21 Jul
2025
21 Jul
'25
3:40 p.m.
On Mon, Jul 21, 2025 at 9:20 AM Chet Ramey via COFF <coff(a)tuhs.org> wrote:
On 7/21/25 11:00 AM, Larry McVoy wrote:
I learned emacs first because 'vi' was deemed too heavy-weight for or
poor VAX 11/750. I'd used other non-modal editors prior to that (WordStar,
EDT, and a raft of variants built on top of TECO-11 visual mode). It's
modal vs non-modal for me that's the deal killer for having vi be my 'daily
driver'.
So it's not smart or not. It's what's familiar. non-modal editors are what
I learned first, and I'm never going to outgrow that. Coupled with LISP
that's LISPy enough for my editing needs, and I'm good to go. I can use
the bits other folks have done to expand it, I can expand what I need and
fix annoying bits of c-mode or whatever.
I'm wondering if maybe us "less
smart" people, just don't have the extra
cycles it takes to love emacs?
I don't think it's that. I think it's simpler: you put the time in to
master something -- or at least become familiar with it. Mastery breeds
familiarity breeds comfort. Even if after the fact you try to `spend
time' with another tool or editor, you're bucking the already-established
comfort level you've obtained. I have a working knowledge of vi -- readline has vi
key bindings, and POSIX
specifies them -- but I wouldn't say I have a comfort level there. Just
enough to get around.
Same. What do you mean I can't just type... Oh! Right! I gotta get into
insert mode, there, ok, I can change my nameserver line in /etc/resolv.conf
that DHCP got wrong (and now, to go debug that setup), or whatever
the simple task is. It's an extra step for me to get into the swing of things.
It also goes back to "do we use the extra keys on the keyboard or not" debate
that was raging in the 80s. Were you an alt-meta-super fan, or a
alt-meta-coke-bottle critic? Is F6 more natural (since you have 'paste' on
it) or control-v? Emacs lives in the in between where it uses control and meta
characters to get the job done, not just simple ASCII (and maybe the arrow
keys) like vi traditionally fit into. It's far less than things like
EDT, TPU, WordStar,
etc in its use of function keys than they are, but assumes a wider
interface than
just hjkl or wasd.
At one point I used to say "I know vi just well enough to get emacs working"
though these days I can do a bit more than that.
But in all the decades at this point of discussion on emacs vs vi, I've never
shaken the feeling it's modal vs non-modal and 'fat' key set vs thin. The
'mine
is bigger' feature set competitions just didn't ever ring really true.
It was always
'my brain types and edits like this' at the end of the day, it seems.[*]
Warner
[*] Since this is my impression from hundreds of such conversations and
debates, I'll grant that it's likely a gross simplification and some
people chose
vim because of syntax highlighting or emacs could analyze pinhead (or you,
if you wanted the original ai-chat-bot Eliza).