TUHS

tuhs@tuhs.org

20 participants
6516 discussions

Re: [TUHS] attachments: MIME and uuencode

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: Dan Cross > why did you consider it such a step forward? I'm really curious about > the reasoning from folks involved with such things at the time. This was N layers up from my zone of responsibility when I was on the IESG (which was the internetwork layer), and I don't recall any discussion about it on the IESG (although if you really care, there might be minutes - I don't recall when IESG minutes started, though, perhaps this was before that). That lack of any memory may be nothing more than a sign of my fading memory, but it could mean it wasn't a very contentious topic. FWIW, here's my current analysis of the issues; I doubt my analysis then would have been substantially different. The fundamental thing that email does is send something - originally a section of text - from party A to party B in a way that requires no previous setup or interaction: party B can be anyone in the entire universe of entities which support that service. MIME is an extension of this model to carry other types of data: images, etc. There is a very good analogy to the pre-existing real-world mail system: that too allows one to send things to anyone without prior special arrangement, and it supports not only transferring text, but also sending more than that - physical objects. This pre-existing system argues that this model of operation is i) useful, and ii) issues raised by it have probably mostly been worked through. So the extension of email to carry more than just text seems like a very plausible extension. For the 'average' user, the ability to include images in email is a huge improvement over any alternative. Any kind of 'pull' model (in which the receiver has to do something to retrieve the data later from some sort of server) requires access to such a server on the part of the sender; use of a 'push' model (in which data is sent in the same way as text, as part of a single transfer) is clearly better. Security issues raised by sending binary data through email are a separate question, but I note that those issues will mostly still exist no matter how the binary data is transferred. (E.g. the binary might contain a virus no matter whether it's transferred via SMTP or FTP.) The ability of email to send to anyone does raise issues in this context, but this margin is not big enough to fully explore them. I also do get a little uncomfortable when email is used instead of a file transfer system, for very large files, etc, etc. The thing is that the email system was not designed to transfer really huge objects (although the size allowed has been going up over time). The store-and-forward model of the email system is not really ideal for huge objects, etc, etc. But having said all that, the extension of the email model to send content other than pure text - images, etc - still seems like a good idea to me. Noel

8 years, 2 months

Move the uucp/news stuff off-list?

by Warren Toomey

All, there might be a flurry of e-mails as the uucp/news stuff gets set up. I think we should move the actual setup messages off-list and keep TUHS for anecdotes & questions about the old systems. Sound OK? If so, I can set up another list. I noticed that seismo is not as well connected (historically) as decvax, so I've turned seismo into decvax, and I now have three systems on three physically different boxes: munnari ----------- decvax ---------- inhp4 at home simh.tuhs.org minnie.tuhs.org behind NAT 5000 5000 I'm happy to pass either decvax or inhp4 onto someone if someone else really wants one of them. Cheers, Warren

8 years, 2 months

MacOS X is Unix (tm)

by David

> On Dec 31, 2016, at 8:58 AM, tuhs-request(a)minnie.tuhs.org wrote: > > From: Michael Kjörling <michael(a)kjorling.se> > To: tuhs(a)tuhs.org > Subject: Re: [TUHS] Historic Linux versions not on kernel.org > Message-ID: <20161231111339.GK576(a)yeono.kjorling.se> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > I might be colored by the fact that I'm running Linux myself, but I'd > say that those are almost certainly worth preserving somehow, > somewhere. Linux and OS X are the Unix-like systems people are most > likely to come in contact with these days MacOS X is a certified Unix (tm) OS. Not Unix-Like. http://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/apple.htm It has been so since 10.0. Since 10.5 (Leopard) it has been so noted on the above Open Group page. The Open Group only lists the most recent release however. The Tech Brief for 10.7 (http://images.apple.com/media/us/osx/2012/docs/OSX_for_UNIX_Users_TB_July20…) also notes the compliance. David

8 years, 2 months

Re: [TUHS] B-news source code

by Doug McIlroy

> Wouldn't [> in quoted mail] have happened first in email, like Mail or mailx? Mailx doesn't do it now, so it probably didn't do it then. doug

