January 1999 - TUHS - www.tuhs.org

by norman＠nose.cita.utoronto.ca

I've assembled some notes from old manuals and other sources on the formats used for on-disk file systems through the Seventh Edition: http://www.cita.utoronto.ca/~norman/old-unix/old-fs.html Additional notes, comments on style, and whatnot are welcome. (It may be sensible to send anything in the last two categories directly to me, rather than to the whole list.)

2 years, 11 months

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Re: low-end vaxen and unix

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Alan F R Bain <A.F.R.Bain(a)dpmms.cam.ac.uk> wrote: > I think this is being grossly unfair and irrelevant; the information > provided was that NetBSD was a viable alternative which is correct. > All my modern machines run NetBSD and the only non supported hardware > is a 9 track magtape drive on a sun -- I don't consider that > unreasonable as it's rather an unusal model. How is this relevant to NetBSD/vax? Remember, architectures other than VAX do not exist as far as I am concerned, so when I say "NetBSD", I always always always mean NetBSD/vax. > I don't think PUPS > is the place for OS favouritism arguments, so please desist. It is necessary, however, to protect the innocent novice users from falling into the claws of that predator. > To add a constructive comment, there's been a lot written about the > history and tree of development of early unix up to the SYSV > and BSD split occured, but I'm pretty unsure about the rest. > It seems that BSD2 and BSD4 developed pretty much in parallel, > the former targetting the PDP and the latter the VAX; Warren's > graphing data provide an interesting view of what happened, > but I'm unsure how closely related the two developments were > (especially in time of releases, introduction of new features > etc.). I'd be grateful if someone more knowledgable could fill > in some of the details. First of all, this is absolutely irrelevant to the question of binary compatibility between 4.2BSD, 4.3BSD, and Ultrix. Second, the development didn't "split" into PDP-11 and VAX. Instead, the MAINSTREAM UNIX system _CONVERTED_ from PDP-11 to VAX, and did so at AT&T, before the torch was turned over to UC Berkeley. 2BSD was not mainstream UNIX. In fact, it was not UNIX at all, since it didn't contain a kernel, only a patchkit of userland enhancements. Now if you are talking about 2.xBSD, as opposed to the real 2BSD, it is a different story altogether, and it isn't really Berkeley Software DIstribution, since it wasn't developed at Berkeley. 2.xBSD is an unauthorized, unapproved, and unblessed side branch, and as far as I'm concerned, it doesn't exist. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA18377 for pups-liszt; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 11:50:52 +1100 (EST) >From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Sat Jan 30 10:50:36 1999 Received: from mail1.panix.com (mail1.panix.com [166.84.0.212]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA18372 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 11:50:42 +1100 (EST) Received: from panix7.panix.com (root(a)panix7.nyc.access.net [166.84.0.232]) by mail1.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixM1.3) with ESMTP id TAA07147 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 19:50:36 -0500 (EST) Received: (from tls@localhost) by panix7.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id TAA08049 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 19:50:36 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 19:50:36 -0500 From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: low-end vaxen and unix Message-ID: <19990129195036.A7942(a)rek.tjls.com> Reply-To: tls(a)rek.tjls.com References: <199901292249.RAA04815(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199901292249.RAA04815(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Fri, Jan 29, 1999 at 05:49:42PM -0500 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, Jan 29, 1999 at 05:49:42PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote: > > > As far as I recall, stock 4.3 won't run on the MV2000, 3100, etc. > > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus will eventually. For now if you want to run the > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus userland, run it atop of an Ultrix kernel. Will work > beautifully. > > > There is a reasonable alternative. NetBSD runs on the 2000, many 3100 models, > > and even the 4000/60, which Ultrix never ran on. > > A warning for naive list readers. NetBSD's definition of "runs on" means that > you have to part with all of your mass storage devices and use the bare CPU as > diskless peering-at toy. That's nonsense. As I stated in the message to which you were purportedly responding, NetBSD supports both SCSI and MFM (RD-series) disks on the machines in question. It also supports MSCP disks on most systems to which they can be attached, and TMSCP tapes; and, for the truly masochistic, last time I tried the RL02 on my '750 worked, too. Let me ask you once again: why do you become so combative when others simply express technical opinions (or, in this case, state facts) with which you happen to disagree? Are you actively _trying_ to disrupt this list just so that nobody can mention the word "NetBSD" on it for fear of being flamed? Thor Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA18413 for pups-liszt; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 12:07:48 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Sat Jan 30 11:09:36 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA18408 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 12:07:40 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA09808 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 12:09:36 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901300109.MAA09808(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: low-end vaxen and unix In-Reply-To: <19990129195036.A7942(a)rek.tjls.com> from Thor Lancelot Simon at "Jan 29, 1999 7:50:36 pm" To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 12:09:36 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Thor Lancelot Simon: > On Fri, Jan 29, 1999 at 05:49:42PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: >> A warning for naive list readers. NetBSD's definition of "runs on" means that >>you have to part with all of your mass storage devices and use the bare CPU as > > diskless peering-at toy. > > That's nonsense. As I stated in the message to which you were purportedly > responding, NetBSD supports both SCSI and MFM (RD-series) disks on the machines > in question. It also supports MSCP disks on most systems to which they > can be attached, and TMSCP tapes; and, for the truly masochistic, last > time I tried the RL02 on my '750 worked, too. > > Let me ask you once again: why do you become so combative when others simply > express technical opinions (or, in this case, state facts) with which you > happen to disagree? > > Are you actively _trying_ to disrupt this list just so that nobody can > mention the word "NetBSD" on it for fear of being flamed? > Thor Ok, this is a warning to anybody who posts a reply to the thread above in the mailing list. If you say something which is religious, zealous or inflammatory, then I will issue a warning to you in the list. 2nd time I issue a warning, I will start to moderate your postings. This whole issue is like Linux vs. FreeBSD. The BEST answer to the question: which is the best? is to get the user to try both out, and they can make their own choice. As several people have explained, the choice is a combination of technical issues AND aesthetics. And we all have different tastes. So respect each others tastes, and don't hassle them. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA18468 for pups-liszt; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 12:19:40 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Sat Jan 30 11:21:28 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA18463 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 12:19:32 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA09827 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 12:21:28 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901300121.MAA09827(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Is 2.xBSD `approved'? In-Reply-To: <199901300010.TAA04883(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Jan 29, 1999 7:10:23 pm" To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 12:21:28 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Michael Sokolov: > Now if you are talking about 2.xBSD, as > opposed to the real 2BSD, it is a different story altogether, and it isn't > really Berkeley Software DIstribution, since it wasn't developed at Berkeley. >2.xBSD is an unauthorized, unapproved, and unblessed side branch, and as far as > I'm concerned, it doesn't exist. I hate to say this, but 2.xBSD, where x was 8, 9 and 10, was developed with the involvement of several people at the CSRG, e.g Keith Bostic, Mike Karels, Kirk McKusick. I'm sure Steven Schultz could give me some more names. Although 2.xBSD is definitely not the branch which got the most attention, I wouldn't say it was unauthorised, unapproved nor unblessed. Actually, given that the CSRG is now disbanded, it is fair to say that both 2.11BSD and 4.3-Quasijarus are in exactly the same boat: side branches of the main BSD development, maintained by individuals who were not members of the original CSRG. Now, let us return to the more important issue of helping each other out, rather than getting at each other. All UNIXes are worthy topics, and do not deserve ridicule. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id CAA20270 for pups-liszt; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 02:39:33 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 3 months

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Re: low-end vaxen and unix

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> wrote: > On a KA410 (VAXstation 2000 etc.) the MFM controller and the NCR 5380 > both do DMA to a shared 16Kb private memory buffer. You then have to > pull your data out into the regular VAXen memory. I believe the Lance > chip (ethernet) is the only DMA to main memory capable device. Correct. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA18090 for pups-liszt; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 09:54:52 +1100 (EST) >From Alan F R Bain <A.F.R.Bain(a)dpmms.cam.ac.uk> Sat Jan 30 08:54:33 1999 Received: from moose.dpmms.cam.ac.uk (exim(a)moose.dpmms.cam.ac.uk [131.111.24.35]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA18085 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 09:54:42 +1100 (EST) Received: from localhost.cam.ac.uk ([127.0.0.1] helo=moose.dpmms.cam.ac.uk ident=afrb2) by moose.dpmms.cam.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.03 #1) id 106Mo6-0001es-00 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 22:54:34 +0000 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: low-end vaxen and unix In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:49:42 EST." <199901292249.RAA04815(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 22:54:33 +0000 From: Alan F R Bain <A.F.R.Bain(a)dpmms.cam.ac.uk> Message-Id: <E106Mo6-0001es-00(a)moose.dpmms.cam.ac.uk> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Michael Sokolov wrote: >A warning for naive list readers. NetBSD's definition of "runs on" means that >you have to part with all of your mass storage devices and use the bare CPU as >diskless peering-at toy. I think this is being grossly unfair and irrelevant; the information provided was that NetBSD was a viable alternative which is correct. All my modern machines run NetBSD and the only non supported hardware is a 9 track magtape drive on a sun -- I don't consider that unreasonable as it's rather an unusal model. I don't think PUPS is the place for OS favouritism arguments, so please desist. >4.3BSD-Quasijarus will eventually run on nearly every VAX ever made? When will >this happen? To speed it up, subscribe to the Quasijarus mailing list and join >our team. > >> It will also run 4.3BSD >> binaries -- in fact, in my experience, more of them than Ultrix will. I >> ran Ultrix on a 3100 on my desk when I worked at DEC, and it was even odds >> whether binaries I'd built on 4.3 would work correctly -- remember, Ultrix >> branched from 4.2, not 4.3. > >The fact that Ultrix originally started from 4.2 is absolutely irrelevant, >since when 4.3BSD came out, Ultrix fully caught up with it. As the principal >maintainer and software architect of 4.3BSD-*, I know this better than anyone >else, and I state authoritatively that the complete 4.3BSD-Quasijarus userland I don't feel that there is any need to be silly and pretentious here; techinical arguments may be of interest, but `I'm right and I know I am' arguments are just childish. To add a constructive comment, there's been a lot written about the history and tree of development of early unix up to the SYSV and BSD split occured, but I'm pretty unsure about the rest. It seems that BSD2 and BSD4 developed pretty much in parallel, the former targetting the PDP and the latter the VAX; Warren's graphing data provide an interesting view of what happened, but I'm unsure how closely related the two developments were (especially in time of releases, introduction of new features etc.). I'd be grateful if someone more knowledgable could fill in some of the details. Alan Bain Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA18255 for pups-liszt; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 10:56:43 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 3 months

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Re: low-end vaxen and unix

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote: > As far as I recall, stock 4.3 won't run on the MV2000, 3100, etc. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus will eventually. For now if you want to run the 4.3BSD-Quasijarus userland, run it atop of an Ultrix kernel. Will work beautifully. > There is a reasonable alternative. NetBSD runs on the 2000, many 3100 models, > and even the 4000/60, which Ultrix never ran on. A warning for naive list readers. NetBSD's definition of "runs on" means that you have to part with all of your mass storage devices and use the bare CPU as diskless peering-at toy. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus will eventually run on nearly every VAX ever made? When will this happen? To speed it up, subscribe to the Quasijarus mailing list and join our team. > It will also run 4.3BSD > binaries -- in fact, in my experience, more of them than Ultrix will. I > ran Ultrix on a 3100 on my desk when I worked at DEC, and it was even odds > whether binaries I'd built on 4.3 would work correctly -- remember, Ultrix > branched from 4.2, not 4.3. The fact that Ultrix originally started from 4.2 is absolutely irrelevant, since when 4.3BSD came out, Ultrix fully caught up with it. As the principal maintainer and software architect of 4.3BSD-*, I know this better than anyone else, and I state authoritatively that the complete 4.3BSD-Quasijarus userland will run perfectly atop of an Ultrix kernel. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA18025 for pups-liszt; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 09:38:19 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 3 months

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Re: low-end vaxen and unix

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Pat Barron <pat(a)transarc.com> wrote: > As I recall, you can attach an external SCSI hard disk to a MicroVAX 2000, > and Ultrix will be able to use it, but you can't boot from it. The > Centronics expansion port really is a SCSI port, even though it was never > billed as such (and the TZK50 tape drive really is a SCSI drive, and you > can use it on other systems that have SCSI - not sure why you'd want to, > though....). Correct, except that since Ultrix is binary-only chainware, you would have to disassemble and patch some of its kernel .o files in order to force is to recognize SCSI disks. It uses the CPU code (a byte-sized number constructed from the SID and SID extension longwords) to index into a table of pointers to routines for different CPUs, and the routines that get called when the CPU is KA410 (VS/MV 2000) don't bother to probe for SCSI disks. This means that any SCSI disks you may have attached will be silently ignored, even though the drivers are present and they would work if they weren't artificially blocked. > 4.3BSD (and its variants) for the VAX has no SCSI support at all, so > you're out of luck if you want to use SCSI disks on a MicroVAX under 4.3. Adding BabyVAX support (with MFM, SCSI, LANCE, and everything) to 4.3BSD-Quasijarus is in my plans. For more information, subscribe to the Quasijarus mailing list. If you want to have something running now, you can either run Ultrix and learn to live in binary-only chains, or you can construct a system consisting of the Ultrix kernel and the 4.3BSD-Quasijarus userland. There is enough syscall compatibility between 4.3BSD and Ultrix to make this possible. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id IAA17536 for pups-liszt; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 08:42:17 +1100 (EST) >From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Sat Jan 30 07:41:53 1999 Received: from mail2.panix.com (mail2.panix.com [166.84.0.213]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA17525 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 08:42:03 +1100 (EST) Received: from panix7.panix.com (root(a)panix7.nyc.access.net [166.84.0.232]) by mail2.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixM1.3) with ESMTP id QAA01213 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:41:53 -0500 (EST) Received: (from tls@localhost) by panix7.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id QAA03883 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:41:53 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:41:53 -0500 From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: low-end vaxen and unix Message-ID: <19990129164152.A3563(a)rek.tjls.com> Reply-To: tls(a)rek.tjls.com References: <Pine.SGI.3.95.990129133718.11015C-100000(a)world.std.com> <Pine.GSO.3.96.990129150954.25336E-100000(a)smithfield.transarc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.990129150954.25336E-100000(a)smithfield.transarc.com>; from Pat Barron on Fri, Jan 29, 1999 at 03:28:52PM -0500 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, Jan 29, 1999 at 03:28:52PM -0500, Pat Barron wrote: > As I recall, you can attach an external SCSI hard disk to a MicroVAX 2000, > and Ultrix will be able to use it, but you can't boot from it. The > Centronics expansion port really is a SCSI port, even though it was never > billed as such (and the TZK50 tape drive really is a SCSI drive, and you > can use it on other systems that have SCSI - not sure why you'd want to, > though....). > > 4.3BSD (and its variants) for the VAX has no SCSI support at all, so > you're out of luck if you want to use SCSI disks on a MicroVAX under 4.3. As far as I recall, stock 4.3 won't run on the MV2000, 3100, etc. The people who made it do so used the relevant source bits from Ultrix, I think, so even with a 32V source license you're out of luck. There is a reasonable alternative. NetBSD runs on the 2000, many 3100 models, and even the 4000/60, which Ultrix never ran on. It will also run 4.3BSD binaries -- in fact, in my experience, more of them than Ultrix will. I ran Ultrix on a 3100 on my desk when I worked at DEC, and it was even odds whether binaries I'd built on 4.3 would work correctly -- remember, Ultrix branched from 4.2, not 4.3. SCSI on the 2000 is supposed to work pretty well, SCSI on some 3100 models less so; the LANCE ethernet on the older boxes and the SGEC on the 4000/60 work; a few models support graphical console on a QDSS or equivalent. For the boxes where you're stuck with small RD series disks, shared libraries may help a bit. Hope this helps. THor Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA17760 for pups-liszt; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 09:08:05 +1100 (EST) >From Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> Sat Jan 30 08:07:36 1999 Received: from math.uwaterloo.ca (kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.140.144]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA17754 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 09:07:55 +1100 (EST) Received: (from kcwellsc@localhost) by math.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA18899; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:07:36 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> Message-Id: <199901292207.RAA18899(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> Subject: Re: low-end vaxen and unix To: allisonp(a)world.std.com Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:07:36 -0500 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.3.95.990129160049.19225A-100000(a)world.std.com> from "allisonp(a)world.std.com" at Jan 29, 99 04:06:28 pm Organization: University of Waterloo, Math Faculty Computing Facility (Alumni) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On a KA410 (VAXstation 2000 etc.) the MFM controller and the NCR 5380 both do DMA to a shared 16Kb private memory buffer. You then have to pull your data out into the regular VAXen memory. I believe the Lance chip (ethernet) is the only DMA to main memory capable device. -- Ken > [...] There are however issues in that the hard disk > interface and the SCSI chip use the same DMA channel and it would cause > some performance degrdation. [...] > > Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA17998 for pups-liszt; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 09:36:06 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 3 months

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low-end vaxen and unix

by Mirian Crzig Lennox

How well can the so-called "desktop vaxen" run 4.3 BSD? I'm thinking about systems like the MicroVAX 2000, etc. I'd like to set up a system to run some sort of 4.3 system (maybe Michael Sokolov's Quasijarus distribution) and I've noticed the occasional desktop vax show up in places like eBay. Is it possible to avoid the hernia and use one of these "2nd floor apartment-friendly" computers? --Mirian Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id FAA16845 for pups-liszt; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 05:45:58 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 3 months

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Re: low-end vaxen and unix

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Mirian Crzig Lennox <mirian(a)xensei.com> wrote: > How well can the so-called "desktop vaxen" run 4.3 BSD? I'm thinking > about systems like the MicroVAX 2000, etc. I'd like to set up a > system to run some sort of 4.3 system (maybe Michael Sokolov's > Quasijarus distribution) and I've noticed the occasional desktop vax > show up in places like eBay. Is it possible to avoid the hernia and > use one of these "2nd floor apartment-friendly" computers? Subscribe to the Quasijarus mailing list using standard Majordomo commands and post your question there. I'll answer it. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/

26 years, 3 months

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Snake Oil (was Re: 4.4BSD)

by Mike Jenkins

On Tue, 26 Jan 1999 "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> wrote: > I maintain the opposite. VMS _was_ (past tense) the driver of > VAXEN but that was due to Ken "UNIX is Snake Oil" Olsen. Since DEC I got a whole different perspective on that Snake Oil thing after reading "A Quarter Century of UNIX" by Peter Salus. According to Armando Stettner (DEC Ultrix Architect) Ken Olsen meant, "Much the way people were peddling snake oil a century ago, now every vendor is hyping Unix as a cure for everything". He was only making a analogy but the statement was "taken out of context". Anyway, the book has been enjoyable. Mike P.S. Where is Armando now? Is he still doing Unix stuff? Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA05079 for pups-liszt; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:11:08 +1100 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Thu Jan 28 09:10:55 1999 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA05073 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:10:59 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA15602; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:40:56 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id JAA04001; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:40:55 +1030 (CST) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:40:55 +1030 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Cc: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: UNIX robustness Message-ID: <19990128094055.E66239(a)freebie.lemis.com> References: <199901270512.VAA15671(a)moe.2bsd.com> <36AF136E.8FB4C233(a)halcyon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <36AF136E.8FB4C233(a)halcyon.com>; from David C. Jenner on Wed, Jan 27, 1999 at 05:23:58AM -0800 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Wednesday, 27 January 1999 at 5:23:58 -0800, David C. Jenner wrote: > "Steven M. Schultz" wrote: >> >> At least it's a different thread... ;-) >> >> I had a UNIX system in my house that ran (and was working hard >> the whole time) for over 2 years before pity was taken on it >> and a beefier replacement system installed. The original system >> was a 386/33 serving as a rather busy secondary nameserver and was >> never touched/rebooted/powercycled for 2+ years. As time went on the >> load increased and it became apparent the system was overloaded (and >> paging excessively) so a P5/90 with more memory was installed. A >> couple months after that the disk died ;-) > > I had (still have) a PDP-11/23+ that ran (still runs) 2.9BSD (with an > honest-to-goodness AT&T binary license) that was my UUCP link to the > net from 1989-1993. At one stretch, it ran almost two years before a > power failure finally got it. > > It was unusual to go that long without a power failure, so the limiting > factor was clearly the power and not the hardware or software. The > system has a watchdog timer, so when there was a problem the system would > usually automatically reboot, unless there was a serious hardware problem. > Reboots were fairly rare and usually a power problem, so it would be hard > for me to pinpoint the cause of non-power-instigated reboots. I think you'd have to consider a reboot to be a failure. Steveen could say better than I, but I'd expect 2.9BSD to have told you why it died. 2.11BSD certainly does. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA05599 for pups-liszt; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:10:03 +1100 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu Jan 28 10:07:22 1999 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA05586 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:09:54 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id QAA27431; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:07:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:07:22 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199901280007.QAA27431(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: djenner(a)halcyon.com, grog(a)lemis.com Subject: Re: UNIX robustness Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> > > I think you'd have to consider a reboot to be a failure. Steveen > could say better than I, but I'd expect 2.9BSD to have told you why it > died. 2.11BSD certainly does. Well, it tries its darndest to do so. If the system gets its knickers sufficiently twisted I've seen it hang part way thru printing the panic message. 'course then there are the self inflicted crashes where an errant driver scribbles all over memory, in which case you may not get a meaningful indication of what went wrong ;) Steven Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA05647 for pups-liszt; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:12:21 +1100 (EST) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Thu Jan 28 10:11:56 1999 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA05642 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:12:12 +1100 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA03086; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 01:11:58 +0100 Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 01:11:56 +0100 (MET) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: emanuel stiebler <emu(a)ecubics.com> cc: Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.eu.org>, PDP11 UNIX Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: 4.4BSD In-Reply-To: <19990127174150.AAA5105@p2350> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.990128011036.2335D-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > > What's that? When I want to edit text I want an editor, not an vi-itor > > or an emacsitor, those aren't even words! ED is the standard editor. :) > > SURE !!! > I think most people simply forget, that emacs doesn't work so well on a > line printer console ;-)) I have only one things to say to you guys; TECO. (And besides, EMACS is just a bunch of macros for TECO, GNU-EMACS don't even count... ;-) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA07028 for pups-liszt; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 14:25:08 +1100 (EST) >From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Thu Jan 28 13:24:31 1999 Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (mgate.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA07018 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 14:24:59 +1100 (EST) Received: from halcyon.com (66-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net [206.63.251.66]) by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA21948 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 19:24:35 -0800 Message-ID: <36AFD86F.A25AFE2A(a)halcyon.com> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 19:24:31 -0800 From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Reply-To: djenner(a)halcyon.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: UNIX robustness References: <199901270512.VAA15671(a)moe.2bsd.com> <36AF136E.8FB4C233(a)halcyon.com> <19990128094055.E66239(a)freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Yes, and it was almost 2 years between reboots. Otherwise, they were rather rare, and I can't remember why. I have all the console logs around somewhere under a pile, and if/when I uncover them, I'll look through them to see what happened. Maybe I'll suddenly report it here in 6 months--after my next reboot, err, cleanup. Dave Greg Lehey wrote: > > > I think you'd have to consider a reboot to be a failure. Steveen > could say better than I, but I'd expect 2.9BSD to have told you why it > died. 2.11BSD certainly does. > > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers > finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id TAA09604 for pups-liszt; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 19:05:42 +1100 (EST) >From Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com> Thu Jan 28 18:05:26 1999 Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA09599 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 19:05:32 +1100 (EST) Received: from world.std.com [world-f.std.com [199.172.62.5]] by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id DAA28920; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 03:05:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA14700; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:05:27 -0800 Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:05:26 -0800 (PDT) From: Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD In-Reply-To: <199901260840.DAA03265(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Message-Id: <Pine.SGI.3.95.990127235939.2520C-100000(a)world.std.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote: > > I frankly consider this to be silly, somewhat presumptious, and, for myself, > > at least, a waste of time. But if it's something _you_ want to do, I > > encourage you to do it, I suppose. > > You may believe whatever you want, but I will only remark that several very > prominent VAX hardware gurus (some of them on this list) support my work very > eagerly. Whatever you or the NetBSD gang may believe, "Death to the murderous NetBSD grandparents and the atrocities they've commited against the true Unix." -- Bee S. D'argic -brian. --- Brian "JARAI" Chase | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ | VAXZilla LIVES!!! Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id EAA11549 for pups-liszt; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 04:50:45 +1100 (EST) >From "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net> Fri Jan 29 03:54:42 1999 Received: from coffee.corliss.net (erin(a)coffee.gta-tech.com.121.7.12.in-addr.arpa [12.7.121.245] (may be forged)) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA11544 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 04:50:37 +1100 (EST) Received: from localhost (erin@localhost) by coffee.corliss.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA21996 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:54:42 -0800 Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:54:42 -0800 (PST) From: "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.3.95.990127235939.2520C-100000(a)world.std.com> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990128095053.21935A-100000(a)coffee.corliss.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, Brian D Chase wrote: > "Death to the murderous NetBSD grandparents and the atrocities they've > commited against the true Unix." -- Bee S. D'argic Yeah, what kind of sadistic, malicious bastards would create a *free* version of unix, then port it to nearly every platform imaginable!!?!? What could have been going through their twisted minds? ---------------------------------------------------------- "...and an eternity, my friend, is a long f*cking time..."

