I've assembled some notes from old manuals and other sources
on the formats used for on-disk file systems through the
Seventh Edition:
http://www.cita.utoronto.ca/~norman/old-unix/old-fs.html
Additional notes, comments on style, and whatnot are welcome.
(It may be sensible to send anything in the last two categories
directly to me, rather than to the whole list.)
I'm maybe going to acquire an 11/23. It looks like this is kind of
small for running v7 and/or 2.11 as it has no split I/D (it does have
an MMU in it but only an 18-bit one I think).
How similar is the physical hardware (card cage I mean really) of this
to things like 11/73,11/83? I'm wondering if I might one day be able
to acquire a card-set from something bigger and install it in the same
rack, my logic being that cards are a lot easier to get from far away
than racks, and this machine is only a few miles away.
Thanks
--tim
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From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
Message-Id: <000701070037.262009c5(a)trailing-edge.com>
Subject: Re: [pups] 11/23 and other qbus machines
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>I'm maybe going to acquire an 11/23. It looks like this is kind of
>small for running v7 and/or 2.11 as it has no split I/D (it does have
>an MMU in it but only an 18-bit one I think).
Yeah, perhaps the best choice here would be the set of RL02's I found with
a V6 system on RL02 packs. Hook up a RLV11 or a RLV12, a couple of
RL02 drives, and you're in business.
>How similar is the physical hardware (card cage I mean really) of this
>to things like 11/73,11/83? I'm wondering if I might one day be able
>to acquire a card-set from something bigger and install it in the same
>rack, my logic being that cards are a lot easier to get from far away
>than racks, and this machine is only a few miles away.
It's very similar, but it's also rather likely that the card cage that your
11/23 comes in will only support 18-bit bus addresses. If you want
to run 2.11BSD that's not really enough memory. For some
details about what Q-bus hardware supports 18-bit stuff and what
Q-bus hardware supports 22-bit stuff, please look at your Micronotes,
specifically #5, _Q22 Compatible Options_. If you aren't lucky enough
to own a set, you can browse them at
http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/microno…
In large part, it's impossible to specify a PDP-11 as a "PDP-11/23" and
know with any certainty what any single part of it is. There's much
more to a system than the CPU (and note there are several very different
CPU boards sold as 11/23's), you also have to consider backplane, memory,
and disk/tape storage. It'd be nice if Warren linked to some not-on-
Minnie resources for these subjects important to many PUPS members (hint hint,
nudge nudge!)
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Sat Jul 1 21:11:44 2000
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: [pups] Re: PDP-11 ptrs on minnie
In-Reply-To: <000701070037.262009c5(a)trailing-edge.com> from Tim Shoppa at "Jul 1, 2000 7: 0:37 am"
To: SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 21:11:44 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society)
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In article by Tim Shoppa:
> It'd be nice if Warren linked to some not-on-
> Minnie resources for these subjects important to many PUPS members (hint hint,
> nudge nudge!)
Send me the URLs & tell me where on http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS
you'd like to see them :-)
Warren
OK, I think I'm figuring out how to install Unix System III on a
11/45. In particular, I mount the first tape on a MT tape drive, get
a RP04 up and spinning, and boot from tape:
UNIX tape boot loader
UNIX -- Initial Load: Tape-to-Disk
The type of disk drive on which the Root file system will reside,
as well as the type of tape drive that will be used for Tape 1
must be specified below.
Answer the questions with a 'y' or 'n' followed by
a carriage return or line feed.
There is no type-ahead -- wait for the question to complete.
The character '@' will kill the entire line,
while the character '#' will erase the last character typed.
RP03 at address 176710?: n
RP04/5/6 at address 176700?: y
Drive number (0-7)?: 0
Disk drive 0 selected.
Mount a formatted pack on drive 0.
Ready?: y
TU10/TM11 at address 172520?: y
Drive number (0-7)?: 0
Tape drive 0 selected.
The tape on drive 0 will be read from the current position
at 800bpi, 5120 characters (10 blocks) per record,
and written onto the pack on drive 0 starting at block 0.
Ready?: y
Size of filesystem to be copied is 6000 blocks.
What is the pack volume label? (e.g. p0001): p0001
The pack will be labelled p0001.
The boot block for your type of disk drive will now be installed.
The file system copy is now complete.
To boot the basic unix for your disk and tape drives
as indicated above, mount this pack on drive 0
and read in the boot block (block 0) using
whatever means you have available; see romboot(8), 70boot(8).
