On Mar 7, 7:59, Gregory R. Travis wrote:
> Thought about that too but the math doesn't work. 40+64 chips = 104
> chips * 65536 bits per chip = 6815744 total bits.
>
> 6815744 doesn't divide cleanly by any of 9, 18, 19, 36, or 38
It divides by 13, though (64K x 13 x 8, so the prime factors are 2 and 13).
Unlikely as it sounds, could this be for a 12-bit word machine?
13 is not only 12+1, it's 8+5. 5 is a common number of bits for ECC
(though not, I admit, for 8-bit words! Usually it's 8+3, 16+5, or 16+6).
It also strikes me as odd that a NatSemi board should have TI chips on it.
NatSemi made their own RAM, and Texas made their own PDP-11 and Vax memory
boards.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
Greg,
> Thought about that too but the math doesn't work. 40+64 chips = 104
> chips * 65536 bits per chip = 6815744 total bits.
>
> 6815744 doesn't divide cleanly by any of 9, 18, 19, 36, or 38
Right... 12 bits of ECC seems a bit much. Dunno what that stuff is
about... weird! ;)
Fred
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>From Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> Thu Mar 8 07:15:48 2001
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From: Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu>
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To: greg(a)ciswired.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Spares, et. al for 11/44 system
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> Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 20:07:00 -0500 (EST)
> From: "Gregory R. Travis" <greg(a)ciswired.com>
> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
> Subject: [pups] Spares, et. al for 11/44 system
>
>
> p.s. The Nat. Semi board is a bit strange. It has an area of
> 16x4 TI 64K-bit chips (i.e 64x64k/8 = .5MB) and another
> area of 10x4 TI 64K-bit chips (i.e. .3MB). No matter
> what I do, I can't do the math to get this board to
> fit into a 256/512/1MB size. I ASSUME it's a .5MB
> board, but what about the extra chips?
Nat.Semi. used to make ECC memory boards for the PDP11.
I had one once, it looks like you have one now. My arithmetic says 5
extra bits per 8-bit byte makes for single-error correcting, dual-error
detecting ECC on the byte level. Vaxes do it with 39 bits per 32-bit
word, Alphas do it with 72 bits per 64-bit word. Economy of scale.
As I remember, you could just ignore the ECC and it would work like
a standard parity memory board, except that it very rarely had any
parity errors.
carl
carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego
{decvax|ucbvax} !ucsd!mpl!cdl cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu
clowenstein(a)ucsd.edu
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On Mar 6, 20:07, Gregory R. Travis wrote:
The three RL02s also all accept power and come on. However, they
> all illuminate their fault light when power is applied. I cannot
> remember if RL02s will do this when not connected to their
> controller - anyone?
Yes, that's what happens if either the terminator or the controller is not
connected.
> p.s. The Nat. Semi board is a bit strange. It has an area of
> 16x4 TI 64K-bit chips (i.e 64x64k/8 = .5MB) and another
> area of 10x4 TI 64K-bit chips (i.e. .3MB). No matter
> what I do, I can't do the math to get this board to
> fit into a 256/512/1MB size. I ASSUME it's a .5MB
> board, but what about the extra chips?
Is it ECC memory?
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
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>From "Gregory R. Travis" <greg(a)ciswired.com> Wed Mar 7 22:59:46 2001
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Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 07:59:46 -0500 (EST)
From: "Gregory R. Travis" <greg(a)ciswired.com>
To: "Fred N. van Kempen" <Fred.van.Kempen(a)microwalt.nl>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: RE: [pups] Spares, et. al for 11/44 system
In-Reply-To: <6F63E31101C6D41196490008C7B2BFC32D32(a)mwnt4.microwalt.nl>
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On Wed, 7 Mar 2001, Fred N. van Kempen wrote:
> Hi,
>
> > p.s. The Nat. Semi board is a bit strange. It has an area of
> > 16x4 TI 64K-bit chips (i.e 64x64k/8 = .5MB) and another
> > area of 10x4 TI 64K-bit chips (i.e. .3MB). No matter
> > what I do, I can't do the math to get this board to
> > fit into a 256/512/1MB size. I ASSUME it's a .5MB
> > board, but what about the extra chips?
>
> FastECC or parity, most likely... usually two or three bits per
> word... 256K x 18.
Thought about that too but the math doesn't work. 40+64 chips = 104
chips * 65536 bits per chip = 6815744 total bits.
6815744 doesn't divide cleanly by any of 9, 18, 19, 36, or 38
greg
Gregory Travis
Cornerstone Information Systems ATS
greg(a)ciswired.com
812 330 4361 ext. 18
On Mar 6, 11:46, robin.birch(a)postoffice.co.uk wrote:
>
>
> Dear All,
> I am after some reels of 0.5 inch tape and some spare write protect rings
in the
> UK. Can anyone help?
I may have one or two spare reels, and I certainly have quite a few spare
write rings. How many are you looking for? Does it matter if they're in
Wright-line seals, canisters, or autoload collars? Contact me off-list to
give me your address.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
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>From "Gregory R. Travis" <greg(a)ciswired.com> Wed Mar 7 11:07:00 2001
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Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 20:07:00 -0500 (EST)
From: "Gregory R. Travis" <greg(a)ciswired.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: [pups] Spares, et. al for 11/44 system
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MANY thanks to all who responded to my questions regarding the PDP-11
equipment I recently acquired. I believe that I am well on my way to
being able to build a fairly substantial operating 11/44 museum piece.
I was able to open up the three RA81s and inspect them. Luckily their
heads had all been locked in place. Unfortunately, the belt release on
all were still set in "tension." Hopefully this will be a minor
issue.
I powered up the RA81s, all power up and start spinning the platters. I
have not allowed any of them to rotate fast enough to load the heads though -
I want to do a good cleaning first and get them situated in their
cabinets.
The three RL02s also all accept power and come on. However, they
all illuminate their fault light when power is applied. I cannot
remember if RL02s will do this when not connected to their
controller - anyone?
Finally, I have two 1MB Standard Memories memory boards, a 256K
Standard Memories board, 2 DEC 256K memory boards, 1 DEC 1MB
memory board, and 1 512K National Semiconductor memory board (see below).
All these are 11/44 memories.
Does anyone have CSR/etc. DIP switch settings for the Standard Memories
and/or Nat. Semi boards? I can't find anything on the 'net and I
have no other documentation.
Thanks!
greg
p.s. The Nat. Semi board is a bit strange. It has an area of
16x4 TI 64K-bit chips (i.e 64x64k/8 = .5MB) and another
area of 10x4 TI 64K-bit chips (i.e. .3MB). No matter
what I do, I can't do the math to get this board to
fit into a 256/512/1MB size. I ASSUME it's a .5MB
board, but what about the extra chips?
Gregory Travis
Cornerstone Information Systems ATS
greg(a)ciswired.com
812 330 4361 ext. 18
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Mar 7 11:53:21 2001
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: [pups] Fred's Ultrix-11 now in the UNIX Archive
To: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:53:21 +1100 (EST)
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In article <7263E31101C6D41196490008C7B2BFC30A8A9F(a)mwnt4.microwalt.nl>,
"Fred N. van Kempen" <Fred.van.Kempen(a)MicroWalt.NL> writes:
> Here is a quick snippet I just wrote up while loading my distribution on
> a test system. This file will be cleaned up,
> enriched and so on and included in the next release.
> Fred
The UNIX Archive now has Fred's distributions and his setup.txt in
the PDP-11/Distributions/dec/Fred-Ultrix3 directory:
total 17328
-rw-r--r-- 1 wkt pupsarc 892 Mar 7 01:30 README.ult11-3.0
-rw-r--r-- 1 wkt pupsarc 1663 Mar 6 12:36 README.ult11-3.1
-rw-r--r-- 1 wkt pupsarc 25497 Mar 7 12:53 setup-3.1.txt
-rw-r--r-- 1 wkt pupsarc 6680997 Mar 7 06:33 ult11-3.0-kit.tar.gz
-rw-r--r-- 1 wkt pupsarc 10988112 Mar 7 06:52 ult11-3.1-kit.tar.gz
http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/archive_access.html
Warren
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>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)update.uu.se> Wed Mar 7 18:54:48 2001
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Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 09:54:48 +0100 (CET)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)update.uu.se>
To: "Gregory R. Travis" <greg(a)ciswired.com>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Spares, et. al for 11/44 system
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On Tue, 6 Mar 2001, Gregory R. Travis wrote:
> The three RL02s also all accept power and come on. However, they
> all illuminate their fault light when power is applied. I cannot
> remember if RL02s will do this when not connected to their
> controller - anyone?
Yes, they will turn on the fault light if not connected to a controller.
> p.s. The Nat. Semi board is a bit strange. It has an area of
> 16x4 TI 64K-bit chips (i.e 64x64k/8 = .5MB) and another
> area of 10x4 TI 64K-bit chips (i.e. .3MB). No matter
> what I do, I can't do the math to get this board to
> fit into a 256/512/1MB size. I ASSUME it's a .5MB
> board, but what about the extra chips?
ECC?
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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> 2. Peanut lamps for the RL02s and RA81s. I assume they're the
> same lamp for both drives. These are the lamps that go behind the
> front-panel switches and indicators (e.g. Load/Ready/Write
Protect/etc.)
> I pulled one lamp and it was marked CM73ENG. A search on Goodle
> for this pulls up nothing.
RL02's and RA81's use different bulbs; the #73 is for the RL02, and is
14V. The #86 is for the RA8n, and is 6.30V. You can put the #86 in a
RL02, and while it will be real bright, the lifetime will be measured
in hours. Put the #73 in a RA8n and it will be dim, but at least it'll last
a while :-).
These bulbs are readily available in the US from most "old-line" electronics
distributors. Mail order places that stock them are Newark and Mouser;
the relevant Newark URL's are
http://search.newark.com/part_detail.phtml?PART%5FID=250&VID=250&10005=50N8…
and
http://search.newark.com/part_detail.phtml?PART%5FID=250&VID=250&10005=50N8…
If you're going to be doing this a lot, you ought to find yourself a
bulb puller. Getting those bulbs in and out of recessed sockets is a whole
lot easier with such a tool!
Tim.
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On Mar 5, 11:52, Gregory R. Travis wrote:
> I need sources for the following, can anyone suggest good starting
points?
>
> 1. Unit select plugs for the RL02s. All the plugs I have are "0",
> I'd like to be able to use more than one RL02 on the system if need
be.
I had a similar problem -- several RL02s but the plugs were for units 0 and
1 ("And sometimes we didn't even have ones. I wrote an entire database
using only zeros." "You had zeros? We had to use the letter 'O'.")
The switches are standard Honeywell AML series, so you might be able to get
plugs for them frm a Honeywell supplier -- but don't hold your breath.
Each plug has a finger on each side (and a "key" on top). The upper and
lower edge of each finger activates (or not) a contact in the housing. I
used matchsticks to work out what lengths were required before I saw real
plugs. Of course, I wouldn't recommend using matchsticks except in an
emergency but you could do what I did, and make your own plugs. I made
mine from thin Perspex (Lucite), each from five pieces glued together to
make a box. The "code" is:
Unit upper left lower left upper right lower right
0 short short short long
1 short short long* long
2 long long short long
3 long long long* long
The ones I've marked "long*" go the full length of the finger, with just a
small bevel to make insertion easier.
> 2. Peanut lamps for the RL02s and RA81s. I assume they're the
> same lamp for both drives. These are the lamps that go behind the
> front-panel switches and indicators (e.g. Load/Ready/Write
Protect/etc.)
> I pulled one lamp and it was marked CM73ENG. A search on Goodle
> for this pulls up nothing.
They're standard T1 1/2 wedge-base bulbs (5mm dia x 18mm long), but to be
authentic you should use 14V bulbs rather than the more common 12V ones.
12V ones will burn out relatively quickly.
> 3. New, or good substitutes, for the coarse air filters used
behind
> the 11/44 front panel as well as behind the RA81 front panels. The
> ones that I have are literally crumbling apart.
The best thing I've found is the synthetic open-weave fibrous mat used in
domestic cooker hoods and the like. I get mine from the local hardware
shop; it's very cheap. It comes in at least two thicknesses; if the stuff
you find is too thick, you can peel it apart as if it were layered.
Can't help with the rest, I'm afraid.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
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>From "Fred N. van Kempen" <Fred.van.Kempen(a)microwalt.nl> Tue Mar 6 07:48:34 2001
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From: "Fred N. van Kempen" <Fred.van.Kempen(a)microwalt.nl>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: [pups] DEC ULTRIX-11 V3.1 bin/src install kit
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 22:48:34 +0100
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All,
As a part of my efforts to create an enhanced version of the Ultrix-11 Unix
distribution that can be used on PDP-11's, I started out with creating a kit
that has all the parts and which can be used to create a bootable
installation
tape from which you can install it on a machine.
I am uploading "ultrix11-v3.1-kit.tar.gz" to PUPS as we speak. A README
file
is included, as contains the following:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
DEC ULTRX-11 V3.1 Master Distribution Kit
This directory contains the files needed to build a complete
installation kit of version 3.1 of the ULTRIX-11 Unix system
for the DEC PDP-11. Version 3.1 was also the final release;
no more development was done after, as UEG shifted its focus
to the new VAX systems. Ultrix effectively was ported to the
VAX. and called Ultrix-32. Later releases were called either
Ultrix/VAX or Ultrix/RISC, depending on which DEC platform it
was for.
This distribution contains files from both the V3.1 binary
kit (dug up by Wilko Bulte), the V3.1 source kit from Steven
Schultz, and some other tools and files grabbed from anywhere.
The kit is basically a regeneratable V3.1 binary boot kit,
with the official SRCKIT added to it (as tape file 35). The
top-level "build" script does what it says.. it builds the
tape so you can start it up and go to get some sleep :)
To get the ball rolling, check the value of the TAPE variable
at the top of the "build" script. It is set to what MY tape
device (TK50 on TQK50 controller) under Ultrix-11 V3.1 is,
so you may have to change it.
Then, type
./build
and watch things go. After about two hours of tape activity,
you should be woken up by two BEEPs telling you that it is all
done. Unload the tape and you're all set.
Extreme thanks go to Wilko and Steven for digging up this stuff;
to Bill Gunshannon, Ed "The Wanderer", Kees Stravers and Warren
Toomey for their support while I was fighting hardware problems
and debug weird software issues. Thanks guys!!
If you run into problems, drop me a note!
Have fun !
Fred N. van Kempen, <fred(a)microwalt.nl>
March 5th, 2001
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
Upcoming release of this kit will contain, amongst other things:
- VTserver 2.0 support (you can install the tape off a virtual tape
server!!)
- TDF 1.0 (Tape Dump Format) file support for archiving tape dumps
- My TCP/IP "fromto" network pipe program
- C-Kermit, compress/uncompress
- more documentation
- more network stuff
- my RX50 boot/rescue diskette set (2 RX50's.. neat!)
Watch this space for more....
Warren: expect about 38MB of stuff to drop into your mailbox tonight...
Cheers,
Fred
--
Fred N. van Kempen Fred.van.Kempen(a)MicroWalt.NL
Microsoft MCSE+I/MCSE/MCSD Compaq ASE/ACT
UNIX Systems Programmer Cisco ACRC/CCDA/CCNA/SupportPro
InterNetworking en Network Security Consultant
MicroWalt Corporation (Netherlands), Korte Heul 95, 1403 ND BUSSUM
Phone +31 (35) 6980059 FAX +31 (35) 6980215 http://WWW.MicroWalt.NL/
Dit bericht en eventuele bijlagen is uitsluitend bestemd voor de
geadresseerde. Openbaarmaking, vermenigvuldiging, verspreiding aan
derden is niet toegestaan. Er wordt geen verantwoordelijkheid
genomen voor de juiste en volledige overbrenging van de inhoud van
dit bericht, noch voor de tijdige ontvangst ervan.
