TUHS

tuhs@tuhs.org

46 participants
6502 discussions

by SHOPPA＠trailing-edge.com

>we are looking for someone with access to a working 8" DSDD floppy >disk drive, presumably running RT or RSX on the PDP system. This is >to retrieve some very interesting historic material regarding the >Internet. As some of you may know, the IMP's in the 1980s, or fuzzball >systems, were running PDPs. You need more than just the drive - you need a compatible controller. While most floppy systems were DEC-compatible in SSSD and SSDD modes (RX01 and RX02), the DEC RX03 (DSDD) was never released and as a result there are literally dozens of not-quite-compatible DSDD floppy systems. When the low-level format agrees, you'll discover that the interleaving doesn't! (And there are a lot more choices with regards to interleaving when you've got two sides...) If you can clue us in as to the make and model of the writing controller, it'd help a lot. >The actual floppies to be read are in Delaware, anyone close there >would be a big bonus. I'm sure I've got a couple dozen not-quite-compatible DSDD systems here in DC :-). Tim.

23 years, 6 months

[pups] Searching for 8" DSDD drive

by Joerg Micheel

Hi PDP owners, we are looking for someone with access to a working 8" DSDD floppy disk drive, presumably running RT or RSX on the PDP system. This is to retrieve some very interesting historic material regarding the Internet. As some of you may know, the IMP's in the 1980s, or fuzzball systems, were running PDPs. The actual floppies to be read are in Delaware, anyone close there would be a big bonus. Thank you. Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)cs.waikato.ac.nz> WAND and NLANR MOAT Email: <joerg(a)nlanr.net> The University of Waikato, CompScience Phone: +64 7 8384794 Private Bag 3105 Fax: +64 7 8585095 Hamilton, New Zealand Plan: PMA, TINE and the DAG's

23 years, 6 months

[pups] Trouble with 2.11BSD and CQD-220

by Chuck Dickman

I have a QBus SCSI disk controller (Horray!) and it is working fine. Except... I cannot get it to boot directly from the SCSI drive. More detail.... The processor is an 11/73 and the SCSI controller is a CMD CQD-220 with a Fujitsu 220MB drive. The CQD-220 is set as the primary MSCP controller and an RQDX3 with an RX50 drive as the secondary MSCP controller. I have placed rauboot from 2.11BSD on the SCSI drive and on a floppy. I can boot fine from the floppy, but not from the SCSI drive. The floppy loads boot and then from there .: ra(0,0,0)unix boots unix from the SCSI drive. When booting from the SCSI drive, the boot sector is loaded into memory and then relocated. It hangs waiting for the MSCP controller to respond. I have not diagnosed it to the command that hangs. Is anybody else booting 2.11BSD directly from a drive attached to a CQD-220? -chuck

23 years, 6 months

[pups] Re: PUPS digest, Vol 1 #5 - 3 msgs

by Jay Jaeger

Bill Gunshannon wrote: > What are the odds that a 15 year old tape is even readable today?? I know > when I found the original BSD tapes here even with their being stored in the > computer room, they were unreadable. You might be surprised. PUPS has Mini-Unix because I was able to read a 15 year old tape a few years back. I can still read a copy of the V6 distribution that was made in the late 1970's. Recently I read thru all the 9 track tapes I had, and only one of them had errors. Many were well over 10 years old. And Paul Pierce managed to put together a usable image of the IBM PR155 O/S for the IBM 1410 by reading 2 7 track tapes that were pushing 30. Jay Jaeger --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection cube1(a)home.com visit http://members.home.net/thecomputercollection

23 years, 6 months

[pups] Scanning old Unix manuals in

by Warren Toomey

In article by martin lovick: > Hi, > > I've read the FAQ and it mentioned the earlier versions of the [Unix manuals] > being scanned and ocr'd..... Has any progress been made with this? > > regards > Martin Lovick Well, both Norman and I were going to do it. Because Dennis found the 3rd and 4th Edition manuals in electronic format, now we are only missing the 2nd and 5th Edition manuals. I made an abortive start before I left my job in July, and I haven't got back to it. So, no real progress at this stage. Warren

23 years, 6 months

Re: [pups] The Software Tools Virtual Operating System

by Bill Gunshannon

On Thu, 1 Nov 2001, David C. Jenner wrote: > Bill, > > I can assure you that what you were pointed to at the Ken Yap's Links > is what you are seeking. It may not be the final version, but it is > essentially what I received on a tape 20 years ago. There's even some > later material circa 1983, which postdated what I had, in the "Toys" file. Hmmmm. I'm beginning to think as it neared the end and interest trailed off much of the work did not get rolled back in to the base distribution. My last experience was around 84-85 and it was a package from GA Tech that ranon the Prime 50 series minis. It was alot like using Eunice on a VAX/VMS system. A quick scan of the stuff from Ken Yap found no mention of a number of systems that were known to exist by that time. No PDP-11, no Prime, some mention of the VAX, no mention of Unix (don't ask me why, but the VOS was ported to Unix!!). I guess what I need to do is see what systems are supported in what I have and try to get a system up again to check out. > > I probably still have the tape, but, it's 20 years old, hasn't been > used for at least 15 years, who knows what condition it's in, and it's > not much different than the content on the Web. What are the odds that a 15 year old tape is even readable today?? I know when I found the original BSD tapes here even with their being stored in the computer room, they were unreadable. > > You must realize, I guess, that you aren't getting a complete operating > system when you speak of STVOS, but just a ratfor translator and sources > for lots of Unix-like utilities. And primitives to translate between the host OS and the VOS API. > You need to supply a Fortran compiler > and operating system on which to build this. And many were supported. I was hoping to find enough of them to have a good example of what problems were run into doing the ports. Can go a long way in helping with other porting efforts. And because the API is very Unix-like it offers some intersting possibilities for expansion. > The idea was to make a > highly-portable set of software development tools and utilities that > could be ported and used across many OSes, thus making what you develop > available across many OSes. There is no OS (i.e., resource management, > file system, etc.) included. True. But a common API with hooks into a number of very different OSes. > > What you refer to in your emails about VOS bears little resemblance > to the STVOS, because STVOS wasn't an OS. Probably depends on your definition of OS. It was an ambitious project at the time and an idea whose time may just now be coming into vogue. > Today's VOSes, like a Java > machine, are at least one step beyond the STVOS. Again, I am not sure I agree. To me the Java VM is just the UCSD P-machine warmed over. One of the reasons things like the P-Machine and VOSes didn't fly 20 years ago was performance. We were trying to wring every last bit (no pun intended!) of performance out of our hardware. We frequently still did a lot of our programming in assembler (I was doing things like Prime 50-series and Univac-1100 assembler and almost anything on a micro was either complete or heavily laced with assembler, LSI-11, Z80, M68K.) Today, for all intents and purposes we have cpu cycles to burn. Look at the popularity of hardware emulators. E11, Charon VAX, SIMH. And people talking about how these emulators outperform the real hardware and could easily be used as production systems. Maybe it's time to look into reviving some of these ideas, but hopefully, not with a return to the beginning and a total re- invention of the wheel. > > You might want to establish what the final date of release of STVOS > was to determine what the final version was. As I recall, it wasn't > too much later than 1981. (The Toys tape is 1983.) Somewhere I have > a pile of old newsletters that would have the answer, but they're > boxed away in storage. I won't be able to dig for them for another > month. I know the Prime version was still available until the mid 80's. but much of this may have been independant work as STUG may have already faded into the background. I guess the thing that bothers me the most is not wether or not this can be turned into something usable, but the fact that what was an impressive work for the time it was done has been allowed to all but disappear. Maybe I'm getting maudlin in my old age. :-) I appreciate everyone's help and as I said previously, it makes me appreciate even more the work of Warren and PUPS and Tim Shoppa as well. All the best. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill(a)cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>

23 years, 6 months

Re: [pups] The Software Tools Virtual Operating System

by SHOPPA＠trailing-edge.com

>> ftp://ftp.trailing-edge.com/pub/rsx11freewarev2/rsx81a/ > Thanks for the pointer. I was aware of the RSX version that was contained >in the DECUS library. But there really was quite a bit more to the whole >distribution than that. Can you educate us about what is missing? If you can clue me in as to a specific file name or a specific text string that might be in a missing file, I'll gladly search through the few tens of gigabytes of images I've got here. Tim.