26 years, 3 months

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UNIX robustness

by norman＠nose.cita.utoronto.ca

Allison Parent is probably correct that Ultrix doesn't have as impressive a record of robustness as VMS, but there are certainly application-specific cases where the system did pretty well. The collection of MicroVAX II parts I have at home mostly used to be the University of Toronto's backbone IP routers, which ran an early Ultrix (I forget if it was 2.0 or 3.0). Evidently most of these systems just ran and ran and ran, stopping only for hardware failures. (Probably mostly broken RD53 disks--most of the disks that came in the parts collection were broken in one way or another.) Although I am not a first-hand witness, the claim is that some of these systems had uptimes as long as five years when they were finally decommissioned in 1990 or 1991. Anyone else got any my-UNIX-ran-longer-than-yours stories? Norman Wilson Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA00311 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:38:09 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jan 27 14:38:23 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA00306 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:38:03 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA01836; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:38:23 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901270438.PAA01836(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: UNIX robustness In-Reply-To: <199901270434.PAA00279(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> from "norman(a)nose.cita.utoronto.ca" at "Jan 26, 1999 11:32:49 pm" To: norman(a)nose.cita.utoronto.ca Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:38:23 +1100 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by norman(a)nose.cita.utoronto.ca: > Anyone else got any my-UNIX-ran-longer-than-yours stories? > Norman Wilson Only <200 days here for a PC-based system, usually brought down by power failure. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA00561 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:13:17 +1100 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Jan 27 15:12:57 1999 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA00553 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:13:07 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id VAA15671 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:12:57 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:12:57 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199901270512.VAA15671(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: UNIX robustness Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk At least it's a different thread... ;-) I had a UNIX system in my house that ran (and was working hard the whole time) for over 2 years before pity was taken on it and a beefier replacement system installed. The original system was a 386/33 serving as a rather busy secondary nameserver and was never touched/rebooted/powercycled for 2+ years. As time went on the load increased and it became apparent the system was overloaded (and paging excessively) so a P5/90 with more memory was installed. A couple months after that the disk died ;-) Steven Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA00604 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:15:26 +1100 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Jan 27 15:15:08 1999 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA00597 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:15:17 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id VAA15701 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:15:08 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:15:08 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199901270515.VAA15701(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Addendum to Unix robustness Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - I've personally seen/run a PDP-11/44 under 2.11BSD for 1 year without reboooting. Then the power went out and spoiled the streak. Started over and was a couple months into the new uptime and the RA81 died. Sigh. Steven Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id AAA02469 for pups-liszt; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:26:08 +1100 (EST) >From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Wed Jan 27 23:23:58 1999 Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (mgate.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA02464 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:25:59 +1100 (EST) Received: from halcyon.com (66-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net [206.63.251.66]) by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA19391 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 05:25:37 -0800 Message-ID: <36AF136E.8FB4C233(a)halcyon.com> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 05:23:58 -0800 From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Reply-To: djenner(a)halcyon.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: UNIX robustness References: <199901270512.VAA15671(a)moe.2bsd.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk I had (still have) a PDP-11/23+ that ran (still runs) 2.9BSD (with an honest-to-goodness AT&T binary license) that was my UUCP link to the net from 1989-1993. At one stretch, it ran almost two years before a power failure finally got it. It was unusual to go that long without a power failure, so the limiting factor was clearly the power and not the hardware or software. The system has a watchdog timer, so when there was a problem the system would usually automatically reboot, unless there was a serious hardware problem. Reboots were fairly rare and usually a power problem, so it would be hard for me to pinpoint the cause of non-power-instigated reboots. Dave "Steven M. Schultz" wrote: > > At least it's a different thread... ;-) > > I had a UNIX system in my house that ran (and was working hard > the whole time) for over 2 years before pity was taken on it > and a beefier replacement system installed. The original system > was a 386/33 serving as a rather busy secondary nameserver and was > never touched/rebooted/powercycled for 2+ years. As time went on the > load increased and it became apparent the system was overloaded (and > paging excessively) so a P5/90 with more memory was installed. A > couple months after that the disk died ;-) > > Steven Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id CAA02732 for pups-liszt; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 02:15:08 +1100 (EST) >From Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> Thu Jan 28 01:14:30 1999 Received: from math.uwaterloo.ca (kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.140.144]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA02724 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 02:14:58 +1100 (EST) Received: (from kcwellsc@localhost) by math.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA30920; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:14:30 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> Message-Id: <199901271514.KAA30920(a)math.uwaterloo.ca> Subject: Re: UNIX V6 Enhancements/Games To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:14:30 -0500 (EST) Cc: agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199901262238.JAA05749(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> from "Warren Toomey" at Jan 27, 99 09:38:32 am Organization: University of Waterloo, Math Faculty Computing Facility (Alumni) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Alas I don't know the precise details, but I do remember that the University of Waterloo had an explicit license (seperate from the UNIX one) just for the *real* troff code. When I say "real" I mean the code that drove a real typesetting device etc. (in PDP-11 assembler I think). We had a highly modified copy in use for more than a decade I think, driving successive generations of new typeset quality engines. I can check with the fellow that really knows all this history and details if someone is interested. -- Ken | In article by alejandro gonzalez: | > | > Reading the Unix Summary, I have noticed that some packages are | > distributed as Enhancements: Like TROFF, or some of the Games, and not in | > the orginial distribution | > | > The Unix System the comes with the tapes does not come with Man, Troff, | > etc.. Is any of this extra stuff in the Pups Archive? If so, Where? | > | > Alex | | All we have are the tapes as donated to us by Dennis Ritchie and Ken | Wellsch. I don't know if a copy of the enhancements still exist. However, | they may have been part of PWB UNIX, which was around at the same time as | Research UNIX. Have a look in the Distributions/usdl section for PWB UNIX. | | Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id EAA03183 for pups-liszt; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 04:23:01 +1100 (EST) >From Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.eu.org> Thu Jan 28 03:21:11 1999 Received: from spektr.eu.org (spektr.ludvika.se [194.18.168.68]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA03175 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 04:22:52 +1100 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by spektr.eu.org (8.9.2/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA25728 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 18:21:11 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 18:21:11 +0100 (CET) From: Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.eu.org> To: PDP11 UNIX Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.05.9901271816460.25417-100000(a)spektr.eu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Thor Lancelot Simon < tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote: >...or vi versus Emacs. What's that? When I want to edit text I want an editor, not an vi-itor or an emacsitor, those aren't even words! ED is the standard editor. :) -- Jorgen Pehrson (HP 9000/380, VAX2000, DECstation 5000/200 (NetBSD 1.3)) jp(a)spektr.eu.org (PDP11/73, PDP11/83, PDP11/83 (2.11BSD)), Intergraph 200 spektr.eu.org/~jp/ MicroVAX 3100 (NetBSD 1.3), VAXstation 4000/90 (VAX/VMS) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id EAA03270 for pups-liszt; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 04:42:12 +1100 (EST) >From "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> Thu Jan 28 03:41:15 1999 Received: from biz1.mailsrvcs.net (biz1.gte.net [207.115.153.50]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA03265 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 04:42:04 +1100 (EST) Received: from p2350 ([208.254.191.195]) by biz1.mailsrvcs.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-40549L5000S0) with ESMTP id AAA5105; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:41:58 -0600 From: "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> To: "Jorgen Pehrson" <jp(a)spektr.eu.org>, "PDP11 UNIX Preservation Society" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:41:15 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19990127174150.AAA5105@p2350> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi Jorgen, ---------- > From: Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.eu.org> > To: PDP11 UNIX Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> > Subject: Re: 4.4BSD > Date: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 10:21 AM > What's that? When I want to edit text I want an editor, not an vi-itor > or an emacsitor, those aren't even words! ED is the standard editor. :) SURE !!! I think most people simply forget, that emacs doesn't work so well on a line printer console ;-)) cheers, emanuel

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Re: 4.4BSD

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Eventually I will support almost every VAX ever made, just like Ultrix. The <is no reason why it can't be done. If Ultrix, a close 4.3BSD derivative, co <do this, so can 4.3BSD-* itself. Then it might almst be as common as VMS... not likely. Ultrix never drive every VAX nor was it as robust as VMS. It will still not be a 24x7x365 OS of any standing until proven so by use, not assertion. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA00284 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:34:32 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 3 months

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Re: 4.4BSD

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<What I was saying that if someone, no matter who, tries to use the governme <oppression mechanism (formally known as intellectual property law) to obstr The rom code for the KA650 is not public domain nor was it ever relased with public domain trimmings to anyone. Calling it opression or anything else is a transparent attempt to evade the law. <supposed to cooperate, not fight. Using legal quirks to obstruct the work o <non-profit software developer for ideological reasons would probably be <universally agreed to be unethical. When applied to "freely copyable code" no problem. Copyrighted firmware is not that. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA20395 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:43:36 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 3 months

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Re: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Let's look at things from the practical viewpoint, OK? One of my goals is t <establish a repository containing the latest available microcode revision f That is not the problem. You are putting up the ROM contents off the cpu card and that is unreleased copyrighted code. <Come on, removing the KA650 from the list of CPUs for which I make microcod <updates available won't change anything. I will still have to carry a ragba <DEC-copyrighted bits and pieces in order to make my OS project successful. Then I expect you will get propper permissions or paperwork showing that they were grandfatherd. In either case by not doing that your potentially liable( and involing others) in a copyright infingment suit. Copyright is a legal issue. <UNIX will require a copy of VMB.EXE in order to boot from MSCP disks and TM Not an issue and that is not the rom image. <The thing of it is, all this hardware is orphaned. If you have a DEBNA and <to upgrade it to DEBNI to run UNIX, or if you have KA650 V1.1 and want to <upgrade it to V1.2 to run UNIX, if you call COMPAQ and ask them for a firmw <upgrade they'll laugh at you. If DEC still existed and supported this stuff <would be a different story, but with all this hardware orphaned, the poor V <UNIX users have no one to turn to for microcode upgrades and troubleshootin <support except the VAX UNIX maintainer, i.e., me. Not true. While Compaq/DEC may or may not supply products it is still their ownership. Further I'd bet that through field service spares parts are still quite available. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA20389 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:43:29 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 3 months

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the contents of this mailing list

by norman＠nose.cita.utoronto.ca

My two cents' worth on the latest fuss: It seems premature to discuss splitting the list unless there is a concrete proposal for how to split it, but I cannot think of a split that would solve the present problem. The real trouble right now is one or two people who cannot resist waving their antlers around in public. We could eliminate them by declaring UNIX on anything but the PDP11 (and perhaps the PDP-7) to be out of bounds, but unless we also refuse to talk about anything post-V7, that is an artificial cutoff; there's a fair bit of shared code between 2.11BSD and 4BSD (wasn't that the point of 2.11 et al?). There's also a genuine link between PDP11 and VAX hardware (nearly all the pre-VAXBI peripheral devices for a start). More important than any of the above, I'd like to ask everyone to try to keep their remarks civil and reasonably to-the-point (difficult though both of those often are in e-mail), and to take conversations that are marginal to the main purpose of the list to direct e-mail rather than broadcasting everything to everyone no matter how peripheral. (Which is not to say that discussion of peripherals aren't relevant.) For example, I had a handful of comments both philosophical and technical on Michael Sokolov's recent postings; they didn't strike me as of general interest, so I mailed them directly to him. To close with a reference nearer to ancient UNIX, I think it was Dennis who once suggested that netnews would have had a much higher signal-to-noise ratio if there had been no `followup' command, so it was easier to send e-mail directly to the original poster than to make a fool of one's self in public. Norman Wilson Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA20323 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:37:09 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jan 27 13:38:45 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA20318 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:37:02 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA01601; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:38:45 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901270338.OAA01601(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Split of PUPS mail list?? In-Reply-To: <19990127035054.L496(a)krdl.org.sg> from "Joerg B. Micheel" at "Jan 27, 1999 3:50:54 am" To: joerg(a)krdl.org.sg (Joerg B. Micheel) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:38:45 +1100 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Joerg B. Micheel: > > Please email me your suggestions, desires etc w.r.t this issue. I will > > post a summary sometime next week, and we can then decide what to do. > > You don't mention a specific scheme to do the split. No. I'll take suggestions, then summarise the suggestions and post them next week. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA20369 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:43:03 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 3 months

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Re: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> wrote: > I would definitely recommend that the firmware image is removed from the > PUPS Archive until it can be legally distributed to people without a DEC > software license. Presently there are no EPROM images on minnie. However, I'm far from the idea of denying my users the firmware upgrades they need just because of some stupid copyrights held by a company that doesn't even exist any more, so if you have an actual need for one of the EPROM images I have, I can E-mail it to you compressed and uuencoded. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA19626 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:36:07 +1100 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Jan 27 10:35:41 1999 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA19621 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:35:59 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id QAA13940 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:35:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:35:41 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199901270035.QAA13940(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > Johnny Billquist > Hmmm. This could well degenerate into a squabble. ;-) Yeah, it could. So enough said and (hopefully) it stops now. > While I run Unix on the VAXen I have, I sure wish someone had implemented > the MSCP BBR stuff for instance. Not event Ultrix does it properly, MSCP BBR is _hard_ and not documented well (or not documented at all). Come to think of it MSCP in general is difficult and not documented very well (Chris Torek's comments in the 'ra.c' driver are fun to read;)). Best solution I've found is to use a SCSI<->MSCP adaptor and let the adaptor do the BBR <g> Steven Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA19853 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:38:36 +1100 (EST) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Wed Jan 27 11:38:19 1999 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (trailing-edge.wdn.com [198.232.144.27]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA19848 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.cs.adfa.EDU.AU>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:38:25 +1100 (EST) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.cs.adfa.EDU.AU; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:38:19 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:38:19 -0500 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Message-Id: <990126203819.2020009f(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > While I run Unix on the VAXen I have, I sure wish someone had implemented > the MSCP BBR stuff for instance. Not event Ultrix does it properly, If you look at the commented sources for the DEC OS's, you'll see that it took them several minor version releases in order to get bad block replacement working passably. And there still remain situations that aren't handled well even in the best implementations. Tim. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA19979 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:11:21 +1100 (EST) >From "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> Wed Jan 27 05:12:31 1999 Received: from krdl.org.sg (rodin.krdl.org.sg [137.132.252.27]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA19973 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:11:08 +1100 (EST) Received: from mailhost.krdl.org.sg (mailbox.krdl.org.sg [137.132.247.30]) by krdl.org.sg (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA06573; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:16:51 +0800 (SGT) Received: from negara.nus.sg (negara [137.132.248.175]) by mailhost.krdl.org.sg (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA23639; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:10:57 +0800 (SGT) Received: (from joerg@localhost) by negara.nus.sg (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) id DAA00603; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:12:31 +0800 (SGT) Message-ID: <19990127031231.H496(a)krdl.org.sg> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:12:31 +0800 From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> To: Michael Sokolov <mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD References: <199901261944.OAA03412(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: <199901261944.OAA03412(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 02:44:12PM -0500 Organization: Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Singapore Project: SingAREN, the Singapore Advanced Research and Education Network Operating-System: ... drained by Solaris 7 Intel Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 02:44:12PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > That's exactly what I'm arguing! This is not a fight, this is research OS > development. I'm not stealing BSD, I'm contributing to it. Volunteering to do > the job of the principal maintainer of 4.3BSD-*, which no one has done since > 1988, is one of the greatest contributions one can make. Great. I'm glad we have you around to follow this mission. Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 8742582 Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Rm 3-65, C041 Fax: +65 7744990 21 Heng Mui Keng Terrace Pager: +65 96016020 Singapore 119613 Plan: Troubleshooting ATM Republic of Singapore Networks and Applications Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA20001 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:15:56 +1100 (EST) >From "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> Wed Jan 27 05:16:53 1999 Received: from krdl.org.sg (rodin.krdl.org.sg [137.132.252.27]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA19994 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:15:24 +1100 (EST) Received: from mailhost.krdl.org.sg (mailbox.krdl.org.sg [137.132.247.30]) by krdl.org.sg (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA06726; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:21:13 +0800 (SGT) Received: from negara.nus.sg (negara [137.132.248.175]) by mailhost.krdl.org.sg (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA24145; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:15:18 +0800 (SGT) Received: (from joerg@localhost) by negara.nus.sg (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) id DAA00610; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:16:53 +0800 (SGT) Message-ID: <19990127031653.I496(a)krdl.org.sg> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:16:53 +0800 From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> To: Michael Sokolov <mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD References: <199901261944.OAA03415(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: <199901261944.OAA03415(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 02:44:34PM -0500 Organization: Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Singapore Project: SingAREN, the Singapore Advanced Research and Education Network Operating-System: ... drained by Solaris 7 Intel Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 02:44:34PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > What I was saying that if someone, no matter who, tries to use the government's > oppression mechanism (formally known as intellectual property law) to obstruct > my work, I would defend myself by any means I have, and i would have the full > moral right to call that person or organization a twit. This is the non-profit > software development world we are talking about, and in this world people are > supposed to cooperate, not fight. Using legal quirks to obstruct the work of a > non-profit software developer for ideological reasons would probably be > universally agreed to be unethical. As I tried to explain earlier, nobody is actually doing that, not even attempting. BSDI lives in the commercial world and they have been protecting their work against other *commercial* use. On the *research* side, those same BSDI team members (again citing Mike Karels, Kirk McKusick and possibly others) keep *actively* supporting *BSD. There is no clash as such. People are *very* reasonable, especially when it comes to open technology, they have been in that business for long and appreciate it's value and impact. Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 8742582 Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Rm 3-65, C041 Fax: +65 7744990 21 Heng Mui Keng Terrace Pager: +65 96016020 Singapore 119613 Plan: Troubleshooting ATM Republic of Singapore Networks and Applications Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA20076 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:37:07 +1100 (EST) >From "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> Wed Jan 27 05:38:21 1999 Received: from krdl.org.sg (rodin.krdl.org.sg [137.132.252.27]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA20066 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:36:54 +1100 (EST) Received: from mailhost.krdl.org.sg (mailbox.krdl.org.sg [137.132.247.30]) by krdl.org.sg (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA07433; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:42:41 +0800 (SGT) Received: from negara.nus.sg (negara [137.132.248.175]) by mailhost.krdl.org.sg (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA26506; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:36:47 +0800 (SGT) Received: (from joerg@localhost) by negara.nus.sg (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) id DAA00622; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:38:21 +0800 (SGT) Message-ID: <19990127033821.K496(a)krdl.org.sg> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:38:21 +0800 From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> To: Michael Sokolov <mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image References: <199901270041.TAA03508(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: <199901270041.TAA03508(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 07:41:17PM -0500 Organization: Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Singapore Project: SingAREN, the Singapore Advanced Research and Education Network Operating-System: ... drained by Solaris 7 Intel Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 07:41:17PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Presently there are no EPROM images on minnie. However, I'm far from the idea > of denying my users the firmware upgrades they need just because of some stupid > copyrights held by a company that doesn't even exist any more, so if you have > an actual need for one of the EPROM images I have, I can E-mail it to you > compressed and uuencoded. With a different tone and manner people at Compaq/DEC might actually be quite willing to support archival of their work (which is protected by law) for the purpose of tracking history. It never hurts to show curtesy and ask politely. If I were you, especially as the maintainer of CSRG work, I'd certainly give it a try ... Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 8742582 Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Rm 3-65, C041 Fax: +65 7744990 21 Heng Mui Keng Terrace Pager: +65 96016020 Singapore 119613 Plan: Troubleshooting ATM Republic of Singapore Networks and Applications Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA20167 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:49:24 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jan 27 12:51:07 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA20162 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:49:17 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA01515 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:51:07 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901270251.NAA01515(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: PUPS Mail list: rules of behaviour To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:51:07 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk All, I hate to do this, however I think we could do with just a few rules of behaviour for the PUPS mail list. Here we go... 1) The mailing list is for discussion on various topic areas related to UNIX history, its development, care and feeding of all UNIX systems and their hardware, and announcements of useful information related to the above. It is generally inclusive, rather than exclusive. However.... 2) There should be little or no discussion of major systems' development, including announcements of new versions. Instead, systems developers should create a communications channel to target their own audience. For example, 2.11BSD has the newsgroup comp.bugs.2bsd. To that end, I have just created a mailing list for Quasijarus, quasijarus(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au, and associated Majordomo structures. Quasijarus users should join this list so that developments and announcements about this system can reach them. In other words, interested parties are expected to monitor these mailing lists or newsgroups, in order to follow development and announcements. 3) Discussion is to be civil and not religious, where possible. There have been a large number of UNIX systems and flavours. There is no single `best' system. 4) Offensive postings: if a person's mail postings offends someone, then they should email me, the list maintainer. If I get a number of complaints, I will ask the original author to not be so offensive. If I need to warn a person twice, then I will begin to censor their list postings. I will repost this message if/when it becomes necessary. I am still collection suggestions with regards to the charter of the list and if we need to make separate lists etc. The rules above, though, apply to the list as it is now. Thanks all, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA20302 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:30:14 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 3 months

1
0
0 0

Re: 4.4BSD

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> wrote: > > Eventually I will support almost every VAX ever made, just like Ultrix. There ^^^^^^ > > is no reason why it can't be done. If Ultrix, a close 4.3BSD derivative, could > > do this, so can 4.3BSD-* itself. > > FYI. Ultrix don't support every VAX ever made. > Only VMS does. See the line of carets up there. BTW, if someone with the hardware were willing to be a guinea pig, I would readily add support for KA660 and KA670, making 4.3BSD-Quasijarus support even MORE hardware than Ultrix in this particular area. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA19598 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:27:38 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 3 months

1
0
0 0

Re: 4.4BSD

by Johnny Billquist

On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote: Sigh. I guess I shouldn't get into a new squabble with/over Solokov, but here I go again... > On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 03:40:19AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > > Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote: > > > > You may believe whatever you want, but I will only remark that several very > > prominent VAX hardware gurus (some of them on this list) support my work very > > eagerly. Whatever you or the NetBSD gang may believe, my True UNIX is the only > > UNIX system that is really a VAX OS and can truly drive a VAX the way it's > > supposed to be driven. I'd argue that VMS is the true driver of VAXen, and nothing else... Unix is kindof a side track altogether. No matter what religious beliefs you have. > When it "drives" most VAXen, I encourage you to let me know. It won't even > run on most of the VAXen I have, and I don't expect that to change any > time soon. But if your definition of "the way it's supposed to be driven" > is "not at all", I guess I have no quibble with your logic, at least. I > want support for the hardware I own, and features like mmap() and NFS. > Between those, I think you'll find quite a bit of the bloat you're complaining > about. I also want some user-convenience features like dynamic libraries and > a compiler that can actually optimize code worth a damn, even if it's GCC, > which I think you'd probably find even more objectionable. So any system > you produce is not likely to be useful to me. Let's agree to disagree > about this. No, Solokov isn't likely to please you. > > > Despite the great temptation to do so, neither the NetBSD nor the FreeBSD > > > project have taken up the mantle of CSRG [...] > > > > Excellent! This gives me the luxury of being free from competitors. > > Look, if you're going to mixmaster my text like this, I'm not about to > respond to yours any more and give you more material to play with. As > I said, I have an interest in old Unices mostly for historical reasons; > you appear to have an interest because you want to branch new development > from them -- fine, that's as may be, who cares? There's certainly room > for both points of view, and I fail to see why you're being so combative. Solokov has in the past been more than just combative. I'd say he's more or less on the hate list of a lot of people on the NetBSD/vax list for raving all the time. He finally ceased posting there, to most everyones relief. Unfortunately he started posting here instead. Couldn't we do a real split of the pdp-11-stuff, and all other historical Unix stuff. I'm really not interested in historical Unix. I'm first and foremost interested in pdp-11, that's why I got into this list. Unix is a secondary issue to me, and historical Unix isn't my playfield. The other option would be to get out of this list totally, but some people actually need help with pdp-11 stuff, and there I can contribute. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id HAA17274 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 07:52:20 +1100 (EST) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Wed Jan 27 06:52:00 1999 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA17269 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 07:52:10 +1100 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA25319; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:52:01 +0100 Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:52:00 +0100 (MET) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: Michael Sokolov <mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD In-Reply-To: <199901261945.OAA03418(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.990126215000.23686D-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Eventually I will support almost every VAX ever made, just like Ultrix. There > is no reason why it can't be done. If Ultrix, a close 4.3BSD derivative, could > do this, so can 4.3BSD-* itself. FYI. Ultrix don't support every VAX ever made. Only VMS does. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA17935 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:24:31 +1100 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Jan 27 08:23:31 1999 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA17927 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:24:22 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id OAA13198 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:23:31 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:23:31 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199901262223.OAA13198(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi Johnny - > From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> > Sigh. I guess I shouldn't get into a new squabble with/over Solokov, but > here I go again... Netbsd's mailing list was rendered unreadable for quite a while ;-( > I'd argue that VMS is the true driver of VAXen, and nothing else... > Unix is kindof a side track altogether. No matter what religious beliefs I maintain the opposite. VMS _was_ (past tense) the driver of VAXEN but that was due to Ken "UNIX is Snake Oil" Olsen. Since DEC is defunct and VMS is effectively no longer, I'd argue that UNIX is the winner/driver. Are Vaxen even being made any longer? The ALPHA is what is driving Compaq/dec now. > > I want support for the hardware I own, and features like mmap() and NFS. > > Between those, I think you'll find quite a bit of the bloat you're ... Amen! Adding NFS to the kernel about doubles the size of the kernel. > Unfortunately he started posting here instead. ;-( > Couldn't we do a real split of the pdp-11-stuff, and all other historical > Unix stuff. I'm really not interested in historical Unix. I'm first and > foremost interested in pdp-11, that's why I got into this list. Unix is a Hear hear! PUPS started out with the emphasis on PDP-11s based UNIX although other OSs would be welcome (the RT11 and RSTS folks have their own forums though). I doubt anyone would be upset if someone posted an RSX11D question to PUPS but I think many of us are getting tired of a proposed new/wonderous "4.4BSD". Steven Schultz Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA17955 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:24:58 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jan 27 08:26:24 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA17948 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:24:51 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA05633; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:26:24 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901262226.JAA05633(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image In-Reply-To: <199901260125.UAA03071(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Jan 25, 1999 8:25:12 pm" To: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:26:24 +1100 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Michael Sokolov: > allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent) wrote: > > > Get that out of there fast, it's copyrighted firmware! > > The PUPS archive already contains some PDP-11 boot/diag/etc. odds and ends. > Why not have VAX ones too? Just some clarification here. There is a section in the PUPS Archive which is not readily accesible to normal S/Key users of the archive. This is mainly used by those volunteers who are helping to distribute the archive, and for other sundry stuff. If a volunteer puts something in there which is copyright, then they must understand that the legal responsibility is theirs and theirs alone. The same thing applies to the main archive. I would definitely recommend that the firmware image is removed from the PUPS Archive until it can be legally distributed to people without a DEC software license. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA18138 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:34:55 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jan 27 08:36:27 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA18130 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:34:48 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA05730 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:36:27 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901262236.JAA05730(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Why not 4.4BSD? To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:36:27 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Just my $0.02 worth. I haven't moved the majority of 4BSD stuff into the PUPS Archive mainly to give Kirk a chance to sell his 4 CD set containing all the CSRG releases. He's done a lot of hard work a) writing BSD code over the years and b) finding, transcribing from tape, and organising the various releases onto the CD set. I am always prepared to distribute sub-parts of the 4CD set to people if they want it, and I'd be very happy to put into the PUPS Archive the most popular 4BSD releases. In fact, this has been done, to some extent. I would resist the urge to distribute the entire CSRG collection either via media or through the on-line archive, at least until Kirk has been recompensed for his work. However, Emanuel let me know exactly which 4BSD release you'd like to see, and it will be added! Cheers, Warren P.S Also, a plea for unity w.r.t this mailing list, or at the very least a sense of restraint and _understanding_ of other people's viewpoints. Thanks. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA18201 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:37:09 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jan 27 08:38:32 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA18193 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:37:01 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA05749; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:38:32 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901262238.JAA05749(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: UNIX V6 Enhancements/Games In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9901260824400.19662-100000(a)dizzy.cs.fiu.edu> from alejandro gonzalez at "Jan 26, 1999 8:27:15 am" To: agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu (alejandro gonzalez) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:38:32 +1100 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by alejandro gonzalez: > > Reading the Unix Summary, I have noticed that some packages are > distributed as Enhancements: Like TROFF, or some of the Games, and not in > the orginial distribution > > The Unix System the comes with the tapes does not come with Man, Troff, > etc.. Is any of this extra stuff in the Pups Archive? If so, Where? > > Alex All we have are the tapes as donated to us by Dennis Ritchie and Ken Wellsch. I don't know if a copy of the enhancements still exist. However, they may have been part of PWB UNIX, which was around at the same time as Research UNIX. Have a look in the Distributions/usdl section for PWB UNIX. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA18317 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:42:50 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jan 27 08:44:19 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA18307 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:42:41 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA05790 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:44:19 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901262244.JAA05790(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Split of PUPS mail list?? To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:44:19 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk All, Both Steven Schultz and Johnny Billquist have suggested a split of the existing PUPS mailing list into a number of mailing lists. As the maintainer of the list, I am not in a position to force a decision either way: instead, I think it should be driven by the list members. Please email me your suggestions, desires etc w.r.t this issue. I will post a summary sometime next week, and we can then decide what to do. Many thanks, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA18975 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:21:28 +1100 (EST) >From "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> Wed Jan 27 09:20:17 1999 Received: from biz1.mailsrvcs.net (biz1.gte.net [207.115.153.50]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA18970 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:21:20 +1100 (EST) Received: from p2350 ([208.254.186.71]) by biz1.mailsrvcs.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-40549L5000S0) with ESMTP id AAA10955; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:21:15 -0600 From: "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> To: <wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au>, "Unix Heritage Society" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Why not 4.4BSD? Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:20:17 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19990126232114.AAA10955@p2350> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi, ---------- > From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> > To: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> > Subject: Why not 4.4BSD? > Date: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 3:36 PM > I haven't moved the majority of 4BSD stuff into the PUPS Archive mainly to > give Kirk a chance to sell his 4 CD set containing all the CSRG releases. > He's done a lot of hard work a) writing BSD code over the years and > b) finding, transcribing from tape, and organising the various releases onto > the CD set. That's the explanation i waited for, and i understand that. > I would resist the urge to distribute the entire CSRG collection either > via media or through the on-line archive, at least until Kirk has been > recompensed for his work. NO problem with that. > However, Emanuel let me know exactly which 4BSD release you'd like to see, > and it will be added! Sorry, for the "noise" following my I thought "simple" question. I only wanted to know, why the 4.4 releases were not in the archive. They are part of the AU license anyway, and i thought, they are missing. > P.S Also, a plea for unity w.r.t this mailing list, or at the very least > a sense of restraint and _understanding_ of other people's viewpoints. I prefer one list, THIS one. The problems we had in the last 24 hours are my fault. Sorry for this, i should know that sometimes a "dumb" question start a flame/war about color/religions & BSD versions. Sorry about this. emanuel So a now PLEASE back to our business, enjoying our nice PDP's ;-)) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA19191 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:48:18 +1100 (EST) >From Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Wed Jan 27 09:46:16 1999 Received: from post.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA19185 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:48:09 +1100 (EST) Received: from [158.152.152.109] (helo=falstaf.demon.co.uk) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #1) id 105IDD-0002AZ-00; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:48:04 +0000 Message-ID: <Nws0nOAIPlr2EwLA(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:46:16 +0000 To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> From: Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: Split of PUPS mail list?? References: <199901262244.JAA05790(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In-Reply-To: <199901262244.JAA05790(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike (32) Version 4.01 <YSkKJATYm0AxAbv6xUlJqScVOx> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In message <199901262244.JAA05790(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>, Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> writes >All, > Both Steven Schultz and Johnny Billquist have suggested a split >of the existing PUPS mailing list into a number of mailing lists. As the >maintainer of the list, I am not in a position to force a decision either >way: instead, I think it should be driven by the list members. > >Please email me your suggestions, desires etc w.r.t this issue. I will >post a summary sometime next week, and we can then decide what to do. > >Many thanks, > > Warren FWITW I vote for a split, if only to make the filing easier. If people feel as strongly as some do about not wanting one of the lists then fine, that makes it easier. Something similar is in place at NetBSD if you want just notices, posts on one type of OS or whatever. Cheers Robin ____________________________________________________________________ Robin Birch robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk M1ASU/2E0ARJ Old computers and radios always welcome Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA19541 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:14:34 +1100 (EST) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Wed Jan 27 10:14:00 1999 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA19535 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:14:23 +1100 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA29902; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 01:14:03 +0100 Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 01:14:00 +0100 (MET) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD In-Reply-To: <199901262223.OAA13198(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.990127010122.29540B-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > Hi Johnny - Hi there, Steven. > > From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> > > I'd argue that VMS is the true driver of VAXen, and nothing else... > > Unix is kindof a side track altogether. No matter what religious beliefs > > I maintain the opposite. VMS _was_ (past tense) the driver of > VAXEN but that was due to Ken "UNIX is Snake Oil" Olsen. Since DEC > is defunct and VMS is effectively no longer, I'd argue that UNIX is > the winner/driver. Are Vaxen even being made any longer? The ALPHA > is what is driving Compaq/dec now. Hmmm. This could well degenerate into a squabble. ;-) Let's just say that VAXen are still being sold, as far as I know. VMS are still being sold. However COMPAQ sure don't push for VAXen, so I expect them to die soon. Alpha is the main target of VMS these days for sure. But there still exists VAXen that no Unix can run, leaving only VMS. And also, some stuff just isn't utilized that well under Ultrix, which means VMS is the more developed, and supported OS. While I run Unix on the VAXen I have, I sure wish someone had implemented the MSCP BBR stuff for instance. Not event Ultrix does it properly, relying on a separate, manual program for it. And let's not rack down on Ken Olsen and what he said/didn't say here. :-) > > Couldn't we do a real split of the pdp-11-stuff, and all other historical > > Unix stuff. I'm really not interested in historical Unix. I'm first and > > foremost interested in pdp-11, that's why I got into this list. Unix is a > > Hear hear! PUPS started out with the emphasis on PDP-11s based UNIX > although other OSs would be welcome (the RT11 and RSTS folks have > their own forums though). I doubt anyone would be upset if someone > posted an RSX11D question to PUPS but I think many of us are getting > tired of a proposed new/wonderous "4.4BSD". Me for one wouldn't mind, even if I think the correct forum would be info-pdp11, but then again, people usually seem happy to just find *any* forum for pdp-11 stuff. I don't mind talking about V[0-7] here, even though they are older than 2.11BSD, but really, BSD[3,4] isn't what I'm in here for. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA19584 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:26:45 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 3 months

