I've assembled some notes from old manuals and other sources
on the formats used for on-disk file systems through the
Seventh Edition:
http://www.cita.utoronto.ca/~norman/old-unix/old-fs.html
Additional notes, comments on style, and whatnot are welcome.
(It may be sensible to send anything in the last two categories
directly to me, rather than to the whole list.)
Greg Lehey wondered about the date in
> There's a binary of dc from either 1st or 2nd Edition in the PUPS Archive:
>
> -r---wxrw- 0/0 6846 Apr 14 06:50 1973 bin/dc
1973 is indeed post-Second-Edition. But it's not the right date; just as
the permission flags were different in the early years, so was the date
representation. Here are some gleanings from old manuals that tell the
story.
The relatively recent ls or tar or whatnot that printed the line above
presumably interpreted the date as if it were in modern form: seconds since
1 Jan 1970 UTC. So the raw number stored in the i-node was probably about
105000000 decimal (30 Apr 1973 in my time zone), or about 1200 days into the
epoch.
But the file system described in the First Edition manual takes the date
as a count of clock ticks since 1 Jan 1971. The clock ticked at 60Hz,
so the date is really about 1200/60 = 20 days into the epoch; if this file
came from a 1e file system, it was written on 21 Jan 1971.
The trouble with keeping a 60Hz clock in a 32-bit number is that it takes just
a couple of years before it overflows. A band-aid had been stuck on by the time
the Third Edition manual was printed: the base date changed to 1 Jan 1972. So
maybe bin/dc was written on 21 Jan 1972 instead. There's no way to tell just
from the bits in the i-node.
The modern time format (1-second resolution) appeared in the Fourth Edition manual.
It is probably not a coincidence that the file system format changed a lot at
the same time; groups appeared, permission modes changed to approximately their
current form, directory entries changed, and so on.
The 60Hz scheme seems to have come from the PDP-7, on which it made more sense;
the -7 has 36-bit words, so a 60Hz counter lasts 16 times longer. I bet the
base date changed at least once between the original PDP-7 system and the PDP-11
as well, since 1 Jan 1971 seems too recent for the PDP-7 system.
See http://www.cita.utoronto.ca/~norman/old-unix/old-fs.html for many more such
grotty details, collected in an insomniac night with a stack of old manuals some
months ago.
Norman Wilson
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Oct 28 10:02:25 1999
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: Re: dc and date numerology
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In article by norman(a)nose.cita.utoronto.ca:
> Greg Lehey wondered about the date in
> > -r---wxrw- 0/0 6846 Apr 14 06:50 1973 bin/dc
>
> 1973 is indeed post-Second-Edition. But it's not the right date; just as
> the permission flags were different in the early years, so was the date
> representation. Here are some gleanings from old manuals that tell the
> story.
[ much omitted ]
Norman details the fact that early Unixes stored time in 60ths of a second,
i.e the normal clock tick, and as such, a 32-bit integer overflows in
around 2.5 years.
However, I think Norman is not exactly right when he said that the
tar archive was reinterpreting this 1/60 sec time in units of seconds.
Dennis Ritchie, with help from Keith Bostic and a DECtape drive, managed to
retrieve these files from an old DECtape. These old files were stored in
tap(1) archive format.
Dennis wrote a program to read in the tap(1) format archives and extract
their contents while trying to maintain the _correct_ permissions and
timestamps. Here is his email describing this:
The tapes were written in either the 'tap' or 'tp' format, which
are similar in that they have a directory of up to 192 entries at
the start with names and other information including the size and
tape address of the files. 'tp' was the later format, and was in
use by November 1973, the date of the 4th edition manual. With
`tap', the times associated with the files were recorded in pre-modern
units: sixtieths of a second, from an origin that changed. The
first three editions of the manual had BUGS sections noting that
32 bits can represent only about 2.5 years in this unit, and this
implied continuing crises as the time overflowed.
