hosting system. If the hosting system doesn't > publish an ARP entry the gateway, etc won't know to send the packets > to the machine running P11. I did that with a static route entry. >>> I'm not sure how ARP can be made to work thru the 'tun' device. >> >> I don't think it can. I think Harti used some magic there. > > I know it can't - I asked him about it :) That's when I first > discovered that nothing was able to communicate with the simulated > 11 - the 11 will not send anything unless it's able to get a > response to its ARP request. On the hosting side it would be > possible perhaps to use a "interface route" but 2.11 can not do that > and will block waiting for an ARPREPLY. As I say, it's not that simple. I used it without trouble for years. Recently something broke, and I suspect it trashed my root file system, and I haven't had time to go back and fix it. Since others have the rest running, it's obviously nothing fundamental. Greg -- Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers

24 years, 8 months

[pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator

by Frank Wortner

I've been trying to set up an emulated PDP-11 running 2.11 BSD. Just for the fun, I'm trying to get the 11 to talk on a LAN. Unfortunately, it's not working. My configuration is Begemot P11 Version 2.7 running under FreeBSD 4.1.1. I've booted 2.11, configured a custom networking kernel, installed the unix and netnix images, changed the IP addresses in /etc/hosts to match my LAN, run mkhosts to rebuild /etc/hosts.dir and /etc/hosts.pag and rebooted. On the P11 front, I've built a fake qma.rom file populated with zeros -- just like the P11 README file said, made sure that I had a tun driver configured in my FreeBSD system, and started P11. Then I did an ifconfig tun0 host-IP-address emulator-IP-address up Running ifconfig on the host confirmed that things *seemed* to be OK: # ifconfig tun0 tun0: flags=8051<UP,POINTOPOINT,RUNNING,MULTICAST> mtu 1518 inet6 fe80::260:8ff:febd:5882%tun0 --> :: prefixlen 64 scopeid 0xb inet host-IP-address --> emulator-IP-address netmask 0xffff0000 Opened by PID 32199 The IP addresses are identical in the first three octets, and differ only in the last octet. Unfortunately, once I boot 2.11 BSD, I can't contact the "outside world" from the emulator, nor contact the emulator from the outside. No telnet, no ftp, pings just hang. Everything looks OK from inside: # ifconfig qe0 qe0: flags=63<UP,BROADCAST,NOTRAILERS,RUNNING> inet emulator-IP-address netmask ffff0000 broadcast Bcast-IP What am I missing? Thanks in advance, Frank Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA36466 for pups-liszt; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 10:49:43 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Wed Oct 4 09:47:22 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA36462 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 10:49:41 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA58459 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 10:51:28 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (root(a)wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA36453 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 10:48:45 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from grog(a)wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.11.0/8.9.3) id e93NlMb05692; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 09:17:22 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 09:17:22 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: Frank Wortner <frank(a)wortner.com> Cc: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>, Hartmut Brandt <brandt(a)fokus.gmd.de>, Joerg Micheel <joerg(a)begemot.org> Subject: Re: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator Message-ID: <20001004091722.C1760(a)wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <Pine.NEB.4.21.0010031544040.23696-100000(a)panix2.panix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.21.0010031544040.23696-100000(a)panix2.panix.com>; from frank(a)wortner.com on Tue, Oct 03, 2000 at 04:02:17PM -0400 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tuesday, 3 October 2000 at 16:02:17 -0400, Frank Wortner wrote: > I've been trying to set up an emulated PDP-11 running 2.11 BSD. Just for > the fun, I'm trying to get the 11 to talk on a LAN. Unfortunately, it's > not working. There's a bug. It used to work, and *something* changed. I've been meaning to look at it, but it's currently waiting on the tuit queue. > My configuration is Begemot P11 Version 2.7 running under > FreeBSD 4.1.1. I've booted 2.11, configured a custom networking kernel, > installed the unix and netnix images, changed the IP addresses in > /etc/hosts to match my LAN, run mkhosts to rebuild /etc/hosts.dir and > /etc/hosts.pag and rebooted. > > On the P11 front, I've built a fake qma.rom file populated with zeros -- > just like the P11 README file said, made sure that I had a tun driver > configured in my FreeBSD system, and started P11. I know the README says this will work, but I haven't been able to get it to work that way. Somewhere I have a real image; I'll see if I can find it. Greg -- Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA36700 for pups-liszt; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 11:12:10 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Oct 4 10:11:10 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA36696 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 11:12:09 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA58613 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 11:13:56 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA36682 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 11:11:38 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA09035; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 17:11:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 17:11:10 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200010040011.RAA09035(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: frank(a)wortner.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi -- > From: Frank Wortner <frank(a)wortner.com> > > I've been trying to set up an emulated PDP-11 running 2.11 BSD. Just for > the fun, I'm trying to get the 11 to talk on a LAN. Unfortunately, it's... > > My configuration is Begemot P11 Version 2.7 running under > FreeBSD 4.1.1. I've booted 2.11, configured a custom networking kernel, > installed the unix and netnix images, changed the IP addresses in... > > ifconfig tun0 host-IP-address emulator-IP-address up > > # ifconfig tun0 > tun0: flags=8051<UP,POINTOPOINT,RUNNING,MULTICAST> mtu 1518 > inet6 fe80::260:8ff:febd:5882%tun0 --> :: prefixlen 64 scopeid 0xb > inet host-IP-address --> emulator-IP-address netmask 0xffff0000 > Opened by PID 32199 > > The IP addresses are identical in the first three octets, and differ only > in the last octet. > > Unfortunately, once I boot 2.11 BSD, I can't contact the "outside > world" from the emulator, nor contact the emulator from the > outside. No telnet, no ftp, pings just hang. > What am I missing? You're missing ARP. 'tun' only works with IP - ARP packets are not IP and do not pass thru the 'if_tun' driver. I have (using BSD/OS 4.1's if_tun which is probably the same as FreeBSD's) an emulated 11 going quite nicely. What you need to do ON THE 11's SIDE, is populate his arp table with the information about any host on the local LAN that the 11 will want to talk to In /etc/netstart on the 11 side just after the 'ifconfig' lines: ifconfig qe0 inet netmask $netmask $hostname broadcast $broadcast up -trailers >/dev/console 2>&1 # ifconfig sl0 inet 192.254.254.2 192.254.254.1 -arp -trailers >/dev/console 2>&1 # slattach /dev/ttyS6 9600 # Next line needed when running under the Begemot emulator arp -s 206.139.202.1 "0:0:c:3d:e9:f7" pub arp -s 206.139.202.51 "0:a0:24:78:9c:21" pub arp -s 206.139.202.200 "0:90:27:88:64:74" pub arp -s 206.139.202.201 "08:0:2b:f:5b:a6" pub arp -s 206.139.202.209 "0:40:5:a4:72:27" pub ifconfig lo0 inet localhost up -trailers >/dev/console 2>&1 Typically you only need the ARP info for the hosting system and the default gateway. Oh, there's a bug in P11 that after 25 days of calendar up time the clock on the 11 basically stops ticking. I've a fix I came up with (and submitted to the author) but it'll be a couple weeks until I know for sure if it's the right fix (32bit overflow in a calculation). Steven Schultz sms(a)to.gd-es.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA37363 for pups-liszt; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 12:35:16 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Wed Oct 4 11:29:11 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA37359 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 12:35:14 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA58957 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 12:37:01 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (root(a)wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA37319 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 12:29:41 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from grog(a)wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.11.0/8.9.3) id e941TBk07853; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 10:59:11 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 10:59:11 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Cc: frank(a)wortner.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator Message-ID: <20001004105911.H7292(a)wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200010040011.RAA09035(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200010040011.RAA09035(a)moe.2bsd.com>; from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com on Tue, Oct 03, 2000 at 05:11:10PM -0700 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tuesday, 3 October 2000 at 17:11:10 -0700, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > Hi -- > >> From: Frank Wortner <frank(a)wortner.com> >> >> I've been trying to set up an emulated PDP-11 running 2.11 BSD. Just for >> the fun, I'm trying to get the 11 to talk on a LAN. Unfortunately, it's... >> >> My configuration is Begemot P11 Version 2.7 running under >> FreeBSD 4.1.1. I've booted 2.11, configured a custom networking kernel, >> installed the unix and netnix images, changed the IP addresses in... >> >> ifconfig tun0 host-IP-address emulator-IP-address up >> >> # ifconfig tun0 >> tun0: flags=8051<UP,POINTOPOINT,RUNNING,MULTICAST> mtu 1518 >> inet6 fe80::260:8ff:febd:5882%tun0 --> :: prefixlen 64 scopeid 0xb >> inet host-IP-address --> emulator-IP-address netmask 0xffff0000 >> Opened by PID 32199 >> >> The IP addresses are identical in the first three octets, and differ only >> in the last octet. >> >> Unfortunately, once I boot 2.11 BSD, I can't contact the "outside >> world" from the emulator, nor contact the emulator from the >> outside. No telnet, no ftp, pings just hang. >> What am I missing? > > You're missing ARP. > > 'tun' only works with IP - ARP packets are not IP and do not pass > thru the 'if_tun' driver. > > I have (using BSD/OS 4.1's if_tun which is probably the same as > FreeBSD's) an emulated 11 going quite nicely. > > What you need to do ON THE 11's SIDE, is populate his arp table with > the information about any host on the local LAN that the 11 will > want to talk to I didn't need to do this when I had the emulated net running. I did set the netmask to 255.255.255.255, though, and put the default route through that interface. Greg -- Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA37613 for pups-liszt; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 13:10:32 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Oct 4 11:59:45 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA37609 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 13:10:30 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA59086 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 13:12:18 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA37598 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 13:09:08 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA09659; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 18:59:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 18:59:45 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200010040159.SAA09659(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: grog(a)lemis.com, sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Subject: Re: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator Cc: frank(a)wortner.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> > > I didn't need to do this when I had the emulated net running. I did > set the netmask to 255.255.255.255, though, and put the default route > through that interface. I thought you mentioned using the 'tap' driver rather than 'tun' at one time. If my memory hasn't failed me that would explain why it worked since 'tap' passes ARP traffic. The missing piece I forgot earlier was on the hosting machine's side to publish an ARP entry for the simulated 11. Just after ifconfig'ing tun0 up use the hosting system's mac address: ifconfig tun0 206.139.202.200 206.139.202.203 up arp -s shemp 0:90:27:88:64:74 pub I'm not sure how ARP can be made to work thru the 'tun' device. Without ARP on an ethernet I am not aware of any 'routing' that can fill in the mac addresses in the ethernet packets. Try pub'ing the arp entries and see if that works. Might try 'tap' instead of 'tun' if you're looking for something else to try. Steven Schultz

