Sun release source code for Solaris 8

Greg Lehey grog at lemis.com
Thu Jan 27 10:33:21 AEST 2000


Sun's releasing the source code to Solaris.  Take a look at
http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/source/index.html for more
details.

The conditions look rather like the SCO ancient UNIX licences, but
it's *cheaper* ($75, which includes deliverables from Sun).  Warren,
is this ammunition to lobby SCO to drop the prices of Ancient UNIX
licenses?

Greg
--
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From: Mirian Crzig Lennox <lennox at alcita.com>
To: UNIX Heritage Society <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8
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Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com> writes:
> 
> The conditions look rather like the SCO ancient UNIX licences, but
> it's *cheaper* ($75, which includes deliverables from Sun).  Warren,
> is this ammunition to lobby SCO to drop the prices of Ancient UNIX
> licenses?

After looking at the site, it seems as though Sun is trying to prevent
licence holders from sharing code with other licence holders.  If this
is true, it would certainly make the Solaris licence less desirable to
hobbyists than the ancient UNIX licence, unfortunately.

--Mirian

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From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg at begemot.org>
To: Mirian Crzig Lennox <lennox at alcita.com>
Cc: UNIX Heritage Society <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8
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On Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 08:00:57PM -0500, Mirian Crzig Lennox wrote:
> Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com> writes:
> > 
> > The conditions look rather like the SCO ancient UNIX licences, but
> > it's *cheaper* ($75, which includes deliverables from Sun).  Warren,
> > is this ammunition to lobby SCO to drop the prices of Ancient UNIX
> > licenses?
> 
> After looking at the site, it seems as though Sun is trying to prevent
> licence holders from sharing code with other licence holders.  If this
> is true, it would certainly make the Solaris licence less desirable to
> hobbyists than the ancient UNIX licence, unfortunately.

You're right, as long as patches do contain portions of Solaris.
Everything that does so has to funnel trough Sun first, this can
be done by putting it onto their secure server. The restriction
is that you can't share it freely, everything must be visible to
Sun. This is slightly different from the original educational
license, which allowed sharing with peers bound by the same
license conditions.

I think, popularity of Solaris might rather be restricted by its
performance. I have run Solaris x86 on my desktop for a while for
evaluation purposes. I don't think you could tune it easily to
become as fast as a regular Linux or *BSD system. Apart from
that, it certainly is the dinosaur solution of the decade.

	Joerg
-- 
Joerg B. Micheel			Email: <joerg at begemot.org>
Begemot Computer Associates		Phone: +64 7 8562148
40 Masters Avenue, Hillcrest		Fax:   +64 7 8562148
Hamilton, New Zealand			Pager: +64 868 38222

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From: "emanuel stiebler" <emu at ecubics.com>
To: "Mirian Crzig Lennox" <lennox at alcita.com>,
        "UNIX Heritage Society" <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
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Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 18:28:28 -0700
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---- Original Message -----
From: Mirian Crzig Lennox <lennox at alcita.com>
To: UNIX Heritage Society <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2000 18:00
Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8


> Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com> writes:
> >
> > The conditions look rather like the SCO ancient UNIX licences, but
> > it's *cheaper* ($75, which includes deliverables from Sun).  Warren,
> > is this ammunition to lobby SCO to drop the prices of Ancient UNIX
> > licenses?
>
> After looking at the site, it seems as though Sun is trying to prevent
> licence holders from sharing code with other licence holders.  If this
> is true, it would certainly make the Solaris licence less desirable to
> hobbyists than the ancient UNIX licence, unfortunately.

They don't "prevent" it, it seems that it is always steered by/at SUN.

>From the Webpage:

> If you want to make your source code modifications available to other
Solaris
> source code licensees, you can do so by passing the changes back to Sun,
and
> Sun will then post them to a secure website that you and other registered
users
> may access.

cheers,
emanuel



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> From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg at begemot.org>
> I think, popularity of Solaris might rather be restricted by its
> performance. I have run Solaris x86 on my desktop for a while for

	Agreed.  I have run Solaris (only up thru 2.6 though) in its
	"native" environment (Sun hardware) and even there the performance
	is not anything one would write home about.  The difference between
	SunOS 4.1.x and Solaris 2.x is dramatic in favor on the older leaner
	system. 

	I have not run Solarix x86 though but have heard from others (before
	this) that its performance is quite a bit less than a BSD* system.

	Steven Schultz
	sms at moe.2bsd.com

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From: Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com>
To: Mirian Crzig Lennox <lennox at alcita.com>
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Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8
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On Wednesday, 26 January 2000 at 20:00:57 -0500, Mirian Crzig Lennox wrote:
> Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com> writes:
>>
>> The conditions look rather like the SCO ancient UNIX licences, but
>> it's *cheaper* ($75, which includes deliverables from Sun).  Warren,
>> is this ammunition to lobby SCO to drop the prices of Ancient UNIX
>> licenses?
>
> After looking at the site, it seems as though Sun is trying to
> prevent licence holders from sharing code with other licence
> holders.

I'm not 100% sure what they mean here.  Nobody can stop you
distributing software you wrote as long as it doesn't contain
proprietary Sun code.  You could do that with diffs.