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Re: 4.4BSD

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote: > When it "drives" most VAXen, I encourage you to let me know. It won't even > run on most of the VAXen I have, and I don't expect that to change any > time soon. Eventually I will support almost every VAX ever made, just like Ultrix. There is no reason why it can't be done. If Ultrix, a close 4.3BSD derivative, could do this, so can 4.3BSD-* itself. If you want to speed it up, tell me what hardware do you have, and maybe then we can replace this flame war with a fruitful technical discussion of its buses, devices, and registers, eventually culminating with writing of the necessary drivers. The primary difficulty with expanding hardware support is the lack of hardware. If you have the hardware and want it supported, volunteer to be a guinea pig for driver testing. I already have several ideas on how to add support for certain machines, and if someone volunteers to be a guinea pig, I will be happy to send him/her some code to try firing up. Oh, BTW, it should already be possible to run my system's userland on almost every VAX ever made by running it atop of an Ultrix kernel. Ultrix is a close 4.3BSD derivative, and its system calls are a proper superset of the 4.3BSD ones. Ultrix runs 4.3BSD binaries natively, without invoking any special "emulation" or "compatibility code", since every syscall that is native for 4.3BSD is also native for Ultrix. A system composed of an Ultrix kernel and the userland from my latest release (without recompilation!) should run even better than pure Ultrix. > But if your definition of "the way it's supposed to be driven" > is "not at all", I guess I have no quibble with your logic, at least. No, this is not my definition. > I > want support for the hardware I own This will be done if you are willing to cooperate. > and features like mmap() and NFS. Sorry about mmap(), but I definitely will implement NFS. > Between those, I think you'll find quite a bit of the bloat you're > complaining about. Hardware support expansion, NFS, and even mmap() affect the kernel only. 4.3BSD-Reno blows up the userland by a factor 2, and 4.4BSD is even worse. > You do understand that "CSRG's own convention" involved increasing the value > of the "BSD" symbol in the user namespace with each release? I just checked, and CSRG did not bump this symbol for the 4.3BSD-Tahoe release, it still says 43, just like for plain 4.3BSD. If CSRG didn't bump it for Tahoe, I don't have to bump it for Quasijarus either. > As > I said, I have an interest in old Unices mostly for historical reasons; > you appear to have an interest because you want to branch new development > from them -- fine, that's as may be, who cares? There's certainly room > for both points of view, and I fail to see why you're being so combative. I'm being combative only when others are. If someone challenges my job as the current principal maintainer of Berkeley VAX UNIX, I have to defend it, that's all. > I personally don't read the statement "If you want CSRG, here I am" quite > like that, but whatever. You might not want to say things like that in > the future if you don't want to confuse and possibly irritate a fair > number of people who have a great deal of respect for CSRG and what they > did. I respectfully disagree. I'm not taking any credit away from CSRG, but just because Marshall Kirk McKusick and his fellows no longer do this job doesn't mean that I can't do it. As I said, Kirk has practically passed the torch to me himself. > It's nice to see someone working on any Berkeley UNIX. Exactly, and let's switch from flames to something more useful so that I and other 4.3BSD-* contributors can do our jobs and prove ourselves with deeds instead of words. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/

26 years, 3 months

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Re: 4.4BSD

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote: > You do understand that the "some twit" you're talking about is, at least > by extension, Mike Karels? Why? He is not trying to tell me that I can't do my job. I have nothing against him and BSDI, and since he has never voiced any protests against my work, I'm assuming that he has nothing against it either. What I was saying that if someone, no matter who, tries to use the government's oppression mechanism (formally known as intellectual property law) to obstruct my work, I would defend myself by any means I have, and i would have the full moral right to call that person or organization a twit. This is the non-profit software development world we are talking about, and in this world people are supposed to cooperate, not fight. Using legal quirks to obstruct the work of a non-profit software developer for ideological reasons would probably be universally agreed to be unethical. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA17008 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 06:31:22 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 3 months

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Re: 4.4BSD

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Joerg B. Micheel <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> wrote: > I don't think UCB has been using this term for 15 years. 1995 - 1980 = 15 1980 is the year of the 3BSD release, the first release from CSRG that's an actual operating system kernel and not just a package of userland enhancements. If you include the latter (1BSD and 2BSD) too, it'll be more than 15 years. > That > is because research is a different world from commercial efforts. There is no > such thing as "this is BSD / not BSD" as compared to the "one true JAVA(tm)". > You cannot steal BSD, you can only contribute to it. That's exactly what I'm arguing! This is not a fight, this is research OS development. I'm not stealing BSD, I'm contributing to it. Volunteering to do the job of the principal maintainer of 4.3BSD-*, which no one has done since 1988, is one of the greatest contributions one can make. Marshall Kirk McKusick tells me that he started the same way: first a contributor, then the principal maintainer. He didn't just assume the title, he earned it. I followed the same path. I have been doing miscellaneous work in preparation for this project for the past 3 years. I became the principal maintainer and architect only when I actually started doing this job, i.e., maintaining the master SCCS tree and making architectural decisions. I have a proposal: Let's end this pointless flame war. Titles are earned, not assumed. So far the only people participating in it are the ones who have never actually tried my system on a VAX. It's funny that you guys started challenging my maintainer job only now and not when I made my first release a month ago. When I made my release, there was absolutely no dissent from anyone. Instead, I was getting direct E-mails from several people asking me how to install it on their VAXen. There is only one way to earn the high title of the principal maintainer: do a good job at it. The former CSRG folks certainly did this. If you believe that I haven't done anough for VAX BSD to earn the title of its maintainer, how about ending this flame war and letting me go back to work so that I can do my job and prove myself with deeds instead of words? > And since the core team of BSDI today > consist of people formerly involved in BSD, what problem should there be they > keep calling their work BSD ? No problem at all! All I'm saying is that despite what someone has suggested, they have no authority to bar others from doing the same. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA16993 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 06:30:54 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 3 months

1
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Re: 4.4BSD

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> wrote: > You can trademark anything that hasn't already been trademarked. But if a system has already existed under a certain name for 15 years, just because some twit suddenly decided to trademark it doesn't mean that the original author and copyright owner suddenly has to change its name. If some twit decides to trademark the name Michael Sokolov, that doesn't mean that I suddenly have to change my name. I have had this name for all my 19 years and will keep it for as long as I live. The same with BSD. UC Berkeley has been using this name for 15 years. Just because some phased BSDI twit suddenly decided to trademark it doesn't mean that Berkeley suddenly has to stop using it. True, I am not UC Berkeley, but I am working on UC Berkeley's system in full compliance with Berkeley's license terms. Since the UC Berkeley system is still called BSD, so is mine, since my system is just a newer version of the Berkeley one. My right, both legal and ethical, to call my system a newer version of BSD or Berkeley UNIX stems from the right to modify. The right to modify includes _any_ kind of development work, including the possiblity of becoming the new principal maintainer. > > BSDI has no rights whatsoever to the code copyrighted by the Regents > > of University of California. > > Of course they have. The rights are described in the Berkeley > License. I meant that they have no exclusive rights. They have no right to say what I can or cannot do with the UC Berkeley system. Once Berkeley gave me and everyone else the rights to redistribute and modify, no one can take these rights away from me. Not even UC Berkeley itself, since I didn't sign any agreements that they could terminate. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id VAA15079 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:19:41 +1100 (EST) >From "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> Tue Jan 26 13:20:46 1999 Received: from krdl.org.sg (rodin.krdl.org.sg [137.132.252.27]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA15074 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:19:22 +1100 (EST) Received: from mailhost.krdl.org.sg (mailbox.krdl.org.sg [137.132.247.30]) by krdl.org.sg (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id SAA22623; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:25:09 +0800 (SGT) Received: from negara.nus.sg (negara [137.132.248.175]) by mailhost.krdl.org.sg (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA07622; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:19:14 +0800 (SGT) Received: (from joerg@localhost) by negara.nus.sg (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) id LAA00541; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:20:46 +0800 (SGT) Message-ID: <19990126112046.D496(a)krdl.org.sg> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:20:46 +0800 From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> To: Michael Sokolov <mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD References: <199901261008.FAA03320(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: <199901261008.FAA03320(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 05:08:17AM -0500 Organization: Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Singapore Project: SingAREN, the Singapore Advanced Research and Education Network Operating-System: ... drained by Solaris 7 Intel Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 05:08:17AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > But if a system has already existed under a certain name for 15 years, just > because some twit suddenly decided to trademark it doesn't mean that the > original author and copyright owner suddenly has to change its name. If some > twit decides to trademark the name Michael Sokolov, that doesn't mean that I > suddenly have to change my name. I have had this name for all my 19 years and > will keep it for as long as I live. The same with BSD. UC Berkeley has been > using this name for 15 years. Just because some phased BSDI twit suddenly > decided to trademark it doesn't mean that Berkeley suddenly has to stop using > it. True, I am not UC Berkeley, but I am working on UC Berkeley's system in > full compliance with Berkeley's license terms. Since the UC Berkeley system is > still called BSD, so is mine, since my system is just a newer version of the > Berkeley one. My right, both legal and ethical, to call my system a newer > version of BSD or Berkeley UNIX stems from the right to modify. The right to > modify includes _any_ kind of development work, including the possiblity of > becoming the new principal maintainer. Well, not sure I should actually drop into the discussion of experts, but ... I don't think UCB has been using this term for 15 years. It was the group of people around Bill Joy, and later Kirk McKusick (many important names omitted) that had to write *something* onto the tapes shipped with the software. That is because research is a different world from commercial efforts. There is no such thing as "this is BSD / not BSD" as compared to the "one true JAVA(tm)". You cannot steal BSD, you can only contribute to it. BSDI is residing in the commercial world. I'm unsure about the motivations for the trademark (I lost contact with BSDI around the time they renamed the system BS/DOS), but I'm pretty sure that Rob Kolstad and colleagues meant it to protect the name against another commercial use as pure "BSD". It is not meant against any freeware *BSD (reading FreeBSD sources you might figure that some of the BSDI team members, namely Mike Karels and Kirk McKusick, have actually made contributions to the freeware effort). And since the core team of BSDI today consist of people formerly involved in BSD, what problem should there be they keep calling their work BSD ? They have done an excellent job and everybody (including Sun and recently other SVR4 folks) acknowledges their contributions. Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 8742582 Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Rm 3-65, C041 Fax: +65 7744990 21 Heng Mui Keng Terrace Pager: +65 96016020 Singapore 119613 Plan: Troubleshooting ATM Republic of Singapore Networks and Applications Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id VAA15148 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:42:22 +1100 (EST) >From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Tue Jan 26 20:42:06 1999 Received: from mail2.panix.com (mail2.panix.com [166.84.0.213]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA15143 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:42:13 +1100 (EST) Received: from panix7.panix.com (root(a)panix7.nyc.access.net [166.84.0.232]) by mail2.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixM1.3) with ESMTP id FAA00791 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:42:07 -0500 (EST) Received: (from tls@localhost) by panix7.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id FAA14725 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:42:07 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:42:06 -0500 From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Message-ID: <19990126054206.A13245(a)rek.tjls.com> Reply-To: tls(a)rek.tjls.com References: <199901260840.DAA03265(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199901260840.DAA03265(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 03:40:19AM -0500 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 03:40:19AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote: > > You may believe whatever you want, but I will only remark that several very > prominent VAX hardware gurus (some of them on this list) support my work very > eagerly. Whatever you or the NetBSD gang may believe, my True UNIX is the only > UNIX system that is really a VAX OS and can truly drive a VAX the way it's > supposed to be driven. > When it "drives" most VAXen, I encourage you to let me know. It won't even run on most of the VAXen I have, and I don't expect that to change any time soon. But if your definition of "the way it's supposed to be driven" is "not at all", I guess I have no quibble with your logic, at least. I want support for the hardware I own, and features like mmap() and NFS. Between those, I think you'll find quite a bit of the bloat you're complaining about. I also want some user-convenience features like dynamic libraries and a compiler that can actually optimize code worth a damn, even if it's GCC, which I think you'd probably find even more objectionable. So any system you produce is not likely to be useful to me. Let's agree to disagree about this. > > All that I ask is that you not touch the value of the "BSD" symbol which is > > exposed to the userland C namespace. The chaos which would ensue should > > a "later" version of BSD appear which didn't support the full 4.4BSD feature > > set is horrifying to contemplate. > > Don't worry, I'm not planning on doing that. Although I do not consider 4.4BSD > to be True UNIX, I do acknowledge that it exists, and I do respect the laws of > arithmetics and sequential numbering, so I don't plan on using numbers like > 4.5BSD or 5BSD. Instead, I follow CSRG's own convention of calling 4.3-followup > systems 4.3BSD-BlahBlahBlah, just like they did with 4.3BSD-Tahoe. You do understand that "CSRG's own convention" involved increasing the value of the "BSD" symbol in the user namespace with each release? I'm just asking that you be careful not to produce a system which would be difficult to distinguish from other systems with a very different feature matrix. > > > Despite the great temptation to do so, neither the NetBSD nor the FreeBSD > > project have taken up the mantle of CSRG [...] > > Excellent! This gives me the luxury of being free from competitors. Look, if you're going to mixmaster my text like this, I'm not about to respond to yours any more and give you more material to play with. As I said, I have an interest in old Unices mostly for historical reasons; you appear to have an interest because you want to branch new development from them -- fine, that's as may be, who cares? There's certainly room for both points of view, and I fail to see why you're being so combative. [...] > First of all, I didn't say "I'm CSRG", I said that I am CSRG's legitimate and > authorized successor. Second, there is nothing in the words "Computer Systems > Research Group" that is limited to Berkeley. Any group of researchers could > conceivably come up with that name. However, doing that would be extremely > confusing, therefore, I don't want to do that. I personally don't read the statement "If you want CSRG, here I am" quite like that, but whatever. You might not want to say things like that in the future if you don't want to confuse and possibly irritate a fair number of people who have a great deal of respect for CSRG and what they did. But that free advice is probably worth what you paid for it. > Check out the Quasijarus features page: > > http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/features.html > > So far the list is not that long, but keep in mind that the work started less > than a month ago. It's nice to see someone working on any Berkeley UNIX. Thor Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id VAA15170 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:44:12 +1100 (EST) >From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Tue Jan 26 20:43:58 1999 Received: from mail1.panix.com (mail1.panix.com [166.84.0.212]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA15165 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:44:03 +1100 (EST) Received: from panix7.panix.com (root(a)panix7.nyc.access.net [166.84.0.232]) by mail1.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixM1.3) with ESMTP id FAA10337 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:43:58 -0500 (EST) Received: (from tls@localhost) by panix7.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id FAA14928 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:43:58 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:43:58 -0500 From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Message-ID: <19990126054358.B13245(a)rek.tjls.com> Reply-To: tls(a)rek.tjls.com References: <199901261008.FAA03320(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199901261008.FAA03320(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 05:08:17AM -0500 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 05:08:17AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> wrote: > > > You can trademark anything that hasn't already been trademarked. > > But if a system has already existed under a certain name for 15 years, just > because some twit suddenly decided to trademark it doesn't mean that the > original author and copyright owner suddenly has to change its name. If some You do understand that the "some twit" you're talking about is, at least by extension, Mike Karels? Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id AAA15631 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 00:27:29 +1100 (EST) >From alejandro gonzalez <agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu> Tue Jan 26 23:27:15 1999 Received: from ferret.cs.fiu.edu (ferret.cs.fiu.edu [131.94.125.231]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA15626 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 00:27:20 +1100 (EST) Received: from dizzy.cs.fiu.edu (dizzy.cs.fiu.edu [131.94.131.2]) by ferret.cs.fiu.edu (8.9.1/FIU-CS-1.1) with ESMTP id IAA04796 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:27:15 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:27:15 -0500 (EST) From: alejandro gonzalez <agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: UNIX V6 Enhancements/Games In-Reply-To: <199901260317.AA02518(a)world.std.com> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9901260824400.19662-100000(a)dizzy.cs.fiu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Reading the Unix Summary, I have noticed that some packages are distributed as Enhancements: Like TROFF, or some of the Games, and not in the orginial distribution The Unix System the comes with the tapes does not come with Man, Troff, etc.. Is any of this extra stuff in the Pups Archive? If so, Where? Thanks alot, Alex ********************************* Alejandro Gonzalez HPDRC Research Assistant NASA Regional Application Center agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu ********************************* Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA16980 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 06:30:36 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 3 months

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Re: 4.4BSD

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> wrote: > Now you mention this, I seem to remember that BSDI registered the name > BSD as a trade mark, so you wouldn't be able to even if you wanted to. That's nonsense. You can't trademark something that isn't even yours. BSDI has no rights whatsoever to the code copyrighted by the Regents of University of California. The BSD license agreement explicitly allows unrestricted modification and distribution of modified versions. Incrementing the version number is one of the most natural operations a developer modifying the system can do. If I were to use CSRG's final 1995 code as my starting point, I would indeed call my system 4.5BSD, and I would have the full right to do so. The only reason I do not and cannot call my system 4.5BSD, 5BSD, or whatever is because I'm tmachining the SCCS tree back to 1988, nullifying 4.4BSD. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id TAA14866 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:49:29 +1100 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Jan 26 18:49:16 1999 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA14861 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:49:21 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id TAA05782; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:19:17 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id TAA94514; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:19:16 +1030 (CST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:19:16 +1030 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: Michael Sokolov <mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Message-ID: <19990126191916.A66239(a)freebie.lemis.com> References: <199901260840.DAA03267(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199901260840.DAA03267(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 03:40:40AM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tuesday, 26 January 1999 at 3:40:40 -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> wrote: > >> Now you mention this, I seem to remember that BSDI registered the name >> BSD as a trade mark, so you wouldn't be able to even if you wanted to. > > That's nonsense. You can't trademark something that isn't even > yours. You can trademark anything that hasn't already been trademarked. > BSDI has no rights whatsoever to the code copyrighted by the Regents > of University of California. Of course they have. The rights are described in the Berkeley License. > The BSD license agreement explicitly allows unrestricted > modification and distribution of modified versions. Precisely. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id UAA15026 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:54:41 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 3 months

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Re: 4.4BSD

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote: > I frankly consider this to be silly, somewhat presumptious, and, for myself, > at least, a waste of time. But if it's something _you_ want to do, I > encourage you to do it, I suppose. You may believe whatever you want, but I will only remark that several very prominent VAX hardware gurus (some of them on this list) support my work very eagerly. Whatever you or the NetBSD gang may believe, my True UNIX is the only UNIX system that is really a VAX OS and can truly drive a VAX the way it's supposed to be driven. > All that I ask is that you not touch the value of the "BSD" symbol which is > exposed to the userland C namespace. The chaos which would ensue should > a "later" version of BSD appear which didn't support the full 4.4BSD feature > set is horrifying to contemplate. Don't worry, I'm not planning on doing that. Although I do not consider 4.4BSD to be True UNIX, I do acknowledge that it exists, and I do respect the laws of arithmetics and sequential numbering, so I don't plan on using numbers like 4.5BSD or 5BSD. Instead, I follow CSRG's own convention of calling 4.3-followup systems 4.3BSD-BlahBlahBlah, just like they did with 4.3BSD-Tahoe. > Despite the great temptation to do so, neither the NetBSD nor the FreeBSD > project have taken up the mantle of CSRG [...] Excellent! This gives me the luxury of being free from competitors. > History is history. Yes, history is history, and I respect it as such. I'm not trying to abuse my write access to the 4BSD collection and maliciously modify some preserved tape image without anyone's knowledge. However, there is nothing in the world that prevents a developer from creating a new version of system from an old one. If there is an SCCS file with deltas ranging from 1.1 to 7.16, there is absolutely nothing in the world preventing a developer with legitimate authorized write access to that file from checking in delta 7.17. I am a legitimate authorized Berkeley UNIX developer (actually the principal one at the present time). My title as the principal maintainer has been legitimized and blessed by the previous CSRG maintainer. > Pretending > to be an organization which doesn't exist... First of all, I didn't say "I'm CSRG", I said that I am CSRG's legitimate and authorized successor. Second, there is nothing in the words "Computer Systems Research Group" that is limited to Berkeley. Any group of researchers could conceivably come up with that name. However, doing that would be extremely confusing, therefore, I don't want to do that. > [...] gets very little useful work done. Check out the Quasijarus features page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/features.html So far the list is not that long, but keep in mind that the work started less than a month ago. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id TAA14823 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:27:01 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 3 months

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VAX EPROM upgrades

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Dear VAX users, Due to the storm of protests, the method of distribution of VAX EPROM upgrades has changed from the PUPS archive to direct uuencoded E-mail. If you require an EPROM upgrade for your VAX in order to run a UNIX software distribution obtained from me, please contant me via ARPA Internet SMTP mail and I will send you the EPROM image, compressed and uuencoded. I currently have the images for KA650-B V1.2 and KA42 SCSI/MFM daughterboard. The VAX odds and ends directory in the PUPS archive will still contain the soft-loaded microcode files and booters, which have already been freely distributed with different VAX UNIX systems (either 4.3BSD-* or BSD derivatives like MIT's Athena-4.3BSD). Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id TAA14811 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:26:42 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 3 months