23 years, 6 months

RE: [TUHS] Disk Drivers

by Ian King

I can speak to the v6 stuff, and I think the same applies to the v7 stuff: the bootable image rkunix is intended to allow you to get a system booted from an RK05 (on which you've presumably installed this image), so that you can rebuild the system to suit your hardware. There is some special stuff in v6 for the PDP-40, so presumably the rkunix.40 image addresses that. The 'unix' image is the image one customarily boots to use the system; it's probably the image from the system on which the image was originally built all those years ago, and is intended to be replaced by your new image. Presumably, the drivers in that image might be identified if the c.c and l.c files are still present in /usr/sys. I don't know whether Bob Supnik actually built these images, or (as I suspect) included them from e.g. the PUPS site. Regarding the v7 stuff, I think you'll find considerable information in the v7 setup docs on the PUPS website, as to which corresponds to what drives (although it's somewhat self-explanatory). Hope that's helpful -- Ian -----Original Message----- From: Matthew Whitehead [mailto:matthew.whitehead@apple.com] Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 12:59 PM To: TUHS(a)minnie.tuhs.org Subject: [TUHS] Disk Drivers I'm getting a tad frustrated with the otherwise excellent Supnik PDP-11 emulators. Can anyone tell me (or give me the adb commands to figure it out myself) what disk device drivers are present in the bootable disk images that come with the Supnik simulator? The versions I'm interested are: V6 image: - rkunix (rk) - rkunix.40 (rk, PDP-11/40 cpu?) - unix V7 image: - hphtunix (hp) - hptmunix (hp) - rkunix (rk) - rl2unix (obviously hacked to include rl driver) - rphtunix (rp) - rptmunix (rp) Matthew (mrw(a)apple.com) _______________________________________________ TUHS mailing list TUHS(a)minnie.tuhs.org http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

23 years, 6 months

[pups] [TUHS] Disk Drivers (fwd)

by Warren Toomey

[Forwarded to the PUPS list, as this is PDP-11 specific - Warren] Your best bets are: - Use nm on the kernel if it hasn't been stripped - Or go to /usr/sys/conf if you have the sources, and look at the config files for each kernel, e.g rptmunix came from rptmconf, which has: rp root rp 1 swap rp 2 swplo 0 nswap 2000 tm Cheers, Warren ----- Forwarded message from Matthew Whitehead ----- From: Matthew Whitehead <matthew.whitehead(a)apple.com> Subject: [TUHS] Disk Drivers Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 12:58:54 -0800 I'm getting a tad frustrated with the otherwise excellent Supnik PDP-11 emulators. Can anyone tell me (or give me the adb commands to figure it out myself) what disk device drivers are present in the bootable disk images that come with the Supnik simulator? The versions I'm interested are: V6 image: - rkunix (rk) - rkunix.40 (rk, PDP-11/40 cpu?) - unix V7 image: - hphtunix (hp) - hptmunix (hp) - rkunix (rk) - rl2unix (obviously hacked to include rl driver) - rphtunix (rp) - rptmunix (rp) Matthew (mrw(a)apple.com) ----- End of forwarded message from Matthew Whitehead -----

23 years, 6 months

Disk Drivers

by Matthew Whitehead

I'm getting a tad frustrated with the otherwise excellent Supnik PDP-11 emulators. Can anyone tell me (or give me the adb commands to figure it out myself) what disk device drivers are present in the bootable disk images that come with the Supnik simulator? The versions I'm interested are: V6 image: - rkunix (rk) - rkunix.40 (rk, PDP-11/40 cpu?) - unix V7 image: - hphtunix (hp) - hptmunix (hp) - rkunix (rk) - rl2unix (obviously hacked to include rl driver) - rphtunix (rp) - rptmunix (rp) Matthew (mrw(a)apple.com)

23 years, 6 months

Re: [pups] The Software Tools Virtual Operating System

by SHOPPA＠trailing-edge.com

>I know this is somewhat off topic, but there is a connection. > >I am trying to track down a copy of the distribution of: > The Software Tools Virtual Operating System > >The last known repository of the complete system was apparently USENIX. >They have been unable to find a copy anywhere up to this point, so I'm >asking here as there must be many long time members in this group. > >Does anyone still have a copy of this and could I possibly get it?? >I really need to find a copy for a project I want to work on. Point yourself towards ftp://ftp.trailing-edge.com/pub/rsx11freewarev2/rsx81a/ In the 30703* directories you will find: [307,30] TOOLGEN.CMD, the command file for building the LBL Software Tools Virtual Operating System. The release notes for the VOS are also contained in this UIC. [307,31] Fortran and macro sources for VOS. [307,32] Manual entries for VOS utilities. [307,33] Ratfor source files for VOS utilities. [307,34] Source files for variable-length send/receive driver. [307,35] Source files for virtual aether driver. Tim.

23 years, 6 months

[pups] The Software Tools Virtual Operating System

by Bill Gunshannon

I know this is somewhat off topic, but there is a connection. I am trying to track down a copy of the distribution of: The Software Tools Virtual Operating System The last known repository of the complete system was apparently USENIX. They have been unable to find a copy anywhere up to this point, so I'm asking here as there must be many long time members in this group. Does anyone still have a copy of this and could I possibly get it?? I really need to find a copy for a project I want to work on. Any help would be greatly appreciated. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill(a)cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>

23 years, 6 months

Re: Obtaining Ancient Licenses from Caldera

by Warren Toomey

In article by Jonathan Engdahl: > I sold a PDP-11/23 with 2.9BSD on it, and directed the buyer to the Caldera > page below. The license page is there, but when you click "accept", the link > is broken. Both he and I emailed Caldera about the problem. We'll see what > happens. > > Is there any backup plan for licensing if Caldera doesn't come through? Yes, just go to http://www.tuhs.org/archive_access.html, I've given up on referrals from SCO or Caldera for now. Warren

23 years, 6 months

[pups] Re: Free UNIX licenses

by Warren Toomey

In article by Jonathan Engdahl: > It looks like the SCO free UNIX license page moved: > http://shop.caldera.com/caldera/ancient.html > > I hope Caldera continues the free license policy. Thanks for the heads-up Johnathan. It looks like the license is unchanged, so for now we're ok. But I should contact someone there & see if we can open it up a bit more :) Warren

