[pups] Maximum PDP-11 executable size?

Edward Brocklesby ejb at leguin.org.uk
Fri Apr 20 06:51:24 AEST 2001


Hi,

I'm having problems compiling some large-ish programs on 2.11BSD, for example 
MH. Even when putting *everything* on overlays, I still get an error:

[ejb at styx] ~/mh-6.8.4.orig/uip > /bin/ld -i -X -o xforw /lib/crt0.o -Z forw.o 
-Z whatnowproc.o -Z whatnowsbr.o -Z sendsbr.o -Z annosbr.o -Z distsbr.o -Z 
../config/config.o -Z ../sbr/libmh.a -Z ../mts/libmts.a -Z ../zotnet/libzot.a 
-Z -lc -Z -lerrlst -Z ../config/version.o
ld: too big for type 431 (problem 2: tsize = 0, ovrnd = 8192, dtotal = 0)
[ejb at styx] ~/mh-6.8.4.orig/uip >

is there any way around this, or is MH just too big to fix on a PDP?

	-larne-

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From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com>
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Subject: Re: [pups] Maximum PDP-11 executable size?
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Hi -

> From: Edward Brocklesby <ejb at leguin.org.uk>
> I'm having problems compiling some large-ish programs on 2.11BSD, for example 
> MH. Even when putting *everything* on overlays, I still get an error:

	It has been eons and eons since I attempted MH and I can't remember
	if I gave up or finally got something to work (shows how long its
	been ;)).

> [ejb at styx] ~/mh-6.8.4.orig/uip > /bin/ld -i -X -o xforw /lib/crt0.o -Z forw.o 
> -Z whatnowproc.o -Z whatnowsbr.o -Z sendsbr.o -Z annosbr.o -Z distsbr.o -Z 
> ../config/config.o -Z ../sbr/libmh.a -Z ../mts/libmts.a -Z ../zotnet/libzot.a 
> -Z -lc -Z -lerrlst -Z ../config/version.o
> ld: too big for type 431 (problem 2: tsize = 0, ovrnd = 8192, dtotal = 0)
> [ejb at styx] ~/mh-6.8.4.orig/uip >

	Hmmm, I grep'd the current source to 'ld' and couldn't find the
	message "problem 2: ...".   I do remember that being present during
	the debugging of 'ld' when the long symbol names (the "string table"
	aka 4.3BSD a.out format) capability was being developed.

	That suggests that 'ld' might be out of date.

	The answer to the 'Maximum PDP-11 executable size?' question is fairly
	length and a bit involved ;).   Assuming split I/D:

	  Short answer: 120KB to 904KB

	Long answer:

	without overlays there is one 64KB code segment and one 56KB data
	segment giving 120KB for a non overlaid program.  In practice if a
	program hits 56KB out of 'ld' then there's no room for malloc() and
	the program may link but it won't run ;(

	For overlaid programs there is still but one 56KB data segment (the top
	8KB is for the stack) but now the code can be arranged differently:

	There is a maximum of 15 overlays and there can be no 'gaps' (zero
	length/empty overlays between populated overlays).

	BASE	OVERLAYSIZE	TOTALTEXT
	8KB	56KB * 15	840KB
	16KB	48KB * 15	736KB
	24KB	40KB * 15	624KB
	32KB	32KB * 15	512KB
	40KB	24KB * 15	400KB
	48KB	16KB * 15	288KB
	56KB	8KB  * 15	176KB

	In reality the kernel probably would choke on the first several cases,
	and even if it didn't that large of a program would cause severe 
	swapping.

	Most overlaid programs on the system ('vi' for example) use either the
	base=48KB or base=56KB layout.  I think 'kermit' might use the 40KB
	base segment.

	The "tsize" error would indicate that the code size summing had an
	overflow - that was a bug at one time and was later fixed, which 
	again suggests that the 'ld' is out dated somehow.

	If 'ld' was able to create 'xforw' try doing a "size xforw" on it
	and seeing how far it got - perhaps a clue can be gathered that
	way.

	You may need to usually terminate the overlay list with a -Y - I don't
	believe it's "required" though.

	-Z -lc -Z -lerrlst -Y ../config/version.o

> is there any way around this, or is MH just too big to fix on a PDP?