Then boot the program unixhptm using diskboot(8).
Normally: #0=unixhptm
The system will initially come up single-user; see init(8).
If you have an upper case only console terminal,
you must execute: stty lcase; see stty(1).
After UNIX is up, link the file unixhptm to unix using ln(1).
# ln /unixhptm /unix
Set the date(1).
Good Luck!
The tape will now be rewound.
[Now I boot from the RP04]:
#0=unixhptm
UNIX/3.0.1: unixhptm
real mem = 253952 bytes
avail mem = 187584 bytes
unix
single-user
# ls -l
total 805
drwxr-xr-x 2 root sys 32 Feb 15 1979 bck
drwxrwxr-x 2 bin bin 1312 Dec 15 1981 bin
drwxr-xr-x 2 root sys 528 Dec 15 1981 dev
drwxr-xr-x 3 root sys 1056 Oct 26 14:57 etc
drwxrwxr-x 2 bin bin 272 Dec 15 1981 lib
drwxrwxrwx 2 bin bin 32 May 31 1980 lost+found
drwxr-xr-x 2 root sys 32 Feb 15 1979 mnt
drwxrwxr-x 3 bin bin 368 Dec 15 1981 stand
-rwxrwxr-x 1 sys sys 51382 Nov 9 1982 unixhpht
-rwxrwxr-x 1 sys sys 50778 Sep 3 1980 unixhptm
-rwxrwxr-x 1 sys sys 49380 Sep 3 1980 unixrkht
-rwxrwxr-x 1 sys sys 48782 Sep 3 1980 unixrktm
-rwxrwxr-x 1 sys sys 50172 Sep 3 1980 unixrlht
-rwxrwxr-x 1 sys sys 49574 Sep 3 1980 unixrltm
-rwxrwxr-x 1 sys sys 49704 Sep 3 1980 unixrpht
-rwxrwxr-x 1 sys sys 49106 Sep 3 1980 unixrptm
drwxr-xr-x 2 sys sys 32 Aug 19 08:46 usr
But what do I do next? There's a bunch of 5120-byte-record files still
on the tape, and the "/bin" on the root filesystem doesn't have "tar" or
"restor". It *does* have cpio, and I think that's what I want to use. So
what's the next step?
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Sun Jun 25 18:52:47 2000
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: Re: Installing SYSTEM III; stuck!
In-Reply-To: <000624211802.2620014a(a)trailing-edge.com> from Tim Shoppa at "Jun 24, 2000 9:18: 2 pm"
To: SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 18:52:47 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society)
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In article by Tim Shoppa:
> But what do I do next? There's a bunch of 5120-byte-record files still
> on the tape, and the "/bin" on the root filesystem doesn't have "tar" or
> "restor". It *does* have cpio, and I think that's what I want to use. So
> what's the next step?
>From the PDP-11 SysIII in the archive, the files are cpio archives. The
/usr/src/man/docs/setup file explains what to do next. It's in nroff
format, but I don't know what macro switch to use to print it out
correctly. I'll send it in a separate e-mail to avoid clogging up the list.
Warren
Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:
> Why can't we just stay on big family ? Of course FreeBSD has it's
> archives elsewhere, but still no reason to divide instead of unite ?
According to Warren's Charter, PUPS and TUHS are both specifically for UNIX.
His Charter defines UNIX as follows:
"Unix is defined as the set of operating systems who can trace their source
code ancestry back to the 1st to 7th Editions of research UNIX from Bell Labs."
Any system that fits this definition automatically falls under the original
UNIX copyright and may not be distributed outside the circle of UNIX source
licensees. Therefore, if you think that FreeBSD fits this definition and
belongs in this group, you must stop publicly distributing it. Otherwise, it
does not belong in the archive or on these lists.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
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>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Tue Jun 20 00:27:09 2000
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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:27:09 -0400
From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
Message-Id: <000619102709.262000b0(a)trailing-edge.com>
Subject: Re: [Newbie alert!] Disk usage of various Unices
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>I recently obtained a beast which appears to be a PDP 11/53+, and I want
>to run some Unix on it (Wahey!). I've got a small problem though: It
>only has one(!) RD32A disk (42MB). I know that this probably won't be
>enough to hold a complete distribution, but which release can I install
>bare-bones on that disk?