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I don't know everyone's perspective on this issue, and it would be good to hear
some alternate viewpoints. Basically, I am against people giving classic
computers in working condition to museums. Instead, I believe that they should
donate or sell their machines to enthusiasts who will play with them and learn
things.
A while back, I ran across a person that had some hardware I wanted. He was
torn between selling it to me and giving it to a museum. I didn't have a lot
of money available to give him, and donation to a museum (a nonprofit) would
get him an impressive tax deduction. I did some research about what it takes
to start a nonprofit organization, but it looked too expensive (lawyers) and
time-consuming to be a viable option for me. I sent the following argument to
him:
> While I would love to establish a collection of these machines,
> I'm definitely not a 'collector' as the term has come to mean
> today; I'm not in it to get something rare, to make money, or
> to have some pretty decorations in my house. While it would
> certainly be nice to have a pretty system, my priority is to
> get something that I can learn with. I want to *run* these
> machines. I want to *explore* these machines. I want to *hack*
> on these machines, to see what unexpected things they can be
> coerced into doing. I want to get as close as I can to the
> *experience* of computing in these machines' era. If these
> machines go to a museum, they're just pretty art, and they will
> educate _no_one_. They will sit behind glass walls, no one
> ever will touch them again, and no one will ever turn them on or
> keep them in working order. They are effectively lost. That's
> little better then scrapping them, and you _KNOW_ how you feel
> about that!
What do you think about this?
(BTW, if anyone wants to use the quoted paragraph, they are free to)
--
Jeffrey S. Sharp
jss(a)ou.edu
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Hello there! I just subscribed to the list, so I thought a message of
introduction would be in order. That, and I've got about 1.3 sagans of
questions to ask :).
First, here is a little about myself and why I'm here. I'm 22 years old. I go
to school at the University of Oklahoma, majoring in CS, and work as an
embedded programmer. My religion, if one exists, consists of the many tenets
and folkloric tales of programming.
So here I am, 22; what am I doing asking about PDP-11s and their Unices? Well,
I'm hyperinterested in the history of computing, especially that history that
constitues the minicomputer era. I guess I arrived at this state by the
following path:
Birth -> TRS80 -> MSDOS/Windows -> Unix -> Folklore -> Obsession
The obsession state has grown to the point that I *must* obtain a PDP-11 and
learn everything I can about it, lest all the remaining ones be usurped by
museums, to forever lie derelict behind glass walls where no one can ever play
with them, gain knowledge from them, or truly appreciate them again. I don't
want to build an enormous collection -- just one or two that I can keep in
working order. My purpose is intellectual exploration. I have to *experience*
what computing was like in my favorite era, and this is the only way, since
unfortunately, I was not born 30 years earlier.
Finding PDP-11 hardware, while somewhat difficult, is not the prime problem.
*What* hardware do I find? I can find out via the Internet the basics of what
hardware exists, but the information stops rather short of being complete. I
need the following questions answered:
* A kind person has offered to sell me an 11/70 (my first choice) system with a
TE16 and TM03. What does the tape drive look like?
* The TM03 is described as a 'formatter'. Does 'format' in this case
mean 'prepare the tape for use' like a low-level PC hard drive format, or is it
some other meaning? What does the TM03 look like?
* 'Setting up Unix - Sixth Edition' says that you can install from a TU10 or
TU16. Does this mean that the TE16 would be out of the question? How is a
TE16 different from a TU16?
* I want to run V6 on 3 to 4 RK05s. How many can be put into a system? I need
a RK11-D controller for this, right?
* Can V7 fit on 3 to 4 RK05s?
* What range of PDP-11 BSD versions will fit comfortably on 3 to 4 RK05s?
* Look at the middle rack in the following picture. Are those RK05f drives?
http://www.telnet.hu/hamster/pdp-11/kepek/pdp11-70.jpg
* From what I can tell, 2.11BSD needs a bit more disk space than RK05s can
offer. Are there any drives that are big enough but still adhere to the older
black color scheme? (Superficial, I know, but I want my system to be pretty.
I don't know how well a white RA81 would fit in with everything else... :)
* What kind of controller would one of the above drives need?
* The 11/70 system in question had its front panel replaced with a Datasystem
570 panel at some point. How hard would it be to find an original 11/70 front
panel to put back on it?
Whew! I think that's all for the moment. All responses are appreciated.
--
Jeffrey S. Sharp
jss(a)ou.edu
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>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)update.uu.se> Sat Mar 3 21:00:58 2001
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From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)update.uu.se>
To: "Jeffrey S. Sharp" <jss(a)ou.edu>
cc: PUPS Mailing List <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: [pups] Introducing myself (long)
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On Fri, 2 Mar 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote:
> Hello there! I just subscribed to the list, so I thought a message of
> introduction would be in order. That, and I've got about 1.3 sagans of
> questions to ask :).
Nice to hear from ya. Ask as much as you feel like. I might also point out
the info-pdp11 list, which harbours all kind of pdp-11 fanatics, not just
the unix types. :-)
> * A kind person has offered to sell me an 11/70 (my first
> choice) system with a TE16 and TM03. What does the tape drive look like?
First of all 11/70s are nice machines. But expect to use a soldering iron
once in a while, and try to get some spare cards. Also, I hope you have a
large house, and *lots* of electricity...
The TE16 is an upright standing drive with vaccum colons. It's a normal
full height 19" cabinet.
> * The TM03 is described as a 'formatter'. Does 'format' in this case
> mean 'prepare the tape for use' like a low-level PC hard drive format, or is it
> some other meaning? What does the TM03 look like?
The TM03 is a formatter in the sense that it interfaces to the massbus on
one side, and to a pertec "unformatted" interface on the other side.
It's a "small" box that resides in the lower part of the TE16 cabinet. You
normally won't ever look at it, except when it breakes.
> * 'Setting up Unix - Sixth Edition' says that you can install from a TU10 or
> TU16. Does this mean that the TE16 would be out of the question? How is a
> TE16 different from a TU16?
They don't differ.
> * I want to run V6 on 3 to 4 RK05s. How many can be put into a system? I need
> a RK11-D controller for this, right?
I think each RK11-D can control up to eight drives.
> * From what I can tell, 2.11BSD needs a bit more disk space than RK05s can
> offer. Are there any drives that are big enough but still adhere to the older
> black color scheme? (Superficial, I know, but I want my system to be pretty.
> I don't know how well a white RA81 would fit in with everything else... :)
If you want the "look", you should go with RP06 drives.
They fit 2.11, they are supported, and they are "pretty".
However, they *do* require 3-phase power, they stand on their own at the
floor, and they are *heavy*.
In exact numbers, an RP06 holds 176MB.
All "newer" drives are the off-white that DEC adopted.
> * What kind of controller would one of the above drives need?
RA81: UDA-50
RP06: Massbus (RH70 in your case)
> * The 11/70 system in question had its front panel replaced with a Datasystem
> 570 panel at some point. How hard would it be to find an original 11/70 front
> panel to put back on it?
Could be tricky...
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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>From "Jeffrey S. Sharp" <jss(a)ou.edu> Sun Mar 4 03:06:16 2001
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Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 11:06:16 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jeffrey S. Sharp" <jss(a)ou.edu>
Subject: Re: [pups] Introducing myself (long)
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> > Hello there!
>
> Nice to hear from ya. Ask as much as you feel like. I might also
> point out the info-pdp11 list, which harbours all kind of pdp-11
> fanatics, not just the unix types. :-)
Thanks for that.
> > * A kind person has offered to sell me an 11/70
>
> First of all 11/70s are nice machines. But expect to use a
> soldering iron once in a while, and try to get some spare cards.
> Also, I hope you have a large house, and *lots* of electricity..
I'm not afraid of a little soldering. My current plan to ready my house for
the machine is as follows. First, I have a wood floor that's suspended above
the ground by various things in the crawlspace. I'll have to get down there
and add some extra bracing where the machine will be. I'll lay a solid slab of
strong wood on top of the floor to spread the weight out. Second, I'll have an
electrician install the necessary power circuit. My ballpark figures tell me
that I need capacity for 8-10kW.
My house is small, but big enough for the 11/70. In a year or so I will be
building a new house, complete with its own machine room.
> The TM03 is a formatter in the sense that it interfaces to the
> massbus on one side, and to a pertec "unformatted" interface on
> the other side.
I figured it might me something like that.
> If you want the "look", you should go with RP06 drives. They fit
> 2.11, they are supported, and they are "pretty". However, they
> *do* require 3-phase power, they stand on their own at the floor,
> and they are *heavy*. In exact numbers, an RP06 holds 176MB.
Ah, a washing machine. I don't have room for it now (well, not where the
machine will be), but I will in the new house. I've found a person that might
sell me a RA81 to use until then.
> > * The 11/70 system in question had its front panel replaced
> > with a Datasystem 570 panel at some point. How hard would it
> > be to find an original 11/70 front panel to put back on it?
>
> Could be tricky...
Hm. I'd better start looking now.
Thanks for your response. You have been extremely helpful.
--
Jeffrey S. Sharp
jss(a)ou.edu
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>From "Lars J. Buitinck" <lars(a)fwn.rug.nl> Sun Mar 4 03:22:10 2001
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Subject: Re: [pups] Introducing myself (long)
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This seems like the perfect opportunity to introduce myself : )
Thank you Jeffrey.
Lars Buitinck, 17 years old, student (high school, final year), UNIX
fanatic, living in the Netherlands, looking for a reasonable PDP-11
(ie., one that can run 2.11BSD). MrBill (the owner of pdp11.org) knew
where I could find an 11/73 and an 11/83 but both had to be shipped all
the way from the US, both only had one RL02 disk drive, and only one had
a tape drive.
So does anybody know where I can find a reasonably modern, moderately
sized 11, preferably from NL, DE or BE, with some reasonably large disks
(some 50-60 MB minimum, I guess)? A tape drive would be nice... unless I
can borrow one? I don't really care about the colour, as long as it
works ; )
PS.: FYI, I speak English (obviously) and Dutch (again, obviously), and
I understand French and German well enough, but please don't expect me
to mail in French or German.
"Jeffrey S. Sharp" wrote:
>
> Hello there! I just subscribed to the list, so I thought a message of
> introduction would be in order. That, and I've got about 1.3 sagans of
> questions to ask :).
...
> The obsession state has grown to the point that I *must* obtain a PDP-11
Man, do I know that feeling
> unfortunately, I was not born 30 years earlier.
If you think you had bad luck, I was born 35 years too late. ; )
--
If I traveled to the end of the rainbow
As Dame Fortune did intend,
Murphy would be there to tell me
The pot's at the other end.
-- Bert Whitney
Lars J. Buitinck
Dear All,
I now have one of these but the tape hub locking mechanism is acting up. Has
anyone got a set of the maintenance docs for a TS05 that they can scan for me?
Regards
Robin
On 26 Feb, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> I suspect that one of the switches enables the line frequency clock.
> With out a clock running things will work (at least minimally) as
> long as there are some interrupts happening.
Hmm? Why will it run with_out_ a clock?
>> OK. The machine is currently un-tar-ing /usr... :-)))
>
> Fantastic!
The next adventure is un-tar-ing the source and build my own kernel...
--
tschüß,
Jochen
Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/
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>From John Holden <johnh(a)psych.usyd.edu.au> Wed Feb 28 13:24:22 2001
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Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 14:24:22 +1100 (EST)
From: John Holden <johnh(a)psych.usyd.edu.au>
Message-Id: <200102280324.OAA16488(a)psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: RE: [pups] Swap device in V6?
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> The good news is, this fixed my ps problem - ps now works. The bad news
> is that cc still fails with the following error:
>
> fFatal error in /lib/c0
>
> The lowercase f appears, followed shortly by the rest of the line. I've
> tried the -c option to suppress linking, and still get this error. I
> don't get this error on the Supnik emulator.
'/lib/c0' is the first pass of the C compiler, after the preprocessor
has be run (the order is cc, c0, c1, c2 for the optimiser, and then 'as'
to produce the object file). I dimly recall that the various passes forked
by 'cc' didn't bother to catch signals, so any error just gives the
"Fatal error in ..." message. The '-c' would have no effect this early.
You could try the '-f' option, that uses a different compiler (with FP
emulation).
Assuming that you don't have a corrupted binary, or faulty processor/memory,
then is one obscure possibility. While a user program will not see any
difference between a 11/34 and 11/40 (except for floating point instructions),
the behaviour after a memory management fault IS different. The non ID space
processors (11/23/34/35/40/60) don't have a register to record the changes
in the general cpu registers after a fault, and it has to be calculated in
software. The 34 and 40 leave the registers in different states after a fault.
The classic example is "cmp -(sp), -(sp)" to extend the stack. This may generate
a fault because the stack needs to grow dynamically. The kernel extends the
stack (where automatic variables are allocated), and then attempts to
reexecute the instruction. In the case of a 34 using a standard m40.s,
it sometimes gets it wrong, and is very program and data dependent.
Does this ring any bells with people having ported unix to 11/34's?
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Feb 28 13:54:49 2001
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Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?
In-Reply-To: <200102280324.OAA16488(a)psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au> from John Holden
at "Feb 28, 2001 02:24:22 pm"
To: John Holden <johnh(a)psych.usyd.edu.au>
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In article by John Holden:
> > The good news is, this fixed my ps problem - ps now works. The bad news
> > is that cc still fails with the following error:
> > fFatal error in /lib/c0
>
> Assuming that you don't have a corrupted binary, or faulty processor/memory,
> then is one obscure possibility. While a user program will not see any
> difference between a 11/34 and 11/40 (except for floating point instructions),
> the behaviour after a memory management fault IS different. The non ID space
> processors (11/23/34/35/40/60) don't have a register to record the changes
> in the general cpu registers after a fault, and it has to be calculated in
> software. The 34 and 40 leave the registers in different states after a fault.
>
>The classic example is "cmp -(sp), -(sp)" to extend the stack.This may generate
> a fault because the stack needs to grow dynamically. The kernel extends the
> stack (where automatic variables are allocated), and then attempts to
> reexecute the instruction. In the case of a 34 using a standard m40.s,
> it sometimes gets it wrong, and is very program and data dependent.
>
> Does this ring any bells with people having ported unix to 11/34's?
That comment made me go through and scan my old AUUGNs for some articles
written by Dave Horsfall [who is on this mailing list]. I found his
article on porting V6 to the 11/23, but not for a port to the 11/34.
However, at least two tar files in the UNIX Archive have an m34.s in them:
Applications/Shoppa_Tapes/usenix_80_delaware.gz:
delaware/maryland/os40/m34.s
Applications/Shoppa_Tapes/usenix_80_delaware.gz:m34.s:
toronto/case/sys/conf/m34.s
The first appears to be modifications to V6, I haven't checked the latter
yet. It may be something worth pursuing.
Warren
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>From Dave Horsfall <dave(a)horsfall.org> Wed Feb 28 13:53:22 2001
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From: Dave Horsfall <dave(a)horsfall.org>
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To: John Holden <johnh(a)psych.usyd.edu.au>
cc: <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: RE: [pups] Swap device in V6?
In-Reply-To: <200102280324.OAA16488(a)psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au>
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On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, John Holden wrote:
> The classic example is "cmp -(sp), -(sp)" to extend the stack. This may generate
[...]
