February 2020 - COFF - www.tuhs.org

by Clem Cole

One last reply here, but CCing COFF where this thread really belongs... On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 12:34 PM Timothe Litt <litt(a)ieee.org> wrote: > OTOH, and probably more consistent with your experience, card equipment was > > almost unheard of when the DEC HW ran Unix... > You're probably right about that Tim, but DEC world was mostly TOPS/TENEX/ITS and UNIX. But you would think that since a huge usage of UNIX systems were as RJE for IBM gear at AT&T. In fact, that was one of the 'justifications' if PWB. I'm thinking of the machine rooms I saw in MH, WH and IH, much less DEC, Tektronix or my university time. It's funny, I do remember a lot of work to emulate card images and arguments between the proper character set conversions, but I just don't remember seeing actual card readers or punches on the PDP-11s, only on the IBM, Univac and CDC systems. As other people have pointed out, I'm sure they must have been around, but my world did not have them.

4 years, 2 months

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Re: [COFF] [Simh] Of DEC and cards

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: Clem Cole > I just don't remember seeing actual card readers or punches on the > PDP-11s I'm not sure DEC _had_ a card punch for the PDP11's. Readers, yes, the CR11: https://gunkies.org/wiki/CR11_Card_Readers but I don't think they had a punch (although there was one for the PDP-10 family, the CP10). I think the CR11 must have been _relatively_ common, based on how many readers and CR11 controller cards survive. Maybe not in computer science installations, though... :-) Noel

4 years, 2 months

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Video service on FreeBSD (was: Also, a video service)

by Greg 'groggy' Lehey

On Sunday, 9 February 2020 at 22:09:47 -0800, jason-tuhs(a)shalott.net wrote: > >>> All, I've also set this up to try out for the video chats: >>> https://meet.tuhs.org/COFF >>> Password to join is "unix" at the moment. > >> Just tried it out. On FreeBSD I get a blank grey screen. I could >> only get something more on a Microsoft box, not quite what I'd want to >> do. Is there some trick? > > * Install /usr/ports/net-im/jitsi. (Comment out the BROKEN line from the > Makefile and "make install" should work as usual; the source can actually > be fetched just fine...) In fact, the package was indeed unfetchable, but the ports collection had a cached version, which is what you got. But now I've brought it up to date (only 2 years old rather than 4). > * kldload cuse > > * Run firefox and surf to that URL. I haven't found that necessary. In fact, installing jitsi doesn't seem to be necessary. All you need is a more recent browser than the antiques I was running. Greg -- Sent from my desktop computer. Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA

4 years, 2 months

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Also, a video service

by Warren Toomey

All, I've also set this up to try out for the video chats: https://meet.tuhs.org/COFF Password to join is "unix" at the moment. I just want to test it to confirm that it works; I'll be heading out the door to go to the shops soon. Cheers, Warren

4 years, 2 months

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Re: [COFF] [TUHS] V9 shell [was Re: Warner's Early Unix Presentation]

by Steffen Nurpmeso

Jon Steinhart wrote in <202002120012.01C0CpEC3910426(a)darkstar.fourwinds.com>: |Steffen Nurpmeso writes: |> Of course you are right, you will likely need to focus your mind, |> and that requires an intellectual context, knowledge, to base upon. | |Interesting that you mention this as I'm about to leave for a multi-day |advanced yoga workshop. One of the things that I like about yoga is that Then i wish you a good time, and deep breath! |you do have to learn to focus your mind, and it's amazingly difficult to |be focused on something as seemingly simple as standing up straight. I |don't think that it's reasonable to expect people to be able to focus |without training. Can you imagine if a computer tried to follow all of |your fleeting thoughts? I feel clearly overrated. The last time i had such fleeting was i know when, no good, i "collapsed with overflow" like John Falkens computer in Wargames. But i have the impression that "the only winning move is not to play" is not very hip. |In some respects, this takes me back to the early days of speech recogni\ |tion. |I remember people enthusiastically telling me how it would solve the \ |problem |of repetitive stress injuries. They were surprised when I pointed out that |most people who use their voice in their work actually take vocal training; |RSIs are not uncommon among performers. | |So really, what problem are we trying to solve here? I would claim \ |that the |problem is signal-to-noise ratio degradation that's a result of too many |people "learning to code" who have never learned to think. Much like \ |I feel |that it became harder to find good music when MIDI was invented because \ |there |was all of a sudden a lot more noise masquerading as music. I am chewing on that one. You can be lucky to have lived in times with great classical music artists as well as a tremendous flurry of styles, ideas etc. otherwise. In the 60s and 70s and even the first half of the 80s so much has happened. Not only in music. Just take psychological treatment, before there was lobotomy and electrical shocks, and studied persons stood on these ground solid as rocks, but then it exploded. Today the situation is really bad. And that "everyone is an artist" was surely as naive as "everyone shall learn coding". But i have spend long hours in MIDI piano rolls and i think you are right. Unfortunately. |I'm reminded of a Usenix panel session that I moderated on the future \ |of window |systems a long time ago. Rob was on the panel as was some guy whose name I |can't remember from Silicon Graphics. The highlight of the presentation \ |was |when Robin asked the question "So, if I understand what the SGI person \ |is saying, |it doesn't matter how ugly your shirt is, you can always cover it up \ |with a nice |jacket...." While she was asking the question Rob anticipated the \ |rest of the |question and started unbuttoning his shirt. | |So maybe I'm just an old-school minimalist, but I think that the biggest \ |problem |that needs solving is good low-level abstractions that are simple and \ |work and |don't have to be papered over with layer upon layer on top of them. \ | I just find |myself without the patience to learn all of the magic incantations \ |of the package |of the week. I like that. --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt)