You can put the root partition of 2.11BSD on there quite nicely, it'll
live in 8 Mbytes. Trimming down /usr to 42 Mbytes will depend on what
exactly you need from it, though. Certainly you can set up a system
with compilers, etc., even though you won't be able to have all the
sources online at the same time.
>I might be able to slip in another MFM disk (but I don't have something
>bigger than 21 MB at hand), provided I can low-level format it.
You want to read Terry Kennedy's document on adding third-party disks
to DEC RQDX3 controllers. You can find it at
ftp://ftp.spc.edu/third-party-disks.txt
Information about formatting, jumper settings, etc., is all there.
Tim.
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>From Andrew Sporner <andy.sporner(a)networkengines.com> Tue Jun 20 00:30:39 2000
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From: Andrew Sporner <andy.sporner(a)networkengines.com>
To: "'db(a)aptant.com'" <db(a)aptant.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: RE: save everything and divisiveness
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:30:39 -0400
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+ my $0.02 makes $1.00
>From my perspective I have watched this argument on this
list about purism and otherwise.
>From a practical sense, historical trueness makes sense
when we are considering changes to something. That is
to evaluate whether it was better before or after; with
the ultimate goal of coming up with a truly usefull sytem.
Otherwise O/S researchers would never be able to make
advancements because they would be repeating each others
mistakes. But to take a lesson from history makes having
such an archive of old source important.
To get hung up on a particular release makes sense I guess
if you are a collector, such as one who collects vases
because that is an art form. A vase from the Ming chinesse
period is worth more if it has not been modified (for instance
some later owner decides that there are not enough flowers
on the vase--so he adds some). However with Systems software
this is not the case because it is not a tangible item such
as a processor such as a PDP-11 or PDP-8. I know many people
that still run PDP-8's (I have one myself), but universally
ever user of the '8 is trying to make the software on it
run better and more efficiently.
So I would not be one to castigate some pioneers of systems
software whoses names happened not to be K&R. I am sure that
the both Kernigan and Richie both are marveled at what Unix
has become. In fact I believe one of them went on to write
Plan-9 which is really off-the-wall compared to their earlier
work.
Good software is inherrently in a steady process of evolution.
The only piece of software I have ever seen that never evolved
was the classic "Hello World" program that everybody learns to
write on their first lesson in programming.
OK, That's it...
Andy Sporner
>
> My $0.02:
>
>
> I once wondered whether the techniques of literary textual
> criticism could be used in order to determine whether a Linux,
> FreeBSD, groff -- whatever! -- is in any way derived from an
> earlier work. Textual criticism considers a work by examining
> several or all of the extant textual variations in an attempt
> to determine what the author originally wrote; it has been
> used to reconstruct the "original" texts of the ancient as
> well as some modern writers, such as James Joyce. It
> yields a tree of texts, in which the root is the "original,"
> and the sibling children of any node are the descendants of a
> common, perhaps hypothetical, text. I don't know much
> else about it, except that its results may depend on alot
> of knowledge and informed speculation. The textual critics
> work bottom-up to arrive at an original text; I am thinking
> of a top-down process, working from an original text, to show that a
> work lower in a tree is derived from the original. If such a
> technique were valid at all, its validity would only be improved
> with the availablity of many, many "texts." The techniques might be
> more useful where, for example, there were several V7 tapes
> that people
> thought were original, but which, on inspection, turned out
> to be different.
> In this situation, textual criticism might be used to
> reconstruct a "true," V7
> release tape, and, in this situation, would be a bottom-up
> application of the techniques.
>
> In any event, I think that it is important to preserve alot of
> tapes, and to keep them separate with as much information as
> possible about their pedigree. If someone ever did use such
> a technique -- or any other technique -- to reconstruct a
> "true" release,
> it is important that they document their work and not throw away the
> tapes that contributed to the "true" tape, because even more
> tapes may appear in the future which could lead to
> the reconstruction of an even truer tape.
>
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Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote:
> Had it ever occurred to you that others might not delineate "Unix"
> in quite the same way in which you do?
In this case my definition of UNIX agrees with that set by the Charters for
both lists.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
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>From "Joseph S. Barrera III" <joe(a)barrera.org> Tue Jun 20 01:17:01 2000
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> By the Charter I'm asking you to take this elsewhere.
Bwa ha ha.
That's pretty funny, Michael.