	Couple things to try.  Use 'size' on the .o (and/or .a) files to
	see how big things are - add them up and see if things start overflowing
	16 bits.   There was an overflow bug in ld's size computations - it was
	fixed by using a 'long' in a couple places to detect wraparound. 

	What version of 2.11 (should be in the first couple lines of /VERSION)
	are you using?   Sure feels like 'ld' is old and having problems that
	were fixed later on.

	Steven Schultz
	sms at to.gd-es.com


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From: Edward Brocklesby <ejb at leguin.org.uk>
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To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com>, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Maximum PDP-11 executable size?
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 01:48:19 +0100
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On Friday 20 April 2001 12:47 am, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> > [ejb at styx] ~/mh-6.8.4.orig/uip > /bin/ld -i -X -o xforw /lib/crt0.o -Z
> > forw.o -Z whatnowproc.o -Z whatnowsbr.o -Z sendsbr.o -Z annosbr.o -Z
> > distsbr.o -Z ../config/config.o -Z ../sbr/libmh.a -Z ../mts/libmts.a -Z
> > ../zotnet/libzot.a -Z -lc -Z -lerrlst -Z ../config/version.o
> > ld: too big for type 431 (problem 2: tsize = 0, ovrnd = 8192, dtotal = 0)
> > [ejb at styx] ~/mh-6.8.4.orig/uip >
>
> 	Hmmm, I grep'd the current source to 'ld' and couldn't find the
> 	message "problem 2: ...".   I do remember that being present during

That's something I added myself, to try to help with the problem..

> 	That suggests that 'ld' might be out of date.

/VERSION says:
Current Patch Level: 400
Date: January 24, 1998

That's what was on the PUPS FTP site..

> 	without overlays there is one 64KB code segment and one 56KB data
> 	segment giving 120KB for a non overlaid program.  In practice if a
> 	program hits 56KB out of 'ld' then there's no room for malloc() and
> 	the program may link but it won't run ;(
>
> 	For overlaid programs there is still but one 56KB data segment (the top
> 	8KB is for the stack) but now the code can be arranged differently:
>
> 	There is a maximum of 15 overlays and there can be no 'gaps' (zero
> 	length/empty overlays between populated overlays).
>
> 	BASE	OVERLAYSIZE	TOTALTEXT
> 	8KB	56KB * 15	840KB
> 	16KB	48KB * 15	736KB
> 	24KB	40KB * 15	624KB
> 	32KB	32KB * 15	512KB
> 	40KB	24KB * 15	400KB
> 	48KB	16KB * 15	288KB
> 	56KB	8KB  * 15	176KB
>
> 	In reality the kernel probably would choke on the first several cases,
> 	and even if it didn't that large of a program would cause severe
> 	swapping.
>
> 	Most overlaid programs on the system ('vi' for example) use either the
> 	base=48KB or base=56KB layout.  I think 'kermit' might use the 40KB
> 	base segment.

hm.. how do you specify the base segment size to ld? i don't see anything in 
the manual page. Just link enough code into the base that it becomes the 
right size?

> 	The "tsize" error would indicate that the code size summing had an
> 	overflow - that was a bug at one time and was later fixed, which
> 	again suggests that the 'ld' is out dated somehow.

possibly, i will look on the 2BSD patch archives now..

> 	If 'ld' was able to create 'xforw' try doing a "size xforw" on it
> 	and seeing how far it got - perhaps a clue can be gathered that
> 	way.

text    data    bss     dec     hex
27648   35860   32412   95920   176b0   total text: 83072
        overlays: 832,4352,2624,832,1920,29568,192,11008,4096

this particular link gave the error:
ld: too big for type 431 (problem 2: tsize = 0, ovrnd = -32768, dtotal = 0)

the negative ovrnd i find very strange- perhaps the wrapround bug?

> 	You may need to usually terminate the overlay list with a -Y - I don't
> 	believe it's "required" though.
>
> 	-Z -lc -Z -lerrlst -Y ../config/version.o

nope.. this doesn't seem to help

> > is there any way around this, or is MH just too big to fix on a PDP?
>
> 	Couple things to try.  Use 'size' on the .o (and/or .a) files to
> 	see how big things are - add them up and see if things start overflowing
> 	16 bits.   There was an overflow bug in ld's size computations - it was
> 	fixed by using a 'long' in a couple places to detect wraparound.