> Does this ring any bells with people having ported unix to 11/34's?
I have actual code on how we handled this in those days; who wants it?
--
Dave Horsfall CL VK2KFU dave(a)geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: * 9978-7490
Geac Computers P/L (ERP Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Feb 28 14:00:30 2001
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.32.0102281452230.2716-100000(a)fgh.au.geac.com> from Dave
Horsfall at "Feb 28, 2001 02:53:22 pm"
To: Dave Horsfall <dave(a)horsfall.org>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:00:30 +1100 (EST)
CC: John Holden <johnh(a)psych.usyd.edu.au>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
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In article by Dave Horsfall:
> On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, John Holden wrote:
> > The classic example is "cmp -(sp), -(sp)" to extend the stack. This may generate
> [...]
> > Does this ring any bells with people having ported unix to 11/34's?
> I have actual code on how we handled this in those days; who wants it?
Mail it to me and I'll drop it in the archive somewhere.
Thanks Dave!
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Feb 28 14:15:34 2001
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <200102280415.f1S4FYA00697(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: [pups] V6 or V6 patches for 11/34
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.32.0102281500120.2716-400000(a)fgh.au.geac.com> from Dave
Horsfall at "Feb 28, 2001 03:02:28 pm"
To: Dave Horsfall <dave(a)horsfall.org>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:15:34 +1100 (EST)
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In article by Dave Horsfall:
> On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, Warren Toomey wrote:
> > Mail it to me and I'll drop it in the archive somewhere.
> As attached... I see it actually came from ChemEng. It's for the 11/60,
> but has the 11/34 stuff in there as well.
>
> PS: I'm sure I did a port to the 11/34 :-)
I have moved the 11/34 patches into the UNIX Archive at
PDP-11/Bug_Fixes/V7_on11-34
They look like V7 patches though, so they may not be readily
usable on a V6 system. Those other files I mentioned may be
better. Your mileage may vary :-)
Dave, did you write an AUUGN paper for an 11/34 port, and what year
so I can go back and have another look.
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>From John Holden <johnh(a)psych.usyd.edu.au> Wed Feb 28 14:15:46 2001
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Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:15:46 +1100 (EST)
From: John Holden <johnh(a)psych.usyd.edu.au>
Message-Id: <200102280415.PAA17381(a)psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] 2.11BSD boot hangs.
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>John Holden wrote:
>> You can run into problems with the BHALT line, which can be asserted by a line
>> break on the console line (if enabled), or on some DHV serial card emulations.
>> Turning off a terminal may be enough to halt the process if it generates a
>> serial break as the power goes down.
>
>On my /53+ running 2.11, it's enough to kick in ODT.. Very anoying, really.
>Is there any way to disable this functionality, save rewiring the backplane?
You can usually disable the HALT on break feature. When the console is on
a separate serial card :-
DEC DLV11-E or F Remove jumper on wire-wrap pin H
DEC DLV11-J wire-wrap pins X-B enables boot on break
wire-wrap pins X-H enable halt (ODT) on break
nothing on X disables both
Webster WQDHV switch 4 at J9 OFF to ignore break.
For processor cards with serial ports, I only have a manual for 11/23+. DEC
is pretty consistent, so there should be options on 11/53 and latter 11/73's.
11/23+ KDF11-B? Remove jumper from J5-J4 and connect J3-J4
The jumpers aren't marked on the PCB, so looking
at the board with the Qbus fingers at the bottom,
handles at the top, there is a vertical row of
three jumpers on the right hand side of the board.
towards the bottom. Top to bottom is J5, J4 and J3.
If anybody has manuals for 11/53+ and the quad slot 11/73's and can send me
the details, I'll collate the information, and add it to my web page at :-
http://www.psych.usyd.edu.au/pdp-11/
The 11/53+ I have does have lots of jumpers, but no numbers or letters beside
them.
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>From Dave Horsfall <dave(a)horsfall.org> Wed Feb 28 15:59:41 2001
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Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 16:59:41 +1100 (EST)
From: Dave Horsfall <dave(a)horsfall.org>
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Subject: [pups] Re: V6 or V6 patches for 11/34
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On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, Warren Toomey wrote:
> Dave, did you write an AUUGN paper for an 11/34 port, and what year
> so I can go back and have another look.
Vol 1 No 6. "Implementing UNIX on a PDP-11/34" (sub-titled: "What does
the `F' in "RK05-F" really stand for ?").
I still have the nroff source available... It's about 1983-ish.
--
Dave Horsfall CL VK2KFU dave(a)geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: * 9978-7490
Geac Computers P/L (ERP Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia
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On 27 Feb, John Holden wrote:
> On BA-23 boxes, there is a small, two lever DIP switch. [...]
Thanks for the enlightening.
As we are on the topic cabinets: Can a 11/73 run in a BA21x or BA440
cabinet?
> You can run into problems with the BHALT line, which can be asserted by a line
> break on the console line [...]
That is the reason why I disconnect console terminals bevore I power
them off (if there is no break disable switch on the machine). :-)
--
tschüß,
Jochen
Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/
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"Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> writes:
> > BTW: What serial parameters does 2.11BSD use? The first time I booted
> > UNIX I got garbage after "user mem = 307200". I seted the vt220 to 7e1
> > and this worked, but is it correct?
>
> Yes, 7e1 is correct - a legacy setting from eons ago.
This bothered me enough, a handful years ago, to change things a bit:
For getty/main.c:
*** main.c.ORIG Thu Dec 29 17:22:13 1994
--- main.c Thu Dec 29 17:21:28 1994
***************
*** 383,391 ****
--- 383,393 ----
char c;
c = cc;
+ #ifdef notdef /* hack to get rid of parity in getty */
c |= partab[c&0177] & 0200;
if (OP)
c ^= 0200;
+ #endif /* parity hack */
if (!UB) {
outbuf[obufcnt++] = c;
if (obufcnt >= OBUFSIZ)
For pdp/cons.c:
*** cons.c.ORIG Sun May 11 11:21:01 1997
--- cons.c Sun May 11 11:26:05 1997
***************
*** 62,68 ****
if ((tp->t_state&TS_ISOPEN) == 0) {
ttychars(tp);
tp->t_state = TS_ISOPEN|TS_CARR_ON;
! tp->t_flags = EVENP|ECHO|XTABS|CRMOD;
}
if (tp->t_state&TS_XCLUDE && u.u_uid != 0)
return (EBUSY);
--- 62,68 ----
if ((tp->t_state&TS_ISOPEN) == 0) {
ttychars(tp);
tp->t_state = TS_ISOPEN|TS_CARR_ON;
! tp->t_flags = ANYP|ECHO|XTABS|CRMOD;
}
if (tp->t_state&TS_XCLUDE && u.u_uid != 0)
return (EBUSY);
For sys/tty.c:
*** tty.c.ORIG Sun May 11 11:21:40 1997
--- tty.c Sun May 11 11:27:40 1997
***************
*** 48,53 ****
--- 48,54 ----
*/
char partab[] = {
+ #ifdef notdef /* even parity setup */
0001,0201,0201,0001,0201,0001,0001,0201,
0202,0004,0003,0201,0005,0206,0201,0001,
0201,0001,0001,0201,0001,0201,0201,0001,
***************
*** 64,69 ****
--- 65,88 ----
0200,0000,0000,0200,0000,0200,0200,0000,
0200,0000,0000,0200,0000,0200,0200,0000,
0000,0200,0200,0000,0200,0000,0000,0201,
+ #else /* no parity setup follows */
+ 0001,0001,0001,0001,0001,0001,0001,0001,
+ 0002,0004,0003,0001,0005,0006,0001,0001,
+ 0001,0001,0001,0001,0001,0001,0001,0001,
+ 0001,0001,0001,0001,0001,0001,0001,0001,
+ 0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,
+ 0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,
+ 0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,
+ 0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,
+ 0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,
+ 0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,
+ 0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,
+ 0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,
+ 0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,
+ 0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,
+ 0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,
+ 0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0001,
+ #endif /* end of parity selection stuff */
/*
* 7 bit ascii ends with the last character above,
Hmm. It's been a while. I should fire up the old /83 and get all the
latest patches from Steven applied, while it's still winter, and I can
run it and the VAX without overheating my machine room. :-)
-tih
--
Popularity is the hallmark of mediocrity. --Niles Crane, "Frasier"
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>From "Fred N. van Kempen" <Fred.van.Kempen(a)microwalt.nl> Wed Feb 28 06:01:50 2001
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From: "Fred N. van Kempen" <Fred.van.Kempen(a)microwalt.nl>
To: "PUPS Mailing List (E-mail)" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: [pups] DEC Ultrix-11 V3.1
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 21:01:50 +0100
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All,
Just a note to let you know that I am making good progress on
getting my modified Ultrix-11 V3.1 up and running. I'll be
uploading disk images of various MicroPDP-11 (/23, /53, /73,
/83) based systems for you to enjoy :)
Most of all, I should be able to run TK50 install tapes again as
of next week, given my working 11/83 with TK50.
Many thanks go to Bill Gunshannon for the initial image (I could
not get my boot tapes to work), Warren Toomey for letting me play
lots with VTserver and integrating it into Ultrix, Kees Stravers
for giving me the hardware I needed, and, of course, to The
Wanderer for figuring out my hardware problemns with me :)
Cheers,
Fred
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>From "Fred N. van Kempen" <Fred.van.Kempen(a)microwalt.nl> Wed Feb 28 06:26:56 2001
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From: "Fred N. van Kempen" <Fred.van.Kempen(a)microwalt.nl>
To: "'PUPS Mailing List (E-mail)'" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: [pups] DEC Ultrix-11 V3.1 part II
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 21:26:56 +0100
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All,
> Many thanks go to ...
Blah! And of course to Wilko Bulte, who provided the dumps of the
original V3.1 tapes, and with whom I spent quite some time debugging
the why-doesn-this-work problems with the initial tape dump files...
Fred (compiling stuff on the PDP so he can transfer stuff in and out
of the box without having to use the slow VTserver link ;-)
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I believe the practice John Holden describes from Mini-UNIX (only one
process in memory at a time, hence a context switch is the same as a
swap) was also part of the very earliest UNIXes, on the PDP-7 and the
11/20, neither of which had hardware memory management. Dennis Ritchie's
`Evolution of the UNIX Time-Sharing System' paper (in the October 1984
Bell Labs Technical Journal, the second issue to be devoted entirely to
UNIX), tells how it worked in some detail. It wouldn't surprise me if
the swap-to-fork mechanism lived on for a while even after the system
learned about memory management, but I don't actually know that. (Warren:
wbat does the old system you have do?)
Anyone who wants to verify what John describes for V6 can look in (among
other places) the Lions book; newproc is at line 1826, at the beginning
of slp.c.
Norman Wilson
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue Feb 27 10:15:44 2001
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: Re: [pups] Forks under V6
In-Reply-To: <200102262353.KAA55588(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> from Norman Wilson
at "Feb 26, 2001 06:49:13 pm"
To: Norman Wilson <norman(a)nose.cs.utoronto.ca>
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 11:15:44 +1100 (EST)
CC: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
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In article by Norman Wilson:
> I believe the practice John Holden describes from Mini-UNIX (only one
> process in memory at a time, hence a context switch is the same as a
> swap) was also part of the very earliest UNIXes, on the PDP-7 and the
> 11/20, neither of which had hardware memory management. Dennis Ritchie's
> `Evolution of the UNIX Time-Sharing System' paper (in the October 1984
> Bell Labs Technical Journal, the second issue to be devoted entirely to
> UNIX), tells how it worked in some detail. It wouldn't surprise me if
> the swap-to-fork mechanism lived on for a while even after the system
> learned about memory management, but I don't actually know that. (Warren:
> wbat does the old system you have do?)
> Norman Wilson
For the versions on the 11/20 [that's V1, V2 and V3], as there was no
memory protection, there was only 1 process in core at any time. Thus,
the parent was definitely swapped out.
The Nsys kernel (just before V4) also swaps the parent out:
newproc()
{
/*
* make proc entry for new proc
*/
/*
* swap out old process
* to make image of new proc
*/
}
(http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/UnixTree/Nsys/sys/nsys/ken/slp.c.html)
We don't have kernel source for V4 :-(. It looks like V5 also swaps
the parent out:
http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/UnixTree/V5/usr/sys/ken/slp.c.html
By V6, the parent could stay in core if there was enough room:
newproc()
{
/*
* If there is not enough core for the
* new process, swap out the current process to generate the
* copy.
*/
if(a2 == NULL) {
savu(u.u_ssav);
xswap(rpp, 0, 0);
} else {
/*
* There is core, so just copy.
*/
rpp->p_addr = a2;
while(n--) copyseg(a1++, a2++);
}
u.u_procp = rip;
return(0);
}
(http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/UnixTree/V6/usr/sys/ken/slp.c.html)
I've omitted some lines of code here and there.
Warren
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>From John Holden <johnh(a)psych.usyd.edu.au> Tue Feb 27 13:02:55 2001
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Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 14:02:55 +1100 (EST)
From: John Holden <johnh(a)psych.usyd.edu.au>
Message-Id: <200102270302.OAA31721(a)psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] 2.11BSD boot hangs.
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
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On BA-23 boxes, there is a small, two lever DIP switch. Switch 1 in the
ON position (down) enables BEVENT on the Qbus. Without it enabled, there
will no line time clock interrupts generated, even if the LTC register at
777546 in enabled.
The second switch enables the 'restart' button when ON. Pressing 'restart'
starts a powerup sequence, running diagnostics and starting ODT or the
bootstrap (equivalent to cycling the power).
On the earlier BA-11 series boxes for the LSI-11 (and /23), there was an
equivalent switch on the front panel labeled "Aux". It could be used either to
enable the BEVENT or the remote switch for the cabinet power controller. The
11/23plus, 11/53/73 have programable LTC registers, so the switch is normally
left on. On the LSI-11,/2 and early 11/23, you would initially boot the machine
with it off, then enable it.
As for machines hanging without the LTC running, the problem is that the
scheduler (sched) never gets to run, since it sleeps waiting for the 'lbolt'
flag that is only ever set in the clock interrupt service routine. The timeout
queue also doesn't run, so only the internal 'init' process will ever get to run
PS
You can run into problems with the BHALT line, which can be asserted by a line
break on the console line (if enabled), or on some DHV serial card emulations.
Turning off a terminal may be enough to halt the process if it generates a
serial break as the power goes down.
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>From Jay Jaeger <cube1(a)home.com> Tue Feb 27 13:50:59 2001
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Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 21:50:59 -0600
To: pups-digest(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
From: Jay Jaeger <cube1(a)home.com>
Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?
Cc: kwellsch(a)tampabay.rr.com, johnh(a)psych.usyd.edu.au
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In case someone didn't put 2+2 together... The V6 distribution has various
unix kernels. I don't recall for sure which kernel is linked to /unix, but
for sure it is only one of them.
So, if /rpunix is linked to /unix, and you boot rkunix, and then do a ps,
it will search /unix for the symbol for swapdev, look for the RP device in
/dev, and not find one. no swap dev.
The cure is, of course, quite simple:
# chdir /
# ln rkunix unix
And ps will now work fine.
[ Ian might have gotten this directly had he not hidden his real e-mail
address... ;-) ]
Jay Jaeger
At 09:32 AM 2/27/01 +1100, you wrote:
>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 23:49:22 -0800
>From: "Ian King" <iking(a)killthewabbit.org>
>Subject: [pups] Swap device in V6?