I believe that the change to use seconds for Unix time took place
along with the change to the C version of the operating system,
which occurred about the end of the summer of 1973, and also that
the change from `tap' to `tp' took place at the same time. (This
is consistent with the dates of the 3rd and 4th edition manuals).
Thus the dates recorded with the `tp' tapes probably correspond
reliably to the modification dates of the files at the time of
saving them (of course, this gives only a upper bound on their
creation, since they might have been copied or trivially touched
just before saving them).
Recovering the proper dates for the `tap' tapes is less reliable,
because there was at least one change of epoch (from 1971 to 1972)
during the period they could possibly have been produced. I believe
that the 1972 epoch is most likely the correct one for the tapes here.
In other words, Dennis had to guess the epoch when recovering these files.
He got it right with the `nsys' kernel files, because there is enough other
data lying around documenting the kernel rewrite from assembly to C, and
the inclusion of pipes into the kernel.
However, with the s2.tar archive, I think Dennis got the epoch one year out,
i.e everything should be dated a year earlier. The most obvious is that
there are so many 0405 magic a.out files in the archive, and apparently
this a.out format disappeared in the 2nd Edition.
Cheers all,
Warren
In article by Eric Fischer:
> Brian D. Chase writes,
>
> > Just a quick question. Was the `dc' command introduced with one of the
> > BSD releases or did it exist in an earlier version of Unix like the 6th or
> > 7th Edition?
>
> It appears in the First Edition manual, and according to A Quarter
> Century of Unix, it's even older than that.
> eric
There's a binary of dc from either 1st or 2nd Edition in the PUPS Archive:
-r---wxrw- 0/0 6846 Apr 14 06:50 1973 bin/dc
Warren
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>From Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com> Tue Oct 26 10:23:42 1999
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 17:23:42 -0700
From: Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com>
To: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: When did the `dc' command first appear?
In-Reply-To: <199910260007.KAA16993(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
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On Tue, 26 Oct 1999, Warren Toomey wrote:
> There's a binary of dc from either 1st or 2nd Edition in the PUPS Archive:
>
> -r---wxrw- 0/0 6846 Apr 14 06:50 1973 bin/dc
Hmmm... did the permissions on files have the same meaning back in 1973 as
they do now? Group and "other" writeable system binaries? Tsk tsk tsk.
Well I suppose just because someone has written the Unix operating system,
it doesn't necessarily mean that they're a very good Unix sysadmin.
-brian.
--- Brian Chase | bdc(a)world.std.com | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ -----
"Captain, we're experiencing a high rate of packet collisions!" -- K.
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue Oct 26 10:27:09 1999
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: Re: When did the `dc' command first appear?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.04.9910251718360.7714-100000(a)world.std.com> from Brian D Chase at "Oct 25, 1999 5:23:42 pm"
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:27:09 +1000 (EST)
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In article by Brian D Chase:
> On Tue, 26 Oct 1999, Warren Toomey wrote:
>
> > There's a binary of dc from either 1st or 2nd Edition in the PUPS Archive:
> >
> > -r---wxrw- 0/0 6846 Apr 14 06:50 1973 bin/dc
>
> Hmmm... did the permissions on files have the same meaning back in 1973 as
> they do now? Group and "other" writeable system binaries? Tsk tsk tsk.
>
> Well I suppose just because someone has written the Unix operating system,
> it doesn't necessarily mean that they're a very good Unix sysadmin.
No, the perms have got stuffed up in conversion from 1st Ed permissions
to the tar archive. 1st Edition had no groups, and only had perms
01 write for other
02 read for other
04 write for owner [ all octal values ]
10 read for owner
20 executable
40 set-UID
Warren
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>From Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> Tue Oct 26 10:33:59 1999
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Subject: Re: When did the `dc' command first appear?
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On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Brian D Chase wrote:
> > -r---wxrw- 0/0 6846 Apr 14 06:50 1973 bin/dc
>
> Hmmm... did the permissions on files have the same meaning back in 1973 as
> they do now? Group and "other" writeable system binaries? Tsk tsk tsk.
