Just watched this the other day.
The original story is from 1958 written by Isaac Asimov, the short
movie was made in 1978
All the Troubles of the World
https://youtu.be/svIXTDeZzDg
Nothing to do with UNIX, but a reminder that occasionally long thought
lost manuals still pop-up.
"Researchers will be able to gain a deeper understanding of what’s
considered the world’s oldest surviving (digital) computer after its
long-lost user manual was unearthed. The Z4, which was built in 1945,
runs on tape, takes up most of a room and needs several people to
operate it. The machine now takes residence at the Deutsches Museum in
Munich, but it hasn’t been used in quite some time."
https://www.engadget.com/oldest-computer-manual-zuse-z4-161214346.html
I finally got around to tidying up a little shell tool I wrote that turns a network interface you specify into a bridge, and then creates some tap devices with owning user and group you specify and attaches them to that bridge.
This gets around having to run emulated older systems under sudo if you want networking to work.
It’s mostly intended for the PiDP-11/simh, but it also works fine with klh10 and TOPS-20.
Maybe it will be useful to someone else.
https://github.com/athornton/brnet <https://github.com/athornton/brnet>
Adam
Moving to COFF
On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 7:56 PM John Cowan <cowan(a)ccil.org> wrote:
> Rereading that made me wonder: if someone retargeted an old compiler (pcc,
> say) to produce i386 code,
>
I thought SVR3's was PCC (maybe PCC2). But I thought I remember that is
had a i386 code. Certainly by SVR4 time.
IIRC, the time frame of SVR3's front end would have been original ANSI
(i.e. White Book V2).
> how much faster would it run than a VAX?
>
In the time frame of the SVR3 (mid/late 80s), the Intel processors was
faster than the 1MIP (780 circa 1977) in raw computes. The issue was
always I/O. Most PC did not have the same amount of I/O HW that much
earlier Vaxen.
> I see that there is a pcc derivative at <http://pcc.ludd.ltu.se/>, but
> supposedly it has been heavily rewritten for C99 compliance and other
> things.
>
And my point is that by the time of C99, it was a different language than
the early 1970s when Dennis created fit or the original PDP-11/20 he and
Ken used for the first UNIX kernel and tools implementations.
"When I read commentary about suggestions for where C should go, I often
think back and give thanks that it wasn't developed under the advice of a
worldwide crowd." dmr
In the early 1970s, when computing capabilities were tiny, tiny, tiny
compared to even a cell phone today, and those resources were typically
time-shared across multiple users, queueing network models became a
primary tool to analyze and improve system performance. Queueing models
had been studied for years before regarding communication systems and
other systems, but networks of queues seemed especially apropos for
understanding time-sharing systems.
Computer Systems Performance Modeling, which Professor K.M. Chandy and I
wrote in 1978-9, previously published by Pearson Education, Inc. is now
out of print. We are making PDF copies of lightly edited versions
available under a Creative Commons license.
https://notes.technologists.com/notes/2020/08/25/computer-systems-performan…
Ed MacNair and I published two books based on The Research Queueing
Package, RESQ: Simulation of Computer Communication Systems and Elements
of Practical Performance Modeling. Those books, previously published by
Pearson Education, Inc. are now out of print. We are making PDF copies
of lightly edited versions available under a Creative Commons license.
Though we have written two prior articles about RESQ history, those did
not cover subsequent development, so another recap seems appropriate
now. https://notes.technologists.com/notes/2020/08/25/remembering-resq/
(Mainstream Videoconferencing: A Developer’s Guide to Distance
Multimedia, which Joe Duran and I wrote from 1994-96, became available
again in 2008:
https://notes.technologists.com/notes/2008/02/14/mainstream-videoconferenci…)
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(This should probably be on COFF because I don't think this has much
to do with UNIX.)