23 years, 7 months

[PUPS] Change of PUPS Mail-list software

by Warren Toomey

All, I'm thinking of switching from Majordomo to Mailman for the mailing lists run on minnie.tuhs.org. I thought I'd try it out on the PUPS mailing list to start with, because it is so quiet, and also to maybe get some postings going again. Mailman has several advantages: - list archives are created and have a web interface - subscribers can easily change their details - list management can also be done via the web. You can go to http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups to use the web interface to change your subscription. If things don't seem to be working, please let me know at my e-mail address of wkt(a)tuhs.org Cheers, Warren

23 years, 7 months

[pups] KXJ11-CA / M7616 doc wanted.

by jkunz＠unixag-kl.fh-kl.de

Hi. I have this nice KXJ11-CA but I have no clue how to use it. I was able to get to the ODT prompt, but nothing else. I need pinouts, jumper descriptions, memory map (where are the EPROMs?), ... How to use that digital IO port? ... My idea is to use it in a my MicroVAX 4000-200 with the VAX as "frontend processor". So I would be able to run NetBSD/vax and perhaps 2.9BSD in the same box. -- tschüß, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/

23 years, 7 months

[pups] A 2nd http mirror of the Unix Archive

by Warren Toomey

All, Oleg Safiullin has set up a Unix Archive mirror outside of Australia. You can find it at: http://unix-archive.pdp11.org.ru He is using the same username & password list as www.tuhs.org is. Thanks to Oleg for setting this up. Warren P.S I do have a number of other people interested in setting up other mirrors. When I get back from this week's conference, I'll contact you all. Return-Path: <owner-pups(a)minnie.tuhs.org> Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.tuhs.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f8R5Wfi62530 for pups-liszt; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 15:32:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.tuhs.org) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by minnie.tuhs.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f8R5WbZ62518; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 15:32:37 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)minnie.tuhs.org> Message-Id: <200109270532.f8R5WbZ62518(a)minnie.tuhs.org> Subject: [pups] A 2nd http mirror of the Unix Archive To: tuhs(a)tuhs.org, pups(a)tuhs.org Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 15:32:37 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)tuhs.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL68 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.tuhs.org Precedence: bulk All, Oleg Safiullin has set up a Unix Archive mirror outside of Australia. You can find it at: http://unix-archive.pdp11.org.ru He is using the same username & password list as www.tuhs.org is. Thanks to Oleg for setting this up. Warren P.S I do have a number of other people interested in setting up other mirrors. When I get back from this week's conference, I'll contact you all.

23 years, 7 months

[pups] BSD 2.11 SL/IP and sim2.3d+BB1

by PUP

I know that there must be some setup guides for BSD2.11 still floating around there, but I have not been able to find anything.. Here is what I am trying to do: I noticed that the sim2.3d+BB1 emulator will allow you to connect Unix "devices" to the DL1 lines. I set it to connect the serial port on my Linux box, and connected a IBM 3151 (VT100 like terminal), and it worked great! Taking this a step further, I took the serial port and moved it to my Cisco router (the aux port).. I have been trying to configure SL/IP on it.. I first setup my Linux box to connect to the router via slip so that I can verify my cisco config. I am having trouble on the BSD side.. As far as I can tell it is not routing replys over the sl0 interface.. (Or the emulator is cooking the serial data...) A final test I tried to connect to copies of sim2.3d+BB1 via pty's.. same thing. The good part is when you try to telnet from the router, you can see the socket accept on the BSD side.. The BSD box seems not to reply.. Additionally I saw some stuff on increasing the size of CBLOCK in param.h (my default was 32, I tried 64), which seemed to have no effect. I started SL/IP by running slattach ttyl1 9600 then ifconfig sl0 10.1.1.1 10.1.1.2 up by default as this I can't ping the 10.1.1.1 (my side).. so I added a route route add 10.1.1.1 127.0.0.1 0 I don't know if I have to do this... Oh the image that I'm using is the 2.11_rp_unknown from the archive.. (It has a note that it is patch level 400.) Also the person that maintains BSD 2.11's site is down.. bummer.. Sorry for the rambling! Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.tuhs.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA96454 for pups-liszt; Thu, 17 May 2001 14:04:16 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu May 17 13:52:31 2001 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.tuhs.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA96450 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 17 May 2001 14:04:12 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f4H3qVx16950 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Wed, 16 May 2001 20:52:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 20:52:31 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200105170352.f4H3qVx16950(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] BSD 2.11 SL/IP and sim2.3d+BB1 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > From: PUP <jstevep(a)tron.superglobalmegacorp.com> I've taken the liberty of adding <\n> characters - something about 1k character lines bugs me ;) > I know that there must be some setup guides for BSD2.11 still floating > around there, but I have not been able to find anything.. Here is what I /usr/doc/2.10/setup.2.11 bit of a misnomer and it's a long enough story I won't bother anyone with the details. That's the raw troff sources though. If it's the formatted version that is wanted there should be a copy in the 2.11 portion of the PUPS/TUHS section of the archive. It shows up at PDP-11/Distributions/ucb/2.11BSD and there are also complete tarballs and a dump of the root filesystem all at rev level 431. It should be a simple matter of putting the bits on tape/disk (using the makesimtape or similar utility provided with the emulator being used). At that point the normal 2.11 installation process can be followed - there have only been 5 updates since then (432 thru 436) so catching up wouldn't be hard at all. > I noticed that the sim2.3d+BB1 emulator will allow you to connect Unix > "devices" to the DL1 lines. I set it to connect the serial port on my Linux > box, and connected a IBM 3151 (VT100 like terminal), and it worked great! Probably doing 7E1 and just about anything would work with that ;) > Taking this a step further, I took the serial port and moved it to my Cisco > router (the aux port).. I have been trying to configure SL/IP on it.. That'll definitely require a 'raw' or 8bit clean path and I don't know if the sim2.3d does that or not - never tried it. The stock sim2.3d doesn't appear to have extra serial line support - or if it does it isn't obvious. Perhaps that is what the BB1 part is about. > I first setup my Linux box to connect to the router via slip so that I can > verify my cisco config. I am having trouble on the BSD side.. As far as I > can tell it is not routing replys over the sl0 interface.. (Or the emulator > is cooking the serial data...) That's a real possibility. The 'slattach' command on the 11 side will take care of setting all the modes so that an 8bit path is obtained. If the emulator is stripping the parity bit (which wouldn't show up in the normal "hook a terminal up" test) then SL/IP will obviously have problems. You might have better luck with the Begemot emulator P11. No need for SL/IP since P11 has an emulated DEQNA ethernet driver. > A final test I tried to connect to copies of sim2.3d+BB1 via pty's.. same > thing. The good part is when you try to telnet from the router, you can see > the socket accept on the BSD side.. The BSD box seems not to reply.. > Additionally I saw some stuff on increasing the size of CBLOCK in param.h > (my default was 32, I tried 64), which seemed to have no effect. I'd not muck about with CBLOCK - it doesn't really buy much and from the sounds of things aren't getting anywhere near the conditions that comment was aimed at. > I started SL/IP by running > slattach ttyl1 9600 > then > ifconfig sl0 10.1.1.1 10.1.1.2 up That should be all that's necessary > by default as this I can't ping the 10.1.1.1 (my side).. so I added a route > > route add 10.1.1.1 127.0.0.1 0 > I don't know if I have to do this... You shouldn't have to do that because in /etc/netstart, if things are set up right you would have: slattach ttyl1 9600 ifconfig sl0 10.1.1.1 10.1.1.2 up route add $hostname localhost 0 route add default $default 1 So if 'hostname' and 'default' are set at the top of the file all the routing is all set to go. Just make sure that 'ifconfig sl0' happens before 'ifconfig lo0 ...'. Also, by default the C library is compiled to use DNS resolver routines so it will likely be necessary to use a combination of numeric IP addresses and entries in /etc/hosts > Oh the image that I'm using is the 2.11_rp_unknown from the archive.. > (It has a note that it is patch level 400.) That is fairly old, but SL/IP hasn't changed since the system came out eons ago. > Also the person that maintains BSD 2.11's site is down.. bummer.. It has _never_ been down except for a reboot the other day to install another 512MB of memory a week or so ago. With a 1400VA UPS the system can ride out most of the power problems California's having. If the FTP site here is unreachable you might try going to the mirror at FTP.TO.GD-ES.COM - all the updates are in /pub/2.11BSD Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.tuhs.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA96508 for pups-liszt; Thu, 17 May 2001 14:11:44 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu May 17 14:00:06 2001 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.tuhs.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA96503 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 17 May 2001 14:11:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.11.2/8.9.3) id f4H406m51958; Thu, 17 May 2001 14:00:06 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200105170400.f4H406m51958(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: [pups] BSD 2.11 SL/IP and sim2.3d+BB1 In-Reply-To: <200105170352.f4H3qVx16950(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "May 16, 2001 08:52:31 pm" To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 14:00:06 +1000 (EST) CC: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Reply-To: wkt(a)tuhs.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL68 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Steven M. Schultz: >> I noticed that the sim2.3d+BB1 emulator will allow you to connect Unix >> "devices" to the DL1 lines. I set it to connect the serial port on my Linux >> box, and connected a IBM 3151 (VT100 like terminal), and it worked great! > > Probably doing 7E1 and just about anything would work with that ;) > > > Taking this a step further, I took the serial port and moved it to my Cisco > > router (the aux port).. I have been trying to configure SL/IP on it.. > > That'll definitely require a 'raw' or 8bit clean path and I don't know > if the sim2.3d does that or not - never tried it. The stock sim2.3d > doesn't appear to have extra serial line support - or if it does it > isn't obvious. Perhaps that is what the BB1 part is about. I can confirm that sim2.3d is not 8-bit clean on output. I got bitten on this when working on Vtserver, and I tore my hair out for a whole day. 443c449 < if ((temp = sim_putchar (tto_unit.buf & 0177)) != SCPE_OK) return temp; --- > if ((temp = sim_putchar (tto_unit.buf)) != SCPE_OK) return temp; It is 8-bit clean on input. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.tuhs.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA97320 for pups-liszt; Thu, 17 May 2001 17:04:28 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From PUP <jstevep(a)tron.superglobalmegacorp.com> Thu May 17 17:37:56 2001 Received: from tron.superglobalmegacorp.com ([12.21.28.170]) by minnie.tuhs.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA97316 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 17 May 2001 17:04:24 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jstevep(a)tron.superglobalmegacorp.com) Received: (from jstevep@localhost) by tron.superglobalmegacorp.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f4H7buK16947 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Thu, 17 May 2001 02:37:56 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 02:37:56 -0500 (EST) From: PUP <jstevep(a)tron.superglobalmegacorp.com> Message-Id: <200105170737.f4H7buK16947(a)tron.superglobalmegacorp.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] BSD 2.11 SL/IP and sim2.3d+BB1 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Thanks for the pointer, I found the part you mentioned for the ASCII clean up and removed them from the DL11 and KL11 drivers, and noticed that I need to detect the 0 device so the console is usable =) but the big thing is that I telneted into the VM using slip ok!!!! Thanks again, I didn't know what to look for in the source (I was looking @ the other half in the attach stuff not I/O (doh!)) If you want/need I'll gladly diff mine out... Oh btw Steven, every time I try to ftp the site, I get connection closed.. It 's definatly "up" but I can't get to it.. does your site try to reverse lookup clients? if so, that's the issue.. I don't have reverse entries for dns. Thanks again!

