If this helps at all, I've been working (very, very slowly) on a port of
v32 to Intel platforms. At first I used gcc for some kernel work, but
quickly realized that it would be overwhelming to the final v7 system.
Since I don't want to do the work twice, I looked for a different compiler
suite. I switched to the ACK compiler suite and just finished the WinXP
cross compiler work. It has a pdp11 back end, which I have yet to try,
that may be useful.
It isn't gcc, but ir does do ANSI C and the i386 assembler seems to be
pretty complete. Let me know if there's any interest and I'll put it up
on my site for download.
Pat
> Toby Thain napisał(a):
>
> >On 24-Apr-06, at 9:05 AM, Wesley Parish wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>Quoting Andrzej Popielewicz <vasco(a)icpnet.pl>:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Wesley Parish napisał(a):
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> >It can't be done.
> >
> >As others point out, the program is many times (100x or more?) too
> >big -- likely even gcc 1.x is far too big, but gcc {2,3,4}.x are all
> >meant for large 32-bit systems.
> >
> >However, cross-compilation can certainly be easily done. I have made
> >a PDP-11 back-end for lcc[1] (not quite complete but shows that it
> >can be done), which is an ANSI (c89) compiler[2]. lcc is a much
> >smaller and simpler compiler than gcc, but its executables are still
> >massively outsize for PDP-11 systems.
> >
> >
> Yes, even running vi or csh in Ultrix (in simh pdp11) produced message :
> too big. After setting cpu to 3072K it worked(setting to 4096 K hanged
> the system BTW).
> Cross compilation has also this advantage , that You have better editors
> to Your disposal and You can work faster.
> Well native cc seems to be good enough, using pdp11 in emulator we have
> anyway only hobbyst license .
>
> Andrzej
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS(a)minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>
>
---------------------------------------------
This message was sent using Monmouth Internet MI-Webmail.
http://www.monmouth.com/
> I am running linux and I want to devote a
partition to a good working
>old version of linux v5,6, or 7. I have Bob's
simulator and it works great.
>The thing is when I boot v7_rk05_1145 or v7_rl02_1145
which is I believe
>Dennis's donations I don't know how to log out of the
system. I also want to
>make a filesystem for unix and I don't know how to do
that with a pdp-11
>emulator. I want the source so it can be generated
too.
Gasp! I think you have a number of things wrong that
need correction.
First, now what LINUX stands for? Linux Is Not UniX.
Yep, that's it!
While it is true that LINUX is not UNIX, it is similar
enough. It was designed to be a substitute for UNIX,
and is good enough at it that one could argue it fully
behaves as a UNIX now (which would be tantamount to
saying it is UNIX, though it hasn't passed X/Open
certification).
Then, what's in the archive are not old versions of
LINUX, but of UNIX. In the sense UNIX predates and
sheds the field for LINUX you could think of them as
LINUX antecessors, although there is no shared code or
lineage among them.
What you do when you "boot" the old versions within
SIMH is run an ancient UNIX inside a program that
emulates (behaves as) an old computer. You are not
booting your computer. You are booting a virtual old
computer.
Then, to shut down an old machine, UNIX 6 or 7 you
would simply 'sync' the disks (to ensure all temporary
data was saved)and power down the machine. Or at least
interrupt it to the console monitor. Under SIMH you
can "interrupt" or stop the machine by pressing ^E
([Ctrl] + [E], both pressed at the same time). This
will stop the emulation (sort of as if you had turned
off the old machine) and take you to the SIMH command
prompt. Once there simply type in "quit" and you are
out.
Under system 7 you start in single user mode. You can
go to multi-user status by typing ^D. Then you can
login and out as usual. And stop the machine as
described above ('sync' a couple of times as root and
press ^E).
Regarding the filesystem, you don't need a partition.
SIMH being an emulator and the machine (PDP11)
virtual, everything is virtual. So, what you need to
add more space is to add another disk. Not to *your*
machine, but to the virtual machine, and not a real
disk, but a virtual disk. I.e. a file on your *real*
filesystem that you will treat as a virtual disk. Then
attach it to the virtual PDP11 using the SIMH "attach"
command (this would be tantamount to connecting the
virtual wires of the virtual disk to the virtual
computer). See the manual of SIMH for more details.