Well, considering that there's a couple of *large* libraries here..
-rw-r--r--  1 ejb        127074 Apr  9 14:47 ../zotnet/libzot.a
-rw-r--r--  1 ejb        102126 Apr  9 14:39 ../sbr/libmh.a

maybe that's the problem..

	-larne-

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Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 19:42:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com>
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To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Maximum PDP-11 executable size?
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Hi -

> > 	message "problem 2: ...".   I do remember that being present during
> 
> That's something I added myself, to try to help with the problem..

	Ok - whew, for a minute there I thought some of my debug code had
	leaked to the world ;)   That's the style of debug message I use <g>

> /VERSION says:
> Current Patch Level: 400
> Date: January 24, 1998

	Ouch - that is a bit old, there are updates thru 434 (I've 435 in
	midstream but haven't had time to finish it).

> That's what was on the PUPS FTP site..

	Ah.   Much becomes clear now.   That indeed was the version at one time.
	A year or so ago I and Warren coordinated an update to the 2.11 in PUPS
	The current PUPS version is 431 (only 3 updates since then - I've
	slowed down a lot over the last couple years).

> hm.. how do you specify the base segment size to ld? i don't see anything in 

	You don't.   At least not directly.  Anything outside an overlay
	goes into the base segment.  Thus anything before the first -Z goes
	into the base, and anything after the -Y goes into the base.

> the manual page. Just link enough code into the base that it becomes the 
> right size?

	That's basically the way to do it.  You can do "size" on the .o files
	first to get an idea what you want to put where but after that tuning
	the overlays to fit is a bit of an art.

> text    data    bss     dec     hex
> 27648   35860   32412   95920   176b0   total text: 83072
>         overlays: 832,4352,2624,832,1920,29568,192,11008,4096
	
	the single BIGGEST problem is that 'data + bss' exceeds not only the
	56KB limit but the total 64KB limit available to a process.  Looks
	like MH want 35860+32412 or 68272 bytes of D space.

	You might be able to get the code to fit - I'd pack the base to at
	least 40KB (more likely 48KB) and only have two or three overlays
	of 24KB or 16KB.

	THe data space problem means you're going to have to go and lower
	a lot of the buffer size limits.   Remember:  even if you do get
	the dataspace down to where the linker doesn't complain the program
	will almost certainly try to malloc() memory.  Thus the smaller the
	data+bss the better - and be prepared for malloc() failures

	One thing that can be done is to run 'xstr' over the sources and
	collect error message strings, printf strings, and so on into a common
	pool.   The other thing that can be done is create a strings file
	and extract as many as possible strings from the source modules into
	an external file.   Examples of doing this type of thing can be found
	in the source tree - 'lint' was one such program, 'sendmail' was another
	and kermit yet another (that's why there are 'sendmail.sr'  and
	'kermit5.sr' files on the system).

	In fact 'kermit' is a good example of squishing a monster program into
	a small machine.  Check out /usr/src/new/kermit5.188

> ld: too big for type 431 (problem 2: tsize = 0, ovrnd = -32768, dtotal = 0)
> 
> the negative ovrnd i find very strange- perhaps the wrapround bug?

	Hmmm, could be.  

> Well, considering that there's a couple of *large* libraries here..
> -rw-r--r--  1 ejb        127074 Apr  9 14:47 ../zotnet/libzot.a
> -rw-r--r--  1 ejb        102126 Apr  9 14:39 ../sbr/libmh.a
> 
> maybe that's the problem..

	The size of the .a doesn't accurately reflect the code+text+bss

	For one thing 'bss' takes up no room at all in an archive.   Don't
	forget that symbol tables and relocation information (as well as
	'ar' book keeping info) is present.   You can't rely on "ls -l"
	to say very much about an object file - only "size" can do that.
	"size libmh.a" will give a much better idea where the problem areas
	are.

	Steven Schultz
	sms at to.gd-es.com

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From: Edward Brocklesby <ejb at leguin.org.uk>
Organization: Leguin Network Services
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com>, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Maximum PDP-11 executable size?
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 05:12:58 +0100
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On Friday 20 April 2001  3:42 am, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> 	the single BIGGEST problem is that 'data + bss' exceeds not only the
> 	56KB limit but the total 64KB limit available to a process.  Looks
> 	like MH want 35860+32412 or 68272 bytes of D space.
>
> 	You might be able to get the code to fit - I'd pack the base to at
> 	least 40KB (more likely 48KB) and only have two or three overlays
> 	of 24KB or 16KB.

