PUPS

Warren Toomey wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au
Mon Aug 11 13:22:17 AEST 1997


In article by Mark D. Roth:
> Warren,
> 
> I have a PDP-11/03-L at home that I rescued from Bell+Howell Corp and
> know next to nothing about.  I'm looking for any info I might be able
> to find on how to get this machine running, as well as any info I
> might find about getting a Unix implementation for it.

I don't think you'll get Unix running on an /03, I just searched thru the
paper archives here and I've seen references to /23's, /34's, 40's on up,
but not for /03's. I'd suspect that the /03 doesn't have the memory management
(nor the memory) to get Unix running.

> I saw reference to a mailing list on the webpage, but no information
> on how to join.  What can you tell me?

Mark, I'll add you to the list, and bounce this there as well; someone
with more knowledge of -11 hardware should be able to set us both straight
with regards to 11/03's.

Cheers,
	Warren

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Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 20:53:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199708110353.UAA21891 at moe.2bsd.com>
To: roth at uiuc.edu, wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: PUPS
Cc: oldunix at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au

Warren, Mark -

> In article by Mark D. Roth:
> > I have a PDP-11/03-L at home that I rescued from Bell+Howell Corp and
> > know next to nothing about.  I'm looking for any info I might be able
> 
> I don't think you'll get Unix running on an /03, I just searched thru the

	Quite correct.

> paper archives here and I've seen references to /23's, /34's, 40's on up,
> but not for /03's. I'd suspect that the /03 doesn't have the memory management
> (nor the memory) to get Unix running.

	Warren - you're absolutely right.  The 11/03 has a maximum memory
	(most were not fully populated) of 56kbytes and _no_ memory
	management.  Any Unix (since the initial one on the PDP-7) requires
	at least two memory management states: kernel and user.  Much later
	versions can take advantage of the 3rd mode (supervisor).

	Smallest machine I ever ran Unix on was an 11/23 (the development
	was done on a 11/70 because various programs were too large to run
	on a non split I/D machine such as the 11/23) and it was, shall we 
	say, "interesting".  Just enough memory (max of 248kb) to run one or 
	two user processes at a time (we had a rather large kernel and some
	homebrew communications drivers) - you could get logged in and then 
	each time you typed a command the shell would get swapped out to run 
	your command ;).

> Mark, I'll add you to the list, and bounce this there as well; someone
> with more knowledge of -11 hardware should be able to set us both straight
> with regards to 11/03's.

	You got it right - nothing to set straight.  

	Steven Schultz


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References: <199708062322.JAA03135 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from "Warren
 Toomey" at Aug 7, 97 09:22:07 am
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Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 16:49:53 +0100
To: Michael Engel <engel at numerik.math.uni-siegen.de>
From: George Coulouris <George.Coulouris at dcs.qmw.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: George's PDP Tape in UK
Cc: Tim Bradshaw <tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk>, wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey),
        oldunix at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au

Dear Michael,

Many thanks for your offer. Sorry for the delay in replying. If you are
still willing I would like to take up your offer. If you will mail me your
physical mail address, I'll send you the tape. As far as I can remember the
tape is a UNIX tar archive, that should be readable on the VMS machine and
you could give the files back to me by ftp.

(I'm taking up your offer rather than Tim Bradshaw's because you seem to
have had more recent success with reading old tapes.

Thanks again,

George

At 9:39 am +0100 7/8/97, Michael Engel wrote:
 * >
 * We have a TU81+ 9 track tape connected to a VMS Alpha here. So, if you send
 * me the tape, I will try to read it. Worked perfectly some months ago for a
 * 10 yr. old tape from a DECsystem 10 ...
 *
At 3:22 pm +0100 7/8/97, Tim Bradshaw wrote:

 *
 * We have old-tape-reading-technology, so we could give it a try.  No
 * promises at all though (I have to turn the drive back on &c, and it's
 * not altogether clear that it will work, though it did last time I
 * tried it), asnd it will take me ages to get around to it, being very
 * inefficient...


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
George F. Coulouris                         | Computer Science Dept
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199708270045.KAA03801 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Latest PDP-11 UNIX email from SCO
To: oldunix at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 10:45:58 +1000 (EST)
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All,
	Here is the latest email from SCO with regards to PDP-11 UNIX
source licenses. I'll add one comment at the bottom.

Please treat this as YOUR EYES ONLY. I haven't got permission from Dion
to forward this on (yet), but I think that more pairs of eyes than just
mine need to have a look at it for any problems.

