8 Jul
2022
8 Jul
'22
1:40 p.m.
Well, what the title says. Some folks here wandered what the future
may be. I suppose destroying Linux, or making it irrelevant. What
would happened, if systemd development went in two ways, one
gnu-licenced and the other commercial?
https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Systemd-Creator-Mic…
--
Regards,
Tomasz Rola
--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... **
** **
** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola@bigfoot.com **
8 Jul
8 Jul
4:26 p.m.
Tomasz Rola <rtomek(a)ceti.pl>pl>, 2022-07-08 09:40 (+0200):
Well, what the title says. Some folks here wandered
what the future
may be. I suppose destroying Linux, or making it irrelevant.
Microsoft of today is really not the Microsoft of the 1990s. There are a
lot of people at MSFT working on Linux in different forms.
What would happened, if systemd development went in
two ways, one
gnu-licenced and the other commercial?
I suppose more distributions would look at the alternatives like OpenRC
or S6.
--
MC, https://hack.org/mc/
9 Jul
9 Jul
6:29 a.m.
On Fri, Jul 08, 2022 at 12:26:23PM +0200, Michael Cardell Widerkrantz wrote:
Maybe. I am still trying to evaluate various alternatives to Debian
and I am not so sure. Debian was so bloody good (for me) that finding
alternative is hard (especially that I expect to do something with
computer at the same time).
--
Regards,
Tomasz Rola
--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... **
** **
** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola@bigfoot.com **
Tomasz Rola <rtomek(a)ceti.pl>pl>, 2022-07-08 09:40
(+0200):
If you know this first hand, then great. I admit, after 1995 I have
only used anything MS about few times a year or so. The experience was
always a bit miserable - my index finger got stiff from constant
clicking, my mouse-arm got tired from precision moves etc. You may
thing I am exagerrating, in such case try moving your finger up and
down for an hour - I was just trying to port my Linux workflow under
Windows, and I am sure if I really had to work under Windows, I would
have invented some shortcuts to save my finger. But I digress.
You wrote, MS is not the same as in 1990. I think, sure, thirty years
later, they would not be the same. But you seem to imply that "so
old-thinking guys are out of the doors already". This might
be. However, I am more likely to believe that "old thinking guys" made
sure to hire new guys who would be able to get the torch from their
cold hands and carry on. On the surface, a business is all new ("hey
we hire new people every day"). Under the surface, a business is
almost the same ("why change something that works so well").
Well, what the title says. Some folks here
wandered what the future
may be. I suppose destroying Linux, or making it irrelevant.
Microsoft of today is really not the Microsoft of the 1990s. There are a
lot of people at MSFT working on Linux in different forms. What would
happened, if systemd development went in two ways, one
gnu-licenced and the other commercial?
I suppose more distributions would look at the alternatives like OpenRC
or S6. 
7:52 a.m.
Hello, Tomasz,
On Sat, Jul 09, 2022 at 02:29:07AM +0200, Tomasz Rola wrote:
Maybe. I am still trying to evaluate various
alternatives to Debian
and I am not so sure. Debian was so bloody good (for me) that finding
alternative is hard (especially that I expect to do something with
computer at the same time).
https://www.devuan.org/
Devuan GNU+Linux is a fork of Debian without systemd that allows
users to reclaim control over their system by avoiding
unnecessary entanglements and ensuring Init Freedom.
Cheers,
Ángel
2:35 p.m.
On Sat, Jul 09, 2022 at 03:52:30AM +0200, Angel M Alganza wrote:
Hello, Tomasz,
[...]
Devuan GNU+Linux is a fork of Debian without systemd
that allows
users to reclaim control over their system by avoiding
unnecessary entanglements and ensuring Init Freedom.
Thank you. I have Devuan on a (very short) list. Right now I am
testing a systemd based Debian derivative, to see what I will be
missing. Testing takes time etc. I am not very impressed, so
far. During last months, nothing I would like to have so much that I
would go with systemd. It just behaves predictably, which is a lot,
but not really lot. After all, it is still a Linux.
However, performance seems to be worse. I have a really old (like,
decade) desktop with really antique Debian (pre-systemd) and it seems
to behave faster than a newish (bought from second hand) laptop with
integrated CPU/GPU and Parrot installed on it. The clocks - I always
downclock as a rule. So old Debian is clocked @800MHz and Parrot
@1100MHz. Hence Parrot really could do a bit more, but nope. Feels
sluggish, but I might be making this up. After all, I do not like the
whole idea of systemd and stuff. Well, a small difference - Debian
runs on four cores, and Parrot cannot. On four cores it overheats and
shuts down whenever I try to use it - be it computing control sums or
compiling. In order to be any usable at all I have to boot it with
maxcpus=1. This probably tells more about quality of laptop than
Parrot. But I will see more when I install something else on it.
--
Regards,
Tomasz Rola
--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... **
** **
** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola@bigfoot.com **
2:59 p.m.