The problem appears to be `libmh.a', which alone has 30K text + 22K data + 
24K bss (77444 total).  Any way around this? I've tried all the combinations 
i can think of, to no avail..

> 	One thing that can be done is to run 'xstr' over the sources and
> 	collect error message strings, printf strings, and so on into a common
> 	pool.   The other thing that can be done is create a strings file
> 	and extract as many as possible strings from the source modules into
> 	an external file.   Examples of doing this type of thing can be found
> 	in the source tree - 'lint' was one such program, 'sendmail' was another
> 	and kermit yet another (that's why there are 'sendmail.sr'  and
> 	'kermit5.sr' files on the system).

hmm... a lot of work just to get MH working.

> > ld: too big for type 431 (problem 2: tsize = 0, ovrnd = -32768, dtotal =
> > 0)
> >
> > the negative ovrnd i find very strange- perhaps the wrapround bug?
>
> 	Hmmm, could be.

Could be i used the wrong printf format also..

> 	"size libmh.a" will give a much better idea where the problem areas
> 	are.

unfortunately, size doesn't appear to work on archive libraries.

	-larne-

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Subject: Re: [pups] Maximum PDP-11 executable size?
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> From: Edward Brocklesby <ejb at leguin.org.uk>
> The problem appears to be `libmh.a', which alone has 30K text + 22K data + 
> 24K bss (77444 total).  Any way around this? I've tried all the combinations 
> i can think of, to no avail..

	I think this would be a very good time to point out that 'data' is
	NOT overlaid, only the text is overlaid.   There is but 1 data segment
	and all data+bss goes into it.

	Text overlays work because there's a very careful dance done by the
	assembler and linker.   Functions use a 'thunk' (intermediate
	transfer vector) - thus when a program calls foo() it is really
	calling something like ~foo().  That thunk performs part of the 
	function prolog and then checks if the overlay mapping needs to changeoa	and if so makes a syscall to have the kernel twiddle the MMU.  Then
	the thunk calls foo+4 (skipping the part of the function prolog that
	has already been done).   Very elegant but completely unapplicable
	to data references (think on it - how is each and every pointer
	dereference to be checked to see if that data is mapped in?).
	
	In order to get the code to fit it would be necessary to extract
	all of the .o files from the .a file ("ar x libmh.a") and
	pack the .o files into overlays so they fit nicely.

> > 	One thing that can be done is to run 'xstr' over the sources and
> 
> hmm... a lot of work just to get MH working.

	Getting 32bit programs (and MH was done on a VAX or PDP10 (which is
	actually a 36 bit machine ;)) to run on a 16 bit machine is a lot of
	work.

	Since MH was written with a large address space in mind it will likely
	be necessary to go thru the code and find the "#define BUFSIZE 32000"
	or whatever and scale things back.   The odds are good that many 
	buffers are declared to be large just because it didn't matter on
	a big address space machine.   That's what had to be done for 'vi',
	'sendmail', 'kermit', etc.

> > 	"size libmh.a" will give a much better idea where the problem areas
> > 	are.
> 
> unfortunately, size doesn't appear to work on archive libraries.

	Oh.  Darn, I got my systems mixed up.  On some systems 'size' will
	work on .a files - something to put on the TODO pile (shouldn't be
	too hard since 'nm' works with .a files).

	Steven Schultz
	sms at moe.2bsd.com

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To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com>, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Maximum PDP-11 executable size?
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 06:26:25 +0100
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On Friday 20 April 2001  5:49 am, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> 	In order to get the code to fit it would be necessary to extract
> 	all of the .o files from the .a file ("ar x libmh.a") and
> 	pack the .o files into overlays so they fit nicely.

hmm.. i might have a look at doing this after i get xstr working.

> 	Getting 32bit programs (and MH was done on a VAX or PDP10 (which is
> 	actually a 36 bit machine ;)) to run on a 16 bit machine is a lot of
> 	work.

36bit with 9bit bytes, iirc .. fun :>

I'm currently converting libmh.a to use xstr, but I've come across a 
problem.. given the definition

static char  unixbuf[BUFSIZ] = "";

xstr generates the code

static char  unixbuf[BUFSIZ] = (&xstr[0]);

which the C compiler refuses to compile.  Any way around this?