24 years

[pups] John Wilson / DBit offline

by Fred N. van Kempen

Hi all, In case you're trying to get a hold of John Wilson, or were going to look at his web site... no go. Due to a fairly serious ISP, uhh, "issue", his machine died on him. I talked to him last night, and he was going to see if he could revive his (co-lo) machine, or would have to install a new one. Cheers, Fred -- Fred N. van Kempen Fred.van.Kempen(a)MicroWalt.NL Microsoft MCSE+I/MCSE/MCSD Compaq ASE/ACT UNIX Systems Programmer Cisco ACRC/CCDA/CCNA/SupportPro InterNetworking en Network Security Consultant MicroWalt Corporation (Netherlands), Korte Heul 95, 1403 ND BUSSUM Phone +31 (35) 6980059 FAX +31 (35) 6980215 http://WWW.MicroWalt.NL/ Dit bericht en eventuele bijlagen is uitsluitend bestemd voor de geadresseerde. Openbaarmaking, vermenigvuldiging, verspreiding aan derden is niet toegestaan. Er wordt geen verantwoordelijkheid genomen voor de juiste en volledige overbrenging van de inhoud van dit bericht, noch voor de tijdige ontvangst ervan.

24 years

[pups] Change of PUPS list address

by Warren Toomey

All, The machine which hosts the pups mailing list, minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au, is going to change its domain name in mid-July. To help alleviate any problems, I have taken out a separate domain, and have put in aliases to the current minnie address, and will migrate the aliases to the new address when the time comes. So, if possible could you send e-mail to the pups mailing list using the address pups(a)tuhs.org from now on. Thanks, Warren Toomey wkt(a)tuhs.org