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Re: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Let's look at things from the practical viewpoint, OK? One of my goals is to establish a repository containing the latest available microcode revision for every machine supported by my UNIX system. Why? As you may remember from our extensive phone discussions, UNIX is quite picky about which hardware to run on. In many cases (on a 730, for example), UNIX won't boot if the firmware is below the minimum required revision. I know for sure that this is the case on 730, 8200, and if James Lothian's WCS changes get integrated, 750. It will also be the case on BabyVAXen when I get around to supporting them. Now, so far I haven't heard any reports of UNIX refusing to boot on KA650s with early microcode revisions, but one may come in at some point. Since my KA650 runs UNIX right now, I know for sure that at least my version of the firmware is UNIX-friendly. By making it available to other 4.3BSD-Quasijarus users (note that keeping the microcode repository within the PUPS archive has the advantage of giving the images out only to Ancient UNIX enthusiasts, i.e., only to those who really need them), I can make sure that the greatest possible number of people can benefit from my 4.3BSD-Quasijarus work. Come on, removing the KA650 from the list of CPUs for which I make microcode updates available won't change anything. I will still have to carry a ragbag of DEC-copyrighted bits and pieces in order to make my OS project successful. Soon UNIX will require a copy of VMB.EXE in order to boot from MSCP disks and TMSCP tapes on large VAXen. Yes, there is one distributed with the machine itself, but it's too old. UNIX requires a very recent version, and if I want my OS to be viable, there will simply be no other choice but to distribute VMB.EXE. Or look at BI-bus machines. There were two different BI network cards made, DEBNA and DEBNI. They have the same hardware, but different EPROMs. DEBNA is the older one and DEBNI is the newer one. They have completely different software interfaces, and DEBNI is a lot simpler to program. Right now UNIX doesn't support any BI network cards. Suppose I decide to add this support. Given how hard it is to find documentation, write drivers, and test them, what do you think, will I welcome the idea of writing two drivers instead of one? Rather than spend months hunting for a BVP manual and writing a DEBNA driver, it's much easier to write a driver for DEBNI only (much simpler software interface) and tell DEBNA users to upgrade their boards to DEBNI. The catch is, if you are getting your 8200 or whatever for free, you don't get to choose which network card to use, you take what you can find. But with me keeping the repository of all important EPROM images and microcode patch files, the poor DEBNA user can just download the image, borrow an EPROM blaster, and run his free VAX with a UNIX-supported DEBNI! The thing of it is, all this hardware is orphaned. If you have a DEBNA and want to upgrade it to DEBNI to run UNIX, or if you have KA650 V1.1 and want to upgrade it to V1.2 to run UNIX, if you call COMPAQ and ask them for a firmware upgrade they'll laugh at you. If DEC still existed and supported this stuff it would be a different story, but with all this hardware orphaned, the poor VAX UNIX users have no one to turn to for microcode upgrades and troubleshooting support except the VAX UNIX maintainer, i.e., me. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA14104 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:43:26 +1100 (EST) >From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Tue Jan 26 14:43:10 1999 Received: from mail1.panix.com (mail1.panix.com [166.84.0.212]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA14099 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:43:16 +1100 (EST) Received: from panix7.panix.com (root(a)panix7.nyc.access.net [166.84.0.232]) by mail1.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixM1.3) with ESMTP id XAA13322 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:43:11 -0500 (EST) Received: (from tls@localhost) by panix7.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id XAA02557 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:43:10 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:43:10 -0500 From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Message-ID: <19990125234310.A1809(a)rek.tjls.com> Reply-To: tls(a)rek.tjls.com References: <199901260323.WAA03123(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199901260323.WAA03123(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 10:23:32PM -0500 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 10:23:32PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote: > > > It would be nice to have the pre-4.4 (was it 4.4-alpha?) and 4.4BSD > > distributions, as shipped by CSRG, in the archive. > > See my previous posting. > > > What would be even nicer would be the entire system as of the last > > time it was touched -- the AT&T-encumbered system which would correspond > > to the free 4.4BSD-Lite2 distribution which was the last public output > > from CSRG. > > You'll get exactly this if you order Marshall Kirk McKusick's CSRG Archives > CD-ROM set. The last CD-ROM is the image of CSRG's master /usr/src as it > existed on the last second of CSRG's existence, one hour after the 4.4BSD-Lite2 > tape was pressed. > > > Did anyone ever build a distribution of such a system? > > You mean binary distribution? Well, the machine the master /usr/src was stored > on ran this system presumably, so I guess the binaries you want existed at some > point. Whether they have been preserved anywhere is an entirely different > matter. > > > Is it feasible > > to do so now? > > I suppose so. The best way to do it would probably be to bootstrap from the > 4.4BSD tape and then recompile the system from the new source tree. > > > I don't have a firm grasp on which architectures would > > actually compile and run as of that point in the SCCS files -- would > > VAX, using the old VM system? > > I also have a very vague idea of what exactly can 4.4BSD-* run on. But > definitely not VAX or Tahoe. There is no old VM in the 4.4BSD-* tree, and the > kernel architecture has changed so much between 4.3BSD and 4.4BSD that back- > porting it is not something I would volunteer to do. > > > I'd assume hp300 would work, since it > > was the primary development platform, right? > > Yes. > > > Had the LBL SPARC port been integrated? > > Yes. > > You know, if your interest is in resurrecting CSRG, my advice to you is not to > bother with 4.4BSD-*, but to join Quasijarus Project instead. The break point My interest is not in "resurrecting CSRG". If I were into that kind of thing I'd just join Jews For Jesus. My interest is pretty much purely historical. > in the history of CSRG was in late 1988. Everything after that is so far from > True UNIX that I have decided to put a big X over it, turn the Universe clock > back to that point (using my SCCS Time Machine), declare all of CSRG's > post-1988 work "not really CSRG", and declare myself CSRG's true successor. > > If you look at my mail signature, you'll see that I'm the new official > maintainer of Berkeley UNIX and the principal architect of its further > development, known as Quasijarus Project. As far as I am concerned, 4.4BSD > never existed except as a "side branch" from True UNIX, and the last True UNIX > release from CSRG was 4.3BSD-Tahoe. I picked it up from that point and now I'm > maintaining and developing it just as CSRG did until 1988. I am the true > successor of true CSRG. If you want CSRG, here I am. I frankly consider this to be silly, somewhat presumptious, and, for myself, at least, a waste of time. But if it's something _you_ want to do, I encourage you to do it, I suppose. All that I ask is that you not touch the value of the "BSD" symbol which is exposed to the userland C namespace. The chaos which would ensue should a "later" version of BSD appear which didn't support the full 4.4BSD feature set is horrifying to contemplate. Despite the great temptation to do so, neither the NetBSD nor the FreeBSD project have taken up the mantle of CSRG and mucked around with that symbol, nor released "4.5BSD" "5BSD", or the like. History is history. Pretending to be an organization which doesn't exist... gets very little useful work done. At least that's my personal take on it. I think you'd find a substantial number of people who thought that the "True UNIX" line ran through either SunOS 4 or 9th and 10th Edition, were you to take a poll of as many wizards as you could summon. But it's a silly thing to argue about, which is why I'll assert no position at all on that issue. Similarly, I have no interest in arguing about Common LISP versus Scheme or vi versus Emacs. Please don't tempt me with a discussion of X versus MGR or C versus C++ and I'll avoid lecturing at you about _my_ religious hot buttons. :-) -- Thor Lancelot Simon tls(a)rek.tjls.com "And where do all these highways go, now that we are free?" Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA14164 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:57:16 +1100 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Jan 26 14:56:59 1999 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA14158 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:57:06 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id PAA04633; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:27:04 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id PAA93369; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:26:59 +1030 (CST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:26:59 +1030 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Message-ID: <19990126152659.I66239(a)freebie.lemis.com> References: <199901260323.WAA03123(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> <19990125234310.A1809(a)rek.tjls.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <19990125234310.A1809(a)rek.tjls.com>; from Thor Lancelot Simon on Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 11:43:10PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Monday, 25 January 1999 at 23:43:10 -0500, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote: > On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 10:23:32PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: >> in the history of CSRG was in late 1988. Everything after that is so far from >> True UNIX that I have decided to put a big X over it, turn the Universe clock >> back to that point (using my SCCS Time Machine), declare all of CSRG's >> post-1988 work "not really CSRG", and declare myself CSRG's true successor. >> >> If you look at my mail signature, you'll see that I'm the new official >> maintainer of Berkeley UNIX and the principal architect of its further >> development, known as Quasijarus Project. As far as I am concerned, 4.4BSD >> never existed except as a "side branch" from True UNIX, and the last True UNIX >> release from CSRG was 4.3BSD-Tahoe. I picked it up from that point and now I'm >> maintaining and developing it just as CSRG did until 1988. I am the true >> successor of true CSRG. If you want CSRG, here I am. > > All that I ask is that you not touch the value of the "BSD" symbol which is > exposed to the userland C namespace. The chaos which would ensue should > a "later" version of BSD appear which didn't support the full 4.4BSD feature > set is horrifying to contemplate. > > Despite the great temptation to do so, neither the NetBSD nor the FreeBSD > project have taken up the mantle of CSRG and mucked around with that symbol, > nor released "4.5BSD" "5BSD", or the like. History is history. Pretending > to be an organization which doesn't exist... gets very little useful work > done. At least that's my personal take on it. Now you mention this, I seem to remember that BSDI registered the name BSD as a trade mark, so you wouldn't be able to even if you wanted to. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA14191 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:01:14 +1100 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Jan 26 15:01:02 1999 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA14186 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:01:04 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id PAA04650; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:31:02 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id PAA93393; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:31:02 +1030 (CST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:31:02 +1030 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: Michael Sokolov <mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Licensed microcode (was: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image) Message-ID: <19990126153102.J66239(a)freebie.lemis.com> References: <199901260450.XAA03161(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199901260450.XAA03161(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 11:50:33PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Monday, 25 January 1999 at 23:50:33 -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Let's look at things from the practical viewpoint, OK? I think one aspect of a practical viewpoint is to acknowledge that there are laws relating to proprietary code. It's not practical to break these laws, no matter what you may think of them. > One of my goals is to establish a repository containing the latest > available microcode revision for every machine supported by my UNIX > system. Fine. Then negotiate with the owners of the microcode. I'd guess that it wouldn't be as difficult as with the AU licenses. But don't endanger others with your views on legality. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA14415 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:25:56 +1100 (EST) >From Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com> Wed Jan 13 16:13:50 1999 Received: from mail.calweb.com (mail.calweb.com [209.210.251.12]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA14409 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:25:47 +1100 (EST) Received: by mail.calweb.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA16989; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:25:39 -0800 (PST) X-SMTP: helo rick from rickgc(a)calweb.com server @sac2-110.calweb.com ip 207.211.93.110 user=rickgc Message-Id: <3.0.32.19990112221347.006a9f90(a)pop.calweb.com> X-Sender: rickgc(a)pop.calweb.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 22:13:50 -0800 To: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov), pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au From: Rick Copeland <rickgc(a)calweb.com> Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk No problem! At 09:35 PM 1/25/99 -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: >emanuel stiebler <emu(a)ecubics.com> wrote: > >> Hi all, >> why this version isn't in the pups archive ? > >Generally it's my job as the TUHS 4BSD coordinator to ensure the completeness >of TUHS 4BSD collection, but right now I can't do anything, since Rick Copeland >has Marshall Kirk McKusick's tapes, not me. > >Rick, would you please decide whether or not you are interested in reading >_ALL_ of Marshall Kirk McKusick's tapes? If you are, please read them. If not, >please return them to Kirk so that someone more industrious and motivated can >take a stab at them (I have Kirk's OK). > >Michael Sokolov >TUHS 4BSD Coordinator >4.3BSD-* Maintainer >Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer >Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 >ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu >TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ >Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ > > Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id SAA14579 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:31:22 +1100 (EST)

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Re: 4.4BSD

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote: > It would be nice to have the pre-4.4 (was it 4.4-alpha?) and 4.4BSD > distributions, as shipped by CSRG, in the archive. See my previous posting. > What would be even nicer would be the entire system as of the last > time it was touched -- the AT&T-encumbered system which would correspond > to the free 4.4BSD-Lite2 distribution which was the last public output > from CSRG. You'll get exactly this if you order Marshall Kirk McKusick's CSRG Archives CD-ROM set. The last CD-ROM is the image of CSRG's master /usr/src as it existed on the last second of CSRG's existence, one hour after the 4.4BSD-Lite2 tape was pressed. > Did anyone ever build a distribution of such a system? You mean binary distribution? Well, the machine the master /usr/src was stored on ran this system presumably, so I guess the binaries you want existed at some point. Whether they have been preserved anywhere is an entirely different matter. > Is it feasible > to do so now? I suppose so. The best way to do it would probably be to bootstrap from the 4.4BSD tape and then recompile the system from the new source tree. > I don't have a firm grasp on which architectures would > actually compile and run as of that point in the SCCS files -- would > VAX, using the old VM system? I also have a very vague idea of what exactly can 4.4BSD-* run on. But definitely not VAX or Tahoe. There is no old VM in the 4.4BSD-* tree, and the kernel architecture has changed so much between 4.3BSD and 4.4BSD that back- porting it is not something I would volunteer to do. > I'd assume hp300 would work, since it > was the primary development platform, right? Yes. > Had the LBL SPARC port been integrated? Yes. You know, if your interest is in resurrecting CSRG, my advice to you is not to bother with 4.4BSD-*, but to join Quasijarus Project instead. The break point in the history of CSRG was in late 1988. Everything after that is so far from True UNIX that I have decided to put a big X over it, turn the Universe clock back to that point (using my SCCS Time Machine), declare all of CSRG's post-1988 work "not really CSRG", and declare myself CSRG's true successor. If you look at my mail signature, you'll see that I'm the new official maintainer of Berkeley UNIX and the principal architect of its further development, known as Quasijarus Project. As far as I am concerned, 4.4BSD never existed except as a "side branch" from True UNIX, and the last True UNIX release from CSRG was 4.3BSD-Tahoe. I picked it up from that point and now I'm maintaining and developing it just as CSRG did until 1988. I am the true successor of true CSRG. If you want CSRG, here I am. BTW, it's not just that I suddenly declared myself to be the new CSRG. I earned this title, not just assumed it. Marshall Kirk McKusick himself (the previous maintainer of CSRG) acknowledges me as the new principal maintainer and architect. Oh, and he doesn't even object to my decision to undo all of his and others' 1988-1995 work with the SCCS Time Machine. He said himself in a private E-mail that he would love to see the golden old non-bloated system resurrected. I have used the term "True UNIX" several times in this message. Let me explain what I mean. While others may view the history of UNIX as a tree (you hear about UNIX history tree diagrams all the time), I view it as a straight line. The straight line of _mainstream_ True UNIX development looks like this: V6 (Bell) -> V7 (Bell) -> 32V (Bell) -> 3BSD (UCB) -> 4.0BSD (UCB) -> 4.1BSD (UCB) -> 4.2BSD (UCB) -> 4.3BSD (UCB) -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe (UCB) -> 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 (Michael Sokolov) -> future Quasijarus releases (Michael Sokolov). For each release the responsible entity is indicated in parentheses. There are several things worth noting here. Notice how after V7 and 32V the torch of True UNIX development moves from Bell to UCB, never to return to Bell again. This is because everything Bell did after that (System V and such) deviates from the True UNIX ideology and loses the True UNIX torch. In late 1970s or early 1980s UCB picks up this torch and carries it until 1988. In 1988 UCB starts deviating from True UNIX too with the evil spirit of POSIX and everything, and loses the torch. The torch was laying on the ground from that point until the 27th of December 1998 when I picked it up with the 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 release. Now I'm carrying it into the next millennium. Check out the Quasijarus Project WWW page referenced in my mail signature. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA13519 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:17:20 +1100 (EST)

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Re: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> Get that out of there fast, it's copyrighted firmware! < <The PUPS archive already contains some PDP-11 boot/diag/etc. odds and ends. <not have VAX ones too? Yes but, not copyrighted firmware. The KA650 B V1.2 firmware is not released or granted publication that I know of and the straw horse of, "well, PDP-xx is here" is not the issue. <BTW, there is a long tradition of shipping DEC odds and ends with UNIX. Jus <look at pcs750.bin, or at DEC-contributed device drivers in 4.3BSD, or at t There is a distinct difference between DEC contributed and the KA650 rom image. <fact that if you do a strings(1) on 4.3BSD /genvmunix, you'll see DEC's <copyright and the word "ULTRIX" in a whole bunch of places. Ancient UNIX an <Ancient DEC live together very well. Please don't separate them. If our gro <(PUPS/TUHS) loves and cares for Ancient UNIX, we should also love and care <Ancient DEC. It is neither the point nor applicable. It's a specious arguement in an attempt to not respect the copyrighted firmware on the CPU card that is not distributed. The fact that DEC and unix go well is not the issue either. <And finally, some of the files in my odds-ends directory were originally <recovered from some BSD distribution (the ULTRIX rabads program, which desp <its DEC copyright, ULTRIX origin, and binary-only nature came with some BS <distributions). I doubt that the KA650 bootrom image was in there as original distribution. If the system is a KA650 it would be available on the system and if it is not it's meaningless. My comment earlier was directly and specifically aimed at the KA650 B V1.2 Eprom image. The problem is that failure to respect the copyrights and ownerships of any code, especially firmware could lead to vendors taking a future hostile stance to the work of PUPS. That would be very undesireable. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA14043 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:37:02 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 3 months

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Re: 4.4BSD

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

emanuel stiebler <emu(a)ecubics.com> wrote: > Hi all, > why this version isn't in the pups archive ? Generally it's my job as the TUHS 4BSD coordinator to ensure the completeness of TUHS 4BSD collection, but right now I can't do anything, since Rick Copeland has Marshall Kirk McKusick's tapes, not me. Rick, would you please decide whether or not you are interested in reading _ALL_ of Marshall Kirk McKusick's tapes? If you are, please read them. If not, please return them to Kirk so that someone more industrious and motivated can take a stab at them (I have Kirk's OK). Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA13461 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:09:52 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 3 months

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Re: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent) wrote: > Get that out of there fast, it's copyrighted firmware! The PUPS archive already contains some PDP-11 boot/diag/etc. odds and ends. Why not have VAX ones too? But if too many people start complaining, I'll just move the entire odds-ends directory to one of my friend's _anonymous_ FTP site. BTW, there is a long tradition of shipping DEC odds and ends with UNIX. Just look at pcs750.bin, or at DEC-contributed device drivers in 4.3BSD, or at the fact that if you do a strings(1) on 4.3BSD /genvmunix, you'll see DEC's copyright and the word "ULTRIX" in a whole bunch of places. Ancient UNIX and Ancient DEC live together very well. Please don't separate them. If our group (PUPS/TUHS) loves and cares for Ancient UNIX, we should also love and care for Ancient DEC. And finally, some of the files in my odds-ends directory were originally recovered from some BSD distribution (the ULTRIX rabads program, which despite its DEC copyright, ULTRIX origin, and binary-only nature came with some BSD distributions). Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA13004 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:22:35 +1100 (EST) >From "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> Tue Jan 26 11:21:38 1999 Received: from biz1.mailsrvcs.net (biz1.gte.net [207.115.153.50]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA12999 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:22:27 +1100 (EST) Received: from p2350 ([208.250.164.80]) by biz1.mailsrvcs.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-40549L5000S0) with ESMTP id AAA24603 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 19:22:21 -0600 From: "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> To: <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: 4.4BSD Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 18:21:38 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19990126012214.AAA24603@p2350> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi all, why this version isn't in the pups archive ? cheers, emanuel Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA13171 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:05:32 +1100 (EST) >From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Tue Jan 26 12:05:12 1999 Received: from mail2.panix.com (mail2.panix.com [166.84.0.213]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA13165 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:05:22 +1100 (EST) Received: from panix7.panix.com (root(a)panix7.nyc.access.net [166.84.0.232]) by mail2.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixM1.3) with ESMTP id VAA17162 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:05:12 -0500 (EST) Received: (from tls@localhost) by panix7.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id VAA23416 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:05:12 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:05:12 -0500 From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Message-ID: <19990125210512.A22884(a)rek.tjls.com> Reply-To: tls(a)rek.tjls.com References: <19990126012214.AAA24603@p2350> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <19990126012214.AAA24603@p2350>; from emanuel stiebler on Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 06:21:38PM -0700 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 06:21:38PM -0700, emanuel stiebler wrote: > Hi all, > why this version isn't in the pups archive ? > > cheers, > emanuel It would be nice to have the pre-4.4 (was it 4.4-alpha?) and 4.4BSD distributions, as shipped by CSRG, in the archive. What would be even nicer would be the entire system as of the last time it was touched -- the AT&T-encumbered system which would correspond to the free 4.4BSD-Lite2 distribution which was the last public output from CSRG. Did anyone ever build a distribution of such a system? Is it feasible to do so now? I don't have a firm grasp on which architectures would actually compile and run as of that point in the SCCS files -- would VAX, using the old VM system? I'd assume hp300 would work, since it was the primary development platform, right? Had the LBL SPARC port been integrated? -- Thor Lancelot Simon tls(a)rek.tjls.com "And where do all these highways go, now that we are free?" Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA13220 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:21:38 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 3 months

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Re: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I have added the EPROM image from my KA650-B V1.2 CPU to the VAX firmware <collection in Distributions/4bsd/odds-ends in the PUPS archive. Get that out of there fast, it's copyrighted firmware! Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA12960 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:11:38 +1100 (EST)

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KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Dear PUPS/TUHS members, I have added the EPROM image from my KA650-B V1.2 CPU to the VAX firmware collection in Distributions/4bsd/odds-ends in the PUPS archive. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 440-449-0299 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu

26 years, 3 months

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DEC odds and ends

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Dear PUPS/TUHS members, I have just created a new directory in the 4BSD area of the PUPS archive, Distributions/4bsd/odds-ends. This directory contains various DEC odds and ends: microcodes, ROM images, diags, VMS/Ultrix booters and bits, etc. The following items are currently available: rabads.core Ultrix rabads program, pure core version for putting onto console media and loading via console commands. rabads.a.out Ultrix rabads program, a.out version for putting onto a UNIX filesystem and loading via UNIX boot. scsimfm.bin EPROM image from the SCSI/MFM daughterboard for KA42. This list is certain to grow very soon. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 440-449-0299 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu

26 years, 3 months

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Quasijarus Project WWW page set update and change in passwd plans

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Dear PUPS/TUHS members, I have just updated the Quasijarus Project WWW page set, adding the features page listing all features added to the master source tree since the currently shipping release. You can find this new page at: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/features.html I have also changed my plans regarding the shadow and shared passwords. See: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/passwd.html Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Cellular phone: 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu

26 years, 3 months

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Re: Old pic of ken and dmr

by Warren Toomey

In article by Tom Ivar Helbekkmo: > Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> writes: > > > Patrick Regan, from Bell Labs, has sent in a 2M jpg of > > Ken and Dennis at the console of a PDP-11/20, around 1970. > > That's neat! I've got a very good print of it here (that huge Epson > color inkjet printer we bought at work really does a good job with the > expensive "photo quality" paper in it), and will frame it and hang it > on the wall of my basement machine room in my home. However (and my > ignorance is showing now, I know) who is whom in the picture? Dennis is the one, bearded, on the left. Ken is sitting at the terminal. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA21478 for pups-liszt; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 09:57:09 +1100 (EST) >From Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> Fri Jan 22 08:56:42 1999 Received: from mpl.ucsd.edu (chiton.ucsd.edu [192.135.238.128]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA21473 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 09:56:59 +1100 (EST) Received: (from cdl@localhost) by mpl.ucsd.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id OAA16254; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:56:42 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:56:42 -0800 (PST) From: Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> Message-Id: <199901212256.OAA16254(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> To: agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu, wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: UNIX V6.TAPE Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> > Subject: Re: UNIX V6.TAPE > Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:50:59 +1100 (EST) > > In article by alejandro gonzalez: > > > > Can anyone point me to instructions on getting the tape in: Ken_Wellsch_v6 > > up and running on Supnik's Simulator? I have been trying some things, and > > when it gives me the '=' prompt, anything i type makes the program freeze. > > > > I have been following these instructions, the problem comes up when I > > get the '=' prompt. I type: "tmrk", it just freezes. > > The 6th Ed installation instructions say: The tape contains 12100 512-byte > records followed by a single file mark. Have you made the tape image for > Bob Supnik's emulator to match this, and what configuration file are you > giving to the emulator? But the tape image also contains bootstraps for two kinds of tape drives in the first 100 blocks. Followed by 3 x 4000-block RK05 images. More than this I don't remember offhand, but I do have the "Setting up Unix" document on a bookshelf somewhere in another office. > P.S You can use the RK05 disk image in > Distributions/research/Dennis_v6/v6root.gz, or the RL02 image in > Bootable_Images/v6_rl02_unknown.gz, > unless you really do want to install V6 from tape. The number of people in the world who have actually installed V6 from tape is probably pretty small. But I am one of them, for better or worse. carl carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego {decvax|ucbvax} !ucsd!mpl!cdl cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu clowenstein(a)ucsd.edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA21792 for pups-liszt; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:07:41 +1100 (EST) >From Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> Fri Jan 22 10:03:31 1999 Received: from caveman.geac.com.au (caveman.geac.com.au [203.30.73.2]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA21787 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:07:30 +1100 (EST) Received: (qmail 6007 invoked from network); 22 Jan 1999 00:08:09 -0000 Received: from brane.geac.com.au (202.6.67.115) by caveman.geac.com.au with SMTP; 22 Jan 1999 00:08:09 -0000 Received: from fgh.geac.com.au by brane.geac.com.au with smtp\n (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m103U3c-0002fpC; Fri, 22 Jan 99 11:02 AEDT Received: from localhost (dave@localhost) by fgh.geac.com.au (SMI-8.X/SVR4) with ESMTP id LAA04565 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:03:31 +1100 Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:03:31 +1100 (EST) From: Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> X-Sender: dave@fgh To: PDP Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: UNIX V6.TAPE In-Reply-To: <199901212256.OAA16254(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.03.9901221102270.3559-100000@fgh> X-No-Archive: Yes X-Witty-Saying: "Tesseract - Enter at own risk" X-Disclaimer: "Me, speak for us?" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Carl Lowenstein wrote: > The number of people in the world who have actually installed V6 from > tape is probably pretty small. But I am one of them, for better or worse. Me too :-) But I've long since forgotten the details... -- Dave Horsfall VK2KFU dave(a)geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: +61 2 9978-7422 Geac Computers P/L (FGH Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA21973 for pups-liszt; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:31:53 +1100 (EST) >From "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net> Fri Jan 22 10:36:01 1999 Received: from coffee.corliss.net (erin(a)coffee.gta-tech.com.121.7.12.in-addr.arpa [12.7.121.245] (may be forged)) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA21968 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:31:44 +1100 (EST) Received: from localhost (erin@localhost) by coffee.corliss.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA01606 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 16:36:01 -0800 Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 16:36:01 -0800 (PST) From: "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Memory Management Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990121163113.412A-100000(a)coffee.corliss.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk The documentation that Warren gave me describes the memory management scheme. It says that when the machine is first started, the memory management unit is disabled -- anyone know how to enable it, and where the segmentation registers are (I'm assuming they are in the 0160000-0177777 range somewhere)? Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA22017 for pups-liszt; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:38:06 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Fri Jan 22 10:39:04 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA22012 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:37:58 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA11544 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:39:04 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901220039.LAA11544(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: UNIX V6.TAPE To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:39:04 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk All, Here is how to install 6th Edition from the tape image v6.tape.gz in Distributions/research/Ken_Wellsch_v6, onto Bob Supnik's emulator 2.3d: I found makesimtape.c in Trees/2.11BSD/usr/src/sys/pdpstand in the PUPS Archive. Warren /usr/local/src/Sim_2.3d: ls -l total 14822 -rwx------ 1 wkt wheel 6018 Jan 22 11:18 makesimtape -rwx------ 1 wkt wheel 117728 Jan 11 14:02 pdp -rw------- 1 wkt wheel 42 Jan 22 11:27 v6 -r-------- 1 wkt wheel 6195200 Jan 22 11:20 v6.tape -r-------- 1 wkt wheel 2494464 Jan 15 14:14 v6root -rw------- 1 wkt wheel 14 Jan 22 11:23 z /usr/local/src/Sim_2.3d: cat z # Input to makesimtape v6.tape 1 * 1 /usr/local/src/Sim_2.3d: ./makesimtape -i z -o v6tape v6.tape: block 0, file 0 # Output is file v6tape, not shown /usr/local/src/Sim_2.3d: cat v6 # Supnik sim config file set cpu 18b att rk0 v6root att tm0 v6tape /usr/local/src/Sim_2.3d: ./pdp v6 # Run simulator PDP-11 simulator V2.3d sim> id 10000-10012 # Toggle in boot code 10000: 012700 # as per V6 install 10002: 172526 # instructions 10004: 010040 10006: 012740 10010: 060003 10012: 000777 sim> g 10000 # Run above boot code # After a while, enter ctrl-E Simulation stopped, PC: 010012 (BR 10012) sim> g 0 # Restart CPU at location 0 =tmrk disk offset # Follow instructions as per 0 # V6 install notes tape offset 100 count 1 =tmrk disk offset 1 tape offset 101 count 3999 = # Enter ctrl-E Simulation stopped, PC: 137274 (TSTB @#177560) sim> b rk # Boot RK device 0 @rkunix # Choose correct kernel image login: root # ls -l total 244 drwxrwxr-x 2 bin 1104 May 14 00:47 bin drwxrwxr-x 2 bin 1824 Aug 14 22:04 dev drwxrwxr-x 2 bin 496 Oct 10 12:29 etc -rwxrwxrwx 1 root 29074 Oct 10 12:28 hpunix drwxrwxr-x 2 bin 464 May 13 23:35 lib drwxrwxr-x 2 bin 32 May 13 20:01 mnt -rwxrwxrwx 1 root 28836 Oct 10 12:22 rkunix -rwxrwxrwx 1 root 29020 Oct 10 12:25 rpunix drwxrwxrwx 2 bin 272 Jul 18 09:19 tmp -rw-rw-rw- 1 root 28684 Jul 18 09:18 unix drwxrwxr-x 14 bin 224 May 13 20:16 usr # sync # # Enter ctrl-E again Simulation stopped, PC: 016022 (SOB R4,15746) sim> q Goodbye Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA22539 for pups-liszt; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:22:41 +1100 (EST) >From Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> Fri Jan 22 13:18:36 1999 Received: from caveman.geac.com.au (caveman.geac.com.au [203.30.73.2]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA22534 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:22:33 +1100 (EST) Received: (qmail 9283 invoked from network); 22 Jan 1999 03:23:13 -0000 Received: from brane.geac.com.au (202.6.67.115) by caveman.geac.com.au with SMTP; 22 Jan 1999 03:23:13 -0000 Received: from fgh.geac.com.au by brane.geac.com.au with smtp\n (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m103X6K-0002fpC; Fri, 22 Jan 99 14:17 AEDT Received: from localhost (dave@localhost) by fgh.geac.com.au (SMI-8.X/SVR4) with ESMTP id OAA06957; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:18:37 +1100 Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:18:36 +1100 (EST) From: Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> X-Sender: dave@fgh To: "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Memory Management In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990121163113.412A-100000(a)coffee.corliss.net> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.03.9901221417120.3559-100000@fgh> X-No-Archive: Yes X-Witty-Saying: "Tesseract - Enter at own risk" X-Disclaimer: "Me, speak for us?" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Erin W. Corliss wrote: > The documentation that Warren gave me describes the memory management > scheme. It says that when the machine is first started, the memory > management unit is disabled -- anyone know how to enable it, and where the > segmentation registers are (I'm assuming they are in the 0160000-0177777 > range somewhere)? I'll check my PDP-11 manuals when I get home; if I have a spare one I'll send it to you. What was the model again? An 11/70 or something? -- Dave Horsfall VK2KFU dave(a)geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: +61 2 9978-7422 Geac Computers P/L (FGH Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id TAA23450 for pups-liszt; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 19:13:47 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 3 months

1
0
0 0

UNIX V6.TAPE

by alejandro gonzalez

Can anyone point me to instructions on getting the tape in: Ken_Wellsch_v6 up and running on Supnik's Simulator? I have been trying some things, and when it gives me the '=' prompt, anything i type makes the program freeze. Any help would be appreciated. ********************************* Alejandro Gonzalez HPDRC Research Assistant NASA Regional Application Center agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu ********************************* Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA16173 for pups-liszt; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:14:40 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Jan 21 08:15:24 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA16167 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:14:27 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA08028; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:15:24 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901202215.JAA08028(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: UNIX V6.TAPE In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9901201708340.26596-100000(a)dizzy.cs.fiu.edu> from alejandro gonzalez at "Jan 20, 1999 5:10:51 pm" To: agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu (alejandro gonzalez) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:15:24 +1100 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by alejandro gonzalez: > > Can anyone point me to instructions on getting the tape in: Ken_Wellsch_v6 > up and running on Supnik's Simulator? I have been trying some things, and > when it gives me the '=' prompt, anything i type makes the program freeze. > > Any help would be appreciated. Have a look at the 6th Edition installation instructions at: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS/Setup/v6_setup.html Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA16308 for pups-liszt; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:46:46 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Jan 21 08:47:37 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA16298 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:46:32 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA08078; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:47:37 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901202247.JAA08078(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Early UNIX dates To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:47:37 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk All, After some reading though papers and books, I've come up with the following brief timeline of very early UNIX development. I just thought some of you might find it interesting. Warren Early dates of UNIX Development As accurately as we can tell, anyway! References given where possible. 1969 Unknown: Ken creates `Space Travel'. It was first written on Multics, then transliterated into Fortran for GECOS, then Ken and Dennis rewrote Space Travel to run on the PDP-7 [http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/hist.html] Mid-year: Bell Labs withdraws from the Multics project [QCU pg 8] April, May, June: Ken is interested in writing a file system [QCU pg 8] Mid-year: Ken brings the file system to life on the PDP-7 in a month [QCU pg 10] Unknown: Ken develops the B language [QCU pg 34], [http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/chist.html] 1970 Unknown: Peter Neumann coins the term `Unics', which is subsequently changed to `Unix' [QCU pg 9] Unknown: Alternatively, Brian Kernighan suggests the name `Unix' [http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/hist.html] Mid-year: The PDP-11/20 is purchased, with no disk drives [QCU pg 35], [http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/hist.html] 3 months later: The disks arrive [http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/chist.html] Unknown: Ken recodes the Unix kernel and some commands in PDP-11 assembly code [http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/chist.html] 1971 January-March: PDP-11 version largely rewritten during this period [http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/notes.html] February: PDP-11 Unix beccomes ``operational'' [http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/cacm.html] Unknown: Dennis extends B to be NB [http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/chist.html] Spring: roff rewritten in PDP-11 assembler language, starting from the PDP-7 version that had been transliterated from McIlroy's BCPL version on Multics, which had in turn been inspired by J. Saltzer's runoff program on CTSS [http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/hist.html] November: First Edition manuals were published [QCU pg 43] 1972 January: The Labs issues a technical memorandum, written by Ken, describing the B language on the PDP-11 [http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/kbman.html] March: First manual for cc(1) [QCU pg 48] March: UNIX is running on at least 5 PDP-11/20s [http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/notes.html] June: DEC starts to ship the PDP-11/45. The Labs purchases one sonn after this [http://www.village.org/pdp11/faq.pages/11model.html] June: Second Edition manuals were published. 10 UNIX installations [QCU pg 43] Unknown: Ken adds pipes to the assembly-language version of the kernel [QCU pg 51], [http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/hist.html] 1973 January: the `nsys' kernel in the PUPS archive, written in C [timestamps on the files] February: Third Edition manuals were published. 16 UNIX installations [QCU pg 43] Kernel is still the assembly-language version [private email from dmr dated 7 Jan 1999] September: The C version of the kernel is adopted over the assembly-language version [private email from dmr dated 18 Jan 1999] October: First UNIX paper, presented by Ken at the Fourth ACM Symposium on Operating Systems Principles [http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/cacm.html] November: Fourth Edition manuals were published [QCU pg 43] 1974 June: Fifth Edition manuals were published [QCU pg 43] July: Ken's SOSP published in Communications of the ACM, 17, No. 7 [http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/cacm.html] Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA16677 for pups-liszt; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:59:04 +1100 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Thu Jan 21 10:58:47 1999 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA16672 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:58:54 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA13907; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:28:48 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id LAA18399; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:28:47 +1030 (CST) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:28:47 +1030 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: Mike Jenkins <mjenkins(a)carp.gbr.epa.gov> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Old pic of ken and dmr Message-ID: <19990121112846.N15785(a)freebie.lemis.com> References: <199901200346.OAA06481(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> <199901201649.KAA08238(a)carp.gbr.epa.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199901201649.KAA08238(a)carp.gbr.epa.gov>; from Mike Jenkins on Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 10:49:27AM -0600 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Wednesday, 20 January 1999 at 10:49:27 -0600, Mike Jenkins wrote: >> http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS/Images/ken-and-den.jpg > > There is a smaller (26K) gif version on the following page: > > http://www.lucent.com/museum/1969unix.html > > The URL for the gif is: > > http://www.lucent.com/museum/images/1950/1969rt.gif The original .jpeg could do with re-saving; with xv you can get it down to 10% of the original volume. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA16767 for pups-liszt; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:28:50 +1100 (EST) >From alejandro gonzalez <agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu> Thu Jan 21 11:28:31 1999 Received: from ferret.cs.fiu.edu (ferret.cs.fiu.edu [131.94.125.231]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA16762 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:28:41 +1100 (EST) Received: from sdb1.cs.fiu.edu (sdb1.cs.fiu.edu [131.94.131.15]) by ferret.cs.fiu.edu (8.9.1/FIU-CS-1.1) with ESMTP id UAA07861; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 20:28:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 20:28:31 -0500 (EST) From: alejandro gonzalez <agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu> To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: UNIX V6.TAPE In-Reply-To: <199901202215.JAA08028(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9901202027130.10646-100000(a)sdb1.cs.fiu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk I have been following these instructions, the problem comes up when I get the '=' prompt. I type: "tmrk", it just freezes. Thanks for the help, Alex ********************************* Alejandro Gonzalez HPDRC Research Assistant NASA Regional Application Center agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu ********************************* On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by alejandro gonzalez: > > > > Can anyone point me to instructions on getting the tape in: Ken_Wellsch_v6 > > up and running on Supnik's Simulator? I have been trying some things, and > > when it gives me the '=' prompt, anything i type makes the program freeze. > > > > Any help would be appreciated. > > Have a look at the 6th Edition installation instructions at: > > http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS/Setup/v6_setup.html > > Cheers, > Warren > Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA17122 for pups-liszt; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:50:09 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Jan 21 13:50:59 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA17117 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:50:00 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA09253; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:50:59 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901210350.OAA09253(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: UNIX V6.TAPE In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9901202027130.10646-100000(a)sdb1.cs.fiu.edu> from alejandro gonzalez at "Jan 20, 1999 8:28:31 pm" To: agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu (alejandro gonzalez) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:50:59 +1100 (EST) Cc: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by alejandro gonzalez: > > Can anyone point me to instructions on getting the tape in: Ken_Wellsch_v6 > up and running on Supnik's Simulator? I have been trying some things, and > when it gives me the '=' prompt, anything i type makes the program freeze. > > I have been following these instructions, the problem comes up when I > get the '=' prompt. I type: "tmrk", it just freezes. The 6th Ed installation instructions say: The tape contains 12100 512-byte records followed by a single file mark. Have you made the tape image for Bob Supnik's emulator to match this, and what configuration file are you giving to the emulator? Thanks, Warren P.S You can use the RK05 disk image in Distributions/research/Dennis_v6/v6root.gz, or the RL02 image in Bootable_Images/v6_rl02_unknown.gz, unless you really do want to install V6 from tape. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA17833 for pups-liszt; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:28:42 +1100 (EST) >From Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO> Thu Jan 21 15:23:56 1999 Received: from hesiod.nhh.no (hesiod.nhh.no [158.37.96.15]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA17827 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:28:30 +1100 (EST) Received: from athene.nhh.no (athene.nhh.no [158.37.96.16]) by hesiod.nhh.no (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA28828; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 07:28:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from Hamartun.Priv.NO (Uhamartu@localhost) by athene.nhh.no (8.8.8/8.8.8) with UUCP id HAA03794; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 07:20:14 +0100 (CET) Received: (from tih@localhost) by barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA07716; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 06:23:58 +0100 (CET) To: alejandro gonzalez <agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu> Cc: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: UNIX V6.TAPE References: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9901202027130.10646-100000(a)sdb1.cs.fiu.edu> From: Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO> Date: 21 Jan 1999 06:23:56 +0100 In-Reply-To: alejandro gonzalez's message of "Wed, 20 Jan 1999 20:28:31 -0500 (EST)" Message-ID: <8667a1ci6r.fsf(a)barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO> X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.44/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk alejandro gonzalez <agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu> writes: > I have been following these instructions, the problem comes up when > I get the '=' prompt. I type: "tmrk", it just freezes. You're following the wrong instructions. :-) Or, at least, you're taking them too literally. You're trying to use the tape the way it would be done on a real machine, but it's much easier to just split it into disk images under the host UNIX. Looking in my V6 directory, I've got a text file containing something that I believe Warren wrote, in a text file accompanying the tape image: "This is a copy of the Sixth Edition distribution tape which was sent to me by Ken Wellsch. The file v6.tape.gz is the tape image, with the first 100 512-byte tape blocks containing tape bootstrap stuff. Blocks 100 - 4099 are the RK05 root image, blocks 4100 - 8099 are the /usr RK05 image, and the blocks 8100 - 12099 are the /doc RK05 image." So what I did with that tape, for Bob Supnik's PDP-11 simulator, was to run these commands under the host UNIX: % gunzip v6.tape.gz % dd if=v6.tape of=v6.root.rk05 count=4000 skip=100 % dd if=v6.tape of=v6.usr.rk05 count=4000 skip=4100 % dd if=v6.tape of=v6.doc.rk05 count=4000 skip=8100 Then, I made a script file for the simulator: % cat > v6.script attach rk0 V6.root.rk05 attach rk1 V6.usr.rk05 attach rk2 V6.doc.rk05 boot rk0 ^d % ...and finally, I run the resulting system, thus: % pdp11 v6.script PDP-11 simulator V2.3 @unix login: I may have had to modify something in the actual UNIX V6 system to mount rk1 and rk2 properly -- I don't recall. You'll figure it out. Anyway, the system runs like a charm, and I've successfully rebuilt the kernel from sources on it. Fun! Good luck! -tih -- Popularity is the hallmark of mediocrity. --Niles Crane, "Frasier" Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA17828 for pups-liszt; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:28:34 +1100 (EST) >From Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO> Thu Jan 21 15:28:07 1999 Received: from hesiod.nhh.no (hesiod.nhh.no [158.37.96.15]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA17821 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:28:22 +1100 (EST) Received: from athene.nhh.no (athene.nhh.no [158.37.96.16]) by hesiod.nhh.no (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA28825; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 07:28:17 +0100 (CET) Received: from Hamartun.Priv.NO (Uhamartu@localhost) by athene.nhh.no (8.8.8/8.8.8) with UUCP id HAA03795; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 07:20:14 +0100 (CET) Received: (from tih@localhost) by barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA07720; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 06:28:10 +0100 (CET) To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) Subject: Re: Old pic of ken and dmr References: <199901200346.OAA06481(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> From: Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO> Date: 21 Jan 1999 06:28:07 +0100 In-Reply-To: Warren Toomey's message of "Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:46:41 +1100 (EST)" Message-ID: <863e55chzs.fsf(a)barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO> X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.44/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> writes: > Patrick Regan, from Bell Labs, has sent in a 2M jpg of > Ken and Dennis at the console of a PDP-11/20, around 1970. That's neat! I've got a very good print of it here (that huge Epson color inkjet printer we bought at work really does a good job with the expensive "photo quality" paper in it), and will frame it and hang it on the wall of my basement machine room in my home. However (and my ignorance is showing now, I know) who is whom in the picture? -tih -- Popularity is the hallmark of mediocrity. --Niles Crane, "Frasier" Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id CAA19503 for pups-liszt; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 02:20:54 +1100 (EST) >From "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> Fri Jan 22 01:19:45 1999 Received: from biz1.mailsrvcs.net (biz1.gte.net [207.115.153.50]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA19497 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 02:20:40 +1100 (EST) Received: from p2350 ([208.254.194.59]) by biz1.mailsrvcs.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-40549L5000S0) with ESMTP id AAA2583; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:20:33 -0600 From: "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> To: <wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au>, "Tom Ivar Helbekkmo" <tih(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO> Cc: "Unix Heritage Society" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Old pic of ken and dmr Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 08:19:45 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19990121152024.AAA2583@p2350> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi, ---------- > From: Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO> > To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au > Cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> > Subject: Re: Old pic of ken and dmr > Date: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 10:28 PM > on the wall of my basement machine room in my home. However (and my > ignorance is showing now, I know) who is whom in the picture? Dennis is the one with the glasses & beart ... ;-)) cheers, emu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id EAA20117 for pups-liszt; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 04:14:38 +1100 (EST) >From alejandro gonzalez <agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu> Fri Jan 22 03:14:02 1999 Received: from ferret.cs.fiu.edu (ferret.cs.fiu.edu [131.94.125.231]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA20112 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 04:14:24 +1100 (EST) Received: from sdb1.cs.fiu.edu (sdb1.cs.fiu.edu [131.94.131.15]) by ferret.cs.fiu.edu (8.9.1/FIU-CS-1.1) with ESMTP id MAA04037; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:14:02 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:14:02 -0500 (EST) From: alejandro gonzalez <agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu> To: Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO> cc: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: UNIX V6.TAPE In-Reply-To: <8667a1ci6r.fsf(a)barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9901211213500.18250-100000(a)sdb1.cs.fiu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Thanks a lot. It works now. ********************************* Alejandro Gonzalez HPDRC Research Assistant NASA Regional Application Center agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu ********************************* On 21 Jan 1999, Tom Ivar Helbekkmo wrote: > alejandro gonzalez <agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu> writes: > > > I have been following these instructions, the problem comes up when > > I get the '=' prompt. I type: "tmrk", it just freezes. > > You're following the wrong instructions. :-) Or, at least, you're > taking them too literally. You're trying to use the tape the way it > would be done on a real machine, but it's much easier to just split it > into disk images under the host UNIX. Looking in my V6 directory, > I've got a text file containing something that I believe Warren wrote, > in a text file accompanying the tape image: > > "This is a copy of the Sixth Edition distribution tape which was sent > to me by Ken Wellsch. The file v6.tape.gz is the tape image, with the > first 100 512-byte tape blocks containing tape bootstrap stuff. Blocks > 100 - 4099 are the RK05 root image, blocks 4100 - 8099 are the /usr > RK05 image, and the blocks 8100 - 12099 are the /doc RK05 image." > > So what I did with that tape, for Bob Supnik's PDP-11 simulator, was > to run these commands under the host UNIX: > > % gunzip v6.tape.gz > % dd if=v6.tape of=v6.root.rk05 count=4000 skip=100 > % dd if=v6.tape of=v6.usr.rk05 count=4000 skip=4100 > % dd if=v6.tape of=v6.doc.rk05 count=4000 skip=8100 > > Then, I made a script file for the simulator: > > % cat > v6.script > attach rk0 V6.root.rk05 > attach rk1 V6.usr.rk05 > attach rk2 V6.doc.rk05 > boot rk0 > ^d > % > > ...and finally, I run the resulting system, thus: > > % pdp11 v6.script > PDP-11 simulator V2.3 > @unix > login: > > I may have had to modify something in the actual UNIX V6 system to > mount rk1 and rk2 properly -- I don't recall. You'll figure it out. > > Anyway, the system runs like a charm, and I've successfully rebuilt > the kernel from sources on it. Fun! > > Good luck! > > -tih > -- > Popularity is the hallmark of mediocrity. --Niles Crane, "Frasier" > Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id FAA20383 for pups-liszt; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 05:22:49 +1100 (EST) >From "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net> Fri Jan 22 04:26:54 1999 Received: from coffee.corliss.net (erin(a)coffee.gta-tech.com.121.7.12.in-addr.arpa [12.7.121.245] (may be forged)) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA20378 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 05:22:35 +1100 (EST) Received: from localhost (erin@localhost) by coffee.corliss.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA30600 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:26:54 -0800 Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:26:54 -0800 (PST) From: "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: here's a dumb question Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990121101819.30461A-100000(a)coffee.corliss.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk OK, so I was at my ISP the other day and after a talk with the owner I walked home with a bunch of pieces from a microvax II, which I used to completely pimp out my PDP-11/73... One of the new pieces is a hard drive, which allows me to write assembly code with the RSTS/E Macro Assembler, write them to the hard drive, and boot the system up in non-RSTSish ways... I'm new to PDP-11 assembly language, however, and I don't have a really complete manual... The general purpose registers are all 16 bits. Addresses stored in these registers can only point to the first 32K words of memory. My PDP has a 512K words of memory. The only reference I've seen to this problem was one sentence in one of my manuals that says the rest of the memory can be addressed through "memory management". When it says this, does it mean that there is a separate memory management unit that I have to control to flip between pages or banks of memory, or are there extended registers in the CPU itself that allow me to do this? I crashed the machine the other day and I noticed that the monitor listed some registers that started with M... Could that be what these are for? (The computer claims to have 22-bit addressing, BTW.) -- Erin Corliss

26 years, 3 months

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Intruiging bits in the nsys kernel

by norman＠nose.cita.utoronto.ca

Some answers to Warren's queries: mknod(II) first shows up in the Fourth Edition; the manual entry is dated 8/5/73. (That having been typed in the US, presumably it means 5 Aug 1973.) getgid(II) shows in the same manual, but with an older date: 3/15/72. This is also the edition in which the documentation for stat(II) first admits a group ID as well as a user ID. Both my hazy memory (made worse by lack of sleep right now) and the clues in the manual suggest that 3e/4e was the period when the system was rewritten in C; e.g. 4e is the first to show C interfaces in section II, complete with structs as well as pure byte-offset descriptions for objects like that filled in by stat, though the structs are nameless, presumably because there were no standard header files yet. Evidently the file system upheaval occurred in the same period. Reading the description of the 3e file system, I see it has been too long since I've read it. A summary: Blocks 0 and 1 are the super-block, consisting of size of free-storage bitmap the map itself size of free-i-node map the map itself Block 2 begins the i-list; data blocks follow. I-nodes 1-40 are reserved for special (device) files, and don't appear in the map. I-node 41 is the root. I-nodes have flags, a link count, a userid, a 16-bit size, creation and modification times, and eight block pointers. Flag bits inclode `allocated', `large file' (the pointers are to indirect blocks), read and write permissions for user and other, set-userid, a single `executable' flag, a `directory' flag (if clear, regular file). BUGS Two blocks are not enough to handle the i- and free- storage maps for an RP02 disk pack, which contains around 10 million words. The 4e file system is more or less that in the more-familiar V6 system: Block 0 reserved for boot block Block 1 is the super-block: file-system and i-list sizes, caches of free block and i-node numbers. The free-block list is now the familiar chain of blocks list free block numbers; the free-inode list is abolished because the i-nodes all have `allocated' flags anyway. Block 2 begins the i-list. I-node 1 is the root. I-nodes differ from 3e in having a group ID,a 24-bit size, access time instead of creation time; the `directory' flag becomes a two-bit `file type' flag; group permissions appear, there are three separate `executable' flags, and set-group-ID appears. No BUGS yet, perhaps because the code was new. Notice how history repeats: 4e replaced the free-block bitmap with a list, which made it simpler to cope with huge file systems but harder to allocate blocks in a simpler order; sundry replacement file systems in the early 1980s (Berkeley FFS, Weinberger's cheap hacks in V8) restored the bitmap, because it's easier to pick a good block when you can see all the blocks available, and because by then computers had enough memory and disks were big enough that a large bitmap wasn't a burden. An anecdote may be (barely) relevant here. I remember once in the late 1980s having a chat with Lee McMahon about group IDs, and how they didn't seem to have done quite what people wanted (hence the multiple-groups-per-process stuff in most current systems, and the special semantics for the set-group-id flag on directories, and various other features that have seemed to me never to quite hit the mark). Lee told me that when Ken first put group IDs into the system, he asked Ken what they were for. Ken allegedly shrugged and said `I dunno.' Norman Wilson Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id DAA15137 for pups-liszt; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 03:49:52 +1100 (EST) >From Mike Jenkins <mjenkins(a)carp.gbr.epa.gov> Thu Jan 21 02:49:27 1999 Received: from carp.gbr.epa.gov (carp.gbr.epa.gov [204.46.159.110]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA15131 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 03:49:37 +1100 (EST) Received: (from mjenkins@localhost) by carp.gbr.epa.gov (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA08238; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:49:27 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from mjenkins) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:49:27 -0600 (CST) From: Mike Jenkins <mjenkins(a)carp.gbr.epa.gov> Message-Id: <199901201649.KAA08238(a)carp.gbr.epa.gov> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Old pic of ken and dmr Cc: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199901200346.OAA06481(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS/Images/ken-and-den.jpg There is a smaller (26K) gif version on the following page: http://www.lucent.com/museum/1969unix.html The URL for the gif is: http://www.lucent.com/museum/images/1950/1969rt.gif Mike