8 years, 2 months

Linux displacing UnixWare on the PC architecture

by Josh Good

On 2017 Mar 9, 21:26, Josh Good wrote: > > And by the way, the two user limit in the "Personal Edition" of UnixWare > 2.1 seems to be real: > > $ telnet 172.27.101.128 > Trying 172.27.101.128... > Connected to 172.27.101.128. > Escape character is '^]'. > > > UnixWare 2.1 (gollum1) (pts/2) > > login: jgood > Password: > UnixWare 2.1 > gollum1 > Copyright 1996 The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc. All Rights > Reserved. > Copyright 1984-1995 Novell, Inc. All Rights Reserved. > Copyright 1987, 1988 Microsoft Corp. All Rights Reserved. > U.S. Pat. No. 5,349,642 > Last login: Tue Mar 9 20:57:05 1999 on pts000 > telnetd: set_id() failed: Too many users > . > Connection closed by foreign host. > > > This thing was released in 1996. Obviously, with this limitation it could > not hold a candle to the emerging Linux tsunammi full of free source code. On the subject of Linux displacing UnixWare on the PC architecture in the mid-90's, I've found this most illuminating Usenet thread from 1994, whose participants include Alan Cox, Theo Tso, and some Novell Product Managers: http://tech-insider.org/linux/research/1994/1025.html And what came after that, as they say, is history. -- Josh Good

8 years, 2 months

Help request: uucp, mail on 4.2BSD

by Warren Toomey

Hi all, as part of my effort to recreate part of a simulated Usenet, I'm trying to bring up uucp, then mail, then C-news on 4.2BSD boxes. I've got a hardwired serial port between them, and I can see a basic uucp conversation when I do this: munnari.oz# /usr/lib/uucp/uucico -r1 -sseismo -x7 uucp seismo (3/6-8:04-132) DEBUG (ENABLED) . . . uucp seismo (3/6-8:04-132) SUCCEEDED (call to seismo ) imsg >\015\012\020< Shere\000imsg >\020< ROK\000msg-ROK Rmtname seismo, Role MASTER, Ifn - 5, Loginuser - uucp . . . I tried e-mail to seismo!wkt and wkt(a)seismo.UUCP but it's been deferred. I now need some help with the sendmail config. I did play around with sendmail.cf/mc way back, but it never involved uucp so I'm stuck. Anybody want to help (and dust out those cobwebs at the same time)? Thanks, Warren

8 years, 2 months

C-news is built

by Warren Toomey

OK, Geoff Collyer has built the C-News binaries for the 4.2 emulated systems. They are temporarily at http://minnie.tuhs.org/Y5/Cnews/ Does someone want to try and get them up and running on an emulated system? Also, I've build a 4.3BSD version of the emulated uucp systems. It's a separate branch at https://github.com/DoctorWkt/4bsd-uucp. You can get it by doing: git clone https://github.com/DoctorWkt/4bsd-uucp.git \ --branch 4.3BSD --single-branch Once it's solid enough I will make this the default branch, but I'll leave the 4.2BSD branch there as well. Thanks Geoff! Warren

8 years, 2 months

Re: [TUHS] "Open" Stanford University Network System, et al [was RT/PC-centric AIX history]

