TUHS May 1998

tuhs@tuhs.org

3 participants
9 discussions

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On May 10, 9:49, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In! > > > From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> > > I wouldn't be *that* surprised by these results. For instance, I believe > > that longs are implemented with FP. And I wouldn't be surprised if a few > > FP ops were sneaked in to compute some stuff that aren't immediately > > appearant. > > It is true that _some_ long arithmetic is done using FP. The long > divide is done that way (at least in 2BSD, I've not looked at V7 > yet) because it is much much less code to convert the operands to > FP, do the divide, and then convert the result back (the alternative > is about two pages of code). > The C compiler itself did NOT generate FP unless the operands were > explicitly FP (float or double). Most C code was 'int' or 'char *' > and no FP code was needed or used for that. That bears out what I disovered by accident yesterday -- looking at a 7th Edition UK source distribution for 11/23's and other small machines. The READ_ME file lists the programs that have possible floating point problems, or which might be too big using emulation. I can't remember the details, but the list had a few surprises. Most of the C programs have very little FP, and that is mostly due to a small number of library routines that include FP ops, but one or two programs are exceptional. For example, 'factor' has a lot of FP at the beginning, a chunk in the middle, and a large subroutine near the end, which uses FP to compute square roots using Newton's method. factor is written in assembler, not C, and has much more FP than other things I looked at, but several other programs use a little. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA23210 for pups-liszt; Mon, 11 May 1998 08:44:05 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon May 11 08:58:57 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA23205 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 11 May 1998 08:44:02 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA02896 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 11 May 1998 09:05:06 +1000 (EST) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA23188 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 11 May 1998 08:37:53 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA02806 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 11 May 1998 08:58:57 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199805102258.IAA02806(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: PUPS Mail List welcome + news To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 08:58:57 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk We've had a regular intake of new subscribers to the PUPS mailing list, so I thought I'd say Welcome to all the newcomers. There are now 90 people on the list, and the quantity of messages is increasing daily. The mailing list is also available in a digest form, which is distributed twice a week. If you would rather be on the digest list, send mail to majordomo(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au with the lines in the body of the mail: unsubscribe pups subscribe pups-digest For more information about old UNIX, see the PUPS web pages at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS, and the FAQ in particular. The most recent news is that both Bob Supnik and the Begemot team have released new versions of their PDP-11 emulators. A further bug in Bob's emulator was found by Steven Schultz, so we might see a patch to the emulator coming out soon. The PUPS volunteers have been hard at work burning and mailing out the first batch of CDs containing the PUPS Archive, which is now about 520Megs in size. We also have about 30 people with authorised access into the on-line PUPS Archive. Dion at SCO has promised another batch of new UNIX licenses, which I should receive in the next few days. When I do, I'll post the details here. That's all for now. Ciao, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA23314 for pups-liszt; Mon, 11 May 1998 09:20:25 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon May 11 09:41:19 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA23309 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 11 May 1998 09:20:21 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA02987; Mon, 11 May 1998 09:41:19 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199805102341.JAA02987(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: PUPS Mail List welcome + news To: jkatz(a)darpanet.net (J. Joseph Max Katz) Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 09:41:19 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.3.96.980510164539.6267A-100000(a)corinne.cpio.org> from "J. Joseph Max Katz" at "May 10, 98 04:47:31 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by J. Joseph Max Katz: > Hi, > > What's the latest on the 4BSD re-release that Marshal Kirk McKusick > is doing? I've sent the list of people interested to Kirk. He's still a bit vague, but is looking at selling a 4-CD set of all the 4BSD releases for a price around US$100. That's a ballpark number, and will depend on how many people want the set: the more the cheaper it will be. I haven't heard back from him for a week or so. Should I ask him what he is planning? Please, none of this is for public consumption just yet. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA26253 for pups-liszt; Tue, 12 May 1998 04:39:53 +1000 (EST) >From Bob Supnik <Bob.Supnik(a)digital.com> Tue May 12 05:01:14 1998 Received: from mail11.digital.com (mail11.digital.com [192.208.46.10]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA26248 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 12 May 1998 04:39:46 +1000 (EST) Received: from exceng1.ako.dec.com (exceng1.ako.dec.com [16.151.72.50]) by mail11.digital.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/WV1.0e) with ESMTP id PAA07349 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 11 May 1998 15:00:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by exceng1.ako.dec.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id <KRDX27L5>; Mon, 11 May 1998 15:00:19 -0400 Message-ID: <6B84B1FF221BD011B0AC08002BE6920671F48E(a)excmso.mso.dec.com> From: Bob Supnik <Bob.Supnik(a)digital.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: vi bug found Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 15:01:14 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk For those who want vi to work before V2.3c is released, the problem is in the divide instruction. Look for: dst = src / src2; if ((dst >= 077777) || (dst < -0100000)) { and change the second line to: if ((dst > 077777) || (dst < -0100000)) { (Thanks to Steve Schultz for finding this.) The magtape bootstrap is also broken, that will be fixed in V2.3c as well. /Bob Supnik Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA27617 for pups-liszt; Tue, 12 May 1998 10:37:37 +1000 (EST) >From "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Tue May 12 10:55:24 1998 Received: from toad.xkl.com (toad.xkl.com [192.94.202.40]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA27612 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 12 May 1998 10:37:30 +1000 (EST) Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 17:55:24 -0700 From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Subject: Just got my license from SCO... To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Message-ID: <13354936165.17.DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I'm number AU-31. ------- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA27849 for pups-liszt; Tue, 12 May 1998 12:02:14 +1000 (EST) >From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Tue May 12 12:21:12 1998 Received: from renoir.op.net (root(a)renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA27844 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 12 May 1998 12:02:06 +1000 (EST) Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc2-0d.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.109]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.17 $) with SMTP id WAA16927; Mon, 11 May 1998 22:21:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199805120221.WAA16927(a)renoir.op.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> To: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 22:21:12 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In! Reply-to: edgee(a)cyberpass.net CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-reply-to: <19980508194615.O12200(a)freebie.lemis.com> References: <199805080414.AAA28438(a)renoir.op.net>; from Ed G. on Fri, May 08, 1998 at 12:14:03AM -0400 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > I don't know what the code above is intended to do, but it's not > floating point. At the very best, it would indicate the use of the > floating point registers for straightforward data moves. I stand by > my assertion that tar doesn't use floating point, neither in the > Seventh Edition nor elsewhere. I agree: tar doesn't *use* floating point. However, from what I can determine the floating point ops in tar are not some weird way of moving data around, nor is floating point being used to do long arithmetic as some have suggested. Compare the first few tar floating point ops with a dummy program consisting of a single call to scanf: tar, 106 floating point ops: 0: SETD ;170011 20532: STCFD F0,(R1) ;176011 20562: STF F0,(R1) ;174011 22406: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424 22410: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 22460: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424 22462: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 22620: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424 22622: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 24124: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004 24130: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 26616: LDF F0,#56200 ;172427 056200 26622: STF F0,177732(R5) ;174065 177732 etc. scanf, 106 floating point ops: 000000: SETD ;170011 002764: STCFD F0,(R1) ;176011 003014: STF F0,(R1) ;174011 004346: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424 004350: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 004420: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424 004422: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 004560: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424 004562: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 004750: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004 004754: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 006410: LDF F0,#56200 ;172427 056200 006414: STF F0,177732(R5) ;174065 177732 So it would appear that whatever floating point there is in tar comes from library routines which have been linked in, but which tar does not use. "When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras." Ed Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA06408 for pups-liszt; Thu, 14 May 1998 10:40:06 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu May 14 10:59:28 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA06400 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 14 May 1998 10:39:58 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA08059; Thu, 14 May 1998 10:59:28 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199805140059.KAA08059(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: More licenses from SCO To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 10:59:28 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: application/pgp; format=text; x-action=sign Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- I've received some more UNIX source licenses from SCO. The new licencees are: Craig Bevans, Brian Chase, Efton Collins, Peter Collinson, David Galloway, Jay Jaeger, Dieter Muller, Daniel Seagraves, Jason Stevens, Warren Toomey, Christopher Vance, Norman Wilson, Thomas Zenker. As always, if you are interested in obtaining access to the on-line PUPS Archive, or a copy of it on some form of media (CD, tape etc.), then please mail your request to pupsarchive(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au. You will receive an automated response with more details. The PUPS Volunteers have sent out about 6 CDs so far, and one tape(?). Cheers all, Warren -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3ia Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNVpBm0bObQUa2Z5FAQFe7gP9ERhvXqncCx1U5uyzSBo6n5TYm34XCrmi gg0KYOHhG1vNdFuXHviXQa3u9fd/8J1eNlw7e7aKAkNbfjb2jilO0XA8yU+b6D1O LsOwFuoCvgAFpdERIIeIFEmI+/fFEDsSN07/4TOazLkZgyBeWjJ45MYeew1UJZB5 r3lL++opjiA= =4xMV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA06436 for pups-liszt; Thu, 14 May 1998 10:43:48 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu May 14 11:03:12 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA06429 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 14 May 1998 10:43:44 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA08094; Thu, 14 May 1998 11:03:13 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199805140103.LAA08094(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: More licenses from SCO To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 11:03:12 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199805140059.KAA08059(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "May 14, 98 10:59:28 am" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Warren Toomey: > I've received some more UNIX source licenses from SCO. The new licencees are: I forgot to say: Dion gave me license number AU-0, at the behest of the members of the PUPS mailing list. Thanks all!! Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA09954 for pups-liszt; Mon, 18 May 1998 19:54:02 +1000 (EST) >From Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> Mon May 18 19:54:06 1998 Received: from tesla.df.lth.se (tesla.df.lth.se [194.47.252.144]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA09949 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 18 May 1998 19:53:55 +1000 (EST) Received: from lintilla2.df.lth.se (lintilla2.df.lth.se [194.47.252.38]) by tesla.df.lth.se (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA19904; Mon, 18 May 1998 11:51:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by lintilla2.df.lth.se (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA13628; Mon, 18 May 1998 11:54:07 +0200 Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 11:54:06 +0200 (MET DST) From: Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au cc: PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Exploited by spammers. In-Reply-To: <199805140059.KAA08059(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980518114414.13620B-100000(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Hi all! I want to tell you all how sorry I am for spamming occuring from this site. Due to several reasons it was possible to exploit the lintilla service machines. We hope we have put an end to it now (it was not an easy task since it involved *cringe* beurocracy). If anybody receives spams from lintilla.df.lth.se or lintilla2.df.lth.se from now on please let me know! It should not happen but.... The lintilla services machines does not approve to spam and we try to fight back as hard as we are able. Internet used to be a happy place where people helped eachother and where life was simple and good. Sometimes I long for those days now gone. =( Today it seems that greed and abuse is the rule... Again, sorry for the inconvenience that spamming from this site has caused! Sincerely yours: Lars Persson, the Lintilla services. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12548 for pups-liszt; Tue, 19 May 1998 13:03:27 +1000 (EST) >From "Ian King" <iking(a)killthewabbit.org> Tue May 19 12:50:09 1998 Received: from forbin.killthewabbit.org (killthewabbit.org [208.192.43.132]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA12542 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 19 May 1998 13:03:18 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805190148.SAA10957(a)forbin.killthewabbit.org> From: "Ian King" <iking(a)killthewabbit.org> To: "PDP Unix Preservation" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Question regarding tape drive interface Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 19:50:09 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1160 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au id NAA12544 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk OK, this may not be *exactly* the right place to ask this..... I'm in the process of acquiring a PDP-11/34, on which I intend to run *some* flavor of UNIX. I also have a Cipher F-880 tape drive, which I would like to interface with the PDP-11. Reading between the lines of several pages on the Web, it seems it should be possible to do this, but which module is required? And does that prescribe the version of UNIX I'll be able to run? Thanks in advance for any experience you can share! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 24 hours in a day, 24 beers in a case. Coincidence? Ian King <iking(a)KillTheWabbit.org> No opinions but my own. So there. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA15443 for pups-liszt; Wed, 20 May 1998 05:38:49 +1000 (EST) >From Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Wed May 20 05:33:00 1998 Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA15438 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 20 May 1998 05:38:41 +1000 (EST) Received: from (falstaf.demon.co.uk) [158.152.152.109] by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0ybs9n-0004Zb-00; Tue, 19 May 1998 20:34:39 +0100 Message-ID: <5Im5JEAs5dY1Ewa$(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 20:33:00 +0100 To: Ian King <iking(a)killthewabbit.org> Cc: PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> From: Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: Question regarding tape drive interface In-Reply-To: <199805190148.SAA10957(a)forbin.killthewabbit.