> If this is true, it would certainly make the Solaris licence less
> desirable to hobbyists than the ancient UNIX licence, unfortunately.

I think it is anyway.  For hobby purposes, I'd much rather use either
4.4BSD (for modern usage) or one of the old UNIXes.

Greg
--
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From: Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com>
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8
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On Wednesday, 26 January 2000 at 17:42:54 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
>> From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg at begemot.org>
>> I think, popularity of Solaris might rather be restricted by its
>> performance. I have run Solaris x86 on my desktop for a while for
>
> 	Agreed.  I have run Solaris (only up thru 2.6 though) in its
> 	"native" environment (Sun hardware) and even there the performance
> 	is not anything one would write home about.  The difference between
> 	SunOS 4.1.x and Solaris 2.x is dramatic in favor on the older leaner
> 	system.

That's my experience too, but it may not be typical.  For a large
system with a large number of processes (e.g. ftp server) the
comparison could be very different.

> 	I have not run Solarix x86 though but have heard from others (before
> 	this) that its performance is quite a bit less than a BSD* system.

Ditto.  I have a CD somewhere that I just couldn't be bothered
installing.

Greg
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Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8
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On Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 02:56:02PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote:
> On Wednesday, 26 January 2000 at 17:42:54 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> >> From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg at begemot.org>
> >> I think, popularity of Solaris might rather be restricted by its
> >> performance. I have run Solaris x86 on my desktop for a while for
> >
> > 	Agreed.  I have run Solaris (only up thru 2.6 though) in its
> > 	"native" environment (Sun hardware) and even there the performance
> > 	is not anything one would write home about.  The difference between
> > 	SunOS 4.1.x and Solaris 2.x is dramatic in favor on the older leaner
> > 	system.
> 
> That's my experience too, but it may not be typical.  For a large
> system with a large number of processes (e.g. ftp server) the
> comparison could be very different.

That would make quite an interesting test. How much does ftp.cdrom.com
gain by running FreeBSD instead of Solaris ?

	Joerg
-- 
Joerg B. Micheel			Email: <joerg at begemot.org>
Begemot Computer Associates		Phone: +64 7 8562148
40 Masters Avenue, Hillcrest		Fax:   +64 7 8562148
Hamilton, New Zealand			Pager: +64 868 38222

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From: Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com>
To: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg at begemot.org>
Cc: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com>, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au,
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Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8
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On Thursday, 27 January 2000 at 18:04:06 +1300, Joerg Micheel wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 02:56:02PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote:
>> On Wednesday, 26 January 2000 at 17:42:54 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
>>>> From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg at begemot.org>
>>>> I think, popularity of Solaris might rather be restricted by its
>>>> performance. I have run Solaris x86 on my desktop for a while for
>>>
>>> 	Agreed.  I have run Solaris (only up thru 2.6 though) in its
>>> 	"native" environment (Sun hardware) and even there the performance
>>> 	is not anything one would write home about.  The difference between
>>> 	SunOS 4.1.x and Solaris 2.x is dramatic in favor on the older leaner
>>> 	system.
>>
>> That's my experience too, but it may not be typical.  For a large
>> system with a large number of processes (e.g. ftp server) the
>> comparison could be very different.
>
> That would make quite an interesting test. How much does
> ftp.cdrom.com gain by running FreeBSD instead of Solaris ?

Good question.  My guess is that Solaris 2 just couldn't handle that
many connections, but it compete reasonably well with fewer
connections (say 1000).  I'll copy the FreeBSD chat people and see
what they think.

For -chat: Sun have announced their intention to release the source
code of Solaris [2.]8.  We're discussing what this means.  See
http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/source/ for more details.

Greg
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Message too convoluted to tell who actually wrote this....but i
believe Greg wrote the second group of lines....

>> That would make quite an interesting test. How much does
>> ftp.cdrom.com gain by running FreeBSD instead of Solaris ?
>
>Good question.  My guess is that Solaris 2 just couldn't handle that
>many connections, but it compete reasonably well with fewer
>connections (say 1000).  I'll copy the FreeBSD chat people and see
>what they think.

Interestingly, i noticed recently that the response time on usa.net
seemed much slower.  It appears consistently so, either by ppp
connection or by network/T1 line.  A few months ago, netcraft showed 
that they were running FreeBSD.  Guess what they are running
now? Yup... SOlaris.  I dropped them a line saying i noticed the speed
difference.

-=> jm <=-

"I've done questionable things, also extraordinary things....
Revel in your time!"