4 years, 2 months

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Re: [COFF] Fwd: Old and Tradition was [TUHS] V9 shell

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: Clem Cole > Noel's email has much wisdom. New is not necessarily better and old > fashioned is not always a bad thing. For those confused by the reference, it's to an email that didn't go to the whole list (I was not sure if people would be interested): >> One of my favourite sayings (original source unknown; I saw it in >> "Shockwave Rider"): "There are two kinds of fool. One says 'This is >> old, and therefore good'; the other says 'This is new, and therefore >> better'." Noel

4 years, 2 months

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Old and Tradition was [TUHS] V9 shell

by Clem Cole

moving to COFF On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 5:00 AM Rob Pike <robpike(a)gmail.com> wrote: > My general mood about the current standard way of nerd working is how > unimaginative and old-fashioned it feels. > ... > > But I'm a grumpy old man and getting far off topic. Warren should cry, > "enough!". > > -rob > @Rob - I hear you and I'm sure there is a solid amount of wisdom in your words. But I caution that just, because something is old-fashioned, does not necessarily make it wrong (much less bad). I ask you to take a look at the Archer statistics of code running in production (Archer large HPC site in Europe): http://archer.ac.uk/status/codes/ I think there are similar stats available for places like CERN, LRZ, and of the US labs, but I know of these so I point to them. Please note that Fortran is #1 (about 80%) followed by C @ about 10%, C++ @ 8%, Python @ 1% and all the others at 1%. Why is that? The math has not changed ... and open up any of those codes and what do you see: solving systems of differential equations with linear algebra. It's the same math my did by hand as a 'computer' in the 1950s. There is not 'tensor flows' or ML searches running SPARK in there. Sorry, Google/AWS et al. Nothing 'modern' and fresh -- just solid simple science being done by scientists who don't care about the computer or sexy new computer languages. IIRC, you trained as a physicist, I think you understand their thinking. *They care about getting their science done.* By the way, a related thought comes from a good friend of mine from college who used to be the Chief Metallurgist for the US Gov (NIST in Colorado). He's back in the private sector now (because he could not stomach current American politics), but he made an important observation/comment to me a couple of years ago. They have 60+ years of metallurgical data that has and his peeps have been using with known Fortran codes. If we gave him new versions of those analytical programs now in your favorite new HLL - pick one - your Go (which I love), C++ (which I loath), DPC++, Rust, Python - whatever, the scientists would have to reconfirm previous results. They are not going to do that. It's not economical. They 'know' how the data works, the types of errors they have, how the programs behave* etc*. So to me, the bottom line is just because it's old fashioned does not make it bad. I don't want to write an OS in Fortran-2018, but I can wrote a system that supports code compiled with my sexy new Fortran-2018 compiler. That is to say, the challenge for >>me<< is to build him a new supercomputer that can run those codes for him and not change what they are doing and have them scale to 1M nodes *etc*..