>
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
>- ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C09F85.94050E80
>Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>I'm working with the install image provided by Ken Wellsch, and when I =
>execute the 'ps' command I get an error that says "no swap device". I'm =
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 10:27:12 -0800
>From: Ian King <iking(a)microsoft.com>
>Subject: RE: [pups] Swap device in V6?
>
>I, too, have /dev/rk0 mknod'ed as 0,0. Relaetd to this, ps does something
>odd (at least to my experience) with the open() system call - it calls 'open
>("/dev")', without a second argument for mode; that seems like a no-no in C,
>
>- -----Original Message-----
>From: Ken Wellsch [mailto:kwellsch@tampabay.rr.com]
>Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 9:52 AM
>To: Roger Ivie
>Cc: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
>Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?
>
>The "ps" command source appears to be poking around /dev looking for a
>block device that matches the kernel value for swapdev (or something like
>that) and confirming it is a block device.
>
>Yet I see I have /dev/rk0 mknod'ed 0/0 and it is a block device but "ps"
>still gripes about "no swap device."
>
>So I'm missing something I guess.
>
>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 08:44:23 +1100 (EST)
>From: John Holden <johnh(a)psych.usyd.edu.au>
>Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?
>
<< snip >>
>The 'ps' command looks up the symbol table of the unix kernel, and gets
>the device entry for swap (_swapdev), and the process table (_proc)
>It would open /dev as file, and read the directory entries to find a matching
>device entry, so it then had the name of a device to open (you cannot open
>a device based only in the major and minor device entries from a user
>process).
>It also uses /dev to decode tty entries into names.
>
>For 'ps' to work correctly, /unix had to be linked to the real kernel, say
>rkunix.
---
Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection
cube1(a)home.com visit http://members.home.net/thecomputercollection
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>From Martijn van Buul <pino(a)dohd.org> Tue Feb 27 21:03:54 2001
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From: Martijn van Buul <pino(a)dohd.org>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] 2.11BSD boot hangs.
Message-ID: <20010227120354.A9872(a)mud.stack.nl>
Reply-To: Martijn van Buul <pino(a)dohd.org>
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John Holden wrote:
> You can run into problems with the BHALT line, which can be asserted by a line
> break on the console line (if enabled), or on some DHV serial card emulations.
> Turning off a terminal may be enough to halt the process if it generates a
> serial break as the power goes down.
On my /53+ running 2.11, it's enough to kick in ODT.. Very anoying, really.
Is there any way to disable this functionality, save rewiring the backplane?
--
Martijn van Buul - Pino(a)dohd.org - http://www.stack.nl/~martijnb/
Geek code: G-- - Visit OuterSpace: mud.stack.nl 3333
Kees J. Bot: The sum of CPU power and user brain power is a constant.
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>From "Ian King" <iking(a)microsoft.com> Wed Feb 28 02:56:06 2001
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From: "Ian King" <iking(a)microsoft.com>
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The good news is, this fixed my ps problem - ps now works. The bad news
is that cc still fails with the following error:
fFatal error in /lib/c0
The lowercase f appears, followed shortly by the rest of the line. I've
tried the -c option to suppress linking, and still get this error. I
don't get this error on the Supnik emulator.
Obviously, one way to do things would be to rebuild the kernel on the
emulator, and transfer it to the PDP-11. But that seems like cheating.
:-) Besides, the Supnik emulator is just too freeform; my 11/34a
doesn't have a half-dozen instructions the emulator implements. I've
tried the DBit E11 emulator (since it gives more control over processor
features), but I can't get it to boot these images. -- Ian
-----Original Message-----
From: Jay Jaeger [mailto:cube1@home.com]
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 7:51 PM
To: pups-digest(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Cc: kwellsch(a)tampabay.rr.com; johnh(a)psych.usyd.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?
In case someone didn't put 2+2 together... The V6 distribution has
various
unix kernels. I don't recall for sure which kernel is linked to /unix,
but
for sure it is only one of them.
So, if /rpunix is linked to /unix, and you boot rkunix, and then do a
ps,
it will search /unix for the symbol for swapdev, look for the RP device
in
/dev, and not find one. no swap dev.
The cure is, of course, quite simple:
# chdir /
# ln rkunix unix
And ps will now work fine.
[ Ian might have gotten this directly had he not hidden his real e-mail
address... ;-) ]
Jay Jaeger
At 09:32 AM 2/27/01 +1100, you wrote:
>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 23:49:22 -0800
>From: "Ian King" <iking(a)killthewabbit.org>
>Subject: [pups] Swap device in V6?
>
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
>- ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C09F85.94050E80
>Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>I'm working with the install image provided by Ken Wellsch, and when I
=
>execute the 'ps' command I get an error that says "no swap device".
I'm =
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 10:27:12 -0800
>From: Ian King <iking(a)microsoft.com>
>Subject: RE: [pups] Swap device in V6?
>
>I, too, have /dev/rk0 mknod'ed as 0,0. Relaetd to this, ps does
something
>odd (at least to my experience) with the open() system call - it calls
'open
>("/dev")', without a second argument for mode; that seems like a no-no
in C,
>
>- -----Original Message-----
>From: Ken Wellsch [mailto:kwellsch@tampabay.rr.com]
>Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 9:52 AM
>To: Roger Ivie
>Cc: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
>Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?
>
>The "ps" command source appears to be poking around /dev looking for a
>block device that matches the kernel value for swapdev (or something
like
>that) and confirming it is a block device.
>
>Yet I see I have /dev/rk0 mknod'ed 0/0 and it is a block device but
"ps"
>still gripes about "no swap device."
>
>So I'm missing something I guess.
>
>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 08:44:23 +1100 (EST)
>From: John Holden <johnh(a)psych.usyd.edu.au>
>Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?
>
<< snip >>
>The 'ps' command looks up the symbol table of the unix kernel, and gets
>the device entry for swap (_swapdev), and the process table (_proc)
>It would open /dev as file, and read the directory entries to find a
matching
>device entry, so it then had the name of a device to open (you cannot
open
>a device based only in the major and minor device entries from a user
>process).
>It also uses /dev to decode tty entries into names.
>
>For 'ps' to work correctly, /unix had to be linked to the real kernel,
say
>rkunix.
---
Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection
cube1(a)home.com visit
http://members.home.net/thecomputercollection
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>From Jay Jaeger [mailto:cube1@home.com] Wed Feb 28 04:27:56 2001
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Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 10:27:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu>
Message-Id: <200102271827.KAA16090(a)chiton.ucsd.edu>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] 2.11BSD boot hangs.
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> From owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Mon Feb 26 13:32 PST 2001
> From: jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de
> Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 22:15:52 +0100 (CET)
> Subject: Re: [pups] 2.11BSD boot hangs.
> To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
>
> >> System configuration:
> >> 11/73 (M8192), one with FP accel. or one without. (Jumpers W1..W6 in,
> >> W7..W9 out, so that the CPU enters ODT at power up.)
> >
> > There is a jumper (I forget which one) that enables/disables the
> > 'halt' instruction.
> BINGO! Pulling W5 solved the problem. But then I seted it again to
> double check. (I changed location today and took only the cards and
> disk with me.) In the "new" BA23 the system runs even with the W5
> jumper installed. Then I noticed the different setting of the front
> panel DIP swich. The upper switch is off and the lower on. The switches
> of the other cabinet are both on. If I boot the machine with W5
> installed and the upper switch on it hangs. It continues to run
> immediately if it is switched off. What is the purpose of this
> switches?
Quote from _Microcomputer Products Handbook_ EB26078 41/85 (DEC)
"Control Panel
. . .
The 2-position linetime clock (LTC) switch (switch 1) is used to enable
or disable the LTC function. Setting switch 1 ON enables the LTC to
function under software control. Setting switch 1 to the OFF position
disables the LTC function. The other 2-position switch (switch 2) is
not used."
Note (by me) this refers to microPDP usage of the BA23. The LTC is not
used by the microVAX which could occupy the same box.
carl
On 26 Feb, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
>> 2.11 BSD UNIX #115: Sat Apr 22 19:07:25 PDT 2000
>> sms1@curly.2bsd.com:/usr/src/sys/GENERIC
> That looks good - and familiar ;)
;-)
> The next thing that should have come out is the '# ' single user
> prompt.
... like setup.ps says.
>> else happens. The "Run" LED at the front panel is off. I tried with an
>
> That sounds like the system 'halt'ed for some (unknown) reason.
> Sigh - that kernel should work fine, especially with a RQDX3/RD54.
Yes. All the devices where used in a MVII bevore and are knowen to
work. Thats a bit confusing.
>> System configuration:
>> 11/73 (M8192), one with FP accel. or one without. (Jumpers W1..W6 in,
>> W7..W9 out, so that the CPU enters ODT at power up.)
>
> There is a jumper (I forget which one) that enables/disables the
> 'halt' instruction.
BINGO! Pulling W5 solved the problem. But then I seted it again to
double check. (I changed location today and took only the cards and
disk with me.) In the "new" BA23 the system runs even with the W5
jumper installed. Then I noticed the different setting of the front
panel DIP swich. The upper switch is off and the lower on. The switches
of the other cabinet are both on. If I boot the machine with W5
installed and the upper switch on it hangs. It continues to run
immediately if it is switched off. What is the purpose of this
switches?
OK. The machine is currently un-tar-ing /usr... :-)))
Ahh, and an other question: Can the RT11 bootstrap listed in
http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/bootstr…
be used to boot 2.11BSD? I have no bootstrap ROM card. (Emanuel, hint,
hint. ;-) ) So I use a minicom script to load the bootstrap via ODT.
But the current bootstrap script is for TMSCP. So I have to load the
bootblocks from tape...
--
tschüß,
Jochen
Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/
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>From John Holden <johnh(a)psych.usyd.edu.au> Tue Feb 27 07:44:23 2001
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Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 08:44:23 +1100 (EST)
From: John Holden <johnh(a)psych.usyd.edu.au>
Message-Id: <200102262144.IAA24139(a)psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au>
To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?
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The root device, swap device, swap size and offset are hard coded into the
kernel configuration file c.c. This is build by 'myconf', although a lot
of people would directly edit l.s and c.c (in /usr/sys/conf). There are no
magic /dev/swap entries. Edition 7 does the same thing.
For a RK05 disk, the filesystem would typically occupy 4000 blocks, with the
last 872 being allocated for swap. If you built a new root disk, you had to
be careful that the disk size you gave to 'mkfs', didn't overlap the
hard configured swap disk. No disk partitions.
You can find out the current values by using one of the debuggers (db or cdb)
to find the values of swap (_swapdev), swap size (_nswap), swap offset (_swplo)
and root device (_rootdev). You can also use 'nm' to get the symbol table,
and 'od' the kernel file /unix. The RK05 was usually the first entry in
the device switch tables, so the major/minor numbers are usually 0.
The 'ps' command looks up the symbol table of the unix kernel, and gets
the device entry for swap (_swapdev), and the process table (_proc)
It would open /dev as file, and read the directory entries to find a matching
device entry, so it then had the name of a device to open (you cannot open
a device based only in the major and minor device entries from a user process).
It also uses /dev to decode tty entries into names.
For 'ps' to work correctly, /unix had to be linked to the real kernel, say
rkunix.
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue Feb 27 08:32:38 2001
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: Re: [pups] Announce: The Unix Tree
In-Reply-To: <200102261747.SAA16216(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de"
at "Feb 26, 2001 06:47:11 pm"
To: jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 09:32:38 +1100 (EST)
CC: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
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In article by jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de:
> On 26 Feb, Warren Toomey wrote:
>
> > Because of the license restrictions, you need your normal UNIX Archive
> > username and password to browse.
> Hmm. Can you set up Apache to provide SSL / HTTPS? I don't like to send
> passwords unencrypted around the world.
> tsch__,
> Jochen
They are not real passwords, in a sense. There is only a userpool of
1,000 usernames/passwords.
When you register for access into the Unix Archive, you get one out of
the pool. The only purpose here is to prove to SCO that you indeed
agreed to their on-line license before you were given access to the
archive.
I'd be quite happy to completely dispense with the passwords altogether
and run an anonymous service. If/when Caldera work out what they are doing
with this stuff, I'll push them to allow for anonymous access.
Cheers,
Warren
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Tue Feb 27 08:26:24 2001
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Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 14:26:24 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <200102262226.f1QMQOv11403(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] 2.11BSD boot hangs.
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Hi -
> From jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Feb 26 13:16:40 2001
> > There is a jumper (I forget which one) that enables/disables the
> > 'halt' instruction.
> BINGO! Pulling W5 solved the problem. But then I seted it again to
> double check. (I changed location today and took only the cards and
> disk with me.) In the "new" BA23 the system runs even with the W5
Years ago I was completely suprised that 'halt' in kernel mode did
not work and the system simply continued executing the next instruction.
> jumper installed. Then I noticed the different setting of the front
> panel DIP swich. The upper switch is off and the lower on. The switches
> of the other cabinet are both on. If I boot the machine with W5
> installed and the upper switch on it hangs. It continues to run
> immediately if it is switched off. What is the purpose of this
> switches?
I suspect that one of the switches enables the line frequency clock.
With out a clock running things will work (at least minimally) as
long as there are some interrupts happening.
I vaguely remember that some systems (11/23?) had an externally
enabled clock and if that switch was not set correctly the OS could
be installed but the system would "hang" later on due to no context
switch scheduling.
> OK. The machine is currently un-tar-ing /usr... :-)))
Fantastic!
> Ahh, and an other question: Can the RT11 bootstrap listed in
> http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/bootstr…
> be used to boot 2.11BSD? I have no bootstrap ROM card. (Emanuel, hint,
I think it will work. 2.11 is expecting the registers to contain
the following:
R0 = unit number
R1 = CSR of booting controller
as long as those are set it should not matter what bootcode is used.
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
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>From Dave Horsfall <dave(a)horsfall.org> Tue Feb 27 08:39:30 2001
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To: Ken Wellsch <kwellsch(a)tampabay.rr.com>
cc: Roger Ivie <IVIE(a)cc.usu.edu>, <PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?
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On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Ken Wellsch wrote:
> Yet I see I have /dev/rk0 mknod'ed 0/0 and it is a block device but "ps"
> still gripes about "no swap device."
As I dimly recall, you need to link "/dev/drum" to whichever is the swap
device.
--
Dave Horsfall CL VK2KFU dave(a)geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: * 9978-7490
Geac Computers P/L (ERP Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia
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>From Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> Tue Feb 27 08:45:56 2001
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Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?
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On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Roger Ivie wrote:
> It is indeed the case that V6 needs swap to fork. Forking in V6 is done
> essentially by swapping the task out to disk and (oops!) forgetting to
> delete the in-core copy. At least, that's how it looked to me.
Yes, that's how it was done, leading to the dreaded "panic: swap". I
think the swapped image became the parent, and the in-core one the child,
hence the child was pretty well guaranteed to run before the parent (it
typically did an exec() afterwards).
--
Dave Horsfall CL VK2KFU dave(a)geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: * 9978-7490
Geac Computers P/L (ERP Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia
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>From Ken Wellsch <kwellsch(a)tampabay.rr.com> Tue Feb 27 08:51:11 2001
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Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?
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Dave Horsfall wrote:
>
> On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Ken Wellsch wrote:
>
> > Yet I see I have /dev/rk0 mknod'ed 0/0 and it is a block device but "ps"
> > still gripes about "no swap device."
>
> As I dimly recall, you need to link "/dev/drum" to whichever is the swap
> device.