26 years, 3 months

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Intruiging bits in the nsys kernel

by Warren Toomey

In article by Eric Fischer: > Congratulations on getting the nsys kernel running! I have > a couple of random comments on what you posted to the list: > > > Syscalls in `nsys' but not in V5: > > --------------------------------- > > 1, &quit, /* 26 = quit */ > > 1, &intr, /* 27 = intr */ > > 1, &cemt, /* 29 = cemt */ > > 1, &ilgins, /* 33 = ilgins */ > > 1, &fpe, /* 40 = fpe */ > > > > These deliver signals QUIT, INTR, EMT, INS or FPE > > to the pid in arg0. Any user can send these signals. > > I think this is backwards -- these system calls don't deliver > signals, they trap them. That is, they're the predecessors > of signal(), not kill(). Eric is quite correct, and I realised this after reading some comments on the V2 kernel. The nsys kernel also has a sig() system call which allows a process to trap an arbitrary signal. This is why the syscalls above were removed: there was a more general system call available. > > > Syscalls in V5 but not in `nsys': > > --------------------------------- > > 0, &getpid, /* 20 = getpid */ > > 1, &smdate, /* 30 = smdate */ > > 0, &nice, /* 34 = nice */ > > 0, &pipe, /* 42 = pipe */ !!! > > 4, &profil, /* 44 = prof */ > > This part seems really weird. Since it has fpe() but not nice() and > pipe(), that would have to mean it's somewhere intermediate between > v2 and v3, at least if the details in Doug McIlroy's "Research Unix > Reader" are all accurate. And I *really* don't understand why there > would be space reserved in the system call table for nice and pipe > but no implementations of the functions. > > The other weird part is that McIlroy says that smdate() was in v1 > through v3 but disappeared after that. I don't have the v5 kernel > source at hand right now, so I can't check up on that, but it's > strange that smdate should be missing here if this is an early v3. > > Actually, on further inspection this must be a *late* v3, since it > has mknod(), getgid(), and setgid(), which aren't supposed to have > shown up until v4. (No signal(), though, so it's not quite v4.) > That's still very odd that pipes would be left out, unless this > version was crunched to run in an especially small memory or something. > > And yet, v3 was supposed to have been released in February, 1973, and > this is earlier than that, so what are any v4 features doing there at > all? This just gets stranger and stranger... > eric I've had some chat with Dennis about this kernel, and how it fitted into development. The summary is: Ken tried to rewrite the assembly version of the kernel in B (or NB) in 1972, but gave up because structures didn't exist. Once B -> NB -> C and got structures, they tried again. Apparently, the `new' kernel (aka nsys) was developed in parallel with the `old' assembly kernel during early to mid-1973. Then, Dennis says: I'm pretty sure that we didn't adopt [the C version of the kernel] as the standard "production" system until about September 1973. It is very likely that the real "sys" was still in assembler. Pipes were probably added first to [the sys] version, given the evidence in "nsys." Dennis also says: During 1972, Ken finally puts pipes into Unix at McIlroy's urging. which would explain why there is a reserved syscall in `nsys', but no code as yet. I can't explain the existence of the mknod(), getgid(), and setgid() system calls. Norman and Bob Keys, I think one/both of you have got the old manuals, can you look through them and find out when these syscalls appeared? Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA12788 for pups-liszt; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:45:43 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jan 20 13:46:41 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA12783 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:45:35 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA06481 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:46:41 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901200346.OAA06481(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Old pic of ken and dmr To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:46:41 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk All, Patrick Regan, from Bell Labs, has sent in a 2M jpg of Ken and Dennis at the console of a PDP-11/20, around 1970. It's at: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS/Images/ken-and-den.jpg Ciao, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id CAA14984 for pups-liszt; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 02:45:02 +1100 (EST)

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James Lothian's /usr/src tarball

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Dear PUPS/TUHS members, I have just uploaded James Lothian's /usr/src tarball. You can find it in the Distributions/4bsd/thirdparty/UWisc4.3/James_Lothian_mods directory in the PUPS archive. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 440-449-0299 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu

26 years, 3 months

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University of Wisconsin's hacked 4.3BSD

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Dear PUPS/TUHS members, I have just uploaded the distribution images for the University of Winconsin's hacked 4.3BSD contributed by James Lothian. You can find them in the Distributions/4bsd/thirdparty/UWisc4.3 directory in the PUPS archive. I haven't uploaded James' own changed /usr/src yet, will probably do it later at night. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 440-449-0299 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA06758 for pups-liszt; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:07:24 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue Jan 19 12:08:22 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA06753 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:07:17 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA02324 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:08:22 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901190208.NAA02324(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Co-authors for Unix history paper? To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:08:22 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi all, I recently approached the IEEE Annals of Computing History journal to see if they would be interested in a paper on our efforts to find and preserve the old versions of Unix. They said yes, so I was wondering if anybody might want to be co-author. This is what I suggested: > I'd like to write an article which describes the efforts to find and > preserve historical material which is related to UNIX. This includes > finding tapes, reading them, decoding their formats etc. > > The article would also discuss the mechanisms available for running > these old UNIX systems: by using old hardware (and the difficulties > of maintaining such equipment), by using software emulators (and > possibly a discussion of what they provide). > > In other words, the actual history of UNIX and its influence would not > be covered, but the `archaeology' and preservation of artifacts from > the early days of UNIX would be. Given that there are people on the list who deal with old hardware, reading ancient tapes, etc., I thought they might like to add some input to the paper. I think the paper size is limited to around 25-30 pages, and has be formal in tone. If anybody has any suggestions as to what should go in (or even wants to write a section), then I would welcome some email! Cheers all, Warren P.S I'm giving a similar, but much more informal, paper at a local conference next month. The paper is at: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Seminars/Saving_Unix/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id TAA08164 for pups-liszt; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 19:33:12 +1100 (EST)

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Quasijarus Project Status Report

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Dear PUPS/TUHS members, I have just finished SCCS-reconstructing /usr/src/sys. Amazingly (and to CSRG's credit) the history has been preserved very well, and I have SCCS-recostructed almost every file in the kernel. There are only a few lost SCCS files. For the list see: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/sccs.html If you know anything about these files, please contact me ASAP! Also when I SCCS-reconstructed the /usr/src/sys/tahoe* subdirs, I had to take a step back. In the currently shipping release, 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0, these subdirs are identical to the ones on the 4.3BSD-Tahoe+HCX-9 tape. However, in the current master source tree they have been stepped back to the original 4.3BSD-Tahoe tape. For the explanation of this decision, see: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/arch.html Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Cellular phone: 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA22468 for pups-liszt; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 14:50:07 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Fri Jan 15 13:51:04 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA22456 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 14:49:58 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA21707 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 14:51:04 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901150351.OAA21707(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Success in Compiling Nsys Kernel To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 14:51:04 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk All, After several days of frustration and enlightenment, I have been able to compile and boot the `nsys' kernel source code on top of a 5th Edition RK05 root filesystem. The `nsys' kernel code corresponds to a time around the 3rd Edition of UNIX, i.e. Jan 1973. Dennis Ritchie donated this to the PUPS Archive a few days ago. I have placed the modifications to `nsys', plus some documentation, in the PUPS Archive in Distributions/research/Dennis_v3. Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA22804 for pups-liszt; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:19:14 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Fri Jan 15 15:20:12 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA22798 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:19:07 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA22113 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:20:12 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901150520.QAA22113(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Success in Compiling Nsys Kernel In-Reply-To: <01be4045$e3b28080$f2681081(a)collinse-home.tyson.com> from Efton Collins at "Jan 14, 1999 11: 8:35 pm" To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:20:12 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Efton Collins: > I wonder how long it has been since that version of the kernel ran? Could be > 25 years. Surely that will now be the earliest bootable kernel bar none. It > must give Ken and Dennis a smile. > > It is nice to see such interesting things continue to find their way into > the archive. With the help of so many of the pioneers PUPS is fulfilling its > charter very well indeed. > > E- Hi Efton. I had been keeping Dennis informed of my progress, and a few days ago he passed on some email from Bob Keys: [Dennis wrote:] Keys said (when I mentioned your tries) > Ohhh, neato! Let us keep fingers crossed, knock on wood 3 times, > cow-tow as appropriate, rub the rabbit's foot, throw salt before > the sumo ring, .... and anything else?.....(:+}}.... Dennis then went on to suggest some debugging ideas, when I was stuck: Astonishing. When booting it might be best to start with an init that just does open(something); open(something); write(1, "Hello\n", 6); It might even be appropriate to try first with just abort(); to see if /etc/init can be read, He must be out today, because I haven't got a reply back from my email indicating success. The `nsys' files were dated Jan 22, 1973. I definitely wanted to get the kernel working by Jan 22, 1999 so that it was only 25 years ago, not 26! I've also made some notes about the differences between `nsys' and V5, attached below. Thanks for your encouraging email. Cheers, Warren Differences in available syscalls between `nsys' and V5. ======================================================== Syscalls in `nsys' but not in V5: --------------------------------- 1, &quit, /* 26 = quit */ 1, &intr, /* 27 = intr */ 1, &cemt, /* 29 = cemt */ 1, &ilgins, /* 33 = ilgins */ 1, &fpe, /* 40 = fpe */ These deliver signals QUIT, INTR, EMT, INS or FPE to the pid in arg0. Any user can send these signals. 0, &prproc /* 63 = special */ For each of the 50 entries in the proc array, if there is a valid process entry there, print the array index and the following fields from the proc structure: p_stat, p_flag, p_pid, p_ppid, p_addr, p_size, p_wchan, p_textp Syscalls in V5 but not in `nsys': --------------------------------- 0, &getpid, /* 20 = getpid */ 1, &smdate, /* 30 = smdate */ 0, &nice, /* 34 = nice */ 0, &pipe, /* 42 = pipe */ !!! 4, &profil, /* 44 = prof */ Other Differences ----------------- /* 21 = mount */ has 2 arguments in `nsys', 3 in V5 /* 37 = kill */ has 0 arguments in `nsys', 1 in V5

26 years, 3 months

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Quasijarus Project WWW page update

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Dear PUPS/TUHS members, I have finally updated the Quasijarus Project WWW page so that now it's much more useful. You can find it at: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Cellular phone: 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu

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Re: 11/730 question

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Kirk McKusick <mckusick(a)McKusick.COM> wrote: > I applaud your desire not to break old 4.2/4.3 machines. > I would be very resistant to losing support for a popular > machine like the 11/750. However, I think that losing support > for the 11/730 would be acceptable. You are not the first person I hear this from, and I wouldn't completely disagree. However, it always pains me very much when a system really ought to run on a machine and has all the necessary ingredients, but fails because of some tiny nit. This is exactly the case here. The CPU is supported, the console storage device is supported, all bootstrap scripts are already written, even the IDC is supported, but the standalone programs refuse to load because of a ucode botch! Now, I did look more carefully, and the boot.730 program does fit into 12.5 KB after all in 4.2 and 4.3 (copy.730 fits in 4.2 but not in 4.3, and format.730 doesn't fit even in 4.2). So I guess it would be possible after all to massage up the Makefile and the ifdefing in the sources to make the 4.3-Quasijarus standalone system build a small boot.730. However, the objections to this approach are: 1. Instead of tidying up the standalone system, this would make it an even worse mess. 2. In future Quasijarus releases I plan to retire the current standalone drivers for U/Q and BI MSCP and make the standalone system call DEC's own VMB for I/O from/to all MSCP devices, making it possible to support MSCP on more than just U/Q and BI. However, this means that all big VAX users with MSCP disks will now need a copy of DEC's VMB.EXE in addition to UNIX's native boot code. It will also have to be a recent enough version, and I'm sure as hell that the version that came with 11/730 is too old. A newer version of VMB can be pulled out of almost any VMS or Ultrix distribution, but the one I have seen was 40 KB long. Thus even if I manage to make a boot.730 that fits within 12.5 KB, you would still need the 40 KB VMB.EXE if your disk is RAxx (the most common type), and this obviously makes boot.730 squeezing an exercise in futility. Resolution: I will pitch the *.730 programs and add a note to the documentation that installation on a 730 requires a ucode upgrade that fixes this botch. If someone asks me where to obtain one (or how to write one if it doesn't exist), I'll redirect them to this list, as I have no idea. :-) Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Cellular phone: 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu

26 years, 3 months

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11/730 question

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Dear PUPS/TUHS members, I wonder if any of you has some input on this issue. As I'm preparing for making my planned disk labeling improvements (making it possible to install the system on a fresh unlabeled disk in a more or less straightforward way), I first want to clean up some mess in the standalone system. One thing that annoys me in there is that for every standalone program that's supposed to go on the console media there are two versions built, a normal one and a "730" one. The comments say that 11/730 has a microcode botch that prevents it from loading programs larger than 12.5 KB, so supposedly all "730" standalone programs must be smaller than that. However, right now all standalone programs are around 30 KB, and the difference between the normal and "730" versions is only about 3 KB, even though the "730" versions do have the MASSBUS and BI code compiled out. Wondering if there is a way to make them smaller, I looked at older versions, and guess what, even in 4.2 the "730" versions are a little bit over the alleged 12.5 KB limit! That's right, 4.2BSD is the first release with 11/730 support, and its standalone programs are already over the alleged 11/730 microcode limit! This raises quite a few questions. First of all, does the 11/730 microcode really have this limitation, or is it just a hoax? If this limit does exist, when exactly does it apply? The BSD distribution TU58 cassette always used the full versions of the programs, not the "730" ones (the distribution cassette is also used for 750s), and yet apparently 730s could be bootstrapped from it. Maybe this limitation applies only to automatic bootstrap and not to manual loading? And if this is indeed a microcode botch, are there any patches available for it? I would appreciate it if someone here can provide some answers to these questions. I would really like to get rid of those "730" standalone programs, but I can't do it if this would break 11/730 support. (It's my responsibility as the 4.3BSD-* maintainer to only add features, but never break anything that works in plain 4.3 or 4.2.) Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Cellular phone: 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA13144 for pups-liszt; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:00:18 +1100 (EST) >From Kirk McKusick <mckusick(a)mckusick.com> Wed Jan 13 06:18:13 1999 Received: from flamingo.McKusick.COM (root(a)flamingo.mckusick.com [209.31.233.178]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA13139 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:00:10 +1100 (EST) Received: from flamingo.McKusick.COM (mckusick@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by flamingo.McKusick.COM (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA10534; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 12:18:13 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199901122018.MAA10534(a)flamingo.McKusick.COM> To: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov) Subject: Re: 11/730 question cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:18:35 EST." <199901122318.SAA04873(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 12:18:13 -0800 From: Kirk McKusick <mckusick(a)mckusick.com> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk I applaud your desire not to break old 4.2/4.3 machines. I would be very resistant to losing support for a popular machine like the 11/750. However, I think that losing support for the 11/730 would be acceptable. It was a very feeble processor (0.3 of a 780) and very few of them were ever sold. We had only one at Berkeley (for porting purposes), and it was so slow that we were not even able to pawn it off on the undergrad CS organization when we were done with it. Kirk Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA13915 for pups-liszt; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 15:15:54 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 3 months

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Confirming machine hardware.

by BeLFrY

G'day all... I have a DEC-PRO/350. I believe it is a PDP8. Is there any way of confirming this? Thanks. Michael. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id BAA11300 for pups-liszt; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 01:27:45 +1100 (EST) >From "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> Wed Jan 13 00:26:39 1999 Received: from biz1.mailsrvcs.net (biz1.gte.net [207.115.153.50]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA11295 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 01:27:36 +1100 (EST) Received: from p2350 ([208.254.195.48]) by biz1.mailsrvcs.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-40549L5000S0) with ESMTP id AAA22519; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 08:27:30 -0600 From: "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> To: "BeLFrY" <belfry(a)nsw.bigpond.net.au>, "\"\\\"PUPs\\\" PDP11 Unix Preservation group\"" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Confirming machine hardware. Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 07:26:39 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19990112142726.AAA22519@p2350> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi Michael, ---------- > From: BeLFrY <belfry(a)nsw.bigpond.net.au> > To: "\"PUPs\" PDP11 Unix Preservation group" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> > Subject: Confirming machine hardware. > Date: Monday, January 11, 1999 11:34 PM > I have a DEC-PRO/350. which is nice ;-)) > I believe it is a PDP8. > Is there any way of confirming this? Sorry, there is no way to confirm this ;-)) (sorry, couldn't resist) the nearest "brother" of the pro/350 would be the pdp11/23, pdp11//23+ or pdp11/24, because the use the same CPU. (DCF11) hope it helps, emanuel Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA12405 for pups-liszt; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 06:43:32 +1100 (EST) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Wed Jan 13 05:43:04 1999 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA12400 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 06:43:22 +1100 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA09742; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 20:43:06 +0100 Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 20:43:04 +0100 (MET) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: BeLFrY <belfry(a)nsw.bigpond.net.au> cc: "\"\\\"PUPs\\\" PDP11 Unix Preservation group\"" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Confirming machine hardware. In-Reply-To: <369AECFA.87A55C4(a)nsw.bigpond.net.au> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.990112204229.9487A-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, BeLFrY wrote: > G'day all... Hi there. > I have a DEC-PRO/350. > > I believe it is a PDP8. > > Is there any way of confirming this? No. However I can confirm that it is a pdp-11. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

26 years, 3 months

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Re: EDU MAGAZINE

by Warren Toomey

In article by Lawrence Reinish: > I am looking for several issues of 'EDU MAGAZINE' from mid-1975 to 1976. > It was published by Digital Equipment Corporation. Any assistance would be > greatly appreciated. > > Lawrence Reinish Lawrence, I don't have any copies. I'll forward this on to some people who might be able to help you. Cheers, Warren

26 years, 3 months

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Earliest UNIX source!

by Warren Toomey

All, Dennis has just passed to me the source to a UNIX kernel around the 3rd Edition (i.e around 1973). He says this is the oldest machine-readable UNIX source he has. I've just placed it in the PUPS archive at: Distributions/research/Dennis_v3 Cheers, Warren

26 years, 3 months

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My mail screw-up

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

Hello everyone, Sorry for being away from the list lately, the machine I was doing my E-mail on (harrier.Uznet.NET) has been down for several days, and I have to assume that it's down forever. I have moved my mail back to my old address <mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu>. If any of you have sent any mail to msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET in the past several days, please resend it to mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu, since harrier.Uznet.NET is probably down forever and everything in my mailbox is lost. (I have recovered the missed pups mail via the archive.) Sorry for this screw-up, but it's not my fault, I'm not that machine's admin. (The admin is Stacy Minkin, whom I can't contact because his address is also obviously on that machine.) Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Cellular phone: 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA16866 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 14:39:00 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Jan 7 13:39:39 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA16861 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 14:38:52 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA27637 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 14:39:39 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901070339.OAA27637(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: V8's roots? (fwd) To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 14:39:39 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk ----- Forwarded message from dmr ----- I also got mail from Norman Wilson today about the discussion. This is mainly to confirm and fill out details of Wilson's account. The Eighth Edition system started with (I believe) BSD 4.1c and the work was done on VAX 11/750s -- our group did not get a 780 until a while later. Most of the operating system superstructure of BSD was retained (in particular no one (even the indefatigable Norman) wanted to get much into the paging code. Norman is also right that the competitor was John Reiser's (and Tom London's) 32V descendant from another group at the Labs. In structure this system had a lot to offer (in particular the buffer cache and the page pool were unified, but it was clear that their work was not being supported by their own management. It was used for a while on our first 750 and also our first 11/780 ("alice", a name that lives in netnews fame preceding the reach of Dejanews). The big change leading to V8 was the scooping-out and replacement of the character-device and networking part by the streams mechanism. Later, Peter Weinberger added the file-system switch that enabled remote file systems and prescient things ideas like /proc). Weinberger, as Norman said, also did a simple-minded FFS. The TCP/IP stack wasn't very important to us then and it has a mixed and murky history. Much of it came from early CSRG work, but it was converted to a streams approach by Robert Morris and subsequently fiddled over a lot. Likewise, as Norman said, the applications (/bin and whatnot) were somewhat of a mixture. Many were the locally-done versions, some were taken from BSD in some incarnation, some from System V. Dennis ----- End of forwarded message from dmr -----

26 years, 3 months

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Re: V8's roots?

by norman＠nose.cita.utoronto.ca

The operating system kernel on the V8 distribution tape (which was sent to less than a dozen places, under special license) was indeed descended from one of the 4.1 BSD releases; I have a vague memory that it was 4.1a, but I wasn't there at the time, and don't know just what was in each of the intermediate 4.1s. As I understand the history (again, I wasn't there when this part happened), when the Computing Science Research Center decided to move its main computing world to VAX in the early 1980s, they wanted a reasonably stable, reasonably fast system with paging, and 4.1x (for whatever value of x it was) seemed the best available choice. The only real competitor was the paging descendant of 32/V done by John Reiser (who did the original 32/V port to the VAX, I believe), but that system seemed to have lost the evolutionary battle and was judged a bad bet. It may help to identify the kernel in question to know that it probably didn't have sockets yet, and certainly didn't have FFS. The 4.1x kernel was just used as a base, however. By the time I arrived at the Center in late 1984, a good bit had been added and replaced: the V7-heritage terminal IO subsystem had been kicked out in favour of Dennis Ritchie's stream I/O system; Peter Weinberger's simple disk file system speedups (4KB blocks and a bitmapped free list, nothing more) and network file system code and the corresponding file system switch had been added; Tom Killian's process file system had appeared. The commands in /bin and /usr/bin and whatnot had less obvious BSD influence, and I suspect they were mostly carried over from the system used internally on the PDP11s when the VAXes first arrived. Norman Wilson (six years in New Jersey drove me out of the country) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA15731 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:29:31 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 3 months

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Twist of Fate...

by Erin W. Corliss

So get this -- Matt Kjaer, a friend of a friend of mine and the person who originally got me interested in PDP's, works at the University of Oregon computing center. He claims that if he can dig it up, the University of Oregon has an original Unix license for PDP-11's. I'm not sure what version of Unix it is or if it's even from SCO, but assuming it is, where do we fax/mail/deliver/etc a copy of it to get access to the legendary protected FTP directory with the source codes? Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA15372 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:19:53 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Jan 7 08:20:25 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA15367 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:19:45 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA19617; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:20:25 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901062220.JAA19617(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Twist of Fate... In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990106125635.20195A-100000(a)coffee.corliss.net> from "Erin W. Corliss" at "Jan 6, 1999 1: 6:48 pm" To: erin(a)coffee.corliss.net (Erin W. Corliss) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:20:25 +1100 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Erin W. Corliss: > > So get this -- Matt Kjaer, a friend of a friend of mine and the person who > originally got me interested in PDP's, works at the University of Oregon > computing center. He claims that if he can dig it up, the University of > Oregon has an original Unix license for PDP-11's. I'm not sure what > version of Unix it is or if it's even from SCO, but assuming it is, where > do we fax/mail/deliver/etc a copy of it to get access to the legendary > protected FTP directory with the source codes? Fax a copy to me (the pages giving the license owner, the license number, the list of operating systems covered, the list of CPUs covered, and the signatures), and then get Matt to email me! As per usual, I need to send back access details securely. A fax number or a means of obtaining a PGP key will allow me to do this. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA15403 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:26:20 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Jan 7 08:26:54 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA15398 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:26:12 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA19685; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:26:54 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901062226.JAA19685(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Twist of Fate... In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990106142501.20945A-100000(a)coffee.corliss.net> from "Erin W. Corliss" at "Jan 6, 1999 2:26:32 pm" To: erin(a)coffee.corliss.net (Erin W. Corliss) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:26:54 +1100 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Erin W. Corliss: > On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, Warren Toomey wrote: > > > Fax a copy to me (the pages giving the license owner, the license number, > > the list of operating systems covered, the list of CPUs covered, and the > > signatures), and then get Matt to email me! > > What's your fax number? Damn, I knew I'd forget to put that in! Warren: +61 2 6268 8581 Ciao, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA15593 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:00:00 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Jan 7 09:00:40 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA15588 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:59:53 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA19815 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:00:40 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901062300.KAA19815(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Bob Manners: new email addr? To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:00:40 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Sorry to bother the list. Mail to Bob Manners rjm(a)swift.eng.ox.ac.uk is bouncing, and I know he'd like to stay on the PUPS list. Has anybody got a new address for him? Thanks, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA15622 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:04:51 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 3 months

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Re: OK I got this here VAXen thingie.... what is it?