As for formatting the disk, see the manual pages. I've
got the kids in the bath now and can't type more, but
this should be enough to clear up your mind.
j
______________________________________________
LLama Gratis a cualquier PC del Mundo.
Llamadas a fijos y móviles desde 1 céntimo por minuto.
http://es.voice.yahoo.com
On Apr 29, 2006, at 7:00 PM, tuhs-request(a)minnie.tuhs.org wrote:
>
> I don't *think* that was it - I remember seeing those boxes at some
> trade show later, but this was a different animal - it was really a
> piece of test equipment for embedded processors (actually it might
> have been a socket-level simulator, that you used to replace an 1802
> or something so you could see what it was doing) I think.
It was the Tek 8560 multi-user development system.
Different models had either an 11/23 or 11/73 processor
with their own peripheral interfaces.
Manuals on bitsavers.com under tektronix/85xx
Tektronix had a Unix variant called uTek that ran on a number of
workstations that they produced in the 1980s - perhaps that's what
you're thinking of? These started out with Nat Semi processors, but
later production systems were 68Ks IIRC. Most of them ran uTek,. but
some also ran a SmallTalk-based system and were sold as AI boxes. As
you'd expect from Tektronix products, the graphics were superb for their
day. The uTek boxes ran the X Window system and had Tektronix' own
window manager.
Bill
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 08:23:19 +0100
> From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)tfeb.org>
> Subject: [TUHS] On the subject of old Unix variants: Tenix?
> To: tuhs(a)minnie.tuhs.org
> Message-ID: <109A4122-F4EE-4430-B7CC-7EB2A0FC35E9(a)tfeb.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>
> Does anyone know anything about this? What I *think* it was was
> something that ran on a logic analyser (?) made by Tektronix, which
> had some kind of PDP-11 inside them. I suspect it was actually 7th
> edition or something similar in rather light disguise. I came across
> one of these in the early 80s but never used it, hence the vagueness
> of my memory.
Does anyone know anything about this? What I *think* it was was
something that ran on a logic analyser (?) made by Tektronix, which
had some kind of PDP-11 inside them. I suspect it was actually 7th
edition or something similar in rather light disguise. I came across
one of these in the early 80s but never used it, hence the vagueness
of my memory.
--tim
First off, isn't it true that both these chips are the same or similar?
A short conference paper on the Bellmac-32 caught my eye because it
mentioned the various data structures the Bellmac keeps in memory,
such as process and interrupt control blocks. I'v become interested in
self-virtualizing CPUs (one well-known example being the IBM System/370
and up, running VM) and I wondered if the data structures make the Bellmac-32
a good candidate for self-virtualization. They are not tied to particular
addresses and a supervisor could inspect and alter its caller's data.
I'm still trying to get my head around the theory. So the manuals would
be interesting, but details about actual implementations would be even
more interesting. Perhaps MERT is relevant to this discussion.
Thanks,
-- Derek
I am copying all I can from the unix archive and will burn it to cd
because I know how precious they are. But what I was thinking was v5,6,7 for
example. Take them and add USB support. Linux would be a good example from
which to draw from. Because it's Posix. Much more could be adde to /dev.
Bill
Has anyone thought of or tried to port the gcc to the old unixes? It
would have to be a very scaled down version. A C compiler that would work
with modern c89 or c99. Something to get a C compiler working that would
compile todays programs. The old C compilers can be kept for safekeeping as
they don't work much anymore.
Bill
Hi there !
Over december last year I had my first wonderful expierence with a
micro-pdp11 running Micro-RSX.
In actual fact I haven't tried much, only a complete reinstall of the
system(which was unecessary, because I've got backup tapes !).
But still an amazing moment.
What I wanted to ask is, in what manner would one transfer old
data/programs/source code from an old
hard-drive/tapes/floppy to more modern drives etc. I basically need to
transfer controller-programs over to x86( Everything works, I believe, but
old hardware is scares) where I want to connect a modern pdp11-interface
card.
Thanking you in advance
Jacques Wagener
Bill Cunningham:
I am copying all I can from the unix archive and will burn it to cd
because I know how precious they are. But what I was thinking was v5,6,7 for
example. Take them and add USB support. Linux would be a good example from
which to draw from. Because it's Posix. Much more could be adde to /dev.
=======
Has anyone ever made a UNIBUS or Qbus USB card?