4 years, 2 months

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Re: [COFF] [TUHS] UNIBUS issues (Was: Spacewar at Bell Labs)

by William Pechter

Took this to coff since it's really hardware and non-Unix... On 2/8/20 1:59 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Dave Horsfall<dave(a)horsfall.org> > > > [ Getting into COFF territory, I think ] > > > > > In all fairness, the entire field didn't really appreciate the metastability > issue until the LINC guys at WUSTL did a big investigation of it, and then > started a big campaign to educate everyone about it - it wasn't DEC being > particularly clueless. > > > > Hey, if the DEC marketoids didn't want 3rd-party UNIBUS implementations > > then why was it published? > > Well, exactly - but it's useful to remember the differening situation for DEC > from 1970 (first PDP-11's) and later. > > In 1970 DEC was mostly selling to scientists/engineers, who wanted to hook up > to some lab equipment they'd built, and OEM's, who often wanted to use a mini > to control some value-added gear of their own devising. An open bus was really > necessary for those markets. Which is why the 1970 PDP-11/20 manual goes into > a lot of detail on how to interface to the PDP-11's UNIBUS. > > Later, of course, they were in a different business model. > > Noel My old Field Service memory is DEC never really went after Unibus interfaces and the spec was open. It was connections to the big old Massbus for things like tapes and disks that they kept closed and used patent protection on along with the SBI and the later Vax BI bus. DEC was the only maker of the BIIC chip from the VAXBI and the wouldn't sell it to competitors... Braegan (may be a spelling error) made interfaces to connect Calcomp hard disks to the PDP11's on a Massbus. IIRC they were shut down hard with legal action. I had a customer with a Unisys (formerly RCA) Spectra 70 system that had Braegan Calcomp drives with an Eatontown, NJ based Diva Disk controller. My tech school instructor pre-DEC career worked for Diva Disk as an engineer. Systems Industries, later (EMC), cloned the Massbus Adapter on the SBI Bus and didn't directly share the bus or controller with DEC sold disk drives so the SI-9400 showed up on DEC 11/780's (and I think they had an 11/70 controller as well. DEC, IIRC went after them about them using the SBI backplane interconnect. A Google search showed up this note about EMC Memory boards in Vaxes but also mentions DEC patent suits against people who used the Massbus. I don't remember that on Unibus devices like the controllers from Emulex and others. (Until they tried to deal with the Vax BI bus -- a DEC chip only or the MSCP disk subsystems.) Like you say, different time, different business model. Many inside DEC wanted them to OEM Sell Vax chips like they did PDP11 LSI/F11/J11 chips. There are a number of DECcies who feel that attitude came over with the influx of IBM'ers and others who came to DEC in the Vax period to sell into the Data Centers. They were really protecting the "family-er-crown jewels" back then to the company's detriment. Old Computerworld and Datamation adverts along with PR releases are what I find when searching, unfortunately. Here's a suit against EMC -- which cloned DEC memory products and interfaced to the SBI 11/78x bus. https://books.google.com/books?id=0sNDKMzgG8gC&pg=RA1-PA70&dq=DEC%2BMassbus… Along with the DIVA Computroller V there's another picture at the left of the page with a different emulating controller. Here's a Legal CDC9766 (I think) on a Plessey controller that plugged into an RH70 but didn't use the actual DEC Massbus (probably the CDC A and B SMD cables... (Storage Module Device? IIRC) https://books.google.com/books?id=-Nentjp6qSMC&pg=RA1-PA66&dq=eatontown,+nj… DEC even took the Emulex controllers on service contract in the late 80's. Bill

4 years, 2 months

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Idea: a regular video chat

by Warren Toomey

[x-posting to COFF] Idea: anybody interested in a regular video chat? I was thinking of one that progresses(*) through three different timezones (Asia/Aus/NZ, then the Americas, then Europe/Africa) so that everybody should be able to get to two of the three timezones. (* like a progressive dinner) 30-60 minutes each one, general old computing. Perhaps a guest speaker now and then with a short presentation. Perhaps a theme now and then. Perhaps just chew the fat, shoot the breeze as well. Platform: Zoom or I'd be happy to set up a private Jitsi instance. Something else? How often: perhaps weekly or fortnightly through the three timezones, so it would cycle back every three or six weeks. Comments, suggestions?! Cheers, Warren

4 years, 2 months

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BDS C (was: Screen editors)

by Greg 'groggy' Lehey

Moving to COFF to avoid the wrath of wkt. On Friday, 7 February 2020 at 18:54:33 -0500, Richard Salz wrote: > BDS C stood for Brain-Damaged Software, it was the work of one guy (Leor > Zolman). I think it was used to build the Mark of the Unicorn stuff > (MINCE, Mince is not complete emacs, and Scribble, a scribe clone). Correct. That's how I came in contact with it (and Emacs, for that matter). Greg -- Sent from my desktop computer. Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA

4 years, 2 months

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COFF February 2020