by Clem Cole

On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 8:15 AM, Jason Stevens < jsteve(a)superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote: > > That almost reminds me to ask about the whole "open" Stanford 68000 board > that became the Cisco AGS, and SUN 100.. and I think SGi 1000 > Jason -- I'm not sure what you are trying to say. It was a different time, different culture, different rules. Note: Please I'm not accusing you of this, but I worry you are getting dangerous close to an error that I see made by a lot of folks that grew in the time of the GPL and the "Open Source Culture." My apologies in advance if you think I'm going a little too far, but I want to make something clear that seems to have been lost in time and culture. I do not want to be see as harassing or "shaming" in anyway way. I want to make a point for everyone since the words we use do matter (and I realize I screw them up myself often enough).. I am fairly certain that the "SUN board" - aka the Stanford University Network 68000 board, like UNIX itself was licensed IP. You are correct that the schematics (like the UNIX sources) were well known at the time and "open" in the sense that all of the licenses had them. It was not hard to find papers with a much of the design described. In fact Andy had worked on a similar set of boards when he was a CMU a few years earlier for what we called the "distributed front-end" project (the earlier version was much weaker and had started as Intel chip of sometime which I have forgotten and switched to the 68000 at some point - Phil Karn might remember and even have a copy, I think my copy has been lost to time). Anyway, to build and sell a Multibus board based on Andy's design that he did at Stanford as a grad student, you needed a license from Stanford. You are correct a lot of firms, particularly Cisco, later VLSI Technology - ney Sun Micro Systems, Imagen, and host of took out licenses to build that board. Thus a lot of companies built "JAWS" (just another workstation - so called "3M systems" with a disk), or sometimes diskless terminals as Andy had imagined it in his papers, or purpose built boxes such the AGS router and the Imagen printers. But I flinch a little when I see people call the "SUN" an "open" design. It was "well know" but it was not what we might call "Free and Open" today. I admit you just said "open" in your reply to Charlie and may have meant something different; but so many people today leave the "free" off when they say "open." *i.e.* People often incorrect deny that Unix was open as it actually always was from the beginning -- if you had a license, it just was not "free" to get same. My point is that I believe a license for the "SUN" was from Stanford was not "free" either. Same with the the "MIPS" chip technology of a few years later also from Stanford. So, I would have been happier if you had said something that had included the words "licensed from Stanford." Anyway, Research Universities, such as MIT, Stanford and frankly my own CMU, have long been known for charging for licenses (not always mind you). In fact, I laud my other institution, because I have always said the real father of "free and open source" is my old thesis advisor, the late Don Pederson. In the late 1960s, he founded the UCB EE "Industrial Liaison Program" which was the auspicious institution that original "BSD" tape would be released years later. When he first released the first version of "Simulation Program for Integrate Circuit Evaluation" - aka SPICE, in approx 67 time frame "dop" said: *"I always have given away our work. It means we get to go in the back door and talk to the engineers. My colleagues at some of the other places license there work and they have go in the front door like any other salesman."* When the CS group was added to EE a few years later, their was history, mechanism, etc. Berkeley had been release source code for a lots of different project. The Berkeley Software Distribution for Unix V6 was just the the drop for UNIX - who knew at the time the life it wold spawn (although I note SPICE is still being used, so even with UNIX's success, SPICE still hold the record for the "longest" used" BSD release code). Anyway, " do p" used to love to remind the students of that mantra. And he came up with it 20-25 years before Eric Raymond ever wrote his book and started equating "open" with "Stallmanism." ;-) I hope have a great one, and I hope I did not offend. Clem

8 years, 2 months

uucp setup

by William Pechter

One note for those who've been away from 4.x for a while... If you're using a console window for editing and you just wonder why the full screen of the VT100 doesn't show up -- it's because the getty is set down at 1200 baud for the good old LA120 DECwriter III. Set /etc/ttys to 18console or 12console and it's expects 9600baud and then vi will let you use full screen to edit. Been a while since I ran a fake Vax under Unix. Bill

8 years, 2 months

Re: [TUHS] RT/PC-centric AIX history

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: Jason Stevens > it also appears that AOS was the router backbone of the NSFNet once > they started to migrate off of the IMPs Say what? IMPs were only every used in the ARPANET (and networks built by BBN for private clients using that technology). The first routers used in the NSFNET were things called Fuzzballs - PDP-11's running software from Dave Mills, driving 56KB lines. They eventually decided they needed to step up a level, and a consortium involving IBM won, with IBM RT PC's running AIX driving T1 lines. Noel

8 years, 2 months

RT/PC-centric AIX history

by Charles H Sauer

I've refrained from jumping into AIX & RT/PC discussions on TUHS. It seems more appropriate to summarize AIX history than try to correct or clarify specifics out of context. I wrote about 5 pages, got feedback, revised accordingly, and posted at https://notes.technologists.com/notes/2017/03/08/lets-start-at-the-very-beg…. Charlie