24 years, 9 months

[pups] Re: RL02 discs

by Warren Toomey

In article by Netguru: > A friend of mine has some Digital RL02 > discs. > > We had the PDP/11 running at a TV station from > 1987 to 1992. > > The maintenence port was surged and the console > terminal wouldn't respond after that. > > The entire system is intact ; > 1-PDP/11 frame > 3-RL02 drives > 18-RL02 33MB discs with many archives on them > 5-vt52 terms > > he needs some parts to get it running / or > some tech info on how to get the data off the discs > (prefer access to a card for the PDP/11) > > anyway I think we all could benefit from this old system > coming to life !! > > Sincerely William Castle > Technology Integration Consultant > CCS - Kalkaska Michigan U.S.A. Hi William, I'll pass this on to a PDP-11 Unix mailing list for some ideas. You might also like to try the Usenet newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp11, vmsnet.pdp-11. Cheers, Warren

24 years, 9 months

[pups] Identifying old computers (was: [no subject])

by Greg Lehey

On Friday, 18 August 2000 at 13:37:39 -0500, Spoof wrote: > Hello! Sorry, this languished in my inbox for a while because it didn't have a recognizable subject. I don't recognize the machines, either, but maybe somebody on the PUPS list does. Greg > If you are receiving this email, it is because I found your name during a > websearch about 'classic computing'. At any rate, I have obtained two > computers and I'd like to find out what they are. if you could help me > identfy them i would greatly appreciate it. I was told by the source of > these computers (who seemed very convinvced) that they were PDP-4 > computers. Every site I've seen that covers the pdp-4 says that there were > only about 50 of them ever sold. However, Digital's own site does mention > that some were sold for nuclear applications, and the computers I got were > indeed from a nuclear lab. > > The thing is, there doesnt seem to be any mention of "Digital" or the PDP > name anywhere. > > I'll describe the computers: > > One looks newer, it says "Tracor Northern TN-1610" on the faceplate. It > has 18 ligts across the face and 18 switches directly below, in a bank > labeled "Switch Register". There is another bank of 6 ligts labeled "RUN, > CPU BUS, VIRT, PWR, BUS, USER" > There is a small bank of 3 switches labeled ADDR/DATA, PHYS/VIRT, and INTR. > There is a last bank of 6 switches labelled LOAD ADDR, EXAM, CONT, > ENAB/HALT, START, LOAD DATA. There is also a power switch. > On the bottom of the faceplate is a logo raised in plastic which I didn't > understand until I looked inside the case and found a circuit board which > said "California Data Procesors" (the logo said "CDP" in a funky '60s > style), I've never heard of CDP- perhaps I heard "PDP4" when he actually > said "CDP-4"? > > The second computer looks older. (1960's vs. 1970s). > It's faceplate says "ND812" and "Nuclear Data Inc". There is a rotating > switch labelled "Select Register" with the following positions: Status, S, > R, K, J, Address, PC, External. > There is a keyswitch with three postions: Power off, Power on, Control off. > There is a bank of 12 lights, labelled "Selected Register", the lights are > labelled 0-11 and an extra (13th) light labeled "Overflow". > > There is another bank of 12 lights, labeled "memory Register", again > labeled 0-11. Next to it is a pair of lights labeled "Memory Field" 0 or 1. > next to that is another pair of lights labeled "Run" and "Interrupt. > > Under the lights is a bank of 12 switches labeled "Switch Register". > > There are two switches simply labeled 0 and 1. > > There are two switches labeled Start and Stop > > Another two switches labeled Load AR and Load MR > > Another two labeled Next Word and Cont > > And another two labeled Step and Instr > > > The older computer seems put together in a complicated sort of way (stacked > PCB's wired together) whereas the newer one is more modular (I.E. large > cards that are simply slide in and out of sockets.) > > Both seem to have core memory but it's arranged in such a way that I can't > actually see it with out breaking some paper seals which I dont want to do > unless necessary. The parts of the boards that I can see have intricate > patterns that seem to indicate core memory (plus the guy told me that they > both used core mem). > > I have a (kind of lousy) digital camera and i can take pictures of the > faceplates if you think this might help in your identification. > > As I said, both were in use in a lab. The older one has a set of two tape > drives (they look to be regular audio cassette size) and the newer one has > one tape drive. However I was supplied with piles of punched tape programs > (i guess there was a tape reader with these computers at some point?) i was > given a lot of documentation but most of it has "NDI" written on it and it > is about taking nuclear data measurements. > Both are in large rackmount cases (which I don't have) and were mounted > with other equipment. > > > I'm interested to know what these computers are, how much they cost when > new, and what their capabilities are. Supposedly they were replaced by a > single $4000 MCI interface card in a PC. > > If you have no idea but you think you know someone who might, please do not > hesitate to suggest that person to me. > > Thank you for taking the time to read this email. > > -Kev > > > _____________________________________________ > Free email with personality! Over 200 domains! > http://www.MyOwnEmail.com > -- Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers

24 years, 10 months

[pups] mystery LSI-11 heath H11 board

by Aaron J. Grier

an electrician came in to my place of employment last week and installed some new lighting in the "engineering junkyard" which was previously a very dark place. The new light prompted me to do some exploring, and in doing so, I spotted a heath H11! unfortunately, it looks like the case has been stripped, as only one half-height board remains in the cardcage. The handle is labeled "Heath Serial I/O." I threw it on a flatbed scanner and the pictures are here: http://www.poofygoof.com/~agrier/lsi11f.jpg http://www.poofygoof.com/~agrier/lsi11b.jpg Is this one of heathkit's almost-like-DEC-but-not-quite boards? -- Aaron J. Grier | "Not your ordinary poofy goof." | agrier(a)poofygoof.com

24 years, 10 months

[pups] Needed 2.11BSD 9-track boot tapes

by Gregory R. Travis

What I have: 11/83, QBUS, 2MB, DH11, running RT-11 5.04 plus TSX - Kermit is installed on the machine 2x CDC 384MB SMD disks attached to Emulex Controller emulating MSCP 1 DigiData 800/1600 BPI 9-track drive attached to TM-11 emulating controller What I need: Way to get 2.11BSD onto one of the CDC drives (preferably not to one with RT-11). How I can do that: 1. Kermit transfer of 2.11BSD images to RT-11 q1. Is there a way to then transfer from RT-11 to one of the CDC disks? q2. Is there a way to then transfer from RT-11 to tape images on the DigiData? 2. A kind soul sends me a set of 9-track 2.11BSD tapes with boot images. 3. Other? Any takers? Thanks! greg Gregory Travis Cornerstone Information Systems ATS greg(a)ciswired.com 812 330 4361 ext. 18 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA56396 for pups-liszt; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 11:34:57 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mon Aug 14 11:30:40 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA56392 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 11:34:55 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA22875 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 11:35:27 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA56383 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 11:33:39 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA18988 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Sun, 13 Aug 2000 18:30:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 18:30:40 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200008140130.SAA18988(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: [pups] Needed 2.11BSD 9-track boot tapes Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > From: "Gregory R. Travis" <greg(a)ciswired.com> > What I have: > > 11/83, QBUS, 2MB, DH11, running RT-11 5.04 plus TSX > - Kermit is installed on the machine > 2x CDC 384MB SMD disks attached to Emulex Controller emulating MSCP > 1 DigiData 800/1600 BPI 9-track drive attached to TM-11 emulating > controller It wouldn't happen to be an Emulex UC07 or UC08 would it? If so there are a couple possibilities that open up. > How I can do that: > 1. Kermit transfer of 2.11BSD images to RT-11 Slow but sure - the sum total of data to move is close to 80mb > q1. Is there a way to then transfer from RT-11 to one > of the CDC disks? I don't think RT-11 understands the 2.11BSD filesystem so I don't think this approach can be made to work. > q2. Is there a way to then transfer from RT-11 to tape > images on the DigiData? This can be made to work but it depends on having a program that can transfer the the files "bytes as bytes" (no record format interpretation, etc) _and_ handle multiple blocking factors on the first tape. If you have the PDP-11 volume of the archives you should see in the PDP-11/Distributions/ucb/2.11BSD directory two files called 'maketape.c' and 'maketape.data'. It's a small program and if a counterpart to that could be created for RT-11 you'd be all set to go. The layout of the first tape normally is: mtboot+mtboot+boot (512 byte blocking factor) <tapemark> disklabel (1024 byte blocking factor) <tapemark> mkfs (1024 byte blocking factor) <tapemark> restor (1024 byte blocking factor) <tapemark> icheck (1024 byte blocking factor) <tapemark> root.dump (10240 byte blocking factor) <tapemark> file6.tar (10240 byte blocking factor) <tapemark> file7.tar (10240 byte blocking factor) <tapemark> <tapemark> The 2nd tape contains file8.tar blocked at 10240 bytes. The "boot" tape really only need to have the first few files, up to and including 'root.dump'. Those are enough to boot the tape, run the standalone utilties to label the disk, create the filesystem and restor the root filesystem. The tar archives can be (with suitable interpolation of the installation instructions) be placed on individual tapes. This may be necessary because file7.tar may or may not fit any longer on the first tape. Why three blocking factors? Well, partly historical and partly hardware reasons. The first "file" contains the 'bootblock' and that needs to be 512 bytes since that's all the hardware will read. The standalone i/o system uses 1024 byte blocks so the next few files use 1k records. After the standalone utilities are done and the system is loaded 'tar' can use its default 20 sector (10kb) record size. > 2. A kind soul sends me a set of 9-track 2.11BSD tapes with > boot images. My tape drive may or may not work - it's been ages since it was last powered up and I fear the rubber parts may have disintegrated (or the capacitors dried out, etc). > 3. Other? If you could find a TK70+TQK70 drive+controller that would be awesome. They're pretty cheap (less than $100 I believe - I didn't pay much for mine). Or even a TK50 drive (almost free) attached to a TQK70 would be fine. The TQK70 is a vastly better controller than the TQK50 because the former has a buffer cache that makes a huge difference is how often the tape stops moving. If the Emulex controller you have is SCSI based (UC07 or 08) then someone could stage and make available a 2.11BSD Zip disk image with all the stuff needed to boot and run the installation proceedure (I've a Zip disk attached to my UC08 - works great). Alternatively a 2.11 formatted CDROM could be created and a CDrom drive (that knew about 512 byte blocks instead of 2048 byte blocks) could be used. Good Luck! Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA57080 for pups-liszt; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 14:12:09 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Gregory R. Travis" <greg(a)ciswired.com> Mon Aug 14 13:25:30 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA57076 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 14:12:07 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA25335 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 14:12:38 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from goby.ciswired.com (IDENT:root@goby.ciswired.com [206.97.67.65]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA56900 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 13:21:38 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from greg(a)ciswired.com) Received: from weasel.ciswired.com (root(a)weasel.ciswired.com [206.97.67.73]) by goby.ciswired.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA25189; Sun, 13 Aug 2000 22:17:57 -0500 Received: from localhost (greg@localhost) by weasel.ciswired.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA30939; Sun, 13 Aug 2000 22:25:30 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: weasel.ciswired.com: greg owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 22:25:30 -0500 (EST) From: "Gregory R. Travis" <greg(a)ciswired.com> To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: [pups] Needed 2.11BSD 9-track boot tapes In-Reply-To: <200008140130.SAA18988(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10008132221010.30812-100000(a)weasel.ciswired.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Sun, 13 Aug 2000, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > > From: "Gregory R. Travis" <greg(a)ciswired.com> > > What I have: > > > > 11/83, QBUS, 2MB, DH11, running RT-11 5.04 plus TSX > > - Kermit is installed on the machine > > 2x CDC 384MB SMD disks attached to Emulex Controller emulating MSCP > > 1 DigiData 800/1600 BPI 9-track drive attached to TM-11 emulating > > controller > > It wouldn't happen to be an Emulex UC07 or UC08 would it? If so > there are a couple possibilities that open up. No, it's a DigiData board. Single QBUS board. Two 40-pin connectors. > > > How I can do that: > > 1. Kermit transfer of 2.11BSD images to RT-11 > > Slow but sure - the sum total of data to move is close to 80mb I've already been waiting a few weeks :-) > This can be made to work but it depends on having a program that can > transfer the the files "bytes as bytes" (no record format > interpretation, etc) _and_ handle multiple blocking factors on the > first tape. > > If you have the PDP-11 volume of the archives you should see in the > PDP-11/Distributions/ucb/2.11BSD directory two files called 'maketape.c' > and 'maketape.data'. It's a small program and if a counterpart to > that could be created for RT-11 you'd be all set to go. Yeah, it's the RT-11 part that I don't know. It's a little hard to believe that in 20+ years no-one has come up with an RT-11 program to build UNIX distribution tapes! :-) (again) > > 2. A kind soul sends me a set of 9-track 2.11BSD tapes with > > boot images. > > My tape drive may or may not work - it's been ages since it was > last powered up and I fear the rubber parts may have disintegrated > (or the capacitors dried out, etc). The Windex and electrical tape are on me. Did I mention that I would happiliy provide 9-track boot service in the future? That is. once I can get a system running! > If the Emulex controller you have is SCSI based (UC07 or 08) then > someone could stage and make available a 2.11BSD Zip disk image > with all the stuff needed to boot and run the installation proceedure > (I've a Zip disk attached to my UC08 - works great). > Alternatively a 2.11 formatted CDROM could be created and a CDrom > drive (that knew about 512 byte blocks instead of 2048 byte blocks) > could be used. Not SCSI, SMD/MSCP/Pertec formatted unfortunately greg Gregory Travis Cornerstone Information Systems ATS greg(a)ciswired.com 812 330 4361 ext. 18