I don't believe the concept of group permissions existed then...
> Well I suppose just because someone has written the Unix operating system,
> it doesn't necessarily mean that they're a very good Unix sysadmin.
On the other hand, people actually trusted each other, because you
all worked with each other, and it was common for someone to write a
utility and stick it on the system. Hint: /usr wasn't called that for
no reason...
--
Dave Horsfall VK2KFU dave(a)geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: +61 2 9978-7422
Geac Computers P/L (FGH Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia
Just a quick question. Was the `dc' command introduced with one of the
BSD releases or did it exist in an earlier version of Unix like the 6th or
7th Edition?
-brian.
--- Brian Chase | bdc(a)world.std.com | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ -----
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Brian Chase asked:
> Just a quick question. Was the `dc' command introduced with one of the
> BSD releases or did it exist in an earlier version of Unix like the 6th or
> 7th Edition?
I see it on the System III and Version 7 systems. I don't see it in V6 distro
however.
Cheers,
-skots
--
Scott G. Akmentins-Taylor InterNet: staylor(a)mrynet.com
MRY Systems staylor(a)mrynet.lv
(Skots Gregorijs Akmentins-Teilors -- just call me "Skots")
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>From Eric Fischer <enf(a)pobox.com> Tue Oct 26 04:15:15 1999
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Subject: Re: When did the `dc' command first appear?
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Brian D. Chase writes,
> Just a quick question. Was the `dc' command introduced with one of the
> BSD releases or did it exist in an earlier version of Unix like the 6th or
> 7th Edition?
It appears in the First Edition manual, and according to A Quarter
Century of Unix, it's even older than that. "There was also a version
of dc, desk calculator, a very very early program. That was actually
the first program that ran on the PDP-11. It ran standalone before
there was an operating system." (p. 35)
eric
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>From Mark Green <mark(a)cs.ualberta.ca> Tue Oct 26 04:23:48 1999
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Subject: Re: When did the `dc' command first appear?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.04.9910250931400.1849-100000(a)world.std.com> from Brian D Chase at "Oct 25, 1999 09:34:40 am"
From: Mark Green <mark(a)cs.ualberta.ca>
To: bdc(a)world.std.com (Brian D Chase)
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> Just a quick question. Was the `dc' command introduced with one of the
> BSD releases or did it exist in an earlier version of Unix like the 6th or
> 7th Edition?
>
I think it was in 6th, but thats straining my memory a bit.
--
Dr. Mark Green mark(a)cs.ualberta.ca
Professor (780) 492-4584
Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS)
Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX)
University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada
Hi everyone,
I have already posted this program to the PUPS list back in December 1998, but
people are asking for it again, and also there are people on the Quasijarus
list and not on the PUPS list who want it, so I'm posting it again, to both
lists.
This program can read a tape on a UNIX box without the user having to know
anything about its format. This program automatically determines how many files
are on the tape, what is the record size for each, and whether there are any
oddities such as partial records. It saves each tape file into a separate disk
file and produces a log of everything found on the tape.