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>From "Broadway, Rusel" <RBROADWAY(a)tbs-ltd.co.uk> Tue Jun 20 01:29:44 2000
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From: "Broadway, Rusel" <RBROADWAY(a)tbs-ltd.co.uk>
To: "'pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au'" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:29:44 +0100
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I agree with Thor: Either grow up or get out!
Rusel Broadway
Senior Systems Analyst (e-mail Rbroadway(a)tbs-ltd.co.uk
<mailto:Rbroadway@tbs-ltd.co.uk> , DDI: 01206-25-5745)
The Book Service Ltd.
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D259143015-19062000>I =
agree with Thor:=20
Either grow up or get out!</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 =
Transitional//EN"><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 =
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<P><IMG height=3D48 src=3D"cid:259143015@19062000-0583" =
width=3D48><FONT color=3D#800000=20
face=3DScript size=3D6>Rusel Broadway </FONT><BR><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Senior=20
Systems Analyst (e-mail </FONT><A=20
href=3D"mailto:Rbroadway@tbs-ltd.co.uk">Rbroadway(a)tbs-ltd.co.uk</A><FONT=
=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>, DDI: 01206-25-5745)</FONT><BR><FONT =
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>From "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> Tue Jun 20 03:59:54 2000
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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:59:54 -0700
From: "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com>
To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: The Unix History Graphing Project...
Message-ID: <20000619105954.D2592(a)dragon.nuxi.com>
Reply-To: obrien(a)NUXI.com
References: <0006191437.AA05415(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>
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In-Reply-To: <0006191437.AA05415(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG on Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 09:37:31AM -0500
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On Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 09:37:31AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> There are also BabyVAXen, which is what NutBSDists and others talking about
^^^^^
This is *TOTALY* uncalled for.
Warren, Michael has definitely crossed the bounds of lack of respect for
others. Would you please consider moderating his posts?
--
-- David (obrien(a)NUXI.com)
Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote:
> [snipped discussion of clones and workalikes not containing any original UNIX
> code and thus of no relevance to this group]
By the Charter I'm asking you to take this elsewhere.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
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>From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Tue Jun 20 01:11:00 2000
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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:11:00 -0400
From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com>
To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au, tuhs(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
Message-ID: <20000619111100.A5557(a)rek.tjls.com>
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References: <0006191440.AA05429(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>
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On Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 09:40:50AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote:
>
> > [snipped discussion of clones and workalikes not containing any original UNIX
> > code and thus of no relevance to this group]
>
> By the Charter I'm asking you to take this elsewhere.
I'm asking you, once more, to take your fanaticism elsewhere. I'm also
asking the moderator, once more, in light of this, your recent attacks
on Keith Bostic, your totally gratuitous "NutBSD" swipe in your most
recent missive, and your general misbehaviour and abysmal nettiquite in
your time on this list, to cause you to take your fanaticism elsewhere.
Had it ever occurred to you that others might not delineate "Unix"
in quite the same way in which you do? Of course not. Your opinion
is the only one that matters, and if anyone else doesn't see it that
way, well, then, by God, you'll just have to spew flamage until he
goes away. Great. Really, absolutely what's needed in a preservation
project.
Thor
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Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)cley.com> wrote:
> * Markus Leypold wrote:
> > On the other side, Michael has ventured, to port BSD4.3 to modern
> > VAXens (a noble enterprise in my eyes),
>
> Weell, I don't know about that. All them modern Vaxens aren't really
> *original* are they? Got microprocessors in, half of 'em. Never did
> hold with any kind of computer you didn't need a lorry to move,
> myself.
Now, stop right there! I'm an international agent and I'm armed! :-)
To start with, I don't want to use the term "modern", ever. As for what VAXen I
support and target, my primary emphasis is on BI/XMI VAXen, which are very big
and are absolute miracles of architectural beauty. They don't undermine the
original VAXness a single bit. On the opposite, they actually implement many of
the astounding miracles of the holy original VAX Architecture Reference Manual
that the original VAX-11s were only going to. I also place a high emphasis on
Q22-bus MicroVAXen, as they are readily available and don't require special
power, and yet they fully comply with the proper VAX architecture.
There are also BabyVAXen, which is what NutBSDists and others talking about
"modern VAXen" are probably talking about. Those are indeed very cost-reduced,
VAXness-deprived, and PeeCee-fied. I do plan on supporting them, just so that I
support every VAX ever made, but I by no means endorse them. They are not real
VAXen.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
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Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:
> And some use emulators within modern systems to get a feel for 'the
> genuine article'.
