TUHS July 2000

tuhs@tuhs.org

9 participants
10 discussions

by norman＠nose.cita.utoronto.ca

I've assembled some notes from old manuals and other sources on the formats used for on-disk file systems through the Seventh Edition: http://www.cita.utoronto.ca/~norman/old-unix/old-fs.html Additional notes, comments on style, and whatnot are welcome. (It may be sensible to send anything in the last two categories directly to me, rather than to the whole list.)

2 years, 7 months

Re: [pups] Overlays?

by Steven M. Schultz

HI! > From: Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.eu.org> > I've just installed 2.11BSD on one of my PDPs, from a TK50 tape I just > re-discovered in the trunk of my car. And now I'm in the process of Wow - those TK50s are quite robust to survive being stored in the truck of a car. I've had audio tapes that did not survive ;) > applying patches. When I installed patch 412 and started to rebuild the > kernel, ld complains with a "ld: too big for type 431". > Does this means that I have to rearrange stuff between the BASE and the > various OV entries? Indeed it does mean exactly that. > How can I find out which overlay is too big? I've tried to do a: > 138% root--> size unix.o Yep - that is the correct method. > text data bss dec hex > 52352 6928 37622 96902 17a86 total text: 115520 > overlays: 7680,7232,7808,7744,4864,8576,4736,6848,7680 > > How big is too big? And also if none of the overlays above are too big, I > guess it must be the BASE that is too big? I thought I wrote this up at one time but I may have only thought about it ;) > Is there some sort of documentation anywhere that describe this voodoo > stuff and black magic a bit? Is it in one an Appendix to the "Setup&Installation" document? In the case above it is OV6 (overlays are numbered from 1) that is too big. The rules are: 1) BASE can be 56kb (57344) max 2) OVerlays can be 8kb (8192) max 3) There can be no 0 length overlays (except for the very last one). > Any suggestions on what .o file I should move to what overlay? Look at the Makefile - you should see a line that starts "OV6=". Do a "size" on the .o files listed for OV6. Pick one that will fix elsewhere - I'd suggest OV5 since it is only 4864 bytes and has lots of room. You could also move a .o file to the BASE since it has adequate room also. Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA20356 for pups-liszt; Tue, 1 Aug 2000 09:31:49 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Tue Aug 1 03:12:43 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA20352 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 1 Aug 2000 09:31:48 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA18497 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 1 Aug 2000 09:29:49 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA18526 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 1 Aug 2000 03:28:25 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA02116; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:12:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:12:43 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200007311712.KAA02116(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au, rblair(a)webteksdesign.com Subject: Re: [pups] makesimtape.c Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi! > From: "Ryan Blair" <rblair(a)webteksdesign.com> > > While reading back through the mailing list messages, trying to find out why > my tape images never seem to work, I came across a program that I cannot > seem to find. It was mentioned lately as "makesimtape.c" but I cannot find > it anywhere in the archives. Anybody have a lead on this? Yep - I have a lead (not too surprising since I wrote the program :)) I think the program's present in the PUPS archive in the top of the 2.11 tree area but it may have been relocated or whatever over time. Here's the program - it should compile on just about anything that has the 'mtio' ioctl functions. It is very similar to 'maketape' (intentional since makesimtape.c started out as a copy of maketape.c). Steven Schultz moe.2bsd.com -------------------------- /* * @(#)makesimtape.c 2.1 (2.11BSD) 1998/12/31 * Hacked 'maketape.c' to write a file in a format suitable for * use with Bob Supnik's PDP-11 simulator (V2.3) emulated tape * driver. * * NOTE: a PDP-11 has to flip the shorts within the long when writing out * the record size. Seems a PDP-11 is neither a little-endian * machine nor a big-endian one. */ #include <stdio.h> #include <errno.h> #include <fcntl.h> #include <stdlib.h> #include <sys/types.h> #include <sys/stat.h> #include <sys/uio.h> #define MAXB 30 char buf[MAXB * 512]; char name[50]; long recsz, flipped, trl(); int blksz; int mt, fd, cnt; struct iovec iovec[3]; struct iovec tmark[2]; void usage(); main(argc, argv) int argc; char *argv[]; { int i, j = 0, k = 0; long zero = 0; register char *outfile = NULL, *infile = NULL; FILE *mf; struct stat st; while ((i = getopt(argc, argv, "i:o:")) != EOF) { switch (i) { case 'o': outfile = optarg; break; case 'i': infile = optarg; break; default: usage(); /* NOTREACHED */ } } if (!outfile || !infile) usage(); /* NOTREACHED */ /* * Stat the outfile and make sure it either 1) Does not exist, or * 2) Exists but is a regular file. */ if (stat(outfile, &st) != -1 && !(S_ISREG(st.st_mode))) errx(1, "outfile must either not exist or be a regular file"); /* NOTREACHED */ mt = open(outfile, O_WRONLY|O_CREAT|O_TRUNC, 0600); if (mt < 0) err(1, "Can not create %s", outfile); /* NOTREACHED */ mf = fopen(infile, "r"); if (!mf) err(1, "Can not open %s", infile); /* NOTREACHED*/ tmark[0].iov_len = sizeof (long); tmark[0].iov_base = (char *)&zero; while (1) { if ((i = fscanf(mf, "%s %d", name, &blksz))== EOF) exit(0); if (i != 2) { fprintf(stderr,"Help! Scanf didn't read 2 things (%d)\n", i); exit(1); } if (blksz <= 0 || blksz > MAXB) { fprintf(stderr, "Block size %u is invalid\n", blksz); exit(1); } recsz = blksz * 512; /* convert to bytes */ iovec[0].iov_len = sizeof (recsz); #ifdef pdp11 iovec[0].iov_base = (char *)&flipped; #else iovec[0].iov_base = (char *)&recsz; #endif iovec[1].iov_len = (int)recsz; iovec[1].iov_base = buf; iovec[2].iov_len = iovec[0].iov_len; iovec[2].iov_base = iovec[0].iov_base; if (strcmp(name, "*") == 0) { if (writev(mt, tmark, 1) < 0) warn(1, "writev of pseudo tapemark failed"); k++; continue; } fd = open(name, 0); if (fd < 0) err(1, "Can't open %s for reading", name); /* NOTREACHED */ printf("%s: block %d, file %d\n", name, j, k); /* * we pad the last record with nulls * (instead of the bell std. of padding with trash). * this allows you to access text files on the * tape without garbage at the end of the file. * (note that there is no record length associated * with tape files) */ while ((cnt=read(fd, buf, (int)recsz)) == (int)recsz) { j++; #ifdef pdp11 flipped = trl(recsz); #endif if (writev(mt, iovec, 3) < 0) err(1, "writev #1"); /* NOTREACHED */ } if (cnt > 0) { j++; bzero(buf + cnt, (int)recsz - cnt); #ifdef pdp11 flipped = trl(recsz); #endif if (writev(mt, iovec, 3) < 0) err(1, "writev #2"); /* NOTREACHED */ } close(fd); } /* * Write two tape marks to simulate EOT */ writev(mt, tmark, 1); writev(mt, tmark, 1); } long trl(l) long l; { union { long l; short s[2]; } foo; register short x; foo.l = l; x = foo.s[0]; foo.s[0] = foo.s[1]; foo.s[1] = x; return(foo.l); } void usage() { fprintf(stderr, "usage: makesimtape -o outfilefile -i inputfile\n"); exit(1); }

24 years, 4 months

[pups] Overlays?

by Jorgen Pehrson

Hi, I've just installed 2.11BSD on one of my PDPs, from a TK50 tape I just re-discovered in the trunk of my car. And now I'm in the process of applying patches. When I installed patch 412 and started to rebuild the kernel, ld complains with a "ld: too big for type 431". Does this means that I have to rearrange stuff between the BASE and the various OV entries? How can I find out which overlay is too big? I've tried to do a: 138% root--> size unix.o text data bss dec hex 52352 6928 37622 96902 17a86 total text: 115520 overlays: 7680,7232,7808,7744,4864,8576,4736,6848,7680 How big is too big? And also if none of the overlays above are too big, I guess it must be the BASE that is too big? Is there some sort of documentation anywhere that describe this voodoo stuff and black magic a bit? Btw, I've put my makefile is at http://spektr.eu.org/~jp/Makefile.LOKE. Any suggestions on what .o file I should move to what overlay? Thanks! -- Jörgen Pehrson jp(a)spektr.eu.org http://spektr.eu.org/~jp/ ----------------------------------------------------------- "i must say the linux community is a lot nicer than the unix community. a negative comment on unix would warrent death threats. with linux, it is like stirring up a nest of butterflies." -- Ken Thompson. 1999 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA16344 for pups-liszt; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 21:30:05 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Ryan Blair" <rblair(a)webteksdesign.com> Sat Jul 29 07:12:05 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA16340 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 21:30:02 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA16752 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 21:28:06 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us (waverly.k12.mi.us [204.38.93.2]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA01052 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 29 Jul 2000 07:15:21 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from rblair(a)webteksdesign.com) Received: from rbp200 (pm170-19.dialip.mich.net [35.9.15.180]) by scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA84808 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 17:12:41 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rblair(a)webteksdesign.com) Message-ID: <000b01bff8d8$831b6be0$b40f0923@rbp200> From: "Ryan Blair" <rblair(a)webteksdesign.com> To: <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: [pups] makesimtape.c Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 17:12:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk While reading back through the mailing list messages, trying to find out why my tape images never seem to work, I came across a program that I cannot seem to find. It was mentioned lately as "makesimtape.c" but I cannot find it anywhere in the archives. Anybody have a lead on this? Thanks, Ryan Blair rblair(a)webteksdesign.com