24 years, 10 months

Re: [pups] Overlays?

by Steven M. Schultz

HI! > From: Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.eu.org> > I've just installed 2.11BSD on one of my PDPs, from a TK50 tape I just > re-discovered in the trunk of my car. And now I'm in the process of Wow - those TK50s are quite robust to survive being stored in the truck of a car. I've had audio tapes that did not survive ;) > applying patches. When I installed patch 412 and started to rebuild the > kernel, ld complains with a "ld: too big for type 431". > Does this means that I have to rearrange stuff between the BASE and the > various OV entries? Indeed it does mean exactly that. > How can I find out which overlay is too big? I've tried to do a: > 138% root--> size unix.o Yep - that is the correct method. > text data bss dec hex > 52352 6928 37622 96902 17a86 total text: 115520 > overlays: 7680,7232,7808,7744,4864,8576,4736,6848,7680 > > How big is too big? And also if none of the overlays above are too big, I > guess it must be the BASE that is too big? I thought I wrote this up at one time but I may have only thought about it ;) > Is there some sort of documentation anywhere that describe this voodoo > stuff and black magic a bit? Is it in one an Appendix to the "Setup&Installation" document? In the case above it is OV6 (overlays are numbered from 1) that is too big. The rules are: 1) BASE can be 56kb (57344) max 2) OVerlays can be 8kb (8192) max 3) There can be no 0 length overlays (except for the very last one). > Any suggestions on what .o file I should move to what overlay? Look at the Makefile - you should see a line that starts "OV6=". Do a "size" on the .o files listed for OV6. Pick one that will fix elsewhere - I'd suggest OV5 since it is only 4864 bytes and has lots of room. You could also move a .o file to the BASE since it has adequate room also. Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA20356 for pups-liszt; Tue, 1 Aug 2000 09:31:49 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Tue Aug 1 03:12:43 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA20352 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 1 Aug 2000 09:31:48 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA18497 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 1 Aug 2000 09:29:49 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA18526 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 1 Aug 2000 03:28:25 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA02116; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:12:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:12:43 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200007311712.KAA02116(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au, rblair(a)webteksdesign.com Subject: Re: [pups] makesimtape.c Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi! > From: "Ryan Blair" <rblair(a)webteksdesign.com> > > While reading back through the mailing list messages, trying to find out why > my tape images never seem to work, I came across a program that I cannot > seem to find. It was mentioned lately as "makesimtape.c" but I cannot find > it anywhere in the archives. Anybody have a lead on this? Yep - I have a lead (not too surprising since I wrote the program :)) I think the program's present in the PUPS archive in the top of the 2.11 tree area but it may have been relocated or whatever over time. Here's the program - it should compile on just about anything that has the 'mtio' ioctl functions. It is very similar to 'maketape' (intentional since makesimtape.c started out as a copy of maketape.c). Steven Schultz moe.2bsd.com -------------------------- /* * @(#)makesimtape.c 2.1 (2.11BSD) 1998/12/31 * Hacked 'maketape.c' to write a file in a format suitable for * use with Bob Supnik's PDP-11 simulator (V2.3) emulated tape * driver. * * NOTE: a PDP-11 has to flip the shorts within the long when writing out * the record size. Seems a PDP-11 is neither a little-endian * machine nor a big-endian one. */ #include <stdio.h> #include <errno.h> #include <fcntl.h> #include <stdlib.h> #include <sys/types.h> #include <sys/stat.h> #include <sys/uio.h> #define MAXB 30 char buf[MAXB * 512]; char name[50]; long recsz, flipped, trl(); int blksz; int mt, fd, cnt; struct iovec iovec[3]; struct iovec tmark[2]; void usage(); main(argc, argv) int argc; char *argv[]; { int i, j = 0, k = 0; long zero = 0; register char *outfile = NULL, *infile = NULL; FILE *mf; struct stat st; while ((i = getopt(argc, argv, "i:o:")) != EOF) { switch (i) { case 'o': outfile = optarg; break; case 'i': infile = optarg; break; default: usage(); /* NOTREACHED */ } } if (!outfile || !infile) usage(); /* NOTREACHED */ /* * Stat the outfile and make sure it either 1) Does not exist, or * 2) Exists but is a regular file. */ if (stat(outfile, &st) != -1 && !(S_ISREG(st.st_mode))) errx(1, "outfile must either not exist or be a regular file"); /* NOTREACHED */ mt = open(outfile, O_WRONLY|O_CREAT|O_TRUNC, 0600); if (mt < 0) err(1, "Can not create %s", outfile); /* NOTREACHED */ mf = fopen(infile, "r"); if (!mf) err(1, "Can not open %s", infile); /* NOTREACHED*/ tmark[0].iov_len = sizeof (long); tmark[0].iov_base = (char *)&zero; while (1) { if ((i = fscanf(mf, "%s %d", name, &blksz))== EOF) exit(0); if (i != 2) { fprintf(stderr,"Help! Scanf didn't read 2 things (%d)\n", i); exit(1); } if (blksz <= 0 || blksz > MAXB) { fprintf(stderr, "Block size %u is invalid\n", blksz); exit(1); } recsz = blksz * 512; /* convert to bytes */ iovec[0].iov_len = sizeof (recsz); #ifdef pdp11 iovec[0].iov_base = (char *)&flipped; #else iovec[0].iov_base = (char *)&recsz; #endif iovec[1].iov_len = (int)recsz; iovec[1].iov_base = buf; iovec[2].iov_len = iovec[0].iov_len; iovec[2].iov_base = iovec[0].iov_base; if (strcmp(name, "*") == 0) { if (writev(mt, tmark, 1) < 0) warn(1, "writev of pseudo tapemark failed"); k++; continue; } fd = open(name, 0); if (fd < 0) err(1, "Can't open %s for reading", name); /* NOTREACHED */ printf("%s: block %d, file %d\n", name, j, k); /* * we pad the last record with nulls * (instead of the bell std. of padding with trash). * this allows you to access text files on the * tape without garbage at the end of the file. * (note that there is no record length associated * with tape files) */ while ((cnt=read(fd, buf, (int)recsz)) == (int)recsz) { j++; #ifdef pdp11 flipped = trl(recsz); #endif if (writev(mt, iovec, 3) < 0) err(1, "writev #1"); /* NOTREACHED */ } if (cnt > 0) { j++; bzero(buf + cnt, (int)recsz - cnt); #ifdef pdp11 flipped = trl(recsz); #endif if (writev(mt, iovec, 3) < 0) err(1, "writev #2"); /* NOTREACHED */ } close(fd); } /* * Write two tape marks to simulate EOT */ writev(mt, tmark, 1); writev(mt, tmark, 1); } long trl(l) long l; { union { long l; short s[2]; } foo; register short x; foo.l = l; x = foo.s[0]; foo.s[0] = foo.s[1]; foo.s[1] = x; return(foo.l); } void usage() { fprintf(stderr, "usage: makesimtape -o outfilefile -i inputfile\n"); exit(1); }