No, no emulator can give you a feel for the genuine article. You won't get that
feel until you get your toes crushed by an H9642 side panel, get your knuckles
scraped by a BA23, or take a day off with your back hurting after carrying an
RA81 across the campus.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
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>From Martijn van Buul <pino(a)dohd.cx> Tue Jun 20 00:08:36 2000
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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:08:36 +0200
From: Martijn van Buul <pino(a)dohd.cx>
To: PUPS mailinglist <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: [Newbie alert!] Disk usage of various Unices
Message-ID: <20000619160836.A12288(a)mud.stack.nl>
Reply-To: Martijn van Buul <pino(a)dohd.cx>
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Hello!
I recently obtained a beast which appears to be a PDP 11/53+, and I want
to run some Unix on it (Wahey!). I've got a small problem though: It
only has one(!) RD32A disk (42MB). I know that this probably won't be
enough to hold a complete distribution, but which release can I install
bare-bones on that disk?
I might be able to slip in another MFM disk (but I don't have something
bigger than 21 MB at hand), provided I can low-level format it.
Your help is greatly appreciated..
--
Martijn van Buul - Pino(a)dohd.cx - http://www.stack.nl/~martijnb/
Visit OuterSpace: mud.stack.nl 3333
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In article by Alan F R Bain:
> Warren,
> Maybe it would be possible to have list guidelines.
> Alan
Here is the PUPS list charter. If you have violent opposition to it, then
please e-mail me.
Warren
The PUPS list on minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au promotes communication between those
people who are interested in the versions of Unix which ran on PDP-11s. Unix
is defined as the set of operating systems who can trace their source code
ancestry back to the 1st to 7th Editions of research UNIX from Bell Labs.
Topics that fall within the list's charter include:
+ how to install, configure & maintain a PDP-11 Unix system
+ discussion of PDP-11 hardware issues related to PDP-11 Unix
+ applications for PDP-11 Unix systems
+ modification of PDP-11 Unix systems
+ technical comparisons between PDP-11 Unix systems
+ anecdotes relating to the history & development of PDP-11 Unix
+ discussion & announcements of the contents of the PDP-11
section of the Unix Archive
Topics that fall outside of the list's charter include:
+ discussion on non PDP-11 Unix systems, unless they are being
compared technically with PDP-11 Unix systems
+ attacks on particular individuals, groups or organisations
+ postings which disenfranchise or alienate a individual list
subscriber, a group of subscribers, or a particular version
of PDP-11 Unix
The list will, in general, not be moderated. However, if a list subscriber
continues to send off-charter postings to the list after warnings to that
effect, then their postings may be moderated.
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>From Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mon Jun 19 17:58:11 2000
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From: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
To: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au, quasijarus(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG,
tuhs(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
In-reply-to: <0006162012.AA01527(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> (msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG)
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD-Alpha in the TUHS/PUPS archive 4BSD area
References: <0006162012.AA01527(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>
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> Delivered-To: leypold(a)lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 15:12:55 CDT
> From: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
> Sender: owner-tuhs(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
>
> Quasijarus Consortium members and TUHS/PUPS archive users,
>
> Today Tim Shoppa has read the HP300 4.4BSD-Alpha distribution on a 9-track 6250
> BPI tape and I have just put it in the archive. It is in
>
> Distributions/4bsd/4.4BSD-Alpha
>
> Of course we generally don't do 4.4BSD, but we do include it in the archival
> and preservation section of our project.
Hi Friends,
I really appreciate that. I'm - generally - more a reader than a user
of ancient code, so concentration on a certain version (or
architecture, i.e. BSD vs the VAX or others) is not as important for
me as is an uninterupted, complete coverage of historical versions.
Having access to this version of BSD4.4 and (soon) all the other
stuff, Tim Shoppa discovered recently, is really GREAT for me.
Please keep everything You can. I think I can predict reliably, future
generations of software historians will be very thankful.
Regards -- Markus
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>From Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mon Jun 19 18:11:45 2000
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From: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
To: apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
In-reply-to: <m2wvjp88lr.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain> (apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org)
Subject: Re: The Unix History Graphing Project...