On Sat, Jul 09, 2022 at 10:35:53AM +0200, Tomasz Rola wrote:
Thank you. I have Devuan on a (very short) list. Right
now I am
testing a systemd based Debian derivative, to see what I will be
Well, Devuan isn't really a Debian based (different) distro.
It actually is Debian without SystemD, as it used to be.
Also, it is maintained by a few of previously Debian devs.
Cheers,
Ángel
11 Jul
11 Jul
3:39 a.m.
On Jul 9, 2022, at 1:35 AM, Tomasz Rola <rtomek(a)ceti.pl> wrote:
However, performance seems to be worse.
There's a reason replacements for init and /etc/rc like launchd, upstart, and systemd
exist.
I just wish Linux hadn't rolled its own and had gone with launchd. Of course,
that'd have also required having a reasonable kernel-level IPC system like Mach.
-- Chris
8:11 p.m.
Chris Hanson wrote in
<2598435A-B098-4449-9327-86BE981A2CD0(a)eschatologist.net>et>:
|On Jul 9, 2022, at 1:35 AM, Tomasz Rola <rtomek(a)ceti.pl> wrote:
|>
|> However, performance seems to be worse.
|
|There's a reason replacements for init and /etc/rc like launchd, upstart, \
|and systemd exist.
|
|I just wish Linux hadn't rolled its own and had gone with launchd. \
|Of course, that'd have also required having a reasonable kernel-level \
|IPC system like Mach.
Oh! I finally find a second good thing of systemd: it does not
use XML resource files!
The other is the "startup-completed" notification of fork-fork-
away daemons via socket, but of course the daemons have to be
especially coded to use that.
The third is that administrators can play easy? But they do need
ansible, puppet or whatever there is (i am luckily no admin).
I do not give in the fourth, as of course you can integrate
anything into one via dynamic modules, and it gives you a bit.
With just four separate programs running? Like kernel, systemd,
emacs and a graphical web browser? I personally see three errors
here, but do not get away without the browser myself.
To me the problem is that you always have those trains that
everybody jumps on. You could pimp login(1) to use "reap
control", like Linux prctl(2) PR_SET_CHILD_SUBREAPER, and
FreeBSD's procctl(2) does that even better (with _STATUS,
_GETPIDS, _KILL available). You could integrate PAM to use REAP
if sessions get used. (PAM is a desaster because it does not,
actually. As i found out. Heh.) You could offer some additional
inittab(5) keywords that do this reaping, that unshare daemons
early, in effect something like
[filesystem overlay setup]
cd /
ip netns exec ${netns} \
/usr/bin/env -i TERM=${TERM} DISPLAY=${DISPLAY} \
/usr/bin/unshare --ipc --uts --pid --fork \
--mount --mount-proc ${kill_child} \
${rooter} ${prog}
And then you have the isolation from a normal POSIX shell level.
But no, all these things are left behind and noone cares no more,
even though it would be relatively easy to integrate all these
isolation and control techniques into small and UNIXish
environments. Only corpses! At least in Linux user space land.
--steffen
|
|Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear,
|der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one
|einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off
|(By Robert Gernhardt)
12 Jul
12 Jul
3:04 a.m.
Tomasz Rola <rtomek(a)ceti.pl>pl>, 2022-07-09 02:29 (+0200):
Alpine is very popular. It's using OpenRC and eyeing S6, I've heard.
https://www.alpinelinux.org/
--
MC, https://hack.org/mc/
On Fri, Jul 08, 2022 at 12:26:23PM +0200, Michael
Cardell Widerkrantz wrote:
I do. I have friends at Microsoft.
Tomasz Rola <rtomek(a)ceti.pl>pl>, 2022-07-08
09:40 (+0200):
If you know this first hand, then great. Well, what the title says. Some folks here
wandered what the future
may be. I suppose destroying Linux, or making it irrelevant.
Microsoft of today is really not the Microsoft of the 1990s. There are a
lot of people at MSFT working on Linux in different forms. I admit, after 1995 I have only used anything MS about
few times a
year or so.
Ha! I haven't actually used anything from Microsoft for a long time.
Last time I was forced to was in 2004, I think. I even had to use Word!
When I found VBacs which turned MS Word into a resemblance of Emacs my
productivity soured.
https://www.rath.ca/Misc/VBacs/
SWMBO has a Windows laptop, though, so I still see it sometimes.
I suppose more
distributions would look at the alternatives like OpenRC
or S6.
Maybe. I am still trying to evaluate various alternatives to Debian
and I am not so sure. 
5:01 a.m.
On Mon, 11 Jul 2022, Michael Cardell Widerkrantz wrote:
Ha! I haven't actually used anything from
Microsoft for a long time.
Last time I was forced to was in 2004, I think. I even had to use Word!
When I found VBacs which turned MS Word into a resemblance of Emacs my
productivity soured.
My home is now 100% M$-free; the last time I had to use it was to update
the firmware on a GPS device which is now useless because of the GPS
rollover bug. In the meantime, WINE works quite well.
Alpine is very popular. It's using OpenRC and
eyeing S6, I've heard.
https://www.alpinelinux.org/
Alpine? Where do Penguin/OS users get off using the name of a well-known
MUA (the one I'm using now)?