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike (32) Version 3.05 <YSkKJATYm0AxAbv6xUlJqScVOx> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In message <199805190148.SAA10957(a)forbin.killthewabbit.org>, Ian King <iking(a)killthewabbit.org> writes >OK, this may not be *exactly* the right place to ask this..... > >I'm in the process of acquiring a PDP-11/34, on which I intend to run *some* >flavor of UNIX. I also have a Cipher F-880 tape drive, which I would like to >interface with the PDP-11. Reading between the lines of several pages on the >Web, it seems it should be possible to do this, but which module is required? >And does that prescribe the version of UNIX I'll be able to run? Thanks in >advance for any experience you can share! >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >---------------------------------- >24 hours in a day, 24 beers in a case. Coincidence? >Ian King <iking(a)KillTheWabbit.org> No opinions but my own. So there. Wotcher, You'll need a UNIBUS TS11 card, I don't know the number for this but it should be relatively easy to get hold of. BSD2 certainly supports this. Cheers Robin Robin Birch robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk M1ASU/2E0ARJ Old computers and radios always welcome Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA03403 for pups-liszt; Fri, 29 May 1998 13:12:02 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri May 29 13:12:02 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA03398 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 29 May 1998 13:11:58 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA01694 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 29 May 1998 13:12:02 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199805290312.NAA01694(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: More UNIX Licenses To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 13:12:02 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I've just received licenses from SCO for Don Cruickshank and Hartmut Brandt. Congrats, you two! Ciao, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA18054 for pups-liszt; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:55:01 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Jun 18 12:54:57 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA18046 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:54:57 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA04029; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:54:58 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199806180254.MAA04029(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: More UNIX Licenses To: djenner(a)halcyon.com Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:54:57 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) In-Reply-To: <35887E29.828B78E2(a)halcyon.com> from "David C. Jenner" at "Jun 17, 98 07:40:41 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by David C. Jenner: > Warren, > > I haven't received any PUPS mailing list since this message. > (May 28th). Are things that slow? It's been quiet! However, I'll send in a test message to wake everybody up :-) Ciao, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA24887 for pups-liszt; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:57:50 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Jul 6 13:58:23 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA24882 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:57:46 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA07988 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:58:23 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199807060358.NAA07988(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: More SCO Licenses + Software Tools To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:58:23 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk All, The following people now have SCO source licenses for ancient Unix: Bruce Robertson, Erick Delios, Kelwin Wylie, Kirsten McIntyre, Matthew Crosby That brings the numbering scheme up to AU-50, but in fact there are 52 SCO source licenses for ancient Unix. The mailing list has been pretty quiet. Hope you're all well. The only news I have is that Norman Wilson is still slowly scanning in the manuals from 2nd to 5th Edition. He now has most (all?) of 5th edition scanned in. I haven't heard from Kirk McKusick, but he's still planning to sell a 4CD set of all the 4BSD releases from CSRG. The cost is still expected to be around US$100, but if he gets flooded with requests, this may come down. Software Tools -------------- I got some mail last week from Deborah Scherrer: I was one of the people who created the Software Tools project and Software Tools Users Group (Peter Salus mentioned us in his book). If you're interested, you might want to include the Software Tools tapes in your collection. She suggested that I contact Barbera Chase, which I did. Barbera (bc(a)mrdata.netcetera.com) then wrote: Sorry, we don't actually have any of the files online anymore, nor do we have access to a tape drive. What we have are 9-track tapes, probably in 1600bpi. There are three versions of the tools for PDP machines, one for RSX-11 and two for "generic" Unix. I still happen to have several copies of each, and will be glad to send them to you. Just let me know where to send them, and if you happen to have a shipping account number that would be even better ;-) I don't know Barbera's geographic location. However, would anybody in the US be prepared to read these tapes for us, and pass the contents to me for inclusion in the PUPS Archive??! Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA24990 for pups-liszt; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:18:43 +1000 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Jul 6 14:18:28 1998 Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133] (may be forged)) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA24985 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:18:35 +1000 (EST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id NAA07541; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:48:29 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980706134828.B6528(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:48:28 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: More SCO Licenses + Software Tools References: <199807060358.NAA07988(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199807060358.NAA07988(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 01:58:23PM +1000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Monday, 6 July 1998 at 13:58:23 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > Software Tools > -------------- > > I got some mail last week from Deborah Scherrer: > I was one of the people who created the Software > Tools project and Software Tools Users Group (Peter Salus > mentioned us in his book). If you're interested, you might > want to include the Software Tools tapes in your collection. > > She suggested that I contact Barbera Chase, which I did. > Barbera (bc(a)mrdata.netcetera.com) then wrote: > Sorry, we don't actually have any of the files online anymore, nor do we > have access to a tape drive. What we have are 9-track tapes, probably in > 1600bpi. There are three versions of the tools for PDP machines, one for > RSX-11 and two for "generic" Unix. I still happen to have several copies > of each, and will be glad to send them to you. Just let me know where to > send them, and if you happen to have a shipping account number that would > be even better ;-) > > I don't know Barbera's geographic location. However, would anybody in the > US be prepared to read these tapes for us, and pass the contents to me for > inclusion in the PUPS Archive??! Registrant: Netcetera, Inc. (NETCETERA-DOM) 11950 Anderson Valley Way P.O. Box 939 Boonville, CA 95415 Domain Name: NETCETERA.COM Administrative Contact: Chase, Barbara L. (BC309) bc(a)NETCETERA.COM 707-895-2691 Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA27259 for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 05:16:41 +1000 (EST) >From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Tue Jul 7 05:15:30 1998 Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (mgate.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA27254 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 05:16:34 +1000 (EST) Received: from halcyon.com (blv-lx106-ip42.nwnexus.net [206.63.41.242]) by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA20935; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 12:15:35 -0700 Message-ID: <35A12252.EFEFE2B0(a)halcyon.com> Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 12:15:30 -0700 From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Reply-To: djenner(a)halcyon.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> CC: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: More SCO Licenses + Software Tools References: <199807060358.NAA07988(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <19980706134828.B6528(a)freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I think having these in the archives would be great. I used the Software Tools extensively back in the late 70's and early 80's. I wish I could read the tapes in, but I'm still working on a tape drive for an 11/73. (see separate mail.) Dave Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Monday, 6 July 1998 at 13:58:23 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > > Software Tools > > -------------- > > > > I got some mail last week from Deborah Scherrer: > > I was one of the people who created the Software > > Tools project and Software Tools Users Group (Peter Salus > > mentioned us in his book). If you're interested, you might > > want to include the Software Tools tapes in your collection. > > > > She suggested that I contact Barbera Chase, which I did. > > Barbera (bc(a)mrdata.netcetera.com) then wrote: > > Sorry, we don't actually have any of the files online anymore, nor do we > > have access to a tape drive. What we have are 9-track tapes, probably in > > 1600bpi. There are three versions of the tools for PDP machines, one for > > RSX-11 and two for "generic" Unix. I still happen to have several copies > > of each, and will be glad to send them to you. Just let me know where to > > send them, and if you happen to have a shipping account number that would > > be even better ;-) > > > > I don't know Barbera's geographic location. However, would anybody in the > > US be prepared to read these tapes for us, and pass the contents to me for > > inclusion in the PUPS Archive??! > > Registrant: > Netcetera, Inc. (NETCETERA-DOM) > 11950 Anderson Valley Way > P.O. Box 939 > Boonville, CA 95415 > > Domain Name: NETCETERA.COM > > Administrative Contact: > Chase, Barbara L. (BC309) bc(a)NETCETERA.COM > 707-895-2691 > > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address and phone numbers > finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA27294 for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 05:31:07 +1000 (EST) >From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Tue Jul 7 05:30:18 1998 Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (mgate.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA27289 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 05:30:57 +1000 (EST) Received: from halcyon.com (blv-lx106-ip42.nwnexus.net [206.63.41.242]) by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA21123; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 12:30:23 -0700 Message-ID: <35A125CA.45FB5455(a)halcyon.com> Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 12:30:18 -0700 From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Reply-To: djenner(a)halcyon.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Generating 2.11BSD boot tape References: <199807060358.NAA07988(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <19980706134828.B6528(a)freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk There hasn't been much traffic here for a while, so maybe I can stir things up a bit. I recently acquired a fabulous 9-track tape drive, an M4 9914, which has both a SCSI and a Pertec interface. This drive is so smart I spent a couple of hours playing with it without it being hooked up to any computer. What's nice is that I can presumably get around the "high-cost" bottleneck of using a tape drive on both a PDP-11 and Intel machines: use the SCSI interface on the PC where the interface is cheap (already exists) and use the Pertec interface on the -11 where the interface is cheap (already exists). Using the opposite interface on each machine could run up to a total of $2000 US. So, what I want to do is read my PUPS archive CD-ROM on an Intel machine and write appropriate 9-track tapes for the -11. The stumbling block seems to be software on the Intel side. SCSI software packages for MS-DOS or Windows 3.1/95/98/NT run $600, $800, even $1500US. There must be a way of doing a CD-to-Tape generation with a simple C-language program using one of the "free" OSes: Linux, FreeBSD, SCO UnixWare, etc. If anyone has any experience or ideas with this, I would appreciate your input. It would be very easy for me to install and use one of these OSs on a spare 486 I have. The question is, which is the most likely to support SCSI on 9-track tape. Thanks, Dave Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA28013 for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:13:27 +1000 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Jul 7 10:13:04 1998 Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133] (may be forged)) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA28008 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:13:21 +1000 (EST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id JAA10688; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 09:43:05 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980707094304.N7792(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 09:43:04 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: djenner(a)halcyon.com, wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Which PC UNIX for old SCSI tape drive? (was: Generating 2.11BSD boot tape) References: <199807060358.NAA07988(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <19980706134828.B6528(a)freebie.lemis.com> <35A125CA.45FB5455(a)halcyon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <35A125CA.45FB5455(a)halcyon.com>; from David C. Jenner on Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 12:30:18PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Monday, 6 July 1998 at 12:30:18 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote: > There hasn't been much traffic here for a while, so maybe I can stir > things up a bit. > > I recently acquired a fabulous 9-track tape drive, an M4 9914, which > has both a SCSI and a Pertec interface. This drive is so smart I > spent a couple of hours playing with it without it being hooked up to > any computer. > > What's nice is that I can presumably get around the "high-cost" > bottleneck of using a tape drive on both a PDP-11 and Intel > machines: use the SCSI interface on the PC where the interface is > cheap (already exists) and use the Pertec interface on the -11 where > the interface is cheap (already exists). Using the opposite interface > on each machine could run up to a total of $2000 US. > > So, what I want to do is read my PUPS archive CD-ROM on an Intel > machine and write appropriate 9-track tapes for the -11. The stumbling > block seems to be software on the Intel side. SCSI software packages > for MS-DOS or Windows 3.1/95/98/NT run $600, $800, even $1500US. > There must be a way of doing a CD-to-Tape generation with a simple > C-language program using one of the "free" OSes: Linux, FreeBSD, > SCO UnixWare, etc. Sure, that's the obvious way to go. > If anyone has any experience or ideas with this, I would appreciate > your input. It would be very easy for me to install and use one of > these OSs on a spare 486 I have. The question is, which is the most > likely to support SCSI on 9-track tape. I think you'll find that they all support SCSI. I'd recommend FreeBSD because I'm involved with it and because it's the closest to 2.11BSD. Next, I'd recommend Linux, because you have the sources. You could have trouble with UnixWare, in which case there wouldn't be much you could do about it. If you do have any problems with FreeBSD, let me know and I'll see what I can do. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA00657 for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 16:24:57 +1000 (EST) >From Kevin Murrell <kevin(a)xpuppy.demon.co.uk> Tue Jul 7 16:20:53 1998 Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA00649 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 16:24:50 +1000 (EST) Received: from (XPUPPY) [193.237.190.229] by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0ytRAe-00009v-00; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 06:24:09 +0000 Received: by XPUPPY with Microsoft Mail id <01BDA978.2E5F7760@XPUPPY>; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 07:23:47 +0100 Message-ID: <01BDA978.2E5F7760@XPUPPY> From: Kevin Murrell <kevin(a)xpuppy.demon.co.uk> To: "'PDP Unix Preservation'" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: DEC in the UK and Dilog Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 07:20:53 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au id QAA00650 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Can anyone shed any light on a company called Dilog. Having acquired two Dilog machines they appear to actually both be PDP-11s. Dilog seemed to have produced DEC compatible hardware for the UK market. In particular the smaller machine was known as a Vixen. This would appear to be a PDP-11/73 with the DEC M8192 processor card. Indeed the processor card is the only actual DEC product. Colleagues that used this machine described it as the portable PDP-11 - however we are not talking laptop here :) The 'Vixen' has a Dilog disk controller with a Seagate ST251 attached. The machine is currently running DSM-11 and recognises the drive as a RA81. I hope to produce a list relating the Dilog part numbers to original DEC part numbers. Any help or suggestions gratefully received. Kevin Murrell Birmingham, England. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA02684 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 01:48:44 +1000 (EST) >From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Wed Jul 8 01:44:14 1998 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA02679 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 01:48:37 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA00178; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 11:44:16 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199807071544.LAA00178(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Newbie Alert: Which is a ``best'' pdp-11 to look for????? In-Reply-To: <199807060358.NAA07988(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "Jul 6, 98 01:58:23 pm" To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 11:44:14 -0400 (EDT) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > All, > The following people now have SCO source licenses for ancient Unix: Neato.... I am beginning to think it might be a fun thing to do. As the newbie aboard, what pdp-11, vax, or other dec machine would be one to shoot for. Some are largish beasts, but for the Joe Homehobby type that wants to run one in the basement, what would be a reasonable combination of parts or units (or a whole machine) to look for? Occasionally machines float up from the bilges here in central NC, USA, and usually they wind up dumpster fodder. Rather than see that happen, if I had a choice, what should I be looking for? For convenience, if there was something that would fit in half a relay rack or so, that might be nice. Also, if it could run with standard cartridge tapes (DC300/450/600) sized things, that would be advantageous, since I have a number of those things and nil reel to reel drives. > I haven't heard from Kirk McKusick, but he's still planning to sell a 4CD > set of all the 4BSD releases from CSRG. The cost is still expected to be > around US$100, but if he gets flooded with requests, this may come down. That would be something worthwhile to have, just for posterity. > Software Tools > -------------- ...... > I don't know Barbera's geographic location. However, would anybody in the > US be prepared to read these tapes for us, and pass the contents to me for > inclusion in the PUPS Archive??! I just checked our folks.... nil reel-to-reel drives anymore..... shucks. One of the technical high schools has the only one left here in NC. Bob Keys p.s. Are there any USA NC folks on the list, or just me? Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA04090 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:15:13 +1000 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Jul 8 10:14:47 1998 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA04085 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:15:06 +1000 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA05047; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:14:47 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:14:47 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199807080014.RAA05047(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: kevin(a)xpuppy.demon.co.uk, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: DEC in the UK and Dilog Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > From: Kevin Murrell <kevin(a)xpuppy.demon.co.uk> Linebreaks please? 72-80 columns would be nice ;) > Can anyone shed any light on a company called Dilog. Not sure if they're still in the DEC business but at one time they were one of the major 3rd party vendors making Qbus and Unibus controllers. > Having acquired two Dilog machines they appear to actually both be PDP-11s. > Dilog seemed to have produced DEC compatible hardware for the UK market. I never heard of Dilog making entire systems. You'd typically buy the box from DEC (but without any controllers or as few as you could order a system from DEC with) and then stuff it with Emulex or Dilog adaptors. > In particular the smaller machine was known as a Vixen. Sounds like an OEM somewhere was buying bare systems from DEC and placing Dilog cards in them. > This would appear to be a PDP-11/73 with the DEC M8192 processor card. Indeed it is. > Indeed the processor card is the only actual DEC product. > Colleagues that used this machine described it as the portable PDP-11 - >however we are not talking laptop here :) What are the dimensions? It likely is a BA-23 box. "Transportable" would be appropriate - unless you've a *huge* (and sturdy) lap ;) > The 'Vixen' has a Dilog disk controller with a Seagate ST251 attached. > The machine is currently running DSM-11 and recognises the drive as a RA81. > I hope to produce a list relating the Dilog part numbers to original DEC > part numbers. It was/is common for controller cards to call anything over ~150mb an 'ra81' just to give the software a diskid it knew about. On the various Dilog cards you should find (either on the spine/handles or the card's front/back) a name. Something like "DQ696" (a disk controller) or "DQ132" (tape controller). If you can find any numbers at all let us know and we can probably id them for you. Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA04178 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:52:45 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 7 months