It's a simple C program and should compile and run on virtually any UNIX or
UNIX-like system. The original version was written by one guy I met on another
list once and then it was significantly enhanced by me. I include it below as
a uuencoded 'compress -s'ed tarball.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Computer Operation Facility
Special Agent 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY #4
International Free Computing Task Force DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693
ARPA INET: msokolov(a)meson.jpsystems.com
Enclosure: uuencoded cptape.tar.Z:
begin 644 cptape.tar.Z
M'Z'M6&U3&S<0YJOU*P0T@PW&^,`X&3NF0PBT:0G,0-(WFNF(.YU]PUER[^08
MFO#?N[LZ^>X<4MK.0#[D=B;#25KMR[-O<EZ+*QE&L5QZ0/+:[6ZGPY<X]]K=
M'?S+.[NTMN1UGG+>[>[L[NZTM[UM8FOO+O'V0QKE:)H:D7"^-+Y..]U_X'L[
M#,X?PYY'IE6V"A%XG64!#W7"_8D1$\E6&3M]\<.@-A:1:FEV?G:0??N,'1P=
M[W]W/JAMGC)FV7NU;^K`WF`UW^?VDV]J)XM]:3<K^@R='>Z_?'WXL#KNJ7^O
MLUVH_YVGR-;>[5;U_QAD"Y0G4@0I%YP6D>):29Z.M&GR22S\2`VY%/[('E.C
MB)31P)_*B4B$D3R(TBM&)T(%/-;#(5XR(^2$IC(6)M**BTL]-:#,UTG`T^@O
MF;9<`R%%,OTW>NR)$F,9\#7\;BFUUN2SD4PD4XI'*2DV,[T91,/(P.T_IU*9
M2,1<3<>7,N$Z)!82!'81.^JL@^^!]*.QB!DFAD$O9I$9\;;7:/$W(YG:6P!6
M(KD/N!FP(K(B_&F2(a)!XP$EPT.KEI\2-HJ&84I0PX4ZW(2D5PHV3!E9R1YB9!
M/M/3..`*\8KCFTP\<,T%4H..3)/Y`0=@X(OP3J8J:[4\3/08C4DD0'LREV0/
M(:2HX%+2#9&"N#C6L[0WC\)F3.98%Y^G$\!"Q'N,$;CYAL,8@^#`3(1U!0!\
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MV:@)'D>I00L!ACRM4GM*5N?)R)RFUM<SK^Q$?U@=]_3_W=UNN]#_V\BVW?6J
M_O\8M+7.^+IK#YO<UY.;8IE`X4S5E=(SY0HEEFIH1G!IB['52/GQ-,"^8()(
MMT9[A:W05R8N;\DD40M<Z4VZ194.NVPU@.*%-GCRXNU1C9X&J".D-=^#5?E>
MI/U,@U1!%#(&PX(/I=$3P^N-/I/71B;0&$<0X'78%,EPOHFLL!6IH(E_P;)^
MKA_4G;_Z[=":T-UYUJEMK?-]'_VGJ:;Y&,99O=-H\K&XMGA=QMJ_LFVD!@2@
M8C<Y/SA_1>>I:UP_[?^"S=/K_MC*&+?(<!9H!+^._3L$HV"$(BX-<LIN]MG1
MJ^-#OIX=]=D'AA9"`IO(ASBET5!!$R1_+Z=A*).+S)-W?>*<L\0:W+`!5=J>
MD1J0JB<PGP:\O7`#CR"@<.+E_$:C4;@BG;`$+NS$%\_NU$CST4>,`&P\1HCJ
M_?[<E(V-!O_`:L1\>6-DBH,2>&N4.=:LVOP`UOAG#IGUN>G"!QE0@^2IY_S/
M>9ODH^H)B-1)?67^_%E!?CQ)I)E"AGA]6D'D<7YCS(3B=`E#5KOE,H:W0%G!
