bqt at update.uu.se
Wed May 9 08:39:36 AEST 2018
On 08.05.18 04:00, jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) wrote:
> > From: Johnny Billquist
> > My point being that ... pages are invisible to the process segments are
> > very visible. And here we talk from a hardware point of view.
> So you're saying 'segmentation means instructions explicitly include segment
> numbers, and the address space is a two-dimensional array', or 'segmentation
> means pointers explicitly include segment numbers', or something like that?
Not really. I'm trying to understand your argument.
"BTW, this reminds me of another key differentiator between paging and
segments, which is that paging was originally _invisible_ to the user
for setting the total size of the process), whereas segmentation is
visible to the user."
And then you used MERT as an example of this.
My point then is, how is MERT any different from mmap() under Unix?
Would you then say that the paging is visible under Unix, meaning that
this is then segmentation?
In my view, you are talking about a software concept. And as such, it
has no bearing on whether a machine have pages or segments, as that is a
hardware thing and distinction, while anything done as a service by the
OS is a completely different, and independent question.
> I'm more interested in the semantics that are provided, not bits in
Well, if we talk semantics instead of the hardware, then you can just
say that any machine is segmented, and you can say that any machine is
have pages. Because I can certainly make it appear both ways from the
software point of view for applications running under an OS.
And I can definitely do that on a PDP-11. The OS can force pages to
always be 8K in size, and the OS can (as done by lots of OSes) provide a
mechanism that gives you something you call segments.
> It's true that with a large address space, one can sort of simulate
> segmentation. To me, machines which explicitly have segment numbers in
> instructions/pointers are one end of a spectrum of 'segmented machines', but
> that's not a strict requirement. I'm more concerned about how they are used,
> what the system/user gets.
So, again. Where does mmap() put you then?
And, just to point out the obvious, any machine with pages have a page
table, and the page table entry is selected based on the high bits of
the virtual address. Exactly the same as on the PDP-11. The only
difference is the number of pages, and the fact that the page on the
PDP-11 do not have a fixed length, but can be terminated earlier if wanted.
So, pages are explicitly numbered in pointers on any machine with pages.
> Similarly for paging - fixed sizes (or a small number of sizes) are part of
> the definition, but I'm more interested in how it's used - for demand loading,
> and to simplify main memory allocation purposes, etc.
I don't get it. So, in which way are you still saying that a PDP-11
don't have pages?
> >> the semantics available for - and_visible_ to - the user are
> >> constrained by the mechanisms of the underlying hardware.
> > That is not the same thing as being visible.
> It doesn't meet the definition above ('segment numbers in
> instructions/pointers'), no. But I don't accept that definition.
I'm trying to find out what your definition is. :-)
And if it is consistent and makes sense... :-)
> > All of this is so similar to mmap() that we could in fact be having this
> > exact discussion based on mmap() instead .. I don't see you claiming
> > that every machine use a segmented model
> mmap() (and similar file->address space mapping mechanisms, which a bunch of
> OS's have supported - TENEX/TOP-20, ITS, etc) are interesting, but to me,
> orthagonal - although it clearly needs support from memory management hardware.
Can you explain how mmap() is any different from the service provided by
> And one can add 'sharing memory between two processes' here, too; very similar
> _mechanisms_ to mmap(), but different goals. (Although I suppose two processes
> could map the same area of a file, and that would give them IPC mapping.)
That how a single copy of shared libraries happen under Unix.
Exactly what happens if you modify the memory depends on what flags you
give to mmap().
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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