For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early history of C
compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and Snyder at Bell.
Especially for x86. Anyone have tales?
Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX?
Perspective from a friend...
Warner
---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk(a)phk.freebsd.dk>
Date: Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 2:24 AM
Subject: non-Bell C compiler
To: <imp(a)freebsd.org>
I noticed the "non-bell C" thread on TUHS and can add a data point
from datamuseum.dk:
The Danish Company "Christian Rovsing A/S" evidently had a C-compiler
for their CR80 mini computer, and my guess is that they created it
in order to qualify for DoD contracts in the POSIX regime.
Example C source:
https://datamuseum.dk/aa//cr80/80/802c73092.html
Listing file from the compiler:
https://datamuseum.dk/aa//cr80/ef/ef65339dc.html
Listing file from the assembler:
http://datamuseum.dk/aa/cr80/32/32ef5456f.html
Listing from the linker:
https://datamuseum.dk/aa//cr80/17/170304129.html
So far we have not spotted the actual compiler anywhere
in the media we have read.
Mention of C being used for project delivery:
http://datamuseum.dk/aa/cr80/1c/1c0b47f0e.html
And btw: That one is from a CDC disc-pack which a father+son
team has read by building a SMD-USB converter.
That project may be interesting in the TUHS domain as well:
https://github.com/Datamuseum-DK/pico-smd-controller
--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk(a)FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
I've been using some variant of Linux (currently Debian 12) as my
primary OS for daily activities (email, web, programming, photo
editing, etc.) for the past twenty years or so. Prior to that it was
FreeBSD for nearly ten years after short stints with Minix and Linux
when they first came out. At the time (early/mid 90's), I was working
for Bell Labs and had a ready supply of SCSI drives salvaged from
retired equipment. I bought a Seagate ST-01A ISA SCSI controller for
whatever 386/486 I owned at the time and installed Slackware floppy by
floppy.
When I upgraded to a Pentium PC for home, Micron P90 I think, I
installed a PCI SCSI controller (Tekram DC-390 equipped with an
NCR53c8xx chip) to make use of my stash of drives. Under Linux it was
never entirely stable. I asked on Usenet and someone suggested trying
the other SCSI driver. This was the ncr driver that had been ported
from FreeBSD. My stability problems went away and I decided to take a
closer look at FreeBSD. It reminded me of SunOS from the good old pre-
System V era along with the version of Unix I had used in grad school
in the late 70's/early 80's so I switched.
I eventually reverted back to Linux because it was clear that the user
community was getting much larger, I was using it professionally at
work and there was just a larger range of applications available.
Lately, I find myself getting tired of the bloat and how big and messy
and complicated it has all gotten. Thinking of looking for something
simpler and was just wondering what do other old timers use for their
primary home computing needs?
Jeff
Because I sometimes use ArcMap, I run Windows. Cygwin plus the sam editor
make me feel at home. The main signs of Microsoft are the desktop, Bing,
File Explorer and Task Manager.
Hello everyone, I reach out in my time of need regarding a potential source of DMERT materials. I've recently come into possession of a hard disk unit from a 5ESS switch, presumably the 5ESS-2000 variant, part UN 375G:
https://i.imgur.com/yQzY5Hs.jpeg
The actual disk itself appears to be a Ultra320 SCSI disk, which I unfortunately do not have the tools to do anything with myself. After looking into various solutions, I'm not getting the warm fuzzies about finding the necessary hardware on my first shot, these sorts of hardware specifics are not my strong suit. The story I got is it is from a working system, so could possibly have artifacts, but at the same time, I've already sunk a little over $1,000 into getting this, I'm hesitant to drop more on hardware I'm not 100% confident is correct for the job.
Does anyone have any recommendations, whether a service, hardware, anything, that I could use to try and get at what is on this disk? Even if it's just sending it off to someone along with enough storage for them to make me a dd image of the thing, I just feel so close yet so far on finally figuring out if I've managed to land a copy of DMERT.
Thanks in advance for any advice, I'm really hoping that the end of this story is I find DMERT artifacts to get archived and preserved, that would be such a satisfying conclusion to all this 3B20/5ESS study as of late. I wish I had the resources to see the rest through myself but this is getting into an area I have quite a bit of trepidation regarding. What I don't want to do is inadvertently damage something by getting it wrong.
- Matt G.
[image: unnamed.png]
CCA EMACS? That's a name I have not heard in a long time ...
I forgot if I'm not allowed to load images, sorry if I just made a mistake.
Normally I wouldn't cross the beams like this but a comment thread John
Nagle posted on this HN story is well written and for me was a great read.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39630457
On Wednesday, March 6th, 2024 at 3:55 PM, Ken Thompson <kenbob(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 6, 2024 at 1:45 PM segaloco via TUHS <tuhs(a)tuhs.org> wrote:
>
> > On Wednesday, March 6th, 2024 at 11:53 AM, Douglas McIlroy <douglas.mcilroy(a)dartmouth.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > After Multics, I ran interference to keep our once-burned higher management from frowning too much on further operating-system research.