24 years, 4 months

[pups] V7 vs RX50 (was Getting a MicroPDP-11 Running)

by norman＠nose.cs.utoronto.ca

400KB floppies, or even 1.4MB ones, may seem tiny now; but they should hardly be undersized for a bare-bones V7 root file system. Remember that disks weren't all that big in the late 1970s, and that one of the important fixes in V7 was that it became possible to make a file system bigger than 32MB. The V7 version of the `Setting Up UNIX' paper doesn't say just how big the root file system dump is, but the instructions say the file system itself should have 5000 blocks: about 2.4MB. If the dump was that big, it would have taken just over 6 RX50 diskettes. (But it probably wasn't that big, because there must have been a good bit of free space in the standard root--/tmp was there too!) I once ran a stripped-down V7 off a single RK05 (2.5MB including swap) for several days, during an air-conditioning crisis. The system wasn't fully-functional, but there was enough there to let the secretarial staff keep up with their typing, and even run troff. The real trouble with the RX50 is not so much the size as the speed: the damn things are painfully slow. I sometimes boot my V10 MicroVAXes from RX50, as part of an experimental Jumpstart-like installation scheme. The bare-bones installation environment requires only two floppies; the real nuisance is that it takes several minutes to read them. And, of course, V7 doesn't have an MSCP driver, since MSCP didn't hit the streets until 1982 or so. Norman Wilson

24 years, 4 months

Re: [pups] 2.11 BSD image booting

by Laurent Canet

> > In the same rut as Andy Valencia: > > I have tried booting the 2.11 BSD distribution that was in the boot images > > directory, it has something like 9 disc pack images, and a script to boot it > > with Supnik. Well, it boots all right, but I can't access most of the > > filesystem, just the root, and even there most of the files seem corrupt. It > > gets even worse when I try to shut it down. It will not even boot back up > > after I shut it down in the emulator. > > I think all the 2.11BSD disk images in Boot_Images are suspect. > I ran the 2.11bsd_on_rl02 without problems on bob supnik's emulator. (you need to issue a mount -a command after booting in order to mount the 4 RL02 disk and the 5 RK packs in correct places) I also ran the 2.11_rp_unknown on bob supnik's emulator and on p11. It worked fine except that password files were corrupted (and contained unknown passwords) So I replaced /etc/passwd*; /etc/master.passwd; /bin/passwd and /etc/mkpasswd (which was no present) with the files of the RL distribution Now it works very good, on p11 emulator under linux 2.2 with networking support. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA78042 for pups-liszt; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:21:13 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 4 months

Re: [pups] Getting a MicroPDP-11 Running

by SHOPPA＠enterprise.trailing-edge.com

>> 2.) Can it be done without a tape? If so, has anybody pulled it off? > A ~32mb disk is going to be very tight for any 2BSD system. V7 will > fit I think. But does V7 have a MSCP disk driver? Recommending to someone that all they have to do is write a driver when they don't even have a running machine yet is, IMHO, a bit optimistic :-). Of course, under the Mentec PDP-11 hobbyist program he could install RT-11 or RSX-11 or MicroRSTS on such a machine quite nicely from a bunch of RX50 or RX33 floppies he made from the Mentec CD-ROM's. >> 3.) Are there any utilities, either DOS or UNIX/Linux/FreeBSD based, to write >> and/or format RX50 floppies? > Hmmm, I thought John Wilson has some utilities that could do that. See ftp://ftp.dbit.com/pub/putr/ How many RX50's would it take to hold a root filesystem dump? 15 or so? It's not *quite* as cruel as the RX01 root distribution we discussed over some Pastrami sandwiches a couple of years back. But it is approaching the "Wagner Ring cycle on convenient 45's" stage! > On the other hand if the controller is an RQDX3 it is possible with > some luck (and more hardware skill than I have ;)) hook up a standard > 5.25" Teac floppy drive. I don't have the location of the info for > that at hand - you might try the alt.sys.pdp11 or vmsnet.pdp-11 > newsgroups (lots of knowing folks hang out there). See ftp://ftp.spc.edu/third-party-disks.txt See, it's these sorts of references we need in the PUPS FAQ list. The same questions come up every month, I give the same pointers, then everybody forgets them again, until I answer the same questions the next month :-). Tim. (shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA78068 for pups-liszt; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:21:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Wilhelm B. Kloke" <wb(a)vestein.arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de> Wed Jul 26 01:43:29 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA78064 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:21:45 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA40100 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:19:53 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from vestein.arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de (vestein.arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de [192.109.44.6]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA75848 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 01:46:28 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wb(a)vestein.arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de) Received: from yorikke.arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de (yorikke [192.109.44.12]) by vestein.arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de (8.9.2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA64551 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 17:45:10 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from wb(a)vestein.arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de) Received: (from wb@localhost) by yorikke.arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA31300 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 17:43:29 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from wb) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 17:43:29 +0200 (MET DST) From: "Wilhelm B. Kloke" <wb(a)vestein.arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de> Message-Id: <200007251543.RAA31300(a)yorikke.arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: [pups] Algol 68 for PDP11? Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi, is a location known where this may be preserved? This should be an Algol68S (P.Hibbard) compiler from CMU adapted for V7 Unix in Manitoba. At least, Andy Walker calls the beast 'Manitoba compiler'. See recent discussion in comp.lang.misc. Regards, wbk -- Dipl.-Math. Wilhelm Bernhard Kloke Institut fuer Arbeitsphysiologie an der Universitaet Dortmund Ardeystrasse 67, D-44139 Dortmund, Tel. 0231-1084-257 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA78127 for pups-liszt; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:27:06 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jul 26 08:24:51 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA78123 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:27:04 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA40198 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:25:12 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA78114 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:26:52 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA40182; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:24:52 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200007252224.IAA40182(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: [pups] Re; Algol 68 for PDP11? In-Reply-To: <200007251543.RAA31300(a)yorikke.arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de> from "Wilhelm B. Kloke" at "Jul 25, 2000 05:43:29 pm" To: "Wilhelm B. Kloke" <wb(a)vestein.arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:24:51 +1000 (EST) CC: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL68 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Wilhelm B. Kloke: > Hi, > > is a location known where this may be preserved? This should be > an Algol68S (P.Hibbard) compiler from CMU adapted for V7 Unix in Manitoba. > At least, Andy Walker calls the beast 'Manitoba compiler'. See recent > discussion in comp.lang.misc. > > Regards, wbk Is it freely available or requires a license? Regardless, I'd be happy to put it in to the PDP-11/Applications area in our Unix Archive. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA78895 for pups-liszt; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 11:22:43 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Jul 26 09:47:40 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA78890 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 11:22:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA40710 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 11:20:48 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA78548 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 09:57:48 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA05298 for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 16:47:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 16:47:40 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200007252347.QAA05298(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU Subject: Re: [pups] Getting a MicroPDP-11 Running Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > From: SHOPPA(a)enterprise.trailing-edge.com > > But does V7 have a MSCP disk driver? Recommending to someone that all they Oops - I messed up there didn't I? Concentrated so much on the size of the disk I forgot about the MSCPness of the device :( Ummm, as a matter of fact no it doesn't. Depending what version of V7 you have it may or may not even have an RL driver. > How many RX50's would it take to hold a root filesystem dump? 15 or so? Oh perhaps 8 or 9. Using RX33 disks it only took 4 floppies but the RX50 is what, 400kb (about 1/3 that of the RX33). It's more like just Siegfried on 45's rather than the entire Ring ;) > See ftp://ftp.spc.edu/third-party-disks.txt Is ftp.spc.edu still up and running? I know spc11c.spc.edu is out of action and I'm not sure home much longer the systems at SPC.EDU will keep running now that Terry's no longer there. Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com