References: <0006162041.AA01624(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20000616174408.A20743(a)rek.tjls.com> <20000616161053.F35577(a)dragon.nuxi.com> <m2wvjp88lr.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain>
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> Delivered-To: leypold(a)lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> From: "A. P. Garcia" <apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org>
> Date: 17 Jun 2000 00:16:48 +0000
> Lines: 13
> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0804 (Gnus v5.8.4) Emacs/20.6
> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
>
> "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> writes:
>
> > > I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS
> > > projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory
> > > material of this nature on the lists.
> >
> > I have to agree. From his emails, Mr. Solokov is a rather rabid individual.
>
> No, I agree with whomever it was - I think Patrick Henry - that said
> something like "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend
> to the death your right to say it."
>
> You can always send his mail to /dev/null if you don't like it.
I agree. Still I'd prefer (and humbly ask) from Michael Solokov a more
diplomatic attitude. As far as I can see, Mr Bostic has contributed to
UNIX in general and to the PUPS later, which entitles him to being
treated somewhat more respectfully :-)
UNIX is variance, not a one-size-fits-all system.
On the other side, Michael has ventured, to port BSD4.3 to modern
VAXens (a noble enterprise in my eyes), and it would make me sad, to
see so excellent and noble :-) men fight each other. Let's avoid that,
and let there be no war in the (ancient) UNIX camp.
I hope Michael had no intention to hurt the feelings of Keith Bostic.
Regards -- Markus
>
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>From Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mon Jun 19 18:16:01 2000
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From: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
To: SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com
Cc: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
In-reply-to: <000616202913.262000b0(a)trailing-edge.com> (message from Tim
Shoppa on Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:29:13 -0400)
Subject: Re: Yet Another "where does it fit" question
References: <000616202913.262000b0(a)trailing-edge.com>
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> Delivered-To: leypold(a)lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:29:13 -0400
> From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
>
> Yesterday I asked:
>
> >Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS
> >Unix". Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's
> >different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-) Terry
> >didn't remember...
>
> Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between
> 2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by
> Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.) Is this something
> worthwhile to put in the archive? At the moment, looking at the
> timeline of PDP-11 Unices currently in the archive, we have at the
> "fairly recent" end:
>
> 2.9 from 1983
> 2.9.1BSD from 1983
> 2.10BSD from 1987
> 2.10.1BSD from 1989
> 2.11BSD from the past year
>
> Would it be a worthwhile thing to put 2.10.2 up as an intermediate
> step filling in the ten year gap between 2.10.1 and the current 2.11?
> I'm worried that whenever I find a metric buttload of Unix tapes that my
Hehe. That seems to be a real danger :-)
> proposals of adding everything in them to the archive may just be
> adding too much volume that folks simply aren't interested in.
Hi Tim,
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE. Seriously: If You ever do not want to put
something in the archive, give it to me. I have the impression one
needs the intermediate versions to be ever able to crosscheck the
transfer of features between the diverse branches.
Regards Markus.
>
> --
> Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
> Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
> 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
> Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
>
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>From Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mon Jun 19 18:48:59 2000
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From: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
To: robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk
Cc: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com, PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com
In-reply-to: <G$mbSLAfS1S5EweW(a)ruffnready.co.uk> (message from Robin Birch on
Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:36:15 +0100)
Subject: Re: Yet Another "where does it fit" question
References: <200006170209.TAA24691(a)moe.2bsd.com> <G$mbSLAfS1S5EweW(a)ruffnready.co.uk>
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
> Delivered-To: leypold(a)lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:36:15 +0100
> Cc: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com
> From: Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk>
> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
>
> In message <200006170209.TAA24691(a)moe.2bsd.com>, Steven M. Schultz
> <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> writes
> >Hi --
> >
> > I hope I'm in the right mailing list :)
> >
> >> From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
> >> Yesterday I asked:
> >>
> >> >Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS
> >> >Unix". Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's
> >> >different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-) Terry
> >> >didn't remember...
> >>
> >> Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between
> >> 2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by
> >> Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.) Is this something
>
> > I think it would be - I didn't save a copy for myself ;)
> >
> For what it's worth I think this brings in an interesting branch to the
> archive. Should there be a space for stuff we should hold for purely
> historical reference purposes and a different one for stuff that would
> normally be interesting to the average user group punter?. This might
> have some effects on the archive structure.
Well, perhaps not the archive structure should be changed. What I miss
is more something like a getting-started-guide: Which versions you
could try first with - let's say the emulator - and how to boot them.
