TUHS

tuhs@tuhs.org

47 participants
6502 discussions

[pups] Vtserver, BSD2.11 and brain_fatigue

by Kevin Murrell

Hi all Firstly, I have done this before, but due to age/stress/tiredness/whatever, I can't remember what I did! I am using Warren's/Fred's vtserver program to install BSD2.11 on an 11/53. I have installed the root.dump file (and all the steps beforehand) and now my '53 boots into 2.11. So far so good! I now need to restore the usr file systems - all the stuff in file6/7/8.tar How do I do this still using Vtserver. Someone remind me please! Regards Kevin Murrell

22 years, 9 months

RE: [pups] Unix on a PDP-11/24

by Ian King

You could also run Unix v6, if you're of a historical bent; 2.9BSD should run with no problems; and possibly v7, if you have the 22-bit address bus and enough RAM. Keep in mind that if there isn't a distribution for your machine, you can build one on an emulator, then create a disk image. However, with v6 I ran the 11/40 image on an 11/34 and was able to rebuild for my hardware. Warren wrote a neat tool to get bits onto a machine over a serial line; it takes a while (at 9600 baud!), but it works. Look on the PUPS site under VTserver; don't worry that there probably isn't an installation package for a given version or machine, there's a way to run a small client on a PC that can talk to a bootstrap on the target machine. -- Ian DISCLAIMER: Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain - or to my email address. These rantings are my personal statements, and not a product of my employer. -----Original Message----- From: Bill Gunshannon [mailto:bill@cs.scranton.edu] Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 11:17 AM To: Unix_Preservation_List Subject: Re: [pups] Unix on a PDP-11/24 On 13 Aug 2002, Christopher McNabb wrote: > I've acquired a PDP-11/24 with 2 RL02s and a RA80. What are my > options for running Unix? > Ultrix-11 if you can get a 9-track tape drive. :-) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill(a)cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h> _______________________________________________ PUPS mailing list PUPS(a)minnie.tuhs.org http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups

22 years, 9 months

RE: [pups] Unix on a PDP-11/24

by Fred N. van Kempen

> I've acquired a PDP-11/24 with 2 RL02s and a RA80. What are > my options for running Unix? Either a small system like V7, or Ultrix-11. And no, you don't need a tape drive... as long as you have a PC around, and the PDP-11 has a serial port, you can use my VTserver package to install Ultrix over the console port. Cheers, Fred

22 years, 9 months

[pups] Unix on a PDP-11/24

by Christopher McNabb

I've acquired a PDP-11/24 with 2 RL02s and a RA80. What are my options for running Unix? -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Christopher L McNabb Tel: 540 231 7554 Operating Systems Analyst Email: cmcnabb(a)vt.edu Virginia Tech ICBM: 37.205622N 80.414595W GMRS: WPSR255 ARS: N2UX Grid Sq: EM97SD

22 years, 9 months

Re: [TUHS] Re: pcc ports

by Christian Groessler

On 08/10/2002 04:54:16 PM MST Al Kossow wrote: > >> I see there no version for the Z8000 but for the 16032. Was there >> really a Z8000 version? > >http://www.lcs.mit.edu/about/architects.html > >"Fortunately for Ward, by 1980 the community of computer researchers >had grown from a few labs to a few dozen---and for the most part, the >research community was moving in one particular direction: UNIX, the >castrated Multics operating system that had been spawned from Bell >Labs. UNIX was loved because it was small and portable, which meant >that it would be easy for Ward to get the operating system running on >the NuMachine. The group got the UNIX source code from Bell Labs and >ported the operating system to three different microprocessors: the >Zilog Z8000, the Intel 8086, and the Motorola 68000. Although it >would not be clear for several years, by building a single-user >computer with a bitmapped display, a network interface, and a >powerful microprocessor, Ward's group had just created one of the >world's first UNIX workstations. >" Hmm, but where is it? :-) regards, chris

22 years, 9 months

Re: pcc ports

by Al Kossow

> I see there no version for the Z8000 but for the 16032. Was there > really a Z8000 version? http://www.lcs.mit.edu/about/architects.html "Fortunately for Ward, by 1980 the community of computer researchers had grown from a few labs to a few dozen---and for the most part, the research community was moving in one particular direction: UNIX, the castrated Multics operating system that had been spawned from Bell Labs. UNIX was loved because it was small and portable, which meant that it would be easy for Ward to get the operating system running on the NuMachine. The group got the UNIX source code from Bell Labs and ported the operating system to three different microprocessors: the Zilog Z8000, the Intel 8086, and the Motorola 68000. Although it would not be clear for several years, by building a single-user computer with a bitmapped display, a network interface, and a powerful microprocessor, Ward's group had just created one of the world's first UNIX workstations. "