M8%#0@$<.T8;=@A,RR8]U*NL(7P-.:KA=M`D>29.I#4>/$R\91SSR.C)UCY:W
M\&^20"#"^LH;<&,LDBL8M#`4H6QI*JX^:6]/?U<K31<_NI=];VRX11YS4G%K
M_Z!_N=E@4'J'&H3/&I?!5A"2093!`4`21JF&)T,@C'#M!AYH".BGZ4*XSI+(
M&*DP"1RHRW>@ZG`X=X^VW/]F<<;W^).XA$@SPQ5H'D?R!S7-B]#RA)F6;+O)
M5X[^NY8[5*69W+R`0#1U192\$#W,&@@6O9E*-]K=;G=NN>4:\$WO_@1#29]-
ML$)^>#;,ME2S?*GE-0T[A9K]-),6BG%Y4.@')2.S4/XL$@61[#E@5P'3<F9C
M4>(F"46XRR(a)[4_,H+.#N$JH0YMJG,?X?=MRO^C;+YV)CFR=&EO.PC5^V4>3M
MK23(N5"ZMUR(1,.6QUV!)^&EXO7ZME#S-N=*F=KU+9Z%]H1E-7UR^N;L</_@
M^\.7N&O=HGF&+\LZC%P??J(DP_=VD.&ZS^Q$7L=M-\3PT"_,$C?DZ`?&@)^\
M/3ZVIZ416#JQ]V@8W'4QGZ,<RR+?!&?#>&AC0)NS$8JNUWW8L\^)@A^0$'%O
MI=%`D`]/CPC>%'Y-P.^3ND\K7T#36XO7>A:]LB/N&6*##0&Z@F]X=HAI;'KN
M[K?NKC6-&G61/XN&M1:CG[GP\6/VID'CT&1HL1[9Y+(:WFG`"SY,4S'$VK</
MOPOXV9?9^8Y`@B3&O*!>L-WH+^HK^)0-;!>.$'M%\1QTS5;<*%[.*ZT\AHL"
M,V?S/E1R=R&^&)(+Z_2[?H$C(*S!E")_DY_^<?;R].3X5^B6F5<TI;,;U"[1
MGWFY@`1Z\=G_%G&EDV/CE;')RN@S3[D^E,>7?N]75%%%%554444555111155
/5%%%7Q_]#6D82E<`*```
`
end
Howdy -
> From: pups(a)mrynet.com (PUPS mailing list)
>
> Has anyone successfully booted either the System III
> (...Distributions/usdl/SysIII/) or Ultrix (...Distritutions/dec/Ultrix*)
> tape images? I don't have a real PDP-11 any more, however both the
I don't know what the problem with Ultrix is but I suspect
your trouble with System-III is similar to what I wasted a couple
days on eons ago
Spent a fruitless couple days trying to get Sys-III going on a 11/44
only to have it dawn on me that Sys-III didn't have *any* UMR support
except for the DH-11 - thus an 11/70 with MASSBUS devices was the
only thing Sys-III would run on.
As far as I know no effort was put into Sys-III to deal with 22
bit machines that didn't have a MASSBUS (a la 11/70). PERHAPS
that is what is biting you? Feels likely. I know that no effort
was put in to supporting UMRs on 22bit systems such as the 11/44.
The Supnik and Begemot emulators offer up a ~kdj-11 (11/53, 73, ...)
and not an 11/70 so it could be that Sys-III is trying to do
something 11/70'ish that KDJ-11 based systems don't offer.
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
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From: "P.BASKER" <basker(a)protocol.ece.iisc.ernet.in>
Reply-To: "P.BASKER" <basker(a)protocol.ece.iisc.ernet.in>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: assembler?
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Hi ,
Im interested in a PDP-11 assembler that has the MACRO-11 syntax,
I got a book, "Introduction to Computer Systems using the PDP-11 and
Pascal" by McEwans, Thought it would be nice to have the assembler to
check out. I hope the assembler is a load and go assembler cum simulator.
I want to check out some PDP-11 assembly on my linux machine.
Does anyone remember a program called "apout" I think that might work for
cross development (learning).
Bye
P.Basker
Research Program Asst, ECE Dept IISc, India
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Oct 21 14:02:36 1999
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Subject: Re: assembler?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.991021082828.24006A-100000(a)protocol.ece.iisc.ernet.in> from "P.BASKER" at "Oct 21, 1999 8:34: 9 am"
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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 14:02:36 +1000 (EST)
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In article by P.BASKER:
> Hi ,
> Im interested in a PDP-11 assembler that has the MACRO-11 syntax,
> I got a book, "Introduction to Computer Systems using the PDP-11 and
> Pascal" by McEwans, Thought it would be nice to have the assembler to
> check out. I hope the assembler is a load and go assembler cum simulator.
> I want to check out some PDP-11 assembly on my linux machine.
>
> Does anyone remember a program called "apout" I think that might work for
> cross development (learning).