24 years, 5 months

Re: [pups] UNIX V7 11/45 image booting

by Andy Valencia

[Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> writes:] >UNIX V7 is contained on a single RL02 disk image. To boot UNIX: >... >Hope this helps! Thanks! (Don't know how I missed this. :-<) Yes, it helped, and I'm now the proud owner of a (virtual) single-user V7 box. Time to hack! Andy Valencia Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA71804 for pups-liszt; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:13:39 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Ryan Blair" <rblair(a)webteksdesign.com> Tue Jul 25 10:08:16 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA71800 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:13:37 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA35346 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:11:49 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us (scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us [204.38.93.2]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA71785 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:11:50 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from rblair(a)webteksdesign.com) Received: from rbp200 (pm098-06.dialip.mich.net [35.9.14.47]) by scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA09047 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:09:13 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rblair(a)webteksdesign.com) Message-ID: <001901bff5cc$8c02f200$2f0e0923@rbp200> From: "Ryan Blair" <rblair(a)webteksdesign.com> To: <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: [pups] 2.11 BSD image booting Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:08:16 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In the same rut as Andy Valencia: I have tried booting the 2.11 BSD distribution that was in the boot images directory, it has something like 9 disc pack images, and a script to boot it with Supnik. Well, it boots all right, but I can't access most of the filesystem, just the root, and even there most of the files seem corrupt. It gets even worse when I try to shut it down. It will not even boot back up after I shut it down in the emulator. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA71852 for pups-liszt; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:16:23 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue Jul 25 10:14:09 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA71848 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:16:21 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA35378 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:14:34 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA71837 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:16:01 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA35364; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:14:09 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200007250014.KAA35364(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: [pups] 2.11 BSD image booting In-Reply-To: <001901bff5cc$8c02f200$2f0e0923@rbp200> from Ryan Blair at "Jul 24, 2000 08:08:16 pm" To: Ryan Blair <rblair(a)webteksdesign.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:14:09 +1000 (EST) CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL68 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Ryan Blair: [Charset iso-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...] > In the same rut as Andy Valencia: > I have tried booting the 2.11 BSD distribution that was in the boot images > directory, it has something like 9 disc pack images, and a script to boot it > with Supnik. Well, it boots all right, but I can't access most of the > filesystem, just the root, and even there most of the files seem corrupt. It > gets even worse when I try to shut it down. It will not even boot back up > after I shut it down in the emulator. I think all the 2.11BSD disk images in Boot_Images are suspect. I wonder if we could prevail upon Steven Schultz (or someone) to build some 2.11BSD disk images which would be suitable for the Supnik and Ersatz emulators. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA71925 for pups-liszt; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:29:28 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Jul 25 10:22:40 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA71921 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:29:26 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA35426 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:27:38 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (root(a)wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA71891 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:24:57 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from grog(a)wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA31930; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 09:52:40 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 09:52:40 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au Cc: Ryan Blair <rblair(a)webteksdesign.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] 2.11 BSD image booting Message-ID: <20000725095240.B98476(a)wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <001901bff5cc$8c02f200$2f0e0923@rbp200> <200007250014.KAA35364(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <200007250014.KAA35364(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>; from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au on Tue, Jul 25, 2000 at 10:14:09AM +1000 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tuesday, 25 July 2000 at 10:14:09 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Ryan Blair: > [Charset iso-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...] >> In the same rut as Andy Valencia: >> I have tried booting the 2.11 BSD distribution that was in the boot images >> directory, it has something like 9 disc pack images, and a script to boot it >> with Supnik. Well, it boots all right, but I can't access most of the >> filesystem, just the root, and even there most of the files seem corrupt. It >> gets even worse when I try to shut it down. It will not even boot back up >> after I shut it down in the emulator. > > I think all the 2.11BSD disk images in Boot_Images are suspect. > > I wonder if we could prevail upon Steven Schultz (or someone) > to build some 2.11BSD disk images which would be suitable for the > Supnik and Ersatz emulators. I had some somewhere, but I haven't run them for a while. They're also very big. Greg -- Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA72058 for pups-liszt; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:01:35 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Jeremy Bingham <jeremy(a)mail.flyingcroc.net> Tue Jul 25 10:37:47 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA72054 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:01:33 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA35561 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:59:46 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from gilliam.users.flyingcroc.net (gilliam.users.flyingcroc.net [207.246.128.2]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA71964 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:39:52 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jeremy(a)mail.flyingcroc.net) Received: from localhost (jeremy@localhost) by gilliam.users.flyingcroc.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA76771 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 17:37:47 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 17:37:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeremy Bingham <jeremy(a)mail.flyingcroc.net> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: [pups] Getting a MicroPDP-11 Running Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0007241715580.62180-100000(a)gilliam.users.flyingcroc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk I just acquired a MicroPDP-11 from a Goodwill a couple of days ago with a RX50-A dual 400KB floppy and an RD52 31/33(?)MB hard drive, but it doesn't have a tape drive. My questions are: 1.) What UNIXes have been successfully loaded onto these types of machines? 2.) Can it be done without a tape? If so, has anybody pulled it off? 3.) Are there any utilities, either DOS or UNIX/Linux/FreeBSD based, to write and/or format RX50 floppies? I tried looking through the mail archive, but there didn't seem to be anything there that addressed this question. Thanks in advance to everybody. -j ---------------------------------------------------------- You know you've been spending too much time on the computer when your friend misdates a check, and you suggest adding a "++" to fix it. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA72592 for pups-liszt; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:28:58 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Tue Jul 25 13:00:06 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA72588 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:28:57 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA36970 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:27:09 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA72507 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:12:45 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA22851; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:00:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:00:06 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200007250300.UAA22851(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: rblair(a)webteksdesign.com, wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] 2.11 BSD image booting Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Howdy - > From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> > In article by Ryan Blair: > > In the same rut as Andy Valencia: > > I have tried booting the 2.11 BSD distribution that was in the boot images > > directory, it has something like 9 disc pack images, and a script to boot it > > with Supnik. Well, it boots all right, but I can't access most of the > > filesystem, just the root, and even there most of the files seem corrupt. > > I think all the 2.11BSD disk images in Boot_Images are suspect. Hmmm, I don't think they're corrupt. Wasn't there a similar posting a month or two ago about someone (I forget who it was) having "massive corruption". It turned out that the simulator was only told to use 256kb of memory (18bit mode). Once the "set cpu 2048k" command was added to the conf file the problems cleared right up. A good case can be made that it's a bug the system doesn't outright crash if it's unhappy with the amount of memory but given it's so easy to 'add memory' to the system I can't work up any enthusiasm to track down and fix the problem ;) > I wonder if we could prevail upon Steven Schultz (or someone) > to build some 2.11BSD disk images which would be suitable for the > Supnik and Ersatz emulators. Well, one could take the tape images that are in the archive and run the suitable tape preparation program ('makesimtape' for Supnik's simulator and I think makesimtape.c is around in the archive as well). Might need a "toggle in" boot for that (it's in the 2.11 setup and installation guide) though since I do not recall the Supnik simulator knowing how to boot from tape. Try putting "set cpu 2048k" (I don't _think_ you need both "set cpu 22b" and "set cpu 2048k" but having both doesn't hurt and may help). Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA72598 for pups-liszt; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:29:21 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Tue Jul 25 13:18:29 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA72594 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:29:19 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA36985 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:27:31 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA72576 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:27:49 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA23005; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:18:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:18:29 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200007250318.UAA23005(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: jeremy(a)mail.flyingcroc.