22 years, 9 months

Re: pcc ports

by cpg＠aladdin.de

On 08/10/2002 10:09:54 AM ZE10 Warren Toomey wrote: > >In article by M E Leypold @ labnet: >> Al Kossow writes: >> > There were ports of PCC to the 8086, Z8000, and 68000 done by >> > MIT's Laboratory for Computer Science. This might be a more >> > historically correct place to start. >> I alway wondered, wether the source of these ports is available >> somewhere. I bet it isn't. >> Regards -- Markus > >Al has sent in the PCC ports mentioned to the Unix Archive. They are >now available on the primary site at both: > > http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Applications/Portable_CC/ > ftp://minnie.tuhs.org/UnixArchive/Applications/Portable_CC/ I see there no version for the Z8000 but for the 16032. Was there really a Z8000 version? regards, chris

22 years, 9 months

v7 upgrade

by Al Kossow

There were ports of PCC to the 8086, Z8000, and 68000 done by MIT's Laboratory for Computer Science. This might be a more historically correct place to start.

22 years, 9 months

RE: [pups] 2.11BSD on non separate I&D systems?

by Fred N. van Kempen

Hi, > Has anyone done anything to try and get 2.11BSD working > on non-separate I&D PDP-11s? > > One of the various READMEs I ran across said it might be possible > with some creative memory layouts using overlays. > > I briefly searched the PUPS mail archives but turned up > nothing. No way. It already relies heavily on overlays to get things done. Even without the networking code (which requires I&D, *and* Supervisor mode), there is pretty much no way to get it to fit (even a small system) within a 64K space. If you really need a UNIX that (slowly ;-) fits in the nonID space, ytu Ultrix-11. That fits, although its very slow on such machines. Cheers, Fred

22 years, 9 months

[pups] 2.11BSD on non separate I&D systems?

by Michael

Hi folks, Forgive me in case this question has been asked before.. Has anyone done anything to try and get 2.11BSD working on non-separate I&D PDP-11s? One of the various READMEs I ran across said it might be possible with some creative memory layouts using overlays. I briefly searched the PUPS mail archives but turned up nothing. Thanks, -- Michael lion(a)apocalypse.org

22 years, 9 months

[pups] Message for Steve Schultz

by Robin Birch

Hi Steve, Long time no chat. Can't get through to your email on moe so can you amend my email address for patch distributions to robinb(a)ruffnready.co.uk. Attempting to stem the tide of spam :-( Cheers Robin

22 years, 9 months

SVID?

by Larry McVoy

In the "it would be nice" department, I'd love more copies of the 1986 3 volume SVID. If people have copies of these sitting around, I'll pay for them. I could use a dozen sets. Thanks in advance (he says hopefully :) -- --- Larry McVoy lm at bitmover.com http://www.bitmover.com/lm

22 years, 10 months

[Bourne shell] SVR1

by Sven Mascheck

Hello, I'm searching for documentation about the SVR1 shell: i would be glad if somebody could dig up e.g. a man page or the 1st edition of the SVID (System V Interface Definition). I'm interested in the history of the Bourne shell, and this is the last important variant i'm missing (my current knowledge documented in .sig). I know the short "changes" paragraph in the 2nd SVID, however a few points are still unclear to me. Sven -- <http://www.uni-ulm.de/~s_smasch/various/bourne/>

22 years, 10 months

Re: [TUHS] Copies of 1978 and 1984 BSTJ on Unix; what should I do with them?

by Aharon Robbins

> (Does anyone know how many copies of BSTJ vol. 57, no. 6 there are out there?) Bell Labs reprinted this volume, it was popular for a while. I bought my copy circa 1981 simply by writing to the address listed and sending a check for whatever amount it said. Arnold

22 years, 10 months

Re: [TUHS] Copies of 1978 and 1984 BSTJ on Unix; what should I do with them?

