Moving to COFF where this discussion really belongs ...

On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 2:51 PM Nemo Nusquam <> wrote:
On 06/07/20 11:26, Clem Cole wrote (in part):
> Neither language is used for anything in production in our world at this point.

They seem to be used in some worlds: and

That was probably not my clearest wording.  I did not mean to imply either Go or Rust was not being used by any imagination.

My point was that in SW development environments that I reside (HPC, some startups here in New England and the Bay Area, as well as Intel in general) -- Go and Rust both have smaller use cases compared to C and C++ (much less Python and Java for that matter).   And I know of really no 'money' project that relies yet on either.   That does not mean I know of no one using either; as I know of projects using both (including a couple of my own), but no one that had done anything production or deployed 'mission-critical' SW with one or the other.  Nor does that mean it has not happened, it just means I have not seen been exposed.

I also am saying that in my own personal opinion, I expect it too, in particular in Go in userspace code - possibly having a chance to push out Java and hopefully pushing out C++ a bit.

My response was to an earlier comment about C's popularity WRT to C++.   I answered with my experience and I widened it to suggest that maybe C++ was not the guaranteed incumbent as the winner for production.  What I did not say then, but I alluded too was the particularly since nothing in nearly 70 years has displaced Fortran, which >>is<< still the #1 language for production codes (as you saw with the Archer statistics I pointed out).

Reality time ...  Intel, IBM, et al, spend a lot of money making sure that there are >>production quality<< Fortran compilers easily available.   Today's modern society is from Weather prediction to energy, to param, chemistry, and physics.  As I have here and in other places, over my career, Fortran has paid me and my peeps salary.   It is the production enabler and without a solid answer to having a Fortran solution, you are unlikely to make too much progress, certainly in the HPC space.

Let me take this in a slightly different direction.  I tend to use the 'follow the money' as a way to root out what people care about.  Where firms spend money to create or purchase tools to help their staff?   The answer is in tools that give them return that they can measure.   So using that rule:  What programming languages have the largest ecosystems for tools that help find performance and operation issues?  Fortran, C, C++ have the largest that I know.   My guess would be Java and maybe JavaScript/PHP would be next, but I don't know of any. 

If I look at Intel, were do we spend money on the development tools:  C/C++ and Fortran (which all use a common backend) are #1.   Then we invest in other versions of the same (GCC/LLVM) for particularly things we care about.   After that, it's Python and used to be Java and maybe some JavaScript.   Why? because ensuring that those ecosystems are solid on devices that we make is good for us, even it means we help some of our competitors' devices also.    But our investment helps us and Fortran, C/C++ is where people use our devices (and our most profitable versions in particular), so it's our own best interest to make sure there are tools to bring out the best.

BTW:  I might suggest you take a peek at where other firms do the same thing, and I think you'll find the follow the money rule is helpful to understand what people care the most about.