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] Getting a MicroPDP-11 Running Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi! > From: Jeremy Bingham <jeremy(a)mail.flyingcroc.net> > I just acquired a MicroPDP-11 from a Goodwill a couple of days ago with a Wow - that's a source for PDP-11s I would never have thought of :) > RX50-A dual 400KB floppy and an RD52 31/33(?)MB hard drive, but it doesn't > have a tape drive. My questions are: > 1.) What UNIXes have been successfully loaded onto these types of machines? I think we need just one more little piece of information before we can match up a version of Unix with your new machine. We need to know if it's an 11/23 (23+), or an 11/53 (73). The label "MicroPDP-11" was used on a number of systems. If it's a 53 or better then you can run any of the PDP-11 Unix systems that are out there. If it's a 23 class machine then you're limited to V7 or earlier (2.9BSD would probably fit but it would be a struggle and you definitely wouldn't be able to use the networking). Looking at the system maint register with the console ODT would probably be the easiest way to determine the cpu type - examine location 177750 (or 17777750 depending if the system needs the explicit 22 bit address). Bits 4 thru 7 tell the module type: 5 = KDJ-11E (93, 94), 4 = KDJ-11D (53), 3 = KXJ11-C, 2 = KDJ11B (quad high 73), 1 = KDJ-11A (dual high board 73). If it's a 23 the sys maint register probably doesn't exist. Another way would be to look at the module number on the spine of the card ;) > 2.) Can it be done without a tape? If so, has anybody pulled it off? A ~32mb disk is going to be very tight for any 2BSD system. V7 will fit I think. > 3.) Are there any utilities, either DOS or UNIX/Linux/FreeBSD based, to write > and/or format RX50 floppies? Hmmm, I thought John Wilson has some utilities that could do that. Normally you need to buy preformatted RX50 disks or have a DEC Rainbow (DOS) system around. On the other hand if the controller is an RQDX3 it is possible with some luck (and more hardware skill than I have ;)) hook up a standard 5.25" Teac floppy drive. I don't have the location of the info for that at hand - you might try the alt.sys.pdp11 or vmsnet.pdp-11 newsgroups (lots of knowing folks hang out there). Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA72804 for pups-liszt; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 14:19:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com> Tue Jul 25 14:16:09 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA72800 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 14:19:39 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA37187 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 14:17:51 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from zippy.bernstein.com (zippy.bernstein.com [206.20.83.202]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA72792 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 14:18:46 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com) Received: (from entropy@localhost) by zippy.bernstein.com (8.10.2/8.8.8) id e6P4G9T17046; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 00:16:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 00:16:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200007250416.e6P4G9T17046(a)zippy.bernstein.com> From: maximum entropy <entropy(a)zippy.bernstein.com> To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com CC: jeremy(a)mail.flyingcroc.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au In-reply-to: <200007250318.UAA23005(a)moe.2bsd.com> (sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Subject: Re: [pups] Getting a MicroPDP-11 Running References: <200007250318.UAA23005(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:18:29 -0700 (PDT) >From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> > >> From: Jeremy Bingham <jeremy(a)mail.flyingcroc.net> >> [...] >> 3.) Are there any utilities, either DOS or UNIX/Linux/FreeBSD based, to write >> and/or format RX50 floppies? > > Hmmm, I thought John Wilson has some utilities that could do that. > Normally you need to buy preformatted RX50 disks or have a DEC Rainbow > (DOS) system around. > > On the other hand if the controller is an RQDX3 it is possible with > some luck (and more hardware skill than I have ;)) hook up a standard > 5.25" Teac floppy drive. I don't have the location of the info for > that at hand - you might try the alt.sys.pdp11 or vmsnet.pdp-11 > newsgroups (lots of knowing folks hang out there). http://vaxarchive.org/hw/rx50.html ...contains a good FAQ with some useful links, including a link to John Wilson's stuff at DBIT. I'm also appending here a file with some informative messages on the subject. I had this file stored away with a bunch of Venix images for the Pro. I don't remember if this file (RX50.notes) came with the Venix stuff, or if I collected them together myself. I'm pretty sure it's the former, but I couldn't find any links to it by searching the net. Anyway, here it is... >From barry(a)chezmoto.ai.mit.edu Tue Aug 4 08:14:38 1992 >From: barry(a)chezmoto.ai.mit.edu (Barry Kort) >Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro >Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC >Date: 2 Aug 92 11:53:41 GMT >Organization: MicroMuse >In-reply-to: keithr(a)garfield.cs.mun.ca's message of 1 Aug 92 01:10:53 GMT > >I use the RX50DRVR on my AT which allows my 1.2 MB drive to read RX50 >diskettes. What this does is to create a new driveletter (F:) which >spins the HD drive as if it were an RX50 drive. > >RX50DRVR does not know anything about the directory structure on >the disks. If I do 'dir F:' it assumes DOS directory structure, >which works fine on Rainbow diskettes, since they use the DOS >directory structure. > >To read RT11 formatted diskettes, there is a utility called RT11 >which groks the RT11 file structure. I have not yet found a similar >utility which handles the RMS-11 file structure of the PRO 3xx series. > >I can use Norton Utilities with RX50DRVR to examine the RX50 diskette >in the F: drive, but then I am accessing the diskette sector by sector, >not by logical file. > >I haven't explored the new utilities from the gentlemen in the Former >Soviet Union who have announced some DOS environment tools for >manipulating RX50 diskettes. > >Using RX50DRVR in combination with the RT11 utility program, I can >low-level format a blank HD diskette as an RX50 diskette, then >put it in the PRO and do a high-level RMS-11 style Initialization. >This allows me to create new RX50 diskettes out of plain old unformatted >or recycled 1.2 MB HD diskettes. > >Using Venix on the PRO, I can do a raw image copy of a diskette in one >drive to a blank diskette in another drive. (This kind of copy will fail >if the target diskette has any bad sectors, since there is no attempt >to rearrange sectors to detour around any bad blocks.) > >Finally, by hooking up the PRO to a Unix or DOS machine via the >COM port (or to a Unix host via Ethernet/DECnet if you have a DECNA >card), you can transfer files via any number of techniques, ranging >>from straight ASCII upload/capture using ordinary terminal emulators, >Kermit file transfers if you have Kermit on both machines, or by >DECnet file transfer using NFT or dcp utilities. > >None of this is particularly trivial to implement, but the bottom >line is that there are many ways to pull files off RX50 diskettes >and transfer them to Unix or DOS machines. > >Barry Kort > >From cosc16to(a)menudo.uh.edu Tue Aug 4 08:14:48 1992 >From: cosc16to(a)menudo.uh.edu (Andy Hakim) >Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro >Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC >Date: 2 Aug 92 19:45:22 GMT >Organization: University of Houston >X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4 > >barry(a)chezmoto.ai.mit.edu (Barry Kort) writes: >: >: Using RX50DRVR in combination with the RT11 utility program, I can >: low-level format a blank HD diskette as an RX50 diskette, then >: put it in the PRO and do a high-level RMS-11 style Initialization. >: This allows me to create new RX50 diskettes out of plain old unformatted >: or recycled 1.2 MB HD diskettes. >: >: Using Venix on the PRO, I can do a raw image copy of a diskette in one >: drive to a blank diskette in another drive. (This kind of copy will fail >: if the target diskette has any bad sectors, since there is no attempt >: to rearrange sectors to detour around any bad blocks.) > > >Another method of obtaining a formatted disk for the Pro-3xx, is to >use an image copy program called Teledisk (shareware) for the PC. Not only >does this program allow you to do a disk-to-disk copy, but it can also >store a disk into a file (on the PC). This way, it is possible to keep an >image file of a blank P/OS formatted disk, and then crank out new copies >easily. > >In my experience, low density disks (360k) on a high density (1.2m) AT class >drives seem to work out best. > >-andy > >From lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu Tue Aug 4 08:14:56 1992 >From: lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) >Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro >Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC >Date: 3 Aug 92 06:39:56 GMT >Reply-To: lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) >Organization: Columbia University >Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu > >In article <1992Aug2.194522.18244(a)menudo.uh.edu> cosc16to(a)menudo.uh.edu (Andy Hakim) writes: >> >>Another method of obtaining a formatted disk for the Pro-3xx, is to >>use an image copy program called Teledisk (shareware) for the PC. Not only >>does this program allow you to do a disk-to-disk copy, but it can also >>store a disk into a file (on the PC). This way, it is possible to keep an >>image file of a blank P/OS formatted disk, and then crank out new copies >>easily. > >Where can I obtain Teledisk? Does it require any low-level preformatting >of the media on the target? > >IF you use DR-DOS and RAINDOS (but not RX50DRVR) you can use DISKCOPY and >DISKCOMP to copy RX50 MS-DOS diskettes to each other, or to files on the >hard disk: > >DISKCOPY E: C:\RX50DISK.IMG > >DISKCOPY E: E: > >DISKCOPY C:\RX50DISK.IMG E: > >DISKCOMP E: C:\RX50DISK.IMG > >When writing the file or disk image onto a target disk, the diskette has to >be already formatted as a low-level RX50, yet there are no high-level >considerations, so non-DOS RX50's can be directly used as targets! > >Of course input diskettes have to already be MS-DOS RX50 DECmate II/Rainbow >diskettes because of DOS restrictions. > >Note that DOS 5 cannot do anything but "standard" disk sizes, and can't >copy disk images to files at all. > >> >>In my experience, low density disks (360k) on a high density (1.2m) AT class >>drives seem to work out best. > >And without hub rings is better. If you suspect that a disk is actually >high-density when it has no hub rings, there is a simple test: > >Just format it as a normal 1.2 Meg disk. a low-density diskette will get >hundreds of Kbytes in bad sectors, while a HD diskette will get little or >no errors, thus proving it unsuitable for RX50 purposes. Most disks with >hub rings are already clearly low-density, but after you remove them, this >will prove a quick check for actual diskette formulation. > >cjl > >From cosc16to(a)menudo.uh.edu Tue Aug 4 08:15:02 1992 >From: cosc16to(a)menudo.uh.edu (Andy Hakim) >Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro >Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC >Date: 3 Aug 92 16:42:35 GMT >Organization: University of Houston >X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4 > >lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) writes: >: >: Where can I obtain Teledisk? Does it require any low-level preformatting >: of the media on the target? >: >I checked the ftp site "wuarchive.wustle.edu", it is in directory >"mirrors2/msdos/dskutl" as file "teled212.zip". > >Nope, this one does not require any low level preformatting. It's possible >to stick in a brand new ds/dd and let it go. Incidently, teledisk is >made by the same people, Sydex, who make 22disk. > >-andy > >From cosc16to(a)menudo.uh.edu Tue Aug 4 08:15:11 1992 >From: cosc16to(a)menudo.uh.edu (Andy Hakim) >Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro >Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC >Date: 3 Aug 92 16:54:30 GMT >Organization: University of Houston >X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4 > >: I checked the ftp site "wuarchive.wustle.edu", it is in directory >: "mirrors2/msdos/dskutl" as file "teled212.zip". > >Correction, it's spelled "wuarchive.wustl.edu" with a missing 'e'. > >Host nic.switch.ch (130.59.1.40) > Location: /mirror/msdos/dskutl > FILE rw-rw-r-- 93805 Dec 23 1990 teled212.zip > >Host ftp.uu.net (137.39.1.9) > Location: /systems/msdos/simtel20/dskutl > FILE rw-r--r-- 93805 Dec 22 1990 teled212.zip > >Host wuarchive.wustl.edu (128.252.135.4) > Location: /mirrors3/garbo.uwasa.fi/diskutil > FILE rw-rw-r-- 94075 Dec 11 1990 teled212.zip > Location: /mirrors/msdos/dskutl > FILE rw-r--r-- 93805 Dec 23 1990 teled212.zip > >archie> > >From lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu Tue Aug 4 08:15:17 1992 >From: lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) >Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro >Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC >Date: 4 Aug 92 05:55:11 GMT >Reply-To: lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) >Organization: Columbia University >Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu > >In article <1992Aug3.164235.1187(a)menudo.uh.edu> cosc16to(a)menudo.uh.edu (Andy Hakim) writes: >>lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) writes: >>: >>: Where can I obtain Teledisk? Does it require any low-level preformatting >>: of the media on the target? >>: >>I checked the ftp site "wuarchive.wustle.edu", it is in directory >>"mirrors2/msdos/dskutl" as file "teled212.zip". >> >>Nope, this one does not require any low level preformatting. It's possible >>to stick in a brand new ds/dd and let it go. Incidently, teledisk is >>made by the same people, Sydex, who make 22disk. >> >>-andy > >Sydex also makes RAINDOS. > >I suspect that teledisk will only make sector-compatible descendents though, >so if I have a specially layed-out version of a diskette (such as 2:1 >interleave or staggered, etc.) the descendent will lose that aspect of >optimization, and will instead become "vanilla" RX50 format in the >case of RX50 diskette. > >The point is that certain software, especially for DECmates not specifically >geared to CP/M-80, and *any* bootable DECmate diskette (including CP/M-80) the >format used in stock RX50 layout is non-optimal. There are different >requirements for different specific applications, but just as on PC's, the >use of non-interleaved non-staggered disks can be demonstrated to be >inferior to a variant in terms of sector ordering at the low format level. > >Rainbow MS-DOS disks have an implied software interleave of 2:1 for the >FAT area, and 1:1 in the rest; this is in software, so the standard disk >layout should be maintained, except that the *stagger* is not taken into >account. Thus, like a PC, Rainbow MS-DOS disks should be formatted with a >stagger of 2 per track. Thus track 1 is layed out 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 and >track 2 is layed out 9,10,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8. When the disk seeks from track 1 >to track 2, it will thus miss 9 and 10, but immediately find 1. Were the >stagger not there, it would miss 1 and 2, and reject 3,4,5,6,7,8,9 while >waiting for 1 to come around again. Thus staggering relieves rotational >latency. > >For the DECmate, there are two additional problems: > >All bootable diskettes require the logically sequential reading of tracks >78, 79 in the order 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10. But the RX >interface of the DECmate can't perform 1:1 interleave ever, so this is >anti-optimal not only in stagger but more importantly in interleave. Thus, >this area of the disk should be formatted with an interleave of 2:1 as well >as a stagger of 2. Thus the disk is layed out: > >track 78: 1,6,2,7,3,8,4,9,5,10 >track 79: 5,10,1,6,2,7,3,8,4,9 > >This restriction is based on the ROM routines that read in this area in linear >order. This is mostly why all DECmates take so long to boot up! Changing to >a better sector order will chop seconds out of the boot time. > >Further, all systems other than CP/M-80 require some form of help, mostly >applying the stagger that helps the Rainbow as well (again other than CP/M). >For DECmate MS-DOS, tracks 0-3 should be in 1-1 interleave because the software >already maps the disk in 2:1 usage. tracks 4-79 should be formatted 2:1 >interleave to help out the RX interface when the Rainbow-optimal ordering >is invoked (similar to the DECmate ROM access, and just as inefficient on >a DECmate). > >OS/278 does a software 2:1 interleave, so the only help needed is a >disk-wide stagger factor of 2. > >Note that RT-11 and all other -11-oriented disks should use stock format only >because this superior software maps all sectors to include both the 2-1 >interleave and stagger of 2 already. > >So, if Teledisk is a *really* good utility, it won't disturb the format's >stagger and interleave as it copies the disks! > >cjl > >From lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu Tue Aug 4 08:15:23 1992 >From: lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) >Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro >Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC >Date: 3 Aug 92 05:39:27 GMT >Reply-To: lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) >Organization: Columbia University >Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu > >In article <BARRY.92Aug2075341(a)chezmoto.ai.mit.edu> barry(a)chezmoto.ai.mit.edu (Barry Kort) writes: >>I use the RX50DRVR on my AT which allows my 1.2 MB drive to read RX50 >>diskettes. What this does is to create a new driveletter (F:) which >>spins the HD drive as if it were an RX50 drive. > >RX50DRVR, like RAINDOS, creates a new logical drive past your last existent >drive, so it's F: for you because you apparently have an A: through E: before >the driver gets loaded in CONFIG.SYS. > >> >>RX50DRVR does not know anything about the directory structure on >>the disks. If I do 'dir F:' it assumes DOS directory structure, >>which works fine on Rainbow diskettes, since they use the DOS >>directory structure. > >That's not quite true, since the disk organization has to be DOS as implemented >on DECmate II MSDOS/Rainbow MS-DOS only. It is true only in the sense that >you can make your own BIOS calls to read the disks yourself without caring >about the significence. But that's no different from doing so with any >floppy on a PC. > >> >>To read RT11 formatted diskettes, there is a utility called RT11 >>which groks the RT11 file structure. I have not yet found a similar >>utility which handles the RMS-11 file structure of the PRO 3xx series. > >Where can I get this RT11 utility? It sounds useful. Does it specifically >require/recognize the RX50DRVR or does it merely work in an innocuous way >with the same drive letter? (Would it work also with A:? or must it have >RX50DRVR present. If so, would it work with RAINDOS as an alternative?) > >> >>I can use Norton Utilities with RX50DRVR to examine the RX50 diskette >>in the F: drive, but then I am accessing the diskette sector by sector, >>not by logical file. >> >>I haven't explored the new utilities from the gentlemen in the Former >>Soviet Union who have announced some DOS environment tools for >>manipulating RX50 diskettes. > >Re the Soviet-originating files: > >The files come with a piece of shareware originating in Italy that intercepts >DOS's calls for formatting commands, so that "odd" sizes, such as using: >FORMAT A: /T:80 /N:10 are now legal. The result is a double-sided disk that >is quite suitably low-level formatted for RX50, but the high-level is PC >compatible, *not* DECmate/Rainbow's idea of MS-DOS, and specifically must be >used on a "normal" drive and *not* with RX50DRVR. All media indicators are >stock PC-type, not RX50. However, since the low-level is now correct, and >errors are recorded in a way that FORMAT indicated when it finished, and can >be re-confirmed with CHKDSK, etc., the media can be determined to be error- >free hopefully. If so, then the companion program RX50INIT that comes with >RX50DRVR can be used to initialize the directory so DECmate/Rainbow MS-DOS >likes the disk, and of course the RX50DRVR-controlled logical device such as >F: in your example. Note also that RX50INIT can be used with RAINDOS as well. >Also, RX50INIT requires ANSI.SYS be loaded purely for cosmetic reasons. >RX50DRVR and RX50INIT were designed for DOS 3.3 usage. They don't support the >extensions to DOS brought into versions 4 and 5, so there are some problems. >RX50INIT fails totally in those two systems, and CHKDSK can't work there >either. With some adjustment to the BUFFERS= statement in CONFIG.SYS, they >can be made to work for read/write purposes under DOS 4 or 5. > > >When used with DR-DOS 6.0, all RX50DRVR and RX50INIT functions work fine. > > >> >>Using RX50DRVR in combination with the RT11 utility program, I can >>low-level format a blank HD diskette as an RX50 diskette, then >>put it in the PRO and do a high-level RMS-11 style Initialization. >>This allows me to create new RX50 diskettes out of plain old unformatted >>or recycled 1.2 MB HD diskettes. > >Just a word about using HD media: > >You can't reliably use HD media on an actual RX50, because the coercivity >is too far off in HD media. It was designed for the higher-frequency >recording of the "real" 1.2 Meg format (500 KHz) and not the 250 KHz recording >rate of the RX50, which is actually the same as good 'ol DS/DD media (360K >kid of media). Some revisions of RX50 drive in comination with certain RX >controllers in some DEC machins fare better than others, but it can be >demonstrated that a lot of combinations don't particularly "like" HD >media. > >The designated media for RX50 is Maxell MD1DD-RX50 or equivalent, which is >what used to be called "quad" media. This is well-honed low-density media, >so it is rated for use on 96 TPI (80 track) drives, not just 48 TPI (40 track) >drives as is usual. Note that MD2D is not MD2DD. (The 2 just means two-sided >which for all intents and purposes today can be ignored; virtuall *all* media >is actually made double-sided :-).) The DD means 80-track support, but since >most media are made well-honed, most cheap disks can support 80 tracks anyway. >These disks will *not* cause I/O errors on any RX50! However, long-term usage >requires the hub rings be removed completely (use alcohol to get the sticky >stuff off, or ask your supplier for no-hub disks!). Failing to remove >hub rings means eventually the disks will get unreliable sooner than they >ought to due to registration problems. All 96 TPI disks have this problem. >Note that MD2HD and MD1DD don't have hub rings! It is rumored that there is >a "premium" line of diskettes from Fuji apart from their standard line of >inexpensive diskettes that has a specially reinforced hub area, that isn't >a hub ring per se. If the same mechanism is used in both HD and DD media, >then the DD type would be the best thing today to use with impunity for >RX50. Clearly the MD1DD or MD2DD or MD1DD or the 3M equivalents are too >expensive, considering that what we want are the cheapest types of diskettes >with the hub rings never added. (We don't want to pay more for less!) > >Re RT-11 utility: > >I don't know anything about the RT11 utility program, but RX50DRVR cannot >format disks; the code lacks support for the FORMAT command, and also some >calls needed by both CHKDSK and FORMAT. Attempts to use either on DOS 4 >or 5 will get error messages. Even on 3.3, where CHKDSK is more "forgiving" >you still get the message about "format not supported on device" when >using RX50DRVR. So, if your claim for formatting is true, the RT11 utility >must contain low-level formatting code of its own, and perhaps only needs >RX50DRVR to locate the proper device? > >RAINDOS is a share-ware mostly superset of RX50DRVR, and it totally supports >CHKDSK and FORMAT in DOS 4 and 5. It works fine with RX50INIT (assuming that >RX50INIT can work!) and suffers from only two known problems: > >1) Should you specify a format command with the FORMAT F: command, >and the O/S is DR-DOS 6, then if it really does attempt a low-level format, >it gets a cryptic error message and fails. Note that MS-DOS 5 and DR-DOS 6 >will always attempt a "quick" format if possible, unless over-ridden. This >case of a quick format doesn't fail, but also isn't formatting! Just >rewriting a cleaned-up high-level format directory initialize. > >2) It is sometimes strangely slow, as compared to RX50DRVR where both >could work. When using Norton 4.5's DT program, RX50DRVR handles the >disk at normal speed, and allows DT to mark bad clusters (if any) quite >nicely. When RAINDOS is used, it causes many recalibrates for unknown >reasons. In some cases, the sloth isn't that noticeable, but this is a >sore point usage. > >Otherwise, RAINDOS is a total replacement for RX50DRVR, or so it would seem. >Norton NU treats RX50DRVR diskettes and RAINDOS diskettes equally since it >does one-sector I/O. > >> >>Using Venix on the PRO, I can do a raw image copy of a diskette in one >>drive to a blank diskette in another drive. (This kind of copy will fail >>if the target diskette has any bad sectors, since there is no attempt >>to rearrange sectors to detour around any bad blocks.) >> >>Finally, by hooking up the PRO to a Unix or DOS machine via the >>COM port (or to a Unix host via Ethernet/DECnet if you have a DECNA >>card), you can transfer files via any number of techniques, ranging >>from straight ASCII upload/capture using ordinary terminal emulators, >>Kermit file transfers if you have Kermit on both machines, or by >>DECnet file transfer using NFT or dcp utilities. >> >>None of this is particularly trivial to implement, but the bottom >>line is that there are many ways to pull files off RX50 diskettes >>and transfer them to Unix or DOS machines. >> >>Barry Kort > >If the Soviet files prove to work, and apparently