> > >
> > > Doug
> >
> > This alone is an all-too-valuable skill that contributes to the cultural success of countless projects. Great ideas can too often die on the vine when the upper echelons have quite different opinions of where time and effort should be placed, and I am glad that in my own career I likewise work with understanding immediate supervisors and business analysts that go to bat for our needs and concerns. The importance of a supportive workplace culture in which work is genuinely valued and defended cannot be understated.
> >
> > - Matt G.
>
> unix was written in c, c was written in b, b was written in tmg,and doug wrote tmg. it is all his fault.
>
>
Ken, your modesty is showing :)
I feel the same way about big things I'm working on in my day job. No matter how much folks try to laud me as our architect, nothing I did would exist without what my supervisor years and years ago handed me to start with before he moved on to greener pastures. Invention will always be a group effort, I'm just so glad this particular group effort (re: UNIX) has and continues to have the impact that it does.
A former manager (and respected colleague) would often say "I'm rubber, you're glue, what you bounce off me sticks to you." and it took me a little bit to appreciate what I thought he meant, but even longer to realize that saying encompassed the good as well.
- Matt G.
P.S. Hey Dave, I Bcc'd you, discussions with folks here often remind me of your good advice and management. Hope you're well, would love to hear from you if you see this!
Just to bring it full circle, after a bit of discussion it looks like what Henry is working with is the initial System V release for PDP-11/70, not some fabled PDP-11 SVR2, so the documentation I linked as well as some material on squoze.net concerning System V in SimH all apply directly. Subject adjusted accordingly.
- Matt G.
On Wednesday, March 6th, 2024 at 1:55 PM, Henry Bent <henry.r.bent(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 6 Mar 2024 at 16:51, segaloco <segaloco(a)protonmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, March 6th, 2024 at 1:16 PM, Henry Bent <henry.r.bent(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello all,
>>>
>>> I have a distribution of SVR2 on the PDP-11 that I have managed to get booting into the initial root dump, but it is not clear to me how to proceed from there to format a /usr filesystem and setup for multi-user.
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>> I haven't managed to find any installation manuals or the like on Bitsavers, and I can't even manage to find a listing in the source of the expected disk partitions/sizes. I feel very much like I am stumbling in the dark here and would appreciate any pointers to how to proceed. Thanks!
>>>
>>> -Henry
>>
>> First off I didn't know SVR2 made it to the PDP-11, I thought they cut it off after the initial System V release, is what you have AT&T or some derivative version?
>>
>> Second, this is the setup instructions for DEC processors for the initial release of System V which included the PDP-11/70: https://archive.org/details/unix-system-administrators-guide-5-0/04%20Setti…
>>
>> Additionally, here is the Operator's Guide which details bootstrapping the system among other things: https://archive.org/details/unix-system-operators-guide-release-5-0/mode/2up
>>
>> While not SVR2, hopefully the differences are minimal enough that you can use those. Good luck!
>>
>> Also regarding finding more documentation, sadly AT&T stripped out the /usr/doc materials with System V, so these critical pieces of documentation actually can't be found in a typical system distribution, rather, you had to get the paper copies. I'm not aware of any discovery of TROFF sources for any of this stuff past System III, I do have it on my long-term list to eventually synthesize copies of said documents from available scans so they can be more easily diff'd, but my current focus is much, much earlier.
>
> Thank you, this is a wonderful starting point. I often forget that sometimes archive.org will have documentation that is not duplicated in other sources, so this is a welcome reminder. I'll read through all of this and report back.
>
> -Henry
Hello all,
I have a distribution of SVR2 on the PDP-11 that I have managed to get
booting into the initial root dump, but it is not clear to me how to
proceed from there to format a /usr filesystem and setup for multi-user.
The root dump boots on a simulated 11/70 with an RP06:
--
sim> boot rp
#0=unixgdtm
UNIX/sysV: unixgdtm
real mem = 3145728 bytes
avail mem = 3068864 bytes
INIT: SINGLE USER MODE
--
I'm mostly a BSD person but I'm familiar enough with some later SysV
systems. That being said, the initialization procedure here is completely
foreign to me. I have cpio files for the entire system and I know in
theory how to extract them, but I'm stuck at the basics of creating /usr,
setting up /etc and the like. I have a fully extracted filesystem from the
cpio files that I can browse but I can't find enough information in the
manpages. I haven't managed to find any installation manuals or the like
on Bitsavers, and I can't even manage to find a listing in the source of
the expected disk partitions/sizes. I feel very much like I am stumbling
in the dark here and would appreciate any pointers to how to proceed.
Thanks!
-Henry