On 11 Jul 2020 22:22 -0400, from doug(a)cs.dartmouth.edu (Doug McIlroy):
> a loudspeaker hooked to the low-order bit of the accumulator played
> gentle white noise in the background. The noise would turn into a
> shriek when the computer got into a tight loop,
How did that work? I can see how tying the low-order bit of the
accumulator to a loudspeaker would generate white noise as the
computer is doing work; but I fail to see how doing so would even
somewhat reliably generate a shrieking sound when the computer is in a
tight loop. Please, enlighten me. :-)
--
Michael Kjörling • https://michael.kjorling.se • michael(a)kjorling.se
“Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”
On Friday, 21 August 2020 at 17:23:11 +0200, Steffen Nurpmeso wrote:
>
> It was Schopenhauer who definetely said
>
> Neminem laede, imo omnes, quantum potes, juva!
How about that, I even understood that. But for the fun of it I put
it through Google Translate, and the result is worth showing:
Truth injures no one, nay more, all, as much as you are able to:
strengthen the faint!
Of course, if you drop the !, it changes to:
Truth injures no one, nay more, all, as much as you can, help the
How I love syntax-independent translation!
Greg
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Noel Chiappa writes:
> > From: Larry
> > It's possible the concept existed in some other OS but I'm not
> > aware of it.
>
> It's pretty old. Both TENEX and ITS had the ability to map file pages
> into a process' address space.
I have a date for when this feature was announced for ITS. The previous
.CBLK UUO could not access files.
RMS 09/30/73 10:13:28 JOBS! BE FIRST IN YOUR TREE TO INSERT A DISK FILE PAGE!
SEE .INFO.;CORBLK ORDER FOR DETAILS.
(This is now redirected to COFF.)
In related news: A rather complete full dump of the MIT-AI PDP-10 from
1971 has been found. It includes full source code and documentation for
the system, including ITS version 671, DDT, TECO, MIDAS, (MAC)LISP,
CHESS (MacHack), MUDDLE, LOGO, MACSYMA, etc.
--> COFF
Paul Winalski <paul.winalski(a)gmail.com> wrote:
mmap() / $CRETVA
> The VMS image activator (runtime loader in Unix-speak) used these
> primitives to load program images into virtual memory. More than one
> process can map the same region of a file. This is how sharing of
> read-only program segments such as .text is implemented.
>
> I think Burroughs OSes had this concept even before VMS.
Did MULTICS work the same way?
The Manchester / Ferranti Atlas had virtual memory in 1962 but I don't
know how much they used it for multiprogramming (and by implication shared
text segments) - it didn't do timesharing until later, but AIUI virtual
memory helped it to have an exceptionally good job throughput for the
time. Perhaps their motivation was more to do with having a good shared
implementation of overlays and paged IO.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-level_store
Tony.
--
f.anthony.n.finch <dot(a)dotat.at> http://dotat.at/
reject all prejudice and discrimination based upon race, colour,
religion, age, disability, gender, or sexual orientation
moving to COFF ...
Thomas Paulsen <thomas.paulsen(a)firemail.de> wrote:
> >I'm sure everyone here knows this, but the Cray 1 (I think, the one
> that had what looked like a circular bench seat around the bottom) was
> designed like that because the clock was at the center and the clock
> signal went to all the boards and was right because all the clock lines
> to the boards were the same length.<
>
> you mean that? https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/Cray-1-deutsches-museum…
I found the Cray 1M site planning reference manual very interesting -
here's a summary with links to the actual documents
http://www.howtospotapsychopath.com/2012/06/15/they-called-it-big-iron-for-…
Tony.
--
f.anthony.n.finch <dot(a)dotat.at> http://dotat.at/
Ardnamurchan Point to Cape Wrath: North or northeast 3 to 5, becoming variable
2 at times. Slight or moderate, becoming smooth or slight between Barra and
Canna. Fog patches. Moderate or good, occasionally very poor.
(Sent to COFF as too far afield for a subthread)
On 29/07/2020, John Gilmore <gnu(a)toad.com> wrote (in part):
[...]
> There was another chapter to the "tar wars" after UNIX and after POSIX.
First, thank you for the chapter. #6-)
> I put the pdtar code into the public domain, so it could be widely used.
> This produced a variety of support headaches. [...] This eventually led me to
> understand more of the value in using the GNU General Public License.
As everyone knows, a lot of Usenet source was released into the public
domain. I have been told, time and again, by IP lawyers never to
release s/w unencumbered. Without an appropriate encumbrance, the
author may be liable for any damage caused by said s/w -- as insane
as that sounds. (I was told that there is even case law but I cannot
remember what.) So your support woes could have been worse.