requiring the Italian >TSR shareware program, we can probably make Files-11 RX50 diskettes as well. >I have just received these programs and will be evaluating them when feasible. >I am still working with the accompanying Italian shareware which has some >interesting "generic" features of its own with respect to the entire RX50 >issue. I suspect that its presence enhances any of these utilities, although >it's possible redundant and perhaps extraneous to some of the utilities. > >In any case, there are many ways to get files moved around. > >Another excellent package is 22DISK from Sydex, the same shareware author >as RAINDOS. This package low-level formats RX50's in either DECmate CP/M-80 >or Rainbow CP/M-80/86 format. (They are similar, but not identical, although >they can read each other's disks no sweat; it's a matter of interleave, etc. >and a throughput issue, not a format per se issue.) It then high-level >formats the disks for CP/M usage. So, its a good place to do the low-level >formatting required for all of these other utilities. For example, on >DR-DOS 6, you first run 22DISK to format the disk, then use RX50INIT to get >an RX50 MS-DOS DECmate/Rainbow high-level structure, and then can use >RAINDOS to transfer files, run CHKDSK, and do quick-formats with FORMAT /Q, >etc. Notice this avoids all of the Raindos/DR-DOS interaction :-). > >22DISK can get directory listings of CP/M disks, and can transfer files >to/from MS-DOS from/to the designated CP/M diskette. It supports literally >hundreds of CP/M formats, which implies many low and high-level support >variants. This program is highly reminiscent of the former Rainbow, and >later PC-based "Media Master" program, but is for PC/MS-DOS only, and >requires HD drives for the RX50 formats. > >I believe there is an obscure PRO option for a CP/M-80 board, so this might >be yet another way to get files in/out of a PRO. > >So, like cats, there are many ways to "skin" an RX50 :-). > >cjl > >From lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu Tue Aug 4 08:15:29 1992 >From: lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) >Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro >Subject: Good report on Teledisk. >Date: 4 Aug 92 07:27:25 GMT >Reply-To: lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) >Organization: Columbia University >Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu > >I have down-loaded Sydex's teledisk, and have found it to exceed my >expectations in some useful ways. > >For starters, all of my attentions are based on the problems of distributing >RX50 diskettes not necessarily in stock format, and not yet having any >satisfactory way of creating the necessary disks. > >Background: > >There are several desirable variant formats for RX50 that have been discussed >elsewhere. The only known program to create them is FDFORMAT for PC's. While >this freeware program is generally quite good, it has a few crucial bugs that >make it unsuitable for RX50 usage. It is conceivable that this will be >solved by using some additional/non-standard parameters to FDFORMAT to create >usable disks, but in any case, the use of all obvious parameters yields disks >that are flakey on some RX50's, and downright unreadable on others. In >addition, these disks are so messed up that a DECmate can't even WRITE on the >disks and read back what it just wrote reliably! Yet, this isn't a media >problem because it can be demonstrated that the problem disappears by >low-level format of the same diskette with either Sydex's RAINDOS or 22DISK >packages. (Note that *some* RX50 systems using some newer-designed controllers >and/or higher revision drives and/or RX50-compatibility modes on different >drives have little or no problems with these FDFORMATted diskettes; indeed >the diskettes are fine on a PC; there's some low-level detail that's incorrect >about FDFORMATted diskettes. Some parameter is being set to a PC-acceptable >value that doesn't center on RX50's requirements. Perhaps this will be >uncovered at a later time obviating this entire discussion. Until such a >time, FDFORMAT cannot be used to create RX50 diskettes that are readable on >*all* RX50 systems. FDFORMAT also has a few other operational bugs, such as >incorrect recognition of certain I/O errors, etc., but these are exception >cases, and for all other PC purposes, it serves quite admirably.) > >The reason why FDFORMAT is desirable is that it is the only known program >capable of creating the variant RX50 formats where the format must be >done with interleave and stagger factors, especially if the disk must have >"zones" where the format changes. For example, to create a disk best suited >for DECmate OS/278 usage, the following *TWO* commands should be given: > >FDFORMAT A: /T:80 /N:10 /1 /Y:2 /I:2 >FDFORMAT A: /T:78 /N:10 /1 /Y:2 > >The first command creates a disk with an interleave of 2:1 and a stagger of >2 throughout. The second command changes tracks 0-77 to have 1:1 interleave >and a stagger of 2 throughout. > >When OS/278 is copied onto such a diskette, the "slushware" tracks are read >in much faster than on standard RX50 diskettes, and all access to the rest of >the diskette is speeded somewhat because of the stagger factor which overcomes >the software's lack of stagger mapping. But since the software does map the >sector order into a 2:1 interleave, the hardware order must stay in 1:1 >interleave sequence. > >This would be a nice disk to use for the intended purpose, but many DECmates >will be unable to read this diskette. Literally, it will get a CRC error >on *every* sector! Furthermore, if you attempt to write an image of the >software onto this diskette, it will get a CRC error on *every* sector even >though it just wrote the disk out! > >Enter Teledisk to the rescue! > >When I read Teledisk's documentation, I had doubts that it could solve >this problem, because I noticed it could be quite "smart", perhaps *too* >smart! It claims that it can get around certain copy-protection methods >by virtue of how it operates, so I figured that it would likely copy the >problems of FDFORMAT as well :-(. Or, alternatively, it might guess that >the diskette was an RX50 and proceed to format it in a stock manner, thus >destroying the optimization applied by using the two FDFORMAT commands instead >of just using RAINDOS or 22DISK to create stock low-level RX50 diskettes. > >Well, I was wrong on both counts! > >Teledisk understands how to maintain sector order, and pointed out the >change of interleave from 1:1 to 2:1 at track 78, so that problem is >hurdled. > >Teledisk understands that these sectors should be formatted with apparently >the same parameters as the formatting routines in 22DISK and RAINDOS, so the >resultant disk *is* readable on DECmates! Of course, this is *not* an >"exact" copy, but rather it is a "better" copy. Apparently Teledisk only >writes sectors in a "sane" format, and the copy-protection they refer to >is the class of "funny" sector ordering, size, or count, not any lower-level >details. Apparently the Sydex code at work in RAINDOS and 22DISK is also >within Teledisk, thus since Teledisk recognizes the disk as a 10-sector/track >512 bytes/sector disk, it writes it as would RAINDOS, etc., except Teledisk >is sensitive to sector ordering unlike the other Sydex programs, etc. > >Thus, the descendent disk is actually *better* than the original. I can now >therefore distribute diskettes in the intended format for working-copy usage >of the best effort of each diskette :-). > >Additionally, if I modify distribution diskettes to be in their intended >format instead of their original stock format (virtually all diskettes that >need to be distributed are in stock RX50 format, because the need to create >optimal diskette layout is generally newer than the software; indeed, this >entire effort is to distribute software that performs *better* than the >original!), then the master disks should be copied with Teledisk to create >perfect copies in one step. > >There are additional advantages: > >Teledisk can also create an MS-DOS file that is the image of the diskette >in either a rudimentary-compressed or advanced-compressed form. These files >can be transmitted down the net and then reconstructed on PC-AT's for use >on RX50 targets. Since they are compressed, this minimizes the overhead >as well, etc. > >So, Teledisk has made my day :-). > >cjl > >From barry(a)chezmoto.ai.mit.edu Wed Aug 5 10:12:06 1992 >From: barry(a)chezmoto.ai.mit.edu (Barry Kort) >Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro >Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC >Date: 4 Aug 92 12:13:30 GMT >Organization: MicroMuse >In-reply-to: lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu's message of 3 Aug 92 05:39:27 GMT > >Charles, > >You can retreive rt11.zip by anonymous ftp from >newton.canterbury.ac.nz, 132.181.40.1, in the pub/local directory. > >Barry > >From lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu Wed Aug 5 10:12:14 1992 >From: lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) >Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro >Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC >Date: 4 Aug 92 18:41:23 GMT >Reply-To: lasner(a)watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) >Organization: Columbia University >Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu > >In article <BARRY.92Aug4081330(a)chezmoto.ai.mit.edu> >arry(a)chezmoto.ai.mit.edu (Barry Kort) writes: > >>Charles, > >>You can retreive rt11.zip by anonymous ftp from >>newton.canterbury.ac.nz, 132.181.40.1, in the pub/local directory. > >>Barry > >Got it. It looks nice. It produces what appears to be a nice RT-11-like >environment on a PC for file transfers, etc., but is inferior to Teledisk >for the purpose of making a compacted image of an entire disk as a DOS >file. Since this is a frill, it can be completely overlooked :-). > >And yes, it does Format DD-type media to stock RX50 as advertised. I will >only take you to task on the minor point: it doesn't require RX50DRVR at all. >There was a little confusion as to whether they were tied together, which is >not the case. > >This program is written in Turbo Pascal. It would seem that someone who >can understand enough TP and the quirky code to call BIOS routines should >incorporate some of RT11.PAS into FDFORMAT (also a TP-based item) since >the format routine works fine while FDFORMAT does not for RX50 as discussed >elsewhere. > >Overall a nice program. > >cjl > > > > > -- entropy -- it's not just a good idea, it's the second law. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA74088 for pups-liszt; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 19:05:40 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Tue Jul 25 15:55:00 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA74084 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 19:05:38 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA38315 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 19:03:48 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from junk.nocrew.org (mail(a)[212.73.17.42]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA73220 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 15:57:27 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from lars(a)junk.nocrew.org) Received: from lars by junk.nocrew.org with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 13GxgC-00055v-00; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 07:55:00 +0200 To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Cc: rblair(a)webteksdesign.com, wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] 2.11 BSD image booting References: <200007250300.UAA22851(a)moe.2bsd.com> From: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Date: 25 Jul 2000 07:55:00 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Steven M. Schultz"'s message of "Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:00:06 -0700 (PDT)" Message-ID: <858zuq21qj.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> writes: > > From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> > > I think all the 2.11BSD disk images in Boot_Images are suspect. > Hmmm, I don't think they're corrupt. I use the 2.11_rp_unknown (Current Patch Level: 400, Date: January 24, 1998) image without any problems. Well, I didn't know the root password, so I had to erase it in single user mode. > Wasn't there a similar posting a month or two ago about someone (I > forget who it was) having "massive corruption". It turned out that > the simulator was only told to use 256kb of memory (18bit mode). Once > the "set cpu 2048k" command was added to the conf file the problems > cleared right up. That was probably me. > Try putting "set cpu 2048k" (I don't _think_ you need both "set cpu > 22b" and "set cpu 2048k" but having both doesn't hurt and may help). This is the script I use: set cpu 22b set cpu 3072K at rp0 2.11_rp_unknown at rl0 x.tar b rp