Norman Wilson
Toronto ON
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/bellLabs/unix/
here is a note from Dennis about the history of the documents
that I've just put up on bitsavers
--
The manual is the 1st edition, a scan of which has been available at
http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/1stEdman.html
in various forms (all renditions of the same scan) for a while.
However, the annotated OS and software scan is new to me This is
a medium-age version of the assembler system for the
PDP 11/20, and is apparently without an MMU. A good find!
There were subsequent assembler versions for the (DEC Special Systems)
11/20 with an MMU and then for a while for the 11/45;
the first C version would appear late summer of 1973.
Regards and thanks,
Dennis
I am running linux and I want to devote a partition to a good working
old version of linux v5,6, or 7. I have Bob's simulator and it works great.
The thing is when I boot v7_rk05_1145 or v7_rl02_1145 which is I believe
Dennis's donations I don't know how to log out of the system. I also want to
make a filesystem for unix and I don't know how to do that with a pdp-11
emulator. I want the source so it can be generated too.
Bill
Bill Cunningham:
I am copying all I can from the unix archive and will burn it to cd
because I know how precious they are. But what I was thinking was v5,6,7 for
example. Take them and add USB support. Linux would be a good example from
which to draw from. Because it's Posix. Much more could be adde to /dev.
=======
Has anyone ever made a UNIBUS or Qbus USB card?
Norman Wilson
Toronto ON
I have been able to install and run ultrix 3, ultrix4
and OpenVMS on the SIMH emulator. No problem at all at
any point.
Regarding ultrix, the images available on the archive
worked like a charm. For ultrix 4 I used an
installation CD I still kept around for ULTRIX on
VAXen.
As for OpenVMS, if you are interested, it also works
OK, but getting it is a bit more difficult. First you
need a Hobbyist license from HP.
You can get one by joining a local VMS user group (or
Encompass US if there is none in your Country).
Usually you can get a free limited membership that
will give you access to the license. It must be
renewed periodically.
Then you need access to VMS for VAX distribution
media. We have been an Ultrix, OSF-Tru64 and VMS shop
for a long time, so that wasn't a problem for me.
Otherwise it might be difficult. I think you can order
a hobbyist copy from HP, but don't rely on my feeble
memory.
Once you have the license and the media, installing it
is just as simple as installing on a real VAX. I had
no trouble at all, but again, I've been a VMS sysman
as well for over 20 years. The only problematic point
is making the network work, but the recipes available
on the web are excellent. You can get to them from the
links in SIMH web page.
> Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 20:32:27 -0400
> From: "Bill Cunningham" <billcu1 at verizon.net>
> Subject: Bob's emulator and ultrix
> To: <wkt at tuhs.org>
>
> I can't get the sim 2.3d to boot ultrix 3.1 or xenix
or anyother boot tapes
> in the uhs's archive. I have compiled the pdp11
emulator with gcc-3.4.6. I
> am also interested in the OS Tim Berners-Lee used to
write his first
> browser. VMS on a VAX machine I have read. Is there
anything like this in
> the archive? A VAX emulator and VMS OS?
______________________________________________
LLama Gratis a cualquier PC del Mundo.
Llamadas a fijos y móviles desde 1 céntimo por minuto.
http://es.voice.yahoo.com
[ Please reply to Bill if you can, I don't know if he's on the list ]
----- Forwarded message from Bill Cunningham <billcu1(a)verizon.net> -----
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 20:32:27 -0400
From: "Bill Cunningham" <billcu1(a)verizon.net>
Subject: Bob's emulator and ultrix
To: <wkt(a)tuhs.org>
I can't get the sim 2.3d to boot ultrix 3.1 or xenix or anyother boot tapes
in the uhs's archive. I have compiled the pdp11 emulator with gcc-3.4.6. I
am also interested in the OS Tim Berners-Lee used to write his first
browser. VMS on a VAX machine I have read. Is there anything like this in
the archive? A VAX emulator and VMS OS?