by Bryan Cantrill

> Dear UNIX Hertigate Society, > > I was wondering if you could tell me if these two journals are worth > anything and to whom. > > WHile I haven't done Unix work since 1992. When I picked these journals > up in 1986 out of computer engineering school I had a sense they were > something special. I believe the Bell System Technical Journal > July/August 1978 Vol. 57, No. 6., Part 2 is one of the first places that > Ritchie and THomson publicly described the design of Unix. > > They are both in reasonably good condition. Do you know if they are > worth anything? Do you know who might be interested in them? They are certainly worth something. (And, being finite, will probably be worth more in the future.) If they mean something to you personally, you should probably hold on to them. If you want to sell them, I would recommend eBay (which seems to be the best venue for selling used computer manuals at the moment). Be sure to include a write-up of what makes these two volumes so special. Note that BSTJ vol. 57, no. 6 will likely fetch a much higher price than vol. 63, no. 8. (I've bought the latter for as little as ten bucks.) (Does anyone know how many copies of BSTJ vol. 57, no. 6 there are out there?) - Bryan ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bryan Cantrill, Solaris Kernel Development. bmc(a)eng.sun.com (650) 786-3652

22 years, 10 months

Copies of 1978 and 1984 BSTJ on Unix; what should I do with them?

by Sylvan.Stephan＠epamail.epa.gov

Dear UNIX Hertigate Society, I was wondering if you could tell me if these two journals are worth anything and to whom. WHile I haven't done Unix work since 1992. When I picked these journals up in 1986 out of computer engineering school I had a sense they were something special. I believe the Bell System Technical Journal July/August 1978 Vol. 57, No. 6., Part 2 is one of the first places that Ritchie and THomson publicly described the design of Unix. They are both in reasonably good condition. Do you know if they are worth anything? Do you know who might be interested in them? THanks! Stephan Sylvan

22 years, 10 months

Distributions directory and UCB, and missing ftp site

by Gregg C Levine

Hello from Gregg C Levine Folks, I've got a question here. What happened to the ftp site mentioned in this Readme file? I'll post it here, in its entirety, with the reference in question highlighted. Quoted Readme there: "The directories 2.9BSD and 2.11BSD contain these UNIX distributions, and " "were supplied by Steven Schultz. They contain a full distribution, including " "installation tape images. " " " "The remaining gzipped tar files are other 2BSD distributions supplied by" "Keith Bostic, except for spencer_2bsd.tar.gz which came from Henry Spencer." "They do not contain installation tape images. The 2.9BSD-Patch directory" "contains patches to 2.9BSD dated August 85, and again supplied by Keith Bostic." " " "Note that Steven Schultz is still maintaining 2.11BSD, fixing bugs and making" "improvements. The patches required to bring this archive version of 2.11BSD" "up to the current patch level can be obtained via anonymous ftp to" "ftp.iipo.gtegsc.com in the directory /pub/2.11BSD" ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I have tried connecting to it, and my client tells me it does not exist. But I've seen Steve's message, on my earlier question, so I know he's here. Steve, are you continuing the work described in the file? And can you get back to me, via a private message. Warren both replies are valid. Gregg C Levine drwho8(a)worldnet.att.net "How many floors does this TARDIS of yours have, anyway?" P.S. Thanks to everyone for getting back to me so quickly on that issue regarding our old friend, and the historical items here.

22 years, 10 months

Re: [TUHS] Distributions directory and UCB, and missing ftp site

by Steven M. Schultz

Hi - > From: "Gregg C Levine" <drwho8(a)worldnet.att.net> > 2.11BSD" > "up to the current patch level can be obtained via anonymous ftp to" > "ftp.iipo.gtegsc.com in the directory /pub/2.11BSD" > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > I have tried connecting to it, and my client tells me it does not exist. But Indeed. That's the trouble/curse of the Internet - it's not possible to go around and fix/change all the references to names that change as companies get bought/sold That was a long long (quad_t? ;)) time ago. GTE sold their Government Systems Corporation ('gsc') to General Dynamics several years ago. After a while GTE of course insisted we stop using 'gtegsc' - then a little later GTE became Verizon. Try "ftp.to.gd-es.com" For now. The idjits in charge are playing at reorganizing and I think sometime next year the domain name will change yet again - but the hope is that the current name will be retained for a while as a compatibility measure. > Steve, are you continuing the work described in the file? And can you get It's been a slow couple years - only a couple updates done last year and only one or so this year. Current patchlevel's at 442 (done Jan 2002). Yes, the archive of updates is maintained. I think there are a couple mirrors but I have no accurate count of who is mirroring the directory Steven Schultz sms(a)2bsd.com