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Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 09:26:41 -0500
From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls at rek.tjls.com>
To: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg at begemot.org>
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8
Message-ID: <20000127092641.A16017 at rek.tjls.com>
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References: <200001270142.RAA00523 at moe.2bsd.com> <20000127145602.P53307 at freebie.lemis.com> <20000127180406.A574 at begemot.org>
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On Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 06:04:06PM +1300, Joerg B. Micheel wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 02:56:02PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote:
> > On Wednesday, 26 January 2000 at 17:42:54 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> > >> From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg at begemot.org>
> > >> I think, popularity of Solaris might rather be restricted by its
> > >> performance. I have run Solaris x86 on my desktop for a while for
> > >
> > > 	Agreed.  I have run Solaris (only up thru 2.6 though) in its
> > > 	"native" environment (Sun hardware) and even there the performance
> > > 	is not anything one would write home about.  The difference between
> > > 	SunOS 4.1.x and Solaris 2.x is dramatic in favor on the older leaner
> > > 	system.
> > 
> > That's my experience too, but it may not be typical.  For a large
> > system with a large number of processes (e.g. ftp server) the
> > comparison could be very different.
> 
> That would make quite an interesting test. How much does ftp.cdrom.com
> gain by running FreeBSD instead of Solaris ?

How can anyone know that it gains anything at all?  To begin with, it's
never *run* Solaris, so there's no way to draw any kind of meaningful
comparison.

The dirty little secret of Linux and *BSD is that their ascendance has
been tightly coupled to Sun's utter inability to build fast, cheap
uniprocessor machines.  Any way you slice it, a single-processor top-of-
the-line x86 box is just going to be a *lot* faster and cheaper than
Sun's entry-level multiprocessor.  The great gamble they made was to
turn their kernel into a highly-multithreaded thing of beauty -- but
that *has* to cost some (even some small) amount of uniprocessor
performance, and since they can't build cheap multiprocesors that are
as fast as the high end of the commodity uniprocessor x86 boxes,
for a lot of applications they lose.

Even on a 2- or 4- processor machine, Solaris is demonstrably far
faster than *BSD or Linux for many workloads.  But you can buy a
single-processor x86 that's cheaper than Sun's 2- or 4- processor
box now, which is why people run Linux or FreeBSD or NetBSD.  There
is still a point at which the only way to get enough performance is
to add more processors, and at that point Solaris still wins, and
will for the forseeable (by me, at least) future.

-- 
Thor Lancelot Simon	                                      tls at rek.tjls.com
	"And where do all these highways go, now that we are free?"

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From: "emanuel stiebler" <emu at ecubics.com>
To: <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
References: <200001270142.RAA00523 at moe.2bsd.com> <20000127145602.P53307 at freebie.lemis.com> <20000127180406.A574 at begemot.org> <20000127092641.A16017 at rek.tjls.com>
Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 08:49:19 -0700
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----- Original Message -----
From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls at rek.tjls.com>
To: Joerg B. Micheel <joerg at begemot.org>
Cc: <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 07:26
Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8


> The dirty little secret of Linux and *BSD is that their ascendance has
> been tightly coupled to Sun's utter inability to build fast, cheap
> uniprocessor machines.  Any way you slice it, a single-processor top-of-
> the-line x86 box is just going to be a *lot* faster and cheaper than
> Sun's entry-level multiprocessor.  The great gamble they made was to
> turn their kernel into a highly-multithreaded thing of beauty -- but
> that *has* to cost some (even some small) amount of uniprocessor
> performance, and since they can't build cheap multiprocesors that are
> as fast as the high end of the commodity uniprocessor x86 boxes,
> for a lot of applications they lose.
>
> Even on a 2- or 4- processor machine, Solaris is demonstrably far
> faster than *BSD or Linux for many workloads.  But you can buy a
> single-processor x86 that's cheaper than Sun's 2- or 4- processor
> box now, which is why people run Linux or FreeBSD or NetBSD.  There
> is still a point at which the only way to get enough performance is
> to add more processors, and at that point Solaris still wins, and
> will for the forseeable (by me, at least) future.

Another thing to mention is also, that it is very easy to build your own
kernel, exctly for your needs in Linux or *BSD. (removing all
emulations/compatibility modes, ...) so you get a nice small/fast kernel
excactly for your type of machine & workload.

Don't think it's so easy on a sun.

cheers,
emanuel



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From: Mirian Crzig Lennox <lennox at alcita.com>
To: UNIX Heritage Society <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8
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Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com> writes:
> > After looking at the site, it seems as though Sun is trying to
> > prevent licence holders from sharing code with other licence
> > holders.
> 
> I'm not 100% sure what they mean here.  Nobody can stop you
> distributing software you wrote as long as it doesn't contain
> proprietary Sun code.  You could do that with diffs.

Can I really?  Any diffs are necessarily going to contain some of the
original proprietary code.  It depends on how aggressive Sun's lawyers
are going to be about preventing any co-operative development of
Solaris which is not mediated by Sun.  From their website, it seems
that Sun wants to be firmly in control of that process.

This is in contrast to the Ancient UNIX licence, where it's my
impression that SCO really doesn't care what you do with UNIX so long
as you don't share code with unlicensed people.

> > If this is true, it would certainly make the Solaris licence less
> > desirable to hobbyists than the ancient UNIX licence, unfortunately.
> 
> I think it is anyway.  For hobby purposes, I'd much rather use either
> 4.4BSD (for modern usage) or one of the old UNIXes.

For practical purposes I agree, although I'm intrigued enough by the
extremely modular design of Solaris to think it might be fun to spend
some time playing with.

-- 
Mirian Crzig Lennox                                Systems Anarchist
              Invest in America -- buy a Congressman!



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