24 years, 11 months

[pups] Overlays?

by Jorgen Pehrson

Hi, I've just installed 2.11BSD on one of my PDPs, from a TK50 tape I just re-discovered in the trunk of my car. And now I'm in the process of applying patches. When I installed patch 412 and started to rebuild the kernel, ld complains with a "ld: too big for type 431". Does this means that I have to rearrange stuff between the BASE and the various OV entries? How can I find out which overlay is too big? I've tried to do a: 138% root--> size unix.o text data bss dec hex 52352 6928 37622 96902 17a86 total text: 115520 overlays: 7680,7232,7808,7744,4864,8576,4736,6848,7680 How big is too big? And also if none of the overlays above are too big, I guess it must be the BASE that is too big? Is there some sort of documentation anywhere that describe this voodoo stuff and black magic a bit? Btw, I've put my makefile is at http://spektr.eu.org/~jp/Makefile.LOKE. Any suggestions on what .o file I should move to what overlay? Thanks! -- Jörgen Pehrson jp(a)spektr.eu.org http://spektr.eu.org/~jp/ ----------------------------------------------------------- "i must say the linux community is a lot nicer than the unix community. a negative comment on unix would warrent death threats. with linux, it is like stirring up a nest of butterflies." -- Ken Thompson. 1999 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA16344 for pups-liszt; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 21:30:05 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Ryan Blair" <rblair(a)webteksdesign.com> Sat Jul 29 07:12:05 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA16340 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 21:30:02 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA16752 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 21:28:06 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us (waverly.k12.mi.us [204.38.93.2]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA01052 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 29 Jul 2000 07:15:21 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from rblair(a)webteksdesign.com) Received: from rbp200 (pm170-19.dialip.mich.net [35.9.15.180]) by scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA84808 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 17:12:41 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rblair(a)webteksdesign.com) Message-ID: <000b01bff8d8$831b6be0$b40f0923@rbp200> From: "Ryan Blair" <rblair(a)webteksdesign.com> To: <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: [pups] makesimtape.c Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 17:12:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk While reading back through the mailing list messages, trying to find out why my tape images never seem to work, I came across a program that I cannot seem to find. It was mentioned lately as "makesimtape.c" but I cannot find it anywhere in the archives. Anybody have a lead on this? Thanks, Ryan Blair rblair(a)webteksdesign.com

24 years, 11 months

[pups] V7 vs RX50 (was Getting a MicroPDP-11 Running)

by norman＠nose.cs.utoronto.ca

400KB floppies, or even 1.4MB ones, may seem tiny now; but they should hardly be undersized for a bare-bones V7 root file system. Remember that disks weren't all that big in the late 1970s, and that one of the important fixes in V7 was that it became possible to make a file system bigger than 32MB. The V7 version of the `Setting Up UNIX' paper doesn't say just how big the root file system dump is, but the instructions say the file system itself should have 5000 blocks: about 2.4MB. If the dump was that big, it would have taken just over 6 RX50 diskettes. (But it probably wasn't that big, because there must have been a good bit of free space in the standard root--/tmp was there too!) I once ran a stripped-down V7 off a single RK05 (2.5MB including swap) for several days, during an air-conditioning crisis. The system wasn't fully-functional, but there was enough there to let the secretarial staff keep up with their typing, and even run troff. The real trouble with the RX50 is not so much the size as the speed: the damn things are painfully slow. I sometimes boot my V10 MicroVAXes from RX50, as part of an experimental Jumpstart-like installation scheme. The bare-bones installation environment requires only two floppies; the real nuisance is that it takes several minutes to read them. And, of course, V7 doesn't have an MSCP driver, since MSCP didn't hit the streets until 1982 or so. Norman Wilson

24 years, 11 months

Re: [pups] 2.11 BSD image booting

by Laurent Canet

> > In the same rut as Andy Valencia: > > I have tried booting the 2.11 BSD distribution that was in the boot images > > directory, it has something like 9 disc pack images, and a script to boot it > > with Supnik. Well, it boots all right, but I can't access most of the > > filesystem, just the root, and even there most of the files seem corrupt. It > > gets even worse when I try to shut it down. It will not even boot back up > > after I shut it down in the emulator. > > I think all the 2.11BSD disk images in Boot_Images are suspect. > I ran the 2.11bsd_on_rl02 without problems on bob supnik's emulator. (you need to issue a mount -a command after booting in order to mount the 4 RL02 disk and the 5 RK packs in correct places) I also ran the 2.11_rp_unknown on bob supnik's emulator and on p11. It worked fine except that password files were corrupted (and contained unknown passwords) So I replaced /etc/passwd*; /etc/master.passwd; /bin/passwd and /etc/mkpasswd (which was no present) with the files of the RL distribution Now it works very good, on p11 emulator under linux 2.2 with networking support. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA78042 for pups-liszt; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:21:13 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 11 months

Re: [pups] Getting a MicroPDP-11 Running

by SHOPPA＠enterprise.trailing-edge.com

>> 2.) Can it be done without a tape? If so, has anybody pulled it off? > A ~32mb disk is going to be very tight for any 2BSD system. V7 will > fit I think. But does V7 have a MSCP disk driver? Recommending to someone that all they have to do is write a driver when they don't even have a running machine yet is, IMHO, a bit optimistic :-). Of course, under the Mentec PDP-11 hobbyist program he could install RT-11 or RSX-11 or MicroRSTS on such a machine quite nicely from a bunch of RX50 or RX33 floppies he made from the Mentec CD-ROM's. >> 3.) Are there any utilities, either DOS or UNIX/Linux/FreeBSD based, to write >> and/or format RX50 floppies? > Hmmm, I thought John Wilson has some utilities that could do that. See ftp://ftp.dbit.com/pub/putr/ How many RX50's would it take to hold a root filesystem dump? 15 or so? It's not *quite* as cruel as the RX01 root distribution we discussed over some Pastrami sandwiches a couple of years back. But it is approaching the "Wagner Ring cycle on convenient 45's" stage! > On the other hand if the controller is an RQDX3 it is possible with > some luck (and more hardware skill than I have ;)) hook up a standard > 5.25" Teac floppy drive. I don't have the location of the info for > that at hand - you might try the alt.sys.pdp11 or vmsnet.pdp-11 > newsgroups (lots of knowing folks hang out there). See ftp://ftp.spc.edu/third-party-disks.txt See, it's these sorts of references we need in the PUPS FAQ list. The same questions come up every month, I give the same pointers, then everybody forgets them again, until I answer the same questions the next month :-). Tim. (shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA78068 for pups-liszt; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:21:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Wilhelm B. Kloke" <wb(a)vestein.arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de> Wed Jul 26 01:43:29 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA78064 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:21:45 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA40100 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:19:53 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from vestein.arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de (vestein.arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de [192.109.44.6]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA75848 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 01:46:28 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wb(a)vestein.arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de) Received: from yorikke.arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de (yorikke [192.109.44.12]) by vestein.arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de (8.9.2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA64551 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 17:45:10 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from wb(a)vestein.arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de) Received: (from wb@localhost) by yorikke.arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA31300 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 17:43:29 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from wb) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 17:43:29 +0200 (MET DST) From: "Wilhelm B. Kloke" <wb(a)vestein.arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de> Message-Id: <200007251543.RAA31300(a)yorikke.arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: [pups] Algol 68 for PDP11? Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi, is a location known where this may be preserved? This should be an Algol68S (P.Hibbard) compiler from CMU adapted for V7 Unix in Manitoba. At least, Andy Walker calls the beast 'Manitoba compiler'. See recent discussion in comp.lang.misc. Regards, wbk -- Dipl.-Math. Wilhelm Bernhard Kloke Institut fuer Arbeitsphysiologie an der Universitaet Dortmund Ardeystrasse 67, D-44139 Dortmund, Tel. 0231-1084-257 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA78127 for pups-liszt; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:27:06 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jul 26 08:24:51 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA78123 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:27:04 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA40198 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:25:12 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA78114 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:26:52 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA40182; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:24:52 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200007252224.IAA40182(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: [pups] Re; Algol 68 for PDP11? In-Reply-To: <200007251543.RAA31300(a)yorikke.arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de> from "Wilhelm B. Kloke" at "Jul 25, 2000 05:43:29 pm" To: "Wilhelm B. Kloke" <wb(a)vestein.arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:24:51 +1000 (EST) CC: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL68 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Wilhelm B. Kloke: > Hi, > > is a location known where this may be preserved? This should be > an Algol68S (P.Hibbard) compiler from CMU adapted for V7 Unix in Manitoba. > At least, Andy Walker calls the beast 'Manitoba compiler'. See recent > discussion in comp.lang.misc. > > Regards, wbk Is it freely available or requires a license? Regardless, I'd be happy to put it in to the PDP-11/Applications area in our Unix Archive. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA78895 for pups-liszt; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 11:22:43 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Jul 26 09:47:40 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA78890 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 11:22:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA40710 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 11:20:48 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA78548 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 09:57:48 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA05298 for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 16:47:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 16:47:40 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200007252347.QAA05298(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU Subject: Re: [pups] Getting a MicroPDP-11 Running Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > From: SHOPPA(a)enterprise.trailing-edge.com > > But does V7 have a MSCP disk driver? Recommending to someone that all they Oops - I messed up there didn't I? Concentrated so much on the size of the disk I forgot about the MSCPness of the device :( Ummm, as a matter of fact no it doesn't. Depending what version of V7 you have it may or may not even have an RL driver. > How many RX50's would it take to hold a root filesystem dump? 15 or so? Oh perhaps 8 or 9. Using RX33 disks it only took 4 floppies but the RX50 is what, 400kb (about 1/3 that of the RX33). It's more like just Siegfried on 45's rather than the entire Ring ;) > See ftp://ftp.spc.edu/third-party-disks.txt Is ftp.spc.edu still up and running? I know spc11c.spc.edu is out of action and I'm not sure home much longer the systems at SPC.EDU will keep running now that Terry's no longer there. Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com