22 years, 10 months

Re: [TUHS] Re: Porting Unix v6 to i386

by Warren Toomey

In article by Sven Dehmlow: > Hi Warren, > I can't find the port [of V6 to the 286] in the archives. > Am I'm too stupid to search or haven't you added it yet? > Sven My apologies, I had forgotten to import it. It's now available at http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Other/V6on286 with the mirror sites to follow soon. Cheers, Warren

22 years, 10 months

Re: [TUHS] Other operating systems on the PDP-11

by Steven M. Schultz

Hi - > From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)minnie.tuhs.org> > In article by Greg 'groggy' Lehey: > > The big issue is address space. It's difficult enough shoehorning > > 2.11BSD onto the PDP-11. It's well-nigh impossible to retrofit 32 bit > > operating systems. But Steven M. Schulz will doubtless give you a > More specifically, the issue is data space. Using overlays, you can > have a process with more than 64Kbytes of instruction space on a PDP-11, > but the maximum data space that a process can have is 64Kbytes. > > The kernel is in a similar situation, but with some PDP-11 models > there is kernel mode and supervisor mode, giving you two separate > 64Kbytes instruction + 64Kbytes data address spaces (and overlays > to increase the I space). > > I can't see Linux fitting into 128K of data space, and GCC is definitely > out of the question. Besides, 2.11BSD already looks pretty close to 4BSD :-) Well said Warren. The D (data) space is the most severe constraint on adding any new feature to 2.11BSD. Besides, as Warren mentioned, most of 4.3BSD as well as a few bits&pieces of 4.4 are already present. A couple years ago I toyed with the idea of porting over the 4.4BSD tty subsystem (it'd be real nice to have termios and 8bit clean serial line handling). The 'struct tty' almost tripled in size! Even doing major surgery and leaving out a couple less useful capabilities the growth in 'struct tty' exceeded what is left available in 2.11's kernel D space. Oh, I should point out the limit for the kernel's D space is even lower than the 64KB mentioned. Of that 64KB the I/O page has to, of course, be mapped in at all times or the kernel wouldn't have access to the memory management registers, device registers, and so on. Then the kernel has to have access to 'struct u' (the per process context area - part of the address space is also where the kernel stack is kept). So, 64 - 8 - 8 = 48. The kernel has a total of 48KB of data space to use. There are a few "tricks" that are played. Some data structures are allocated external to the kernel's D space. That data is mapped in as needed. Slows things down of course since it does take a number of instructions to save the current memory manangement status, change it to access the external data, fetch the data, restore the mmu registers. Things such as the 4.3BSD disc quota system were implemented this way. There is at the present time an absolute maximum on the size of the I (instruction/text) space of 56K + (15*8)KB or 176KB (base segment of 56KB and 15 overlays of 8KB each. At present, depending on how many drivers and so on are configured, about 9 or 10 overlays are used to build a 2.11 kernel. The actual limit of kernel size that can be booted is a bit lower due to how the boot process functions - in order to simplify the memory manangement during booting the boot code relocates to 192KB. The sum of the kernel text plus initialized data (but not the .bss segment) can not exceed 192KB or the boot code will be overwritten. Another complicating factor comes from UMR (Unibus Mapping Registers) handling - if the boot code ever runs above 256KB then UMR handling would have to be done by the boot code on UNIBUS machines (Qbus machines of course don't have this problem since they don't have UMRs to contend with). GCC (all of the GNU stuff actually) was written with, I believe, "malloc aforethought" ;) It's outright hostile to 16 bit machines. There might be a few bytes free to add a feature or two to 2.11BSD but much more than that would mean a lot of work to come up with some free D space for the data structures that would be needed. Cheers, Steven Schultz sms(a)2bsd.com

22 years, 10 months

Other operating systems on the PDP-11

by Gregg C Levine

Hello from Gregg C Levine I've got a question for those of you, who work more in that field then I.Has anyone successfully gotten, say, NetBSD, or anything along the lines of the 4.4 series to run on a PDP-11? Granted I don't think it would work there, because of the way its hardware was constructed. Or for that matter, say Linux? Since the Simh collection builds easily on Linux, I was thinking that it would be relatively simple to do so. Gregg C Levine drwho8(a)worldnet.att.net "How many floors does this TARDIS of yours have, anyway?"