-- Dave
1:58 p.m.
New subject: Alpine, was: Systemd Creator Lands At Microsoft
On 12 Jul 2022 09:01 +1000, from dave(a)horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall):
If Wikipedia is to be believed, the MUA came later.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_Linux> "Initial release August
2005"
as compared to
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_(email_client)> "Initial release December
20, 2007"
to say nothing of all the other uses <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine>
--
Michael Kjörling • https://michael.kjorling.se • michael(a)kjorling.se
“Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”
Alpine is very
popular. It's using OpenRC and eyeing S6, I've heard.
Alpine? Where do Penguin/OS users get off using the name of a well-known
MUA (the one I'm using now)?
9:34 p.m.
New subject: Alpine, was: Systemd Creator Lands At Microsoft
On Tue, Jul 12, 2022 at 12:59 AM Michael Kjörling <michael(a)kjorling.se>
wrote:
On 12 Jul 2022 09:01 +1000, from dave(a)horsfall.org
(Dave Horsfall):
well-known
Yeah well where do those file compression Johnny-come-latelies get off on
stealing the name of an Infocom-format Z-machine interpreter?
Adam
Alpine is
very popular. It's using OpenRC and eyeing S6, I've heard.
Alpine? Where do Penguin/OS users get off using the name of a MUA (the one I'm using now)?
If
Wikipedia is to be believed, the MUA came later.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_Linux> "Initial release August
2005"
as compared to
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_(email_client)> "Initial release
December 20, 2007"
9:56 p.m.
Michael Cardell Widerkrantz <mc(a)hack.org>rg>, 2022-07-11 23:04 (+0200):
When I found VBacs which turned MS Word into a
resemblance of Emacs my
productivity soured.
Ahem. "soared". But funny misspelling. I was definitely turning sour by
being forced to use Windows. Thankfully I dual booted.
--
MC, https://hack.org/mc/
4:02 a.m.
New subject: Alpine, was: Systemd Creator Lands At Microsoft
Adam Thornton wrote in
<CAP2nic2GZg6S+WVzVGx89Hn5qzkyFBuYGbieA_A20Tv9H06knQ(a)mail.gmail.com>om>:
|On Tue, Jul 12, 2022 at 12:59 AM Michael Kjörling <michael(a)kjorling.se>
|wrote:
|> On 12 Jul 2022 09:01 +1000, from dave(a)horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall):
|>>> Alpine is very popular. It's using OpenRC and eyeing S6, I've
heard.
|>>
|>> Alpine? Where do Penguin/OS users get off using the name of a
|> well-known
|>> MUA (the one I'm using now)?
|> If Wikipedia is to be believed, the MUA came later.
|> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_Linux> "Initial release August \
|> 2005"
|> as compared to
|> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_(email_client)> "Initial release
|> December 20, 2007"
|
|Yeah well where do those file compression Johnny-come-latelies get off on
|stealing the name of an Infocom-format Z-machine interpreter?
I "always" thought of it as a "You can call me Al" extension, or
better continuation, of the Pine mailer with the Pico editor (that
i liked), which are much, much older.
(TonyPine would have been an alternative: "Fix it again Tony".)
--steffen
|
|Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear,
|der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one
|einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off
|(By Robert Gernhardt)
5:34 a.m.
New subject: Alpine, was: Systemd Creator Lands At Microsoft
On Tue, 12 Jul 2022, Michael Kjörling wrote:
If Wikipedia is to be believed, the MUA came later.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_Linux> "Initial release August
2005"
as compared to
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_(email_client)> "Initial release
December 20, 2007"
Any fool can update Wikipedia (and they do).
I give you PINE (Alpine's (predecessor):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_(email_client)
1992... I've been using it (then Alpine) since about then.
-- Dave
1:36 p.m.
New subject: Alpine
On 13 Jul 2022 09:34 +1000, from dave(a)horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall):
Sure; I used Pine in 1995-1996 or so, and then again around 2001-2002,
so yes, Pine clearly predates a Linux distribution with an initial
release in mid-2005. But your post was about _Alpine_, not _Pine_ (or
at least, I can't immediately find any "Pine Linux", whereas Alpine
Linux is rather well-known), so that's what I was responding to.
--
Michael Kjörling • https://michael.kjorling.se • michael(a)kjorling.se
“Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”
If Wikipedia
is to be believed, the MUA came later.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_Linux> "Initial release August
2005"
as compared to
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_(email_client)> "Initial release
December 20, 2007"
Any fool can update Wikipedia (and they do).
I give you PINE (Alpine's (predecessor):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_(email_client)
1992... I've been using it (then Alpine) since about then.
675
days inactive
680
days old
16 comments
9 participants
participants (9)
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Adam Thornton -
Angel M Alganza -
Chris Hanson -
Dave Horsfall -
Lars Brinkhoff -
Michael Cardell Widerkrantz -
Michael Kjörling -
Steffen Nurpmeso -
Tomasz Rola