N.
[Moved to COFF]
On Monday, 10 August 2020 at 9:53:14 +1000, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> Interesting; I was taught it was "Chebychev", which as second ranking
> doesn't even come close to "Chebyshev"...
>
> Possibly a cultural thing; I went to an Australian university (UNSW).
I don't think so, more like coincidence. I first came across the name
as "Chebyshev" at the CSIRO in Melbourne. But the difference in
spelling could be attributed to the person doing the transliteration:
"ch" in French corresponds in sound to "sh" in English.
Greg
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> From: Will Senn
> So, where's a good place to pester folks for help in 211BSD, v6, v7 when
> it's less along the historical interest line and more along the help I
> can't get this or that working line?
> ...
> The question may be 211bsd, but the same type of questions often
> arise for the research unixes as well. Any suggestions about where to
> throw these kinds of vintage unix tech support questions?
I'd just say TUHS. Your questions would me more on-topic than 1/3 of the posts.
Noel
So, where's a good place to pester folks for help in 211BSD, v6, v7 when
it's less along the historical interest line and more along the help I
can't get this or that working line?
As an example, I'm having some challenges with the networking in 211,
right now. I finally (after on again off again attempts over 2 years)
gotten both a vanilla 211BSD p195 system to be accessible via telnet on
my local lan and am able to ping out to the internet, if I so choose,
and Andru Luvisi's 211BSD p495 doing networking as well. Thanks to
Andru's notes and Warner Losh's blog. In both cases, everything just
"works"... well most things work :). In the 195 system, I don't seem to
be able to get hostname set correctly:
Assuming NETWORKING system ...
sparks: bad value
add net default: gateway 192.168.2.1
Whereas on the 495 system, it sets fine...
Assuming NETWORKING system ...
add host sparks: gateway localhost
add net default: gateway 192.168.2.1
and on the 195 system, name resolution doesn't seem to function, whereas
it does on the 495 system.
On neither of the systems do I know how to display the routes (no
netstat and route doesn't seem to have a display mode).
Anyhow, I'm not really asking the question here (feel free to answer it
though, if you feel so inclined), but it's the kind of question that I
sit on not knowing where to ask it. I know that I often tread the
knife's edge between interesting and annoying on some of my questions in
TUHS and SIMH because of my lack of knowledge around these systems, but
I really enjoy working in them when they work and have found that
everything I learn interacting with these ancient systems significantly
enhances my skills in the modern realm at least with regards to
FreeBSD/Linux and Mac. Whereas, on the other hand, most of what I know
about the modern systems doesn't really have an easily accessible analog
in ancient unix. Take the question above, to view the route table in
freebsd - it's just netstat -r, easypeasy, what the heck it might be in
211bsd is a complete mystery. Grepping the manual turns up nothing that
I recognize, which is more often the case than I'd like to admit.
The question may be 211bsd, but the same type of questions often arise
for the research unixes as well. Any suggestions about where to throw
these kinds of vintage unix tech support questions?
Regards,
Will
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This topic is still primarily UNIX but is getting near the edge of COFF, so
I'll CC there if people want to follow up.
As I mentioned to Will, during the time Research was doing the work/put out
their 'editions', the 'releases' were a bit more ephemeral - really a set
of bits (binary and hopefully matching source, but maybe not always)
that become a point in time. With 4th (and I think 5th) Editions it was a
state of disk pack when the bits were copies, but by 6th edition, as Noel
points out, there was a 'master tape' that the first site at an
institution received upon executing of a signed license, so the people at
each institution (MIT, Purdue, CMU, Harvard) passed those bits around
inside.
But what is more, is what Noel pointed out, we all passed source code and
binaries between each other, so DNA was fairly mixed up [sorry Larry - it
really was 'Open Source' between the licensees]. Sadly, it means some
things that actually were sourced at one location and one system, is
credited sometimes credited from some other place the >>wide<< release was
in USG or BSD [think Jim Kulp's Job control, which ended up in the kernel
and csh(1) as part in 4BSD, our recent discussions on the list about
more/pg/less, the different networking changes from all of MIT/UofI/Rand,
Goble's FS fixes to make the thing more crash resilient, the early Harvard
ar changes - *a.k.a.* newar(1) which became ar(1), CMU fsck, e*tc*.].