8 years, 2 months

Re: [TUHS] UUCP: working systems, come and get them

by Warren Toomey

On Thu, Mar 09, 2017 at 01:57:05PM +0100, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > Is it ok to do experimental testing with that host? I've never set up > uucp, so I do not yet know quit what I'm doing. Neither have I! But yes, feel free. In yur SimH .ini file, put (or change) this line to say: attach dz line=0,Connect=simh.tuhs.org:5000 which will connect /dev/tty00 to simh.tuhs.org port 5000. Then set up your L.sys file with a line that says: seismo Any;9 DIR 9600 tty00 "" "" ogin:--ogin:--ogin: uucp ssword: uucp so that the uucp site seismo can be contacted via /dev/tty00. Then you can try doing: # echo hello there | mail seismo\!root <wait a few seconds> # /usr/lib/uucp/uucico -r1 -sseismo -x7 and you should see the debug information with parts of the uucp conversation. Cheers, Warren

8 years, 2 months

Re: [TUHS] UUCP: working systems, come and get them

by Cory Smelosky

On Thu, Mar 9, 2017, at 18:02, Warren Toomey wrote: > On Thu, Mar 09, 2017 at 05:57:00PM -0800, Cory Smelosky wrote: > > # grep -i "tty00" /etc/ttys > > #tty00 "/etc/getty std.9600" unknown on secure > > > > # tip dialer > > /dev/tty00: Permission denied > > You need to chown uucp /dev/tty00 I think! > > Cheers, Warren > Email had 1 attachment: > + signature.asc > 1k (application/pgp-signature) That did it. -- Cory Smelosky b4(a)gewt.net

8 years, 3 months

Re: [TUHS] UUCP: working systems, come and get them

by Warren Toomey

On Thu, Mar 09, 2017 at 04:01:09PM -0700, John Floren wrote: > Well, I'm trying to set up lanl-a, it's at 199.180.255.235:6666 > (theoretically). I've set it up to point at seismo but uucico hangs > waiting for the login prompt. OK, try this: Edit your /etc/remote file to say this for dialer: dialer:dv=/dev/tty00:br#9600: Now try: # tip dialer which should connect out over /dev/tty00 to seismo via the TCP connection. Hit Return a few times to see if there is any response. On your host system, do netstat -a | grep ESTAB and see if there is a TCP connection to simh.tuhs.org:5000. I also forgot. To be able to send e-mail, you need to add seismo to the list of known remote sites in /usr/lib/sendmail.cf: CWseismo Cheers, Warren

8 years, 3 months

Re: [TUHS] Harasing whistlers (Was: UUCP mis-history?)

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: "Steve Johnson" > This reminds me of a story from that era. One of the mainframe computers > had the ability to place phone calls and a program was run every night > to collect data from far-flung teletypes [which had been pre-loaded with > data tapes]. ... On day the operators realized that there were two > phone numbers in Nebraska that were getting called every weekday night, > and the numbers were very similar. They suspected one was a wrong > number, so they listened in on the calls to see which one was real. The > phone rang in Nebraska at 2am and was answered by a sleepy man .. The > man was heard to say "It's all right, Bertha. It's just that nut with a > whistle again!" Interesting: I've heard this same story, but told about TIPs and the ARPANET. A computer at BBN was set up to regularly dial all the TIP modem lines, to check that they were working. One line was always down, so they listened in, and heard some human say "it's just that pevert with the whistle again". I wonder which one was the original: anyone know for sure? Noel

8 years, 3 months

Re: [TUHS] UUCP: working systems, come and get them

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: Warren Toomey > attach dz line=0,Connect=simh.tuhs.org:5000 > > which will connect /dev/tty00 Provided that /dev/tty00 exists, and the major device type is set to the cdevsw index for the DZ in whatever Unix you are using, and the minor device is set to the correct value to DZ #0, line #0.... :-) Noel