----- Forwarded message from Dion -----

  From: Dion <dionj at sco.COM>
  X-Mailer: SCO OpenServer Mail Release 5.0
  To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
  Subject: Re: Touching Base!
  Date: Tue, 26 Aug 97 12:45:07 PDT

Warren,

Good progress.  We have some positive consensus developing.
Here is the proposed license terms (roughly, not fully legalized
yet).  Please let me know if you see any problems with this
proposal:


Here are the terms that I think make sense:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
License terms:
    
* the license covers the entire distributions (source code, binaries and
  documentation) of the following versions of UNIX:
            o 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th Edition UNIX
            o 32V UNIX
            o PWB/UNIX
            o those portions of all 2BSD releases which are derived from UNIX
              source code

* licensees have these rights wrt the binaries and source code of the above
  versions of UNIX:

use
store
reproduce
edit
adapt
enchance
improve
otherwise modify
transmit electronically
repackage

* These rights are licensed to noncommercial users.  The source may
  not be sold nor used to develop commercial versions of UNIX.

* licensees have the right to install UNIX binaries on PDP-11 hardware and
  PDP-11 emulating software

* licensees have the right to allow noncommercial use the UNIX binaries on
  systems for which the product is licensed.
    
   (Note that the latter is already permitted, given SCO's binary license
    agreement for 5th, 6th and 7th Edition UNIX. We would also be happy with the
    following conditions imposed in the source code and binary license for
    PDP-11 UNIXes)
    
* license is not transferable.

* source code covered by the license cannot be distributed or disclosed
  to people not covered by the license.  The licensees are permitted to
  collaborate on modifications and mutually share their modifications.

* SCO is not required to provide copies of any source code, binaries or
  documentation with the source code and binary license for PDP-11 UNIXes

License Fee:  SCO charges a one-time license fee of $100 per licensee,
for a site license for one organization.

We may, at some future time, provide source distributions (if/when
we can find the sources), but this is not committed.  We know that
the licensees have, between them, most of the needed sources.

----- End of forwarded message from Dion -----

My comment. The only thing I want to change is:

	* licensees have the right to install UNIX binaries on PDP-11 hardware
	  and PDP-11 emulating software

becomes

	* licensees have the right to install UNIX software on PDP-11 hardware
	  and PDP-11 emulating software

This allows us to install source so as to modify it or to rebuild kernels etc.

I briefly raised the issue of source distribution (SCO or me? FTP or CD-ROM?),
but I suggested that we leave it until the licenses go on sale.

Please email your comments on this to the mailing list
(oldunix at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au).

Thanks,
	Warren	wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au

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From: Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199708270551.PAA00316 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Latest PDP-11 UNIX email from SCO
To: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:51:20 +1000 (EST)
Cc: oldunix at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <199708270539.WAA16297 at moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Aug 26, 97 10:39:11 pm"
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
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In article by Steven M. Schultz:
> 	It looks to me that SCO has granted "us" every single thing we were
> 	asking for.

I've thought of a few more changes:

In the wording from SCO, the status of `documentation' is unclear. The
following should clear this up:

  + use the term software == `source, binaries and documentation' in many
    places where this is appropriate.

  + use the term `source' only where they want to restrict to licensees.



  + also, don't disclose `source' to people not covered by the SCO license
    or by existing UNIX software licenses from Western Electric and AT&T.


Comments anybody?

	Warren

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From: Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199708290143.LAA03340 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Latest PDP-11 UNIX email from SCO
To: mcjones at pa.dec.com
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 11:43:09 +1000 (EST)
Cc: oldunix at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <9708281506.AA29078 at numbat05-an2.pa.dec.com> from "mcjones at pa.dec.com" at "Aug 28, 97 08:06:23 am"
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In article by mcjones at pa.dec.com:
> 
> > Maybe someone else can volunteer, if I organise the contents :-)
> 
> There's one here at my workplace.  I don't know how to use it myself.  
> I could probably get some help in burning one or two, but I don't 
> think it would be appropriate to burn dozens or hundreds.  How many 
> licensees do you anticipate?

There's 300 signatures on the petition. I'd hope that 1/2 of those
will buy licenses, and probably most would like the stuff in easy-to-use
form.

I know that Steven Schultz has access to a writer too (hint hint!).
I will probably buy another hard disk here for the PDP archive, and give
access to license holders.

I'd like to get users to suggest layout changes & what should be exploded
etc. so that we can burn a 650M CD image directly from the archive.

Currently, the archive is sitting at 250M, so there's room to explode
many of the distributions stored there.

We also need to sit down and catalogue this stuff so that it's not
just a collection of random tapes. I'm slowly doing this & have done
the most important stuff, see the Tapes/DETAILS file if you ftp in.
But more work needs to be done.

So hopefully, we can pass the archive (as a Rock Ridge image) to a few
volunteers to burn CD-R copies. Anybody in Europe who would volunteer?