Bill
----- End forwarded message -----
Begin forwarded message:
[snip]
>
> On 4/18/06, Warren Toomey <wkt(a)tuhs.org> wrote:
>> [ Please reply to Bill if you can, I don't know if he's on
>> the list ]
>>
>> ----- Forwarded message from Bill Cunningham <billcu1(a)verizon.net>
>> -----
>>
>> Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 20:32:27 -0400
>> From: "Bill Cunningham" <billcu1(a)verizon.net>
>> Subject: Bob's emulator and ultrix
>> To: <wkt(a)tuhs.org>
>>
>> I can't get the sim 2.3d to boot ultrix 3.1 or xenix or anyother
>> boot tapes
>> in the uhs's archive. I have compiled the pdp11 emulator with
>> gcc-3.4.6. I
>> am also interested in the OS Tim Berners-Lee used to write his first
>> browser. VMS on a VAX machine I have read. Is there anything like
>> this in
>> the archive? A VAX emulator and VMS OS?
>
> Tim Berners-Lee developed what became the WWW, server and browser, on
> a NeXT computer running the NeXTstep OS. There is not a whole lot of
> public knowledge about the internals of the NeXT hardware, which makes
> it difficult to write an emulator for it.
>
> There is a slowly progressing effort to port NetBSD to NeXT hardware.
> Also, the last few releases of NeXTstep and OpenStep would run either
> on NeXT hardware or selected x86 hardware.
NEXTSTEP 3.3 & OpenStep run on NeXT's m68k, x86, and on HP/Apollo 700
series HPPA workstations and on several SUN SPARCstation models.
I own an HP735 that runs NS3.3 quite nicely.
> Somewhere there is a
> writeup covering the subject of running OpenStep on the VMware virtual
> machine.
This is a close but not quite the same thing article:
http://iamleeg.blogspot.com/2006/04/so-heres-full-system-networking-
is.html
>
> None of this is VAX, nor is it any other hardware covered by SimH.
>
> carl
> --
> carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego
> clowenst(a)ucsd.edu
>
>
> ------------------------------
--
Milo Velimirović <milov(a)uwlax.edu>
Unix Computer Network Administrator 608-785-6618 Office
ITS Network Services 608-386-2817 Cell
University of Wisconsin - La Crosse
La Crosse, Wisconsin 54601 USA 43 48 48 N 91 13 53 W
Hi Bill
you may try a current version of the simh emulator (simh 3.5.-2) which
is available from simh.trailing-edge.com. I had no problems with Ultrix
3.1, Unix V6/V7 etc.. I couldn't find xenix for pdpd-11 (did I miss that
in the archives?). There is Venix, but it's for the PRO-350/380, which
is not a "normal" PDP-11.
As for the OS Tim Berners-Lee used for his first Browser, I believe that
it was made on a Norsk Data Technostation. There is very few information
available on these machines, and I don't think there is an emulator for
them. There are only a few webpages mentioning it at all: see
http://heim.ifi.uio.no/~toresbe/nd/history.html for example (it has a
picture of the machine, note the funny terminal with the two LCD's in
addition to the monitor). I recently donated my Technostation to a
computer museum...
regards
--rp
> Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 20:32:27 -0400
> From: "Bill Cunningham" <billcu1(a)verizon.net>
> Subject: Bob's emulator and ultrix
> To: <wkt(a)tuhs.org>
>
> I can't get the sim 2.3d to boot ultrix 3.1 or xenix or anyother boot tapes
> in the uhs's archive. I have compiled the pdp11 emulator with gcc-3.4.6. I
> am also interested in the OS Tim Berners-Lee used to write his first
> browser. VMS on a VAX machine I have read. Is there anything like this in
> the archive? A VAX emulator and VMS OS?
>
> Bill
On Apr 18, 2006, at 9:00 PM, pups-request(a)minnie.tuhs.org wrote:
> ----- Forwarded message from Bill Cunningham <billcu1(a)verizon.net>
> -----
>
> Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 20:32:27 -0400
> From: "Bill Cunningham" <billcu1(a)verizon.net>
> Subject: Bob's emulator and ultrix
> To: <wkt(a)tuhs.org>
>
> I can't get the sim 2.3d to boot ultrix 3.1 or xenix or anyother
> boot tapes
> in the uhs's archive. I have compiled the pdp11 emulator with
> gcc-3.4.6. I
> am also interested in the OS Tim Berners-Lee used to write his first
> browser. VMS on a VAX machine I have read.
Doubtful. Everything I have read leads me to believe that Tim Berners-
Lee wrote the first web browser on using a NeXT cube running an early
version (2.x or earlier) of the NEXTSTEP operating system.
> Is there anything like this in
> the archive? A VAX emulator and VMS OS?