Eventually, the AT&T Unix Support Group (USG) was stood up in Summit, as I
understand it, originally for the Operating Companies as they wanted to use
UNIX (but not for the licenses, originally). Steve Johnson moved from
Research over there and can tell you many more of the specifics.
Eventually (*i.e.* post-Judge Green), distribution to the world moved from
MH's Research and the Patent Licensing teams to USG and AT&T North Carolina
business folks.
That said, when the distribution of UNIX moved to USG in Summit, things started
to a bit more formal. But there were still differences inside, as we have
tried to unravel. PWB/TS and eventually System x. FWIW, BSD went
through the same thing. The first BSD's are really the binary state of the
world on the Cory 11/70, later 'Ernie.' By the time CSRG gets stood
up because their official job (like USG) is to support Unix for DARPA, Sam
and company are acting a bit more like traditional SW firms with alpha/beta
releases and a more formal build process. Note that 2.X never really
went through that, so we are all witnessing the wonderful efforts to try to
rebuild early 2.X BSD, and see that the ephemeral nature of the bits has
become more obvious.
As a side story ... the fact is that even for professional SW houses, it
was not as pure as it should be. To be honest, knowing the players and
processes involved, I highly doubt DEC could rebuild early editions of VMS,
particularly since the 'source control' system was a physical flag in
Cutler's office.
The fact is that the problem of which bits were used to make what other
bits was widespread enough throughout the industry that in the mid-late 80s
when Masscomp won the bid to build the system that Nasa used to control the
space shuttle post-Challenger, a clause of the contract was that we have
put an archive of the bits running on the build machine ('Yeti'), a copy of
the prints and even microcode/PAL versions so that Ford Aerospace (the
prime contractor) could rebuild the exact system we used to build the
binaries for them if we went bankrupt. I actually, had a duplicate of that
Yeti as my home system ('Xorn') in my basement when I made some money for a
couple of years as a contract/on-call person for them every time the
shuttle flew.
Anyway - the point is that documentation and actual bits being 100% in sync
is nothing new. Companies work hard to try to keep it together, but
different projects work at different speeds. In fact, the 'train release'
model is what is usually what people fall into. You schedule a release of
some piece of SW and anything that goes with it, has to be on the train or
it must wait for the next one. So developers and marketing people in firms
argue what gets to be the 'engine' [hint often its HW releases which are a
terrible idea, but that's a topic for COFF].
On 8/1/20 9:13 AM, Larry McVoy wrote:
> My dad wasn't famous, but he had a PhD in physics. He never asked people
> to call him Dr McVoy. As we grew up and realized he could be called that
> we asked him why not. He said it sounds fancy, the only time he used it
> was when he wanted a table at a crowded restaurant (which was very rare,
> Madison didn't pay him very well).
>
> Somehow that stuck with me and I've always been sort of wary of people
> who use their title. The people I admire never did.
>
> Someone on the list said that they thought Dennis wouldn't appreciate
> it if we got his PhD official. I couldn't put my finger on it at the
> time, but I agreed. And I think it is because the people who are really
> great don't need or want the fancy title. I may be over thinking it,
> but Dennis does not need the title, it does nothing to make his legacy
> better, his legacy is way way more than that title.
>
> Which is a long ramble to say I agree with Markus.
I agree with your dad, completely, it's fancy. I too am uncomfortable
with the title. I think it's because I was a street kid and as the
saying goes, you can take the kid out of the street, but you can't take
the street out of the kid. I work in the academy, so it's prevalent, but
I find it pretentious to insist on people calling you doctor. I ask
people to just call me Will. It's interesting to watch the reactions.
Some folks are glad to, some are fearful to (mostly students), and some
outright reject the proposition (mostly those pretentious types).