24 years, 11 months

Re: [pups] UNIX V7 11/45 image booting

by Andy Valencia

[Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> writes:] >UNIX V7 is contained on a single RL02 disk image. To boot UNIX: >... >Hope this helps! Thanks! (Don't know how I missed this. :-<) Yes, it helped, and I'm now the proud owner of a (virtual) single-user V7 box. Time to hack! Andy Valencia Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA71804 for pups-liszt; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:13:39 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Ryan Blair" <rblair(a)webteksdesign.com> Tue Jul 25 10:08:16 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA71800 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:13:37 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA35346 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:11:49 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us (scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us [204.38.93.2]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA71785 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:11:50 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from rblair(a)webteksdesign.com) Received: from rbp200 (pm098-06.dialip.mich.net [35.9.14.47]) by scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA09047 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:09:13 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rblair(a)webteksdesign.com) Message-ID: <001901bff5cc$8c02f200$2f0e0923@rbp200> From: "Ryan Blair" <rblair(a)webteksdesign.com> To: <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: [pups] 2.11 BSD image booting Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:08:16 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In the same rut as Andy Valencia: I have tried booting the 2.11 BSD distribution that was in the boot images directory, it has something like 9 disc pack images, and a script to boot it with Supnik. Well, it boots all right, but I can't access most of the filesystem, just the root, and even there most of the files seem corrupt. It gets even worse when I try to shut it down. It will not even boot back up after I shut it down in the emulator. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA71852 for pups-liszt; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:16:23 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue Jul 25 10:14:09 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA71848 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:16:21 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA35378 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:14:34 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA71837 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:16:01 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA35364; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:14:09 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200007250014.KAA35364(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: [pups] 2.11 BSD image booting In-Reply-To: <001901bff5cc$8c02f200$2f0e0923@rbp200> from Ryan Blair at "Jul 24, 2000 08:08:16 pm" To: Ryan Blair <rblair(a)webteksdesign.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:14:09 +1000 (EST) CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL68 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Ryan Blair: [Charset iso-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...] > In the same rut as Andy Valencia: > I have tried booting the 2.11 BSD distribution that was in the boot images > directory, it has something like 9 disc pack images, and a script to boot it > with Supnik. Well, it boots all right, but I can't access most of the > filesystem, just the root, and even there most of the files seem corrupt. It > gets even worse when I try to shut it down. It will not even boot back up > after I shut it down in the emulator. I think all the 2.11BSD disk images in Boot_Images are suspect. I wonder if we could prevail upon Steven Schultz (or someone) to build some 2.11BSD disk images which would be suitable for the Supnik and Ersatz emulators. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA71925 for pups-liszt; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:29:28 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Jul 25 10:22:40 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA71921 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:29:26 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA35426 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:27:38 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (root(a)wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA71891 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:24:57 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from grog(a)wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA31930; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 09:52:40 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 09:52:40 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au Cc: Ryan Blair <rblair(a)webteksdesign.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] 2.11 BSD image booting Message-ID: <20000725095240.B98476(a)wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <001901bff5cc$8c02f200$2f0e0923@rbp200> <200007250014.KAA35364(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <200007250014.KAA35364(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>; from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au on Tue, Jul 25, 2000 at 10:14:09AM +1000 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tuesday, 25 July 2000 at 10:14:09 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Ryan Blair: > [Charset iso-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...] >> In the same rut as Andy Valencia: >> I have tried booting the 2.11 BSD distribution that was in the boot images >> directory, it has something like 9 disc pack images, and a script to boot it >> with Supnik. Well, it boots all right, but I can't access most of the >> filesystem, just the root, and even there most of the files seem corrupt. It >> gets even worse when I try to shut it down. It will not even boot back up >> after I shut it down in the emulator. > > I think all the 2.11BSD disk images in Boot_Images are suspect. > > I wonder if we could prevail upon Steven Schultz (or someone) > to build some 2.11BSD disk images which would be suitable for the > Supnik and Ersatz emulators. I had some somewhere, but I haven't run them for a while. They're also very big. Greg -- Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA72058 for pups-liszt; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:01:35 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Jeremy Bingham <jeremy(a)mail.flyingcroc.net> Tue Jul 25 10:37:47 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA72054 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:01:33 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA35561 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:59:46 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from gilliam.users.flyingcroc.net (gilliam.users.flyingcroc.net [207.246.128.2]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA71964 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:39:52 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jeremy(a)mail.flyingcroc.net) Received: from localhost (jeremy@localhost) by gilliam.users.flyingcroc.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA76771 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 17:37:47 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 17:37:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeremy Bingham <jeremy(a)mail.flyingcroc.net> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: [pups] Getting a MicroPDP-11 Running Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0007241715580.62180-100000(a)gilliam.users.flyingcroc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk I just acquired a MicroPDP-11 from a Goodwill a couple of days ago with a RX50-A dual 400KB floppy and an RD52 31/33(?)MB hard drive, but it doesn't have a tape drive. My questions are: 1.) What UNIXes have been successfully loaded onto these types of machines? 2.) Can it be done without a tape? If so, has anybody pulled it off? 3.) Are there any utilities, either DOS or UNIX/Linux/FreeBSD based, to write and/or format RX50 floppies? I tried looking through the mail archive, but there didn't seem to be anything there that addressed this question. Thanks in advance to everybody. -j ---------------------------------------------------------- You know you've been spending too much time on the computer when your friend misdates a check, and you suggest adding a "++" to fix it. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA72592 for pups-liszt; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:28:58 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Tue Jul 25 13:00:06 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA72588 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:28:57 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA36970 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:27:09 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA72507 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:12:45 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA22851; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:00:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:00:06 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200007250300.UAA22851(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: rblair(a)webteksdesign.com, wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] 2.11 BSD image booting Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Howdy - > From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> > In article by Ryan Blair: > > In the same rut as Andy Valencia: > > I have tried booting the 2.11 BSD distribution that was in the boot images > > directory, it has something like 9 disc pack images, and a script to boot it > > with Supnik. Well, it boots all right, but I can't access most of the > > filesystem, just the root, and even there most of the files seem corrupt. > > I think all the 2.11BSD disk images in Boot_Images are suspect. Hmmm, I don't think they're corrupt. Wasn't there a similar posting a month or two ago about someone (I forget who it was) having "massive corruption". It turned out that the simulator was only told to use 256kb of memory (18bit mode). Once the "set cpu 2048k" command was added to the conf file the problems cleared right up. A good case can be made that it's a bug the system doesn't outright crash if it's unhappy with the amount of memory but given it's so easy to 'add memory' to the system I can't work up any enthusiasm to track down and fix the problem ;) > I wonder if we could prevail upon Steven Schultz (or someone) > to build some 2.11BSD disk images which would be suitable for the > Supnik and Ersatz emulators. Well, one could take the tape images that are in the archive and run the suitable tape preparation program ('makesimtape' for Supnik's simulator and I think makesimtape.c is around in the archive as well). Might need a "toggle in" boot for that (it's in the 2.11 setup and installation guide) though since I do not recall the Supnik simulator knowing how to boot from tape. Try putting "set cpu 2048k" (I don't _think_ you need both "set cpu 22b" and "set cpu 2048k" but having both doesn't hurt and may help). Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA72598 for pups-liszt; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:29:21 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Tue Jul 25 13:18:29 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA72594 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:29:19 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA36985 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:27:31 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA72576 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:27:49 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA23005; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:18:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:18:29 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200007250318.UAA23005(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: jeremy(a)mail.flyingcroc.