24 years

[pups] missing V6 Docs

by Wolfgang Helbig

Hi, In "SETTING UP UNIX - Sixth Edition" some documents are mentioned that are not in the V6 distribution (v6doc in from Dennis or the corresponding part of the tape from Ken Wellsch). These are: (numbers from the cover page) 10. NROFF Users' Manual 12. A Manual for the Tmg compiler-writing Language 14. The M6 Macro Processor 15. A System for Typewriting Mathematics 16. DC - An interactive desk calculator Does anyone know, why these docs were not included in the distribution if they are somewhere on minnies disks? I am only searching for the V6 docs, not V7, where these files were distributed. Just curious. Wolfgang Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA60328 for pups-liszt; Wed, 2 May 2001 09:16:53 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Ian King" <iking(a)microsoft.com> Wed May 2 09:06:28 2001 Received: from mail5.microsoft.com (mail5.microsoft.com [131.107.3.121]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA60324 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 2 May 2001 09:16:49 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from iking(a)microsoft.com) Received: from 157.54.7.67 by mail5.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Tue, 01 May 2001 16:06:37 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Received: from red-msg-06.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.71]) by inet-imc-04.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2883); Tue, 1 May 2001 16:06:29 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.4688.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [pups] missing V6 Docs Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 16:06:28 -0700 Message-ID: <8D25F244B8274141B5D313CA4823F39C018EEE43(a)red-msg-06.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [pups] missing V6 Docs Thread-Index: AcDSkhyKhFEdVS1oROOZeiHhCJbMgAAALYgg From: "Ian King" <iking(a)microsoft.com> To: "Wolfgang Helbig" <helbig(a)Informatik.BA-Stuttgart.DE>, <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 May 2001 23:06:29.0285 (UTC) FILETIME=[5ADD4550:01C0D293] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au id JAA60325 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk I recall stumbling across them in an odd place in Ken Wellsch's distribution. I'll try to remember to look when I get home (it's on my PDP-11) and send another mail -- Ian -----Original Message----- From: Wolfgang Helbig [mailto:helbig@Informatik.BA-Stuttgart.DE] Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 3:19 PM To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: [pups] missing V6 Docs Hi, In "SETTING UP UNIX - Sixth Edition" some documents are mentioned that are not in the V6 distribution (v6doc in from Dennis or the corresponding part of the tape from Ken Wellsch). These are: (numbers from the cover page) 10. NROFF Users' Manual 12. A Manual for the Tmg compiler-writing Language 14. The M6 Macro Processor 15. A System for Typewriting Mathematics 16. DC - An interactive desk calculator Does anyone know, why these docs were not included in the distribution if they are somewhere on minnies disks? I am only searching for the V6 docs, not V7, where these files were distributed. Just curious. Wolfgang

24 years

Re: [pups] V6 and Supnik-simulator

by Wolfgang Helbig

Hi, Warren put the v6enb.tar.gz into http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/Archive/PDP-11/Bug_Fixes/V6enb/ Thank you, Warren! Besides some minor and rather unimportant changes to V6, this file contains README files, that try to explain how to install UNIX V6 on Bob Supnik's simulator from the tape file provided by Ken Wellsch. These setup instructions are aimed at the beginner level with regard to UNIX as well as to the simulator. The "bug fixes" are supplied as "diff -e" files on tp-formatted tape files, ready to be used by the simulator. Two simple ANSI-C programs are provided to insert (enblock) or remove (deblock) blocking information in tape files needed by Bob's simulator. Have fun, Wolfgang

24 years

[pups] Berkeley Pascal

by Lars J. Buitinck

I was browsing through the 2.11BSD docs on my OpenBSD PC, and I noticed I couldn't format the Pascal manuals. Can anybody format them for me in (if at all possible) PostScript format, or else plain TXT (with ^H_ and other more(1) hacks ofcourse)? I haven't got 2.11 to work in simh yet, otherwise I'd try it in 2.11. -- If I traveled to the end of the rainbow As Dame Fortune did intend, Murphy would be there to tell me The pot's at the other end. -- Bert Whitney Lars J. Buitinck

24 years

[pups] Dead RD54... heeelp!

by Fred N. van Kempen

All, My RD54 just died on me. It spins up, but, apparently, not all the way.. it does not make its usual calibration sound anymore. After this, the drive seems to be dead. Does this sound familiar? Is it the HDA or the electronics? (I have another RD54, perhaps I can exchange the electronics pcb's ?) --fred (__sigh__) -- Fred N. van Kempen Fred.van.Kempen(a)MicroWalt.NL Microsoft MCSE+I/MCSE/MCSD Compaq ASE/ACT UNIX Systems Programmer Cisco ACRC/CCDA/CCNA/SupportPro InterNetworking en Network Security Consultant MicroWalt Corporation (Netherlands), Korte Heul 95, 1403 ND BUSSUM Phone +31 (35) 6980059 FAX +31 (35) 6980215 http://WWW.MicroWalt.NL/ Dit bericht en eventuele bijlagen is uitsluitend bestemd voor de geadresseerde. Openbaarmaking, vermenigvuldiging, verspreiding aan derden is niet toegestaan. Er wordt geen verantwoordelijkheid genomen voor de juiste en volledige overbrenging van de inhoud van dit bericht, noch voor de tijdige ontvangst ervan.

24 years

[pups] Maximum PDP-11 executable size?