Re: mkfs on an RL02

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

Hi, Warren. On May 10, 18:26, Warren Toomey wrote: > > For the first time in umpteen years, I need to make a bootable 7th > > Edition system disk on an RL02... > > How many blocks should I leave for swap? Or, to put it another way, > > what magic number pair would people suggest I put in the prototype file > > for the number of blocks and number of inodes? > > The best & only answer here is to consult to xxconf file used to generate > the 7th Edition kernel, as this will tell you how much swap to reserve. I should have thought of that! Steven told me the same thing last night. > Vanilla V7 didn't come with RL02 support, so all I can give you are the > parameters used for the RL02 images I have here with V7: > > rl > tm > root rl 0 > swap rl 0 > swplo 18000 > nswap 2480 That looks the same as mine. > In other words, the filesystem should be no bigger than 18,000 blocks. I had a look in the superblock on a couple of bootable RL02s, and found 18,000. > Distribution V7 had roughly 2,600 files & directories. If I had to > set a value, I'd choose 5,000 or so. I knew about using digits for the blocks instead of a proto file, but I thought it might be safer to specify the number for the inodes. I tried to figure it out from the results of icheck but I'm much happier with your suggestion. I'll let you know how I get on. The reason to do this today is two-fold: One of my packs is getting flaky, so I want to make a good copy, with a clean install (most of mine have lots of localised junk), and our department has an Open Day on Wednesday, and I've been coerced into running a display of old machines. The 11T23 is the easiest PDP for me to move there. Thanks for the help! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA21625 for pups-liszt; Sun, 10 May 1998 21:27:41 +1000 (EST) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Sun May 10 21:48:23 1998 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (2026(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA21620 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 10 May 1998 21:27:33 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA29830; Sun, 10 May 1998 13:48:24 +0200 Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 13:48:23 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> cc: edgee(a)cyberpass.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In! In-Reply-To: <19980507110724.M396(a)freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980510134657.29637B-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Thu, 7 May 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Wed, 6 May 1998 at 20:45:41 -0400, Ed G. wrote: > > Using a new approach, I have re-counted the number of floating point > > operations for the utilities contained in Unix's bin directory. > > According to my results, many important 7th Edition programs such as > > adb, awk and tar make heavy use of floating point on the PDP-11. > > I'll believe this when you pinpoint the instructions. I wouldn't be *that* surprised by these results. For instance, I believe that longs are implemented with FP. And I wouldn't be surprised if a few FP ops were sneaked in to compute some stuff that aren't immediately appearant. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA22385 for pups-liszt; Mon, 11 May 1998 02:30:15 +1000 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mon May 11 02:49:44 1998 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA22380 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 11 May 1998 02:30:09 +1000 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA00593 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Sun, 10 May 1998 09:49:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 09:49:44 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199805101649.JAA00593(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In! Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> > I wouldn't be *that* surprised by these results. For instance, I believe > that longs are implemented with FP. And I wouldn't be surprised if a few > FP ops were sneaked in to compute some stuff that aren't immediately > appearant. It is true that _some_ long arithmetic is done using FP. The long divide is done that way (at least in 2BSD, I've not looked at V7 yet) because it is much much less code to convert the operands to FP, do the divide, and then convert the result back (the alternative is about two pages of code). Different CPUs handle a fault during a double word push to the stack differently, this was a real difficult problem to track down and fix. If during the FP instruction "movfi fr0,-(sp)" the stackpointer becomes invalid some PDP-11 CPUs handle the fault differently. See 2.11BSD update #150 for the details. The C compiler itself did NOT generate FP unless the operands were explicitly FP (float or double). Most C code was 'int' or 'char *' and no FP code was needed or used for that. FP instructions would be clustered together where the libc.a routines were loaded. The 'ldiv' and 'lrem' routines would have several FP instructions close to each other but the rest of the program would have very few. A program such as 'adb' would have a few FP instructions in the routines that display the FP registers. Oh - there's a bug dating back to V7 in adb. The FP registers for a traced/running process do not display correctly (using adb on a core file works fine). Fixed in 2.11 (see update #405) ;-) Steven Schultz Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA22952 for pups-liszt; Mon, 11 May 1998 06:42:17 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 7 months