> Bye
Yes, I wrote Apout. It runs user-mode programs from V5, V6, V7, 2.9BSD
and 2.11BSD. So if you could find an assembler for any of these systems
which met your requirements, and produced .o files which could be linked
using the normal Unix linker, you'd be okay.
However, I haven't heard of a Unix assembler with MACRO-11 syntax, and
Apout only runs PDP-11 Unix binaries. So you probably would be better
off with a full emulator running a DEC OS with MACRO-11.
Cheers,
Warren
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>From Wilko Bulte <wilko(a)yedi.iaf.nl> Thu Oct 21 09:01:53 1999
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From: Wilko Bulte <wilko(a)yedi.iaf.nl>
Message-Id: <199910202301.BAA44603(a)yedi.iaf.nl>
Subject: Re: booting archived Sys III and Ultrix 3.x images
In-Reply-To: <199910202028.NAA49448(a)mrynet.com> from PUPS mailing list at "Oct 20, 1999 1:28:36 pm"
To: pups(a)mrynet.com (PUPS mailing list)
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 01:01:53 +0200 (CEST)
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As PUPS mailing list wrote ...
> Has anyone successfully booted either the System III
> (...Distributions/usdl/SysIII/) or Ultrix (...Distritutions/dec/Ultrix*)
> tape images? I don't have a real PDP-11 any more, however both the
Ultrix-11 V3.1 works just fine on my 11/83. I supplied the binary images
to PUPS from the .5" reel tape ;-) So, yes it can work. My PDP is now
running 2.11BSD btw.
--
| / o / / _ Arnhem, The Netherlands - Powered by FreeBSD -
|/|/ / / /( (_) Bulte WWW : http://www.tcja.nlhttp://www.freebsd.org
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Has anyone successfully booted either the System III
(...Distributions/usdl/SysIII/) or Ultrix (...Distritutions/dec/Ultrix*)
tape images? I don't have a real PDP-11 any more, however both the
Begemot P11 and the Supnik emulators produce the following on a
generated boot disk:
#0=unixhptm
ka6 = 1535
aps = 141774
pc = 1476 ps = 30010
trap type 0
ka6 = 1535
aps = 141666
pc = 113444 ps = 30300
trap type 0
panic: trap
The Ultrix images both fail to actually boot from tape, as they
quit after reading the first boot block. Thus I am unable get as
far as being able to generate a disk image for booting.
I'm somewhat confident that my tape image booting and system generation
procedures used with the Supnik emulator are working properly, since I
successfully generate disk systems from both the V7 (Bostic) and
the 2.11BSD boot-tape images.
Any info and interest of others gleefully appreciated :)
-skots
--
Scott G. Akmentins-Taylor InterNet: staylor(a)mrynet.com
MRY Systems staylor(a)mrynet.lv
(Skots Gregorijs Akmentins-Teilors -- just call me "Skots")
----- Labak miris neka sarkans -----
Hi.
I have been given a Bull DSP 2/300 system. The machine is running B.O.S.
version 02.00.12. The machine boots and runs fine and I cal login as Root
and look around the system. The problem I have is that the B.O.S. operating
system is a Unix look-a-like and I can find no-one who actually knows
anything about the box. Most Unix commands work but, being a VMS guy, I
can't run the machine like my Digital MV 2's. Does anyone know anything
about these machines? I particularly want to have a bash at programming the
machine. It appears to have C (This should be fun. I've not touched C for 12
years!)
Also. I have two Digital Micro Vax 2's. The both have hardware problems in
that a) One machine has a system disk which will not come up to speed and b)
The other has a corrupted system_primitives.exe on VMS 5.5-H and so I can't
run either of them! Anyone know where I can get spares which are pre-loaded?
I really would appreciate any help or advice/ pointers etc that anyone can
give.