	-larne-

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Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 09:37:28 +0200 (CEST)
From: Wolfgang Helbig <helbig at Informatik.BA-Stuttgart.DE>
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To: helbig at Informatik.BA-Stuttgart.DE, leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
Subject: Re: [pups] V6 and Supnik-simulator
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>  > If the following  README sounds interesting to you, maybe we can
>  > arrange to put a tar ball of it onto minnie?
>  > 
>  > I also prepared postscript files of the V6-documentation.
>  > Anyone interested?
>
>
> Yes, me in example :-). I wonder wether you could give them to dmr to be
> placed just at the side of the v7 docs, or wether you could put it
> into the archive?

I asked Dennis, and he told me, the best place for those directories
is the minnie archive. So I'd like to put it there, but don't know how to.

Wolfgang

>
> Regards -- Markus
>
>  > 
>  > Wolfgang
>  > 
>  > First README:
>  > UNIX V6 on the Supnik simulator:
>  > --------------------------------
>  > This directory contains tape files for the Supnik simulator and
>  > accompaning README files, which I produced when preparing an OS

[...]

>  > Second README:
>  > This directory contains some documentation as found on the UNIX V6
>  > Distribution tape. The files were converted to postscript with
>  > groff and the usage of the V6 ms-macro package. (See the print
>  > shell script)

[...]

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From: Markus E Leypold <leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
To: helbig at Informatik.BA-Stuttgart.DE
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	(message from Wolfgang Helbig on Fri, 20 Apr 2001 09:37:28 +0200
	(CEST))
Subject: Re: [pups] V6 and Supnik-simulator
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 > Delivered-To: leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
 > Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 09:37:28 +0200 (CEST)
 > From: Wolfgang Helbig <helbig at Informatik.BA-Stuttgart.DE>
 > Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
 > 
 > >  > If the following  README sounds interesting to you, maybe we can
 > >  > arrange to put a tar ball of it onto minnie?
 > >  > 
 > >  > I also prepared postscript files of the V6-documentation.
 > >  > Anyone interested?
 > >
 > >
 > > Yes, me in example :-). I wonder wether you could give them to dmr to be
 > > placed just at the side of the v7 docs, or wether you could put it
 > > into the archive?
 > 
 > I asked Dennis, and he told me, the best place for those directories
 > is the minnie archive. So I'd like to put it there, but don't know how to.

Well -- send a mail to warren k tomey (wkt at .... -- you'll find him in
the mailing list). He has been building the archive and might tell
you, how to transfer the files. Since PUPS-archive has an incoming
directory, I think, it might be, that ftp-'put' to incoming will
work. Warren or some other archive maintainer can pick it from there,
and place it in the proper directories.

Ask Warren. He is the one who should know.

Regards -- Markus

PS: Somehow I know your name. You haven't written a book by chance?




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Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:51:19 +0200 (CEST)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se>
To: Edward Brocklesby <ejb at leguin.org.uk>
cc: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com>, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Maximum PDP-11 executable size?
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On Fri, 20 Apr 2001, Edward Brocklesby wrote:

> On Friday 20 April 2001  5:49 am, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> > 	Getting 32bit programs (and MH was done on a VAX or PDP10 (which is
> > 	actually a 36 bit machine ;)) to run on a 16 bit machine is a lot of
> > 	work.
> 
> 36bit with 9bit bytes, iirc .. fun :>

Actually, the PDP-10 have variable byte size. Anything from 1 to 36
bits. Lazy people went with 9 bit bytes, while size-aware people used 7
bit bytes. And then you have SIXBIT...

	/Department for worthless knowledge. :-)
	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


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To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com>
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Maximum PDP-11 executable size?
References: <200104200242.f3K2gsf23361 at moe.2bsd.com>
From: Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih at Hamartun.Priv.NO>
Date: 20 Apr 2001 20:23:51 +0200
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"Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com> writes:

> > Current Patch Level: 400
> > Date: January 24, 1998
> 
> 	Ouch - that is a bit old, there are updates thru 434 (I've 435 in
> 	midstream but haven't had time to finish it).

You mean 435/436: patch 435 was released on February 7th, 2001.  :-)

-tih
-- 
Popularity is the hallmark of mediocrity.  --Niles Crane, "Frasier"



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