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] Getting a MicroPDP-11 Running Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi! > From: Jeremy Bingham <jeremy(a)mail.flyingcroc.net> > I just acquired a MicroPDP-11 from a Goodwill a couple of days ago with a Wow - that's a source for PDP-11s I would never have thought of :) > RX50-A dual 400KB floppy and an RD52 31/33(?)MB hard drive, but it doesn't > have a tape drive. My questions are: > 1.) What UNIXes have been successfully loaded onto these types of machines? I think we need just one more little piece of information before we can match up a version of Unix with your new machine. We need to know if it's an 11/23 (23+), or an 11/53 (73). The label "MicroPDP-11" was used on a number of systems. If it's a 53 or better then you can run any of the PDP-11 Unix systems that are out there. If it's a 23 class machine then you're limited to V7 or earlier (2.9BSD would probably fit but it would be a struggle and you definitely wouldn't be able to use the networking). Looking at the system maint register with the console ODT would probably be the easiest way to determine the cpu type - examine location 177750 (or 17777750 depending if the system needs the explicit 22 bit address). Bits 4 thru 7 tell the module type: 5 = KDJ-11E (93, 94), 4 = KDJ-11D (53), 3 = KXJ11-C, 2 = KDJ11B (quad high 73), 1 = KDJ-11A (dual high board 73). If it's a 23 the sys maint register probably doesn't exist. Another way would be to look at the module number on the spine of the card ;) > 2.) Can it be done without a tape? If so, has anybody pulled it off? A ~32mb disk is going to be very tight for any 2BSD system. V7 will fit I think. > 3.) Are there any utilities, either DOS or UNIX/Linux/FreeBSD based, to write > and/or format RX50 floppies? Hmmm, I thought John Wilson has some utilities that could do that. Normally you need to buy preformatted RX50 disks or have a DEC Rainbow (DOS) system around. On the other hand if the controller is an RQDX3 it is possible with some luck (and more hardware skill than I have ;)) hook up a standard 5.25" Teac floppy drive. I don't have the location of the info for that at hand - you might try the alt.sys.pdp11 or vmsnet.pdp-11 newsgroups (lots of knowing folks hang out there). Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA72804 for pups-liszt; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 14:19:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com> Tue Jul 25 14:16:09 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA72800 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 14:19:39 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA37187 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 14:17:51 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from zippy.bernstein.com (zippy.bernstein.com [206.20.83.202]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA72792 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 14:18:46 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com) Received: (from entropy@localhost) by zippy.bernstein.com (8.10.2/8.8.8) id e6P4G9T17046; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 00:16:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 00:16:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200007250416.e6P4G9T17046(a)zippy.bernstein.com> From: maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com> To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com CC: jeremy(a)mail.flyingcroc.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au In-reply-to: <200007250318.UAA23005(a)moe.2bsd.com> (sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Subject: Re: [pups] Getting a MicroPDP-11 Running References: <200007250318.UAA23005(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:18:29 -0700 (PDT) >From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> > >> From: Jeremy Bingham <jeremy(a)mail.flyingcroc.net> >> [...] >> 3.) Are there any utilities, either DOS or UNIX/Linux/FreeBSD based, to write >> and/or format RX50 floppies? > > Hmmm, I thought John Wilson has some utilities that could do that. > Normally you need to buy preformatted RX50 disks or have a DEC Rainbow > (DOS) system around. > > On the other hand if the controller is an RQDX3 it is possible with > some luck (and more hardware skill than I have ;)) hook up a standard > 5.25" Teac floppy drive. I don't have the location of the info for > that at hand - you might try the alt.sys.pdp11 or vmsnet.pdp-11 > newsgroups (lots of knowing folks hang out there). http://vaxarchive.org/hw/rx50.html ...contains a good FAQ with some useful links, including a link to John Wilson's stuff at DBIT. I'm also appending here a file with some informative messages on the subject. I had this file stored away with a bunch of Venix images for the Pro. I don't remember if this file (RX50.notes) came with the Venix stuff, or if I collected them together myself. I'm pretty sure it's the former, but I couldn't find any links to it by searching the net. Anyway, here it is... >From barry(a)chezmoto.ai.mit.edu Tue Aug 4 08:14:38 1992 >From: barry(a)chezmoto.ai.mit.edu (Barry Kort) >Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro >Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC >Date: 2 Aug 92 11:53:41 GMT >Organization: MicroMuse >In-reply-to: keithr(a)garfield.cs.mun.ca's message of 1 Aug 92 01:10:53 GMT > >I use the RX50DRVR on my AT which allows my 1.2 MB drive to read RX50 >diskettes. What this does is to create a new driveletter (F:) which >spins the HD drive as if it were an RX50 drive. > >RX50DRVR does not know anything about the directory structure on >the disks. If I do 'dir F:' it assumes DOS directory structure, >which works fine on Rainbow diskettes, since they use the DOS >directory structure. > >To read RT11 formatted diskettes, there is a utility called RT11 >which groks the RT11 file structure. I have not yet found a similar >utility which handles the RMS-11 file structure of the PRO 3xx series. > >I can use Norton Utilities with RX50DRVR to examine the RX50 diskette >in the F: drive, but then I am accessing the diskette sector by sector, >not by logical file. > >I haven't explored the new utilities from the gentlemen in the Former >Soviet Union who have announced some DOS environment tools for >manipulating RX50 diskettes. > >Using RX50DRVR in combination with the RT11 utility program, I can >low-level format a blank HD diskette as an RX50 diskette, then >put it in the PRO and do a high-level RMS-11 style Initialization. >This allows me to create new RX50 diskettes out of plain old unformatted >or recycled 1.2 MB HD diskettes. > >Using Venix on the PRO, I can do a raw image copy of a diskette in one >drive to a blank diskette in another drive. (This kind of copy will fail >if the target diskette has any bad sectors, since there is no attempt >to rearrange sectors to detour around any bad blocks.) > >Finally, by hooking up the PRO to a Unix or DOS machine via the >COM port (or to a Unix host via Ethernet/DECnet if you have a DECNA >card), you can transfer files via any number of techniques, ranging >>from straight ASCII upload/capture using ordinary terminal emulators, >Kermit file transfers if you have Kermit on both machines, or by >DECnet file transfer using NFT or dcp utilities. > >None of this is particularly trivial to implement, but the bottom >line is that there are many ways to pull files off RX50 diskettes >and transfer them to Unix or DOS machines. > >Barry Kort > >From cosc16to(a)menudo.uh.edu Tue Aug 4 08:14:48 1992 >From: cosc16to(a)menudo.uh.edu (Andy Hakim) >Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro >Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC >Date: 2 Aug 92 19:45:22 GMT >Organization: University of Houston >X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4 > >barry(a)chezmoto.ai.mit.edu (Barry Kort) writes: >: >: Using RX50DRVR in combination with the RT11 utility program, I can >: low-level format a blank HD diskette as an RX50 diskette, then >: put it in the PRO and do a high-level RMS-11 style Initialization. >: This allows me to create new RX50 diskettes out of plain old unformatted >: or recycled 1.2 MB HD diskettes. >: >: Using Venix on the PRO, I can do a raw image copy of a diskette in one >: drive to a blank diskette in another drive. (This kind of copy will fail >: if the target diskette has any bad sectors, since there is no attempt >: to rearrange sectors to detour around any bad blocks.) > > >Another method of obtaining a formatted disk for the Pro-3xx, is to >use an image copy program called Teledisk (shareware) for the PC. Not only >does this program allow you to do a disk-to-disk copy, but it can also >store a disk into a file (on the PC). This way, it is possible to keep an >image file of a blank P/OS formatted disk, and then crank out new copies >easily. > >In my experience, low density disks (360k) on a high density (1.2m) AT class >drives seem to work out best. > >-andy > >From lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu Tue Aug 4 08:14:56 1992 >From: lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) >Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro >Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC >Date: 3 Aug 92 06:39:56 GMT >Reply-To: lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) >Organization: Columbia University >Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu > >In article <1992Aug2.194522.18244(a)menudo.uh.edu> cosc16to(a)menudo.uh.edu (Andy Hakim) writes: >> >>Another method of obtaining a formatted disk for the Pro-3xx, is to >>use an image copy program called Teledisk (shareware) for the PC. Not only >>does this program allow you to do a disk-to-disk copy, but it can also >>store a disk into a file (on the PC). This way, it is possible to keep an >>image file of a blank P/OS formatted disk, and then crank out new copies >>easily. > >Where can I obtain Teledisk? Does it require any low-level preformatting >of the media on the target? > >IF you use DR-DOS and RAINDOS (but not RX50DRVR) you can use DISKCOPY and >DISKCOMP to copy RX50 MS-DOS diskettes to each other, or to files on the >hard disk: > >DISKCOPY E: C:\RX50DISK.IMG > >DISKCOPY E: E: > >DISKCOPY C:\RX50DISK.IMG E: > >DISKCOMP E: C:\RX50DISK.IMG > >When writing the file or disk image onto a target disk, the diskette has to >be already formatted as a low-level RX50, yet there are no high-level >considerations, so non-DOS RX50's can be directly used as targets! > >Of course input diskettes have to already be MS-DOS RX50 DECmate II/Rainbow >diskettes because of DOS restrictions. > >Note that DOS 5 cannot do anything but "standard" disk sizes, and can't >copy disk images to files at all. > >> >>In my experience, low density disks (360k) on a high density (1.2m) AT class >>drives seem to work out best. > >And without hub rings is better. If you suspect that a disk is actually >high-density when it has no hub rings, there is a simple test: > >Just format it as a normal 1.2 Meg disk. a low-density diskette will get >hundreds of Kbytes in bad sectors, while a HD diskette will get little or >no errors, thus proving it unsuitable for RX50 purposes. Most disks with >hub rings are already clearly low-density, but after you remove them, this >will prove a quick check for actual diskette formulation. > >cjl > >From cosc16to(a)menudo.uh.edu Tue Aug 4 08:15:02 1992 >From: cosc16to(a)menudo.uh.edu (Andy Hakim) >Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro >Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC >Date: 3 Aug 92 16:42:35 GMT >Organization: University of Houston >X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4 > >lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) writes: >: >: Where can I obtain Teledisk? Does it require any low-level preformatting >: of the media on the target? >: >I checked the ftp site "wuarchive.wustle.edu", it is in directory >"mirrors2/msdos/dskutl" as file "teled212.zip". > >Nope, this one does not require any low level preformatting. It's possible >to stick in a brand new ds/dd and let it go. Incidently, teledisk is >made by the same people, Sydex, who make 22disk. > >-andy > >From cosc16to(a)menudo.uh.edu Tue Aug 4 08:15:11 1992 >From: cosc16to(a)menudo.uh.edu (Andy Hakim) >Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro >Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC >Date: 3 Aug 92 16:54:30 GMT >Organization: University of Houston >X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4 > >: I checked the ftp site "wuarchive.wustle.edu", it is in directory >: "mirrors2/msdos/dskutl" as file "teled212.zip". > >Correction, it's spelled "wuarchive.wustl.edu" with a missing 'e'. > >Host nic.switch.ch (130.59.1.40) > Location: /mirror/msdos/dskutl > FILE rw-rw-r-- 93805 Dec 23 1990 teled212.zip > >Host ftp.uu.net (137.39.1.9) > Location: /systems/msdos/simtel20/dskutl > FILE rw-r--r-- 93805 Dec 22 1990 teled212.zip > >Host wuarchive.wustl.edu (128.252.135.4) > Location: /mirrors3/garbo.uwasa.fi/diskutil > FILE rw-rw-r-- 94075 Dec 11 1990 teled212.zip > Location: /mirrors/msdos/dskutl > FILE rw-r--r-- 93805 Dec 23 1990 teled212.zip > >archie> > >From lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu Tue Aug 4 08:15:17 1992 >From: lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) >Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro >Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC >Date: 4 Aug 92 05:55:11 GMT >Reply-To: lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) >Organization: Columbia University >Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu > >In article <1992Aug3.164235.1187(a)menudo.uh.edu> cosc16to(a)menudo.uh.edu (Andy Hakim) writes: >>lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) writes: >>: >>: Where can I obtain Teledisk? Does it require any low-level preformatting >>: of the media on the target? >>: >>I checked the ftp site "wuarchive.wustle.edu", it is in directory >>"mirrors2/msdos/dskutl" as file "teled212.zip". >> >>Nope, this one does not require any low level preformatting. It's possible >>to stick in a brand new ds/dd and let it go. Incidently, teledisk is >>made by the same people, Sydex, who make 22disk. >> >>-andy > >Sydex also makes RAINDOS. > >I suspect that teledisk will only make sector-compatible descendents though, >so if I have a specially layed-out version of a diskette (such as 2:1 >interleave or staggered, etc.) the descendent will lose that aspect of >optimization, and will instead become "vanilla" RX50 format in the >case of RX50 diskette. > >The point is that certain software, especially for DECmates not specifically >geared to CP/M-80, and *any* bootable DECmate diskette (including CP/M-80) the >format used in stock RX50 layout is non-optimal. There are different >requirements for different specific applications, but just as on PC's, the >use of non-interleaved non-staggered disks can be demonstrated to be >inferior to a variant in terms of sector ordering at the low format level. > >Rainbow MS-DOS disks have an implied software interleave of 2:1 for the >FAT area, and 1:1 in the rest; this is in software, so the standard disk >layout should be maintained, except that the *stagger* is not taken into >account. Thus, like a PC, Rainbow MS-DOS disks should be formatted with a >stagger of 2 per track. Thus track 1 is layed out 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 and >track 2 is layed out 9,10,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8. When the disk seeks from track 1 >to track 2, it will thus miss 9 and 10, but immediately find 1. Were the >stagger not there, it would miss 1 and 2, and reject 3,4,5,6,7,8,9 while >waiting for 1 to come around again. Thus staggering relieves rotational >latency. > >For the DECmate, there are two additional problems: > >All bootable diskettes require the logically sequential reading of tracks >78, 79 in the order 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10. But the RX >interface of the DECmate can't perform 1:1 interleave ever, so this is >anti-optimal not only in stagger but more importantly in interleave. Thus, >this area of the disk should be formatted with an interleave of 2:1 as well >as a stagger of 2. Thus the disk is layed out: > >track 78: 1,6,2,7,3,8,4,9,5,10 >track 79: 5,10,1,6,2,7,3,8,4,9 > >This restriction is based on the ROM routines that read in this area in linear >order. This is mostly why all DECmates take so long to boot up! Changing to >a better sector order will chop seconds out of the boot time. > >Further, all systems other than CP/M-80 require some form of help, mostly >applying the stagger that helps the Rainbow as well (again other than CP/M). >For DECmate MS-DOS, tracks 0-3 should be in 1-1 interleave because the software >already maps the disk in 2:1 usage. tracks 4-79 should be formatted 2:1 >interleave to help out the RX interface when the Rainbow-optimal ordering >is invoked (similar to the DECmate ROM access, and just as inefficient on >a DECmate). > >OS/278 does a software 2:1 interleave, so the only help needed is a >disk-wide stagger factor of 2. > >Note that RT-11 and all other -11-oriented disks should use stock format only >because this superior software maps all sectors to include both the 2-1 >interleave and stagger of 2 already. > >So, if Teledisk is a *really* good utility, it won't disturb the format's >stagger and interleave as it copies the disks! > >cjl > >From lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu Tue Aug 4 08:15:23 1992 >From: lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) >Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro >Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC >Date: 3 Aug 92 05:39:27 GMT >Reply-To: lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) >Organization: Columbia University >Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu > >In article <BARRY.92Aug2075341(a)chezmoto.ai.mit.edu> barry(a)chezmoto.ai.mit.edu (Barry Kort) writes: >>I use the RX50DRVR on my AT which allows my 1.2 MB drive to read RX50 >>diskettes. What this does is to create a new driveletter (F:) which >>spins the HD drive as if it were an RX50 drive. > >RX50DRVR, like RAINDOS, creates a new logical drive past your last existent >drive, so it's F: for you because you apparently have an A: through E: before >the driver gets loaded in CONFIG.SYS. > >> >>RX50DRVR does not know anything about the directory structure on >>the disks. If I do 'dir F:' it assumes DOS directory structure, >>which works fine on Rainbow diskettes, since they use the DOS >>directory structure. > >That's not quite true, since the disk organization has to be DOS as implemented >on DECmate II MSDOS/Rainbow MS-DOS only. It is true only in the sense that >you can make your own BIOS calls to read the disks yourself without caring >about the significence. But that's no different from doing so with any >floppy on a PC. > >> >>To read RT11 formatted diskettes, there is a utility called RT11 >>which groks the RT11 file structure. I have not yet found a similar >>utility which handles the RMS-11 file structure of the PRO 3xx series. > >Where can I get this RT11 utility? It sounds useful. Does it specifically >require/recognize the RX50DRVR or does it merely work in an innocuous way >with the same drive letter? (Would it work also with A:? or must it have >RX50DRVR present. If so, would it work with RAINDOS as an alternative?) > >> >>I can use Norton Utilities with RX50DRVR to examine the RX50 diskette >>in the F: drive, but then I am accessing the diskette sector by sector, >>not by logical file. >> >>I haven't explored the new utilities from the gentlemen in the Former >>Soviet Union who have announced some DOS environment tools for >>manipulating RX50 diskettes. > >Re the Soviet-originating files: > >The files come with a piece of shareware originating in Italy that intercepts >DOS's calls for formatting commands, so that "odd" sizes, such as using: >FORMAT A: /T:80 /N:10 are now legal. The result is a double-sided disk that >is quite suitably low-level formatted for RX50, but the high-level is PC >compatible, *not* DECmate/Rainbow's idea of MS-DOS, and specifically must be >used on a "normal" drive and *not* with RX50DRVR. All media indicators are >stock PC-type, not RX50. However, since the low-level is now correct, and >errors are recorded in a way that FORMAT indicated when it finished, and can >be re-confirmed with CHKDSK, etc., the media can be determined to be error- >free hopefully. If so, then the companion program RX50INIT that comes with >RX50DRVR can be used to initialize the directory so DECmate/Rainbow MS-DOS >likes the disk, and of course the RX50DRVR-controlled logical device such as >F: in your example. Note also that RX50INIT can be used with RAINDOS as well. >Also, RX50INIT requires ANSI.SYS be loaded purely for cosmetic reasons. >RX50DRVR and RX50INIT were designed for DOS 3.3 usage. They don't support the >extensions to DOS brought into versions 4 and 5, so there are some problems. >RX50INIT fails totally in those two systems, and CHKDSK can't work there >either. With some adjustment to the BUFFERS= statement in CONFIG.SYS, they >can be made to work for read/write purposes under DOS 4 or 5. > > >When used with DR-DOS 6.0, all RX50DRVR and RX50INIT functions work fine. > > >> >>Using RX50DRVR in combination with the RT11 utility program, I can >>low-level format a blank HD diskette as an RX50 diskette, then >>put it in the PRO and do a high-level RMS-11 style Initialization. >>This allows me to create new RX50 diskettes out of plain old unformatted >>or recycled 1.2 MB HD diskettes. > >Just a word about using HD media: > >You can't reliably use HD media on an actual RX50, because the coercivity >is too far off in HD media. It was designed for the higher-frequency >recording of the "real" 1.2 Meg format (500 KHz) and not the 250 KHz recording >rate of the RX50, which is actually the same as good 'ol DS/DD media (360K >kid of media). Some revisions of RX50 drive in comination with certain RX >controllers in some DEC machins fare better than others, but it can be >demonstrated that a lot of combinations don't particularly "like" HD >media. > >The designated media for RX50 is Maxell MD1DD-RX50 or equivalent, which is >what used to be called "quad" media. This is well-honed low-density media, >so it is rated for use on 96 TPI (80 track) drives, not just 48 TPI (40 track) >drives as is usual. Note that MD2D is not MD2DD. (The 2 just means two-sided >which for all intents and purposes today can be ignored; virtuall *all* media >is actually made double-sided :-).) The DD means 80-track support, but since >most media are made well-honed, most cheap disks can support 80 tracks anyway. >These disks will *not* cause I/O errors on any RX50! However, long-term usage >requires the hub rings be removed completely (use alcohol to get the sticky >stuff off, or ask your supplier for no-hub disks!). Failing to remove >hub rings means eventually the disks will get unreliable sooner than they >ought to due to registration problems. All 96 TPI disks have this problem. >Note that MD2HD and MD1DD don't have hub rings! It is rumored that there is >a "premium" line of diskettes from Fuji apart from their standard line of >inexpensive diskettes that has a specially reinforced hub area, that isn't >a hub ring per se. If the same mechanism is used in both HD and DD media, >then the DD type would be the best thing today to use with impunity for >RX50. Clearly the MD1DD or MD2DD or MD1DD or the 3M equivalents are too >expensive, considering that what we want are the cheapest types of diskettes >with the hub rings never added. (We don't want to pay more for less!) > >Re RT-11 utility: > >I don't know anything about the RT11 utility program, but RX50DRVR cannot >format disks; the code lacks support for the FORMAT command, and also some >calls needed by both CHKDSK and FORMAT. Attempts to use either on DOS 4 >or 5 will get error messages. Even on 3.3, where CHKDSK is more "forgiving" >you still get the message about "format not supported on device" when >using RX50DRVR. So, if your claim for formatting is true, the RT11 utility >must contain low-level formatting code of its own, and perhaps only needs >RX50DRVR to locate the proper device? > >RAINDOS is a share-ware mostly superset of RX50DRVR, and it totally supports >CHKDSK and FORMAT in DOS 4 and 5. It works fine with RX50INIT (assuming that >RX50INIT can work!) and suffers from only two known problems: > >1) Should you specify a format command with the FORMAT F: command, >and the O/S is DR-DOS 6, then if it really does attempt a low-level format, >it gets a cryptic error message and fails. Note that MS-DOS 5 and DR-DOS 6 >will always attempt a "quick" format if possible, unless over-ridden. This >case of a quick format doesn't fail, but also isn't formatting! Just >rewriting a cleaned-up high-level format directory initialize. > >2) It is sometimes strangely slow, as compared to RX50DRVR where both >could work. When using Norton 4.5's DT program, RX50DRVR handles the >disk at normal speed, and allows DT to mark bad clusters (if any) quite >nicely. When RAINDOS is used, it causes many recalibrates for unknown >reasons. In some cases, the sloth isn't that noticeable, but this is a >sore point usage. > >Otherwise, RAINDOS is a total replacement for RX50DRVR, or so it would seem. >Norton NU treats RX50DRVR diskettes and RAINDOS diskettes equally since it >does one-sector I/O. > >> >>Using Venix on the PRO, I can do a raw image copy of a diskette in one >>drive to a blank diskette in another drive. (This kind of copy will fail >>if the target diskette has any bad sectors, since there is no attempt >>to rearrange sectors to detour around any bad blocks.) >> >>Finally, by hooking up the PRO to a Unix or DOS machine via the >>COM port (or to a Unix host via Ethernet/DECnet if you have a DECNA >>card), you can transfer files via any number of techniques, ranging >>from straight ASCII upload/capture using ordinary terminal emulators, >>Kermit file transfers if you have Kermit on both machines, or by >>DECnet file transfer using NFT or dcp utilities. >> >>None of this is particularly trivial to implement, but the bottom >>line is that there are many ways to pull files off RX50 diskettes >>and transfer them to Unix or DOS machines. >> >>Barry Kort > >If the Soviet files prove to work, and apparently requiring the Italian >TSR