With regards to Dennis and his view on things, I haven't the slightest
clue, but if someone were to present him with an honorary degree, it
would be their attempt to recognize his exemplary contributions and
would not be meant as anything other than highest praise. As someone who
loves programming in C, I'm a direct beneficiary of his legacy and would
gladly support his being recognized in this manner. I know several
people who have been granted honorary doctorates, at least one of who
had no prior degree. They accepted and enjoyed telling their close
friends about their now having to call them doctor, but otherwise taking
it as a compliment and honor and not bothering about the title.
Will
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> From: Lars Brinkhoff
> I have seen conflicting information in sources dating from the 70s when
> the TV-11 and XGP-11 were very much in use.
> For several reasons, I believe the TV-11 was the first machine attached
> to the 10-11 interface, and the XGP-11 came second. This would lend
> some weak support for the theory that the first would be a 11/20 and the
> second a 11/10.
Yeah, but Clem's note reinforces my vague memory that the XGP-11 was an
-11/20.
I wish we had a picture of the Knight TV system (the system, not a
terminal). It's a extremely significant system - I believe it my have been the
first bit-mapped computer display system ever; and thus the prototype, in some
sense, for the display of every single personal compupter (including phones)
now extant - and so there _ought_ to be a photo of it. But looking online for
a while, I can turn up almost nothing about it! (I guess we should do a page
about it on the CHWiki...)
(Repeat my prior grump about how the AI Lab did all sorts of ground-breaking
stuff, because it was just 'tools', and not their main research focus, it's
hard to find out about a lot of it, e.g. the inter-ITS network file
system.)
But if you can find an image, even a low-res picture of that end of the AI Lab
machine room, we can tell what model the TV-11 is - early 11's had inteagrated
front panels, which are different for every model:
http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/PDP-11_Models.html
so you don't even need to be able to read anything to tell a /20 from a /10.
It was in a dual (I think - maybe triple, it's been a looooooong time :-)
rack which IIRC was along the side wall (i.e. the short building side) next to
the AI KA10 (which was sort of along the long wall, up in the corner).
I don't know if the XGP-11 code is still extant (my copy of the ITS filesystem
is offline right at the moment), but even if we look at the code, I'm not sure
we could tell; there are some _very minor_ programming differences between the
/20 and /10 (e.g. V bit on SWAB) - see the table at thd end of the PDP-11
Architecture Handbook - but I'd be aurprised if the code used any.
Surely there has to be _some_ picture of the machine room which shows it, even
if in the background.
> I did bring it up with TK at some point.
Try RG, too.
Noel
> From: Angelo Papenhoff
> Well the TV-11 is a tough question. I originally wrote an 11/05 emulator
> because some document said it was an 11/10 (which is the same thing).
> But other sources claimed it was an 11/20.
Hmmm. My memory was that it was an -11/05-10 (they are identical, except for
the paint on the front panel; and I don't recall it in enough detail to say),
but perhaps I'm wrong?
Or maybe it was an -11/20 early, and then it got replaced with an -11/10? (I
have a _very_ vague memory that the XGP's -11 was a /20, bur I wouldn't put
much weight on that.)
Moon or TK or someone might remember better.
Noel
Angelo Papenhoff wrote:
> Noel Chiappa wrote:
>> If the KE11 is needed to run some application on the -11/04, there
>> are KE11-B's (program compatible, but a single hex card) available,
>> ISTR. For emulation, something (SIMH?) supports it, since the TV -11
>> on ITS (now running in emulation,I'm pretty sure) uses it.
>
> Well the TV-11 is a tough question. I originally wrote an 11/05 emulator
> because some document said it was an 11/10 (which is the same thing).
> But other sources claimed it was an 11/20.
To clarify, the emulated TV-11 is *not* in any way based on SIMH. There
are more machines to potentially hook up to the 10-11 interface, but I'm
quite unsure if SIMH is the right vehicle for those.
But this is now clearly out of TUHS territory. CC to coff only.
"You'd be out of your mind to blindly run the shell on some anonymous shar
file..."
But but but all the cool kids tell you to install their new Javascript
framework with:
"curl https://rocketviagra.ru/distro/latest.sh | sudo /bin/bash"
Get offa my lawn.
On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 7:01 PM Dave Horsfall <dave(a)horsfall.org> wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Jul 2020, Random832 wrote:
>
> > For whatever it's worth, you can do the exact same thing as vi with sed
> > in this case: 1,/====/d
>
> It's been a while since I had to use it, but didn't "unshar" do this sort
> of thing, and in a safe manner too? You'd be out of your mind to blindly
> run the shell on some anonymous shar file...