8 years, 3 months

Re: [TUHS] Historical uucp maps?

by norman＠oclsc.org

Warning Toomey: In ASCII at http://www.redace.org/html/logical_usenet_map_1984.html === That's no UUCP map. It's a USENET map: a map of netnews propagation. No, they're not the same at all: many places that used UUCP to exchange mail didn't participate in netnews. In particular I see a site I used to run with none of its important mail links like ihnp4, and only a link to a system I don't remember at all. I had left that site a few weeks before that map was published, but I stayed in touch with the folks there; had all the mail links been torn down I'd have known. Had someone decided it was worth while dipping a toe into netnews, though (something I never bothered with) I might not. In fact I suspect it would be difficult to find believable maps for UUCP except amongst major forwarders. At its peak it was an extremely informal network, with lots of links that weren't published anywhere because people at site A wanted to keep in touch with those at sites B and C but didn't want to pay the bills to forward mail between B and C, let alone between those sites and places twelve time zones away. Norman Wilson Toronto ON

8 years, 3 months

Historical uucp maps?

by Warren Toomey

We are going to need some historical uucp maps so that we can construct our simulated uucp network which bears some resemblance to the past. There is a 1984 map on pages 7 to 14 of http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Documentation/AUUGN/AUUGN-V05.4.pdf As Dave mentioned, we need some key sites like ihnp4, cbosgd etc. What other key sites? Any volunteers to run some of them? Warren

8 years, 3 months

observations on Unix v6's mount command

by Mark Longridge

I was trying to look at mini-unix so I mounted the disk image inside unix v6 via: /etc/mount /dev/rk4 /usr/mini-unix and I noticed that if I ran the mount command as a user and not root that /etc/mtab would not be updated (but it was updated as expected as root). Of course /etc/mtab is owned by root :) Then I noticed something else when I did an ls in the /usr directory: drwxrwxrwx 20 31 368 Sep 3 1976 mini-unix Normally I would see things like: drwxrwxr-x 2 bin 48 May 13 1975 adm What does the 31 mean? Mark

8 years, 3 months

UUCP mis-history?

by Dave Horsfall

http://www.thefullwiki.org/UUCP ``UUCP was originally written at AT&T Bell Laboratories, by Mike Lesk, and early versions of UUCP are sometimes referred to as System V UUCP.'' Err, it was V7, wasn't it? That considerably predates SysV... -- Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU) "Those who don't understand security will suffer."

8 years, 3 months

UUCP Recreation Network

by Cory Smelosky

Okay - let's make this an easy-to-dredge-through thread so I can easily search for stuff later. What means of interconnection are we going to use? I should be able to provide: 1). Actual dial-in (probably not anything above 1200 baud...if I am lucky) 2). SIMH "virtual leased line" dial-in 3). Network mail A map/list of interconnections would be nice. Need a central database somewhere. -- Cory Smelosky b4(a)gewt.net

8 years, 3 months

C News: help!

by Warren Toomey

OK, C News is a bit more complicated than I expected :) The latest version is at ftp://ftp.cs.toronto.edu/pub/c-news/ AFAIKT and a printable install guide at http://ftp.cc.uoc.gr/infosystems/news/transport/cnews/doc/guide.ps.gz Are there any C News experts out there who might be able to help? Can we encourage Henry or Geoff to help at all? Cheers, Warren

8 years, 3 months

Re: [TUHS] Source code abundance?

by Doug McIlroy

> [a] case where AT&T attempted to see whether its Unix code had been stolen > Coherent? I doubt it. The only access to Coherent that I am aware of was Dennis's site visit (recounted in Wikipedia, no less). Steve's Yacc adventure probably concerned another company. Besides the affairs of Coherent and Yacc, there was a guy in Massachusetts who sold Unix-tool lookalikes; I don't remember his name. We were suspicious and checked his binaries against our source--bingo! At the same time, our patent lawyer happened to be negotiating cross-licenses with DEC. DEC had engaged the very plagiarist as an expert to support their claim that AT&T's pile of patents didn't measure up to theirs. After a day of bargaining, our lawyer somehow managed to bring casual conversation around to the topic of stolen code and eventually offered the suspect a peek at a real example. He readily agreed that the disassembled binary on the one hand must have been compiled from the source code on the other. In a Perry Mason moment, the lawyer pounced: "Would it surprise you if I told you that this is ours and that is yours?" The discredited expert didn't appear at next day's meeting. The lawyer returned to Murray Hill aglow about his coup. The product soon disappeared from the market. Doug