Regards -- Markus
>
> Robin
>
> ____________________________________________________________________
> Robin Birch robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk
>
> M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD Old computers and radios always welcome
>
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>From Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mon Jun 19 18:58:21 2000
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From: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
To: mallison(a)konnections.com
Cc: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
In-reply-to: <007901bfd875$cb8aaea0$ab7a3fd1@oemcomputer>
(mallison(a)konnections.com)
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
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> Delivered-To: leypold(a)lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> From: "Mike Allison" <mallison(a)konnections.com>
> Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:05:01 -0600
> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
>
> I think I understand what Michael is saying. Or at least it means something
> to me.
>
> I don't have a lot vested here, nor have I always followed the issues with
> PUPS and now TUHS.
>
> Certainly a big part of this was running AT&T UNIX systems on these
> machines. And, TUHS might only ever be about UNIX as UNIX (R).
Well, the demarcation lines are not wuite clearly drawn. Only
yesterday my eyes fell on a paragraph in Peter Salus Book: 4.xBSD
brought ... improvments ... also a port to the Intel 386/486
Architecture by Bill Jolitz. Well, 386BSD became FreeBSD and it's
offspring.
Why can't we just stay on big family ? Of course FreeBSD has it's
archives elsewhere, but still no reason to divide instead of unite ?
>
> The fact that you COULD run a unix clone -- Linux, Open BSD, what have you
> is fine. We can argue that true BSD was a set of improvements or additions
> to UNIX which may even have been sanctioned in part by the UNIX team. But
> the fact that you run Linux, Open BSD, MINIX or a MSDOS clone is not
> pertinent to running UNIX System N.n
>
> Using the GNU C Compiler is not pertinent to the AT&T K&R C compiler, per
> se.
>
> Is the ultimate purpose then of the list to keep the machines running
> regardless of OS, or to run AT&T UNIX on these systems.
>
> I won't fault Michael for his perspective. But I guess we should agree to
> define the parameters of the list, or agree NOT to define them.
Well, not to be disprespectful to honorable members of the community
certainly should be a parameter :-)
It makes me sad to see all this.
Regards -- Markus
> Just one insignificant soul's opinion (JOISO)
>
> -Mike
>
> Mike Allison
> Stranded in Utah, USA
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>
> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
> Date: Saturday, June 17, 2000 9:09 AM
> Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
>
>
> >If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX.
> And
> >I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't care
> >about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are, they
> are
> >still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article.
> >
>
>
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>From Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mon Jun 19 18:59:40 2000
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From: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
To: kshuff(a)fast.net
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
In-reply-to: <394BA7D6.52DD(a)fast.net> (message from kshuff on Sat, 17 Jun 2000
12:31:18 -0400)
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
References: <0006171504.AA02620(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> <394BA7D6.52DD(a)fast.net>
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> Delivered-To: leypold(a)lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 12:31:18 -0400
> From: kshuff <kshuff(a)fast.net>
> Organization: I'm not organized
> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
>
> Michael Sokolov wrote:
>
> > still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article.
> >
>
> That might be fine and dandy for you, but other people do not share
> your views
> and should not have to be criticized or belittled because they run
> more "modern"
> hardware and not true UNIX. We're not all living 20 years in the
> past.
And some use emulators within modern systems to get a feel for 'the
genuine article'.
-- Markus
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>From Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)cley.com> Mon Jun 19 20:32:14 2000
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To: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
Cc: apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: The Unix History Graphing Project...
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* Markus Leypold wrote:
> On the other side, Michael has ventured, to port BSD4.3 to modern
> VAXens (a noble enterprise in my eyes),
Weell, I don't know about that. All them modern Vaxens aren't really
*original* are they? Got microprocessors in, half of 'em. Never did
hold with any kind of computer you didn't need a lorry to move,
myself.
--tim
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>From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Mon Jun 19 21:19:11 2000
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From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com>
To: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
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In-Reply-To: <200006190858.KAA24686(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>; from leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de on Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 10:58:21AM +0200
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On Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 10:58:21AM +0200, Markus Leypold wrote:
>
>
> > Delivered-To: leypold(a)lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> > From: "Mike Allison" <mallison(a)konnections.com>
> > Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:05:01 -0600
> > Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
> >
> > I think I understand what Michael is saying. Or at least it means something
> > to me.
> >
> > I don't have a lot vested here, nor have I always followed the issues with
> > PUPS and now TUHS.
> >
> > Certainly a big part of this was running AT&T UNIX systems on these
> > machines. And, TUHS might only ever be about UNIX as UNIX (R).