24 years, 5 months

[pups] Eh...

by Andy Valencia

I should mention that "at rl0 ..." also doesn't work: sim> at rl0 /users/vandys/tmp/v7/v7_rl02_1145 sim> b rl0 @/ @/ HALT instruction, PC: 000002 (HALT) sim> Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA64000 for pups-liszt; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 08:06:36 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Andy Valencia <vandys(a)zendo.com> Mon Jul 24 00:03:02 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA63996 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 08:06:34 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA28520 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 08:04:53 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from zendo.com (bodhi.zendo.com [205.187.71.2]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA61473 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 00:06:36 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from vandys(a)vandys-pc.zendo.com) Received: from vandys-pc.zendo.com (dialup-209.245.169.79.Seattle1.Level3.net [209.245.169.79]) by zendo.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e6N6H4724974 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 23 Jul 2000 06:17:05 GMT Received: from vandys-pc.zendo.com (localhost.zendo.com [127.0.0.1]) by vandys-pc.zendo.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA00392 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 23 Jul 2000 07:03:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vandys(a)vandys-pc.zendo.com) Message-Id: <200007231403.HAA00392(a)vandys-pc.zendo.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: [pups] UNIX V7 11/45 image booting Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 07:03:02 -0700 From: Andy Valencia <vandys(a)zendo.com> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk I'm trying to boot the image v7_rl02_1145 from sim_2.3d, and get: PDP-11 simulator V2.3d sim> at rl02 /users/vandys/tmp/v7/v7_rl02_1145 sim> b rl02 @ I can type things to the '@' prompt, but it never does anything unless I type '/', at which point it bombs back to the emulator. My scan of the documentation for bootstraps doesn't point out any state with an '@' prompt... help? I can't tell you how many years it's been since I've had access to an '11 running V7. Looking forward to it! Thanks, Andy Valencia Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA64083 for pups-liszt; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 08:24:58 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Mon Jul 24 08:22:52 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA64079 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 08:24:56 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA28686 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 08:23:14 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA64071 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 08:24:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA28671; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 08:22:52 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200007232222.IAA28671(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: [pups] UNIX V7 11/45 image booting In-Reply-To: <200007231403.HAA00392(a)vandys-pc.zendo.com> from Andy Valencia at "Jul 23, 2000 07:03:02 am" To: Andy Valencia <vandys(a)zendo.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 08:22:52 +1000 (EST) CC: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL68 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Andy Valencia: > I'm trying to boot the image v7_rl02_1145 from sim_2.3d, and get: > > PDP-11 simulator V2.3d > sim> at rl02 /users/vandys/tmp/v7/v7_rl02_1145 > sim> b rl02 > @ > > I can type things to the '@' prompt, but it never does anything... > Andy Valencia At the bottom of simh_doc.txt in the Supnik emulator sources, it says: UNIX V7 is contained on a single RL02 disk image. To boot UNIX: sim> set cpu 18b sim> set rl0 RL02 sim> att rl0 unix_v7_rl.dsk sim> boot rl0 @boot New Boot, known devices are hp ht rk rl rp tm vt : rl(0,0)rl2unix # A smaller image is contained on a single RK05 disk image. To boot UNIX: sim> set cpu 18b sim> att rk0 unix_v7_rk.dsk sim> boot rk0 @boot New Boot, known devices are hp ht rk rl rp tm vt : rk(0,0)rkunix # STTY -LCASE # Hope this helps! Cheers, Warren

24 years, 5 months

[pups] AT&T Unix Operating System for Writers Workbench Software?