After some wise person earlier explained the whole process in detail,
once I'd seen the final step ,I realized my error - I was booting rkunix
and as it turned out, had not matched /unix with that kernel... I just
tried it now and 'ps' is a happy camper. B^)
-- Ken
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>From Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> Tue Feb 27 08:40:09 2001
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On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Ken Wellsch wrote:
> Yet I see I have /dev/rk0 mknod'ed 0/0 and it is a block device but "ps"
> still gripes about "no swap device."
As I dimly recall, you need to link "/dev/drum" to whichever is the swap
device.
--
Dave Horsfall CL VK2KFU dave(a)geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: * 9978-7490
Geac Computers P/L (ERP Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia
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>From John Holden <johnh(a)psych.usyd.edu.au> Tue Feb 27 09:12:07 2001
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Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 10:12:07 +1100 (EST)
From: John Holden <johnh(a)psych.usyd.edu.au>
Message-Id: <200102262312.KAA26058(a)psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: [pups] Forks under V6
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> It is indeed the case that V6 needs swap to fork. Forking in V6 is done
> essentially by swapping the task out to disk and (oops!) forgetting to
> delete the in-core copy. At least, that's how it looked to me.
No. Fork calls the internal version 'newproc'. It tries to allocate memory from
the core map for the new process, and only when it fails that it creates the new
process as a swap image. Effectively, it copies out the parent as a swap
image, but attaches it to the child process (the parent isn't really swapped).
In 'miniunix', the V6 strip down for pdp-11's without memory management
(pdp11/20, 05, 10 and 40's without the proper options), only a single process
would fit in core, so every context switch or fork required swapping.
I cannot speak for pre V6
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>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)update.uu.se> Tue Feb 27 09:46:45 2001
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From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)update.uu.se>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] 2.11BSD boot hangs.
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On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> > jumper installed. Then I noticed the different setting of the front
> > panel DIP swich. The upper switch is off and the lower on. The switches
> > of the other cabinet are both on. If I boot the machine with W5
> > installed and the upper switch on it hangs. It continues to run
> > immediately if it is switched off. What is the purpose of this
> > switches?
>
> I suspect that one of the switches enables the line frequency clock.
> With out a clock running things will work (at least minimally) as
> long as there are some interrupts happening.
Could be. I also remember seeing somewhere that the two dip switches on
the front panel of BA23 boxes should be set differently for PDP-11s and
VAXen. Appearantly they expect the boot button to behave in different ways
on the bus as well... (and HALT I think)
Don't have that docuemnt anywhere close though...
> I vaguely remember that some systems (11/23?) had an externally
> enabled clock and if that switch was not set correctly the OS could
> be installed but the system would "hang" later on due to no context
> switch scheduling.
That definitely happens for RSX atleast. You *must* have a clock interrupt
running, or you are cooked.
> > Ahh, and an other question: Can the RT11 bootstrap listed in
> > http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/bootstr…
> > be used to boot 2.11BSD? I have no bootstrap ROM card. (Emanuel, hint,
>
> I think it will work. 2.11 is expecting the registers to contain
> the following:
>
> R0 = unit number
> R1 = CSR of booting controller
>
> as long as those are set it should not matter what bootcode is used.
Then it's more forgiving than the RSX boot code. I have tried that
bootstrap and it won't boot RSX atleast, that much I know...
Speaking of which; does anyone have boot roms for TMSCP for the M9312?
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Ken Wellsch wrote:
>
> Yet I see I have /dev/rk0 mknod'ed 0/0 and it is a block device but "ps"
> still gripes about "no swap device."
>
> So I'm missing something I guess.
>
Based on my recent experience with Ultrix-11 (which warns you not
to try and change the partiitioning on certain drive types as the
kernel has some references hard-coded) what you may be missing are
the devices for the individual partitions. Is there an equivalent
to MAKEDEV?? Ultrix uses a program named "msf" (for "make special
file") and so you never see what the partitioning layout is unless
you peek at the sources.
Good luck.
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill(a)cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
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>From Ian King <iking(a)microsoft.com> Tue Feb 27 04:27:12 2001
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From: Ian King <iking(a)microsoft.com>
To: "'Ken Wellsch'" <kwellsch(a)tampabay.rr.com>, Roger Ivie <IVIE(a)cc.usu.edu>
Cc: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: RE: [pups] Swap device in V6?
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 10:27:12 -0800
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I, too, have /dev/rk0 mknod'ed as 0,0. Relaetd to this, ps does something
odd (at least to my experience) with the open() system call - it calls 'open
("/dev")', without a second argument for mode; that seems like a no-no in C,
but for C of this era I'm not sure. That call seems to succeed; it's a few
statements later where it fails with the "no swap device" console message.
But where cc seems to be failing (in /lib/c0), it is doing a fork(),
execve() and wait(), and if the system needs to swap to do that, not being
able to find swap space would sure bugger things up.
I'll examine my /dev/rk0 structure next.... -- Ian
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Wellsch [mailto:kwellsch@tampabay.rr.com]
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 9:52 AM
To: Roger Ivie
Cc: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?
Roger Ivie wrote:
>
> Ian King said:
> > I've combed the docs and the code, and I can't find ANYthing about how =
> > swap space is assigned or designated. Does anyone have any hints? =
> > Thanks -- Ian=20
>
> Yeah, I figured this out a while ago. Unfortunately, I'm in the middle
> of changing employers so everything's in boxes at the moment.
>
> Basically, the swap space is hard-coded into the device drivers. If you
> take a look at, for example, the RK05 driver you'll see that one of the
> drives is smaller than the others. That extra space is the swap space.
> I forget how the rest of the system is informed of the swap space, but
> it's done in the disk driver sources IIRC.
I took a quick look at this this morning and as Roger says, the kernel
is built with a wired in swap. In the case of the kernel 'rkunix,' in
looking at usr/sys/run or something like that, I see they are wiring
the swap to be device major=0 and minor=0 which is the root RK05 drive.
Looking at the code it seems the first 4000 blocks are file system and
a following 782 (or something like that) are for swap.
The "ps" command source appears to be poking around /dev looking for a
block device that matches the kernel value for swapdev (or something like
that) and confirming it is a block device.
Yet I see I have /dev/rk0 mknod'ed 0/0 and it is a block device but "ps"
still gripes about "no swap device."
So I'm missing something I guess.
-- Ken
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>From Ken Wellsch [mailto:kwellsch@tampabay.rr.com] Tue Feb 27 04:04:53 2001
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Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 12:04:53 -0600 (MDT)
From: Roger Ivie <IVIE(a)cc.usu.edu>
Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?
To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
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Ian King wrote:
> But where cc seems to be failing (in /lib/c0), it is doing a fork(),
> execve() and wait(), and if the system needs to swap to do that, not being
> able to find swap space would sure bugger things up.
It is indeed the case that V6 needs swap to fork. Forking in V6 is done
essentially by swapping the task out to disk and (oops!) forgetting to
delete the in-core copy. At least, that's how it looked to me.
Roger Ivie
ivie(a)cc.usu.edu
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>From Ian King <iking(a)microsoft.com> Tue Feb 27 05:06:07 2001
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From: Ian King <iking(a)microsoft.com>
To: "'Steven M. Schultz'" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Serial settings (was RE: [pups] 2.11BSD boot hangs.)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 11:06:07 -0800
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FWIW, I noticed that Unix V6 is happier with 7E1 for its console, too; I'm
using a terminal emulator, and was getting garbage from V6 (but had had no
problems with RSX-11). -- Ian
-----Original Message-----
From: Steven M. Schultz [mailto:sms@moe.2bsd.com]
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 10:22 AM
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] 2.11BSD boot hangs.
[snip]
> BTW: What serial parameters does 2.11BSD use? The first time I booted
> UNIX I got garbage after "user mem = 307200". I seted the vt220 to 7e1
> and this worked, but is it correct?
Yes, 7e1 is correct - a legacy setting from eons ago.
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>From "Fred N. van Kempen" <Fred.van.Kempen(a)microwalt.nl> Tue Feb 27 05:41:07 2001
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From: "Fred N. van Kempen" <Fred.van.Kempen(a)microwalt.nl>
To: "PUPS Mailing List (E-mail)" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: [pups] Ultrix-11 V3.1 hang on DEQNA ?
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 20:41:07 +0100
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All,
I'm almost there. If only I can tell my 11/23+ _not_ to hang as soon
as I enable networking by configuring the Ethernet (qe0; DEQNA) card
with ifconfig.
Does anyone have docs regarding the DEQNA and/or DELQA so I can check the
board's physical settings?
Thx,
Fted
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>From Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk> Tue Feb 27 06:17:18 2001
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Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 20:17:18 +0000
To: Ian King <iking(a)microsoft.com>
Cc: "'Ken Wellsch'" <kwellsch(a)tampabay.rr.com>, Roger Ivie <IVIE(a)cc.usu.edu>,
PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
From: Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?
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In later unixes, 2.11 for instance, /dev/swap is a link to the swap
device. Is ps attempting to open /dev/swap and finding that it either
isn't there or it is mknoded to an incorrect device?
Robin
In message <8D25F244B8274141B5D313CA4823F39C0235D1C9(a)red-msg-06.redmond.
corp.microsoft.com>, Ian King <iking(a)microsoft.com> writes
>I, too, have /dev/rk0 mknod'ed as 0,0. Relaetd to this, ps does something
>odd (at least to my experience) with the open() system call - it calls 'open
>("/dev")', without a second argument for mode; that seems like a no-no in C,
>but for C of this era I'm not sure. That call seems to succeed; it's a few
>statements later where it fails with the "no swap device" console message.
>
>But where cc seems to be failing (in /lib/c0), it is doing a fork(),
>execve() and wait(), and if the system needs to swap to do that, not being
>able to find swap space would sure bugger things up.
>
>I'll examine my /dev/rk0 structure next.... -- Ian
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Ken Wellsch [mailto:kwellsch@tampabay.rr.com]
>Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 9:52 AM
>To: Roger Ivie
>Cc: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
>Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?
>
>
>Roger Ivie wrote:
>>
>> Ian King said:
>> > I've combed the docs and the code, and I can't find ANYthing about how =
>> > swap space is assigned or designated. Does anyone have any hints? =
>> > Thanks -- Ian=20
>>
>> Yeah, I figured this out a while ago. Unfortunately, I'm in the middle
>> of changing employers so everything's in boxes at the moment.
>>
>> Basically, the swap space is hard-coded into the device drivers. If you
>> take a look at, for example, the RK05 driver you'll see that one of the
>> drives is smaller than the others. That extra space is the swap space.
>> I forget how the rest of the system is informed of the swap space, but
>> it's done in the disk driver sources IIRC.
>
>I took a quick look at this this morning and as Roger says, the kernel
>is built with a wired in swap. In the case of the kernel 'rkunix,' in
>looking at usr/sys/run or something like that, I see they are wiring
>the swap to be device major=0 and minor=0 which is the root RK05 drive.
>
>Looking at the code it seems the first 4000 blocks are file system and
>a following 782 (or something like that) are for swap.
>
>The "ps" command source appears to be poking around /dev looking for a
>block device that matches the kernel value for swapdev (or something like
>that) and confirming it is a block device.
>
>Yet I see I have /dev/rk0 mknod'ed 0/0 and it is a block device but "ps"
>still gripes about "no swap device."
>
>So I'm missing something I guess.
>
>-- Ken
____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk
M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD Old computers and radios always welcome
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>From Ken Wellsch <kwellsch(a)tampabay.rr.com> Tue Feb 27 06:22:35 2001
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To: Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk>
CC: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?
References: <8D25F244B8274141B5D313CA4823F39C0235D1C9(a)red-msg-06.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <ZchHXUAOnrm6Ewzo(a)ruffnready.co.uk>
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I know I for one had forgotten just what "the state of the art" was with
UNIX back in 1975. If you can, please do look at the source for V6/ps.
Really. /dev/swap? In your dreams! B^) Cheers, -- Ken
Robin Birch wrote:
>
> In later unixes, 2.11 for instance, /dev/swap is a link to the swap
> device. Is ps attempting to open /dev/swap and finding that it either
> isn't there or it is mknoded to an incorrect device?
>
> Robin
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>From Ian King <iking(a)microsoft.com> Tue Feb 27 06:29:48 2001
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From: Ian King <iking(a)microsoft.com>
To: "'Robin Birch'" <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk>
Cc: "'Ken Wellsch'" <kwellsch(a)tampabay.rr.com>, Roger Ivie <IVIE(a)cc.usu.edu>,
PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: RE: [pups] Swap device in V6?
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 12:29:48 -0800
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I was wondering about that, as I've seen that sort of thing in other *nixes,
too. I tried creating a link to /dev/swap from /dev/rk0, and it didn't help
ps (same error message).
I'm going to figure out some way to print out ps.c later and trace through
it; I was going through it with ed on the PDP-11 (which was fun, in a
twisted, nostalgic sort of way). If I can figure out exactly how it's
looking for what it's looking for, perhaps I can figure out why it isn't
finding it. :-)
I've found the stuff on coming up in single-user mode, too - with 173030 in
the switch register (I have the programmer's panel on my 11/34a). FYI. --
Ian
-----Original Message-----
From: Robin Birch [mailto:robin@ruffnready.co.uk]
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 12:17 PM
To: Ian King
Cc: 'Ken Wellsch'; Roger Ivie; PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?
In later unixes, 2.11 for instance, /dev/swap is a link to the swap
device. Is ps attempting to open /dev/swap and finding that it either
isn't there or it is mknoded to an incorrect device?
Robin
In message <8D25F244B8274141B5D313CA4823F39C0235D1C9(a)red-msg-06.redmond.
corp.microsoft.com>, Ian King <iking(a)microsoft.com> writes
>I, too, have /dev/rk0 mknod'ed as 0,0. Relaetd to this, ps does something
>odd (at least to my experience) with the open() system call - it calls
'open
>("/dev")', without a second argument for mode; that seems like a no-no in
C,
>but for C of this era I'm not sure. That call seems to succeed; it's a few
>statements later where it fails with the "no swap device" console message.
>
>But where cc seems to be failing (in /lib/c0), it is doing a fork(),
>execve() and wait(), and if the system needs to swap to do that, not being
>able to find swap space would sure bugger things up.
>
>I'll examine my /dev/rk0 structure next.... -- Ian
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Ken Wellsch [mailto:kwellsch@tampabay.rr.com]
>Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 9:52 AM
>To: Roger Ivie
>Cc: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
>Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?
>
>
>Roger Ivie wrote:
>>
>> Ian King said:
>> > I've combed the docs and the code, and I can't find ANYthing about how
=
>> > swap space is assigned or designated. Does anyone have any hints? =
>> > Thanks -- Ian=20
>>
>> Yeah, I figured this out a while ago. Unfortunately, I'm in the middle
>> of changing employers so everything's in boxes at the moment.
>>
>> Basically, the swap space is hard-coded into the device drivers. If you
>> take a look at, for example, the RK05 driver you'll see that one of the
>> drives is smaller than the others. That extra space is the swap space.
>> I forget how the rest of the system is informed of the swap space, but
>> it's done in the disk driver sources IIRC.
>
>I took a quick look at this this morning and as Roger says, the kernel
>is built with a wired in swap. In the case of the kernel 'rkunix,' in
>looking at usr/sys/run or something like that, I see they are wiring
>the swap to be device major=0 and minor=0 which is the root RK05 drive.
>
>Looking at the code it seems the first 4000 blocks are file system and
>a following 782 (or something like that) are for swap.
>
>The "ps" command source appears to be poking around /dev looking for a
>block device that matches the kernel value for swapdev (or something like
>that) and confirming it is a block device.
>
>Yet I see I have /dev/rk0 mknod'ed 0/0 and it is a block device but "ps"
>still gripes about "no swap device."