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

"User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> wrote: > Machine: VAXstation 3500, no consoles or external boxes, only the tower. Will run my latest OS release, 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0, like a charm. > Tape Drive: TK70 Great! 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 bootstraps from TK70s beaufifully. > Hard Drive: RA70 Also great! You are incredibly lucky here that 4.3BSD-* already knows about RA70 and thus you can install 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 on this disk directly even when it's unlabeled. If you had third-party MSCP disks, you would have to install Ultrix first to label the disk. This is due to 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0's inability to install on unknown unlabeled disks. This limitation will be lifted in the next Quasijarus release, which I'm already working on. > 1 KA650 -BA A very nice CPU, rated at 2.8 VUPs. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 fully supports it (better than CSRG's Tahoe and Reno releases). KA650 support is present in the GENERIC kernel, so it will Just Boot (tm). The "-BA" part means that it has bit 1 set in the second longword of the EPROM, causing DEC proprietary OSes to treat it as a "single-user" machine. Research OSes like 4.3BSD-* ignore this bit. But if you do want to convert your machine to "multiuser" status, clear bit 1, set bit 0, and recalculate the checksum (you'll need an EPROM blaster). This will turn your CPU into a KA650-AA. You also have the option of upgrading this CPU to a KA655 (3.8 VUPs) or KA660 (5 VUPs). KA655 is also fully supported by 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0, and KA660 support is coming soon (100% guarrantee that I'll get it before NetBSD does). > 2 MS650 -AA > 3 MS650 -AA -AA is a 8 MB board, so you have a total of 16 MB of RAM. Note, though, that -AAs are old boards, and they work only with KA650 and KA640. If you decide to upgrade to KA655 or KA660, you'll need either DEC MS650-Bx or third-party MS650-compatible memory. These work with all KA650 series CPUs. > 4 DELQA -SA Ethernet. Fully supported by Berkeley UNIX since 4.3BSD. > 5 VCB02 > 6 VCB02 > 7 VCB02 QDSS video. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 should support this (untested), but since you don't have a VAXstation monitor or keyboard anyway, pull these three boards out and move everything else to the right (you can't leave empty Q-bus slots in the middle). > 8 CXY08 8-line asynchronous multiplexer (8-port serial interface). Not sure if 4.3BSD-* has a driver for it (I haven't touched this area and left it as it was in CSRG's Tahoe release). It has some drivers for DEC asynchronous multiplexers, but DEC made a lot of different ones, and I don't know where does CXY08 stand with respect to everything else DEC has produced. Ultrix supports it for sure, though. > 9 TQK70 Controller for TK70. > 10 KDA50 > 11 KDA50 Controller for RA70 (or any other SDI disks you may want to connect). > Any suggestions are appreciated. Hmm, it looks like you have already been brainwashed by one NutBSDist. Please don't listen to him. Running NetBSD is conduct unbecoming a PUPS/TUHS member. NetBSD is the worst OS a VAX can run. Its code is a total mess, and its "developers" are incompetent morons (I know, I've been on their list for 6 months or so). They have no clue as to how to write VAX OSes, and their list of supported hardware is as skinny as their brains. NetBSD is extremely flaky, and it's extremely bloated. My authoritative advice to you is to run 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0, my latest release made two weeks ago (I'm the maintainer of 4.3BSD-*). It comes with 100% complete source code, and, picture this, the entire system with all binaries _and full sources_ fits in 75 MB! It's absolutely True and Pure UNIX, nothing can be better. There is also Ultrix. No matter how much those losers insult it, it's one of the best OSes in the Universe, second only to 4.3BSD-Quasijarus. Despite what some incompetent morons may say, it is not a "4.2/4.3 mix", it's 100% 4.3. True, it has been interDIGITated by DEC, which makes it a little impure and bloated (and binary-only), but otherwise it's OK. It is bigger than a binary-only 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 installation, but certainly much smaller than NutBSD. As for the DEC additions, just ignore them! Just because Ultrix optionally supports Sun YP, Hesiod, and other crap doesn't mean that you have to use it! In fact, it's already disabled by default! Just don't enable it, that's all! When /etc/svc.conf selects "local,bind" for hosts and "local" for everything else, Ultrix becomes indistinguishable from 4.3BSD! I can bet that if I show you two VAXen, one running 4.3BSD and the other running Ultrix, you won't be able to tell easily which is which. Also some Ultrix-specific features are really nice. Take NFS, for example. I will certainly add NFS to 4.3BSD-Quasijarus at some point. Also don't forget that Ultrix runs on almost every VAX ever made. I often run Ultrix instead of 4.3BSD-* when the latter doesn't run on the hardware in question. In fact, this is what Ultrix is best for: a fallback OS to replace 4.3BSD-* when it doesn't support the hardware. Of course 4.3BSD-Quasijarus is the best OS in the Universe, and you should always run it whenever possible, but when you can't Ultrix is a very good fallback because it's so close. But since you have a KA650, you don't have to worry about this, as 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 will run on it like a charm. Best of luck with it. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 is in the PUPS archive in the Distributions/4bsd/43quasi0.vax directory. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Cellular phone: 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA14819 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 06:35:05 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 3 months

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Re: OK I got this here VAXen thingie.... what is it?

by Johnny Billquist

On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote: > OK, Dummy here stuck his foot in his choppers an' won the bid on that > VAXen for the grand total of eleven buckeroos de realme. What can I > run with it? It was just too much fun to pass up, and it drew too many > chuckles from the PC crowd in the surplus warehouse....(:+}}.... Smile. It's a decent machine. > Machine: VAXstation 3500, no consoles or external boxes, only the tower. > > Tape Drive: TK70 > > Hard Drive: RA70 > > Boards: > > SLOT BOARD NUMBER DESCRIPTION > ---- ------------ ---------------------------------------------- > 1 KA650 -BA CPU > 2 MS650 -AA > 3 MS650 -AA Both are memory boards. Don't know for sure how much. 8 or 16 megs apiece, I'd guess. > 4 DELQA -SA Ethernet. > 5 VCB02 > 6 VCB02 > 7 VCB02 Sounds like a graphic subsystem. > 8 CXY08 Plotter interface? > 9 TQK70 Controller for the TK70 tape drive. > 10 KDA50 > 11 KDA50 Controller for the RA70 disk. (The controller can have up to four disks attached). > What boards are needed to bring up the machine minimally and test it out? CPU and memory minimum. I'd recommend to remove the VCB02 and CXY08, since you don't have the peripherials. Move all other cards up to delete the empty space in the middle. > How should one fire it up the first time, without blowing it up? Turn on the power. > I am working with the original owner of the beast to see if he may have > a box of odd manuals and hopefully tapes still in storage somewhere. > If not, I am at ground zero with it. It's a pretty easy machine to play around with. > I am assuming it will have to be run headless, via an old VT-52ish > Zenith terminal I have, or a Kermit with VT-100 emulation. I don't > have the main color monitor for it, or the mouse and keyboard. > What is the pinout of the silly MMJ connector on the CPU? > Will a plain terminal work OK? Plain terminal will do. In fact, it *expexts* to get a plain terminal. The MMJ is a DEC thingie. The electrical levels are compatible with RS-232. You can get a cable from DEC, or perhaps some other place. I also know that the pinouts have been published on the net from tim to time. > What kinds of printer can be hooked up to it, via what protocols? Protocols? That's software! As for electrically connecting it, that depends on what card you put in the machine! Paralell or serial, you choose! > What is the best way to network it into my local home ethernet coax? I assume you have 10Base2, so get an AUI-cable to extend the connection from the DELQA to outside the box, get a 10Base2-transciever, and you're set. For other types of carriers, get the proper transciever! :-) > Any suggestions are appreciated. Yes. Boot NetBSD on it. Get 1.3.2, which works pretty fine on the machine. You can netboot it to get started. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id IAA11143 for pups-liszt; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 08:54:54 +1100 (EST) >From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Wed Jan 6 07:47:55 1999 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA11138 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 08:54:44 +1100 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA28061; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:47:55 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199901052147.QAA28061(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: OK I got this here VAXen thingie.... what is it? In-Reply-To: <Pine.VUL.3.93.990105205913.2044A-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> from Johnny Billquist at "Jan 5, 99 09:07:11 pm" To: bqt(a)Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:47:55 -0500 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au, bsdbob(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote: > > > OK, Dummy here stuck his foot in his choppers an' won the bid on that > > VAXen for the grand total of eleven buckeroos de realme. What can I > > run with it? It was just too much fun to pass up, and it drew too many > > chuckles from the PC crowd in the surplus warehouse....(:+}}.... > > Smile. It's a decent machine. I am beginning to think my eleven buckeroos de realme were well spent! > > Hard Drive: RA70 What different SDI(?) drives will fit and work in the VAXstation, for our play purposes. Someone mentioned a 1 gig and a 2 gig size that I might want to use instead of the RA70, although beggars like me can't be too choosy. A pair of RA70's would make a fair minimal box. A pair of 2 gig drives would make a very comfy box to use as the main home server. > > What boards are needed to bring up the machine minimally and test it out? > > CPU and memory minimum. > I'd recommend to remove the VCB02 and CXY08, since you don't have the > peripherials. Move all other cards up to delete the empty space in the > middle. OK. What should cover the blank space in the rack, or just leave it open? Any funky jumpers to set like on Sun VME backplanes? > > How should one fire it up the first time, without blowing it up? > > Turn on the power. I was thinking about boot sequences for roms or whatever, or anything strange in the callup from a dumb terminal. Someone mentioned setting a break switch and a baud rate dial on the CPU? > > I am working with the original owner of the beast to see if he may have > > a box of odd manuals and hopefully tapes still in storage somewhere. > > If not, I am at ground zero with it. > > It's a pretty easy machine to play around with. I did get a box from the previous owner a few minutes ago, and there were a dozen or so TK50 tapes that I need to sort out what is on them. He though they were Ultrix and VMS tapes. If they turn out to be unknowns, I can probably use them to get someone to write a good boot tape for a BSD flavor, perhaps. If they are, indeed Ultrix, would that be better or worse than a 4.3BSD or NetBSD or such? I have never run Ultrix, but I am comfy with 4.3BSD or NetBSD kinds of things, as long as they don't get too strange. I don't think I would like a VMS. > Plain terminal will do. In fact, it *expexts* to get a plain terminal. > The MMJ is a DEC thingie. The electrical levels are compatible with > RS-232. You can get a cable from DEC, or perhaps some other place. I also > know that the pinouts have been published on the net from tim to time. Also, the guy gave me a cable with a DEC female DB25 adapter, a MMJ end, an RJ11 end, and a plain RS232 DB25 male adapter. Would that be usable for a console or is that some kind of printer cable? He thought it was plain serial, but was not sure. > > What kinds of printer can be hooked up to it, via what protocols? > > Protocols? That's software! > As for electrically connecting it, that depends on what card you put in > the machine! Paralell or serial, you choose! Well, I prefer serial, no-handshake printer lines on my old junkque. That is a carryover from my early CP/M days where one never knew which RS232 cable to use, and I got quickly in the habit of 3-wiring everything, instead. Software or non-shake protocol always worked, if 4/5, 4/8/20 were jumpered on each end. One of my friends said that DEC did some strange protocols on serial lines, and I was just checking for sure. > > What is the best way to network it into my local home ethernet coax? > > I assume you have 10Base2, so get an AUI-cable to extend the connection > from the DELQA to outside the box, get a 10Base2-transciever, and you're > set. For other types of carriers, get the proper transciever! :-) I must rub the right rabbit's food today. Another friend gave me a DEC dongle box and cable that is an AUI to BNC transceiver (DECSTA?). That is a good find, or the right find, perhaps? > > Any suggestions are appreciated. > > Yes. Boot NetBSD on it. Get 1.3.2, which works pretty fine on the machine. > You can netboot it to get started. My problem is getting it up to a network. My home net is mostly down or only running between whichever two boxes I can get up at the same time. Most are AIX/4.3BSD IBM RT-PC boxes or FreeBSD/AIX x86 boxes. Proper netbooting on them is a bit wierd. I might could drag it into the office and netboot off the archives somewhere. That may be the easiest thing to do, practically. Most of the boxes I prefer to load via tape, if possible for a lowest common denominator boot when all else may fail. That way, everything is covered. What needs to be cleaned out around the cabinetry or power supplies or backplane? I don't want to get dustbunny fireballs rolling out of it, if possible. Is there anything I should look out for in preflighting the beast, over the usual blow it out with a vacuum cleaner or air hose? > Johnny Anyway, toy VAXuser getting there little by little.....(:+}}.... Maybe I will get the itch to fire it up tonight. Now to feed the Reddy Kilowatt meter man. I hear these VAXen things make him very happy. Bob Keys Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA11273 for pups-liszt; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 09:33:18 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jan 6 08:33:57 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA11268 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 09:33:09 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA12801 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 09:33:57 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901052233.JAA12801(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: V8's roots? To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 09:33:57 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Just got this email from a friend... ----- Forwarded message from David Blackman ----- Just had a quick look at [Warren's Unix family tree diagram] You list Research V8 as successor to V7, which is true i guess, but i've seen several sources say most of the kernel was derived from a BSD version, probably 4.1. ----- End of forwarded message from David Blackman ----- Can anybody confirm or deny this? I suppose I should ask Dennis. Ta, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA11605 for pups-liszt; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 11:36:31 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jan 6 10:37:10 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA11600 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 11:36:23 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA15385 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 11:37:10 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901060037.LAA15385(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Apout: new version + freeze To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 11:37:10 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk All, I've put yet a new version of the Apout PDP-11 a.out simulator in ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/pub/PDP-11/Sims/Apout and now I'm going to stop working on it for a while. This means you won't get these annoying emails any more :-) Current version is apout2.2alpha6. The latest changes are: + Runs 2.11BSD binaries, including overlay binaries + Runs shell scripts + Can exec native binaries as well as PDP-11 a.out binaries + Has floating point operations + Still emulates V5/V6/V7 UNIX binaries + On a Pentium Pro 350MHz, compiles the 2.11BSD GENERIC kernel in 4 minutes 16 seconds. + Now uses u_int* throughout + Finally, a man page exists Enjoy! Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA12041 for pups-liszt; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 13:56:09 +1100 (EST) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Wed Jan 6 12:54:31 1999 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA12035 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 13:55:56 +1100 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id DAA12954; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 03:54:33 +0100 Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 03:54:31 +0100 (MET) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au, bsdbob(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: OK I got this here VAXen thingie.... what is it? In-Reply-To: <199901052147.QAA28061(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.990106033734.12114A-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote: > I am beginning to think my eleven buckeroos de realme were well spent! I'd say so. > What different SDI(?) drives will fit and work in the VAXstation, for our > play purposes. Someone mentioned a 1 gig and a 2 gig size that I might > want to use instead of the RA70, although beggars like me can't be too > choosy. A pair of RA70's would make a fair minimal box. A pair of > 2 gig drives would make a very comfy box to use as the main home server. Fit as in physically fit. The RA7x series will fit. However, only the RA70 as far as I know have a switch pack for setting unit numbers. Any other type of drive will default to unit zero unless you have a proper front panel. All RA-drives will work however. Me I have one RA72 in the box, two RA90 and one RA92 lying on the floor. :-) Also remember that VAX binaries are *smaller* than what you might be used to see. This is a CISC. > OK. What should cover the blank space in the rack, or just leave it open? If you have blank covers, put them there. It improves the air flow in the box. But you should be able to run it as is. > Any funky jumpers to set like on Sun VME backplanes? Nope. Just keep al the cards next to each other. > > > How should one fire it up the first time, without blowing it up? > > > > Turn on the power. > > I was thinking about boot sequences for roms or whatever, or anything > strange in the callup from a dumb terminal. Someone mentioned setting > a break switch and a baud rate dial on the CPU? Ok. To boot the machine, try "B <device>", where disks are DUAx, tape is MUA0 and ethernet XNA0 (I think...) If you open up the front you'll notice that the CPU fron panel cover has, in addition to the connector for the console, a small display, a three position dial switch and a two-position switch. If you look at the back of the panel, you have thumbweel. The thumbweel sets the baudrate for the console. There should be a sticker beside it with the key. The three-position switch selects power-up action. Language menu, boot or eternal selftest. The two-position switch selects whether booting to console prompt, or booting all the way with OS. There are a number of commands you can give at the ">>>" prompt. Useful is (among others) "SHOW ETHERNET" which tells your ethernet address. > I did get a box from the previous owner a few minutes ago, and there > were a dozen or so TK50 tapes that I need to sort out what is on them. Try booting them. > He though they were Ultrix and VMS tapes. If they turn out to be > unknowns, I can probably use them to get someone to write a good > boot tape for a BSD flavor, perhaps. If they are, indeed Ultrix, > would that be better or worse than a 4.3BSD or NetBSD or such? Ultrix is definitely not something you want to run. It's okay to have around, but it's not that much fun. It's more or less a mix between 4.2 and 4.3. > I have never run Ultrix, but I am comfy with 4.3BSD or NetBSD kinds > of things, as long as they don't get too strange. I don't think I > would like a VMS. VMS is nice. :-) > > Plain terminal will do. In fact, it *expexts* to get a plain terminal. > > The MMJ is a DEC thingie. The electrical levels are compatible with > > RS-232. You can get a cable from DEC, or perhaps some other place. I also > > know that the pinouts have been published on the net from tim to time. > > Also, the guy gave me a cable with a DEC female DB25 adapter, a MMJ end, > an RJ11 end, and a plain RS232 DB25 male adapter. Would that be usable > for a console or is that some kind of printer cable? He thought it was > plain serial, but was not sure. The cable should be usable. If you have a VT220 or newer, the cable can be used without any adapter at all. > > > What kinds of printer can be hooked up to it, via what protocols? > > > > Protocols? That's software! > > As for electrically connecting it, that depends on what card you put in > > the machine! Paralell or serial, you choose! > > Well, I prefer serial, no-handshake printer lines on my old junkque. Ah. Intelligent opinion. Since the CXY08 is a serial interface, that's your answer. (If the CXY08 has a driver for the OS of your choise.) > That is a carryover from my early CP/M days where one never knew > which RS232 cable to use, and I got quickly in the habit of 3-wiring > everything, instead. Software or non-shake protocol always worked, > if 4/5, 4/8/20 were jumpered on each end. One of my friends said that > DEC did some strange protocols on serial lines, and I was just checking > for sure. DEC has very seldom done strange things. It's rather the other way around... Most likely your friend might have heard of DECs refusal to use modem signals for handshake, since neither a computer, nor a printer is a modem. (And by the book they are right, it's just that most other people like to violate this fact. :-) DEC always uses XON/XOFF. > > > What is the best way to network it into my local home ethernet coax? > > > > I assume you have 10Base2, so get an AUI-cable to extend the connection > > from the DELQA to outside the box, get a 10Base2-transciever, and you're > > set. For other types of carriers, get the proper transciever! :-) > > I must rub the right rabbit's food today. Another friend gave me a DEC dongle > box and cable that is an AUI to BNC transceiver (DECSTA?). That is a good > find, or the right find, perhaps? Probably. I don't know offhand what the DEC transciever is called, but I doubt there are any others with the right kind of looking connectors. > > > Any suggestions are appreciated. > > > > Yes. Boot NetBSD on it. Get 1.3.2, which works pretty fine on the machine. > > You can netboot it to get started. > > My problem is getting it up to a network. My home net is mostly down > or only running between whichever two boxes I can get up at the same time. > Most are AIX/4.3BSD IBM RT-PC boxes or FreeBSD/AIX x86 boxes. Proper > netbooting on them is a bit wierd. Well, it isn't *them* you are about to netboot, but the VAX. :-) > I might could drag it into the office and netboot off the archives somewhere. > That may be the easiest thing to do, practically. Maybe. > Most of the boxes I prefer to load via tape, if possible for a lowest common > denominator boot when all else may fail. That way, everything is covered. Well, if you have VMS or Ultrix, you can write out tapes... > What needs to be cleaned out around the cabinetry or power supplies or > backplane? I don't want to get dustbunny fireballs rolling out of it, > if possible. Is there anything I should look out for in preflighting > the beast, over the usual blow it out with a vacuum cleaner or air hose? Getting the dust out is always a Good Thing (tm). If you are a hardware junkie, you'll start by disassembling the power supply into small bits and check it out througly before reassembling it and allowing it to feed the system. Me, I'd just power the thing on. :-) > Anyway, toy VAXuser getting there little by little.....(:+}}.... > Maybe I will get the itch to fire it up tonight. Now to feed the > Reddy Kilowatt meter man. I hear these VAXen things make him very > happy. Nah. A 3500 is a small thing. Try an 8650 instead. :-) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA12768 for pups-liszt; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:37:38 +1100 (EST) >From Kirk McKusick <mckusick(a)mckusick.com> Wed Jan 6 15:46:58 1999 Received: from flamingo.McKusick.COM (flamingo.mckusick.com [209.31.233.178]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA12763 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:37:15 +1100 (EST) Received: from flamingo.McKusick.COM (mckusick@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by flamingo.McKusick.COM (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA26800; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 21:47:34 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199901060547.VAA26800(a)flamingo.McKusick.COM> To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: V8's roots? cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 06 Jan 1999 09:33:57 +1100." <199901052233.JAA12801(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 21:46:58 -0800 From: Kirk McKusick <mckusick(a)mckusick.com> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: V8's roots? To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 09:33:57 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Just got this email from a friend... ----- Forwarded message from David Blackman ----- Just had a quick look at [Warren's Unix family tree diagram] You list Research V8 as successor to V7, which is true i guess, but i've seen several sources say most of the kernel was derived from a BSD version, probably 4.1. ----- End of forwarded message from David Blackman ----- Can anybody confirm or deny this? I suppose I should ask Dennis. Ta, Warren There was a big infusion of 4.1BSD into the research group system between V7 and V8. Dennis could give you more details. ~Kirk Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id FAA14605 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 05:14:10 +1100 (EST) >From Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> Thu Jan 7 04:07:15 1999 Received: from mpl.ucsd.edu (chiton.ucsd.edu [192.135.238.128]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA14600 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 05:14:01 +1100 (EST) Received: (from cdl@localhost) by mpl.ucsd.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id KAA24704; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 10:07:15 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 10:07:15 -0800 (PST) From: Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> Message-Id: <199901061807.KAA24704(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> To: bqt(a)Update.UU.SE, rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: OK I got this here VAXen thingie.... what is it? Cc: bsdbob(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 21:07:11 +0100 (MET) > From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> > On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote: > > > OK, Dummy here stuck his foot in his choppers an' won the bid on that > > VAXen for the grand total of eleven buckeroos de realme. What can I > > run with it? It was just too much fun to pass up, and it drew too many > > chuckles from the PC crowd in the surplus warehouse....(:+}}.... > > I assume you have 10Base2, so get an AUI-cable to extend the connection > from the DELQA to outside the box, get a 10Base2-transciever, and you're > set. For other types of carriers, get the proper transciever! :-) For short runs of AUI cable (a couple of feet) you can cheat by using crimp-on IDC connectors and flat ribbon cable. Frequently that is more available than real AUI cables. carl carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego clowenstein(a)ucsd.edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA14757 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 06:27:50 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 3 months

1
0
0 0

Why is csh `restricted'?