>
> Bill
> ----- End forwarded message -----
--
Milo Velimirović
University of Wisconsin - La Crosse
La Crosse, Wisconsin 54601 USA
43 48 48 N 91 13 53 W
--
There's a reason Dennis Ritchie and Ken Thompson have been awarded
the U.S. National Medal of Technology (1998) and are fellows of the
Computer History Museum Online. Dave Cutler hasn't and isn't.
"You are not expected to understand this."
>
> By the way, are there releases of Xenix that run on PDP-hardware?
> I've only ever heard of PC (8086+)-based ones.
I believe there was a version of Xenix for the PDP-11 but Xenix is
based on SYSIII which I understand is not covered by the ancient Unix
license. Of course, if it is, I would love a copy of SYSIII. :-)
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill(a)cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill(a)cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
>> By the way, are there releases of Xenix that run on PDP-hardware?
>> I've only ever heard of PC (8086+)-based ones.
>
> There were. On 23 March 2002 Martin Crehan started a thread on this
> list, including a cite to this Slashdot posting: http://slashdot.org/
> comments.pl?sid=29920&cid=3213453
>
> I would link to the thread, but the search seems broken (http://
> minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/pups.cgi)
>
> Apart from the PDP-11 version mentioned there, I am also aware of the
> Lisa XENIX port (68K).
And also a8K version for the Tandy 16/6000 series. I still have
it, but don't use it anymore. It probably wouldn't even boot at
this point.
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill(a)cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill(a)cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
On 23-Mar-06, at 2:57 PM, Robin wrote:
> Ah,
>
> That’s a good suggestion. I’ll dig my way round the redhat config
> stuff and see if I can find one to switch off.
>
>
Look at "iptables".
--Toby
>
>
> Robin
>
>
>
> From: Toby Thain [mailto:toby@smartgames.ca]
> Sent: 23 March 2006 06:37
> To: robinb(a)ruffnready.co.uk
> Subject: Re: [pups] Supnik Emulator on Redhat Linux
>
>
>
>
>
> On 20-Mar-06, at 1:54 PM, Robin wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I have successfully got the supnik emulator up and running on
> redhat but have hit a problem, which is probably configuration and
> serves to show how little I know about more recent unices.
>
>
>
> To allow computer to emulator comms I have installed a second card
> and enabled it under linux. It is enabled with a different address
> to the first one 192.168.1.10 and 192.168.1.11. The emulator can
> see both of the devices and I have attached device 1 (eth1) as xq0.
>
>
>
> I run up BSD2.11 on the emulator and it attaches to the ether
> device at start up.
>
>
>
> I can ftp from the emulator to the host and back again if I start
> ftp on the emulator.
>
>
>
> I can’t telnet to the host.
>
>
>
> I can’t telnet from the host to the emulator.
>
>
>
> I can’t ftp from the host to the emulator.
>
>
>
> I also can’t telnet in from a telnet session to the listening
> socket set up for a DZ11 (I could before I started trying to get
> the networking up).
>
>
>
> Ideas anyone?
>
>
>
>
>
> Sounds like firewall to me.
>
>
>
> --Toby
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Robin
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> PUPS mailing list
>
> PUPS(a)minnie.tuhs.org
>
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups
>
>
>
>
Hi,
I have successfully got the supnik emulator up and running on redhat but
have hit a problem, which is probably configuration and serves to show how
little I know about more recent unices.
To allow computer to emulator comms I have installed a second card and
enabled it under linux. It is enabled with a different address to the first
one 192.168.1.10 and 192.168.1.11. The emulator can see both of the devices
and I have attached device 1 (eth1) as xq0.
I run up BSD2.11 on the emulator and it attaches to the ether device at
start up.
I can ftp from the emulator to the host and back again if I start ftp on the
emulator.
I can't telnet to the host.
I can't telnet from the host to the emulator.
I can't ftp from the host to the emulator.
I also can't telnet in from a telnet session to the listening socket set up
for a DZ11 (I could before I started trying to get the networking up).
Ideas anyone?
Robin
Hi,
I've found the documentation for most of the major
troff preprocessors and macros packages, but I can't
seem to find anything but occasional references to a
paper on the "Programmer's Memorandum Macros" (troff -mm)
by Smith and Mashey.
I'm hoping some of you may have better insight into
the matter...
-aw