Rusel Broadway
Senior Systems Analyst
DDI: 01206-25-5745
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>From James Lothian <simul8(a)simul8.demon.co.uk> Sun Oct 17 05:11:03 1999
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To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: vtserver
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Hmm.. I seem to remember, from when I was thinking about rolling my own
11 OS a few years ago, that the /34 differs from most of the other
mid-range
11s in automatically restoring the CPU registers on a page fault. I
think I
picked this up from the differences table in the /04, /34 & /60 CPU
handbook.
(This was unfortunately no use at all to me, as I've got a /40 not a
/34.)
Of course, that was a while ago and I might be wrong.
James
"Steven M. Schultz" wrote:
>
> Hi -
>
> > From: Wilko Bulte <wilko(a)yedi.iaf.nl>
>
> I will be doing some more research on this when I get home from
> work tonight.
>
> > I once had Ultrix-11 3.1 running on a dual RK05 11/34. What I'd call a
> > very minimal system ;-) But it ran
>
> That is because DEC put the extra effort into supporting non-split I/D
> machines. The "stock" V7 really wanted a 11/70. In fact there was a
> chapter in the back of one of the manuals/books detailing what it took
> to get V7 running on an 11/40 (it was a non-trivial project).
>
> Several things conspire against V7 and later on 11/34 (or 35, 40, 60,
> etc). The two most notable ones are the limited address space,
> everything (drivers, data structures, general kernel code) must fit
> in 56kb instead of 120kb - (8kb reserved for the I/O page) and lack
> of instruction restart on MMU faults.
>
> I'll take a look at the V7 layout later but my memory is that it
> wanted an 11/70.
>
> Steven Schultz
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sun Oct 17 05:42:14 1999
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Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 12:42:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199910161942.MAA18843(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: vtserver
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Hi -
> From: James Lothian <simul8(a)simul8.demon.co.uk>
>
> Hmm.. I seem to remember, from when I was thinking about rolling my own
> 11 OS a few years ago, that the /34 differs from most of the other
> mid-range 11s in automatically restoring the CPU registers on a page fault. I
It's not the automatically restoring that is the problem - the /34, /40
(/60, etc) lack the MMU registers that record by how much the cpu
registers have incremented/decremented at the time an instruction has
faulted. SSR1 and SSR2 located at 0177574 and 0177576 respectively.
From the module which handles the instruction restart (mch_backup.s):
* 11/40 version of backup, for use with no SSR1 and SSR2. Actually SSR1
* usually exists for all processors except the '34 and '40 but always
* reads as zero on those without separate I&D ...
What is a dozen lines of code if those registers exist turns into
over 300 lines and even then there is no guarantee (fortunately the
C compiler does not generate the sequences that can not be handled)
it will work.
What's instruction restart used for? The most common case is growing
the stack. The stack for a process starts out small and then kernel
will automatically extend it downwards IF an instruction faults when
accessing the stack area:
sub $N,sp
mov $xxx, XX(sp)
mov -(r4), X(sp)
for dealing with local variables in a function. The other case
is when calling a function:
mov (r0)+, -(sp)
mov $xxx, -(sp)
jsr pc, function
If the reference to (sp) is made and the instruction faults the
kernel will determine if the current stack needs to be extended. It
will then restart the faulted instruction - but to do that it needs
to know what other registers ('r0', 'r4', etc...) might have been
already changed so that it can back out those changes before
restarting the instruction.
In the case of the 11/44, 70, 73, etc there are MMU registers that
will record the fact that "R0" or "r4" or whatever was changed by
2 or not. On the /34 and /40 that capability does not exist and
the kernel can not _always_ guarantee things will work. MOST of the
time it will but...
Interestingly enough there is a difference between the KDJ-11 (11/73)
family and the other 11s which have the SSR1, and 2. From the
bug report and fix for 2.11BSD (update #150):
"The problem is that the KDJ-11 processes the double word store
of the 'movfi' differently than the 11/44 or 11/70. On other
systems (such as the 11/44) the first word is stored successfully
at 0175000 then the program faults when trying to access 0174776
but SP is left at 0174776 with SSR1 (memory management
status register 1) indicating that 'sp' was decremented by 4. The
kernel adjusts 'sp', grows the stack and restarts the instruction.