>
>So I'm missing something I guess.
>
>-- Ken
____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk
M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD Old computers and radios always welcome
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>From "Fred N. van Kempen" <Fred.van.Kempen(a)microwalt.nl> Tue Feb 27 07:01:36 2001
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From: "Fred N. van Kempen" <Fred.van.Kempen(a)microwalt.nl>
To: "'Robin Birch'" <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk>, Ian King <iking(a)microsoft.com>
Cc: "'Ken Wellsch'" <kwellsch(a)tampabay.rr.com>, Roger Ivie <IVIE(a)cc.usu.edu>,
PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: RE: [pups] Swap device in V6?
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 22:01:36 +0100
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> In later unixes, 2.11 for instance, /dev/swap is a link to the swap
> device. Is ps attempting to open /dev/swap and finding that it either
> isn't there or it is mknoded to an incorrect device?
That is often the case.. dunno about V6 though.. is a long time ago :)
--f
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Hi.
Yesterday I installed 2.11BSD on my PDP11/73. Everything went fine up
to the first time when UNIX was booted. The kernel came up, init was
started, autoconfig run and printed out the devices it had (not) found.
My disk and tape were found but then, after printing:
-----
73Boot from tms(0,0,0) at 0174500
: ra(0,0)unix
Boot: bootdev=02400 bootcsr=0172150
2.11 BSD UNIX #115: Sat Apr 22 19:07:25 PDT 2000
sms1@curly.2bsd.com:/usr/src/sys/GENERIC
ra0: Ver 3 mod 3
ra0: RD54 size=311200
phys mem = 4186112
avail mem = 3962176
user mem = 307200
June 8 21:21:24 init: configure system
hk ? csr 177440 vector 210 skipped: No CSR.
ht ? csr 172440 vector 224 skipped: No CSR.
ra 0 csr 172150 vector 154 vectorset attached
rl ? csr 174400 vector 160 skipped: No CSR.
tm ? csr 172520 vector 224 skipped: No CSR.
tms 0 csr 174500 vector 260 vectorset attached
ts ? csr 172520 vector 224 skipped: No CSR.
xp ? csr 176700 vector 254 skipped: No CSR.
-----
it hangs. Characters I type into the terminal are echod, but nothing
else happens. The "Run" LED at the front panel is of. I tried with an
other CPU und memory card, but the same happend.
System configuration:
11/73 (M8192), one with FP accel. or one without. (Jumpers W1..W6 in,
W7..W9 out, so that the CPU enters ODT at power up.)
4MB or 1MB memory card (non DEC)
Sigma DLV11-J clone for console (CSR 1765{0,1,2}0 and 177560)
TK50 with TQK50 (CSR 174500)
RA54, last week reformated on a MV2000 with RQDX3 (CSR 172150)
BA23 from a MVII.
BTW: What serial parameters does 2.11BSD use? The first time I booted
UNIX I got garbage after "user mem = 307200". I seted the vt220 to 7e1
and this worked, but is it correct?
--
tschuess,
Jochen
Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz
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>From Roger Ivie <IVIE(a)cc.usu.edu> Tue Feb 27 03:31:41 2001
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Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 10:31:41 -0700 (MST)
From: Roger Ivie <IVIE(a)cc.usu.edu>
Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?
To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
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Ian King said:
> I've combed the docs and the code, and I can't find ANYthing about how =
> swap space is assigned or designated. Does anyone have any hints? =
> Thanks -- Ian=20
Yeah, I figured this out a while ago. Unfortunately, I'm in the middle
of changing employers so everything's in boxes at the moment.
Basically, the swap space is hard-coded into the device drivers. If you
take a look at, for example, the RK05 driver you'll see that one of the
drives is smaller than the others. That extra space is the swap space.
I forget how the rest of the system is informed of the swap space, but
it's done in the disk driver sources IIRC.
Roger Ivie
ivie(a)cc.usu.edu
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>From Ken Wellsch <kwellsch(a)tampabay.rr.com> Tue Feb 27 03:51:49 2001
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From: Ken Wellsch <kwellsch(a)tampabay.rr.com>
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To: Roger Ivie <IVIE(a)cc.usu.edu>
CC: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?
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Roger Ivie wrote:
>
> Ian King said:
> > I've combed the docs and the code, and I can't find ANYthing about how =
> > swap space is assigned or designated. Does anyone have any hints? =
> > Thanks -- Ian=20
>
> Yeah, I figured this out a while ago. Unfortunately, I'm in the middle
> of changing employers so everything's in boxes at the moment.
>
> Basically, the swap space is hard-coded into the device drivers. If you
> take a look at, for example, the RK05 driver you'll see that one of the
> drives is smaller than the others. That extra space is the swap space.
> I forget how the rest of the system is informed of the swap space, but
> it's done in the disk driver sources IIRC.
I took a quick look at this this morning and as Roger says, the kernel
is built with a wired in swap. In the case of the kernel 'rkunix,' in
looking at usr/sys/run or something like that, I see they are wiring
the swap to be device major=0 and minor=0 which is the root RK05 drive.
Looking at the code it seems the first 4000 blocks are file system and
a following 782 (or something like that) are for swap.
The "ps" command source appears to be poking around /dev looking for a
block device that matches the kernel value for swapdev (or something like
that) and confirming it is a block device.
Yet I see I have /dev/rk0 mknod'ed 0/0 and it is a block device but "ps"
still gripes about "no swap device."
So I'm missing something I guess.
-- Ken
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Tue Feb 27 04:22:23 2001
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Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 10:22:23 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <200102261822.f1QIMNt09941(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] 2.11BSD boot hangs.
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Hi -
> From: jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de
>
> Yesterday I installed 2.11BSD on my PDP11/73. Everything went fine up
> to the first time when UNIX was booted. The kernel came up, init was
> started, autoconfig run and printed out the devices it had (not) found.
> 2.11 BSD UNIX #115: Sat Apr 22 19:07:25 PDT 2000
> sms1@curly.2bsd.com:/usr/src/sys/GENERIC
That looks good - and familiar ;)
> xp ? csr 176700 vector 254 skipped: No CSR.
> -----
> it hangs. Characters I type into the terminal are echod, but nothing
The next thing that should have come out is the '# ' single user
prompt.
> else happens. The "Run" LED at the front panel is off. I tried with an
That sounds like the system 'halt'ed for some (unknown) reason.
Sigh - that kernel should work fine, especially with a RQDX3/RD54. I
am at a loss to explain/diagnose the problem.
> System configuration:
> 11/73 (M8192), one with FP accel. or one without. (Jumpers W1..W6 in,
> W7..W9 out, so that the CPU enters ODT at power up.)
There is a jumper (I forget which one) that enables/disables the
'halt' instruction. If 'halt' is disabled then the 'halt' instruction
is treated as a 'nop' even in kernel mode. If 'halt' is enabled then
the console ODT will be entered if the kernel executes a halt.
Looks like we'll have to try and solve this the hard way ;(
After the system hangs press the 'halt' button on the front of the
machine and note the PC - hopefully that value will give a clue as
to where the kernel is at the time (likely in a clock interrupt).
> BTW: What serial parameters does 2.11BSD use? The first time I booted
> UNIX I got garbage after "user mem = 307200". I seted the vt220 to 7e1
> and this worked, but is it correct?
Yes, 7e1 is correct - a legacy setting from eons ago.
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
On Sun, 25 Feb 2001, Robin Birch wrote:
> Dear All,
> Having got to the point where I can get ultrix trying to boot on p11 I
> can confirm that it complains of stray interrupts on p11 as well. A
> thought occurred to me over the weekend that I haven't had time to try
> out. Is this the toy clock. It is certainly built into p11, is it
> built into Bob Supnik's emulator and if so, does it generate interrupts?
Nope. The TOY clock don't generate interrupts.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mon Feb 26 04:48:51 2001
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Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 10:48:51 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <200102251848.f1PImpn25642(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Stray Interupts
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> From: Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk>
>
> Having got to the point where I can get ultrix trying to boot on p11 I
> can confirm that it complains of stray interrupts on p11 as well. A
> thought occurred to me over the weekend that I haven't had time to try
> out. Is this the toy clock. It is certainly built into p11, is it
> built into Bob Supnik's emulator and if so, does it generate interrupts?
>
As Billy pointed out the TOY clock does not generate interrupts. The
line frequency clock does but the TOY clock does not.
Looking at the Ultrix-3.1 sources I found something that may be
relevant in sys/errlog.c:
/*
* Log a stray device interrupt.
*
* A stray interrupt is defined as one that occurs for
* a configured device through a valid vector address,
* but is unexpected. In the case of big disks, a stray
* interrupt is logged when the interrupt service routine
* is entered and the device is not active and no attention
* summary bits are set.
*/
One guess is that other systems do not use or concern themselves with
'attention summary' bits and simply dismiss the interrupt without
comment.
Looking at the errlogs (I do not know what the commands for doing that
are but a big of digging would probably find them) might yield more
information.
Cheers.
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
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>From Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk> Mon Feb 26 07:02:52 2001
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Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 21:02:52 +0000
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
From: Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [pups] Stray Interupts
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Rats,
This means that it won't be simple to fix!!!!!!!!
It could mean that running Ultrix on a simulator isn't on without some
work on the emulators themselves. When the SI message is generated it
comes out with a number that looks like an address. Would this point to
the source of the interrupt? On p11 it is a constant address, I just
can't remember what it is for the moment.
Cheers
Robin
In message <200102251848.f1PImpn25642(a)moe.2bsd.com>, Steven M. Schultz
<sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> writes
>> From: Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk>
>>
>> Having got to the point where I can get ultrix trying to boot on p11 I
>> can confirm that it complains of stray interrupts on p11 as well. A
>> thought occurred to me over the weekend that I haven't had time to try
>> out. Is this the toy clock. It is certainly built into p11, is it
>> built into Bob Supnik's emulator and if so, does it generate interrupts?
>>
> As Billy pointed out the TOY clock does not generate interrupts. The
> line frequency clock does but the TOY clock does not.
>
> Looking at the Ultrix-3.1 sources I found something that may be
> relevant in sys/errlog.c:
>
>/*
> * Log a stray device interrupt.
> *
> * A stray interrupt is defined as one that occurs for
> * a configured device through a valid vector address,
> * but is unexpected. In the case of big disks, a stray
> * interrupt is logged when the interrupt service routine
> * is entered and the device is not active and no attention
> * summary bits are set.
> */
>
> One guess is that other systems do not use or concern themselves with
> 'attention summary' bits and simply dismiss the interrupt without
> comment.
>
> Looking at the errlogs (I do not know what the commands for doing that
> are but a big of digging would probably find them) might yield more
> information.
>
> Cheers.
>
> Steven Schultz
> sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk
M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD Old computers and radios always welcome
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>From Bill Gunshannon <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu> Mon Feb 26 07:37:21 2001
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Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 16:37:21 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Gunshannon <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu>
To: Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk>
cc: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Stray Interupts
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On Sun, 25 Feb 2001, Robin Birch wrote:
> Rats,
> This means that it won't be simple to fix!!!!!!!!
>
> It could mean that running Ultrix on a simulator isn't on without some
> work on the emulators themselves.
Well, that's my estimation. I thought at first it was harmless, but
work I have attempted over this weekend using the Supnik emulator has
changed my mind.
> When the SI message is generated it
> comes out with a number that looks like an address. Would this point to
> the source of the interrupt? On p11 it is a constant address, I just
> can't remember what it is for the moment.
Let me guess: 176700. :-)
It's the csr of the device that issued the stray interrupt. My guess is
your having the same trouble with p11 that I am having with Bob's. It's
the hp device and every RP disk access causes stray interrupts.
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill(a)cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Feb 26 04:57:10 2001
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To: Bill Gunshannon <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu>
Cc: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au,
Hartmut Brandt <brandt(a)fokus.gmd.de>,
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On Friday, 23 February 2001 at 8:43:41 -0500, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
>> so the machine can be placed on a network. P11's also quite a bit
>> more efficient/fast. Configuration can be puzzling but sample
>> config files are available (from various PUPS folks who run P11).
>
> I would love to us the Begemot emulator. I have the latest version but
> I have been unable to get any of my disk images to work. Can anyone
> tell me if you can use the disk images from the other emulators and if
> so, how?? Do they have to be converted somehow like tapes??
*sigh* The Begemot emulator has bitrotted a little. I can no longer
get it to work, though admittedly I didn't try very hard the last
time, and it may be something as simple as a corrupted disk image.
But the other thing is that the Begemot ftp site is no longer
accessible, which is somewhat embarrassing, since I host it. I'm
copying J�rg Micheel and Harti Brandt, the Begemot people, and I hope
that we'll get it up again soon. J�rg, Harti, the problem is that I
migrated a system disk, and seem to have lost the connection to the
ftp files. You should find them somewhere on the file systems
/freebie or /freebie/usr, which are the old system disk, still
spinning.
Greg
--
Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
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>From "Fred N. van Kempen" <Fred.van.Kempen(a)microwalt.nl> Mon Feb 26 10:39:25 2001
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From: "Fred N. van Kempen" <Fred.van.Kempen(a)microwalt.nl>
To: "'Bill Gunshannon'" <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu>,
Robin Birch
<robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk>
Cc: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: RE: [pups] Stray Interupts
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 01:39:25 +0100
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All,
Robin Birch wrote:
> > This means that it won't be simple to fix!!!!!!!!
Sure, fix the source :)
> > It could mean that running Ultrix on a simulator isn't on
> without some work on the emulators themselves.
I have been running Ultrix-11 V3.1 on Ersatz-11 without any of that. It
_could_ be linked to interrupt latency issues- Ultrix tells controller
to do something (e.g., three commands to read a sector). Controller does
as told, generating an interrupt for each of the requests saying its ready.
However, because of latency, only ints 1 and 3 actually get delivered within
the expected timeframe (can happen).
Usually (from my experience with writing Unix kernel drivers), this is not
a problem, because the "message" from (in this case) int2 will be picked up
when we start to service int3, which we _did_ see. So, even though we didnt
get int2, we were fine.
Now... emulator wakes up again, goes "oi, i messed up, better go send that
int now" and sends the int. The driver no longer _awaits_ an interrupt
(because
we cleared the AttentionNeeded flags when servicing int3), so... we get the
"stray int" message.
If this logic is correct, it will get worse when loading the host system
heavily, so latency will occur more often. On a very fast box (like my quad
CPU
P3/850 Linux box) it should hardly occur.
Anyone?
Fred (hacking on the V3.1 source to not fuck up TCP/IP on the 11/23 ..)
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Mon Feb 26 11:28:04 2001
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: [pups] Announce: The Unix Tree
To: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 12:28:04 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au
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Hi all,
A while ago I floated the idea of a web-browsable set of old Unix
distributions, along with a way of finding out how each file evolved. Well,
after a bit of coding on the weekend, I now have this available. It's
called the Unix Tree, and the URL is http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/UnixTree/
Because of the license restrictions, you need your normal UNIX Archive
username and password to browse.
I've only inserted research editions up to 7th Edition for now, in case
I have to make major changes. However, tell me what you think.
Cheers, and off to have some lunch.
Warren
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>From Bill Gunshannon <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu> Mon Feb 26 12:45:53 2001
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Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 21:45:53 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Gunshannon <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu>
To: "Fred N. van Kempen" <Fred.van.Kempen(a)microwalt.nl>
cc: PUPS Mailing List <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: RE: [pups] Stray Interupts
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On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Fred N. van Kempen wrote:
> > > It could mean that running Ultrix on a simulator isn't on
> > without some work on the emulators themselves.