Re: mkfs on an RL02

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On May 9, 21:43, Pete Turnbull wrote: > I need to make a bootable 7th Edition system disk on an RL02... and then thought, "I wonder if there's some easy way to tell what numbers were used on an existing system disk, if the prototype file no longer exists?" -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA21159 for pups-liszt; Sun, 10 May 1998 17:55:53 +1000 (EST) >From Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com> Sun May 10 18:17:06 1998 Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA21151 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 10 May 1998 17:55:48 +1000 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id EAA12462; Sun, 10 May 1998 04:17:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA29779; Sun, 10 May 1998 01:17:06 -0700 Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 01:17:06 -0700 (PST) From: Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com> To: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Cc: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In! In-Reply-To: <199805080414.AAA28438(a)renoir.op.net> Message-Id: <Pine.SGI.3.95.980510011221.27113A-100000(a)world.std.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, 8 May 1998, Ed G. wrote: > > I'll believe this when you pinpoint the instructions. > > Your skepticism spurred me to examine a Unix utility in depth to see > whether my results hold up. They do. Is it possible that you're mistakenly disassembling embedded data as if it were code? And perhaps that those data items contain arrangements of byte values which translate to FP instructions? -brian. --- Brian "JARAI" Chase | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ | VAXZilla LIVES!!! Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA21206 for pups-liszt; Sun, 10 May 1998 18:05:09 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sun May 10 18:26:23 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA21201 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 10 May 1998 18:05:06 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA02363; Sun, 10 May 1998 18:26:23 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199805100826.SAA02363(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: mkfs on an RL02 To: pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 18:26:23 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <9805092143.ZM1440(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from Pete Turnbull at "May 9, 98 08:43:26 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Pete Turnbull: > I'm looking for some advice... > > For the first time in umpteen years, I need to make a bootable 7th Edition > system disk on an RL02 that previously had some other O/S on it. This disk > has to have the swap space, as well. The machine it will be used on has > 256K bytes RAM. > > How many blocks should I leave for swap? Or, to put it another way, what > magic number pair would people suggest I put in the prototype file for the > number of blocks and number of inodes? The best & only answer here is to consult to xxconf file used to generate the 7th Edition kernel, as this will tell you how much swap to reserve. Vanilla V7 didn't come with RL02 support, so all I can give you are the parameters used for the RL02 images I have here with V7: rl tm root rl 0 swap rl 0 swplo 18000 nswap 2480 In other words, the filesystem should be no bigger than 18,000 blocks. The mkfs manual says: If the prototype file cannot be opened and its name con- sists of a string of digits, mkfs builds a file system with a single empty directory on it. The size of the file system is the value of proto interpreted as a decimal num- ber. The number of i-nodes is calculated as a function of the filsystem size. The boot program is left uninitial- ized. Distribution V7 had roughly 2,600 files & directories. If I had to set a value, I'd choose 5,000 or so. Hope this helps, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA21220 for pups-liszt; Sun, 10 May 1998 18:06:29 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sun May 10 18:27:43 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA21215 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 10 May 1998 18:06:25 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA02382; Sun, 10 May 1998 18:27:43 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199805100827.SAA02382(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: mkfs on an RL02 To: pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 18:27:43 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) In-Reply-To: <9805092146.ZM1447(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from Pete Turnbull at "May 9, 98 08:46:36 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Pete Turnbull: > On May 9, 21:43, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > I need to make a bootable 7th Edition system disk on an RL02... > > and then thought, "I wonder if there's some easy way to tell what numbers > were used on an existing system disk, if the prototype file no longer > exists?" You'd have to disassemble the kernel. Alternatively, consult the size of the free block list on the disk's image. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA21366 for pups-liszt; Sun, 10 May 1998 19:41:33 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 7 months

mkfs on an RL02

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

I'm looking for some advice... For the first time in umpteen years, I need to make a bootable 7th Edition system disk on an RL02 that previously had some other O/S on it. This disk has to have the swap space, as well. The machine it will be used on has 256K bytes RAM. How many blocks should I leave for swap? Or, to put it another way, what magic number pair would people suggest I put in the prototype file for the number of blocks and number of inodes? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA19878 for pups-liszt; Sun, 10 May 1998 06:24:03 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 7 months

Re: First edition Unix manuals

by merlyn＠Geeks.ORG

> On Fri, 8 May 1998, Robert D. Keys wrote: >>> On Thu, 7 May 1998 at 9:05:02 -0400, Robert D. Keys wrote: >>>> I emailed him about the possibility of recreating the roff sources, >>>> an I will probably wind up doing that. Then we will have a working >>>> set of sources for clean copy. >>> >>> Great idea. Keep us posted. >>> >>> Greg >> >> I have the intro and first few manpages of section 1 done so far. >> Maybe a week or so and then if someone will proof them. I will >> port them in original roff source, and then make a troff set. >> Dennis was wanting someone to tackle an html version. Alas, my >> html is not so good. >> > It shouldn't be that hard to make HTML directly from the roff source (I > could probably be persuaded to do something like this, given the roff > source first of course!) Or use programs written already to do that, like RosettaMan (at least I still call it that, the author changed its name). Here's a blurb from its announcement. :: PolyglotMan (nee RosettaMan) is a filter for UNIX manual pages. It :: takes as input man pages for a variety of UNIX flavors and produces as :: output a variety of file formats. Currently PolyglotMan accepts man :: pages from the following flavors of UNIX: Hewlett-Packard HP-UX, AT&T :: System V, SunOS, Sun Solaris, OSF/1, DEC Ultrix, SGI IRIX, Linux, SCO, :: FreeBSD; and produces output for the following formats: printable :: ASCII only (stripping page headers and footers), section and :: subsection headers only, TkMan, [tn]roff, RTF, SGML (soon--I finally :: found a DTD), HTML, MIME, LaTeX, LaTeX 2e, Perl 5's pod. Previously :: <I>PolyglotMan</I> required pages to be formatted by nroff prior to :: its processing; with version 3.0, it prefers [tn]roff source and :: usually can produce results that are better yet. :: :: PolyglotMan improves upon other man page filters in several ways: (1) its :: analysis recognizes the structural pieces of man pages, enabling high :: quality output, (2) its modular structure permits easy augmentation of :: output formats, (3) it accepts man pages formatted with the variant :: macros of many different flavors of UNIX, and (4) it doesn't require :: modification of or cooperation with any other program. :: The home location for PolyglotMan is ftp.cs.berkeley.edu: :: /ucb/people/phelps/tcltk/rman.tar.Z (this is a softlink to the latest, :: numbered version). If you discover a bug and you obtained PolyglotMan :: at some other site, first grab it from this one to see if the problem :: has been fixed. This is only for man pages, but probably could take the papers in ms format and give a rough translation, or hack up polyglotman some to do ms as well.. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA19189 for pups-liszt; Sun, 10 May 1998 01:43:48 +1000 (EST) >From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Sun May 10 02:04:55 1998 Received: from renoir.op.net (root(a)renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA19184 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 10 May 1998 01:43:42 +1000 (EST) Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc2-0f.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.111]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.17 $) with SMTP id MAA00978 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 9 May 1998 12:04:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199805091604.MAA00978(a)renoir.op.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 12:04:55 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Visible Front End-advice? Reply-to: edgee(a)cyberpass.net X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I'd like to write a visible front end for Bob's emulator, but I'm not sure how to go about doing it. What I'd like is another window that shows the state of the emulator--PC, SP, MMR etc.--in real time. Any suggestions/ideas? TIA Ed Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA19863 for pups-liszt; Sun, 10 May 1998 06:21:19 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 7 months

Re: Using P11 emulator (was 2.11BSD installation problems)