22 years, 10 months

SCO then Caldera

by Gregg C Levine

Hello from Gregg C Levine The web site links, that contain the SCO location, now point to a site on Caldera's site. I tried e-mailing someone via their contacts page, but so far to no avail. Has anyone on the list had any favorable response, regarding the ability to access their archives of the older versions of UNIX? As always, I am interested in the versions of UNIX that are targeted towards the PDP-11. Seriously though, has anyone actually gotten any feedback from Caldera? Warren if you want to comment, please do so, and I'll even accept a private one. Gregg C Levine drwho8(a)worldnet.att.net "How many floors does this TARDIS of yours have, anyway?"

22 years, 10 months

Re: [TUHS] The Tim Shoppa distribution of V6

by Wolfgang Helbig

Gregg C Levine: >gotten the distribution to boot, using a version of Simh? A text file of >commands to be fed to the Simh program would be a great help. Here is a transcript: PDP-11 simulator V2.9-10 sim> set rl0 rl02 sim> show rl0 RL0, 5242KW, not attached, write enabled, RL02 sim> att rl0 unix_v6.rl02 sim> show rl0 RL0, 5242KW, attached to unix_v6.rl02, write enabled, RL02 sim> boot rl0 !unix unix v6 11/23 mem = 99 KW max = 63 # Good Luck, Wolfgang Gregg C Levine: >gotten the distribution to boot, using a version of Simh? A text file of >commands to be fed to the Simh program would be a great help. Here is a transcript: PDP-11 simulator V2.9-10 sim> set rl0 rl02 sim> show rl0 RL0, 5242KW, not attached, write enabled, RL02 sim> att rl0 unix_v6.rl02 sim> show rl0 RL0, 5242KW, attached to unix_v6.rl02, write enabled, RL02 sim> boot rl0 !unix unix v6 11/23 mem = 99 KW max = 63 # Good Luck, Wolfgang

22 years, 10 months

Re: [TUHS] The Tim Shoppa distribution of V6

by Gregg C Levine

Hello from Gregg C Levine Thank you for your kind advice, Warren. However, I have tried most of the other members of that directory, and yes, it does work. I am curious about this one, because it appears to be decidely different then say an actual distribution of V6. I am also looking at the ones that came from the Research area. Gregg C Levine drwho8(a)worldnet.att.net "How many floors does this TARDIS of yours have, anyway?" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Warren Toomey" <wkt(a)minnie.tuhs.org> To: "Gregg C Levine" <drwho8(a)worldnet.att.net> Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 8:09 AM Subject: Re: [TUHS] The Tim Shoppa distribution of V6 > In article by Gregg C Levine: > > On the FTP site, is a a V6 distribution contributed by Tim Shoppa. It is > > created for the PDP-11/23, and there is a good readme.txt file that explains > > the different images, and how they got there. However, has anyone actually > > gotten the distribution to boot, using a version of Simh? A text file of > > commands to be fed to the Simh program would be a great help. > > I have mine, built using the MingW compiler, and this is version 2.9-10. > > Also, if anyone has gotten it to boot on real hardware, that would a be a > > great plus. > > Gregg, I'd first try the other V6 boot images found in: > > http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/PDP-11/Boot_Images > > e.g v6_rl02_unknown.gz > > to make sure that they will boot with the Supnik emulator. > You might also find that the Supnik emulator can't emulate > an 11/23. So I would also try the Ersatz emulator and set > it's CPU to be a 23. > > In other words, try a known bootable image first, then > try Ersatz-11 as an 11/23 on that same bootable image, > and then try Tim Shoppa's image. > > Warren >

22 years, 10 months

The Tim Shoppa distribution of V6

by Gregg C Levine

Hello again from Gregg C Levine On the FTP site, is a a V6 distribution contributed by Tim Shoppa. It is created for the PDP-11/23, and there is a good readme.txt file that explains the different images, and how they got there. However, has anyone actually gotten the distribution to boot, using a version of Simh? A text file of commands to be fed to the Simh program would be a great help. I have mine, built using the MingW compiler, and this is version 2.9-10. Also, if anyone has gotten it to boot on real hardware, that would a be a great plus. Gregg C Levine drwho8(a)worldnet.att.net "How many floors does this TARDIS of yours have, anyway?"

22 years, 10 months

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TUHS