8 years, 3 months

UUCP History [was Re: Help request: uucp, mail on 4.2BSD]

by Dan Cross

On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 5:04 PM, Dave Horsfall <dave(a)horsfall.org> wrote: > On Tue, 7 Mar 2017, Dan Cross wrote: > > > One or more microcomputer BBS (Bulletin Board System) platforms had UUCP > > support to bridge their store-and-forward messaging networks to USENET > > and send email, etc. The implementation I remember off the top of my > > head was Waffle, written by Tom Dell. [...] > > Was this the UUCP that was available for CP/M? I found it on the old > Walnut Creek CD, moved it over to my CP/M box via SneakerNet (I ran CP/M > for years, carefully avoiding DOS/WinDoze) and it worked; it was overlaid > to hell and back hence really slow, but it worked. > Maybe? Though I tend to doubt it. It looks like Waffle originally ran on the Apple II, but was fairly quickly ported to DOS and then Unix/Xenix. I believe it was written in C, but the source code is not generally available. More information on it is here: http://software.bbsdocumentary.com/IBM/DOS/WAFFLE/ As I mentioned before, the BBS thing was kind of interesting. What strikes me, however, is how closely the timing lines up with developments in the Unix world. As Jacob mentions earlier, UUCP was "published" in February 1978 and an improved version distributed with 7th Edition in October of that year. The first BBS was announced via an article in the November 1978 edition of Byte magazine (available online, with some information here: https://www.wired.com/2010/02/0216cbbs-first-bbs-bulletin-board/) For those that don't know, the whole idea behind a BBS was that a person with a computer (usually a microcomputer), a modem, and a POTS phone line (usually into the person's house) would run software on the machine that answered the phone when called (assumed the remote caller was using a modem, of course) and presented the remote user with an interface for interacting with the local machine: most often, this was menu based. Most often, the BBS only had one phone line and the functionality was limited: sending and receiving simple messages, uploading and downloading files using protocols like x- y- and zmodem (or kermit!) and maybe playing specially written games. However, some BBSs became quite sophisticated supporting multiple lines, interactive chat, multiplayer games and so forth. Early software was mostly homebrew (the Byte article talks about software *and* hardware), but eventually packaged systems emerged. There was even a commercial marketplace for BBS software. Around 1984, they developed a messaging "network" called Fidonet for routing email and sending files around; the goal was to minimize long-distance telephone charges by relaying things through nodes in the network that were geographically "close" to the next calling region and transmitting things in batch. Think USENET (which predated it by several years) but much smaller in scope. The Internet killed it for the most part, of course, but these things developed quite the following; some are even still running, though most are now accessible via telnet/ssh. Somewhat confusingly, some of the operators seem to think they are some kind of alternative to the "Internet" instead of just another application of the net. It's sort of an odd viewpoint, but I think it comes from not being altogether all that savvy: it was mostly a hobbyist thing. But in the BBS heyday, there was something like 100,000 of them in North America alone. Sorry for the wall of text, but I think the parity between the rise of BBSs and UUCP/USENET is interesting. - Dan C.

8 years, 3 months

Re: [TUHS] Help request: uucp, mail on 4.2BSD

by Warren Toomey

Warren wrote: > > I might call for participation > > in a uucp/Usenet reconstruction with people running simulated nodes on > > the Internet. On Wed, Mar 08, 2017 at 07:47:30AM +0100, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > Are modern systems welcome? I always wanted a bang path address! I can't see why not, as long as you can simulate a serial connection with a TCP connection, and can speak uucp. Cheers, Warren

8 years, 3 months

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TUHS