>
> Well, the demarcation lines are not wuite clearly drawn. Only
> yesterday my eyes fell on a paragraph in Peter Salus Book: 4.xBSD
> brought ... improvments ... also a port to the Intel 386/486
> Architecture by Bill Jolitz. Well, 386BSD became FreeBSD and it's
> offspring.
For those trying to keep track of the exact Unix history graph,
it should be noted that the above history isn't quite right.
Jolitz' original 386 port was partially done for CSRG and partially
done for what became BSDI. A somewhat infamous falling-out during
Usenix resulted in Jolitz *redoing* his 386 port and releasing it
as 386BSD shortly after BSDI released BSD/386.
BSD/386 0.0 was released, then 0.1. Jolitz kept saying things
about "0.2" but it began to become clear to most people that it
wouldn't be released soon, if ever. A semi-official "patchkit"
sprung up, and soon most people were running 386BSD 0.1 plus
patchkit X.
Meanwhile, Adam Glass and Chris Demetriou and, soon, a small
number of others, started work on what became NetBSD, a centrally
managed free software project that sought to bring some CSRG-like
focus to the 386BSD chaos. An early snapshot of this made its
way to the patchkit folks, who declined for various reasons to
participate. NetBSD 0.8 was released, and a little bit later
the patchkit maintainers (mostly) released FreeBSD. Though there
was new work -- and would eventually be a *lot* of new work --
there was also clearly a lot of code that came not from 386BSD
or the patchkits but from that pre-0.8 NetBSD snapshot. Since
these facts are pretty well known among the principals involved
it's always been a mystery to me why Unix history graphs seem
to get the later wiggles in the xBSD line all wrong.
Thor
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>From Donald Brownlee <db(a)aptant.com> Mon Jun 19 22:37:08 2000
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My $0.02:
I once wondered whether the techniques of literary textual
criticism could be used in order to determine whether a Linux,
FreeBSD, groff -- whatever! -- is in any way derived from an
earlier work. Textual criticism considers a work by examining
several or all of the extant textual variations in an attempt
to determine what the author originally wrote; it has been
used to reconstruct the "original" texts of the ancient as
well as some modern writers, such as James Joyce. It
yields a tree of texts, in which the root is the "original,"
and the sibling children of any node are the descendants of a
common, perhaps hypothetical, text. I don't know much
else about it, except that its results may depend on alot
of knowledge and informed speculation. The textual critics
work bottom-up to arrive at an original text; I am thinking
of a top-down process, working from an original text, to show that a
work lower in a tree is derived from the original. If such a
technique were valid at all, its validity would only be improved
with the availablity of many, many "texts." The techniques might be
more useful where, for example, there were several V7 tapes that people
thought were original, but which, on inspection, turned out to be different.
In this situation, textual criticism might be used to reconstruct a "true," V7
release tape, and, in this situation, would be a bottom-up application of the techniques.
In any event, I think that it is important to preserve alot of
tapes, and to keep them separate with as much information as
possible about their pedigree. If someone ever did use such
a technique -- or any other technique -- to reconstruct a "true" release,
it is important that they document their work and not throw away the
tapes that contributed to the "true" tape, because even more
tapes may appear in the future which could lead to
the reconstruction of an even truer tape.
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Tim Shoppa writes,
> Is there a readable (meaning "not source code") history of *.*BSD
> on the McCusick CD set? Most of the comment-type entries in the
> Unix History Graphing Project for the BSD releases are pretty good,
> but not real complete.
Maybe this has already been covered sufficiently, but several of
the BSD releases came with lists of what had changed since the
previous versions. I've HTMLified the ones I have copies of at
http://pobox.com/~enf/lore/unix/bsd/
eric
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>From Cyrille Lefevre <clefevre(a)no-spam.citeweb.net> Sun Jun 18 10:23:21 2000
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Posted-Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 02:23:22 +0200 (CEST)
To: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
References: <0006171504.AA02620(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>
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From: Cyrille Lefevre <clefevre(a)no-spam.citeweb.net>
Date: 18 Jun 2000 02:23:21 +0200
In-Reply-To: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG's message of "Sat, 17 Jun 00 10:04:30 CDT"
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msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) writes:
[snip]
> If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX. And
> I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't care
> about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are, they are
> still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article.
are you sure your name isn't "Rev. Don Kool" alias oldno7(a)home.com ?
it's a joke :)
Cyrille.
--
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