>
> -- Dave
>
If you'll old enough to remember 'ADVENT' and been around the geeks when it
was a craze on the ARPA-net in the late 70s. You might find this article
which was in my feed last night:
https://onezero.medium.com/the-woman-who-inspired-one-of-the-first-hit-vide…
fun.
For those that did not, it was the world's first adventure game (no
graphics, just solving a series of puzzles while wandering through a
cave). It was originally written in Fortran-IV for the PDP-10/20 with a
small assembler assist to handle RAD50 for the input. [FYI: MIT'S Haystack
observatory is about 2 miles as the crow flies from my house on the top
of hill next over, in the town next to mine, Westford. Groton, MA is the
town after that].
This article is an interesting read (about 20 mins) with stuff I
never knew. I knew a divorced Will Crowthers worked at BBN and wrote the
game Adventure for his daughters to play when they visited him. I also
knew that he had been a caver and that the cave in the game was modeled
after Kentucky's Mammoth Caves. I did not know until a few years ago,
[from a friend of my wife's, Madeliene Needles] that at some time they were
living in Groton (because Crothers' ex-wife was working at Haystack with
Madeliene for a while). As this article tells the story, it was Patricia
Crowthers who actually did the mapping work.
FWIW: As a fun factoid, today, the Stanford version is one of the tests
used by the old DEC and now the Intel Fortran-2018 compiler to verify that
the compiler can still compile fixed format FORTRAN-IV and ensure the
resulting program still works. And of course, 'packrat Clem;' my own
'advent' map is in my filing cabinet in the basement. Written on the back
of '132 column green bar' computer paper of course.
Clem
For the folks that are interested, more good stuff including a number of
versions of the code can be found at: https://rickadams.org/adventure/
> Did the non-Unix people also pull pranks like the watertower?
Every year when our director, Arun Netravali of center 1135, went on
vacation,
Scott Knauer, a department head, would pull some kind of stunt. One year he
covered the carpeting in Arun's office with green astroturf, so it looked
like
half of a tennis court. Another year, he recruited many of us to blow up
balloons,
which he collected in Arun's office by aiming a huge fan in that direction,
while we pitched inflated balloons into the corridor. Scott, being Scott,
completely
topped off the balloons by lifting the ceiling tiles near the office door.
I recall
walking into Building 3 on the day Arun was scheduled to return and seeing
balloons struggling to escape from every open window of his office.
Building 3 lacked the large stairwells like the one that housed the Peter
face
made of magnets. But Scott compensated by projecting Arun's image along
a long corridor, and covering it with magnets, so Arun's face was visible on
a sidewall as you approached the end of the corridor.
I found the playful attitude at the Labs in general as an indicator of
out-of-the-box
thinking that a research organization thrives on.
As some of us remember this commercial. Predicting the future. Note that
Ethernet is a bus topology at this point.
Anyway, Allen Kay recently uploaded a copy of the wonderful and futurist
“Xerox Information Outlet TV commercial to YouTube.” A number of us think it
aired in the late 70s’, early ‘80s* i.e. *around the time of
DEC/Xerox/Intel “Blue Book” definition of Ethernet.
I understand the back story on the commercial is this:
The PARC guys did the drawing on the wall with a pale blue pencil so the
actor would see it, but the camera wouldn’t. All he had to do was trace the
lines.
Take 1. His delivery was perfect in but his drawing looked like a giant
smashed spider.
Take 2. Again, a flawless reading. This time his work of art was about
11”x17”. You had to squint to see it. The director yelled, cut! Then he
said to the actor, “Come here for a second.” He came forward. “Turn
around,” said the director. The actor did an about-face. They both stared
at the wall. Like talking to a 4-year old, the director said,
“Look...what... you... did.” “Whoops!” said the talent.
Take 3. The drawing was great but he flubbed the last. .. ah damn…
Take 4. Started out fine. We held our breath. Good...good...good.
“...and...Cut!! Perfect!” The director shouted.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2WgFpyL2Pk