by m＠mbsks.franken.de

Mahlzeit The setup looks more complicated than the supnik emulator. So, I'll look tomorrow. What I have noticed is, that there is bsdi and freeBSD mentioned in p11conf but not linux. Does it require a BSD? Mahlzeit endergone Zwiebeltuete -- insanity inside Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA09524 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 08:41:02 +1000 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Thu May 7 09:04:16 1998 Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133] (may be forged)) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA09519 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 08:40:56 +1000 (EST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id IAA02711; Thu, 7 May 1998 08:34:16 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980507083416.B396(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 08:34:16 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: First edition Unix manuals References: <199805061501.QAA08913(a)todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199805061501.QAA08913(a)todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk>; from Tim Bradshaw on Wed, May 06, 1998 at 04:01:21PM +0100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, 6 May 1998 at 16:01:21 +0100, Tim Bradshaw wrote: > In case other people haven't seen this, Dennis Ritchie has (scanned) > versions of these at: > > http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/~dmr Somebody else posted this a few days ago. Does anybody know how to view them? They're in .gif format, and xv only shows me the first page. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA09691 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:45:46 +1000 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Thu May 7 10:08:49 1998 Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA09686 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:45:40 +1000 (EST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id JAA02921; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:38:50 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980507093849.H396(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 09:38:49 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Cc: m(a)mbsks.franken.de, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Using P11 emulator (was 2.11BSD installation problems) References: <199805060638.QAA02895(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <199805062043.GAA03625(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199805062043.GAA03625(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Thu, May 07, 1998 at 06:43:56AM +1000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Thu, 7 May 1998 at 6:43:56 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > Matthias, > Here are some instructions on getting that RP disk image working > with the Begemot P11 2.3 emulator. These should supplement Greg's email. Hey, I thought you were in freezing Tasmania :-) > Running the 2.11BSD RP disk image on the P11 Emulator > > Ok, here's how I got P11-2.3 running. Firstly, I extracted the source code > for P11 from the tarball, and built the emulator in the extracted emu > directory. Note: you need lots of virtual memory to build instab.o. > > With p11 built, I went into ../run, and copied the following files here: > > total 16 > -rw------- 1 root wheel 1562 Apr 22 19:56 mon.help > -rw------- 1 root wheel 648 Apr 22 19:55 p11conf > -rw------- 1 root wheel 4096 Dec 12 1994 qna.rom > -rw------- 1 root wheel 512 Apr 22 19:41 rp.boot > > All except p11conf came from ../emu. I had a hard time getting the p11conf > configuration file working, what with the cpp path etc. So I basically made > a p11conf file which doesn't use any #defines. Here it is: > > > libdir = . > ctrl rl 017774400 0160 4 4000 > end > ctrl rp 017776700 0254 5 4000 > 0 /usr/local/src/RP_211bsd_root 12 > end > ctrl kl > 017777560 060 064 4 ../emu/IOProgs/tty_net -7 -t 10002 > 017776500 0300 0304 4 ../emu/IOProgs/tty_net -7 -t 10003 > end > ctrl mr 017777520 ./rp.boot > end > ctrl lp 017777514 0200 4 > end > ctrl tm 017772520 0224 5 > end > > Note that the emulated RP disk image is at /usr/local/src/RP_211bsd_root. > The number 12 after this is arbitrary, I have no idea what it does. > > Now, to run the emulator using the p11conf above from the run directory, > do ../emu/p11 -d &. You can run it in the background as it doesn't require > any keyboard interaction. Then telnet localhost 10002, and hit Return a few > times. You will see: In fact, you can use any port from 10000 to 10003. They map to /dev/console and /dev/ttyl1 through /dev/ttyl3 (though for some reason /etc/ttys doesn't contain entries for the latter two). >> telnet localhost 10002 > Trying 127.0.0.1... > Connected to localhost. > Escape character is '^]'. > ----- > <---- Hit Return once or twice here > : xp(0,0,0)unix > Boot: bootdev=05000 bootcsr=0176700 > > 2.11 BSD UNIX #11: Tue Jan 6 16:57:02 MET 1998 > root@pdp11.begemot.com:/usr/src/sys/HIPPON > > attaching lo0 > > phys mem = 2097152 > avail mem = 1668352 > user mem = 307200 > > January 8 08:25:02 init: configure system > > lp 0 csr 177514 vector 200 attached > rl 0 csr 174400 vector 160 attached > tm 0 csr 172520 vector 224 attached > xp 0 csr 176700 vector 254 attached > cn 1 csr 176500 vector 300 attached > cn 2 csr 176510 vector 310 skipped: No CSR. > cn 3 csr 176520 vector 320 skipped: No CSR. > cn 4 csr 176530 vector 330 skipped: No CSR. > erase, kill ^U, intr ^C > # > > That's it!! Well, no, at this point you're in single-user mode. To continue, enter ^D: # Fast boot ... skipping disk checks checking quotas: done. Assuming NETWORKING system ... add host 192.109.197.211: gateway 127.1 add net default: gateway freebie.lemis.com starting system logger preserving editor files clearing /tmp standard daemons: update cron accounting. starting network daemons: inetd rwhod printer. starting local daemons:. Wed May 6 10:45:41 CST 1998 May 6 10:45:42 pdp11 init: kernel security level changed from 0 to 1 2.11 BSD UNIX (pdp11.lemis.com) (console) login: I've forgotten what the standard password on root is; I fear it has *not* been removed. It could be 'begemot' or 'begemot1'. To change it, you will need to rebuild passwd, which will not work otherwise. Do that in /usr/src/bin/passwd. If you have trouble, I can send you a passwd binary. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA09714 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:53:29 +1000 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Thu May 7 10:16:40 1998 Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA09709 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:53:24 +1000 (EST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id JAA02935; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:46:41 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980507094640.I396(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 09:46:40 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: Matthias Bruestle <m(a)mbsks.franken.de>, wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Using P11 emulator (was 2.11BSD installation problems) References: <199805062043.GAA03625(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <m0yXC0k-000HqiC(a)mbsks.franken.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <m0yXC0k-000HqiC(a)mbsks.franken.de>; from Matthias Bruestle on Wed, May 06, 1998 at 11:45:58PM +0200 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, 6 May 1998 at 23:45:58 +0200, Matthias Bruestle wrote: > Mahlzeit Mahlzeit (*r�lps*) > The setup looks more complicated than the supnik emulator. So, I'll > look tomorrow. What I have noticed is, that there is bsdi and freeBSD > mentioned in p11conf but not linux. Does it require a BSD? Yes, I think so. The access to the machine goes via the tunnel driver, and that would need to be completed for Linux. The authors don't use Linux, so they haven't done the work. They don't use BSD/OS much any more, so if you are going to install one, FreeBSD is the obvious choice, especially considering the price differential. Of course, any old UNIX user should be using BSD anyway, especially if you want to emulate older BSDs :-) Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA09778 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 10:22:35 +1000 (EST) >From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Thu May 7 10:45:41 1998 Received: from renoir.op.net (root(a)renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA09773 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 10:22:28 +1000 (EST) Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc1-02.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.66]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.16 $) with SMTP id UAA04653 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 6 May 1998 20:45:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199805070045.UAA04653(a)renoir.op.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 20:45:41 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Floating Point-The Results Are In! Reply-to: edgee(a)cyberpass.net X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Using a new approach, I have re-counted the number of floating point operations for the utilities contained in Unix's bin directory. According to my results, many important 7th Edition programs such as adb, awk and tar make heavy use of floating point on the PDP-11. As you know, my first approach was to simple-mindedly examine every word of a given program's disk image to come up with an estimate of the number of floating point operations used by the program. I would like to thank those who pointed out the shortcoming of this approach and offered valuable advice on how to achieve my aim of accurate counts. Based on these comments, I decided to create a full fledged disassembler for the PDP-11. I have tested my program and believe it produces an exact count of all floating point operations. In case you're interested in how my initial estimates compare with the new, precise counts, I list those data below as well. New Approach. uv7 bin directory Programs using 10 or more floating point ops. graph 674 awk 657 spline 389 sa 300 prof 260 iostat 243 t450 222 t300 222 t300s 212 vplot 187 tek 185 adb 128 units 118 random 116 xsend 106 xget 106 tsort 106 tar 106 refer 106 quot 106 nroff 88 factor 88 ac 88 primes 78 poke6 62 lex 51 roff 32 as 18 Old Approach. uv7 bin directory Programs using 100 or more floating point ops. awk 2540 refer 1644 xsend 1326 tbl 1315 graph 1300 xget 1288 adb 1152 eqn 918 enroll 915 neqn 874 nroff 841 make 822 spline 812 yacc 789 sa 714 tar 706 lex 628 tek 618 prof 608 t300s 604 dc 601 vplot 582 iostat 579 t300 576 t450 574 em 530 bc 509 ratfor 474 quot 452 tsort 407 sh 381 expr 380 units 379 ac 365 sort 358 ps 327 restor 323 rmail 321 ed 321 mail 321 ptx 320 egrep 313 ls 310 ps.old 306 m4 304 random 298 su 296 tp 285 ops 282 cu 282 diff 277 pr 275 poke6 275 sed 267 find 267 dump 261 deroff 255 icheck 251 ls.11 249 ld 246 login 240 cptree 230 passwd 227 login.old 218 cc 210 prep 205 at 203 dumpdir 197 join 196 wc 193 tc 192 nm 191 pstat 190 file 187 pr.old 186 crypt 182 date 181 grep 180 ranlib 174 fgrep 172 ncheck 159 checkeq 157 du 155 who 152 as 152 od 151 look 149 roff 149 ar 146 vpr 144 dd 141 tk 141 time 139 rm 138 cb 134 mv 134 comm 133 newgrp 133 dcheck 132 factor 132 rmdir 125 write 125 primes 124 cmp 121 dfOLD 120 df 120 size 117 v6sh 116 vcopy 113 nice 113 col 110 ln 106 sum 105 clri 104 cat 103 tail 103 sleep 101 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA09917 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 11:14:32 +1000 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Thu May 7 11:37:24 1998 Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA09912 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 11:14:26 +1000 (EST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id LAA21487; Thu, 7 May 1998 11:07:24 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980507110724.M396(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 11:07:24 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: edgee(a)cyberpass.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In! References: <199805070045.UAA04653(a)renoir.op.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199805070045.UAA04653(a)renoir.op.net>; from Ed G. on Wed, May 06, 1998 at 08:45:41PM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, 6 May 1998 at 20:45:41 -0400, Ed G. wrote: > Using a new approach, I have re-counted the number of floating point > operations for the utilities contained in Unix's bin directory. > According to my results, many important 7th Edition programs such as > adb, awk and tar make heavy use of floating point on the PDP-11. I'll believe this when you pinpoint the instructions. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA10926 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 18:33:08 +1000 (EST) >From Alan Bain <afrb2(a)hermes.cam.ac.uk> Thu May 7 18:55:29 1998 Received: from red.csi.cam.ac.uk (exim(a)red.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.70]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA10921 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 18:32:59 +1000 (EST) Received: from afrb2 (helo=localhost) by red.csi.cam.ac.uk with local-smtp (Exim 1.92 #1) for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au id 0yXMSf-0002FS-00; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:55:29 +0100 Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 09:55:29 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Bain <afrb2(a)hermes.cam.ac.uk> X-Sender: afrb2(a)red.csi.cam.ac.uk To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In! In-Reply-To: <19980507110724.M396(a)freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95q.980507095248.5706A-100000(a)red.csi.cam.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Thu, 7 May 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Wed, 6 May 1998 at 20:45:41 -0400, Ed G. wrote: > > Using a new approach, I have re-counted the number of floating point > > operations for the utilities contained in Unix's bin directory. > > According to my results, many important 7th Edition programs such as > > adb, awk and tar make heavy use of floating point on the PDP-11. > > I'll believe this when you pinpoint the instructions. > According to my paper copy of the UV7 manual, it is possible to run V7 on a machine with no floating point, and the main problem is when compiling say numeric code. There's a short section on how to do a build if you don't have fp (like me on my 11/34). I think the V7 manual may well be on line; but if not I can do a Xerox of this if it would be useful, Alan Bain Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA10996 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 19:00:04 +1000 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Thu May 7 19:23:06 1998 Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA10988 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 18:59:58 +1000 (EST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id SAA14397; Thu, 7 May 1998 18:53:07 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980507185306.I12200(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 18:53:06 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: Alan Bain <afrb2(a)hermes.cam.ac.uk>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In! References: <19980507110724.M396(a)freebie.lemis.com> <Pine.SOL.3.95q.980507095248.5706A-100000(a)red.csi.cam.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95q.980507095248.5706A-100000(a)red.csi.cam.ac.uk>; from Alan Bain on Thu, May 07, 1998 at 09:55:29AM +0100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Thu, 7 May 1998 at 9:55:29 +0100, Alan Bain wrote: > On Thu, 7 May 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> On Wed, 6 May 1998 at 20:45:41 -0400, Ed G. wrote: >>> Using a new approach, I have re-counted the number of floating point >>> operations for the utilities contained in Unix's bin directory. >>> According to my results, many important 7th Edition programs such as >>> adb, awk and tar make heavy use of floating point on the PDP-11. >> >> I'll believe this when you pinpoint the instructions. >> > According to my paper copy of the UV7 manual, it is possible to run V7 on > a machine with no floating point, and the main problem is when compiling > say numeric code. There's a short section on how to do a build if you > don't have fp (like me on my 11/34). I think the V7 manual may well be > on line; but if not I can do a Xerox of this if it would be useful, The Seventh Edition manuals are available in a number of places, including of course the PUPS archive, but dmr has also put them on the web at http://plan9.bell-labs.com/7thEdMan/index.html. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA11609 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 22:45:50 +1000 (EST) >From "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Thu May 7 23:05:02 1998 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA11603 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 22:45:44 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA02117; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:05:02 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199805071305.JAA02117(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: First edition Unix manuals In-Reply-To: <19980507083416.B396(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "May 7, 98 08:34:16 am" To: grog(a)lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 09:05:02 -0400 (EDT) Cc: tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > On Wed, 6 May 1998 at 16:01:21 +0100, Tim Bradshaw wrote: > > In case other people haven't seen this, Dennis Ritchie has (scanned) > > versions of these at: > > > > http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/~dmr > > Somebody else posted this a few days ago. Does anybody know how to > view them? They're in .gif format, and xv only shows me the first > page. > > Greg He put up postscript versions, too. I emailed him about the possibility of recreating the roff sources, an I will probably wind up doing that. Then we will have a working set of sources for clean copy. Bob Keys Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA13158 for pups-liszt; Fri, 8 May 1998 08:42:43 +1000 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Fri May 8 09:02:36 1998 Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA13153 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 8 May 1998 08:42:37 +1000 (EST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id IAA16737; Fri, 8 May 1998 08:32:36 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980508083236.N12200(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 08:32:36 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Cc: tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: First edition Unix manuals References: <19980507083416.B396(a)freebie.lemis.com> <199805071305.JAA02117(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199805071305.JAA02117(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>; from Robert D. Keys on Thu, May 07, 1998 at 09:05:02AM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Thu, 7 May 1998 at 9:05:02 -0400, Robert D. Keys wrote: >> On Wed, 6 May 1998 at 16:01:21 +0100, Tim Bradshaw wrote: >>> In case other people haven't seen this, Dennis Ritchie has (scanned) >>> versions of these at: >>> >>> http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/~dmr >> >> Somebody else posted this a few days ago. Does anybody know how to >> view them? They're in .gif format, and xv only shows me the first >> page. >> >> Greg > > He put up postscript versions, too. I don't see them at http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/1stEdman.html. Where are they? > I emailed him about the possibility of recreating the roff sources, > an I will probably wind up doing that. Then we will have a working > set of sources for clean copy. Great idea. Keep us posted. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA14100 for pups-liszt; Fri, 8 May 1998 13:52:44 +1000 (EST) >From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Fri May 8 14:14:03 1998 Received: from renoir.op.net (root(a)renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA14094 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 8 May 1998 13:52:36 +1000 (EST) Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc1-01.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.65]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.17 $) with SMTP id AAA28438; Fri, 8 May 1998 00:14:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199805080414.AAA28438(a)renoir.op.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> To: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 00:14:03 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: Multipart/Mixed; boundary=Message-Boundary-293 Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In! Reply-to: edgee(a)cyberpass.net CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-reply-to: <19980507110724.M396(a)freebie.lemis.com> References: <199805070045.UAA04653(a)renoir.op.net>; from Ed G. on Wed, May 06, 1998 at 08:45:41PM -0400 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk --Message-Boundary-293 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body > I'll believe this when you pinpoint the instructions. Your skepticism spurred me to examine a Unix utility in depth to see whether my results hold up. They do. According to my count, tar uses 106 floating point operations. Here are the first few. The complete list, tar3.txt, is attached as well for your perusal. If you'd like to look at the complete disassembled code for tar, let me know. [root@oskar uv7]# ../dis/disuv7.pl < tar | grep ';17' file header: 410 37400 4254 27422 20270 0 0 1 read 16128 bytes prog string is 16128 bytes 0: SETD ;170011 20532: STCFD F0,(R1) ;176011 20562: STF F0,(R1) ;174011 22406: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424 22410: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 22460: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424 22462: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 22620: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424 22622: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 24124: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004 24130: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 26616: LDF F0,#56200 ;172427 056200 I chose tar as an example because it is an important utility and because it is a relatively heavy user of floating point (as guaged by the number of floating point ops contained in tar). The following routines in 7th Edition tar appear to use floating point: ~_filbuf ~_innum ~atof ~cvt ~ecvt ~fcvt ~gcvt ~isatty ~main ~mktemp The addresses of these routines, as listed in tar's symbol table--see attached file symlisttar.txt--correspond to those of the disassembled floating point ops in tar. I've learned a lot while responding to the criticisms offered by you and others on this list. Thank you. Ed --Message-Boundary-293 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Text from file 'TAR3.TXT' [root@oskar uv7]# ../dis/disuv7.pl < tar | grep ';17' file header: 410 37400 4254 27422 20270 0 0 1 read 16128 bytes prog string is 16128 bytes 0: SETD ;170011 20532: STCFD F0,(R1) ;176011 20562: STF F0,(R1) ;174011 22406: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424 22410: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 22460: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424 22462: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 22620: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424 22622: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 24124: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004 24130: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 26616: LDF F0,#56200 ;172427 056200 26622: STF F0,177732(R5) ;174065 177732 26676: CLRF 177762(R5) ;170465 177762 26710: LDF F0,177762(R5) ;172465 177762 26714: CMPF F0,177732(R5) ;173465 177732 26720: CFCC ;170000 26724: LDF F0,#41040 ;172427 041040 26730: MULF F0,177762(R5) ;171065 177762 26742: LDCIF F1,R1 ;177101 26744: ADDF F0,F1 ;172001 26746: STF F0,177762(R5) ;174065 177762 27006: LDF F0,177762(R5) ;172465 177762 27012: CMPF F0,177732(R5) ;173465 177732 27016: CFCC ;170000 27022: LDF F0,#41040 ;172427 041040 27026: MULF F0,177762(R5) ;171065 177762 27040: LDCIF F1,R1 ;177101 27042: ADDF F0,F1 ;172001 27044: STF F0,177762(R5) ;174065 177762 27304: CLRF 177762(R5) ;170465 177762 27314: LDF F0,#40200 ;172427 040200 27320: STF F0,177752(R5) ;174065 177752 27324: LDF F0,#40640 ;172427 040640 27330: STF F0,177742(R5) ;174065 177742 27344: LDF F0,177742(R5) ;172465 177742 27350: MULF F0,F0 ;171000 27352: STF F0,177742(R5) ;174065 177742 27366: LDF F0,177752(R5) ;172465 177752 27372: MULF F0,177742(R5) ;171065 177742 27376: STF F0,177752(R5) ;174065 177752 27422: LDF F0,177762(R5) ;172465 177762 27426: DIVF F0,177752(R5) ;174465 177752 27434: LDF F0,177762(R5) ;172465 177762 27440: MULF F0,177752(R5) ;171065 177752 27444: STF F0,177762(R5) ;174065 177762 27462: LDF F0,177762(R5) ;172465 177762 27466: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 27500: STF F0,177762(R5) ;174065 177762 27512: NEGF F0 ;170700 27514: STF F0,177762(R5) ;174065 177762 27520: LDF F0,177762(R5) ;172465 177762 32720: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004 32724: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 32764: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004 32770: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 33060: CLRF F0 ;170400 33062: CMPF F0,4(R5) ;173465 000004 33066: CFCC ;170000 33100: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004 33104: NEGF F0 ;170700 33106: STF F0,4(R5) ;174065 000004 33120: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004 33124: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 33136: STF F0,4(R5) ;174065 000004 33146: CLRF F0 ;170400 33150: CMPF F0,177762(R5) ;173465 177762 33154: CFCC ;170000 33160: CLRF F0 ;170400 33162: CMPF F0,4(R5) ;173465 000004 33166: CFCC ;170000 33202: LDF F0,177762(R5) ;172465 177762 33206: DIVF F0,#41040 ;174427 041040 33212: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 33224: STF F0,177752(R5) ;174065 177752 33230: ADDF F0,43662 ;172067 010426 33234: MULF F0,#41040 ;171027 041040 33240: STCFI F0,R0 ;175400 33252: CLRF F0 ;170400 33254: CMPF F0,177762(R5) ;173465 177762 33260: CFCC ;170000 33276: LDF F0,177752(R5) ;172465 177752 33302: STF F0,4(R5) ;174065 000004 33310: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004 33314: MULF F0,#41040 ;171027 041040 33320: STF F0,177752(R5) ;174065 177752 33324: CMPF F0,#40200 ;173427 040200 33330: CFCC ;170000 33414: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004 33420: MULF F0,#41040 ;171027 041040 33424: STF F0,4(R5) ;174065 000004 33436: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004 33442: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 33454: STF F0,4(R5) ;174065 000004 33460: LDF F0,177752(R5) ;172465 177752 33464: STCFI F0,R0 ;175400 33666: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004 33672: STEXP F0,R0 ;175000 33700: LDEXP F0,R0 ;176400 33702: CFCC ;170000 33710: LDF F0,43672 ;172467 007756 33716: LDF F0,43672 ;172467 007750 33722: NEGF F0 ;170700 34112: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004 34116: MODF F0,#40200 ;171427 040200 34122: STF F1,@14(R5) ;174175 000014 [root@oskar uv7]# --Message-Boundary-293 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Text from file 'symlisttar.txt' ~main~usage~dorep~endtape=003004 ~getdir~passtap=003414 ~putfile=003566 ~doxtrac=005656 ~dotable=006776 ~putempt=007126 ~longt~pmode~select~checkdi=007506 ~onintr~onquit~onhup~onterm~tomodes=010132 ~checksu=010344 ~checkw~respons=010560 ~checkup=010750 ~done~prefix~getwdir=011302 ~lookup~bsrch~cmp~readtap=012704 ~writeta=013350 ~backtap=013644 ~flushta=014044 ~copy~freopen=014146 ~fseek~rewind~fread~fwrite~system~fopen~scanf~fscanf~sscanf~_doscan=016056 ~_innum~_instr~_getccl=021242 ~fprintf=021376 ~printf~sprintf=021532 ~ungetc~_filbuf=022002 ~gcvt~_strout=024570 ~_flsbuf=025130 ~fflush~_cleanu=025702 ~fclose~_endope=026072 ~create~_findio=026516 ~atof~atoi~ctime~localti=027716 ~sunday~gmtime~asctime=031220 ~dysize~ct_numb=031560 ~malloc~free~realloc=032422 ~ecvt~fcvt~cvt~isatty~mktemp~stty~gtty~strcat~strcmp~strcpy --Message-Boundary-293-- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA14844 for pups-liszt; Fri, 8 May 1998 19:54:45 +1000 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Fri May 8 20:16:15 1998 Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA14839 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 8 May 1998 19:54:38 +1000 (EST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id TAA18750; Fri, 8 May 1998 19:46:16 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980508194615.O12200(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 19:46:15 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: edgee(a)cyberpass.net Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In! References: <199805070045.UAA04653(a)renoir.op.net>; <19980507110724.M396(a)freebie.lemis.com> <199805080414.AAA28438(a)renoir.op.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199805080414.AAA28438(a)renoir.op.net>; from Ed G. on Fri, May 08, 1998 at 12:14:03AM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, 8 May 1998 at 0:14:03 -0400, Ed G. wrote: Content-Description: Mail message body >> I'll believe this when you pinpoint the instructions. > > Your skepticism spurred me to examine a Unix utility in depth to see > whether my results hold up. They do. > > According to my count, tar uses 106 floating point operations. Here > are the first few. The complete list, tar3.txt, is attached as > well for your perusal. If you'd like to look at the complete > disassembled code for tar, let me know. > > [root@oskar uv7]# ../dis/disuv7.pl < tar | grep ';17' > file header: 410 37400 4254 27422 20270 0 0 1 > read 16128 bytes > prog string is 16128 bytes > 0: SETD ;170011 > 20532: STCFD F0,(R1) ;176011 > 20562: STF F0,(R1) ;174011 > 22406: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424 > 22410: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 > 22460: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424 > 22462: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 > 22620: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424 > 22622: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 > 24124: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004 > 24130: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 > 26616: LDF F0,#56200 ;172427 056200 > > I chose tar as an example because it is an important utility and > because it is a relatively heavy user of floating point (as guaged > by the number of floating point ops contained in tar). I don't know what the code above is intended to do, but it's not floating point. At the very best, it would indicate the use of the floating point registers for straightforward data moves. I stand by my assertion that tar doesn't use floating point, neither in the Seventh Edition nor elsewhere. For the fun of it, I took the source of tar from the Seventh Edition (/usr/src/cmd/tar/tar.c) and compiled it on 2.11BSD. I had some minor compilation problems due to different directory structures, which I solved by #ifdefing out the following code: #if 0 for (j=0; j < DIRSIZ; j++) *cp2++ = dbuf.d_name[j]; *cp2 = '\0'; close(infile); putfile(buf, cp); infile = open(".", 0); i++; lseek(infile, (long) (sizeof(dbuf) * i), 0); #endif I think we can agree that they don't contain FP code. Here are some results: [23] root--> cc -n -s -O tar.c -S [24] root--> grep -i ldf tar.s [25] root--> grep -i mul tar.s > The following routines in 7th Edition tar appear to use floating > point: > >> _filbuf >> _innum >> atof >> cvt >> ecvt >> fcvt >> gcvt >> isatty >> main >> mktemp atof, cvt, ecvt, fcvt and gcvt are conversion routines which use floating point, so I can agree that they would contain FP code which, however, would not be used. isatty is a library routine which is simple enough to quote: /* * Returns 1 iff file is a tty */ #include <sgtty.h> isatty(f) { struct sgttyb ttyb; if (gtty(f, &ttyb) < 0) return(0); return(1); } Evidently there's no FP code there. It's fun to go looking for things like this. But never trust anything, especially not your own judgement, until you have a couple of different ways to prove it. You have the sources there; go ahead and check them out. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA15293 for pups-liszt; Fri, 8 May 1998 23:10:26 +1000 (EST) >From "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Fri May 8 23:28:40 1998 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA15288 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 8 May 1998 23:10:19 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA03767; Fri, 8 May 1998 09:28:40 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199805081328.JAA03767(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: First edition Unix manuals In-Reply-To: <19980508083236.N12200(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "May 8, 98 08:32:36 am" To: grog(a)lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 09:28:40 -0400 (EDT) Cc: tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > On Thu, 7 May 1998 at 9:05:02 -0400, Robert D. Keys wrote: > > I emailed him about the possibility of recreating the roff sources, > > an I will probably wind up doing that. Then we will have a working > > set of sources for clean copy. > > Great idea. Keep us posted. > > Greg I have the intro and first few manpages of section 1 done so far. Maybe a week or so and then if someone will proof them. I will port them in original roff source, and then make a troff set. Dennis was wanting someone to tackle an html version. Alas, my html is not so good. Bob Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA15447 for pups-liszt; Fri, 8 May 1998 23:48:43 +1000 (EST) >From Alan Bain <afrb2(a)hermes.cam.ac.uk> Sat May 9 00:08:38 1998 Received: from red.csi.cam.ac.uk (red.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.70]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA15435 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 8 May 1998 23:47:16 +1000 (EST) Received: from afrb2 (helo=localhost) by red.csi.cam.ac.uk with local-smtp (Exim 1.92 #1) id 0yXnpG-00028L-00; Fri, 8 May 1998 15:08:38 +0100 Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 15:08:38 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Bain <afrb2(a)hermes.cam.ac.uk> X-Sender: afrb2(a)red.csi.cam.ac.uk To: "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> cc: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>, tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: First edition Unix manuals In-Reply-To: <199805081328.JAA03767(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95q.980508150740.5409B-100000(a)red.csi.cam.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, 8 May 1998, Robert D. Keys wrote: > > On Thu, 7 May 1998 at 9:05:02 -0400, Robert D. Keys wrote: > > > I emailed him about the possibility of recreating the roff sources, > > > an I will probably wind up doing that. Then we will have a working > > > set of sources for clean copy. > > > > Great idea. Keep us posted. > > > > Greg > > I have the intro and first few manpages of section 1 done so far. > Maybe a week or so and then if someone will proof them. I will > port them in original roff source, and then make a troff set. > Dennis was wanting someone to tackle an html version. Alas, my > html is not so good. > It shouldn't be that hard to make HTML directly from the roff source (I could probably be persuaded to do something like this, given the roff source first of course!) Alan Bain Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA15594 for pups-liszt; Sat, 9 May 1998 00:14:37 +1000 (EST) >From Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> Sat May 9 00:35:45 1998 Received: from aiai.ed.ac.uk (eigg.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.41.7]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA15587 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 9 May 1998 00:13:57 +1000 (EST) Received: (from tfb@localhost) by aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA20682; Fri, 8 May 1998 15:35:45 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 15:35:45 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199805081435.PAA20682(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Cc: grog(a)lemis.com (Greg Lehey), pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: First edition Unix manuals In-Reply-To: <199805081328.JAA03767(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> References: <19980508083236.N12200(a)freebie.lemis.com> <199805081328.JAA03767(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.14 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk * Robert D Keys wrote: > I have the intro and first few manpages of section 1 done so far. > Maybe a week or so and then if someone will proof them. I will > port them in original roff source, and then make a troff set. > Dennis was wanting someone to tackle an html version. Alas, my > html is not so good. I could probably manufacture HTML from roff reasonably rapidly, assuming the originals are vaguely clean. I used to do this for a living at one piunt (:). --tim Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA16019 for pups-liszt; Sat, 9 May 1998 03:03:10 +1000 (EST) >From Jason Stevens <Jason.Stevens(a)aexp.com> Sat May 9 03:25:16 1998 Received: from gw.aexp.com (gw.aexp.com [205.138.230.66]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA16014 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 9 May 1998 03:03:03 +1000 (EST) Received: by gw.aexp.com; id KAA05009; Fri, 8 May 1998 10:24:50 -0700 (MST) Received: from mailhub1.ec.aexp.com(148.171.243.131) by gw.aexp.com via gwmail (v99) id xmajh7726; Fri, 8 May 98 10:24:10 -0700 X400-Received: by mta AmexPHXMTA in /c=us/admd=attmail/prmd=amex/; Relayed; 08 May 1998 10:25:16 -0700 X400-Received: by /c=us/admd=attmail/prmd=amex/; Relayed; 08 May 1998 10:25:16 -0700 X400-MTS-Identifier: [/c=us/admd=attmail/prmd=amex/; 0D35C35533FFC066-AmexPHXMTA] Content-Identifier: 0D35C35533FFC066 Content-Return: Allowed X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 ( 22 ) Conversion: Allowed Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text Disclose-Recipients: Prohibited Alternate-Recipient: Allowed X400-Originator: Jason.Stevens(a)aexp.com X400-Recipients: non-disclosure; Message-Id: <0D35C35533FFC066*/c=us/admd=attmail/prmd=amex/o=trs/ou=HUB1/ou=AMEX/s=Stevens/g=Jason/@MHS> Date: 08 May 1998 10:25:16 -0700 From: Jason Stevens <Jason.Stevens(a)aexp.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Return requested) Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In! MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Could it be possible that all the floating point calls are part of the crt.0 initialization libs?! They may be in there as part of a initialization routeen to detect a fp, and use it if it's there, although I really doubt tar would really need an fp call at all.. It sounds like some kind of generic startup thing.. Unfortunatly I don't have any source to anything at the moment... If anyone wants to dive check the startup libs... Oh well until then, I'm just waiting for SCO to send me my no.. :) TTYL! Jason Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA19024 for pups-liszt; Sun, 10 May 1998 00:52:46 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 7 months