shareware program, we can probably make Files-11 RX50 diskettes as well. >I have just received these programs and will be evaluating them when feasible. >I am still working with the accompanying Italian shareware which has some >interesting "generic" features of its own with respect to the entire RX50 >issue. I suspect that its presence enhances any of these utilities, although >it's possible redundant and perhaps extraneous to some of the utilities. > >In any case, there are many ways to get files moved around. > >Another excellent package is 22DISK from Sydex, the same shareware author >as RAINDOS. This package low-level formats RX50's in either DECmate CP/M-80 >or Rainbow CP/M-80/86 format. (They are similar, but not identical, although >they can read each other's disks no sweat; it's a matter of interleave, etc. >and a throughput issue, not a format per se issue.) It then high-level >formats the disks for CP/M usage. So, its a good place to do the low-level >formatting required for all of these other utilities. For example, on >DR-DOS 6, you first run 22DISK to format the disk, then use RX50INIT to get >an RX50 MS-DOS DECmate/Rainbow high-level structure, and then can use >RAINDOS to transfer files, run CHKDSK, and do quick-formats with FORMAT /Q, >etc. Notice this avoids all of the Raindos/DR-DOS interaction :-). > >22DISK can get directory listings of CP/M disks, and can transfer files >to/from MS-DOS from/to the designated CP/M diskette. It supports literally >hundreds of CP/M formats, which implies many low and high-level support >variants. This program is highly reminiscent of the former Rainbow, and >later PC-based "Media Master" program, but is for PC/MS-DOS only, and >requires HD drives for the RX50 formats. > >I believe there is an obscure PRO option for a CP/M-80 board, so this might >be yet another way to get files in/out of a PRO. > >So, like cats, there are many ways to "skin" an RX50 :-). > >cjl > >From lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu Tue Aug 4 08:15:29 1992 >From: lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) >Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro >Subject: Good report on Teledisk. >Date: 4 Aug 92 07:27:25 GMT >Reply-To: lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) >Organization: Columbia University >Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu > >I have down-loaded Sydex's teledisk, and have found it to exceed my >expectations in some useful ways. > >For starters, all of my attentions are based on the problems of distributing >RX50 diskettes not necessarily in stock format, and not yet having any >satisfactory way of creating the necessary disks. > >Background: > >There are several desirable variant formats for RX50 that have been discussed >elsewhere. The only known program to create them is FDFORMAT for PC's. While >this freeware program is generally quite good, it has a few crucial bugs that >make it unsuitable for RX50 usage. It is conceivable that this will be >solved by using some additional/non-standard parameters to FDFORMAT to create >usable disks, but in any case, the use of all obvious parameters yields disks >that are flakey on some RX50's, and downright unreadable on others. In >addition, these disks are so messed up that a DECmate can't even WRITE on the >disks and read back what it just wrote reliably! Yet, this isn't a media >problem because it can be demonstrated that the problem disappears by >low-level format of the same diskette with either Sydex's RAINDOS or 22DISK >packages. (Note that *some* RX50 systems using some newer-designed controllers >and/or higher revision drives and/or RX50-compatibility modes on different >drives have little or no problems with these FDFORMATted diskettes; indeed >the diskettes are fine on a PC; there's some low-level detail that's incorrect >about FDFORMATted diskettes. Some parameter is being set to a PC-acceptable >value that doesn't center on RX50's requirements. Perhaps this will be >uncovered at a later time obviating this entire discussion. Until such a >time, FDFORMAT cannot be used to create RX50 diskettes that are readable on >*all* RX50 systems. FDFORMAT also has a few other operational bugs, such as >incorrect recognition of certain I/O errors, etc., but these are exception >cases, and for all other PC purposes, it serves quite admirably.) > >The reason why FDFORMAT is desirable is that it is the only known program >capable of creating the variant RX50 formats where the format must be >done with interleave and stagger factors, especially if the disk must have >"zones" where the format changes. For example, to create a disk best suited >for DECmate OS/278 usage, the following *TWO* commands should be given: > >FDFORMAT A: /T:80 /N:10 /1 /Y:2 /I:2 >FDFORMAT A: /T:78 /N:10 /1 /Y:2 > >The first command creates a disk with an interleave of 2:1 and a stagger of >2 throughout. The second command changes tracks 0-77 to have 1:1 interleave >and a stagger of 2 throughout. > >When OS/278 is copied onto such a diskette, the "slushware" tracks are read >in much faster than on standard RX50 diskettes, and all access to the rest of >the diskette is speeded somewhat because of the stagger factor which overcomes >the software's lack of stagger mapping. But since the software does map the >sector order into a 2:1 interleave, the hardware order must stay in 1:1 >interleave sequence. > >This would be a nice disk to use for the intended purpose, but many DECmates >will be unable to read this diskette. Literally, it will get a CRC error >on *every* sector! Furthermore, if you attempt to write an image of the >software onto this diskette, it will get a CRC error on *every* sector even >though it just wrote the disk out! > >Enter Teledisk to the rescue! > >When I read Teledisk's documentation, I had doubts that it could solve >this problem, because I noticed it could be quite "smart", perhaps *too* >smart! It claims that it can get around certain copy-protection methods >by virtue of how it operates, so I figured that it would likely copy the >problems of FDFORMAT as well :-(. Or, alternatively, it might guess that >the diskette was an RX50 and proceed to format it in a stock manner, thus >destroying the optimization applied by using the two FDFORMAT commands instead >of just using RAINDOS or 22DISK to create stock low-level RX50 diskettes. > >Well, I was wrong on both counts! > >Teledisk understands how to maintain sector order, and pointed out the >change of interleave from 1:1 to 2:1 at track 78, so that problem is >hurdled. > >Teledisk understands that these sectors should be formatted with apparently >the same parameters as the formatting routines in 22DISK and RAINDOS, so the >resultant disk *is* readable on DECmates! Of course, this is *not* an >"exact" copy, but rather it is a "better" copy. Apparently Teledisk only >writes sectors in a "sane" format, and the copy-protection they refer to >is the class of "funny" sector ordering, size, or count, not any lower-level >details. Apparently the Sydex code at work in RAINDOS and 22DISK is also >within Teledisk, thus since Teledisk recognizes the disk as a 10-sector/track >512 bytes/sector disk, it writes it as would RAINDOS, etc., except Teledisk >is sensitive to sector ordering unlike the other Sydex programs, etc. > >Thus, the descendent disk is actually *better* than the original. I can now >therefore distribute diskettes in the intended format for working-copy usage >of the best effort of each diskette :-). > >Additionally, if I modify distribution diskettes to be in their intended >format instead of their original stock format (virtually all diskettes that >need to be distributed are in stock RX50 format, because the need to create >optimal diskette layout is generally newer than the software; indeed, this >entire effort is to distribute software that performs *better* than the >original!), then the master disks should be copied with Teledisk to create >perfect copies in one step. > >There are additional advantages: > >Teledisk can also create an MS-DOS file that is the image of the diskette >in either a rudimentary-compressed or advanced-compressed form. These files >can be transmitted down the net and then reconstructed on PC-AT's for use >on RX50 targets. Since they are compressed, this minimizes the overhead >as well, etc. > >So, Teledisk has made my day :-). > >cjl > >From barry(a)chezmoto.ai.mit.edu Wed Aug 5 10:12:06 1992 >From: barry(a)chezmoto.ai.mit.edu (Barry Kort) >Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro >Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC >Date: 4 Aug 92 12:13:30 GMT >Organization: MicroMuse >In-reply-to: lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu's message of 3 Aug 92 05:39:27 GMT > >Charles, > >You can retreive rt11.zip by anonymous ftp from >newton.canterbury.ac.nz, 132.181.40.1, in the pub/local directory. > >Barry > >From lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu Wed Aug 5 10:12:14 1992 >From: lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) >Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro >Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC >Date: 4 Aug 92 18:41:23 GMT >Reply-To: lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) >Organization: Columbia University >Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu > >In article <BARRY.92Aug4081330(a)chezmoto.ai.mit.edu> >arry(a)chezmoto.ai.mit.edu (Barry Kort) writes: > >>Charles, > >>You can retreive rt11.zip by anonymous ftp from >>newton.canterbury.ac.nz, 132.181.40.1, in the pub/local directory. > >>Barry > >Got it. It looks nice. It produces what appears to be a nice RT-11-like >environment on a PC for file transfers, etc., but is inferior to Teledisk >for the purpose of making a compacted image of an entire disk as a DOS >file. Since this is a frill, it can be completely overlooked :-). > >And yes, it does Format DD-type media to stock RX50 as advertised. I will >only take you to task on the minor point: it doesn't require RX50DRVR at all. >There was a little confusion as to whether they were tied together, which is >not the case. > >This program is written in Turbo Pascal. It would seem that someone who >can understand enough TP and the quirky code to call BIOS routines should >incorporate some of RT11.PAS into FDFORMAT (also a TP-based item) since >the format routine works fine while FDFORMAT does not for RX50 as discussed >elsewhere. > >Overall a nice program. > >cjl > > > > > -- entropy -- it's not just a good idea, it's the second law. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA74088 for pups-liszt; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 19:05:40 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Tue Jul 25 15:55:00 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA74084 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 19:05:38 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA38315 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 19:03:48 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from junk.nocrew.org (mail(a)[212.73.17.42]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA73220 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 15:57:27 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from lars(a)junk.nocrew.org) Received: from lars by junk.nocrew.org with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 13GxgC-00055v-00; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 07:55:00 +0200 To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Cc: rblair(a)webteksdesign.com, wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] 2.11 BSD image booting References: <200007250300.UAA22851(a)moe.2bsd.com> From: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Date: 25 Jul 2000 07:55:00 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Steven M. Schultz"'s message of "Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:00:06 -0700 (PDT)" Message-ID: <858zuq21qj.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> writes: > > From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> > > I think all the 2.11BSD disk images in Boot_Images are suspect. > Hmmm, I don't think they're corrupt. I use the 2.11_rp_unknown (Current Patch Level: 400, Date: January 24, 1998) image without any problems. Well, I didn't know the root password, so I had to erase it in single user mode. > Wasn't there a similar posting a month or two ago about someone (I > forget who it was) having "massive corruption". It turned out that > the simulator was only told to use 256kb of memory (18bit mode). Once > the "set cpu 2048k" command was added to the conf file the problems > cleared right up. That was probably me. > Try putting "set cpu 2048k" (I don't _think_ you need both "set cpu > 22b" and "set cpu 2048k" but having both doesn't hurt and may help). This is the script I use: set cpu 22b set cpu 3072K at rp0 2.11_rp_unknown at rl0 x.tar b rp

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