by Edward Brocklesby

Hi, I'm having problems compiling some large-ish programs on 2.11BSD, for example MH. Even when putting *everything* on overlays, I still get an error: [ejb@styx] ~/mh-6.8.4.orig/uip > /bin/ld -i -X -o xforw /lib/crt0.o -Z forw.o -Z whatnowproc.o -Z whatnowsbr.o -Z sendsbr.o -Z annosbr.o -Z distsbr.o -Z ../config/config.o -Z ../sbr/libmh.a -Z ../mts/libmts.a -Z ../zotnet/libzot.a -Z -lc -Z -lerrlst -Z ../config/version.o ld: too big for type 431 (problem 2: tsize = 0, ovrnd = 8192, dtotal = 0) [ejb@styx] ~/mh-6.8.4.orig/uip > is there any way around this, or is MH just too big to fix on a PDP? -larne- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA56896 for pups-liszt; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:01:25 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Fri Apr 20 09:47:22 2001 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA56892 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:01:20 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f3JNlMq22283 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 16:47:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 16:47:22 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200104192347.f3JNlMq22283(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] Maximum PDP-11 executable size? Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > From: Edward Brocklesby <ejb(a)leguin.org.uk> > I'm having problems compiling some large-ish programs on 2.11BSD, for example > MH. Even when putting *everything* on overlays, I still get an error: It has been eons and eons since I attempted MH and I can't remember if I gave up or finally got something to work (shows how long its been ;)). > [ejb@styx] ~/mh-6.8.4.orig/uip > /bin/ld -i -X -o xforw /lib/crt0.o -Z forw.o > -Z whatnowproc.o -Z whatnowsbr.o -Z sendsbr.o -Z annosbr.o -Z distsbr.o -Z > ../config/config.o -Z ../sbr/libmh.a -Z ../mts/libmts.a -Z ../zotnet/libzot.a > -Z -lc -Z -lerrlst -Z ../config/version.o > ld: too big for type 431 (problem 2: tsize = 0, ovrnd = 8192, dtotal = 0) > [ejb@styx] ~/mh-6.8.4.orig/uip > Hmmm, I grep'd the current source to 'ld' and couldn't find the message "problem 2: ...". I do remember that being present during the debugging of 'ld' when the long symbol names (the "string table" aka 4.3BSD a.out format) capability was being developed. That suggests that 'ld' might be out of date. The answer to the 'Maximum PDP-11 executable size?' question is fairly length and a bit involved ;). Assuming split I/D: Short answer: 120KB to 904KB Long answer: without overlays there is one 64KB code segment and one 56KB data segment giving 120KB for a non overlaid program. In practice if a program hits 56KB out of 'ld' then there's no room for malloc() and the program may link but it won't run ;( For overlaid programs there is still but one 56KB data segment (the top 8KB is for the stack) but now the code can be arranged differently: There is a maximum of 15 overlays and there can be no 'gaps' (zero length/empty overlays between populated overlays). BASE OVERLAYSIZE TOTALTEXT 8KB 56KB * 15 840KB 16KB 48KB * 15 736KB 24KB 40KB * 15 624KB 32KB 32KB * 15 512KB 40KB 24KB * 15 400KB 48KB 16KB * 15 288KB 56KB 8KB * 15 176KB In reality the kernel probably would choke on the first several cases, and even if it didn't that large of a program would cause severe swapping. Most overlaid programs on the system ('vi' for example) use either the base=48KB or base=56KB layout. I think 'kermit' might use the 40KB base segment. The "tsize" error would indicate that the code size summing had an overflow - that was a bug at one time and was later fixed, which again suggests that the 'ld' is out dated somehow. If 'ld' was able to create 'xforw' try doing a "size xforw" on it and seeing how far it got - perhaps a clue can be gathered that way. You may need to usually terminate the overlay list with a -Y - I don't believe it's "required" though. -Z -lc -Z -lerrlst -Y ../config/version.o > is there any way around this, or is MH just too big to fix on a PDP? Couple things to try. Use 'size' on the .o (and/or .a) files to see how big things are - add them up and see if things start overflowing 16 bits. There was an overflow bug in ld's size computations - it was fixed by using a 'long' in a couple places to detect wraparound. What version of 2.11 (should be in the first couple lines of /VERSION) are you using? Sure feels like 'ld' is old and having problems that were fixed later on. Steven Schultz sms(a)to.gd-es.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA57165 for pups-liszt; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:57:13 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Edward Brocklesby <ejb(a)leguin.org.uk> Fri Apr 20 10:48:19 2001 Received: from klamath.leguin.org.uk (pc62-oxf1.cable.ntl.com [62.254.132.62]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA57161 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:57:08 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from ejb(a)leguin.org.uk) Received: from klamath.leguin.org.uk (klamath [127.0.0.1]) by klamath.leguin.org.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id BAA17554; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 01:48:21 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: klamath.leguin.org.uk: Host klamath [127.0.0.1] claimed to be klamath.leguin.org.uk Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Edward Brocklesby <ejb(a)leguin.org.uk> Organization: Leguin Network Services To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] Maximum PDP-11 executable size? Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 01:48:19 +0100 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: <200104192347.f3JNlMq22283(a)moe.2bsd.com> In-Reply-To: <200104192347.f3JNlMq22283(a)moe.2bsd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01042001482004.00527(a)klamath.leguin.org.uk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Friday 20 April 2001 12:47 am, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > > [ejb@styx] ~/mh-6.8.4.orig/uip > /bin/ld -i -X -o xforw /lib/crt0.o -Z > > forw.o -Z whatnowproc.o -Z whatnowsbr.o -Z sendsbr.o -Z annosbr.o -Z > > distsbr.o -Z ../config/config.o -Z ../sbr/libmh.a -Z ../mts/libmts.a -Z > > ../zotnet/libzot.a -Z -lc -Z -lerrlst -Z ../config/version.o > > ld: too big for type 431 (problem 2: tsize = 0, ovrnd = 8192, dtotal = 0) > > [ejb@styx] ~/mh-6.8.4.orig/uip > > > Hmmm, I grep'd the current source to 'ld' and couldn't find the > message "problem 2: ...". I do remember that being present during That's something I added myself, to try to help with the problem.. > That suggests that 'ld' might be out of date. /VERSION says: Current Patch Level: 400 Date: January 24, 1998 That's what was on the PUPS FTP site.. > without overlays there is one 64KB code segment and one 56KB data > segment giving 120KB for a non overlaid program. In practice if a > program hits 56KB out of 'ld' then there's no room for malloc() and > the program may link but it won't run ;( > > For overlaid programs there is still but one 56KB data segment (the top > 8KB is for the stack) but now the code can be arranged differently: > > There is a maximum of 15 overlays and there can be no 'gaps' (zero > length/empty overlays between populated overlays). > > BASE OVERLAYSIZE TOTALTEXT > 8KB 56KB * 15 840KB > 16KB 48KB * 15 736KB > 24KB 40KB * 15 624KB > 32KB 32KB * 15 512KB > 40KB 24KB * 15 400KB > 48KB 16KB * 15 288KB > 56KB 8KB * 15 176KB > > In reality the kernel probably would choke on the first several cases, > and even if it didn't that large of a program would cause severe > swapping. > > Most overlaid programs on the system ('vi' for example) use either the > base=48KB or base=56KB layout. I think 'kermit' might use the 40KB > base segment. hm.. how do you specify the base segment size to ld? i don't see anything in the manual page. Just link enough code into the base that it becomes the right size? > The "tsize" error would indicate that the code size summing had an > overflow - that was a bug at one time and was later fixed, which > again suggests that the 'ld' is out dated somehow. possibly, i will look on the 2BSD patch archives now.. > If 'ld' was able to create 'xforw' try doing a "size xforw" on it > and seeing how far it got - perhaps a clue can be gathered that > way. text data bss dec hex 27648 35860 32412 95920 176b0 total text: 83072 overlays: 832,4352,2624,832,1920,29568,192,11008,4096 this particular link gave the error: ld: too big for type 431 (problem 2: tsize = 0, ovrnd = -32768, dtotal = 0) the negative ovrnd i find very strange- perhaps the wrapround bug? > You may need to usually terminate the overlay list with a -Y - I don't > believe it's "required" though. > > -Z -lc -Z -lerrlst -Y ../config/version.o nope.. this doesn't seem to help > > is there any way around this, or is MH just too big to fix on a PDP? > > Couple things to try. Use 'size' on the .o (and/or .a) files to > see how big things are - add them up and see if things start overflowing > 16 bits. There was an overflow bug in ld's size computations - it was > fixed by using a 'long' in a couple places to detect wraparound. Well, considering that there's a couple of *large* libraries here.. -rw-r--r-- 1 ejb 127074 Apr 9 14:47 ../zotnet/libzot.a -rw-r--r-- 1 ejb 102126 Apr 9 14:39 ../sbr/libmh.a maybe that's the problem.. -larne- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA57746 for pups-liszt; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 13:01:24 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Fri Apr 20 12:42:54 2001 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA57741 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 13:01:19 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f3K2gsf23361 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 19:42:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 19:42:54 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200104200242.f3K2gsf23361(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] Maximum PDP-11 executable size? Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > > message "problem 2: ...". I do remember that being present during > > That's something I added myself, to try to help with the problem.. Ok - whew, for a minute there I thought some of my debug code had leaked to the world ;) That's the style of debug message I use <g> > /VERSION says: > Current Patch Level: 400 > Date: January 24, 1998 Ouch - that is a bit old, there are updates thru 434 (I've 435 in midstream but haven't had time to finish it). > That's what was on the PUPS FTP site.. Ah. Much becomes clear now. That indeed was the version at one time. A year or so ago I and Warren coordinated an update to the 2.11 in PUPS The current PUPS version is 431 (only 3 updates since then - I've slowed down a lot over the last couple years). > hm.. how do you specify the base segment size to ld? i don't see anything in You don't. At least not directly. Anything outside an overlay goes into the base segment. Thus anything before the first -Z goes into the base, and anything after the -Y goes into the base. > the manual page. Just link enough code into the base that it becomes the > right size? That's basically the way to do it. You can do "size" on the .o files first to get an idea what you want to put where but after that tuning the overlays to fit is a bit of an art. > text data bss dec hex > 27648 35860 32412 95920 176b0 total text: 83072 > overlays: 832,4352,2624,832,1920,29568,192,11008,4096 the single BIGGEST problem is that 'data + bss' exceeds not only the 56KB limit but the total 64KB limit available to a process. Looks like MH want 35860+32412 or 68272 bytes of D space. You might be able to get the code to fit - I'd pack the base to at least 40KB (more likely 48KB) and only have two or three overlays of 24KB or 16KB. THe data space problem means you're going to have to go and lower a lot of the buffer size limits. Remember: even if you do get the dataspace down to where the linker doesn't complain the program will almost certainly try to malloc() memory. Thus the smaller the data+bss the better - and be prepared for malloc() failures One thing that can be done is to run 'xstr' over the sources and collect error message strings, printf strings, and so on into a common pool. The other thing that can be done is create a strings file and extract as many as possible strings from the source modules into an external file. Examples of doing this type of thing can be found in the source tree - 'lint' was one such program, 'sendmail' was another and kermit yet another (that's why there are 'sendmail.sr' and 'kermit5.sr' files on the system). In fact 'kermit' is a good example of squishing a monster program into a small machine. Check out /usr/src/new/kermit5.188 > ld: too big for type 431 (problem 2: tsize = 0, ovrnd = -32768, dtotal = 0) > > the negative ovrnd i find very strange- perhaps the wrapround bug? Hmmm, could be. > Well, considering that there's a couple of *large* libraries here.. > -rw-r--r-- 1 ejb 127074 Apr 9 14:47 ../zotnet/libzot.a > -rw-r--r-- 1 ejb 102126 Apr 9 14:39 ../sbr/libmh.a > > maybe that's the problem.. The size of the .a doesn't accurately reflect the code+text+bss For one thing 'bss' takes up no room at all in an archive. Don't forget that symbol tables and relocation information (as well as 'ar' book keeping info) is present. You can't rely on "ls -l" to say very much about an object file - only "size" can do that. "size libmh.a" will give a much better idea where the problem areas are. Steven Schultz sms(a)to.gd-es.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA58045 for pups-liszt; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 14:21:45 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Edward Brocklesby <ejb(a)leguin.org.uk> Fri Apr 20 14:12:58 2001 Received: from klamath.leguin.org.uk (pc62-oxf1.cable.ntl.com [62.254.132.62]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA58041 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 14:21:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from ejb(a)leguin.org.uk) Received: from klamath.leguin.org.uk (klamath [127.0.0.1]) by klamath.leguin.org.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id FAA19106; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 05:12:59 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: klamath.leguin.org.uk: Host klamath [127.0.0.1] claimed to be klamath.leguin.org.uk Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Edward Brocklesby <ejb(a)leguin.org.uk> Organization: Leguin Network Services To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] Maximum PDP-11 executable size? Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 05:12:58 +0100 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: <200104200242.f3K2gsf23361(a)moe.2bsd.com> In-Reply-To: <200104200242.f3K2gsf23361(a)moe.2bsd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01042005125805.00527(a)klamath.leguin.org.uk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Friday 20 April 2001 3:42 am, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > the single BIGGEST problem is that 'data + bss' exceeds not only the > 56KB limit but the total 64KB limit available to a process. Looks > like MH want 35860+32412 or 68272 bytes of D space. > > You might be able to get the code to fit - I'd pack the base to at > least 40KB (more likely 48KB) and only have two or three overlays > of 24KB or 16KB. The problem appears to be `libmh.a', which alone has 30K text + 22K data + 24K bss (77444 total). Any way around this? I've tried all the combinations i can think of, to no avail.. > One thing that can be done is to run 'xstr' over the sources and > collect error message strings, printf strings, and so on into a common > pool. The other thing that can be done is create a strings file > and extract as many as possible strings from the source modules into > an external file. Examples of doing this type of thing can be found > in the source tree - 'lint' was one such program, 'sendmail' was another > and kermit yet another (that's why there are 'sendmail.sr' and > 'kermit5.sr' files on the system). hmm... a lot of work just to get MH working. > > ld: too big for type 431 (problem 2: tsize = 0, ovrnd = -32768, dtotal = > > 0) > > > > the negative ovrnd i find very strange- perhaps the wrapround bug? > > Hmmm, could be. Could be i used the wrong printf format also.. > "size libmh.a" will give a much better idea where the problem areas > are. unfortunately, size doesn't appear to work on archive libraries. -larne- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA58237 for pups-liszt; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 15:01:25 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Fri Apr 20 14:49:59 2001 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA58232 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 15:01:21 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f3K4nxv24294 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 21:49:59 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 21:49:59 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200104200449.f3K4nxv24294(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] Maximum PDP-11 executable size? Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > From: Edward Brocklesby <ejb(a)leguin.org.uk> > The problem appears to be `libmh.a', which alone has 30K text + 22K data + > 24K bss (77444 total). Any way around this? I've tried all the combinations > i can think of, to no avail.. I think this would be a very good time to point out that 'data' is NOT overlaid, only the text is overlaid. There is but 1 data segment and all data+bss goes into it. Text overlays work because there's a very careful dance done by the assembler and linker. Functions use a 'thunk' (intermediate transfer vector) - thus when a program calls foo() it is really calling something like ~foo(). That thunk performs part of the function prolog and then checks if the overlay mapping needs to changeoa and if so makes a syscall to have the kernel twiddle the MMU. Then the thunk calls foo+4 (skipping the part of the function prolog that has already been done). Very elegant but completely unapplicable to data references (think on it - how is each and every pointer dereference to be checked to see if that data is mapped in?). In order to get the code to fit it would be necessary to extract all of the .o files from the .a file ("ar x libmh.a") and pack the .o files into overlays so they fit nicely. > > One thing that can be done is to run 'xstr' over the sources and > > hmm... a lot of work just to get MH working. Getting 32bit programs (and MH was done on a VAX or PDP10 (which is actually a 36 bit machine ;)) to run on a 16 bit machine is a lot of work. Since MH was written with a large address space in mind it will likely be necessary to go thru the code and find the "#define BUFSIZE 32000" or whatever and scale things back. The odds are good that many buffers are declared to be large just because it didn't matter on a big address space machine. That's what had to be done for 'vi', 'sendmail', 'kermit', etc. > > "size libmh.a" will give a much better idea where the problem areas > > are. > > unfortunately, size doesn't appear to work on archive libraries. Oh. Darn, I got my systems mixed up. On some systems 'size' will work on .a files - something to put on the TODO pile (shouldn't be too hard since 'nm' works with .a files). Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA58368 for pups-liszt; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 15:35:23 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Edward Brocklesby <ejb(a)leguin.org.uk> Fri Apr 20 15:26:25 2001 Received: from klamath.leguin.org.uk (pc62-oxf1.cable.ntl.com [62.254.132.62]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA58364 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 15:35:18 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from ejb(a)leguin.org.uk) Received: from klamath.leguin.org.uk (klamath [127.0.0.1]) by klamath.leguin.org.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id GAA19840; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 06:26:27 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: klamath.leguin.org.uk: Host klamath [127.0.0.1] claimed to be klamath.leguin.org.uk Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Edward Brocklesby <ejb(a)leguin.org.uk> Organization: Leguin Network Services To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] Maximum PDP-11 executable size? Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 06:26:25 +0100 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: <200104200449.f3K4nxv24294(a)moe.2bsd.com> In-Reply-To: <200104200449.f3K4nxv24294(a)moe.2bsd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01042006262506.00527(a)klamath.leguin.org.uk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Friday 20 April 2001 5:49 am, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > In order to get the code to fit it would be necessary to extract > all of the .o files from the .a file ("ar x libmh.a") and > pack the .o files into overlays so they fit nicely. hmm.. i might have a look at doing this after i get xstr working. > Getting 32bit programs (and MH was done on a VAX or PDP10 (which is > actually a 36 bit machine ;)) to run on a 16 bit machine is a lot of > work. 36bit with 9bit bytes, iirc .. fun :> I'm currently converting libmh.a to use xstr, but I've come across a problem.. given the definition static char unixbuf[BUFSIZ] = ""; xstr generates the code static char unixbuf[BUFSIZ] = (&xstr[0]); which the C compiler refuses to compile. Any way around this? -larne- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA59071 for pups-liszt; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 17:41:53 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Wolfgang Helbig <helbig(a)Informatik.BA-Stuttgart.DE> Fri Apr 20 17:37:28 2001 Received: from RVC1.Informatik.BA-Stuttgart.DE (isdn258.s.netic.de [212.9.163.2]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA59067 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 17:41:48 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from helbig(a)Informatik.BA-Stuttgart.DE) Received: (from helbig@localhost) by RVC1.Informatik.BA-Stuttgart.DE (8.11.2/8.9.3) id f3K7bSv10954; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 09:37:28 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 09:37:28 +0200 (CEST) From: Wolfgang Helbig <helbig(a)Informatik.BA-Stuttgart.DE> Message-Id: <200104200737.f3K7bSv10954(a)RVC1.Informatik.BA-Stuttgart.DE> To: helbig(a)Informatik.BA-Stuttgart.DE, leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de Subject: Re: [pups] V6 and Supnik-simulator Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > > If the following README sounds interesting to you, maybe we can > > arrange to put a tar ball of it onto minnie? > > > > I also prepared postscript files of the V6-documentation. > > Anyone interested? > > > Yes, me in example :-). I wonder wether you could give them to dmr to be > placed just at the side of the v7 docs, or wether you could put it > into the archive? I asked Dennis, and he told me, the best place for those directories is the minnie archive. So I'd like to put it there, but don't know how to. Wolfgang > > Regards -- Markus > > > > > Wolfgang > > > > First README: > > UNIX V6 on the Supnik simulator: > > -------------------------------- > > This directory contains tape files for the Supnik simulator and > > accompaning README files, which I produced when preparing an OS [...] > > Second README: > > This directory contains some documentation as found on the UNIX V6 > > Distribution tape. The files were converted to postscript with > > groff and the usage of the V6 ms-macro package. (See the print > > shell script) [...] Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA59307 for pups-liszt; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 18:22:59 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Markus E Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Fri Apr 20 18:15:44 2001 Received: from mx2.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (mx2.Informatik.Uni-Tuebingen.De [134.2.12.9]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA59303 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 18:22:55 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de) Received: from neuromancer.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (neuromancer [134.2.12.58]) by mx2.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id C80C01066; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:14:18 +0200 (MST) Received: (from leypold@localhost) by neuromancer.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (8.9.3/8.8.7) id IAA01537; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 08:15:44 GMT Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 08:15:44 GMT Message-Id: <200104200815.IAA01537(a)neuromancer.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> X-Authentication-Warning: neuromancer.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de: leypold set sender to leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de using -f From: Markus E Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> To: helbig(a)Informatik.BA-Stuttgart.DE Cc: helbig(a)Informatik.BA-Stuttgart.DE, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au In-reply-to: <200104200737.f3K7bSv10954(a)RVC1.Informatik.BA-Stuttgart.DE> (message from Wolfgang Helbig on Fri, 20 Apr 2001 09:37:28 +0200 (CEST)) Subject: Re: [pups] V6 and Supnik-simulator References: <200104200737.f3K7bSv10954(a)RVC1.Informatik.BA-Stuttgart.DE> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > Delivered-To: leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de > Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 09:37:28 +0200 (CEST) > From: Wolfgang Helbig <helbig(a)Informatik.BA-Stuttgart.DE> > Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au > > > > If the following README sounds interesting to you, maybe we can > > > arrange to put a tar ball of it onto minnie? > > > > > > I also prepared postscript files of the V6-documentation. > > > Anyone interested? > > > > > > Yes, me in example :-). I wonder wether you could give them to dmr to be > > placed just at the side of the v7 docs, or wether you could put it > > into the archive? > > I asked Dennis, and he told me, the best place for those directories > is the minnie archive. So I'd like to put it there, but don't know how to. Well -- send a mail to warren k tomey (wkt@.... -- you'll find him in the mailing list). He has been building the archive and might tell you, how to transfer the files. Since PUPS-archive has an incoming directory, I think, it might be, that ftp-'put' to incoming will work. Warren or some other archive maintainer can pick it from there, and place it in the proper directories. Ask Warren. He is the one who should know. Regards -- Markus PS: Somehow I know your name. You haven't written a book by chance? Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA59510 for pups-liszt; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 19:00:17 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)update.uu.se> Fri Apr 20 18:51:19 2001 Received: from Tempo.Update.UU.SE (root(a)Tempo.Update.UU.SE [130.238.19.17]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA59503 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 19:00:11 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from bqt(a)update.uu.se) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Tempo.Update.UU.SE (8.11.2/8.11.2/Update-Iltempogigante) with ESMTP id f3K8pKq08127; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:51:20 +0200 Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:51:19 +0200 (CEST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)update.uu.se> To: Edward Brocklesby <ejb(a)leguin.org.uk> cc: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] Maximum PDP-11 executable size? In-Reply-To: <01042006262506.00527(a)klamath.leguin.org.uk> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0104201049370.3728-100000(a)Tempo.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, 20 Apr 2001, Edward Brocklesby wrote: > On Friday 20 April 2001 5:49 am, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > > Getting 32bit programs (and MH was done on a VAX or PDP10 (which is > > actually a 36 bit machine ;)) to run on a 16 bit machine is a lot of > > work. > > 36bit with 9bit bytes, iirc .. fun :> Actually, the PDP-10 have variable byte size. Anything from 1 to 36 bits. Lazy people went with 9 bit bytes, while size-aware people used 7 bit bytes. And then you have SIXBIT... /Department for worthless knowledge. :-) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA65073 for pups-liszt; Sat, 21 Apr 2001 05:02:46 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO> Sat Apr 21 04:23:51 2001 Received: from uucp-relay.eunet.no (gasspedal.eunet.no [193.71.71.15]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA65069 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 21 Apr 2001 05:02:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from tih(a)barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by uucp-relay.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with UUCP id UAA97313; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 20:54:02 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from tih(a)barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO) Received: by barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO (Postfix, from userid 1001) id D4DED7201; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 20:23:52 +0200 (CEST) To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] Maximum PDP-11 executable size? References: <200104200242.f3K2gsf23361(a)moe.2bsd.com> From: Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO> Date: 20 Apr 2001 20:23:51 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Steven M. Schultz"'s message of "Thu, 19 Apr 2001 19:42:54 -0700 (PDT)" Message-ID: <867l0f8m6g.fsf(a)barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> writes: > > Current Patch Level: 400 > > Date: January 24, 1998 > > Ouch - that is a bit old, there are updates thru 434 (I've 435 in > midstream but haven't had time to finish it). You mean 435/436: patch 435 was released on February 7th, 2001. :-) -tih -- Popularity is the hallmark of mediocrity. --Niles Crane, "Frasier"

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