> I have been running Ultrix-11 V3.1 on Ersatz-11 without any of that. It
Which I think says a lot about the quality of Ersatz-11.
> _could_ be linked to interrupt latency issues- Ultrix tells controller
> to do something (e.g., three commands to read a sector). Controller does
> as told, generating an interrupt for each of the requests saying its ready.
> However, because of latency, only ints 1 and 3 actually get delivered within
> the expected timeframe (can happen).
>
> Usually (from my experience with writing Unix kernel drivers), this is not
> a problem, because the "message" from (in this case) int2 will be picked up
> when we start to service int3, which we _did_ see. So, even though we didnt
> get int2, we were fine.
>
> Now... emulator wakes up again, goes "oi, i messed up, better go send that
> int now" and sends the int. The driver no longer _awaits_ an interrupt
> (because
> we cleared the AttentionNeeded flags when servicing int3), so... we get the
> "stray int" message.
Based on my experience over this weekend, I can definitely agree with
all of the above. It makes perfect sense and goes a long way toward
explaining my problems.
>
> If this logic is correct, it will get worse when loading the host system
> heavily, so latency will occur more often.
I can also vouch for this. I finally gave up on trying to do anything
I/O intensive on the emulated RP disk. Emulator was continuously
crashing.
> On a very fast box (like my quad CPU
> P3/850 Linux box) it should hardly occur.
While this is not a solution most people here are likely to be able to
apply :-) I also have doubts that it will solve the problem. I also
doubt that the problem is as easy as just throwing away the stray interrupt.
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill(a)cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
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>From "Ian King" <iking(a)killthewabbit.org> Mon Feb 26 17:49:22 2001
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From: "Ian King" <iking(a)killthewabbit.org>
To: <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: [pups] Swap device in V6?
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 23:49:22 -0800
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I'm working with the install image provided by Ken Wellsch, and when I =
execute the 'ps' command I get an error that says "no swap device". I'm =
not particularly concerned about ps itself, but another symptom of =
problems is that I can't compile anything in C; I get an error out of cc =
that says "Fatal error in /lib/c0". Given where that error comes from =
in cc, it appears related. =20
I've combed the docs and the code, and I can't find ANYthing about how =
swap space is assigned or designated. Does anyone have any hints? =
Thanks -- Ian=20
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I'm working with the install image =
provided by Ken=20
Wellsch, and when I execute the 'ps' command I get an error that says =
"no swap=20
device". I'm not particularly concerned about ps itself, but =
another=20
symptom of problems is that I can't compile anything in C; I get an =
error out of=20
cc that says "Fatal error in /lib/c0". Given where that error =
comes from=20
in cc, it appears related. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I've combed the docs and the code, and =
I can't find=20
ANYthing about how swap space is assigned or designated. Does =
anyone have=20
any hints? Thanks -- Ian </FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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>From Harti Brandt <brandt(a)fokus.gmd.de> Mon Feb 26 19:31:40 2001
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Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 10:31:40 +0100 (CET)
From: Harti Brandt <brandt(a)fokus.gmd.de>
To: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
cc: Bill Gunshannon <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu>,
"Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>,
Hartmut Brandt <brandt(a)fokus.gmd.de>,
Joerg Micheel <joerg(a)begemot.org>
Subject: [pups] Re: Begemot emulator (was: Stray Interupts)
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On Sun, 25 Feb 2001, Greg Lehey wrote:
GL>On Friday, 23 February 2001 at 8:43:41 -0500, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
GL>> On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
GL>>> so the machine can be placed on a network. P11's also quite a bit
GL>>> more efficient/fast. Configuration can be puzzling but sample
GL>>> config files are available (from various PUPS folks who run P11).
GL>>
GL>> I would love to us the Begemot emulator. I have the latest version but
GL>> I have been unable to get any of my disk images to work. Can anyone
GL>> tell me if you can use the disk images from the other emulators and if
GL>> so, how?? Do they have to be converted somehow like tapes??
GL>
GL>*sigh* The Begemot emulator has bitrotted a little. I can no longer
GL>get it to work, though admittedly I didn't try very hard the last
GL>time, and it may be something as simple as a corrupted disk image.
GL>But the other thing is that the Begemot ftp site is no longer
GL>accessible, which is somewhat embarrassing, since I host it. I'm
GL>copying J�rg Micheel and Harti Brandt, the Begemot people, and I hope
GL>that we'll get it up again soon. J�rg, Harti, the problem is that I
GL>migrated a system disk, and seem to have lost the connection to the
GL>ftp files. You should find them somewhere on the file systems
GL>/freebie or /freebie/usr, which are the old system disk, still
GL>spinning.
I have done some work on the emulator last autumn and plan to release
a new version Real-Soon-Now(tm). Well, I think I will to a
kill -STOP `cat /var/run/currentwork`
and try to do it in the next couple of days.
Please watch the alt.sys.pdp11 for an anouncement.
Disc images work directly (at least the images from Bob Supnik do).
harti
--
harti brandt, http://www.fokus.gmd.de/research/cc/cats/employees/hartmut.brandt/private
brandt(a)fokus.gmd.de, harti(a)begemot.org
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Hi,
I finally managed to install 2.9BSD on a real 11/34 with two RL01s;
I used KSERVE on RT-11 to transfer a boot disk image created
with E11 to a RL01 disk. I did the same for the /usr partition to be
mounted.
(It was hard to find out that I had to write a little program to convert
the usr.tar file into a tape file for E11 and un-tar it to the disk
image. It didn't work by mounting the tar-file as /dev/rl2 and doing tar
xvf /dev/rrl2; tar would hang immediatly or after the first few files.)
Good news:
I can boot Unix, mount /usr, edit /etc/dtab with vi etc.
Multiuser works too, with my notebook running MS-DOS Kermit in VT100
mode as the console and a real ADM3a attached to a second serial port.
Bad news:
Using the system is a real pain because some (no specific) programs will
cause either a "memory fault - core dumped" or a "bus error - core
dumped". E.g. calling "/lib/cpp" fails, but "/lib/cpp foo" says something
like "foo not found" and terminates without fault.
Very strange too: Sometimes when I start "awk" without parameters (just
for playing around) I get an error like "error on line 6: ..." as if the
shell tried to interpret the binary as a shell script!?
"fsck ..." occasionally fails after stage 5 with a memory fault.
"ps" fails, but "ps axl" works (or vice versa); or both (doesn't) work.
And so on :-(((
But:
There are no errors running RT-11 (it runs just fine) and RSX11/M (as I
could test it). The MAINDEC test programs for CPU and memory give no
errors (perhaps I should let them run much longer?).
There are no errors with these disk images and E11 configured to emulate
the real 11/34.
The configuration:
CPU: PDP11/34a without FPP
memory: 128 kw (one single non-DEC board)
M78?? parity module
Programmer's console
DL11-W for the console terminal
RL11 controller (revised version)
M9812 bootstrap/terminator with DL boot rom
Addresses and vectors are set up correctly.
What is going on? Did anyone have similar problems?
I suspect that either the memory or the MMU has a random behaviour,
but I'm not sure.
Christian
-----------------------------------------
EMail:
Christian.Corti(a)studserv.uni-stuttgart.de
Universität Stuttgart
Fakultät für Informatik
-----------------------------------------
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>From Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk> Mon Feb 26 04:04:47 2001
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Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 18:04:47 +0000
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
From: Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [pups] Stray Interupts
References: <200102232059.f1NKxwH11017(a)moe.2bsd.com>
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Dear All,
Having got to the point where I can get ultrix trying to boot on p11 I
can confirm that it complains of stray interrupts on p11 as well. A
thought occurred to me over the weekend that I haven't had time to try
out. Is this the toy clock. It is certainly built into p11, is it
built into Bob Supnik's emulator and if so, does it generate interrupts?
Regards
Robin
In message <200102232059.f1NKxwH11017(a)moe.2bsd.com>, Steven M. Schultz
<sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> writes
>Hi -
>
>> From: Bill Gunshannon <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu>
>> Maybe the Ultrix source would be a help in better understanding some
>> of the internals of the hardware.
>
> That could well be the case. Yes, the simulator is still being
> worked on and maintained.
>
>> My experience with Ultrix-11 up to this point would lead me to believe
>> that it isn't bugs, but I can easily accept that it is overly picky.
>>
>> I tried RSTS. As a matter of fact, I used DSKINT to create my empty
>> RP06 images. No sogn of a problem there.
>
> Ah, ok. That tends to reinforce the thought that Ultrix may be
> too picky about something.
>
>> I would love to us the Begemot emulator. I have the latest version but
>> I have been unable to get any of my disk images to work. Can anyone
>> tell me if you can use the disk images from the other emulators and if
>> so, how?? Do they have to be converted somehow like tapes??
>
> Yes indeed you can use the RP06 images "bits as is". As long as
> the disk image is exactly an RP06 (the only size supported that I
> can see by P11) nothing more need be done. In fact that's how I
> switched over from 'sim_2.x' to 'p11' - I just made a copy of the
> disk image and hand crafted a p11conf file.
>
> Tapes need "conversion" because they have to contain information
> about record lengths and end of file markers. Disk images are
> a simple collection of bytes.
>
> Steven Schultz
> sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
>
>p.s. here's what I use for P11's conf file - perhaps it will be of use. The
> disk image "2.11BSD" is referenced on the line 'dev 0 ./2.11BSD 1999'
>
>--------------------p11conf------------------------
>set clock_rate 60
>
>ctrl rk 017777400 0220 5 4000
>end
>
>ctrl rl 017774400 0160 4 4000
>end
>
>ctrl rp 017776700 0254 5 4000
>dev 0 ./2.11BSD 1999
>dev 1 ./junk 1999
>end
>
>ctrl kl
>dev 017777560 060 064 4 tty_net -7 -t 10000
>dev 017776500 0300 0304 4 tty_net -7 -t 10001
>end
>
>ctrl mr 017777520 ./rp.boot
>end
>
>ctrl lp 017777514 0200 4
>end
>
>ctrl tm 017772520 0224 5
># dev 0 /tmp/foo
>end
>
>ctrl qna 017774440 5 0x08:0x00:0x2b:0x07:0x82:0x6c 0xf8:0x7a qna.rom
>dev epp_tun tun0 0x08:0x00:0x2b:0x07:0x82:0x6c 0x08:0x00:0x2b:0x07:0x82:0x00
>end
>
># The toy clock.
>#
>ctrl toy 017777526
>end
____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk
M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD Old computers and radios always welcome
Hi -
> From: Bill Gunshannon <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu>
> Maybe the Ultrix source would be a help in better understanding some
> of the internals of the hardware.
That could well be the case. Yes, the simulator is still being
worked on and maintained.
> My experience with Ultrix-11 up to this point would lead me to believe
> that it isn't bugs, but I can easily accept that it is overly picky.
>
> I tried RSTS. As a matter of fact, I used DSKINT to create my empty
> RP06 images. No sogn of a problem there.
Ah, ok. That tends to reinforce the thought that Ultrix may be
too picky about something.
> I would love to us the Begemot emulator. I have the latest version but
> I have been unable to get any of my disk images to work. Can anyone
> tell me if you can use the disk images from the other emulators and if
> so, how?? Do they have to be converted somehow like tapes??
Yes indeed you can use the RP06 images "bits as is". As long as
the disk image is exactly an RP06 (the only size supported that I
can see by P11) nothing more need be done. In fact that's how I
switched over from 'sim_2.x' to 'p11' - I just made a copy of the
disk image and hand crafted a p11conf file.
Tapes need "conversion" because they have to contain information
about record lengths and end of file markers. Disk images are
a simple collection of bytes.
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
p.s. here's what I use for P11's conf file - perhaps it will be of use. The
disk image "2.11BSD" is referenced on the line 'dev 0 ./2.11BSD 1999'
--------------------p11conf------------------------
set clock_rate 60
ctrl rk 017777400 0220 5 4000
end
ctrl rl 017774400 0160 4 4000
end
ctrl rp 017776700 0254 5 4000
dev 0 ./2.11BSD 1999
dev 1 ./junk 1999
end
ctrl kl
dev 017777560 060 064 4 tty_net -7 -t 10000
dev 017776500 0300 0304 4 tty_net -7 -t 10001
end
ctrl mr 017777520 ./rp.boot
end
ctrl lp 017777514 0200 4
end
ctrl tm 017772520 0224 5
# dev 0 /tmp/foo
end
ctrl qna 017774440 5 0x08:0x00:0x2b:0x07:0x82:0x6c 0xf8:0x7a qna.rom
dev epp_tun tun0 0x08:0x00:0x2b:0x07:0x82:0x6c 0x08:0x00:0x2b:0x07:0x82:0x00
end
# The toy clock.
#
ctrl toy 017777526
end
The Ultrix-11 saga continues but some progress is being made.
Has anyone run into a problem with stray interupts when using RP type
disks with the Supnik emulator?? While I am not sure they cause any
real problem, they are an annoyance and do clutter up the console
terminal. May need to figure out how to come up with a remote TTY
and start doing my work (especially kermiting) from there.
In the meantime, I hope to have a full Ultrix-11 development system
running in the next day or so. That means building all the pieces
needed for a split I&D system.
And now for the obligatory question:
When I tried run Ultrix-11 on my 11/93 I got a message that said:
"Unknown processor. enter CPU type in R0 and continue at your own risk."
Anyone know where I might find these magical numbers?? I figure if I
lie and tell him it's a 73 it should at least run. Yes?? No??
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill(a)cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Fri Feb 23 09:15:00 2001
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: Re: [pups] Stray Interupts
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from Bill Gunshannon at "Feb 22, 2001 03:02:36 pm"
To: Bill Gunshannon <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu>
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:15:00 +1100 (EST)
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In article by Bill Gunshannon:
>
> Has anyone run into a problem with stray interupts when using RP type
> disks with the Supnik emulator?? While I am not sure they cause any
> real problem, they are an annoyance and do clutter up the console
> terminal. May need to figure out how to come up with a remote TTY
> and start doing my work (especially kermiting) from there.
Are the stray interrupts being reported by the Ultrix kernel or the
simulator itself. If the latter, you can always edit out the offending
printfs.
Cheers,
Warren
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>From Bill Gunshannon <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu> Fri Feb 23 11:49:48 2001
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Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 20:49:48 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Gunshannon <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu>
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au
cc: PUPS Mailing List <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: [pups] Stray Interupts
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On Fri, 23 Feb 2001, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by Bill Gunshannon:
> >
> > Has anyone run into a problem with stray interupts when using RP type
> > disks with the Supnik emulator?? While I am not sure they cause any
> > real problem, they are an annoyance and do clutter up the console
> > terminal. May need to figure out how to come up with a remote TTY
> > and start doing my work (especially kermiting) from there.
>
> Are the stray interrupts being reported by the Ultrix kernel or the
> simulator itself. If the latter, you can always edit out the offending
> printfs.
Nope, these are from the Ultrix kernel. The message itself is put
out by the routine logsi() in errlog.c. The big question is, is this
a problem with Ultrix or is this a problem with emulator that just
gets ignored by the other OSes. I would be curious to know if there
is a similar function in 2.11?? If so, it would be interesting to
compare them and see why Ultrix sees all these stray interupts that
no one else sees.
All the best.
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill(a)cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Fri Feb 23 14:27:43 2001
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Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 20:27:43 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <200102230427.f1N4RhD19979(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Stray Interupts
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Hi --
> From: Bill Gunshannon <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu>
> Nope, these are from the Ultrix kernel. The message itself is put
> out by the routine logsi() in errlog.c. The big question is, is this
That the messages are coming from Ultrix and not the simulator is
also is easily determined by grep'ing the simulator sources - no such
message string that I can see.