Just an idea!

	Warren

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From: Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199708310241.MAA04803 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Unix CD-ROM archive burn
To: Kevin.Wright at VITREX.com (Kevin Wright)
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 12:41:29 +1000 (EST)
Cc: oldunix at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <B0620B9317B0D0119D3C0060976CE96418B8 at nt-main.vitrex.com> from Kevin Wright at "Aug 29, 97 09:24:27 am"
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In article by Kevin Wright:
> I could very possibly volunteer to do one.  I have access to my
> companies cdrom burner.
> 
> Subject change:
> I own a PDP-11/23+ for which I'm constantly searching the Internet for
> RT-11 and TSX+ documentation and software, as well as any other OS's
> such as Unix.  Do you have any such software/documentation in your
> archive of which you would be willing to allow me a copy?

Kevin, until you can buy a license from SCO (soon I hope), all I can
offer are the binaries for 6th & 7th Edition. If you have an RK05 or RL02,
then you can get disk images as part of Bob Supnik's PDP-11 emulator,
at ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/pub/PDP-11-sims/Supnik_2.3

(or a similar URL, I'm typing from memory).

If you don't have RK05 or RL02s, someone should be able to build
a suitable disk image for you. I think you'll need to go 6th Edition
as you have a /23.

	Warren

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From: pnt103 at ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 97 00:18:51
Message-ID: <swordfish.873069538 at ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk>
To: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Unix CD-ROM archive burn
Cc: oldunix at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au

Warren wrote:

: If you don't have RK05 or RL02s, someone should be able to build
: a suitable disk image for you. I think you'll need to go 6th Edition
: as you have a /23.

7th Edition runs fine on an 11/23 or 11/34, providing you build the
'small machine' version.  I've had 7th on my 11/23 with 256K and 2xRL02 for
years.

Pete



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From: Kevin Wright <Kevin.Wright at VITREX.com>
To: "'wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au'" <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: PDP-11 hardware liquidation
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 19:25:46 -0600
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1-SEP-97

As owner of a PDP-11/23+ system, I know how difficult it can be to find
hardware for older PDP-11's.
I'd like to inform you that I've found a terrific source in Utah for
used DEC hardware including PDP-11 related items.  This person has a
2400 sq ft warehouse (about 3 semi truck loads) quite literally brimming
with computer hardware which has been collected and stored over the past
10 years.  He is currently in the process of liquidating it at very,
very low prices.  Tons of miscellaneous computer equipment is available,
much of which was manufactured by DEC.  It would be impossible to list
even a fraction of what he has available, but he has told me that his
inventory includes approximately 1000 Q-Bus and Unibus boards, plus
peripheral devices such as disk and tape drives.  I've not been to the
warehouse in person yet , but I will be visiting the site in about 2
weeks time from now.

If interested, you should be aware that he is in the process of getting
rid of EVERYTHING!  It sounds like it will all be gone in the next 3 to
4 weeks.  

Opportunities like this very seldom come along, so please contact me via
email if you are interested in finding out more.  I'll be happy to
forward to you, any needed information that I can.

Please feel free to forward this notice to anyone you think might be
interested.


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From: Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199709030623.QAA07853 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: PUPS Mailing List - Now Majordomo
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:23:06 +1000 (EST)
Cc: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
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Precedence: bulk

All,
	I've just moved the PUPS (old PDP-11 Unix) mailing list over
to run under MajorDomo. I'm still learning MajorDomo, so there might be
some teething troubles.

The new list is called:

	pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au

Can you update any aliases that point to this list. I will keep the original
/etc/aliases mailing list	oldunix at cs.adfa.oz.au	around for a while
until I'm sure the new one works fine.

As with MajorDomo, you can send messages to get off the mailing list.

Please let me know of any problems.


Updates: SCO Petition, CD-R writers etc.
----------------------------------------

Ok, we're still chatting with SCO. I got a summary of internal mail which
shows that there are 2 sides in SCO, those who think it's a good idea (PR-wise
at least) and those who can't see the point & who think it's a can of worms.

I feel that the people on our side are winning. I've been trying to explain
the history of some of the UNIX flavours to their legal eagle, who must know
recent history only. I think we can iron things out.

Several people from Europe & the US said that they had access to a CD-R
writer, & could write CDs, if that became the distribution method for
passing on the PUPS archive.

I will probably go buy a new X-Gig disk to give the archive a proper FTP
home. I've come up with a new archive layout & will pass it on to you all
for comments. Anyway, it looks like progress is being made & we should be
able to buy personal UNIX licenses soon :-).

More updates to the list as things happen. Thanks for your suport!!

	Warren	wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au



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