by Warren Toomey

I've got a questions that's been niggling me, and perhaps someone might be able to answer it. The csh was first released in 2bsd, and came with the copyright notice: /* Copyright (c) 1979 Regents of the University of California */ /* * C Shell * * Bill Joy, UC Berkeley * October, 1978 */ But my memory tells me that, back in the late 80s, people were saying that the sources to csh were not freely available. And in the tcsh FAQ (taken from tcsh version 6.00), I see: 4. Where can I get csh sources? Csh sources are not public domain. If you do not have an AT&T V3.2 source licence or better, you are stuck. So, can anybody tell me if, when and how did the sources to csh become restricted, or if not, how this urban legend arose?? Many thanks in advance! Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA08168 for pups-liszt; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:26:55 +1100 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Tue Jan 5 15:26:35 1999 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA08163 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:26:46 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id VAA19409; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:26:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:26:35 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199901050526.VAA19409(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Why is csh `restricted'? Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Warren - > The csh was first released in 2bsd, and came with the copyright notice: > /* Copyright (c) 1979 Regents of the University of California */ > /* > * C Shell > * > * Bill Joy, UC Berkeley > * October, 1978 > */ > Csh sources are not public domain. If you do not have an AT&T V3.2 > source licence or better, you are stuck. > > So, can anybody tell me if, when and how did the sources to csh become > restricted, or if not, how this urban legend arose?? It is not that they "became" restricted. They always "were" restricted because they were derived from the original Bell Labs (later AT&T) sources (code borrowed from /bin/sh). All UNIX sources were, up until you negotiated the deal with SCO, restricted. For a long time you either had a multi-kilodollar source license or you didn't run UNIX at all. The binary distributions came a bit later. Initially when 'csh' was being written you had to have a source license. Typically you'd pay (if memory serves) $25k or so (quite a chunk of cash in 1979) for a WesternElectric license, park the tapes in a rack and send a copy of the license and a check for a few hundred dollars off to UCB to get the software you really intended to run ;) You'll note that the copyright lacks the "may be redistributed ..." clauses that we typically associate with UCB software. The famous UCB style of copyright ("copyrighted but redistributable") came later. Steven Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA08185 for pups-liszt; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:29:51 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue Jan 5 15:30:25 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA08180 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:29:44 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA11231; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:30:25 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901050530.QAA11231(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Why is csh `restricted'? In-Reply-To: <199901050526.VAA19409(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Jan 4, 1999 9:26:35 pm" To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:30:25 +1100 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Steven M. Schultz: > Warren - > > > The csh was first released in 2bsd, and came with the copyright notice: > > /* Copyright (c) 1979 Regents of the University of California */ > > So, can anybody tell me if, when and how did the sources to csh become > > restricted, or if not, how this urban legend arose?? > > It is not that they "became" restricted. They always "were" restricted > because they were derived from the original Bell Labs (later AT&T) > sources (code borrowed from /bin/sh). All UNIX sources were, up until > you negotiated the deal with SCO, restricted. > > Steven I didn't know that any of the sources in 1979 2bsd were contaminated with AT&T sources. I'll go and do a line comparison between V6 sh, V7 sh and the 2bsd csh, and see if I can find any signs of contamination. What else in the original 2bsd is contaminated? Thanks! Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA08404 for pups-liszt; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:49:27 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue Jan 5 15:50:06 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA08398 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:49:18 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA11350 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:50:06 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901050550.QAA11350(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Why is csh `restricted'? In-Reply-To: <199901050530.QAA11231(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> from Warren Toomey at "Jan 5, 1999 4:30:25 pm" To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:50:06 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Warren Toomey: > In article by Steven M. Schultz: > > > So, can anybody tell me if, when and how did the sources to csh become > > > restricted, or if not, how this urban legend arose?? > > > > It is not that they "became" restricted. They always "were" restricted > > because they were derived from the original Bell Labs (later AT&T) > > sources (code borrowed from /bin/sh). All UNIX sources were, up until > > you negotiated the deal with SCO, restricted. > > > > Steven Steven is right. An investigation into the csh from 2bsd shows that it is derived from the Mashey shell in 6th Edition UNIX, but not from the Bourne shell in 7th Edition. Hmm, I'll have to go and update my UNIX family tree now. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA08434 for pups-liszt; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:58:07 +1100 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Tue Jan 5 15:57:01 1999 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA08429 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:57:58 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id VAA19580; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:57:01 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:57:01 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199901050557.VAA19580(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com, wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Why is csh `restricted'? Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Warren - > From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> > I didn't know that any of the sources in 1979 2bsd were contaminated with > AT&T sources. I'll go and do a line comparison between V6 sh, V7 sh and Indeed they were. ALL sources were considered "contaminated" or restricted - that's why for years and years the only 2.x (and 4.x) BSD sites were universities or other companies that had source licenses. > the 2bsd csh, and see if I can find any signs of contamination. > > What else in the original 2bsd is contaminated? Anything that I (or other contributors) didn't write ourselves. A good case can be made that stuff ported from 4.4-Lite is not contaminated (because 4.4-Lite had the legal blessings of AT&T) but I was told at one time anything based on the Net-2 stuff could be (is?) contaminated. Alas by the time 4.4-Lite came out the software had bloated so much that very little of it can be ported over. I grabbed a few ideas and pieces out of the kernel - that's where the "sysctl" stuff in 2.11 came from for example. But the mainline applications are GNU based (megabytes and megabytes of memory assumed). I'd like to see someone getting GCC to run natively on a PDP-11! <grin> That's why the SCO "Ancient Unix" license is such a milestone event and is so important (perhaps more so than some folks realize). Up until this point you had to have a US$100K budget to gain access to the software we can legally obtain for $100 (no 'K') now. Steven Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA08456 for pups-liszt; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:01:18 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue Jan 5 16:01:49 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA08451 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:01:11 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA11467; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:01:49 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901050601.RAA11467(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Contaminated srcs In-Reply-To: <199901050557.VAA19580(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Jan 4, 1999 9:57: 1 pm" To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:01:49 +1100 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Steven M. Schultz: > A good case can be made that stuff ported from 4.4-Lite is not > contaminated (because 4.4-Lite had the legal blessings of AT&T) > but I was told at one time anything based on the Net-2 stuff could be > (is?) contaminated. Alas by the time 4.4-Lite came out the software > had bloated so much that very little of it can be ported over. I > grabbed a few ideas and pieces out of the kernel - that's where the > "sysctl" stuff in 2.11 came from for example. But the mainline > applications are GNU based (megabytes and megabytes of memory assumed). > I'd like to see someone getting GCC to run natively on a PDP-11! <grin> > > Steven Just a thought: much of the stuff in 16-bit Minix was written by people on Usenet and donated to Minix. The core stuff of course is owned by Prentice-Hall, but there are some freely-available programs. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA08490 for pups-liszt; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:10:15 +1100 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Tue Jan 5 16:09:48 1999 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA08485 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:10:07 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id WAA19671; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 22:09:48 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 22:09:48 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199901050609.WAA19671(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Why is csh `restricted'? Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Warren - Quite a busy night, eh? > > > sources (code borrowed from /bin/sh). All UNIX sources were, up until > > > you negotiated the deal with SCO, restricted. It might also be a good time to clarify that the sources are still 'restricted'. Legally we can share the sources only with other license holders. However the cost of obtaining the license is vastly more affordable now than in a previous era. > Steven is right. An investigation into the csh from 2bsd shows that it > is derived from the Mashey shell in 6th Edition UNIX, but not from the > Bourne shell in 7th Edition. Hmmm, didn't the V7 shell borrow from the V6 shell? Perhaps not completely "based on" (as in starting from a copy and editing away). Steven Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA08513 for pups-liszt; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:13:07 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue Jan 5 16:13:39 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA08502 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:12:58 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA11557; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:13:39 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901050613.RAA11557(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Why is csh `restricted'? In-Reply-To: <199901050609.WAA19671(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Jan 4, 1999 10: 9:48 pm" To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:13:39 +1100 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Steven M. Schultz: > Hmmm, didn't the V7 shell borrow from the V6 shell? Perhaps not > completely "based on" (as in starting from a copy and editing away). > Steven No, from what I heard Bourne nearly started from scratch. I did have a copy of some old Usenet news from John Mashey about the v6 shell; I'll try to dig it up. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA08520 for pups-liszt; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:13:17 +1100 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Jan 5 16:12:41 1999 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA08508 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:13:01 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id QAA06234; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:42:35 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id QAA79334; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:42:42 +1030 (CST) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:42:41 +1030 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Cc: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Why is csh `restricted'? Message-ID: <19990105164241.E78349(a)freebie.lemis.com> References: <199901050557.VAA19580(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199901050557.VAA19580(a)moe.2bsd.com>; from Steven M. Schultz on Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 09:57:01PM -0800 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Monday, 4 January 1999 at 21:57:01 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote: >> From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> >> What else in the original 2bsd is contaminated? > > Anything that I (or other contributors) didn't write ourselves. > > A good case can be made that stuff ported from 4.4-Lite is not > contaminated (because 4.4-Lite had the legal blessings of AT&T) > but I was told at one time anything based on the Net-2 stuff could be > (is?) contaminated. There has been a lot of confusion on this point. Well, maybe ``disagreement'' would be a better word. Obviously Net-2 contained almost only stuff written by contributors, though there was, indeed, some code which had obviously grown out of Seventh Edition code. I think somebody mentioned something like 13 files in the context of the lawsuit. I took a look at one (kern_clock.c?), and confirmed that yes, it looked as if it was derived rather than written from scratch. On the other hand, there was nothing which AT&T (or the opponent of the week) could claim to be trade secrets. And IMO none of this could have been construed to mean that people couldn't use the sources which were indisputably completely written by UCB and its contributors. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA08605 for pups-liszt; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:54:25 +1100 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Tue Jan 5 16:45:35 1999 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA08599 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:54:16 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id WAA19977 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 22:45:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 22:45:35 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199901050645.WAA19977(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Why is csh `restricted'? Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Greg - > From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> > > There has been a lot of confusion on this point. Well, maybe > ``disagreement'' would be a better word. Obviously Net-2 contained Hmmm, I think `confusion' is a better fit. Of course said confusion does lead to disagreement eventually ;) > think somebody mentioned something like 13 files in the context of the I'd heard it was 7 files at one time, then 11. It's a fairly small number _but_ the exact list was never disclosed (part of the settlement I understand). Without a list of files the fear (at the time) was that "the enemy" could come after you claiming derivation of some work from the forbidden files. Since you didn't know what files those were it was hard (impossible) to know what you could or couldn't use. > the week) could claim to be trade secrets. And IMO none of this could > have been construed to mean that people couldn't use the sources which > were indisputably completely written by UCB and its contributors. I'm not a lawyer (and don't even play one on the Net;))... That's how you and I (nonlawyer types) think. The sentiment at the time was that up until 4.4-Lite was declared "uncontaminated" there was a danger of being legally targeted for using Net-1 and Net-2. The point is moot now today because all manner of alternatives (FreeBSD for example) exist. That ready availability may have been a big factor in SCO's allowing inexpensive access to the "original" sources (albeit under 'license' rather than "freely available"). Steven Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id SAA08664 for pups-liszt; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 18:17:15 +1100 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Jan 5 17:16:39 1999 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA08659 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 18:17:05 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id RAA06480; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:46:39 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id RAA79676; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:46:40 +1030 (CST) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:46:39 +1030 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Why is csh `restricted'? Message-ID: <19990105174639.G78349(a)freebie.lemis.com> References: <199901050645.WAA19977(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199901050645.WAA19977(a)moe.2bsd.com>; from Steven M. Schultz on Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 10:45:35PM -0800 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Monday, 4 January 1999 at 22:45:35 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > Greg - > >> From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> >> >> There has been a lot of confusion on this point. Well, maybe >> ``disagreement'' would be a better word. Obviously Net-2 contained > > Hmmm, I think `confusion' is a better fit. Of course said confusion > does lead to disagreement eventually ;) We can agree (or is that defuse?) about that. >> think somebody mentioned something like 13 files in the context of the > > I'd heard it was 7 files at one time, then 11. It's a fairly > small number _but_ the exact list was never disclosed (part of the > settlement I understand). Without a list of files the fear (at the > time) was that "the enemy" could come after you claiming derivation > of some work from the forbidden files. Since you didn't know what > files those were it was hard (impossible) to know what you could or > couldn't use. Well, here's an extract from BSDI's announcement dated 8 Feb 1994: > This broadcast message addresses many of the questions that have arrived > in my mailbox in the last few days. > > Q: After this lawsuit resolution, is BSDI still in business? > A: You bet. And we're shipping 1.1 early next week. > > Q: The press release was unclear, do I get to keep my current copy > of BSD/386? > A: The answer is yes! BSDI is not recalling prior versions. > Any USA domestic customer whose support was valid through December, > 1993 will be shipped the new V1.1 release. I will be mailing a paper > letter to each USA domestic customer detailing their service contract > status and verifying the V1.1 shipping address. > > Q: What's all this about `binary-only files'? Will BSDI continue to > ship source code? > A: For Version 1.1 only, BSDI will ship the following kernel files > in binary format: > > kern/init_main.c kern/subr_rmap.c ufs/ufs_bmap.c > kern/kern_clock.c kern/sys_generic.c ufs/ufs_disksubr.c > kern/kern_exit.c kern/sys_process.c ufs/ufs_inode.c > kern/kern_physio.c kern/tty.c ufs/ufs_vnops.c > kern/kern_sig.c kern/tty_subr.c > kern/kern_synch.c kern/vfs_syscalls.c OK, so it was 16, not 13. And yes, they didn't say that these were the ones, but I did look at one and saw the similarities. > Q: I noticed your signature changed. Did you get promoted? > A: Yes, we now have a full-time president. Me! > > Rob Kolstad > President, BSDI Well, some things just keep changing. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id CAA10066 for pups-liszt; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 02:30:57 +1100 (EST) >From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Wed Jan 6 01:24:00 1999 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA10061 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 02:30:47 +1100 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA27132; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 10:24:00 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199901051524.KAA27132(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: Why is csh `restricted'? In-Reply-To: <199901050645.WAA19977(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Jan 4, 99 10:45:35 pm" To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 10:24:00 -0500 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > > think somebody mentioned something like 13 files in the context of the > > I'd heard it was 7 files at one time, then 11. It's a fairly > small number _but_ the exact list was never disclosed (part of the > settlement I understand). Without a list of files the fear (at the > time) was that "the enemy" could come after you claiming derivation > of some work from the forbidden files. Since you didn't know what > files those were it was hard (impossible) to know what you could or > couldn't use. INet Dunce Cap firmly attached, in case my greymatters are vaporware.... I though I remembered seeing in one of the varieties of the 386BSD-0.0, 386BSD-0.1, FreeBSD-1.1, FreeBSD-1.1.5.1 (don't ask where, because I really don't remember exactly), a subtree with a README and the original 7 files (yes, I counted them and it was 7). Now, that makes me want to backtrack to find that and see what exactly was different. Vague memory suggests it may have been in the 1.1.5.1 suite, since that was about the time of the great territorial Unix Wars of old...... > I'm not a lawyer (and don't even play one on the Net;))... That's > how you and I (nonlawyer types) think. The sentiment at the time > was that up until 4.4-Lite was declared "uncontaminated" there was > a danger of being legally targeted for using Net-1 and Net-2. That was where the shift from the 1 release level to the 2 release level came in. Sadly, I was not really paying much attention to it all going by on the net back then, since I was tied up in AIX boxen. But, I did run across that interesting subtree and those 7 magic files, one time. Now, where DID I see them...... > The point is moot now today because all manner of alternatives > (FreeBSD for example) exist. That ready availability may have been > a big factor in SCO's allowing inexpensive access to the "original" > sources (albeit under 'license' rather than "freely available"). > > Steven I am glad it all came to pass. But, it is still fun to peruse the odd bits here and there, and sometimes real history or insights pop up. If all goes well, another minor bit of history may pop up shortly. With the graces of Dennis Ritchie, I rekeyed in the V1 manuals in roff source, in case anyone still has a model KSR37 sitting around with a box full of paper, roff, and too much time to burn. It is complete, now, but needs some editorial fixings since the OCR came through rather bad. I made the suggestion that he allow us to put a copy in the UHS archives. It may appear on his web page when the editorial fixings get done, and hopefully, minnie, too. Bob Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id CAA10122 for pups-liszt; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 02:48:35 +1100 (EST) >From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Wed Jan 6 01:41:47 1999 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA10117 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 02:48:25 +1100 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA27177; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 10:41:47 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199901051541.KAA27177(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: OK I got this here VAXen thingie.... what is it? To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 10:41:47 -0500 (EST) Cc: bsdbob(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (Robert D. Keys) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk OK, Dummy here stuck his foot in his choppers an' won the bid on that VAXen for the grand total of eleven buckeroos de realme. What can I run with it? It was just too much fun to pass up, and it drew too many chuckles from the PC crowd in the surplus warehouse....(:+}}.... Machine: VAXstation 3500, no consoles or external boxes, only the tower. Tape Drive: TK70 Hard Drive: RA70 Boards: SLOT BOARD NUMBER DESCRIPTION ---- ------------ ---------------------------------------------- 1 KA650 -BA 2 MS650 -AA 3 MS650 -AA 4 DELQA -SA 5 VCB02 6 VCB02 7 VCB02 8 CXY08 9 TQK70 10 KDA50 11 KDA50 12 (empty) What are the above boards, for reference? What boards are needed to bring up the machine minimally and test it out? How should one fire it up the first time, without blowing it up? I am working with the original owner of the beast to see if he may have a box of odd manuals and hopefully tapes still in storage somewhere. If not, I am at ground zero with it. I am assuming it will have to be run headless, via an old VT-52ish Zenith terminal I have, or a Kermit with VT-100 emulation. I don't have the main color monitor for it, or the mouse and keyboard. What is the pinout of the silly MMJ connector on the CPU? Will a plain terminal work OK? What kinds of printer can be hooked up to it, via what protocols? What is the best way to network it into my local home ethernet coax? Any suggestions are appreciated. Thanks Bob Keys

26 years, 3 months

1
0
0 0

Re: Ancient SunOS source

by Erin W. Corliss

On 3 Jan 1999, Mirian Crzig Lennox wrote: > Last month, there was some discussion about getting Sun to release the > sources to old SunOS 4.1 under the Ancient UNIX source licence. I'm > curious as to what progress has been made on that. I'm > enthusiastically looking forward to hopefully being able to run > SunOS-4.1.3 with full source on an old Sun 3/80. Have you tried the Sun 3 port of NetBSD? Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id IAA02037 for pups-liszt; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 08:53:45 +1100 (EST) >From Mirian Crzig Lennox <mirian(a)xensei.com> Mon Jan 4 07:52:16 1999 Received: from trantor.cosmic.com (xensei-PPP-0227.xensei.com [207.31.197.27]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA02032 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 08:53:33 +1100 (EST) Received: (from mirian@localhost) by trantor.cosmic.com (8.8.7/8.8.4) id QAA18338; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 16:52:17 -0500 From: Mirian Crzig Lennox <mirian(a)xensei.com> To: "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Ancient SunOS source References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990103134337.31034A-100000(a)coffee.corliss.net> Original-Sender: mirian(a)xensei.com Organization: The Cosmic Computing Corporation of Alpha Centauri Date: 03 Jan 1999 16:52:16 -0500 In-Reply-To: "Erin W. Corliss"'s message of "Sun, 3 Jan 1999 13:48:20 -0800 (PST)" Message-ID: <m3lnjk81nz.fsf(a)trantor.cosmic.com> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net> writes: > On 3 Jan 1999, Mirian Crzig Lennox wrote: > > > Last month, there was some discussion about getting Sun to release the > > sources to old SunOS 4.1 under the Ancient UNIX source licence. I'm > > curious as to what progress has been made on that. I'm > > enthusiastically looking forward to hopefully being able to run > > SunOS-4.1.3 with full source on an old Sun 3/80. > > Have you tried the Sun 3 port of NetBSD? Oh, NetBSD is a very nice Berkeley UNIX, to sure... I'm just looking forward to being able to play around with good olde-fashioned SunOS. Call it nostalgia, or something like that. :) -- Mirian Crzig Lennox Systems Anarchist "There's a New World Order coming every minute. Make mine extra cheese." Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA02089 for pups-liszt; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:09:47 +1100 (EST) >From "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net> Mon Jan 4 08:11:30 1999 Received: from coffee.corliss.net (erin(a)coffee.gta-tech.com.121.7.12.in-addr.arpa [12.7.121.245] (may be forged)) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA02084 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:09:38 +1100 (EST) Received: from localhost (erin@localhost) by coffee.corliss.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA31265 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 14:11:30 -0800 Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 14:11:30 -0800 (PST) From: "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: ... Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990103140148.31189A-100000(a)coffee.corliss.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Anyone care to comment on the likelihood of someone being able to modify the kernel binary for Unix version 7 so that it treats a 60 megabyte RD52 drive like an array of six RL drives? I looked at the device-specific assembly code in boot blocks for the two drives and it seems that besides the geometry they're pretty similar... I assume, of course, that the binary license doesn't allow me to disassemble or modify the kernel, tho. I also recently solved the disk image dilemma -- I made a utility in Visual Basic that lets you examine, import, and export files on various disk images. The disk-specific parts are in interchangeable ActiveX modules -- right now I only have code for RK06 disk images with Unix 6 or RSTS file systems, but the model is easily expandable to any drive/filesystem combination. I'll put it on my web site if anyone's interested... Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA02281 for pups-liszt; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 10:19:04 +1100 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Jan 4 09:18:07 1999 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA02276 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 10:18:38 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA29033; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:48:05 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id JAA70032; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:48:07 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19990104094807.X66110(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:48:07 +1030 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Yet Another Apout Version References: <199901031151.WAA26388(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199901031151.WAA26388(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 10:51:45PM +1100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Sunday, 3 January 1999 at 22:51:45 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote: > Hmm, > The tarball of Apout that I put up for ftp had a file missing, > and a serious bug which caused 2.11BSD ls -l to go into an infinite loop. > I've removed this version and placed a new version of Apout in: > > ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/pub/PDP-11/Sims/Apout/ > > Things are looking good. With a small bit of manual help, I was > able to run make in 2.11BSD /usr/src/bin, which rebuilds all of > the binaries in /bin. How long did it take, on what kind of machine? Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA02475 for pups-liszt; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:24:26 +1100 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mon Jan 4 10:18:11 1999 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA02469 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:24:16 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id QAA18722 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 16:18:11 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 16:18:11 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199901040018.QAA18722(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: ... Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > From: "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net> > > Anyone care to comment on the likelihood of someone being able to modify > the kernel binary for Unix version 7 so that it treats a 60 megabyte RD52 > drive like an array of six RL drives? Not likely at all. Completely different controllers - the only similarity between an RL controller and an MSCP (RQDX3 for example) controller lies in their both being Qbus cards and disks are attached to them. The RL is about as smart as a rock - it can't even do spiral reads/writes (even the RK05 could do that), so there's code present to break transfers up into multiple pieces if cylinder and side boundaries are crossed. Also the RL is a "traditional" device in that the driver calculates sector/track/cylinder and stuffs those values into registers. With MSCP you have to build command and response ring buffers, fill in a packet with rather badly documented values, and then poke the controller to go look for its new packet. The geometry calculations are done in the controller not the driver. The only concept of geometry that MSCP drivers have is "how many sectors does the drive have" (and even then that value's only used to pretty print something when the drive is first accessed) - somewhat like SCSI in that aspect. Then too the RD52 is 30MB (sect/trak = 18, tracks/cyl = 7, cyl = 480). The RD53 is ~70mb and the RD54 is ~159mb. It'd be easier to add an MSCP driver to V7 than it would be to try and do binary edits on the RL driver to support non-RL devices. Ick. > I looked at the device-specific assembly code in boot blocks for the two > drives and it seems that besides the geometry they're pretty similar... I They're about as different as can be. I think you were lulled into thinking they're similar by the fact that most of the bootblock is "boiler plate" (the filesystem search code to look for /boot). The part that deals with the device is small but quite dissimilar. The bootblock is the least/smallest part of the problem. All the boot- block does is load /boot - and that's where you need a more fullfeatured (but still not as full as the kernel's) driver. Then once there's a standalone driver for a device in /boot then, and only then, does the kernel become involved (at which time a full driver is needed). > assume, of course, that the binary license doesn't allow me to disassemble > or modify the kernel, tho. The A.U. license provides full up source - no need to disassemble anything - that can be modified to whatever extent is desired. That won't solve the problem of getting a MSCP driver into V7 unless one can do the development work using a simulator. Steven Schultz Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA06247 for pups-liszt; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 06:48:52 +1100 (EST) >From Billy Stivers <alyosha(a)vrytekai.Corp.Sun.COM> Tue Jan 5 05:47:03 1999 Received: from mercury.Sun.COM (mercury.Sun.COM [192.9.25.1]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id GAA06242 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 06:48:42 +1100 (EST) Received: from Corp.Sun.COM ([129.145.35.78]) by mercury.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/mail.byaddr) with SMTP id LAA18859; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:48:02 -0800 Received: from vrytekai.Corp.Sun.COM by Corp.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-5.3) id LAA14535; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:48:01 -0800 Received: from vrytekai (vrytekai [129.145.71.165]) by vrytekai.Corp.Sun.COM (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA05888; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:47:03 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199901041947.LAA05888(a)vrytekai.Corp.Sun.COM> Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:47:03 -0800 (PST) From: Billy Stivers <alyosha(a)vrytekai.Corp.Sun.COM> Reply-To: Billy Stivers <alyosha(a)vrytekai.Corp.Sun.COM> Subject: Re: Ancient SunOS source To: erin(a)coffee.corliss.net, mirian(a)xensei.com Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: 7SK+ImZBXKMmaeX/roFFdg== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 CDE Version 1.3 SunOS 5.7 sun4u sparc Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk These efforts aren't dead. :) They just took vacation with me, for the last week and a half or so. I'll try to report some news sometime during the following week or two, though with the mess of work that popped up in my absence, I'm not sure whether I'd be that optimistic. :/ --Billy >From: Mirian Crzig Lennox <mirian(a)xensei.com> >To: "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net> >Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au >Subject: Re: Ancient SunOS source >Original-Sender: mirian(a)xensei.com >Date: 03 Jan 1999 16:52:16 -0500 > >"Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net> writes: > >> On 3 Jan 1999, Mirian Crzig Lennox wrote: >> >> > Last month, there was some discussion about getting Sun to release the >> > sources to old SunOS 4.1 under the Ancient UNIX source licence. I'm >> > curious as to what progress has been made on that. I'm >> > enthusiastically looking forward to hopefully being able to run >> > SunOS-4.1.3 with full source on an old Sun 3/80. >> >> Have you tried the Sun 3 port of NetBSD? > >Oh, NetBSD is a very nice Berkeley UNIX, to sure... I'm just looking >forward to being able to play around with good olde-fashioned SunOS. >Call it nostalgia, or something like that. :) > >-- >Mirian Crzig Lennox Systems Anarchist > "There's a New World Order coming every minute. > Make mine extra cheese." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- A "No" uttered from deepest conviction is better and greater than a "Yes" merely uttered to please, or what is worse, to avoid trouble. -- Mahatma Gandhi

26 years, 3 months

1
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Yet Another Apout Version

by Warren Toomey

Hmm, The tarball of Apout that I put up for ftp had a file missing, and a serious bug which caused 2.11BSD ls -l to go into an infinite loop. I've removed this version and placed a new version of Apout in: ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/pub/PDP-11/Sims/Apout/ Things are looking good. With a small bit of manual help, I was able to run make in 2.11BSD /usr/src/bin, which rebuilds all of the binaries in /bin. I've even (nearly) been able to build the GENERIC 2.11BSD kernel in /sys/GENERIC, but I get: # make .... ld -X -i -o unix scb.o mch_backup.o mch_click.o mch_copy.o ..... sys_process.o syscalls.o ufs_mount.o -Z hk.o init_main.o kern_prot.o tty_pty.o quota_kern.o quota_subr.o quota_ufs.o vm_swp.o vm_swap.o vm_proc.o -Z ht.o tm.o ts.o -Z tmscp.o tmscpdump.o -Z rl.o mch_fpsim.o ingreslock.o ufs_disksubr.o -Z rx.o kern_sysctl.o vm_sched.o vm_text.o -Z kern_pdp.o kern_xxx.o ufs_syscalls2.o mem.o ufs_subr.o rk.o sys_pipe.o kern_sig2.o toy.o subr_log.o -Z -Z -Z -Z -Z -Z -Y vers.o -lkern param.o Undefined: _proc _file _text *** Exit 1 Stop. # ls -l unix -rw------- 1 root 195480 Jan 3 03:41 unix Steven, any ideas as to the problem? I had to do two operations manually (using 32-bit native tools): sh ../conf/newvers.sh /bin/ed - param.s < ../conf/:comm-to-bss Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id EAA01186 for pups-liszt; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 04:17:03 +1100 (EST) >From Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> Mon Jan 4 03:16:23 1999 Received: from harrier.Uznet.NET (harrier.ml.org [193.220.92.194]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA01181 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 04:16:50 +1100 (EST) Received: from dosdev (pm7-94.dial.qual.net [205.212.2.94]) by harrier.Uznet.NET (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA04342 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 22:16:30 +0500 Message-Id: <199901031716.WAA04342(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> From: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> Date: 3 Jan 1999 17:16:23 GMT To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Time machine Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Dear PUPS/TUHS members, Have you ever wished to have a time machine? Have you ever wished to travel back to 1988, to the time when 4.3BSD-Tahoe was the latest release and the SCCS deltas corresponding to it were the most recent deltas? Well, at least I do. Although unfortunately real time travel is still limited to the X-Files, I have come up with a pretty good approximation, a time machine program. This program turns the Universe clock backwards on a given SCCS file, pruning it down to a given delta, specified either as an SID or as a delta serial number. The bulk of the work is done by the SCCS rmdel command. This command, however, can only delete one delta at a time and still leaves an audit trail in the delta table. My package consists of a shell script and two C programs that compensate these deficiencies. The result is that the SCCS file becomes byte-for-byte identical to the one that existed at the time you have chosen, just like with a real time machine! I include this package below as a uuencoded gzipped tarball. See the README file inside. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Cellular phone: 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET Enclosure: uuencoded tmachine.tar.gz: begin 644 tmachine.tar.gz M'XL(`)3,CS8``.T9:V_;-K!?S5]Q29TFSN+8DE]`TQ08DA8HT&Y`TWY*@U66 M:)NS)`HD'<];\]]W1UJVE*1MMB(QMN@`P]+I>&^2=^2[8,I'(N9/[A$`H-_M M`O[[[7:;_@%ZGOLG\+L^4O2[G4&[WQETZ6NOYS^!^]2I`@=!'#^'9!KQV`2Q MT`:,$HE],\.8L<*7$MEAR&IA",U?H2E+P\LTK,CM>8EWB4/QPW6J37OH_PWO M7_U\^N[5_<KXSOSW/42Z^8^/O0ZBNH-!MYK_#P$?)AR,2#@D03@1*8<L"*?! 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M2V7:5#R1ESQR)Z`Z5Z)<GY?2X<<J[OF$.MB]-4=2<;7:%C*M7#IOL/_;]/I3 M0045;`ZJ^__'#=7]?W7_7]W_5_?_U?W_XX3J_O]QP\;/?ZK[_^K^O[K_K^[_ MJ_O_ZOZ_@@>'ZO[_<4-U_U_=_U?W_X\7-M[_5??_U?U_=?^_L?O_OP%(*:`Y $`$```/Z_ ` end Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA01508 for pups-liszt; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 06:21:26 +1100 (EST) >From Mirian Crzig Lennox <mirian(a)xensei.com> Mon Jan 4 05:20:02 1999 Received: from trantor.cosmic.com (xensei-PPP-0227.xensei.com [207.31.197.27]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA01503 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 06:21:13 +1100 (EST) Received: (from mirian@localhost) by trantor.cosmic.com (8.8.7/8.8.4) id OAA17969; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 14:20:03 -0500 From: Mirian Crzig Lennox <mirian(a)xensei.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Ancient SunOS source References: <199812161520.KAA28340(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Original-Sender: mirian(a)xensei.com Organization: The Cosmic Computing Corporation of Alpha Centauri Date: 03 Jan 1999 14:20:02 -0500 In-Reply-To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys"'s message of "Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:20:18 -0500 (EST)" Message-ID: <m31zlccgf1.fsf(a)trantor.cosmic.com> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Last month, there was some discussion about getting Sun to release the sources to old SunOS 4.1 under the Ancient UNIX source licence. I'm curious as to what progress has been made on that. I'm enthusiastically looking forward to hopefully being able to run SunOS-4.1.3 with full source on an old Sun 3/80. -- Mirian Crzig Lennox Systems Anarchist "There's a New World Order coming every minute. Make mine extra cheese."

26 years, 3 months

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New Apout Sim Version

by Warren Toomey

All, Welcome to 1999, I hope you all had a good Christmas and New Year. I've just released a new version of my Apout PDP-11 simulator at ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/pub/PDP-11/Sims/Apout/ The 6th/7th Edition stuff is untouched, but the emulator can now run a significant number of binaries from 2.11BSD: /bin/sh, make, the C compiler, most of /bin and /usr/bin. I've been able to rebuild both ls and sh from the sources. Although the emulated 2.11BSD environment isn't complete, its enough to be nearly useful! Cheers all, Warren

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TUHS January 1999