> a problem with Ultrix or is this a problem with emulator that just
> gets ignored by the other OSes. I would be curious to know if there
> is a similar function in 2.11?? If so, it would be interesting to
There's no direct counterpart to 'logsi' in 2.11BSD. The only 'stray
interrupt' messages 2.11 can produce all come out of networking drivers
(the LH/DH "IMP" driver if_acc for example).
The "big disk" support ('rp') was done though by Bob without access
to a real honest to DEC RP11 controller. I think he looked at various
driver sources and perhaps at 2.11's "xp" driver (I vaguely recall
sending him the xp.c and necessary include files).
> compare them and see why Ultrix sees all these stray interupts that
> no one else sees.
Various things suggest themself to me: It might just be that Ultrix is
overly picky, there's something not 100% accurate in the simulator's
delivering interrupts or Ultrix-11 has a bug.
I haven't heard of RT-11 having a problem - perhaps someone could
try that and see what happens.
The other thing you might try is the Begemot emulator "p11". It
keeps _vastly_ better time than 'sim_2.3d' and has an emulated DEQNA
so the machine can be placed on a network. P11's also quite a bit
more efficient/fast. Configuration can be puzzling but sample
config files are available (from various PUPS folks who run P11).
Steven Schultz
sms(a)Moe.2bsd.com
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Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 08:43:41 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Gunshannon <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Stray Interupts
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On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> The "big disk" support ('rp') was done though by Bob without access
> to a real honest to DEC RP11 controller. I think he looked at various
> driver sources and perhaps at 2.11's "xp" driver (I vaguely recall
> sending him the xp.c and necessary include files).
Does Bob (or anybody for that matter) still maintain the emulator??
Maybe the Ultrix source would be a help in better understanding some
of the internals of the hardware.
>
> > compare them and see why Ultrix sees all these stray interupts that
> > no one else sees.
>
> Various things suggest themself to me: It might just be that Ultrix is
> overly picky, there's something not 100% accurate in the simulator's
> delivering interrupts or Ultrix-11 has a bug.
My experience with Ultrix-11 up to this point would lead me to believe
that it isn't bugs, but I can easily accept that it is overly picky.
That's why I thought the sources might be a big help in tuning the
emulator.
>
> I haven't heard of RT-11 having a problem - perhaps someone could
> try that and see what happens.
I tried RSTS. As a matter of fact, I used DSKINT to create my empty
RP06 images. No sogn of a problem there.
>
> The other thing you might try is the Begemot emulator "p11". It
> keeps _vastly_ better time than 'sim_2.3d' and has an emulated DEQNA
I am using 2.5a of the Supnik emulator.
> so the machine can be placed on a network. P11's also quite a bit
> more efficient/fast. Configuration can be puzzling but sample
> config files are available (from various PUPS folks who run P11).
I would love to us the Begemot emulator. I have the latest version but
I have been unable to get any of my disk images to work. Can anyone
tell me if you can use the disk images from the other emulators and if
so, how?? Do they have to be converted somehow like tapes??
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill(a)cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
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>From Lars Brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Sat Feb 24 00:59:02 2001
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Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Stray Interupts
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102230834350.12446-100000(a)triangle.cs.uofs.edu>
From: Lars Brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org>
Organization: nocrew
Date: 23 Feb 2001 15:59:02 +0100
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Bill Gunshannon <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu> writes:
> On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> > The "big disk" support ('rp') was done though by Bob without access
> > to a real honest to DEC RP11 controller. I think he looked at various
> > driver sources and perhaps at 2.11's "xp" driver (I vaguely recall
> > sending him the xp.c and necessary include files).
> Does Bob (or anybody for that matter) still maintain the emulator??
Version 2.5a was released on January 1, and Bob recently asked me
to update a pointer to his simulator web page, so I'd say he does.
--
http://lars.nocrew.org/
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sat Feb 24 02:42:52 2001
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Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 08:42:52 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <200102231642.f1NGgqP08664(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Stray Interupts
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Hi -
> From: Lars Brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org>
>
> Version 2.5a was released on January 1, and Bob recently asked me
> to update a pointer to his simulator web page, so I'd say he does.
That shows how long it has been since I ran that simulator ;-)
I'll pull it in just to have the latest version around to test with.
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
Dear All,
I have a Dilog TS11 controller but no TSV05 or TS11 drive. Has anyone got such
a thing in the UK that they would be willing to part with, sell, swap or
whatever. Ideally I would like one of the Dilog 880 drives with the
free-standing, i.e., not rack mounting, cabinet.
Regards
Robin
> From owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Wed Feb 21 09:46 PST 2001
> Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:29:48 -0500 (EST)
> From: Bill Gunshannon <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu>
> To: PUPS Mailing List <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
> Subject: [pups] creating disk images
>
> I know it is probably simple, but my experience is with the real
> thing and this is the first time I have tried to do anything but
> play with one of the emulators.
>
> How do you create new blank disk images for the Supnik emulator??
> In particular, I am trying to create some RM03's to give me more
> room to work with Ultrix-11. I am trying to make some install
> kits on different media so that more people will be able to get
> it, not only on emulators, but also on real machines, where it
> is much more fun. :-)
I have done it with
dd if=/dev/zero of=newdisk.dsk bs=1k count=10240
to make 10MB RL02 images. Followed by the lightly-documented
step in the Supnik emulator of attaching the disk image and writing
the badblock table. Followed by (for RT11) INIT/NOQ DL1
Corresponding for a Unix system would be mkfs(8) or newfs(8),
whichever you have.
I think it is only the RL disks that need the badblock step.
carl
--
carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego
{decvax|ucbvax} !ucsd!mpl!cdl cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu
clowenstein(a)ucsd.edu
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Feb 22 10:34:08 2001
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Subject: [pups] Re: V6 image for 11/23
In-Reply-To: <3A940637.83A0591B(a)tampabay.rr.com> from Ken Wellsch at "Feb 21,
2001 01:17:27 pm"
To: Ken Wellsch <kwellsch(a)tampabay.rr.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 11:34:08 +1100 (EST)
CC: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
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In article by Ken Wellsch:
> My part was one of deciphering what came off an old 800 BPI
> mag tape a decade ago and caring about preserving this bit of the past.
>
> [Thanks go to those] who handed me the tape from the
> Computer Graphics Lab at U of Waterloo (and the CGL folks for hanging
> onto the tape in their library) to folks like Alan Bowler who kindly
> pulled a raw image of the tape off on our old Honeywell system because
> all our UNIX systems did not support 800 BPI on their tape drives any
> more...
> -- Ken
Ken, if this image isn't already in the archive, can you send it in?
Thanks,
Warren
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Hi all,
Bill Gunshannon has sent me his Ultrix-3.1 disk images, and they
are now in the UNIX Archive at PDP-11/Boot_Images/Ultrix-3.1. I've knocked
up a short README from his e-mails too.
Cheers,
Warren
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>From "Ian King" <iking(a)microsoft.com> Wed Feb 21 15:37:43 2001
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Subject: [pups] VTServer 2.0 - Note from the Field
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:37:43 -0800
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Thread-Topic: [pups] Ultrix bootable disk images in UNIX Archive
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From: "Ian King" <iking(a)microsoft.com>
To: <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>,
"PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
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(envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)
>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Feb 21 15:59:26 2001
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: Re: [pups] VTServer 2.0 - Note from the Field
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from Ian King at "Feb 20, 2001 09:37:43 pm"
To: Ian King <iking(a)microsoft.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 16:59:26 +1100 (EST)
CC: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
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In article by Ian King:
[ some strange Microsoft e-mail format, Ian can you send
plain ASCII next time, ta! ]
> A couple of notes about this:
> * With a real PDP-11, I found it necessary to use the stty command
> for no hardware handshaking. On Linux 2.2 and using COM1, it's:
>
> stty 9600 cs8 clocal -crtscts < /dev/ttyS0
>
> * I think .vtrc may have changed from the earlier version; I tried
> to just hack a copy of the old one and found the format had changed.
> The first line is the shell command to set the device parameters (as set
> forth above), the second line is the device itself (e.g. /dev/ttyS0),
> and the following lines are the "tape" records. Warren, may I suggest
> adding some text to the readme about this? I had to figure it out....
Yep, that's documented in
http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Vtserver/vtserver/vtreadme.txt as follows:
The file .vtrc is the server's configuration file. Lines beginning with
hashes are ignored. The first (non-hashed) gives a shell command to set the
correct speed and parity of the serial line. The second line names the
serial device. Remaining lines name the fictitious tape's records, and
should be tinyboot, copy, and the name of your disk image.
> * It's not extremely clear from the readme, but start VTServer
> first, then the PDP-11 code. It wasn't that hard to key in with the
> programmer's panel. :-)
Thanks, can you suggest changes to the above document which would help
to clarify this?
Also, Fred van Kempen has added commands to send down the bootstrap
code if the PDP-11 has ODT. I'll add this to the server once I get the
code from Fred.
> Please don't get me wrong, I'm grateful that you wrote this and not me.
> :-) But you did ask for feedback, and I'm sending this to the PUPS list
> with the hope it will help anyone else with a similar situation.
Thanks Ian, yes I'm always happy for feedback. You might also try the
two Ultrix RL02 images that Bill Gunshannon also donated to the archive,
as he booted these on an 11/23 ok.
Cheers,
Warren
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>From Bill Gunshannon <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu> Thu Feb 22 03:29:48 2001
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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:29:48 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Gunshannon <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu>
To: PUPS Mailing List <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: [pups] creating disk images
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I know it is probably simple, but my experience is with the real
thing and this is the first time I have tried to do anything but
play with one of the emulators.
How do you create new blank disk images for the Supnik emulator??
In particular, I am trying to create some RM03's to give me more
room to work with Ultrix-11. I am trying to make some install
kits on different media so that more people will be able to get
it, not only on emulators, but also on real machines, where it
is much more fun. :-)
I have tried using the empty files the emulator creates. I have
tried dd'ing /dev/zero into a file to the size of the disk. I
have tried using format from xxdp. Nothing seems to work. Is there
a specific procedure to follow??
Any help greatly appreciated.
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill(a)cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
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>From "Ian King" <iking(a)microsoft.com> Thu Feb 22 03:58:58 2001
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Subject: RE: [pups] VTServer 2.0 - Note from the Field
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:58:58 -0800
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Thread-Topic: [pups] VTServer 2.0 - Note from the Field
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From: "Ian King" <iking(a)microsoft.com>
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Cc: "PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Further good news: it boots! I have a V6 image from Ken Wellsch
(thanks, Ken) booting on my 11/34. Now I have lots to figure out....
-- Ian
PS: Warren, I was mailing from the Web access client, so it was probably
HTML - sorry.
-----Original Message-----
From: Warren Toomey [mailto:wkt@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au]
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 9:59 PM
To: Ian King
Cc: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society
Subject: Re: [pups] VTServer 2.0 - Note from the Field
In article by Ian King:
[ some strange Microsoft e-mail format, Ian can you send
plain ASCII next time, ta! ]
> A couple of notes about this:
> * With a real PDP-11, I found it necessary to use the stty command
> for no hardware handshaking. On Linux 2.2 and using COM1, it's:
>
> stty 9600 cs8 clocal -crtscts < /dev/ttyS0
>
> * I think .vtrc may have changed from the earlier version; I tried
> to just hack a copy of the old one and found the format had changed.
> The first line is the shell command to set the device parameters (as
set
> forth above), the second line is the device itself (e.g. /dev/ttyS0),
> and the following lines are the "tape" records. Warren, may I suggest
> adding some text to the readme about this? I had to figure it out....
Yep, that's documented in
http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Vtserver/vtserver/vtreadme.txt as follows:
The file .vtrc is the server's configuration file. Lines beginning
with
hashes are ignored. The first (non-hashed) gives a shell command to
set the
correct speed and parity of the serial line. The second line names
the
serial device. Remaining lines name the fictitious tape's records,
and
should be tinyboot, copy, and the name of your disk image.
> * It's not extremely clear from the readme, but start VTServer
> first, then the PDP-11 code. It wasn't that hard to key in with the
> programmer's panel. :-)
Thanks, can you suggest changes to the above document which would help
to clarify this?
Also, Fred van Kempen has added commands to send down the bootstrap
code if the PDP-11 has ODT. I'll add this to the server once I get the
code from Fred.
> Please don't get me wrong, I'm grateful that you wrote this and not
me.
> :-) But you did ask for feedback, and I'm sending this to the PUPS
list
> with the hope it will help anyone else with a similar situation.
Thanks Ian, yes I'm always happy for feedback. You might also try the
two Ultrix RL02 images that Bill Gunshannon also donated to the archive,
as he booted these on an 11/23 ok.
Cheers,
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey [mailto:wkt@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au] Thu Feb 22 04:17:27 2001
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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 13:17:27 -0500
From: Ken Wellsch <kwellsch(a)tampabay.rr.com>
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To: Ian King <iking(a)microsoft.com>
CC: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au,
PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: [pups] VTServer 2.0 - Note from the Field
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Ian King wrote:
>
> Further good news: it boots! I have a V6 image from Ken Wellsch
> (thanks, Ken) booting on my 11/34. Now I have lots to figure out....
> -- Ian
>
> PS: Warren, I was mailing from the Web access client, so it was probably
> HTML - sorry.
I likely come across as an arrogant SOB - I hardly deserve credit for
the image. My part was one of deciphering what came off an old 800 BPI
mag tape a decade ago and caring about preserving this bit of the past.
Folks you don't know like Ian! Allen who handed me the tape from the
Computer Graphics Lab at U of Waterloo (and the CGL folks for hanging
onto the tape in their library) to folks like Alan Bowler who kindly
pulled a raw image of the tape off on our old Honeywell system because
all our UNIX systems did not support 800 BPI on their tape drives any
more...
Those are just some of the people that preceded that image - not even
mentioning the folks that brought you V6 in the first place...
Then afterward folks like Warren for tirelessly making PUPS happen...
Cheers,
-- Ken
> From owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Sat Feb 17 18:54 PST 2001
> X-Authentication-Warning: triangle.cs.uofs.edu: bill owned process doing -bs
> Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 21:43:51 -0500 (EST)
> From: Bill Gunshannon <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu>
> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
> Subject: Re: [pups] What is a 21-21858 chip?
> MIME-Version: 1.0
>
>
> Maybe I'm just misunderstanding what is being discussed here, but
> I think the difference is that without the FP11 all you have are
> 4 simple Floating Point Instructions. FADD, FSUB, FMUL and FDIV.
> The FP11 adds a number of additional Instructions. I have never
> had a machine with the FP11 (Hmmmm, wonder if my new 11/93 has it?)
> so I don't know them off the top of my head, but my Macro-11 book
> is near at hand if anybody wants me to look it up.
You're missing something. The FADD FSUB FMUL FDIV was first used in
the 11/40 FIS (optional) floating-point instruction set. It was later
implemented as an optional chip add-on for the LSI-11 and LSI-11/2.
Single-precision only, and stack oriented.
The 11/45 Floating-point Processor had about 30 instructions and had both
single-precision and double-precision modes, and a bunch of registers.
Typical instruction mnemonics include ADDF SUBF MULF DIVF MODF and
the same with last character changed to D for Double.
The LSI-11/23 optional FP chip followed the 11/45 FPP style. The 11/73
CPU chip implemented the 11/45 FPP in microcode, and the 11/73 FPP
add-on implemented the 11/45 FPP in much faster microcode.
carl