Re: Installation of 2.11BSD (II)

by m＠mbsks.franken.de

Mahlzeit According to Greg Lehey: > Well, I started an answer, and decided that Steven would be able to > answer better, but since you mention my name, OK, here I am. Thanks. :) > > Is this a problem with the distribution, with the emulator or with > > the compiler (gcc 2.7.2.1)? > First, the compiler is certainly not gcc. That would never fit in the The compiler which compiled the emulator is gcc. Log time ago I compiled someones emulator with gcc 2.5.8 and it did only work without any optimization. > nor that it's easy to set up. It took me quite a while. Take a look > at the files in ftp://ftp.lemis.com/pub/pups. They are: Fine, I will try it this night or tomorrow. Thanks endergone Zwiebeltuete -- insanity inside Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA09143 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 06:20:53 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu May 7 06:43:56 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA09138 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 06:20:48 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA03625; Thu, 7 May 1998 06:43:56 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199805062043.GAA03625(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Using P11 emulator (was 2.11BSD installation problems) To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 06:43:56 +1000 (EST) Cc: m(a)mbsks.franken.de, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199805060638.QAA02895(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "May 6, 98 04:38:21 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Matthias, Here are some instructions on getting that RP disk image working with the Begemot P11 2.3 emulator. These should supplement Greg's email. Warren Running the 2.11BSD RP disk image on the P11 Emulator Ok, here's how I got P11-2.3 running. Firstly, I extracted the source code for P11 from the tarball, and built the emulator in the extracted emu directory. Note: you need lots of virtual memory to build instab.o. With p11 built, I went into ../run, and copied the following files here: total 16 -rw------- 1 root wheel 1562 Apr 22 19:56 mon.help -rw------- 1 root wheel 648 Apr 22 19:55 p11conf -rw------- 1 root wheel 4096 Dec 12 1994 qna.rom -rw------- 1 root wheel 512 Apr 22 19:41 rp.boot All except p11conf came from ../emu. I had a hard time getting the p11conf configuration file working, what with the cpp path etc. So I basically made a p11conf file which doesn't use any #defines. Here it is: libdir = . ctrl rl 017774400 0160 4 4000 end ctrl rp 017776700 0254 5 4000 0 /usr/local/src/RP_211bsd_root 12 end ctrl kl 017777560 060 064 4 ../emu/IOProgs/tty_net -7 -t 10002 017776500 0300 0304 4 ../emu/IOProgs/tty_net -7 -t 10003 end ctrl mr 017777520 ./rp.boot end ctrl lp 017777514 0200 4 end ctrl tm 017772520 0224 5 end Note that the emulated RP disk image is at /usr/local/src/RP_211bsd_root. The number 12 after this is arbitrary, I have no idea what it does. Now, to run the emulator using the p11conf above from the run directory, do ../emu/p11 -d &. You can run it in the background as it doesn't require any keyboard interaction. Then telnet localhost 10002, and hit Return a few times. You will see: % telnet localhost 10002 Trying 127.0.0.1... Connected to localhost. Escape character is '^]'. ----- <---- Hit Return once or twice here : xp(0,0,0)unix Boot: bootdev=05000 bootcsr=0176700 2.11 BSD UNIX #11: Tue Jan 6 16:57:02 MET 1998 root@pdp11.begemot.com:/usr/src/sys/HIPPON attaching lo0 phys mem = 2097152 avail mem = 1668352 user mem = 307200 January 8 08:25:02 init: configure system lp 0 csr 177514 vector 200 attached rl 0 csr 174400 vector 160 attached tm 0 csr 172520 vector 224 attached xp 0 csr 176700 vector 254 attached cn 1 csr 176500 vector 300 attached cn 2 csr 176510 vector 310 skipped: No CSR. cn 3 csr 176520 vector 320 skipped: No CSR. cn 4 csr 176530 vector 330 skipped: No CSR. erase, kill ^U, intr ^C # That's it!! Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA09164 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 06:26:14 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu May 7 06:49:24 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA09159 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 06:26:11 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA03699; Thu, 7 May 1998 06:49:24 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199805062049.GAA03699(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: First edition Unix manuals To: tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk (Tim Bradshaw) Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 06:49:24 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) In-Reply-To: <199805061501.QAA08913(a)todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk> from Tim Bradshaw at "May 6, 98 04:01:21 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Tim Bradshaw: > In case other people haven't seen this, Dennis Ritchie has (scanned) > versions of these at: > > http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/~dmr > > --tim Thanks Tim! Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA09393 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 07:24:42 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 7 months