by Tim Shoppa

In a big batch of 9-tracks and RL01 packs rescued this morning, I have two tapes, one labeled AT&T ** 66938 ** UNIX OPERATING SYSTEM FOR WRITERS WORKBENCH SOFTWARE TPname: LOAD PGM FOR PDP 11/70 the other labeled AT&T ** 66611 ** UNIX OPERATING SYSTEM WRITERS WORKBENCH SOFTWARE TPname: LOAD PGM FOR VAX 11/780 11/750 Both have copyright dates of 1984. You can see scans of the original labels (high-res scans, they're big files!) at http://www.trailing-edge.com/www/wwtapes/ I won't be able to make binary copies of these until this evening, but does anyone know where these tapes fit into the scheme of AT&T stuff? i.e. are these custom-built SYS III and SYS V systems? Is the PDP-11/70 tape perhaps eligible for inclusion in the PUPS archive under the SCO license? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA65501 for pups-liszt; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 08:58:53 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Cuenta para lectura de e-mail <cjd(a)sunmexico.sun.com> Tue Jul 11 08:54:53 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA65497 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 08:58:52 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id IAA55176 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 08:58:09 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from mercury.Sun.COM (mercury.Sun.COM [192.9.25.1]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA65457 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 08:55:55 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from cjd(a)sunmexico.sun.com) Received: from sunmex.sunmexico.Sun.COM ([129.153.198.1]) by mercury.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA05770 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 15:55:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ses1 (ses1 [129.153.198.107]) by sunmex.sunmexico.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1/ENSMAIL,v1.7) with SMTP id RAA16145 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:55:06 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <200007102255.RAA16145(a)sunmex.sunmexico.Sun.COM> Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:54:53 -0500 (CDT) From: Cuenta para lectura de e-mail <cjd(a)sunmexico.sun.com> Reply-To: Cuenta para lectura de e-mail <cjd(a)sunmexico.sun.com> Subject: Re: [pups] AT&T Unix Operating System for Writers Workbench Software? To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: PCA20B34lXH9C2cS6nYCoQ== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 CDE Version 1.3 SunOS 5.7 sun4u sparc Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk I believe WWB was an offshoot or derivative of PWB, the Programmer's Workbench, which was a special version of V6. I think WWB was where "pic" first showed up. PWB was, I think V6 with a few extra utilities added. WWB may be the same. - Chris Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA65907 for pups-liszt; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:52:52 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Tue Jul 11 09:51:19 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA65903 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:52:51 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id JAA55561 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:52:08 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA65895 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:52:05 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from SHOPPA(a)timaxp.trailing-edge.com) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 19:51:19 -0400 Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 19:51:19 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU Message-Id: <000710195119.202002e2(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: [pups] AT&T Unix Operating System for Writers Workbench Software? Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >I believe WWB was an offshoot or derivative of PWB, the Programmer's Workbench, >which was a special version of V6. I think WWB was where "pic" first showed >up. PWB was, I think V6 with a few extra utilities added. WWB may be the same. I don't think what I've found here is that major. It starts with a Makefile: # NOTICE-NOT TO BE DISCLOSED OUTSIDE BELL SYS EXCEPT UNDER WRITTEN AGRMT # Makefile: Writer's Workbench system version 2.0.1.10, 5/26/83 # makefile for the WRITER'S WORKBENCH SYSTEM # This package includes over 30 programs that suggest improvements # to written documents, including improved versions of the # Style and Diction programs as well as many more writing aids. and the README says: This file gives instructions for building and installing the Writer's Workbench system source code. This information is also contained in the document "UNIX(TM) Writer's Workbench Software Installation and Administration Guide." These particular tapes have been stored in absolutely horrible conditions (pretty much kept in an outdoors storage shed during both winter and summer for the past decade) and I'm going to have to bake and/or lubricate them before I make a not-half-assed attempt at recovering them. The PDP11/70 tape is particularly bad (it actually broke when I was just loading it into the drive!) and it may be a goner. I don't see any obvious mentions of 'pic' in what I read so far. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA66034 for pups-liszt; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 10:19:32 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Grant Maizels <grant.maizels(a)cogita.com.au> Tue Jul 11 10:21:30 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA66030 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 10:19:31 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id KAA55777 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 10:18:48 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from sydnt4.cogita.local ([203.14.179.201]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA66021 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 10:18:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from grant.maizels(a)cogita.com.au) Message-ID: <6334A5F54DFE5F4FA3032AF1BE95A0F30F7583(a)sydnt4.cogita.local> From: Grant Maizels <grant.maizels(a)cogita.com.au> To: "'Tim Shoppa'" <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>, PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU Subject: RE: [pups] AT&T Unix Operating System for Writers Workbench Softw are? Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 10:21:30 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Tim, Writers Work Bench was an extension to the basic troff/nroff tools developed earlier, but took new directions. It included a whole lot of new programs like diction (a grammar checker??) which were more to do with the content than the formatting. I think that pic was developed separately by bwk for a research version. I have never used WWB but I have some documentation on it somewhere at home. I believe that it was sold with source as an add on for various Unicies. Grant Maizels grant(a)maizels.nu -----Original Message----- From: Tim Shoppa [mailto:SHOPPA@trailing-edge.com] Sent: Tuesday, 11 July 2000 9:51 To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU Subject: Re: [pups] AT&T Unix Operating System for Writers Workbench Software? >I believe WWB was an offshoot or derivative of PWB, the Programmer's Workbench, >which was a special version of V6. I think WWB was where "pic" first showed >up. PWB was, I think V6 with a few extra utilities added. WWB may be the same. I don't think what I've found here is that major. It starts with a Makefile: # NOTICE-NOT TO BE DISCLOSED OUTSIDE BELL SYS EXCEPT UNDER WRITTEN AGRMT # Makefile: Writer's Workbench system version 2.0.1.10, 5/26/83 # makefile for the WRITER'S WORKBENCH SYSTEM # This package includes over 30 programs that suggest improvements # to written documents, including improved versions of the # Style and Diction programs as well as many more writing aids. and the README says: This file gives instructions for building and installing the Writer's Workbench system source code. This information is also contained in the document "UNIX(TM) Writer's Workbench Software Installation and Administration Guide." These particular tapes have been stored in absolutely horrible conditions (pretty much kept in an outdoors storage shed during both winter and summer for the past decade) and I'm going to have to bake and/or lubricate them before I make a not-half-assed attempt at recovering them. The PDP11/70 tape is particularly bad (it actually broke when I was just loading it into the drive!) and it may be a goner. I don't see any obvious mentions of 'pic' in what I read so far. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA66635 for pups-liszt; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 12:25:07 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Tim Shoppa [mailto:SHOPPA@trailing-edge.com] Tue Jul 11 12:12:45 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA66631 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 12:25:06 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id MAA62138 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 12:24:22 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from host.kw.igs.net (host.kw.igs.net [216.58.99.2]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA66582 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 12:14:16 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from schoedel(a)kw.igs.net) Received: from [216.58.99.49] (ttyA11.kw.igs.net [216.58.99.49]) by host.kw.igs.net (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id WAA14173 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 22:13:26 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from schoedel(a)kw.igs.net) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <v04210100b5902e0219c2(a)[216.58.99.172]> In-Reply-To: <6334A5F54DFE5F4FA3032AF1BE95A0F30F7583(a)sydnt4.cogita.local> References: <6334A5F54DFE5F4FA3032AF1BE95A0F30F7583(a)sydnt4.cogita.local> Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 22:12:45 -0400 To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU From: Kevin Schoedel <schoedel(a)kw.igs.net> Subject: [pups] RE: AT&T Unix Operating System for Writers Workbench Softw are? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On 2000/07/11 at 10:21am +1000, Grant Maizels <grant.maizels(a)cogita.com.au> wrote: >Writers Work Bench was an extension to the basic troff/nroff tools developed >earlier, but took new directions. It included a whole lot of new programs >like diction (a grammar checker??) which were more to do with the content >than the formatting. I think that pic was developed separately by bwk for a >research version. I have never used WWB but I have some documentation on it >somewhere at home. I believe that it was sold with source as an add on for >various Unicies. I have a little documentation here, mostly three papers from BSTJ vol. 62 no. 6, July/August 1983. It did contain -- as the makefile says -- 'diction' (basically a search for 'bad' phrases), 'style' (which generated readabilty and other statistics for text), 'punct' (a basic punctuation checker), and a handful of other similar programs. Importantly for the PUPS archive, I'm pretty certain that AT&T retained ownership of WWB when it sold UNIX, so it wouldn't be covered by the SCO license. I have no idea who owns it now. 'pic', along with troff and such, was in *Documenter's* Workbench. -- Kevin Schoedel schoedel(a)kw.igs.net

24 years, 5 months

[pups] Pre-startup questions

by W . Suika Roberts

I just (yesterday) aquired a microPDP 11/73 -- it had been used by my school to operate some sort of geological test equipment that is no longer present, and was working when it went out of service, who knows how long ago. She has a pair of RX02s, an RD52a inside her case, and that's all I've determined so far, since I haven't opened her up, really, yet. I'm interested in documentation on monitor commands, what the boot sequence should look like, and other such software stuff right now. I'm also wondering about useful things like: `Is the part number in a standard location on each card', `What is the form factor difference between Q-bus and Unibus', `Will starting her up trip the breaker', and `How much space is there in that little rackmount' In the near future, I'd like to find ethernet and SCSI adaptors for her, and so am wondering where parts might be aquired. Thanks, Suika (very happy) -- ssfr(a)unm.edu The computer is not mightier than a cup of coffee, or other liquid, or a young school age child with a tool box... --L. E. Waltz <a href="http://www.unm.edu/~ssfr/">Suika no homepage</a>

24 years, 5 months

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TUHS July 2000