The 'movfi' then completes successfully.
On a KDJ-11 cpu the story is different. The fault is generated
as expected BUT 'SP' IS STILL 0175002! The kernel sees that 'sp'
is still within the "valid stack region" and DOES NOT grow the
stack at all. SSR1 indicates that no registers were modified
so the kernel does no adjustment of 'sp'. The instruction is
NOT restarted and a SIGSEGV signal is sent to the program.
The problem appears to be only when doing FP instructions, fixed point
operations do not experience any difficulty. The instruction
"cmp -(sp),-(sp)" for example is handled correctly."
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sun Oct 17 06:07:04 1999
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Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 13:07:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199910162007.NAA19063(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: vtserver
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> From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
> > To: Kirk Davis <kbd(a)ndx.net>
> > Do you know of anyone that has used it on a /34? I've punched in the
> > bootstrap and ran it. It loads the boot file from my Linux system.
> > It appears to call it but it halts somewhere in the 70000-70040 region.
> > Nothing comes up on the console. Looks like the memory is over written
> > with the same values over and over again in this area. Any thoughts?
> >
> Sorry for the delay Kirk. It could be that the V7 bootstrap expects
> split I/D, or a different I/O mapping then what's provided on the /34.
>
> I'll punt this to the PUPS mailing list. I have a suspicion that
> you won't be able to install V7, but you should be able to install V6
> or 2.9BSD instead.
I _think_ I know what the problem is...
While the /34 (and /40, etc) can run a stripped down V7 (the necessary
mch.s code exists for example) the kernels that come with the
distribution are split I&D kernels. /hptmunix, etc are all split I/D
executables. Thus you'll be able to toggle in the bootstrap and
get /boot loaded but then fault when loading and/or trying to execute
the kernel.
As I recall the usual way to get Unix on to a /23, 34,etc was to
have a 11/70 around to do the build on, then stage/create the media
(usually an RL02 or similar) on the 70 and sneakernet the pack over
to the /34.
At least that is how it was done when we shoehorned V7 into an 11/23.
Of course we "cheated" in that we had a fellow around who made the
necessary changes to the assembler/compiler/linker to handle kernel
overlays (preceeded the use of them in 2BSD by several years). Thus
we could run a larger kernel than a pure/stock V7. It was an
"interesting" experience running V7 on an 11/23 (maxed out with 248kb
of memory which was fairly expensive at the time). There was just
enough memory left after the kernel was loaded for a couple user
processes. Thus as the '#' prompt you would run "ls" the shell ('sh')
would get swapped out, the 'ls' would run, and then 'sh' would get
swapped back in. Uh, slowed things down just a _little_ bit :-)
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
Mahlzeit
As Warren Toomey wrote ...
> Sorry for the delay Kirk. It could be that the V7 bootstrap expects
> split I/D, or a different I/O mapping then what's provided on the /34.
I'm 99% sure, that it's V7 which I have running (for lower values
of running, because one drive is dead and the power supply needs
to be replaced) on my 11/34A with 128kB RAM and two RL01. I think
I wanted to install V6, but installed V7 because of the RL01 drivers.
I stripped V7 down, so I only needed one RL01 disk pack (I have only
two.) and transfered the disk image via kermit.
I want to install 2.11BSD on my M70 with 512kB RAM (No, more RAM is
to expensive here. 1MB for over US$500.) and a 120MB ST506-type disk,
but had not much time. I want to avoid the way of the disk image,
because I have no BSD installed for the emulator and don't know,
if the transfere of slices of the disk image would be successfull.
(The RT-11 only handles 32MB "disks".) I think the best way would
be to boot from a 2.11BSD floppy and install it via serial port.
(TU-58 emu? Are there 1.2MB 2.11BSD floppies somewhere?)
Mahlzeit
endergone Zwiebeltuete
--
insanity inside