Installation of 2.11BSD (II)

by m＠mbsks.franken.de

Mahlzeit I'm using 2.11_rp_unknown[1] an the newest version of the supnik emulator. When I'm compiling a kernel (with the newest 2.11BSD sources), I get at the end: ./checksys unix overlay 6 is empty and there are non-empty overlays following it. System will occupy 156960 bytes of memory (including buffers and clists). end {0052310} nbuf {0012014} buf {0033654} nproc {0012002} proc {0042454} ntext {0012004} text {0051350} nfile {0012010} file {0047370} ninode {0012006} inode {0012076} ncallout {0012012} callout {0024562} ucb_clist {0012020} nclist {0012016} ram_size {0000000} xitdesc {0012074} quotdesc {0000000} namecache {0025242} _iosize {0010030} **** SYSTEM IS NOT BOOTABLE. **** *** Exit 1 then I get very often Bus Errors: # ./config SONJA ./config: 1041 Bus error - core dumped Copying standard files to ../SONJA. ./config: 1051 Bus error - core dumped ./config: 1052 Bus error - core dumped ./config: ../SONJA/ioconf.c: cannot create ./config: ../SONJA/param.c: cannot create Setting configuration options for SONJA. c./config: ../SONJA/loop.h: cannot create ^C# ^C # mkdir Bus error - core dumped # mkdir X Bus error - core dumped # I configured the emulator with 1MB RAM. I compiled it with and without optimization. Is this a problem with the distribution, with the emulator or with the compiler (gcc 2.7.2.1)? Mahlzeit endergone Zwiebeltuete [1] The "distributed" 2.11BSD is not so stable. It is often killing the filesystem. -- insanity inside Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA06684 for pups-liszt; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:14:59 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed May 6 16:38:21 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA06678 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:14:55 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA02895; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:38:21 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199805060638.QAA02895(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Installation of 2.11BSD (II) To: m(a)mbsks.franken.de (Matthias Bruestle) Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 16:38:21 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <m0yWxdJ-000HprC(a)mbsks.franken.de> from Matthias Bruestle at "May 6, 98 08:24:49 am" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Matthias Bruestle: > I'm using 2.11_rp_unknown[1] an the newest version of the supnik emulator. [that's in the PUPS Archive, for those without a src license] > When I'm compiling a kernel (with the newest 2.11BSD sources), I get > [problems] > > I configured the emulator with 1MB RAM. I compiled it with and without > optimization. Is this a problem with the distribution, with the emulator > or with the compiler [used to build the emulator?] (gcc 2.7.2.1)? > > The "distributed" 2.11BSD is not so stable. It is often killing the > filesystem. Hmm, Steven Schultz did find yet another bug in Bob's emulator which fixed the crashing vi problem. As Steven knows heaps more about 2.11 than I, here are some general purpose suggestions from me. + Manually fsck on bootup. Does that help prevent fs corruption, or is the system killing the filesystem on a regular basis? + Can you build a GENERIC kernel? Does it boot? + The 2.11_rp_unknown disk image was built with the new P11 emulator from the Begemot crew. You might try compiling and installing this emulator, and see how 2.11BSD performs. Anyway, Steven might offer some better advice! Greg Lehey might be able to provide you with the P11 config files he uses. I've got the new P11 built at home, but I can't get the files on it from work. I'm off for a short break, but I'll be back Monday. Best of luck with it. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA06826 for pups-liszt; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:43:53 +1000 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Wed May 6 17:07:10 1998 Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA06818 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:43:47 +1000 (EST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id QAA00723; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:37:11 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980506163710.A329(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 16:37:10 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, Matthias Bruestle <m(a)mbsks.franken.de> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Installation of 2.11BSD (II) References: <m0yWxdJ-000HprC(a)mbsks.franken.de> <199805060638.QAA02895(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199805060638.QAA02895(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Wed, May 06, 1998 at 04:38:21PM +1000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, 6 May 1998 at 16:38:21 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Matthias Bruestle: >> I'm using 2.11_rp_unknown[1] an the newest version of the supnik emulator. > > [that's in the PUPS Archive, for those without a src license] > >> When I'm compiling a kernel (with the newest 2.11BSD sources), I get >> [problems] >> >> I configured the emulator with 1MB RAM. I compiled it with and without >> optimization. Is this a problem with the distribution, with the emulator >> or with the compiler [used to build the emulator?] (gcc 2.7.2.1)? >> >> The "distributed" 2.11BSD is not so stable. It is often killing the >> filesystem. > > Hmm, Steven Schultz did find yet another bug in Bob's emulator which fixed > the crashing vi problem. As Steven knows heaps more about 2.11 than I, here > are some general purpose suggestions from me. > >> Manually fsck on bootup. Does that help prevent fs corruption, > or is the system killing the filesystem on a regular basis? > >> Can you build a GENERIC kernel? Does it boot? > >> The 2.11_rp_unknown disk image was built with the new P11 > emulator from the Begemot crew. You might try compiling and > installing this emulator, and see how 2.11BSD performs. > > Anyway, Steven might offer some better advice! Greg Lehey might be able > to provide you with the P11 config files he uses. I've got the new P11 > built at home, but I can't get the files on it from work. Well, I started an answer, and decided that Steven would be able to answer better, but since you mention my name, OK, here I am. One point: > Is this a problem with the distribution, with the emulator or with > the compiler (gcc 2.7.2.1)? First, the compiler is certainly not gcc. That would never fit in the address space of a PDP-11. Secondly, I'd guess it's the emulator. I don't think many people have tried 2.11BSD on the Supnik emulator. I'm using the Begemot emulator (Emulators/P11-2.3 in the archive). I get: [5] root--> cd /usr/src/sys/GRANDPA/ [6] root--> ./checksys unix System will occupy 295600 bytes of memory (including buffers and clists). end {0122636} nbuf {0013562} buf {0053542} nproc {0013550} proc {0077060} ntext {0013552} text {0121416} nfile {0013556} file {0115726} ninode {0013554} inode {0013646} ncallout {0013560} callout {0044274} ucb_clist {0013566} nclist {0013564} ram_size {0000000} xitdesc {0013644} quotdesc {0000000} namecache {0053150} _iosize {0000000} [7] root--> I won't pretend that the documentation of the interpreter is ideal, nor that it's easy to set up. It took me quite a while. Take a look at the files in ftp://ftp.lemis.com/pub/pups. They are: -rw-r--r-- 1 root lemis 11477 May 6 16:18 README-emu -rw-r--r-- 1 root lemis 1746 May 6 16:18 p11conf -rwxr-xr-x 1 root lemis 315 May 6 16:19 run_211 README-emu is a brief (and hurried) description of what I did to get the emulator working, p11conf is my current configuration, and run_211 is the command file I run to actually start the emulator. Note that what you get when you run the emulator is just the diagnostic console; to actually use the machine, you need to telnet to ports 10000 to 10003. Anybody interested in so doing can telnet to pdp11.lemis.com and log in as guest, password "Today only". Don't break anything, please--I haven't checked security too much. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA08014 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 00:38:54 +1000 (EST) >From Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> Thu May 7 01:01:21 1998 Received: from aiai.ed.ac.uk (eigg.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.41.7]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA08009 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 00:38:45 +1000 (EST) Received: from todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk (todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.105.40]) by aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA04718 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:01:21 +0100 (BST) Received: (tfb@localhost) by todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) id QAA08913; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:01:21 +0100 Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 16:01:21 +0100 Message-Id: <199805061501.QAA08913(a)todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk> From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: First edition Unix manuals X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.14 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In case other people haven't seen this, Dennis Ritchie has (scanned) versions of these at: http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/~dmr --tim Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA08241 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 01:53:08 +1000 (EST) >From "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Thu May 7 02:12:37 1998 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA08236 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 01:53:01 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA00456; Wed, 6 May 1998 12:12:37 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199805061612.MAA00456(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: Early unix on simulators --- partial newbie success ---yeah! In-Reply-To: <199805061501.QAA08913(a)todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk> from Tim Bradshaw at "May 6, 98 04:01:21 pm" To: tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk (Tim Bradshaw) Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 12:12:37 -0400 (EDT) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I managed to get the Sim23b pdp11 emulator running on the v5 unix. It is hard to believe a 25K kernel....(:+}}..... so much for code bloat over the years. My goal is to try to bring it up on a KSR35 hooked up to a headless pc (386 board in a closet box) on the dos emulator, or whatever would be the minimal required to get it going. Can anyone suggest ways to reach that goal? I am still having no luck with the Ersatz 2.0 emulator on dos, because I can't seem to get the incantations right. I get to the @ prompt, but after entering unix, it just sits for a bit, the HD spins, and after a few seconds it is back at the @ prompt. There is still some magick mystical juju required (albeit I am the dummy here....(:+\\.....) I could port a stripped Linux 0.98 kernel maybe, to get it up, and try that, but I was hoping the dos emulator would run with it. Any suggestions and pointers are appreciated. Thanks, and kudos to all the PUPS crew and Dennis Ritchie for resurrecting the old v5 image. This kindof makes computing fun, for a change..... Now, where did I stash that KSR35..... Bob Keys..... Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA08328 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 02:15:26 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 7 months

Installation of 2.11BSD

by m＠mbsks.franken.de

Mahlzeit My hardware: Mentec M70 with 512kB RAM (that must be enough) which can boot from DX DY DL DU DM DB MS MT and has 4 serial ports. MSCP/DU-Controller which can boot from DM, DP, DL, DR, MS, MT, MU, SY, DU. It is connected to a 1.2MB-5.25"-FDD and a MFM-HDD of unknown size wich I will get tomorrow. (I have now the dox for my controller.) Kernel: To use these 4 serial ports, do I have to set "NKL 4" or are these not KL11/DL11s? One of these is the normal console unter RT-11. Is "NBUF 32" OK for 512kB RAM? Should I set UCB_CLIST NO or YES? Installation: I think there are three possible ways of installing it: 1) Boot from a RT-11-Floppy and transfer the whole disk with rtkerm. The disk will be bigger than 32MB, so this does not work? 2) Boot from a RT-11-Floppy and transfer the root-fs and the swap-partition then boot BSD and transfer somehow the usr-data (kermit? write simple program?). This sould also install the disklabel. 3) Boot from a BSD-Floppy, disklabel, mkfs, transfer data (kermit? write simple program?). The kernel and diskimages will allways be made on an emulator. What do you think is the best/easiest way? Or have you a better idea? (Make a tape and use the TU58-emulator?) Thanks endergone Zwiebeltuete -- insanity inside Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA06631 for pups-liszt; Wed, 6 May 1998 15:59:52 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 7 months

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TUHS May 1998